How to Spot Counterfeits” Detection Tips for Modern Collectors

This week we are covering 𝗛𝗼𝘄 𝘁𝗼 𝗦𝗽𝗼𝘁 𝗖𝗼𝘂𝗻𝘁𝗲𝗿𝗳𝗲𝗶𝘁𝘀, exploring how to protect ourselves from costly mistakes, spot cleaned vs. original surfaces, understand toning, and take full control of your collecting strategy. Subscribe to stay informed and avoid the pitfalls!

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

You're listening to the American Coin and Currency Live Podcast. Join us live every Thursday at 1 p.m. Eastern, 10 a.m. Pacific on YouTube, LinkedIn, and X. You can also catch us on Spotify and all major podcast platforms. Join me, Dustin Lee, head of social media and host, alongside John Matty, CEO and founder of American Coin and Currency. Tune in as we explore the world of numismatics, hard money, precious metals, and the future of collecting with expert guests and real dealer insights. Be sure to subscribe and stay informed to help protect your wealth. Now back to the show. Alright, can you hear me? I can. How are you, Dustin? Oh, fantastic. I'm excited to be here today, another live stream. Get some uh good info and education around counterfeiting and keeping those insights for anyone that's collecting and being in the industry. So it's always good to protect our customers here. So yeah. So uh excited to be here with you guys today. Uh today's episode is how to spot counterfeit detection tips for modern collectors. Um, so I want to welcome everyone. This is our numismatic talk uh brought to you by American Coin and Currency. I'm your host, Dustin Lee, head of social media. I'm joined today by John Beatty, is our founder and CEO of American Coin and Currency. Uh each week we dive into the world of precious metals, uh, everything between historic and authentication, investing in collecting strategies. Uh, today's episode, like I mentioned, how to spot fake and counterfeit detection tips for modern collectors. We'll explore identifying fake coins, understanding toting, telling if a coin is clean, and how to protect collection from costly mistakes uh today. Um so uh little introduction to myself before we come our veteran. I've been a crypto uh builder, I've been collecting um uh coins and um Pokemon cards since early 90s, got into eBay 1999, um, been a seller on eBay since 2006, um you know, identifying you know intrinsic value with you know coins or Pokemon cars and just collectibles in general. So um what led me into being here with you guys today? Um you know if you want to give a uh quick introduction to yourself, John.

SPEAKER_02 2:25

And we love having you, Dustin. So thank you. Okay, yep, I'm uh John Madey. I'm the uh founder and owner of American Coin and Currency, as well as ACDC Labs, which is a uh kind of a coin-related business, but it it it involves uh digital twins of of uh numismatic coins. I got into the business, I mean I started collecting coins when I was a kid, and so I've always had that passion. I've always had passion for uh business, and um just so I I I've been involved with different things in my life, different companies, different businesses I've built and sold. And uh I got into this business about professionally full-time, about 16 years ago. Um and it's just it every year gets better and better. And what I really love is that there's always more to learn. Uh, I mean, you could be an expert on just one thing in this huge world of of uh coins and collectibles and things like that. So it's uh to me that's exciting. And so yeah, I I love doing this. I I and uh the the the weekly one-hour show that we do to uh especially today, because this is near and dear to my heart with uh with counterfeits and fakes and replicas, and it's really becoming a problem. And so people that you know that are in this marketplace, you know, I'm sure if you buy enough coins, you're gonna, especially raw coins, which we'll get into the difference between raw and graded, um, you you've probably gone you've probably been burned. So I'm glad we're having this show and we're gonna go trying to trying to get into detail and get a little granular on what to look for, what not to look for, do's and don'ts, and also resources that are readily available to assist if you if needed. And so we're gonna go over all that good stuff today.

SPEAKER_03 4:21

Fantastic. Yeah, it's always good to to have an educator such as yourself to educate our audience and anyone that's just you know starting in the industry. So it's good to have that knowledge. Uh, but yeah, let's let's get into it. So let's uh get into just you know the basics. Like, how do you how do you spot a counterfeit coin? You know, what are some of the common red flags? Is it weight? Is it the edging? Is it you know the consistency, like the fonts? Uh what are your takes?

SPEAKER_02 4:50

Well, it's it's really it's all the above. So uh let's start off with with get really basic. Uh in my years of doing this, I've had numerous coins come through that are uh replicas, that are fakes, counterfeits, whatever word you want to use. So a good rule of thumb to keep in mind is that if you have an opportunity to buy something that's a really either a key date or just an exceedingly rare coin, and the price is too good to be true, or just you know, you the deal of the century, you know, be wary, uh, because it's probably uh uh not a real coin. So what happens a lot of times, um, and I'll give you I'll give everyone a great example because I was recently burned, and I'm a professional, and I still got I I took the risk, let's say that I was 50-50 on whether or not it was gonna be genuine, uh, and it wasn't, but um, so Morgan silver dollars are some of the most uh replicated and faked coins. So they're not gonna be uh and they meaning uh a lot of these are coming from China, actually. China is the number one uh supplier of counterfeit coins in the numismatic market right now. So uh they're not gonna create, let's say, like a uh 1921 Morgan dollar or uh you know an 1882 or 1883 Philly, like a common year. Um it's not worth making those into replicas or or fakes. So what they're gonna do is they're gonna take um really key dates. So, you know, right off the cuff, let's say uh uh uh 1892 S or an 1893 S or 1879 Carson City, 1889 Carson City, you know, 1901-0 in a high grade. Um, these coins are are are very scarce and they're they're exceedingly valuable when you get into higher grades, you know, six figures, easy. So um I picked up I and this piece here recently, and uh that is an uh 1893 S San Francisco Mint. So when I saw this, I was like, oh, this is gonna be this is a score. I've never owned one of these um where I purchased it from the public and then got it graded and then sold it. I mean I've bought them graded already and sold them like that, but never start to finish. So I was a little leery about it because I've seen many Morgan silver dollars over the years that what they do is they'll the so the weight will match, and we'll get into that in a minute. Um, but what they'll do is they'll take a the same year, uh 1893, and they'll either alter the mint mark on the back on the reverse, or they will um actually just add the S to it. And it looks so good that it and it's hard to tell. It doesn't they make it look like it's old, you know, it doesn't look like it was recently added. That's a that's a easy tell that it's not genuine. So um, yeah, so I mean I bought two of these, and again, the guy had two. My spidey senses were kind of, you know, something's up here. But the other the other thing that that's that we all have in this in human nature is that we don't want to pass a great deal, you know, no one wants to lose out on a great deal, you know, the whole FOMO thing, fear of missing out. So I went ahead and I bought, you know, luckily I I only spent $1,500 a coin, so three grand, you know, it could be worse. Um, but no, when I when I did send these in to get graded uh with NGC, they came back as not genuine. So it happens to even you know, even to the pros. So um being that Morgan's to me in my experience are the the most uh the most replicated coins, the most uh fakes created out there, there's some really great ways to um to see if if it's genuine or not. Um uh do you have any questions at this point, Dustin?

SPEAKER_03 9:23

Um yeah, so you know being that you've kind of ran across this, I know it's it's kind of hard to tell sometimes and it's like yeah, too good to be true, or um, or yeah, like you said, like a FOMO kind of response. Um what are some of like uh kind of like top five coins that you see that are replicated?

SPEAKER_02 9:47

Always they're always gonna be super rare. So that right away is a is a tell for me. So even this week I had someone who called. Maybe they were watching our show, maybe they saw one of our ads, but they they called and I spoke with them and they said that they had uh an 1890, I'm sorry, a 1794 dollar. Um, and just the previous week I had another person call who said they had an 1804 uh uh bus cap dollar. You know, the the 181804, I'm sorry, Drake bust. The 1804 and the eight seventeen ninety-four are among the rarest coins. I think we've talked about that 1794, we've even posted over over 10 million dollars. So and the in the and the 1804 uh Drake bus, there's only uh 10 of those, eight to ten, I believe, in existence. So when someone calls and says they have one, nine, you know, you're not chances are you're not now. Weird things happen, right? We we posted about that kid that found that metal that was worth four million dollars.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

Crazy.

SPEAKER_02 10:54

You know, so uh, you know, and we've talked about a couple years ago, these people were fixing a fence post and they found a tin of coin gold coins, and one of them in 1854 San Francisco $5 sold for uh it was either 1.3 or 3.1 million. I can't remember off the top of my head. So crazy things do happen, right? Um I think that the the best thing to do, what I do is uh so I'm sorry, let me answer your question. So the top five would be the 1794, the 1801, uh Drape Bust, you'll see, and they're almost always dollars. There's they're always large denomination, like you know, as far as size, um, you know, ounce coins. I've I have seen only not many half ounce or dimes or nickels or anything like that. They seem to concentrate on on you know one ounce. But uh those two pieces, of course, I've seen numerous uh 1879 Carson Cities, 1889 Carson City, and then the other one that I've seen would be this one, which I have in my hand, the 1893 San Francisco. So those are the top five in my experience.

SPEAKER_03 12:10

Interesting, yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. They want to like counterfeit anything that's like like a silver eagle or something that's like low price, yeah, it's not worth their time. No, because I'm sorry, go ahead. Oh, no, I was go ahead. I'll I'll ask another question once you respond to that.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

Yeah, I mean, it doesn't make sense. Why why would you put in the time to make uh counterfeits of coins that you're only that can only fetch a small dollar amount, whereas you can make counterfeits of coins you know that could fetch I I guarantee you there's someone out there that would I spent $1,500 on this. I guarantee you there's someone out there that would spend $5,000 or more because I mean this coin, if genuine, is roughly a $15,000 coin in this condition. So um again, I I you know buyer beware if the deal is too good to be true, it probably is. And uh there are some really good resources which we will get into further on this discussion, uh, what to use, what to look for. Uh but I would recommend having a first off a digital scale. They're cheap, get them on Amazon, go to the store, get them. If you're gonna buy coins, uh raw coins, uh this is a really handy tool uh because the weights are, you know, if it's if they're not using the exact, like I said, this is a 1893, but it was probably either Denver or Philly. And uh and so they uh added the mint mark somehow, some way. Um so this will weigh out perfect. But those other pieces that I had mentioned, um, those other replicas, uh the like 1804 or the 1794, they they can't get the weight right. So I always tell people pop it on a scale, and it should weigh X amount. And um you can find that information. It's readily available online if you go uh to you know onto Google or whatever your search browser is and just type in what's the weight of a Morgan silver dollar. Or you have a Red Book. Um I have one over here, you know, the Red Book, which is a great tool, and I suggest that everyone get one if you're gonna get really involved with coins and investing in coins, but this has all the specs on on every coin, and that and it tells you the weight, you know, diameter, all that stuff. So that's always a good tell, is is using a scale and and getting the weight. Excuse me. Um also the uh the you know, you had mentioned in the very beginning about how the the uh the edge might look. Sometimes they're you they're using coins that have the wrong edge, so you know it could be a readed edge or it could be a just a you know a flat edge. Uh so that's really easy to find out and and then check against what you're possibly buying. Um and then um yeah, as far as uh for those two, uh, but what's really what's happened in recent years and really has become prolific, Dustin, over the last three years, I would say, is uh the influx of graded Chinese knockoffs. So this brings it into a whole new game, right? Because the rule of thumb, Dustin, has always been, you know, buyer beware, especially when you're dealing in raw coins, unless you really know what you're looking for. And even then, you could still get, you know, you could still get burned, like I did with these. Um with graded coins, uh you look at it and you're like, wow, okay, this isn't a PCGS slab, this isn't an NGC slab. Fantastic. This must be real. Well, you buy it off, you know, typically online. Um I doubt dealers knowingly are selling uh uh fake coins. I hope not. You're gonna get arrested if you are, and you should be arrested. Um but um the graded coins look identical. So in that case, what do you do? Right? You use the tools readily available to you. So on all graded coins, they're gonna have a unique numerical identifier, which is right right down there. So whether it's NGC or PCGS, and I have to say real quick, Dustin, that NGC and PCGS, along with some other uh organizations within the numismatic industry, really take this seriously. They've really taken steps to try to thwart the uh counterfeiters, and that you know, they're they're actually adding certain things to the slabs themselves for anti-counterfeiting uh uh potential, and um and it seems to be working in some ways, but uh so going back to my point uh of uh graded coin that's a counterfeit. So I buy some graded coins online. Again, I don't think dealers are selling these, I really hope not, knowingly selling them, but they are prolific on eBay, on you know, uh uh Shopify, uh I've heard even on Amazon and on uh on Walmart.com. Yes, there are believe it or not, you can buy coins on Walmart.com. Um so what you do is before you purchase anything online, right? You ask the person, reach out, and say, hey, send me a picture of the exact coin I'm gonna receive. So they send a pick, right? And I get I I I deal with this quite often because you know when we sell a coin that's a you know, let's say a five-figure coin, right? I want to be ahead of the curve and I want to give that information to the customer so they have it before they even have to ask me for it. Here, here's an image of the coin you're gonna be receiving. Take that, and I give instructions. Now take this numerical identifier, go to ngccoin.com or go to pcgs.com. You can verify it, super easy, and it they'll actually, in most cases, have a picture of the coin, the actual slab coin, and that way you can verify that PCGS or NGC did grade the coin and that it's genuine. If that number does not come up in, you know, in this case in NGC, well, you you bought a a fakie. So the tools are out there, and I just think that some people just don't know where to go, and that's what we're here for. We want to help because uh we want to get these kinds of coins out of the out of the system, so to say.

SPEAKER_03 19:19

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, it's uh it's a tough space. Uh, but yeah, it's it's hard to replicate some of those, you know, coins. And definitely it's you know, if it's graded, you know, I'm sure there's there's a lot of safeguards, but yeah, like if they replicate like the the numbers or the barcode or yeah, the information can be you know pretty much identical, uh identical. Um but yeah, you can identify, you know, if you have the physical coin and there's a second replica out there, it's like clearly there's there's only one of those.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

Oh yeah, I've actually I've seen Dustin the uh I've seen a couple great you know slab bakies, and they're they they look great. Like you if you really couldn't say you wouldn't be able to tell unless you you know you you really do some looking the way that the that the that the the the these are sonically sealed, the encapsulation. Uh if you really look with the loop, you can see a little difference in the ones that are coming from China. Um but to the to the normal person, they get a let's say bought a sleeve of these, they get them, pull one out. Okay, that looks great. Back in the sleeve, they don't know they're not the wiser that they just spent you know X amount of money on a bunch of fake coins. And what's interesting is that now, Dustin, they don't they used to use uh um they used to use like different metals, so uh like ferrous metals or even non-ferrous metals, so that a magnet, you know, that's the first rule. I mean, I'm sorry I missed that, guys. I'm jumping a little bit, but have a magnet too, because just oh yeah put a magnet to it, and obviously if it you know if it's silver and a magnet sticks to it, it's not silver. Uh so that's a great little tool there. But um yeah, so I I I kind of lost my train of thought there going to the magnet, but uh the I would suggest uh going and using the graders. Uh and of course, reach out to me. You reach out to a professional. Uh if you're not sure about something you you you're looking to purchase, if the deal seems too good, you know. I tell one thing about this business is a lot of our customers, they I know they have other coin dealers that they work with. That's just the nature of the business for for the most part. So I you know, I always tell people just talk to me. I I I will at least give you, if nothing else, you'll you'll get good advice, whether you do business with me or not. Hopefully you do, but either way, I'm gonna give you honest, good advice. I think that's lacking in our world right now. So I'm gonna do my little part here with numismatics and investing in numismatics and make sure that you have a great experience. Um so learning about what to look for, learning about uh the most popular uh uh counterfeit coins, uh it's pretty easy to do, and uh having that information at your disposal will hopefully save you from some expensive mistakes that are not your fault. It's just how the world we live in now, and you just have to have you know have to have your uh your guard up, unfortunately. But that's what we're here for to help.

SPEAKER_03 22:46

Get a hold of us, uh, unidcoins gmail.com 561 3108341 at coinandcurrency.net get a hold of us. Alright, let's move on to some of the surface uh you know uh aspects. So I know there's a like understanding like clean and like original surfaces, um, you know, some of those like how to spot like um under magnification, uh like you know, checking if there's certain like you know alterations and whatnot. Uh what are some of like your you know takes on like how to look for those things?

SPEAKER_02 23:28

Well, you need a magnifying glass or a loop, first off, and then what you want to look for if you're buying raw coins, uh you you're gonna want to look if if the coins to me, a clean coin is pretty easy to spot out, but for someone who doesn't do this for a living, it might be a little more difficult. But you you'll actually see, even though this is a hard, well, it's not really that hard, silver is harder than gold, uh, but they still scratch easily. So you'll actually see the the scratch marks if they used like uh something that has a little bit of a a surface to it that you know just leaves these little scratch marks on the fields um of the coin, it's pretty easy to to look to to see, and to then you know that they they've been cleaned. And um speaking of clean coins, Dustin, it's I I was having a conversation the other day with uh someone who's in the business, and I've known him for for a long time, and I trust him. But he was telling me that um he has someone that just started working for him and who was working at some place in wherever it was, like I don't want to even say the state, but um they primarily sell like rolls, rolls of you know, peace dollars, rolls of Morgan's, rolls of Kennedy, you know, 1964 Kennedys or or Franklin's. And uh that's like what they would do, they had a big sink in the in the in this in their office, and they literally would get coins that were just heavily circulated, you know, a lot of grime on them, and they were just the sink was filled with coins and a solution, and they put them in there, and they had it literally a team of people cleaning the coins and then putting them in in the rolls, you know. There's 20 Morgans or Peace dollars or the other ones per roll. So they were selling them as BU, brilliant and circulated, when actually they were they were you know circulated, uh, you know, XF at most, extra fine, maybe fine. But the the money that you could charge for an XF as opposed to BU is is is a pretty large spread there. So when I heard that, I was just like, it's it's just incredible that that happened. But you know, I'm glad you asked that question because if anyone out there who's listening ever buys a roll of coins that the the dealer says are BU, brilliant uncirculated, or choice BU or Gem BU, uh, any of those, it doesn't matter. Take a few minutes and just see if you'll you see like just little scratching all over the the obverse and reverse. And uh if they just look too clean, you know, you you could kind of just tell when you've handled enough coins, like that's been cleaned. And unfortunately, that just you know, in that case, they're doing something that's in my opinion, fraudulent. They're that is a that is fraudulent. I mean, you're cleaning coins and you're trying to pass them off as BU when they're garbage. Um so I would always say that the a good rule of thumb would be to make sure that you're working with a dealer who is a member of the American Association, American Numismatic Association, uh, member in some sort with other organizations within the numismatic industry, uh PMG, uh you know, NGC, PCGS, we're authorized dealers for all these. So um working with a dealer who has uh those qualifications will help you out, and advice is free, at least it is with me. So going back to um to what to look for on the surfaces, I just brought up that story because you know the other thing was I had someone who I had a really nice couple come to my office the other day and they they had inherited a bunch of coins, and uh they were like, Well, you know, we were gonna clean them because a bunch of them have you know um toning on them, and so you know, silver tones. And so uh I was like, so anyone listening, never, never, ever, ever clean your coins. And my analogy analogy to that, Dustin, that's like if you bought a uh an antique piece of furniture and decided to sand it and restain it. Well, yeah, it's the same thing, you know, you're getting rid of the original patina that that piece has. So cleaning coins, but what's nice, and and I think a lot of people don't realize is that uh NGC and PCGS, they have uh conservation services where they will clean your coin when you submit it for grading. So it costs a few dollars more, but if you're submitting a rare piece, like let's say, you know, my my 1893 uh faky, you know, um San Francisco. If this was uh if this had stains on it, if it was dirty, I could send this in and I could use their conservation service, which they obviously know what they're doing. They're gonna clean it correctly and then then grade it. And the last time I did that, the piece I sent in, I don't remember, it was a it was an Abraham Lincoln piece. It wasn't a denominational coin, it was uh a token of some sort back from when he ran for uh president. Um but it was really cool, it was a half dollar and um well half dollar size silver, but it was it looked black and you could barely see any of the details on the coin. I was like, let me I'm gonna send it in, and they actually said they'll actually suggest it too, which is great. That the graders will be like, hey, you know, this coin, if cleaned by us, could bring a lot more value. Who doesn't want that, right? I mean, duh. So uh when I received the coin back, Dustin, I was shocked. It it looked so nice, it was just the luster coming off of it, it was just shiny, and you could see all the details in the coin on the obverse and reverse. And uh so that's a service that's offered there, and I I would I would use them to to your full advantage, and of course, use us, use it, use a dealer that you trust um to look for help you find, look for or weed out those coins that are deemed to be uh not genuine.

SPEAKER_03 30:15

Yeah, so so the someone doing it is frowned upon, but if the grading services do it, it's fine. So that's that's kind of what I hear.

SPEAKER_02 30:27

Well or the way the way they do it, I'm assuming well, because the grading service, they know what they're doing, they're professionals, right? Whereas like most people are gonna get a uh a silver coin and they're gonna put in some kind of solution or put some soap on it or something and just go like this and rub real hard, right? That's what creates the scratches.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

I see.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

Even if I rub this coin or a gold coin with uh with you know with this, which is for sunglasses, it's uh you know, real very soft uh fabric. If I rub enough, I'm not gonna rub the hard, but it'll leave scratches. If I take a loop, I'll see scratches, even from even from a microfiber like this. So um, yeah, let the pros do it. If you have something valuable that you want uh conserved conservation work done on it, let the pros do it. Now I know there are people out there that clean their own coins. I've done it before, and then sent them in for grading. Um, but I've only done it with coins that weren't too expensive. I I wouldn't trust myself to do that with, let's say, like uh, you know, a $50,000 or $100,000 coin. I'll leave it to the pros in that case.

SPEAKER_03 31:42

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, because if they if they make that decision, they're the ones grading it, so they know the difference. Correct.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

Yes, huge difference.

SPEAKER_03 31:54

And uh, yeah, that's good. Like um you know, having uh that particular coin still maintain its look like over the years, it's almost that the the not necessarily wear, but like the the surface toning or or you know being dirty over years has protected its luster, you know, like you mentioned with the fifty and the half dollar. Um yeah, so that's that's actually better rather than just you know individual trying to clean in, you know, just wipe it down because yeah, I'll lose a lot of that. Um so yeah, that's important. So yeah, I like I like that uh take.

SPEAKER_02 32:37

So you'll like this, you you'll like this, Dustin, um, because you and I have worked on on NFC chips before. Um PCGS uses several anti-counterfeiting measures, including a new generation of folders with NFC technology embedded in them.

SPEAKER_03 32:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 32:55

So yeah, we were we were playing around with that with our our uh digital twins of the coins with for ACDC Labs, where you can just take your phone and ping it, and then all the coins information shows up on your phone because it embedded NFC chip in there. So yeah, I mean they're they're making strides to to try to thwart the uh the threat, continued threat of of uh counterfeits. But unfortunately, it's just it's wide open. I mean, it's not slowing down. And with now you have um just there's more and more platforms, which is great. I love lots of platforms to sell and buy coin, buy and sell coins. But with more platforms doing this online, and a lot of this happens online, you're gonna get more fakes. It's just it's just gonna happen. So, you know, buyer beware. But there are tools out there, and there are dealers like me to uh to advise you, which we're more than happy to do.

SPEAKER_03 33:54

Yeah, it's important to talk to professionals and get a good you know understanding of how you know they do it rather than you know some someone that doesn't understand or or can you know damage you know products or buying it from you know an author unauthorized dealer or you know someone that doesn't have any credibility. You know, it's good to do a little research. So yeah, yeah, there's markets.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

And again, Dustin, it really goes back to uh if some if if someone sees something or if they're offered a a deal on a coin that's a an exceedingly rare coin and b at a price that doesn't seem to make sense right there. You it's not real. I mean, there's 99% of the time it's not going to be real. Probably 99.5% of the time, it's not gonna be a genuine coin. Um, so you know, again, it happens. It's just the the the thing is to learn from those experiences and not make those same mistakes again. And here's me saying that after professionally doing this for 16 years and buying uh, you know, still buying a coin. But I on that one I I kind of knew I was just gonna roll the dice. Yeah, I figured for three grand, I'll roll the dice. If it worked out, that would have been an absolute score. Uh you know, because I I've never, like I said earlier, I've never gone from procuring a raw coin of that caliber to sending it into grading and then having the graded coin and then selling it to one of our customers. And I might have even kept that for myself, to be frank. It probably would have gone in the old Madey collection there. So um yeah, but there again, there's lots of tools out there to use. Uh NGC and PCGS are really in the front lines trying to fight against uh this just wave of counterfeits coming into the country. Um dealers that are members of the organizations, like I mentioned, AA, uh authorized dealers of PCGS, NGC. Uh these are the people you want to work with. And of course, I would love for you to work with us. So by all means, uh give me a call. My direct line is 561-310-8341. It's not a toll-free number, it's not a number where a robot's gonna answer. It's me who's gonna answer that that that that call. So uh yeah, we're here to to assist in any way. We love building collections, we love building uh portfolios, alternative investments. Last week we had a uh we went over an hour on uh on uh self-directed IRAs, in particular precious metals back, self-directed IRAs. So we really are a one-stop shop for not only a wide array of numismatic coins and rare currency notes and other high-end collectibles, but also uh a great source for for just knowledge and and advice and uh all those things that are needed to make a uh an intelligent decision. Because listen, I don't want to buy, I don't want to spend tens of thousands of dollars on something and find out that it's not real. I mean, I don't know anyone who would want to do that, right? So take a few minutes, reach out to reach out to me, reach out to someone comparable to me, a dealer comparable, and uh we'll we'll we'll help you to then that's what we're here for. We we love what we do. I I can speak for myself that I love I love educating and helping our customers. And I've said it a million times to you, Dustin, off-air, I've said it on air, that an informed customer is a good customer, and that's what we strive to uh to do.

SPEAKER_03 37:59

Yeah, it's super important to be educated uh in any industry, really. Um, and having you know professionals and authorized dealers and eight a life members to to be there for you guys. It's very important to reach out. Um yeah. Here's our contact information again. Contact us direct line 561-310-8341 and get a hold of John. All right, let's uh let's get into some more questions before we wrap up for the day. Uh, we didn't really touch about artificial and natural toning. We talked talked about toning in general, but like what are some of the things you see like people that have like created like artificial toning, like like rainbow patterns and chemical heats uh using some tricks?

SPEAKER_01 38:47

Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah, so we uh let's talk about Morgan, tone Morgans, because that's a whole subset.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

And highly toned Morgans are they're they're they're pieces of art because everyone is is different, they're unique to themselves. And uh what they're the the what the term is is when you have a great amount of toning on the obverse and the reverse, they're known as monster toning. And monster toned morgans, um boy, I wish we would I would have sent you this graph earlier, but uh the percentage, the number of coins that are toned, number of morgans that are that are genuinely toned is it's I believe it's two decimal places over, so it's like 0.02 percent of Morgans actually get natural toning. And what causes that, there's different, excuse me, there's uh different reasons for for that toning to to happen. But one one key factor was when these coins were originally bagged, and this is something I've read in the past, but when they were they used to mint these coins, right? Let's that's let's say the Philadelphia mint. In this case, there's a San Francisco mint, but they'd mint them, and these coins would go in in large bags that would then be disturbed distributed to uh Federal Reserve banks, which then get distributed to local banks. Um these bags were canvas bags. Yeah, that's a that's a good image. Um, and certain chemicals in those in those canvas bags actually caused a chemical reaction to to create toning. So you'll see certain years of Morgan's that have more toning than others. So right off the top of my head, I I've seen many, many, many, you know, 1882, 1883, New Orleans, for some reason, a lot of New Orleans uh toned coins. Um, not as many San Francisco's. I've seen a good amount of Phillies. Uh when you get into certain years, there's no I've there's no toning. Off the top of my head, I'm not sure exactly which years, but we we actually have been one of the top dealers of toned morgans for years now. Uh they are wildly valuable. If you have morgans in your collection that are just sitting and they're toned, reach out to me because you could be sitting on a little gold mine there. Um, and then you have piece dollars, which should never tone. Uh there, it's very rare to have a toned piece dollar, but every once in a while we do get one. Going back to what you had originally brought up about uh what to look for. So a naturally toning coin, you'll see how the the colors flow, right? Um, it's not a quick jump from one color to the next. It's kind of like you see the rainbow in there, right? The the the um what's the word for that? The uh well, it's basically Roy G biv, right? Uh the all those different colors. That's what you see in in genuine toning. It's kind of a slow toning. The colors are uh they they kind of go from like up this top one, you see silver, and then you'll see different shades going to the next color, and then it ultimately is like a red with some blue in there. If you look at the coins that were artificially toned, now there's ways to do that. You could put uh a Morgan in a shoebox and put some kind of an acidic um item in there. Uh I've heard lemons be used before, uh, things like that, let them sit, and that acidity causes toning to occur. Heating up the coins, there you go. That that that that one's been heated, it looks like. Um so the heated up coin will get um doesn't have the same flow or consistency of color pattern changes. If you understand what I'm trying to get across, it's it's just like I don't even know how to really describe it other than what's on the screen there is that it just looks different. It's not that that slow bleed into different colors, it's just like boom, boom, one to the next. So um using uh acidic uh elements of some kind uh in a in a in a vacuum tones coins, but that's artificial toning. Um of course heating them, that tones coins. Um once they get sent in for grading, though, they'll they'll come back as artificial toning, or they just won't get graded at all. They probably grade them and just you know, I've sent one in recently, I don't have it with me, but it came back as you. Know whatever AU details artificial toning. So um there it's pretty easy to to once you've seen enough tone coins to kind of um pick out which ones are you know now sometimes you get weird toning where that might be real but I've never really seen that in my experience. I I it's just that you have that that nice consistent color pattern changing where that's just like splotchy and you know it's just doesn't look right in my mind. And then you have you know I love like nickels that get toned, they turn blue, they turn this beautiful like uh gunmetal blue, which I I pennies, pennies turn red, they turn blue. I've seen beautifully toned pennies. Um, of course, dimes, you know, because there you go. Look how cool that that top one looks. Um, of course, dimes, and uh yeah, so toned coins, like I said when I when I started this discussion about the toners, is that there's a large subset of investors and collectors who try to amass as many of these as they can, uh, because they are if you you know, if you have a highly toned Morgan silver dollar, especially on both sides, even if it's just uh a common date, let's say uh 1885, you know, uh San Francisco or you know uh yeah uh or Philly, um the coin itself might be worth let's say it grades out mid-state 63 or mid-state 64, a couple hundred bucks. But if it has amazing toning on the obverse and reverse, now you're looking at a uh a four thousand dollar coin, five thousand. I've seen them sell for much, much more than that. Fifteen, twenty thousand dollars for uh really toned, absolutely beautiful works of art. Like they're literally nature's artwork that take decades and decades and decades to create that level of toning, and that's why they fetch a large premium.

SPEAKER_01 46:21

Yeah, it makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 46:22

Yeah, I was uh I've I've seen the dimes. Here, I'll pull this up here. I've seen the toning of dimes. It's interesting, and the way that it's toned, you can tell that it is natural because it's in specific places and not like like the other ones that were artificial, like like you said, like splotched on there, like just a big old glob of like discoloration where you could see you know there's hints of like aging on the quarters, it's specific around the ear, in the head, not necessarily like in the middle of the face. So and like you can see around his his lips and like it's kind of underneath underneath the nose, like that's really specific. Um so yeah, that's interesting. There is a subset of people that are interested in toned coins, it makes sense. Oh yeah, it's you can create them, like it's just naturally occurring. Um and like how they are displayed is very unique. It's not you can't recreate that. So yeah, that's that's great. Like I I personally did even know that like I've seen coins that have been toned, but I never put two to two together. Like this is its own, you know, collectible, you know, identifier, you know. Um that's wow, interesting.

SPEAKER_02 47:49

And again, and that's why you see uh a lot of I you know I go online and I'll see a lot of toned um American silver eagles get toned, and some of them get beautiful toning. But uh you know, silver eagles, uh Morgan's, some peace dollars, because again, for whatever reason, peace dollars just don't tone, um, not like Morgan's. And I I really don't have the answer for that because they're both silver. I I actually should do a little more research into why that happens. Uh so when the peace dollars come up, they're like I said earlier, they're really valuable. Uh and of course, highly toned Morgans are very valuable. Um but yeah, I mean there's uh I go online and I see all these toners, and they're just you know, it's like adding insult to injury because I know not only is this coin fake, but it also has fake toning on it. You know? So it's just it's it's just it's just making it worse.

SPEAKER_01 48:47

It's terrible.

SPEAKER_02 48:48

Until people learn and and kind of learn what they're not learn a lesson, but learn about coins and learn to look at what they're look for, what they're purchasing and what to look for and all that good stuff, it's just gonna continue, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_03 49:03

Yeah, yeah, education's huge. Um yeah, looking looking up any of this information, yeah. It's it's not as common knowledge. Like, for instance, I'd even know you know the collectible aspect of tone coins, but I could see why. Um, and you know, it has its specific specificities of like why someone would you know seek out specific ones. Um it looks beautiful. Yeah, like the coloration and uh the blue nickels. I I've seen blue nickels as a child, like I didn't even think about you know oh really yeah, because I I collect a lot of like buffalo nickels and yeah, V V nickels um back in the 1800s, was it 1800s? Um early 1800 V nickels, I believe.

SPEAKER_02 49:53

Um yeah, yeah, I did all that mercury knives and half dollars and um so yeah, yeah, so there's a website if you ever want to look at it. It's monstertonmorgans.com.

SPEAKER_03 50:07

Yep, that was where we were at. Yeah, we were on that website here.

SPEAKER_01 50:10

Okay. Monster Monster Tone. I mean, they are just gorgeous. Yeah, they had some really good pieces. Uh let's see, share this time. Let's go back here. Oh yeah, they have they have a lot of resources on here.

SPEAKER_02 50:33

Nate natural versus artificial toning, color progression, famous bank bag hoards, value of tone organs, pricing tone morgans. It takes a little while to to kind of figure that stuff out. But I'll I'll tell you what, what's um oh this is what's great too is they have the uh color classification system for tone coins, and it kind of goes into where if you go to um monster toning and then go to all about tone morgans, oh yeah, you're there, and then you click on that uh go down, go down, keep going, and then you'll see uh keep going a little more.

SPEAKER_01 51:20

Otherwise Morgans are tone distinguishing. There you go.

SPEAKER_02 51:27

Oh, these are the colors that appear in after a certain amount of time.

SPEAKER_03 51:32

Oh how are cycles determined though? That's like a cycle.

SPEAKER_01 51:39

What's a cycle?

SPEAKER_02 51:42

It it has something to do with the uh I'm sure that scientists can know when the that progression of patina occurs.

SPEAKER_03 51:55

Yeah, like it breaks stone.

SPEAKER_02 51:57

It's a chemical reaction that's happening.

SPEAKER_03 51:59

Right. Yeah. Yeah, like some oxid oxidation or or just like wear, like water, like if I left a you know a coin in the in the rain for 50 years, you know, or it's just been sitting in some dusty drawer for you know grandparents gave to me or something. Um yeah, so yeah, interesting.

SPEAKER_02 52:26

That's depending on how your corn coins are stored.

SPEAKER_01 52:30

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 52:37

Yeah, humidifier like could be yeah, like temperature regulated vaults, you know, it could be held in you know, some type of security vaults, or like, you know, um, yeah, there's so many, so many ways that it could have been held. But like, yeah, where is that like what is the that would be a question I would have for somebody that knew more about like like what is the common reason? You know, is it just oxidation? I mean I would assume, but like, you know, if it was a coin that was in you know the water, if it was like a buried treasure, you know, some of those coins are towed as well.

SPEAKER_01 53:16

Um unless it's salt water. And salt water they don't they get eaten. No, they get eaten.

SPEAKER_02 53:25

That's why a lot of that's why most shipwreck coins are graded, and when they they their uh salt water effect it's called is a designation. Very it's not too common to have straight, like graded, you know, MS60 for uh eight real that was under the sea for 300 years. Normally there's salt water corrosion or saltwater effect. Uh but no, I get your point that it's just uh depending on where they were you know held. And I mean, I then that's what always fascinates me about this industry as well, is that there's literally treasure hidden. You know, in some grandma's attic, she might have uh her husband had 50, 100 rolls of Morgan silver dollars back from when they used to get but they would spit out at casinos because slot machines used to spit out Morgans back in the day. So yeah, yeah, that's pretty cool, right? And he just took them and put them up in the attic and they were forgotten about, and you know, years later you have a bunch of toned toned Morgans and other toned coins, and so I mean you could go really someone could go crazy collecting toned coins because they are so valuable in some cases. But I I do want to point out that you you know, depending, we we we can work with anybody, depending it doesn't matter what your budget is, right? Some people have a budget of a thousand dollars a month, some people have a budget with that we work with currently that spend $100,000 a month. So from here to here and everywhere in between, um, there are options for for you, and that goes into picking the right coins, which we really specialize in. Like that is our forte. We only get coins that are very low population, as you know, you know, you see them too. Uh low population, uh low mintage, and and high demand. And those are the coins that that really show returns. So, of course, with larger dollar amounts uh to spend, you can get into different levels of of uh collecting and investing in coins, obviously. Uh, but I just want to point out that there's something for everyone, and that all starts with a conversation.

SPEAKER_03 55:46

Yeah, just figuring out like uh you know, someone's uh you know how much money they're willing to spend, you know, like what type of coins they're wanting to collect. Um, you know, some of it could just be a simple coins, you know, if it's like nickels and quarters or like half dollars, uh, compared to like you know, high graded coins are like, you know.

SPEAKER_02 56:07

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And it and that's just having a conversation because we we need to find out what your objectives are. Is this purely for fun? Just collecting for fun? Is this for investment purposes? Uh yeah, what are your goals? What are you what are you looking to get out of this? So having that conversation right from the get-go really helps us to put the our customers in the right position to get the maximum amount of uh of value for their their hard-earned dollars.

SPEAKER_03 56:43

Yeah, that's perfect. That's that was a good segue for uh our next QA because that was a question I had previously was about collector's strategy. So you pretty much hit the nail of the coffin there. So that's good.

SPEAKER_01 56:57

Awesome. That's perfect.

SPEAKER_02 57:00

Uh yeah, so yeah, yeah. I did want to say one other thing because I know we're getting uh with that hour here. This hour goes by so fast. I mean, this is just so much fun doing. Uh I read an article yesterday that as of yesterday, central banks around the world own more gold than U.S.

SPEAKER_01 57:21

treasuries for the first time. Makes sense. I mean, sleep at the wheel, you know.

SPEAKER_03 57:29

That's I mean, you're gonna have quantitative easing and print out money for the world, they're gonna use it for some other reasons outside of just their economy. They're gonna maintain their stability of let me start it on QE.

SPEAKER_02 57:44

No, let me start on that QE. That was Bernanke's pet project that is now they're never getting rid of. Like that is part of our system.

SPEAKER_03 57:54

That's it. Like the printer goes burr when when we need it, so you know, can't go backwards. Buy commodities and hopefully it kind of balances out the economy. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 58:10

Absolutely, you have to have assets in in this kind of environment, you have to have hard assets. And so what we have is that's a hard asset, and it will it will shield your wealth uh uh against inflation, which will work is what Dust and I are talking about right now. More money, you print more money, you're gonna have inflation. I don't care what anyone says, that's just common sense to me. You you're you know, so um having having those having your hard-earned dollars in stuff that's gonna be a store of value and protect you against that, uh, those dollars being um diluted, uh this is a great vehicle for that. So yeah, please give us a call. Let's at least have a conversation and see if if there's a fit here for us to do something. Because again, whether you're looking to have a few million dollars in a in an amazing collection or a few thousand dollars in a great collection, we can help you with that. We can assist. It's just a phone call. I I I like phone calls, I like you know, I don't mind texting and emailing, but this kind of stuff when we're talking about how we're gonna spend your hard-earned dollars, a phone call I think is is important.

SPEAKER_03 59:31

Yeah, give us a call. Numbers right on the screen. And uh, yeah, we'll move into our QA here. We got a couple questions from the community uh before we wrap up for the day. Uh, what is the most realistic fake you've seen or purchase? Oof.

SPEAKER_02 59:53

I I I purchased a uh a 1943 penny uh a couple years ago. Uh this gal brought it in, her dad had collected. He had a real eclectic taste, uh, really cool things that he brought in. She actually, one of the things this is totally off subject, but she had she brought in a pen, Dustin. It was a little bigger than this, but it was a pen that that that uh spy agencies used back in like the 50s and 60s. Oh it was actually a gun. It was no bigger than yeah, it was a pen, but it was legit, and and it fit a 22 caliber short. Yeah, put it in there, and and it was wild. Like that the the plunger was the trigger.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:40

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:41

Yeah, she wouldn't sell it to me.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:43

I wanted it so bad, but for real. I would want that.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:49

It was cool, yeah. But um I she I saw that in 1943, and uh it's I was just like, wow, I've never had one. I got really excited, I bought it, and um it was. I mean, I did a ton of research. I I looked under a loop magnifier with that thing so many times, so many hours, I probably burnt out my left eye. Um it was genuine. Nope, it wasn't genuine, and it was perfect. I mean, perfect. But that's why you have the real experts, that's why you have the grading services. PCGS and NGC to make that determination.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:31

Nice. Oh, I hope that answered your question. Uh that yeah, that's that's gotta have the safeguards for sure. Um has any coins slipped through grading services like PCGS or NGC that get graded?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:48

Um I mean so I think I think I might know what he's talking about. I've had I actually have a little here's an this is another subset of of the community in collecting. I and I do it. I have coins that are that have slipped through NGC or PCGS that shouldn't grade a 70. And uh whether it's a a big scratch on the coin or a divot or something that I see after the fact, and um so yeah, it does happen. Coins do get through that shouldn't be 70, but it's it's not often. But actually, people collect NGC and PCGS's mistakes. Oh, and they're worth money, which is kind of crazy.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:38

It's just always some subset of collectors are interested in errors and a subset of a subset with subset with subset. It's yeah, I think I think uh uh any collection or collecting uh in any industry is it's very similar. Um Pokemon industryfeits, even the counterfeits of like early 90s, you know, counterfeits, people are like, yeah, we want those, we want those counterfeits. Yeah, it's like okay, yeah. Those those are sought out for, so yeah, I I get it, but yeah, it's I I wouldn't want any fake coins that are graded, but you know, I guess if it's valuable, but I wouldn't uh it's not something I seek out, personally. Um that makes sense. Well, I'll have to answer your question. Um, it sounds like yeah, sometimes they do make mistakes, they're humans. It's hard to, you know, if there's some AI grading service out there, it would be kind of hard to like determine, you know. So uh you know, human human errors uh it's gonna happen sometimes, but it doesn't sound like it's common. Um we'll wrap it up today, you guys. We're here at the hour, 10 minutes over, a little bit longer than usual, but uh we got some good information around toting, counterfeiting, uh you know, edge rainbow, you know, the look, the um specific subsets. Uh I personally learned a lot. I hope you guys learned a lot too. Uh, we're here every week, Thursdays, 1 p.m. Eastern. You can find us on Facebook, X, uh, Instagram's kind of we're working on that. Instagram, we're supposed to be on there, but we're not. Uh, YouTube, uh, you can find us on all our major social media platforms. So uh feel free to ask questions. Our Q ⁇ A is always open. This week we did have the link shared, so we may do that again where our audience can jump on possibly. We'll see how that works. Um, and uh come by and grab ask questions. No question is a dumb question. We're all learning from each other, and that's important to ask professionals such as John here. Um, and I am Dustin Lee, head of social media here at American Foint Currency. We're here with John Beatty, CEO, founder of American Foint and Currency. And you guys have a great day, and we'll see you guys on the next one. Stay sharp, stay curious, and keep collecting smart. We'll see you on the next one, guys.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:06

One second, Dustin.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:08

Oh, we're gonna wrap up.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:09

What do we got?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:10

Real quick, I just thank everyone for tuning in and listening to us. Uh, I do hope you everyone learned a little something. Uh, that's really what we're here for. I do want to give a little teaser. Next week, we're having a special guest on uh this gentleman. He is the real deal treasure hunter. He's been on on the bottom of the seafloor, literally picking up Spanish treasure in the Bahamas off the Mount Maravellus shipwreck. His name is Richard. He'll be joining us next week to go over his tale and tell us a little bit more about his exciting life. Back uh I believe this was back in the 70s when he was a part of that salvage team that discovered the shipwreck and then pulled off, pulled out, I should say. Uh I don't know how. Many tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars worth of treasure. But uh yeah, that's next week. Uh so please tune in. It'll be a really, really interesting discussion we're gonna be having.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:13

For sure. Yeah, I forgot about the closing thoughts. Sorry about that. No, that's that's great. That's great. Um, yeah, I'm glad that you shared that because uh we're gonna be having some some interesting guests going forward. We had uh Rachel with us uh from the intrus group last week, so you checked that uh previous stream as well as our next week's episode where we're really seeing more information next week. So uh stay tuned for more and uh yeah, we're excited to to have on some new guests.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:41

All right. Thank you all. Have a great day. Thanks, everyone. Have a great day.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:49

You've been listening to American Coin and Currency live podcast. Make sure to like and subscribe. Protect your wealth with American Coin and Currency by giving us a call at 561 310 8341 or send us an email at you need coins at gmail. That's you need coins y O U N E E D C O I N S at Gmail.com. Thank you and take care.