GOLDA Girls
A podcast for Jewish women with a lot to say.
GOLDA founder Stephanie Butnick sits down with journalist Gabby Deutch, novelist Esther Chehebar, and Rabbi Diana Fersko each week to talk culture, community, identity, and the everyday moments shaping modern Jewish life.
GOLDA Girls
Galliano Gall with Rabbi Arielle Stein
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GOLDA founder Stephanie Butnick, journalist Gabby Deutch, novelist Esther Chehebar and Rabbi Diana Fersko talk deviated septums, Jewish nose jobs, and why “ENT” is an important Jewish acronym. Rabbi Arielle Stein, the high-fashion rabbi featured in Vogue, joins the group to discuss the controversial decision by the Met’s Costume Institute to honor disgraced fashion designer John Galliano.
Send us your Ask GOLDA questions at hi@goldaguide.com. You can also send us a voicenote; be sure to tell us who you are and where you’re calling from.
Good for the Jews picks:
Stephanie: Nova survivor and Israel’s 2025 Eurovision contestant Yuval Raphael’s performance of Od Yavo Shalom Aleinu with a gospel choir in Toronto this week.
Diana: Caffe Aronne’s new location in the Marlene Meyerson JCC Manhattan on the Upper West Side of Manhattan.
Gabby: Kiddush lunch after Shabbat services.
Esther: A recent parents’ tennis tournament in support of her children’s school. (She lost in the first round but remains positive about the concept.)
Upcoming events:
Tuesday, August 18 — Southampton, NY: Join GOLDA for a special kids Mini Mahj event at ColorPop Workshop’s Southampton studio. Beginners welcome! Ticket includes one adult + one child (6 and up); sign up here.
Thursday, September 17 — New York City: GOLDA founder Stephanie Butnick interviews Dr. Beth Ricanati at the launch event for her book The Braided Prescription: Seven Practices for Living Well from the Ancient Practice of Making Challah. 7 p.m. at The Strand Columbus; register here.
Find out about all of our upcoming events at goldaguide.com/p/events.
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Where you can find the GOLDA Girls:
Follow Gabby’s writing at jewishinsider.com/authors/gabby-deutch and subscribe to her Substack at gsdeutch.substack.com.
Sign up for Diana’s print newsletter, Modern Jewess, at modern-jewess.com, and buy her book, We Need to Talk About Antisemitism, at rabbidianafersko.com/books.
Get Esther’s novel Sisters of Fortune at bookshop.org/a/110357/9780593734544, and her children’s book I Share My Name, at bookshop.org/a/110357/9781532432187.
Buy Stephanie’s book, The Newish Jewish Encyclopedia, at bookshop.org/a/110357/9781579658939.
GOLDA Girls is a production of GOLDA Media. The show is executive produced by Ariel Shapiro and edited by POLDHU.
Sponsors:
GOLDA Girls is presented by Nu Reads, a new Jewish book subscription series curated by the Jewish Book Council that brings remarkable literature straight to your door. You can check out Stephanie’s interview with Nu Reads featured author Portia Elan about her new novel, Homebound, in the GOLDA Girls feed. Use code NuGolda at checkout for 15% off your subscription. Visit NuReads.org to get started today.
This week’s episode of GOLDA Girls is also brought to you by the Simchat Torah Challenge. For years, you’ve heard the familiar holiday melodies and prayers. But what if you could actually read along in Hebrew? Head to simchattorahchallenge.org/shema to sign up to get their free Hebrew reading crash course book and videos. You can also enter to win a Shema-inspired print created by Jewish artist Hannah Pearlman. Go to simchattorahchallenge.org/golda to sign up and enter to win.
Nu Reads
SPEAKER_01You know I love New Reads, the Jewish book subscription series that brings remarkable literature straight to your door. I love reading the books they pick, and I love getting to interview all the authors here on GoldenGirls. You can check out my chat with Portia Alan, whose novel Homebound is the most recent New Reads selection in our feed. With New Reads, you're getting books, of course, but you're also getting access to exclusive experiences with authors and a community built on a shared passion for Jewish storytelling, which is more important than ever. Newreads is offering Golda Girls listeners 15% off their subscription. Just use the code NewGolda, N-U-G-O-L-D-A at checkout. Visit Newreads.org. That's n-u-re-a-d-s.org to get started today. Welcome
Nose Jobs
SPEAKER_01to GoldaGirls, the podcast for Jewish women with a lot to say. I'm Stephanie Butnik, the founder of Golda, the Jewish Lifestyle Guide, and I am back here with all three of my co-hosts Rabbi Diana Fersco. Shalom. Journalist Gabby Deutsch. Hello. And at long last, we've reunited with novelist Esther Shahabar. So happy to be back. I'm happy to hear you because we benched you last week. We heard your voice and said, please don't come on this show. Are you okay now?
SPEAKER_00I am good. I was suffering from my annual summer respiratory distress that I've learned with multiple visits to my ENT last year before anyone gets concerned about me. Gabby, I know your mom was concerned about me, and I so appreciate that. At least someone's mom was concerned because mine wasn't. For the record, this was Jay's mom, who is a retired ENT. Oh, even and you know what? Shout out to Arlene. Shout out to Arlene. May book a telehealth visit. I kept getting scoped like down my throat, like September, October, November, because I guys, I literally had no voice for like four whole months. I couldn't even yell at my kids, which was like very disappointing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00How does that even work? It made our relationship better, maybe. But um, yeah, where they discovered that I have vocal nodules. So I I have a raspy voice, right? It's like it's its baseline is rasp. You do. It's one of the best things about you. We like it. It's so cute. Diana, are you being sarcastic? I love it. It's the best. I guess I'm just prone now with these nodules that I have. I'm just prone to like voice loss. And so I was at this party on Sunday with like a very aggressively loud DJ. And of course, I can't just like shut up and not talk and listen to the music. I have to like scream over it. And so I literally woke up the next day. I sent you guys a voice note and I was not hearable. And it lasted three days. And then I was like, oh, is this gonna be like a repeat of last summer where I just keep on like abusing my voice and then I just don't have a voice for three months? And thankfully, with the help of my vocal therapist, I'm in speech therapy now to learn how to retrain my voice basically. We do some exercises, I blow bubbles through a lot of straws, I take pauses when I read books to my kids. I'm sounding almost at a hundred right now.
SPEAKER_01You sound incredible.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
SPEAKER_01This is like that scene in Pitch Perfect where she has nodes. She gets nodes. It's like the worst thing that can possibly happen to them. Equally high stakes.
SPEAKER_00Equally high stakes, yeah. I was in a reddit hole, actually. And it was all these like singers and like Broadway actresses being like, what do we do about the nodes? Do you sing, Esther? Any singing? Any singing? Yes. Between me and my four Shire walls. No, no singing, thank God for everybody. Zero pitch in this house.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so my relationship with my ENT is one of the really most important relationships in my adult life. And I need to tell you this. I know I talk about unorthodox all the time, but this is one of the most surreal things that happened to me. I just was always getting sinus infections. Finally, I get routed to like the guy. I've scheduled a sinus surgery. And I say on the podcast, on unorthodox, I was like, guys, I'm off for like the next two weeks. I'm getting my sinuses fixed, basically. And one of my co-hosts said, like, okay, who's your doctor? And I was like, Dr. Prasad. They were expecting me to say some Jewish doctor's name. The line that was said was Prasad is the new Cohen. And we just like laughed about it. Literally did not think about it for one more second until I'm at Cornell and Dr. Prasad walks in. And at this point, I've met Dr. Prasad maybe two times, and he's about to put me out. He walks in and he goes, I heard Prasad is the new Cohen. And I'm like, what? He's like, I heard from several people this joke on your show. Anyway, Dr. Prasad is one of my favorite people in the world. So whoever's listening who knows him, actually, I'll see him next week because just for like a little checkup. This is a test for the reach. It turned out I had a deviated septum, which he fixed. It's kind of weirdly bitter. I look the same. And so when I was like coming to, I was like, what's the deal with the deviated septum thing with the nose job? And he was like, it's kind of like an insurance thing, I think.
SPEAKER_00Guys, I have so much to say about this. It's so funny. Like, of course, the unorthodox audience relayed this information. Of course, they see Dr. Prasad, right? Of course, those worlds collided. He's amazing. And I actually made this joke to you guys where I'm like, I feel like having vocal nodules is like very Jewish-coded. But I also just feel like, Stephanie, what you said, having this very close relationship with your ENT is also very Jewish coded.
SPEAKER_01It's not about the GI, it's about the ENT. Those are our letters here.
SPEAKER_00No, it's all about the blocked nasal passages and sleep apnea. Yeah, and the nodules. I too have fixed my deviated septum, and we could talk about the merits of that. I could count on one hand, like the amount of women in my life who did not go under the knife to fix their deviated septum. Is that wait, by the way, is that now euphemism? For a nose job? Yeah. No. There's the cosmetic part, and then there's the septum part. What it was when we were like growing up, when you hit that age of 16 where you're either gonna do the nose or not, it's like, oh, I'm just gonna fix my septum. Or it's like, I have to fix my septum. So I might as well just tune up the tip a little bit. Listen, there are so many unhealthy stereotypes I could dive into right now, and I won't. In my experience, having fixed my deviated septum, I don't think it's done anything. Do you, Steph? So, okay, this surgery changed my life.
SPEAKER_01Okay. The sinus surgery. Well, so I sound different. Not that it happens often, but like if I hear myself on like a video recording from before November 2017, I sound different, which is crazy. Like a little bit more like whiny nasally somehow. So anyway, he changed my life. The Neil Med sinus rinse. This is a long-term relationship. Me and my sinus care. Can I ask, does anyone has anyone here had a nose job? Me. But I broke my nose.
SPEAKER_00Playing tennis? No, surfing. Surfing? Esther, you contain multitudes.
SPEAKER_01You're full of surprises.
SPEAKER_02I feel like I'm not surprised at Esther surf.
SPEAKER_01Like that's on brand. So did it look the same or did it look different now?
SPEAKER_00It looked so much better after I broke it. So before breaking it, I had a bump in my nose, and then I broke it. What happened was I was paddling out. I was like 16. Perfect age, by the way. I feel like the whole thing was orchestrated by my mother. I'm kidding, mom. I love you. Hashem, I think, actually. Hashem, yeah. Hashem was looking out for me and my Jewish nose. Paddling out. And this other very good surfer from my community, he still feels bad about it till this day, was not wearing an ankle strap, and he lost control of his board and his short board literally like hit me directly. I blacked out and I was carried out by my surf instructor, who like obviously I had a massive crush on. Oh my God.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, this is like so hunky.
SPEAKER_00Guys, he's married to my friend now, of course. So I can't even, I was in and out of consciousness, you know? And I was like, is that you? No, but anyways, then my whole family shows up at Mammoth Medical at the hospital because I was down here on the Jersey shore. And I remember after a few hours looking in the mirror and my mom being like, I swear it looks better. There's no more bumps. You're like, actually, is it the best day of my life? I broke it so bad in three places that like it flattened my nose. And then it was like, I'm not going under the knife again, I'm not gonna fix it. It was like too traumatic. And then five years later, after not being able to breathe properly, I was like, let's do it and let's do the cosmetic part too while we're at it, because why not? And now you're happy? I don't know. Are we ever happy? I'm debating Noah's job number two.
SPEAKER_02Like, okay, I didn't mean it like in an existential way, but thank you for taking it. Oh, sorry, I know.
SPEAKER_00Just answer the question, Esther. Yes. I'm happy. Because it's gorgeous. Thank you.
SPEAKER_04You're beautiful. This is one of those conversations that if anyone who was not Jewish was listening, I think they would think, like, what are you talking about? Like, I thought we're not allowed to talk about Jewish noses. And actually, we are allowed to talk about Jewish noses. You are not.
SPEAKER_00Or they can. I feel like this goes back to like, we should own our stereotypes, I guess. Can we reclaim the noish job?
SPEAKER_01Or we can we reclaim the nose. Can you separate the nose job from like Jewish identity? I guess is the question when it's in a Jewish context. Can you reclaim that? Because I feel like a lot of people view if you do get a nose job for cosmetic reasons, people either judge it like, are you turning your back on some kind of ethnic identity? I think then maybe we're also thinking too much about like what women are doing to their face. We are maybe putting too much on them. I feel like growing up, I was like self-conscious about my nose, but now I'm like, this is who I'm supposed to be. And this is like who I proudly am because I'm like, oh, this is my Jewish face. I don't have another one. And this is when our producer, Ariel, would be like, no one can see you. This is an audio podcast. Don't talk about your face. We'll put pictures, we'll put our head together.
SPEAKER_04People are like zooming in on your little Instagram pictures to see what our noses are like.
SPEAKER_01It is funny. And then I feel like you can kind of trace the nose job. There was like the ski slope era, depending on like what era it was, when you got your nose job. There's these sort of like telltale signs. I don't know. Can we separate it?
SPEAKER_02Is it weird that I feel nostalgic for like the days when a nose was the stereotype about the Jewish people? It's such a more innocent stereotype than some of the ways we're being labeled now that it's like, oh yeah, it's it's like a little quaint.
SPEAKER_04Not like Jews control the universe and pull the strings in our political system. It's you know what? It's like you have big noses, and that's actually not wrong.
SPEAKER_02There are levels of these things.
SPEAKER_00I remember actually when I was going to get my nose job, I was recommended to go. And we could end this here. Nope, we are nope, we're rolling. He's a Middle Eastern man. And the line of thinking was, oh, he's really good with your community because he's very familiar with the Syrian Jewish face and the nose. Back to what Stephanie's point was, it was like there was this trend of the ski slope, like the really like sloped nose. And I remember going to him and he was like, You can't have that nose on a Middle Eastern face. And so I had to see this specific doctor. I would love to hear from his perspective the trajectory because he's been servicing a lot of different Jewish communities. So I would love to know like what trends he's seen over the past years, either a decline in class, you know.
SPEAKER_01I also feel like people are doing so much more to their face when they're younger, like the fillers, the this, the that. There's such a comfort with plastic surgery and amending your look than there was like when we were growing up, I would say. And I wonder if like the nose is still even part of that. Is it a modification on top of all the other ones? Or is it like we don't really care about our noses, we care about our lips? Skin care and eyebrows.
SPEAKER_02Those are the things. When you're talking about like tweens and teens, it's all about like the skincare and the eyebrows. They're very focused on that.
SPEAKER_01But so are they looking at their faces more than we did? And so are they looking at their noses more than we did?
SPEAKER_00I think Noah's job is just almost like benign at this point. It's like give it. I think unless you have a really strong nose, where it's the obvious and obvious thing. I don't know. Diane, I do agree. Like when I speak to my nieces, their medicine cabinets and their knowledge of skincare, I'm floored. I'm like, you guys have baby skin.
SPEAKER_02It's a universe. The skincare stuff that's really pushed at tweens and teens is a universe of larger products that are just aggressively and heavily marketed to them. And I feel like the business world woke up and was like, hey, new consumers, let's insist they all have $40 oversized water bottles that like you're drinking right now from one Stephanie.
SPEAKER_01As I'm holding a literal 40-ounce water bottle with a golden sticker on it, hot pink.
SPEAKER_0240 ounce metal water bottles that cost $40 when you're like, okay, that's one week. And then the next week, it's like, let's talk about retinol, you know? And they all become experts. R is for retinol. Exactly. At crazy skincare regimes. It's a heavily marketed sector right now, and it just worries me because they're children.
SPEAKER_04The water bottle as status symbol is not new. It just used to be less expensive water bottles. Like when I was going to sleepway camp, it was the Nalgene. What is that? It's just a plastic portable water bottle.
SPEAKER_02I really don't like that word nalgene.
SPEAKER_01Is it triggering to you? I mean, how many microplastics were in there?
SPEAKER_02To me, Nalgene is evocative of like outdoorsy things, pine needles, birkin stalks, bad hair. It's just like I don't like that. I don't know. That makes me think of like being outside in like a camp setting. And I that makes me like uncomfortable. For me, that is good.
SPEAKER_01To each their own. Look, we contain multitudes as Jewish people, indoors and outdoors.
SPEAKER_04When I was in middle school, makeup was being heavily marketed to tween girls back then, but it was just like drugstore stuff. And maybe if you were lucky, you would get a trip to Sephora at the mall. But it was not constantly in front of you on TikTok. It was like when you had a day with your friends and you could go shopping together, you get some hard candy nail polish. I was not in on that trend. I had a tomboy phase. There's a lot to unpack there. It was more of like an activity. It was less about we're all gonna look perfect because we're on TikTok and more like our parents are dropping us off at the mall for three hours. Let's hit up Claire's. Let's go buy some random stuff.
SPEAKER_01Can we go back to a simpler time? Noses were a problem, and like maybe there was like a Biore pore strip. Like this a simpler time. All right, coming up, we're gonna dive into the John Galliano Met Costume Institute drama, but first, a word from
Simchat Torah Challenge
SPEAKER_01one of our sponsors. We've been talking about the Simcha Torah Challenge and its weekly Torah portion newsletter these last few weeks on Golden Girls. I'm excited to tell you about their newest offering. For years, you've heard the familiar holiday melodies and prayers. But what if you could actually read along in Hebrew? Head to Simcha Torah Challenge.org slash Shema, S-H-E-M-A, and sign up to get their free Hebrew reading crash course book and videos. And just for the Golden Gang, you can enter to win a Shema-inspired print created by Jewish artist Hannah Perlman. Go to Simcha Torah Challenge.org slash Golda to sign up and enter to win.
Galliano at the Met Gala with Rabbi Arielle Stein
SPEAKER_01All right, we are back, and we're gonna talk about the John Galliano Met Gala Met Costume Institute controversy. And we brought in a special guest, a Jewish fashion ringer, I would say. And it's Rabbi Ariel Stein, the assistant rabbi at Congregation Rhoda Sholem on the upper west side of Manhattan, and maybe the only rabbi ever featured in Vogue for her shoe collection. So, Rabbi Ariel Stein, welcome to Golda Girls. Thanks for having me. It's so good to be here. You are a longtime friend of Golda. We love you. I do have to say, you are the only rabbi on this recording. Rabbi Diana Fersco could not actually be here for this segment of the recording. She will join us back for Good for the Jews. It's good for us to always have a rabbi with us on this show at any given point. Very legit. We really wanted to talk about something that I think a lot of us have been seeing and thinking about this past week, which is the news announced last Friday that the next designer honored by the Met Costume Institute, which is part of the Met Museum, and most significantly, like the focus of the Met Gala, which, like, even if you don't even care about fashion, that's like something you know about. And it's very much tied in with Vogue, Ana Wentor. There's just like a lot of sheen to this event, to this institute. They announced on Friday that the designer they were honoring was John Galliano. And he was a former Dior designer, mega, mega, mega designer, super influential in the 90s, 2000s. Ultimately has a very, very public series of anti-Semitic outbursts in 2011 and is caught several times on tape saying like pretty horrific things, very clearly intoxicated in a bar, multiple incidents of this. He ultimately does the then Abe Foxman ADL tour, right? You meet with Abe Foxman, you sort of repent. He was meeting with, you know, Holocaust survivors. He was sort of meeting with rabbis. He took a magazine in with him on like a psychotherapy session. You know, he really was like doing the work to better himself. And that was about a decade ago. He's since obviously found work again. He sort of got slowly reaccepted, I would say, into the fashion mainstream, with this as like a big footnote, a big asterisk to him. And now he's getting this mega honor. He's one of these for the third living designer ever to be honored in this way. And the question that I think has dominated all of our feeds lately is like, what do we as Jews think about this? Is this okay? Is this too soon? It's been pointed out that the Met Costume Institute tried to do this like two years ago. It was deemed just too toxic. You can't honor Galeano. He's so marked by his anti-Semitic racist comments from a decade ago. So now they're doing it. I'm gonna tell you where I'm at, okay? Because I want to be really, really honest here. I was at Tablet Magazine covering this. I was running their blog. This is like a very 2011 sentence. I was running their blog and writing about this all the time. It was like this crazy thing. He had to go to court for like anti-Semitism, like for hate speech in France, where this happened. I'm of two minds over this controversy. And the first, and maybe the hotter take, is that I don't want to get mad about every single thing that happens in the world right now. There is so much that is making us angry and upset. And part of me is just like, he did the work, Abe Foxman checked the box for him. Let's just sort of move on. And then on the other hand, I am moved by what people are saying and what friends of mine have been saying, which is like if someone had had like a racist outburst 10 years ago, 15 years ago, there's no way that that would be enough of a footnote to let him have this mega honor and to allow him so far back into the mainstream. And what does it say about the perception of Jewish hate and of anti-Jewish speech that we're all sort of okay with this? Share with me like where you are on this and like how we should be feeling about this as Jews, as consumers of fashion, you know, whether it's like people who are super into it or like the cerulean blue, devil rose prata, the way it trickles down to all of us.
SPEAKER_04I didn't know about any of this until I got this New York Times alert last week. And I was like, an anti-Semitism story I'm not aware of. I was in high school at the time, so that's part of it. But the New York Times story weirdly talked about the incident and didn't say what he had actually said. So I found this article from 2011 where he goes up to a French couple having a drink in Paris. He said things like, effing ugly Jewish bitch, and also effing Asian bastard. And then it says he made 30 anti-Jewish insults in the span of 45 minutes. So this was not he walked by someone and was like triggered and threw something out there. He has apologized, as you said, and said that he was dealing with an addiction. Here it says he was addicted to alcohol, sleeping tablets, and Valium. So certainly he realized that what he did was wrong. The article also says he had apparently made similar insults to a different woman at the same bar a few months prior. Both captured on film. Okay, so I haven't seen the videos. I'll offer my take as someone who didn't know about any of this, and all I can say about fashion on this call is that I'm dying to see Rabbi Ariel's shoe collection. I'm so jealous. Shoes are where I want to spend all my money. I think can he design clothes? Sure. Can this person be allowed back into the world? I don't think we need to be giving someone an enormous public honor with this background. It's not like there's a shortage of talented designers. Maybe I'm missing the point because I don't know how important he is in the world of fashion. But I think often when we have this conversation culturally about cancel culture and is there no path for redemption for anyone? Like I don't agree with that, but I also don't think the path to redemption needs to include the highest honors in people's field.
SPEAKER_03I think that's really well said. I think the things that come up for me when I'm thinking about this, and I think I'm like right between the age gaps here. I was in college when this was happening, and I was like vaguely aware of it, but it was still early internet sort of. And I remember a lot of conversation around like the chic rabbis collection that Galeano came out with, and like all the FIT students I was at MIU. This was like a big topic. I think the two things I think about is what amount of repentance and atonement is enough? We're about to enter the season of Chuba. When have you really achieved it? And who can really know? Who can gauge that? What's performative, what's real? I'm totally with you, Gabby, on this idea of like, okay, a person can re-enter kind of the mainstream, but like why with the highest honor? The question that I have is why now? It's not that long ago, two years ago, where this was like beyond the pale. And I'm also like very into things that push back against the absolutism of cancel culture, which I think you were alluding to. And I think it's incredibly important that we give people avenues to kind of re-enter, especially when there are so many people that are probably digging in their heels if they've done or said something or a few things in the public eye. And I think it's part of our responsibility to be like, okay, there actually is a path to making things better. But I'm definitely with you. Like, I don't think it has to be the Met Gala.
SPEAKER_00Unless now all the Jews get invited to the Met Gala, then Well, also there's two things, and I could be wrong because I'm not the biggest consumer of the Met Gala fashion. I'm not super into that world, but I do feel like the Met Gala's influence has sort of been like on the wane. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do think that this past year, with a few people publicly saying they weren't going to attend, and obviously that had to do with like Bezos co-chairing the event and people sitting the Met Gala out in protest of that. There is this sense of the Met Gala trying to maintain relevance now, which is really interesting. And then you have this, you know, mega news story around it coming out now, combined with the other mega news story it feels at the moment, which is the problem of anti-Semitism in New York specifically. So I do think, just to echo what you guys are saying, the timing of it is really interesting. I also think that the New York Times article that I read that broke the news on this spoke about the circumstances around which the decision was finalized and people that were in the room, various Jewish leaders and rabbis who were in the room with Galeano when the decision was made, who koshered the deal, so to speak. And Stephanie, I think I'm with you. A part of me is like, ugh, like I this is not the battle that I really want to fight right now. But part of it also does feel like rubbing salt in an open wound. When the Jewish community in New York is grappling with anti-Semitism and finding their footing and where they fit into New York City like culture, I guess. It also reminds me of another famous drunk anti-Semitic. There was an acronym that I forget which article it was.
SPEAKER_01Yes, it was Rachel Schukert back in 2011 in tablet ASWG, anti-Semite while drunk.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was like it's like if Mel Gibson was being honored at the Academy Awards this year.
SPEAKER_01You hope that would never happen, right? Like the Lifetime Achievement Award for Mel Gibson. But it might, right? I don't know. But again, it's the timing of it. Why now? Is this the climate? All these quotes from Andrew Bolton, who is the curator in charge of the Mets Costume Institute. And he kept being like, now is actually the time to do this. We're gonna explore it. And I don't really buy that. I don't necessarily know how you're either gonna pay tribute to his design genius. No one is contesting the impact he's had on fashion and design. So Bolton is basically saying, like, given the alarming rise of hate, it makes the current questions more urgent. He says, how to hold artistic achievement and ethical accountability together without allowing one to erase the other. And I just don't know that the costume institute is capable of doing that necessarily. How many placards are you gonna put there to like give context? Does every dress get one? I'm not sure how you do that. And I think that if they can do that, that's actually a really important, great thing to do. Rabbi Ariela, the question I have for you is to talk to us a little bit more about this concept of teshuva, what Galeano did after these filmed outbursts that cost him his job at Dior, a fall from grace, socially, fashion-wise, all of those things. What does Judaism tell us about that?
SPEAKER_03I think that this idea of repentance and atonement is so important here because it's not only about kind of making just a blanket apology. There's a key piece, which is reckoning with the wrong that's been done in collaboration and in conversation with the people who have been wronged. So to a certain extent, I think his educational process, his relationships with various kind of Jewish leaders and rabbis does speak to that. And I think it's not only the leadership level that's been harmed by this or that continues to be harmed by this type of behavior. I think it's really hard to gauge when Shuva is complete. It's kind of an eternal work in progress. From the very outside, it seems like something he has been grappling with. Again, like based on the climate of the world, I would say this probably remains a project. I do feel like we're in a moment where just people are unwilling to even like really engage in a sincere or deep way with the kind of atonement process or the reckoning process. And like it is important that some of that work has been done, whether or not it's complete, whether or not it's like for real. And I do feel like having worked a bunch with college students, we we need to lift up people that are willing to be like, mm, mistakes were made to use a further chism. Whether or not we fully buy it, you know.
SPEAKER_01What are we okay accepting? Because what he said was your ancestors should have been gassed. He said a bunch of things on those tapes that are really bad. So for me, as like a modern person who wants to like be in the world, right? To go back to this thing I said at the beginning, which is like, I don't want to fight about everything. I hate the idea that Jews are seen to be like victimizing themselves. But at the same time, you're like, okay, if we don't sort of make a stink about this, who will? And I think no one will. And then if this is okay, you could say this thing, and then what's next, basically?
SPEAKER_00That's what's bothersome about this whole thing, right? It's that no one's making a stink. I think that in prior years, you could sort of count on the establishment or the general population to be in agreement that certain things were inappropriate, certain things were beyond the pale. And I think that what's so bothersome now is that we no longer have that consensus. Jewish population is on the back foot. So if we don't rally around one another and call things out as they come, nobody else will. And I think that that shift in what's appropriate and what's acceptable, that's the really worrisome thing now, right? It's it's not that John Gagliano is still an anti-Semite 15 years later or whatever it is. It's that the consensus around what we should do with that information has maybe shifted and changed, and certain things that would not have been acceptable 15 years ago are now acceptable. And that's not just because time has healed certain wounds or people have done the quote unquote work. It's because the climate's changed. My feeling that that's what's getting people upset and worried, which I understand. To me, that rings like so true.
SPEAKER_03And I'm always kind of torn with situations like this of how much to talk about and how upset to get. And I think Stephanie were talking about this really succinctly, but it's to me, it feels like the only way to respond to this is to ask the questions of has enough been done? Is there actually ever enough that can happen? Why this? Why now? What does this mean? And then also I think Esther, you were raising this. Is this kind of a cry for help from the Met Gala? Um, is this kind of like a reaching for relevance in a moment where that relevance maybe has dipped or where some type of public drama is needed to draw attention back? And like, what does that mean for us to be part of that, whether or not we want to be?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like a part of me feels like we should just be like, screw the Met Gala, who cares? You know, we don't want to be part of it anyways.
SPEAKER_01I guess like from a fashion standpoint, we talk so much about like the art and the artist. But here, there's so many trickle downs, right? I'm curious for your thoughts on how do you approach your own fashion identity, right? Are you thinking like, what does this designer stand for? Anyone, not just Galeano. Are we thinking about that more in a broader, more like ethical, political way?
SPEAKER_03I mean, I think coming out of art school once upon a time, I think the question of like art versus the artist has been something like I've been thinking about and not coming to a resolution with for so many years, like so many of us. I know like in my own personal life, I'm very occupied with the sources of garments, the sources of shoes. That doesn't mean I'm achieving perfection or that I'm buying every single thing that's like fully handmade ethically, but I think kind of that education and work to at least be aware is a key piece of that. And it's something like I try to prioritize when it's possible.
SPEAKER_01And do you feel with someone like Galeano, is the art good enough to excuse the personal failings? Forget about like whether or not he should be honored here. Is that something we can move beyond as consumers, do you think?
SPEAKER_03I feel like this is gonna be an unsatisfactory answer. I think that we can appreciate the art. I wouldn't purchase it. And so I think there's a way to appreciate and understand the contributions that are being made by trying to be outside of maybe the financial mechanisms. Obviously, I think that's like a dream world. And I'm not like in a moment where I'm like, oh, let me just buy some Galiano. But I think that there are certain mechanisms that can maybe be deployed.
SPEAKER_01It's interesting with like high fashion that is not accessible to the vast majority of people. Like, how do we take some kind of stance? It's not, oh, I'm gonna throw out my Dior dress. How do we sort of hold designers accountable and think about what it means to honor them so publicly?
SPEAKER_03I mean, I think what we're doing right now is a key part of that accountability of saying there is a conversation to be had. There's actually myriad conversations to be had, and we all should be part of that. And we can do it in a public space and we can do it in a way that's maybe imperfect. And just because somebody's being honored at the Met Gala doesn't mean we don't have a meaningful take.
SPEAKER_04I can get worked up about anything. So I have developed an opinion about this. But when I got that news alert last week, I had never heard of this person. I don't really care about the Met Gala beyond when they do fun interviews on the red carpet or I don't know, whatever they call it for the Met Gala. It obviously matters. The way that we all live is shaped by designers. You know, Stephanie referenced the famous Devil Wears Prodice, of course, about Terulean Blue. But I think mostly, like when you said Stephanie, there's so much to be angry about. Do we have to be angry about this? I don't think it's right, but also I'm not angry about this. This is not ruining my week.
SPEAKER_00Just on that topic of separating the art from the artists, there have been countless brilliant people who've contributed amazing things to society through music or books or art who are genuinely terrible human beings. Does that discount the fact that they've shaped culture in one way or another? No. But I think that for better or for worse, we used to be able to like hold those two truths in our head at the same time, right? This person can have views that I find despicable, but I can't really discount the fact that they've produced something really amazing. And I think now the blurring of those lines between someone's inherent personal beliefs with their art or what they produce or what they contribute, those lines have been so blurred. I think ultimately for worse, right? Even though I definitely don't agree with Galeano's views or Mel Gibson's views, or you know, someone else has an opinion that I don't share. I think for me, it doesn't have to take away from the thing that they produce or the impact that it have. Maybe it's as simple as not giving it your headspace.
SPEAKER_01Well, speaking of headspace, this the Mechel is not till May 2027. So unfortunately, this will be like a looming storyline. I feel like I'm gonna have a way spicier take in like February. Let's see what happens. Anyone can say anything before then, right? I think we'll see what's going on with the current climate, what's going on in New York City. Like there's a lot to see right now. It's the announcement that we're getting worked up over, and then it's let's just see how this plays out, see how they do address all of his past in the exhibit, right? Let's see how they do all this stuff. Rabbi Ariel Stein, you're gonna stick around. You're gonna help us answer a listener question in our next segment.
Ask GOLDA: How to Navigate Progressive Spaces
SPEAKER_01All right, it's time for Ask Olda, where we answer a question that comes in from one of our listeners. This one comes in from Samantha in New York. She writes, I've become very active in my union at a large university because I genuinely see labor organizing as a Jewish value. My grandparents were union organizers, and advocating for workers' rights feels like a continuation of that legacy. To me, Judaism and labor activism have always gone hand in hand. Lately, though, I've been struggling with whether there's still room for Jews like me in these spaces. Many of my fellow union reps wear kafias, Palestinian pins, and other symbols specifically to union rallies. I don't usually see them wearing those things outside of union events, so it feels like support for the Palestinian cause has become intertwined with labor activism. I often feel like my Jewish identity, especially as someone who is unapologetically Zionist, is something that makes me an outsider in a movement whose values I otherwise share. I tried talking to our union president about it, but the conversation didn't go very far. It left me wondering whether this is something that can actually be worked through or if I'm holding on to an idea of progressive activism that no longer exists. I guess my question is bigger than my union. Jews have such a long history of building labor movements and fighting for social justice, yet it feels sometimes like we're expected to leave a core part of our identity at the door in order to fully belong. How do you know when it's worth staying in these spaces, having difficult conversations, and trying to make room for yourself? And when is it healthier just to walk away? All right, Samantha, we're gonna do our best. Ariel, I'm curious, rabbi, if you have a thought on this about Jews in progressive spaces.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, I think like this in many ways is like the question of the moment. Feels very, very relevant in real in New York right now. To me, I think the metric I would apply, or the thing that feels the most relevant, is like, are people in these spaces open to conversation? And are people willing to sit in discomfort and to sit in difference of opinion? Or is there a uniform opinion that has to be had and you're kind of iced out if you don't hold that? I think if it's the latter, then like maybe it something else could fit. But if there's space for conversation and space for presence and space for difference, it's actually critical that you are there because we do not need people to be 100% the same in all these spaces, and people do need to encounter difference.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, as Ariel said, this is the question. You could apply this to so many different organizations and fields after October 7th. It could be literally anything, and I've probably written an article about like half of them. But I don't think there's a single right answer. I think there are people who would tell you you should leave. If you're not being fully accepted, this isn't the place for you. And I think that there is some truth to that. That if there's a core part of your identity that you feel like you're being asked to leave at the door, that's a really hard thing. And if that's uncomfortable for you, you don't have to stick around. That's a very, very fair choice to make. On the other side, we're complicated, complex beings. We care about lots of things. And being Jewish is for all of us a large part of that, but not the only part. It's not the only thing that we care about in this world, at least for myself, and I think probably for most people as well. And so if you decide that being in a union and organizing for certain issues that you care about, whether it's better wages, things like that, is so important to you, uh, even if that union might also be organizing, for example, on behalf of BDS and boycotting Israel, you can weigh those factors and whichever side you come down on, I think is a legitimate choice. The problem is, like we are in this moment now where you are choosing one way or another. It's harder now to reconcile all of those parts of your identity. So I'm naming that, but there's there certainly is no solution. And I think we just have to be sure of who we are and the choices that we make, which is easier said than done, but I think it's important.
SPEAKER_03So I just wanted to pop in with one thought that I think is really important that we forgot to name. It's also really appropriate to find Jewish community and Jewish expression in a multiplicity of ways. And this doesn't have to be the only way, Samantha. It's gonna be one of multiple that nourish and feed you.
SPEAKER_01I acknowledge I say this from a podcast studio on the upper west side where I'm ensconced in the Jewish world in ways that I realize most people are not, right? And I'm aware of that. Kind of gets back to Esther what you just said in the last segment about Galeano, about like how annoying it is to actually have to like make a stink and fight, if not us who, right? And so I want to say to Samantha, I want you to stay there and fight for a Jewish place in these spaces that Jews were historically, as you say, so foundationally involved, right? And so I want you to be able to still see that as part of your Jewish identity. And it makes me really sad to think about that. We would then be giving up these spaces. Again, I'm not in those spaces right now. It's easy for me to say that, right? I'm not on your campus in your union dealing with people who are probably hostile to your worldview in a way that I'm guessing you are not hostile to theirs, right? This isolation you're feeling is real. I don't want to be naive, but I want to believe that we don't have to leave these spaces just because in this moment they have like cued to a way that seems unfriendly to us.
SPEAKER_00And these were spaces, like you said, where Jews were historically so involved in. Like you think about the civil rights movement or the unions, it would be such a shame for Jews to surrender their position in those spaces because this idea of the omni cause has taken over, right? Because in in typically like liberal spaces now, if you don't subscribe to every single bullet point of that ideology, you sort of feel like you don't belong there. It would be a shame to see a lack of a Jewish presence in those spaces. So I would say stay there. And like Ariel said, if there is an opportunity for a conversation, try and go there. I would say that you might be surprised to see what you'll find and who you might connect with.
SPEAKER_03I think finding ways to kind of spiritually nourish and support yourself in addition to this expression of your Jewishness is probably something that might be helpful in terms of continuing this work. And like everyone else said, this is an amazing gift for you to be there. And also you should do it when it feels like something that is not gonna destroy you emotionally.
SPEAKER_01All right. Samantha, let us know. Keep us posted, hi at goldenguide.com. We'd love to hear how this unfolds and what you decide to do. Ariel Stein, thank you for popping in. Thank you for being our fashion rabbi. Thank you for guiding us, talking about Teshuva, like really, really grounding us for this conversation. Thanks for having me. This was so fun. And I feel like the best place for people to follow along with you, I want to say, is on Instagram at Rabbi Ariel Stein. That is the best place. The kind of Ariel that's A-R-I-E-L-L-E. Yes, not the mermaid, the other. Not the mermaid.
Good for the Jews
SPEAKER_01All right, I'm back with the Golden Girls, Gabby, Esther, and Diana for our final segment of the show. It's good for the Jews. It's where we each go around and share something recently of note that we've found to be good for the Jews, more important than ever, I would say. So I'm gonna kick us off. I'm gonna share something that I saw on Instagram that that made me so happy. And do you guys know Yuval Raphael? So she's an Israeli singer and songwriter. She was um a survivor of the attacks at the Nova festival, and she went on to represent Israel at the 2025 Eurovision competition. So she was in Canada this week. She was performing at the Maccabi Games opening night in Toronto. And so she performed a bunch of songs, but she also did Od You Vos Shalom Alene, which is that song Salam, which I love. And she performed that song with a gospel choir, the Sharon Riley and Faith Corral Canadian Gospel Group. And I'm gonna play you a little bit of it because it makes me so happy, and I'll tell you why after. Okay, so this is Giving Keeping the Faith. The rabbit I played by Ben Stiller was performing in Kalehenu with a gospel choir and got in tons of trouble with his board. But like I just love this. I love it so much.
SPEAKER_02She's amazing. She's so talented, just beyond, beyond, beyond. So anything she does is a general matter. I love.
SPEAKER_04I'll share something Diana coded, which is to say pretty straightforward. Yeah. Well, we're they're all Jewish. As discussed earlier when I was reading the print paper, I spent Shabbat this weekend at the home of someone who showed my Shabbat, and we went to their synagogue, a conservative synagogue in the Philadelphia suburbs. My Good for the Jews is kiddish lunch. Everyone goes to the service, and by the way, at this synagogue, there were a lot of people there for a random Saturday in the middle of summer. Bar mitzvah or no shout out. No bar mitzvah. There was a Devar Torah where people in the congregation were like asked to share their thoughts and they actively did. So just great, excited Jewish vibes all around. Lower Marion, Pennsylvania. And after the service, there's a kiddish lunch, and you can guess the food that was there. We had bagels, we had tuna salad, we had egg salad, we had a bunch of random cookies at the end, we had the worst coffee you've ever tasted. Locks?
SPEAKER_01Nova? There was no locks, actually. I mean, middle of summer, you're not springing for locks. No bar mitzvah boy to sponsor that. Come on.
SPEAKER_04You're not really there for the food, even though, in my opinion, even a bad bagel with tuna salad is still amazing.
SPEAKER_01By the way, that's like the most gabby thing ever. You have such a positive outlook on life. I agree. Thank you.
SPEAKER_04My Golden Girls co-hosts are seeing me in the best light. I'm gonna go with that and say that that's totally how I see myself as well. But I just thought that it was so sweet to be there. I am not a regular at Saturday morning services, and all of these people who just wanted to be in community with the others at their synagogue and stick around and have long conversations over lunch on a Saturday because they have nowhere to be, I thought was great.
SPEAKER_02It's all about the schmooze, you know? It's like the food is the text, but the schmooze is the subtext. The schmoozing was amazing.
SPEAKER_04And I did walk into this synagogue that I had never been to before, and the first person I met was the father of someone I studied abroad with in Jerusalem.
SPEAKER_00It all made sense. As a mom of three, when my husband takes my kids to Schul, which he does almost every Saturday morning, they stay for the kiddouche for the lunch. I should probably go with them because when I do go, I love it and it is really special, and the kids absolutely love it. But it's such a nice time.
SPEAKER_02My good for the Jews is on this coffee cup. Our listeners from the east side know Cafe Aron well. But Cafe Aron, which is a little coffee shop, amazing, has just opened on the west side in the lobby of the JCC. On their coffee cups, they have the letters B H. For those of you that don't know, it stands for blessings, right? Like may it happen with a blessing. I love that this mundane object of a coffee cup has this wish for us of having God's blessing. And every time you order something at this cafe, they also have which specific blessing you're supposed to say directly listed under the food. So I just love that they're just bringing a natural sense of Judaism into an everyday act that you get, getting a pastry, getting a coffee. So my good for the Jews is exactly that like bringing authentic Judaism into our daily lives via coffee cups.
SPEAKER_00Wait, do you guys use BH when you're talking? Oh, I'm going on vacation tomorrow, BH. Because this is a thing that everybody I know does. And it's only gotten more and more pronounced in text. I have a doctor at one o'clock BH. And it used to be just like it used to be used in more serious conversations, but now it's been being used very casually. And it's almost like a tick. Like almost how I would say, oh, Beli Ion Harab without the evil eye. Now it's it's been now like BH has sort of taken over. That's exactly what happens, but it's Jewish code switching.
SPEAKER_02It's very hame vinyaven, like those who know know. Wait, is that the original IYKYK what you just said? Yes, all stolen from the Talmud, obviously. Hello. You can only use it with the Jewish population that is aware of the phrase, but also of that kind of thinking. It's evocative a certain way of being.
SPEAKER_01Esther, do you know anyone who would text OMG? Yes. Of course. Okay. Are we allowed to, but like people who would never say, like, oh my God.
SPEAKER_00In my book, I actually did not spell out God's name. Not even because I'm like so superstitious about using God's name in vain, but just because a lot of people, like in my community, will not spell out G-O-D. In English, though? In English. They do G-D.
SPEAKER_01G-G, by the way, this is a hot take, is like people who put pictures of their kids on Instagram but cover the face with an emoji. Just don't put them on. Don't say it. Don't put it on. It's all or nothing here.
SPEAKER_00I agree. Although I have been guilty of both of those things. It's OMG. It's not oh my God. It's more casual.
SPEAKER_01And then, okay, Diana, what's the thing that if it were on a coffee cup, you couldn't throw it out?
SPEAKER_02Like if it's God's name written out, then you don't throw it away. You put it in like a geniza. Wouldn't it be funny if that was on a coffee cup? No, you can't just throw it. It can't be written on a coffee cup. That's crazy. You could only recycle it. What? No. You could compound it. Recycle it. No, no, stop, stop. There's this thing. It's called a Geniza. Okay. And it's a place where it's like a closet where you store sacred literature with the name of God on it, precisely because you don't throw it away. Or you can give it to someone like me who does burials and you can bury it in the ground in a cemetery, the papers. So you wouldn't write it on a coffee cup because you have no way to like dispose of that item in some kind of like respectful way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, when my kids finish school, every year I give their papers to a person who buries them appropriately. So similar to Gabby's, my good for the Jews revolves around community and togetherness. I participated in a tennis tournament yesterday, a women's doubles tournament in support of my kids' elementary school. I play in this tournament. I've played in this tournament every year since I have lived in New Jersey. But something about this year felt different. In these times when a lot of my peers are young mothers and questioning the choices we make for our children around what they wear and where they go to camp and where they go to school and how we're raising them. It just felt like such a warm, supportive environment rallying around our school and like a common cause and wanting the best for our kids and all in this uber competitive spirit playing tennis. I don't know, it just reminded me of the way my mom will talk about the earlier days of when she was raising us in Brooklyn when the community was maybe a little bit smaller and things were unsure and unknown and they were building something together and just welcoming new parents into the school and new children into the school and having conversations about what we want out of our children's education, all in an environment that felt, yes, competitive, but also very warm and friendly. Yeah, I lost in the first round, in case anyone was wondering. It's very honest of you to say that on air. I felt like if I was like giving a victory speech, and I just want to be very clear that it was a losing day in all other aspects. But the community won. And that's great.
SPEAKER_04When I was growing up to make my mandated, contractually mandated reference to Camper Ma at the end of Color War, when there would always be a lot of sad kids, the counselors would say everyone's a winner at Maha Naromaduro. So same thing with your deal tennis tournament.
SPEAKER_02Yes. I I don't know. I'm taking an opposing side here, as per usual. I like winning and losing. I'm good with some kids being losers. I hope you win next time. It's good for you. Builds you up.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, they still lost. They still lost. So they were just trying to soften the blow.
SPEAKER_02Right. You're still a loser, kid. Not that they're a loser as in general matter, but like it's okay to lose sometimes. And then guess what? You try hard and you realize that didn't end me. I'm still myself.
SPEAKER_01Still here. I feel like this tennis bit is a tease for next week's guest, where we'll be talking a lot more about tennis, but you'll have to wait till next week to hear that. All right, another
Credits
SPEAKER_01great episode. That was so much fun. Golden Girls is a production of Golden Media. The show is hosted by me, Stephanie Butnik with Gabby Deutsch, Diana Frisco, and Esther Shahebar. Ariel Shapiro is our executive producer, and we're edited by the team at Poldu. Get more Golda at Goldeguide.com. Follow us on Instagram at GoldenGuide. In our show notes, as always, you can find links to sign up for Diana's newsletter Modern Jewess and Gabby's Substack and Esther's novel Sisters of Fortune. Send us your Ask Golda questions at high at Goldeguide.com. And just a reminder if you leave us a review and send us a screenshot to that same email, hi at Goldeguide.com, we will send you a sticker. I'm gonna show you the stamps I bought. I said last time I couldn't pick out a stamp. I went back to the post office. They only had one stamp available is these beautiful yellow flowers. And I was like, you made the decision for me. Letters are going out. So send us those reviews and you will get your stickers. Thanks for listening and stay golden.
SPEAKER_02That's a golda podcast.
