Visual Noise: Walls Talk - Chris Dokebi

Episode 8 of Visual Noise: Walls Talk brings hosts TRP613 and Urban Ninja face-to-face with the wildly creative world of Chris Dokebi, a street artist, sticker bomber, wheatpaste artist, and toy maker whose mischievous goblin characters have been causing trouble—in the best possible way—wherever they appear.

Known for creating a cast of quirky, chaotic goblins, Chris Dokebi has developed a style that instantly grabs attention. Whether they're peeking out from a sticker on a utility box, taking over a wall through a wheatpaste, or coming to life as hand-crafted designer toys, his goblins seem to have personalities all their own. Equal parts playful, weird, and rebellious, they perfectly capture the spirit of street art.

In this episode, Chris shares the origins of his goblin universe, how these mischievous characters evolved over time, and what inspires him to keep expanding their world. The conversation dives into the crossover between street art and toy culture, exploring how a character can exist in multiple forms—from the streets to the collector's shelf.

TRP613 and Urban Ninja talk with Chris about sticker culture, the thrill of finding the perfect spot for a piece, and the unique challenge of building a recognizable character brand while staying true to the DIY roots of street art. They also discuss the process of designing and producing toys, giving listeners a behind-the-scenes look at the work that goes into turning a sketch into a collectible figure.

Filled with stories, laughs, and plenty of goblin mischief, this episode highlights an artist who refuses to be limited to a single medium. Chris Dokebi's creations are a reminder that street art isn't just something you see—it's something that can grow into entire worlds and communities.

Tune in to Episode 8 of Visual Noise: Walls Talk and enter the strange, fun, and slightly chaotic world of Chris Dokebi and his army of mischievous goblins.

Music credit:

“Funk Groove Music” by Alex Gus via Pixabay

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:08

What's up everyone? Welcome to the podcast visual noise wall talk ninja trip here. What's up, ninja? Hey, what's up? How you doing? I'm good, man. Sunny day. It feels like maybe winter's over. I don't know. It actually hailed yesterday. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. So you never know. Yeah, you'll never know.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Uh, you want to introduce our guest uh today? Yeah. Today we have Chris Dokoby. We've collaborated before, so uh now it's good to actually get to talk to you. I'm excited about this.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Yeah, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

Can you uh tell the listeners where you're from, what you do, a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Yeah, so Chris Dokoby, I'm from kind of all over the place, from Queens originally, but grew up moving around a lot. Spent some time in Mexico for a few years when I was a kid in Chicago, Minnesota, as an adult, lived in Seattle for a little bit, and just in Denver for the past three years, and we just moved to Michigan. Were your parents like in the army or yeah, exactly? Uh um business brats. So we just kind of and my my dad always liked to travel, and so he kind of got jobs that allowed us to hop around.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Out of all those places that you've been to, do you have a preference?

SPEAKER_00 1:21

No, you know, I get asked that a lot, and I think there's really cool places. There's things that I like about each place for different reasons. So, like I really miss the Pacific Northwest for the the air and the Pacific Northwest air and the rain and kind of that like creepy gloom. I really enjoyed. Love New York City for the art and the food. Um, Chicago's too cold for me, and that's kind of where I got started. So um, there's always a lot of love for Chicago and that. I mean, I was just in Denver and um I had never been there before, and I really loved being out there, and um that art scene was super welcoming. Like I just kind of came in and people seemed stoked, and so that was really cool to kind of just jump into a bunch of different stuff right off the bat. I don't know if I have a favorite spot.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

As for art scene, what I guess New York would be the best, right? You'd say?

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Yeah, I think it's uh I think it's depending. I just I was at different stages of life, so I was better at getting plugged in at different times than others. Um, when I moved to Seattle, I was like 22, I want to say, and I was just getting back into like stickering and posters and stuff. I hadn't really done a whole lot. I was living abroad teaching for a little bit, and so I just hadn't played around with that kind of stuff. I didn't have a lot of money, I was working at like a homeless youth shelter, and so I kind of used stickers and wheat paste to kind of explore the city. So that was really fun for me as like a as an activity to do late at night, just kind of wandering around and finding different spots. I have family in New York, so we just kind of grew up going back and forth to New York. I've been following like Chris RWK and Zero Pro since I think I was like 18. Big fans. So when I got the chance to move to New York, I was just pumped to try and like go there and and meet them and try and get seen and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

So you did, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Yeah, yeah. We we actually after I after I left New York, uh, I went back for a festival and I got to finally meet Chris. I I had been working a bunch of jobs out there, and so I just kind of ended up being really busy and didn't get as plugged in as I would have loved to. So we we've kind of developed a bit more of a relationship post me living there, which is fine.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Chris will be on the show sometime. We're working on it. Yeah, yeah. Um, are you a full-time artist or yeah, uh you have a yeah?

SPEAKER_00 3:32

I got a well, I have a day job. Uh, I'm a graphic designer and illustrator for a brewery. Um, and then I do a bunch of freelance stuff, variety of different companies and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

Cool. Are there any recent street artists out there that inspire you or you like?

SPEAKER_00 3:47

I mean, not recent, but when I was in Denver, I feel like that scene. So if you go on the East Coast, right, it's kind of a lot of the same folks, whether you're in New York, Philly, Boston, DC. Yeah. Um, and so it was kind of fun to go out to to Denver and see some people that I just didn't know before. So one person I ended up collaborating with is uh Dream Fiend. He's uh he's an apparel designer, fashion guy, and then also does some work in like the street art sticker scenes. And so we just did a collaboration on some hoodies and some custom skateboards, which was really cool. But he's uh he's someone I just met through like tagging pictures of stickers that I found while we're exploring around, and then we ended up thinking, Oh, we know a couple of the same people, and so that was a really fun way to kind of connect. He does some really cool stuff.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Okay. What's your most memorable experience while doing street art? Is there one that kind of stands out that uh, you know, you're putting up stickers or you know, painting?

SPEAKER_00 4:38

I've got two in my head right now. I think one was probably earlier on when I was in high school, when I first started getting kind of into it. Uh, we lived in like a suburb of Chicago, and um, the train line to downtown Chicago ran through our neighborhood. I moved there from Minnesota and I made friends with some graph kids. We started running around on those track areas getting up to stuff. And um that was one of my first wheat paste posters because most of them were painting, you know, doing like throwies and stuff like that. And uh I was a little less experienced in that area. So I had just drawn stuff on paper and I brought something out, and that was like one of my first, I think it was um, it's like a light bulb octopus kind of characters, like instead of the bulbous head was in a light bulb. But I think that was my first weight, if I remember correctly. But I just remember it going up in kind of a weird spot and there's no other paste around, and I probably broke some rules of covering up somebody at some point because I was like 16. And then I looked back, I think back on that one now, I'm like, that was kind of a weird piece, but it's just kind of a fun one to have in my head. Um and then recently I went, I was back in last spring, I was back in Seattle, and I was I just hit up um Pike's Place Market, and they've got that big alley posters and stuff like that. And so I put up, I printed out some really big ones and uh threw those up and ended up talking to some people that were just like, Oh, hey, we we know your work. I was like, really? Cool. And so we just kind of chatted for a little bit and we traded some stickers, I put some big stuff up, and then um I hit a couple. I've been making these resin magnets of my characters, yes, hiding them around for people to find. And so I put a couple of those up and I tagged them that night, and someone had found them next morning was like, Hey, part of your poster was peeling off. I went back and fixed it for you. I was like, Oh, cool. Thanks, appreciate it. This is a fun community piece. And I hadn't been back in Seattle in maybe four or five years, so it was really cool that people were like, still knew who I was and was excited to see some of my work and didn't feel like I was imposing.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

This is kind of like you had you talked about you doing this, but how do you feel when someone covers your stuff on the streets?

SPEAKER_00 6:42

I don't really care. I know some people I I don't mind if people take offense to it. I and I try my best not to. When I first moved to Denver, I did say it was really welcoming. There was one month where I kept finding someone had ripped off the heads of all my characters on like one street, and it was it was really cool. Like just how they had done it, I don't I don't know, because some of them were like uh eggshells, and so they they must have put some work into it. And so I'm sure I did something inappropriate that I didn't recognize. But I mean, I got I I got a lot of stickers, like it's part of the game. Sometimes there's not enough space. I get it. If you cover up mine, that's fine. I got more. If you feel the need to scratch it out, that's fine. I'm sorry, I got more.

SPEAKER_02 7:25

Like someone in my city, like it looks like they have like catnails and they just like scratch the shit out of it, you know, and it's just like they don't even peel it off. Like they're vinyl stickers, like just peel it off, you know? Yeah, just it's like, and I kind of like it, it kind of looks cool, but yeah, yeah, stupid. I I agree with you. I you know, just put up more stickers, you know, people want to cover you, cover you, like and I do my best too to not cover people and ninja's the same.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Yeah, and there's something cool to like a fully crushed wall, I think. Like something that's just I mean, I think New York is really good at that, about having these areas that are just absolutely destroyed in the really Montreal's good too.

SPEAKER_02 8:05

I don't know if you've been to Montreal, but uh man, there's just some areas that are just annihilated and it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

It's kind of fun. And then at that point, you're just building layers, right? You're just how far you can get out until the wall falls off. Yeah, definitely. Did you guys ever see um fish invasions? He had a t-shirt where they where he made the scratched-out version of his sticker. He like took a photo of it and put it on his shirt. No, it was really cool. It was like uh it was one of his classic eggshells, and he'd just taken the photo and pulled the background out, and so it's just black and white, but it's just kind of scratched out and it's kind of his stuff.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

Yeah, I love his stuff. Um, he can he travels like crazy too.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

Like oh, yeah, it seems like he's you know, everywhere. Everything he does is like regional. I love to do that, like making stuff for wherever he goes. Like he does his research and he makes something really cool and unique for the area. I think that's just yeah, yeah. Seems like a great way to go into a new space and do it.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Very clean, too. I find all his stuff is very clean, you know, cut out, you know, his placement's always high up and big and just well thought through.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

And he's um, like you, if you have any questions, he'll he'll answer them and like he's really good at that.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Oh, yeah. I need to chat with him. I haven't reached out to him.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

Yeah, like even like I remember he went to Cuba and I was going like the next week, and I just like randomly just reached out to him. I says, Hey man, how's Cuba with the police and everything? He's like, fine, people were helping me police shit up, like you know, no problems at all. I'm like, Oh, okay, that's hopeful. That's cool.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

He's European, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:32

He's based out of Yeah, uh from Rome, I believe.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

Okay. How do you define success as a street artist?

SPEAKER_03 9:39

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

I think for me it goes back and forth a little bit of. I mean, it started off just wanting to have fun, right? Like it was a it was a creative, fun way to explore a new city that I didn't have any people in and didn't know very well. And then part of it gets a little competitive, right? Trying to like keep up with other artists that you see. I think there was a moment where I got lost in the trying to make a little bit of money out of it, which is unfortunate. Money helps. I mean, money helps. I I I it funds itself, which is very nice, but um, I think it lost a little bit of the creativity in it. So I think trying to make sure it base it's always still fun for me. Yeah, um, especially since I have a day job and I got a kid and things like that. Like there, there's other things I have to focus on that aren't I hear you. Just how many stickers can I print and put up around whenever I go to visit.

SPEAKER_02 10:31

I'm always happy just to sell a little bit to cover the cost because I don't think people really understand when you know you're a sticker artist, how many stickers you give out and how many you put up and how much of your own money goes into it, you know. Like people, my kids' friends are always like, Oh, stickers, stickers. I'm like, Yeah, whatever, you know, but they don't realize like, you know, each sticker is like 25 cents, 50 cents, and you know, you're so it's nice to get a little bit of money back.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Totally. Yeah, and I think Denver was really nice for that because they have they have a fairly strong sticker culture. I think just the outdoors scenes or so many like outdoor brands with their own stickers. Everybody's got a water bottle covered in stickers or like a truck or something like that. And so it was I found it easy to sell them. They were very used to like the prices and stuff like that, so markets and things like that. So, yeah, as long as you can cover the cost of taking them. I don't I'm I'm down for trades and stuff like that. I don't like handing them out for free as much unless I meet someone in person. I get some people hitting me up on Instagram to just mail them 20 stickers to Croatia. And I'm like, yeah, is it a show? No, it's just for my collection. Well, uh buy some.

SPEAKER_02 11:40

Yeah, buy some.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

Yeah, yeah, buy some.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

I always check their Instagram too to see like, are they are they like sticker artists? Are they putting up the stickers? Or are they just gonna go into a fucking black book and no one will ever see them? And yeah, you know, it's like the you know, I I don't trade very much anymore.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

I used to, but and I love that culture of the sticker trade. I just after a certain point you can't afford to constantly hand out everything for free. So for us, it's like twenty dollars to ship to Australia, yeah. That too. Yeah, like it's some good festivals in Europe that I like to send stuff to, and then in there I'll just throw in a bunch of slaps, and that I figured they'll hand them out to people, and that's a good way to kind of spread them around. But yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

I know you kind of mentioned this on City Kitties, but your character, very, very unique character. Just tell the origins of that.

SPEAKER_00 12:27

They are so Adobe in Korean culture or folklore are like these mischievous troll goblin-e spirit characters, and so being Korean, uh, that was kind of part of a piece that came up a little bit accidentally. Like they originally I was just drawing monsters, hadn't come up with the name. I was just putting up random stuff, and then I had come home um to Chicago for Christmas or something like that. And I was like, I need to consolidate a little bit, come up with a name. And my grandmother came up with the name for me. She was like, oh, Doku Beat's like this, the start. I was like, Oh, yeah, because she had told me stories as a kid and stuff like that. So it felt like something that was true to me and still unique, and then my stuff isn't also overly Korean because I'm not, you know, I'm half, so it's it wasn't like a straight-up copy of what they actually look like in sculptures and foot. Like I have a bunch of old art from Korea of Dokabetes, but they don't really look a ton like this outside of the fangs and the horns and stuff. So it's kind of my modern interpretation of the pieces. And then uh as I did moved around, they kind of changed a little bit. I really like the idea of the masks. I have a small collection of masks that I like, so I was just kind of playing around with that. And then I get asked a lot about like what do they look like under the masks, and I'm not gonna, I don't have that. Yeah, no one gets to see it. So yeah, I it was it was originally kind of uh a fun project and or like a personal thing, and I was like, oh man, this is a good name, it's kind of unique, and it stuck. I I mean I I started doing graffiti when I was 16, and so I've had a lot of different other names since then, and this is one that like once we kind of set it and I was like playing around with it, I was like, Oh, this feels like an actual identity piece.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

Cool, very cool. Yeah, I love the energy from them, like your your character.

SPEAKER_02 14:17

Yeah, true. Yeah, they do seem like they're moving, but they're not, obviously. You know, they're always in movement. Yeah, yeah. Do you have a go-to excuse if you get caught putting up stickers? Like for me, I always go to the like uncovering swastikas or dicks, uh, just because I feel like no one's gonna get upset if you're you know, oh, you're covering a swastika. Oh, that makes sense, you know. That's a good one.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

I can feel that actually.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

Uh unless you run into like a Nazi and then you're like, okay. Now you gotta fight him, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

No, I don't, I've never really had, I've been like chewed away and I've been yelled at from a distance, but I've never had to come up with anything on the spot for this stuff. When I was 16, I ran a lot in like but I'm I'm older and out of shape. So I feel less about that. Yeah, I don't know. I'm trying to think if I've had any good excuses. I think I've I've pretended to be. I had someone come up to me and started just kind of casually asking um a couple times, and I've pretended to be almost like an employee of Chris Dokabi. Like I was like, oh yeah, I'm part of a crew, we do this artist in town, we put up this stuff, and they're like, Oh, I like this. I didn't know off the top of that. But then they always be like, Oh, well, we really like the stuff.

SPEAKER_03 15:39

And now I'm like, it's me, it's me. So I just haven't got to.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Well, here's some stickers from him. I don't know. I just kind of play it off like that. And I do hand out, like I do send, I have some friends in different cities that do put up posters for me. Theoretically, someone could run into somebody putting up my work like that, but I think that's the only I haven't had anybody actually be super aggressive about it yet.

SPEAKER_02 16:01

That's good, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

Knock on wood, knock on wood, everyone out there. Yeah. Who was the the first street artist that you've met in person?

SPEAKER_00 16:10

That I met in person. I mean, outside of like my hoodlum friends at 16 years old.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

Yeah, like someone that like I guess you were talking on Instagram or whatever, any social media, and then you made arrangements to finally meet, or you were at a show and then you just like, oh my god, you know?

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Yeah, I feel like I think big for me, big was Chris, RWK at five points. Um, I met some other folks out in Seattle, um, but I hadn't known their work beforehand. We we happened to like meet, there's a couple graph shops out there, and so we just kind of met up for like events and group sticker things. Um, but for me, Chris, especially since I saw his work really young, he was like one of the first guys that's like, oh, this is cool, this is a big deal. It's like, oh, here's a t-shirt and some stickers. I'm just a big fan, I don't want to take up your time because he's at a booth. He's like, Oh, cool. Well, I know you here, here's a t-shirt. It's like, oh, and I ran, I ran back to my wife. I was like, I got so much stuff from Chris. He's so cool. He wants to collaborate on a sticker. So that was really fun. And then we made a toy out of that sticker, which was really cool. So amazing. Um yeah, I think probably Chris. And then um, and then City Kitty was another one that was big for me because I think it opened up my I think I met, I like found out about you through City Kitty, and then I actually moving to Ann Arbor, Michigan, which was and started going out to Toronto a couple times, and I started seeing your work. I was like, Oh, I do know I know these guys, I've seen like some of this work. And so I think that's how I eventually reached out to you at some point.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Yeah, love that collab. Yeah, it was a good one.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

That's a fun one. You had you had been like playing around with a couple 3D stuff.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

Yes, I'm I still am. Uh, right now I I have like the just the 3D head, kind of like what you and Rek Skulls does, like just the face. I did have figures of my character, but I do want to go back to that for sure.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

I've just been playing a little bit more and I was like, I wonder if Ninja got that one built out because it would be fun to do our character at least as just like a render. I think that would be a really fun render with uh the goblins on them and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 18:08

Definitely. Yeah, that's a great idea for sure. What do you think people feel or think about your work when they see it on the streets?

SPEAKER_00 18:15

I've gotten a lot of feedback that people just find it a lot of fun, which I really appreciate. I agree. Um, couple shows I was I did in in Denver, and people come up to me and you know, I draw sketching black books and stuff like that. Like, oh, I love your work, thanks. And and I think, yeah, I think fun was just kind of the word that kind of kept coming up, whether they were older guys who felt like my work was reminiscent of like late 90s, early 2000s cartoons, which made me feel really good. Yeah, or or younger kids just being like, Oh, this is really fun. Like, I really like I I really like that because that I mean, like we said, I said the goal for me is is for it to be fun for me. So it's it's nice that other people are just enjoying it too. I never would have thought really other people would care. So it's really cool to see people like get pumped about it.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

Sure, yeah. I think it's fun. It's I think it's engaging, colorful. Thank you. You know, I see your stuff, it makes me smile.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

So yeah. Yeah, I love the the silk screen stuff, like it looks amazing. Yeah, the the different colored outlines. Very cool.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Thanks. I agree. Yeah, I'm trying to get a little bit more into making making sure I get the handmade process in there. I think there was a while where everything became digital because that was the quickest way for me to make it into stickers. Yeah. But I prefer, I mean, I draw everything by hand first and then throw it in procreate. So might as well do some more of the handmade stuff. So the screen printing.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

So your stuff is not um vector?

SPEAKER_00 19:38

No, uh, I I eventually turn it into vectors, but I I draw it all out by hand first. So I I sketch everything out and then I do like one pass of like a sharpie or an inked version, and that'll usually like define most of the shapes, and then I'll throw it on to Procreate, or I just started playing around with Adobe Fresco, which draws a vector.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Um how do you like that program?

SPEAKER_00 20:01

I like it. It's a little I haven't quite gotten used to it yet. There's like an aspect of the pen tool that like it expands, like it almost bleeds.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

And so it's not as precise. I haven't got figured out how to get it as precise as I want it to with like a fine point.

unknown 20:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Um, and I'm actually I'm working on a collab with RX Skulls right now on my downtime. And I've just I've been trying to do it on X. And he talked about like blowing it up for some wheat paste. And I'm like, all right, I need it to be vector because it's gonna be big. I got I might as well just start it off right at this point instead of like image tracing it in Illustrator. So I'm yeah, yeah, I'm trying to get I'm trying to get my hand to work on that.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

Got it. Yeah, because your stuff does apply very well for vector for sure.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Yeah, yeah. So that's why it eventually makes I think if it's gonna be like smaller scale, I don't mind dropping it into Illustrator and and image tracing it. But um, some of the bigger stuff, I just know it's I'm I'm gonna want it real clean.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Of course. How do you handle yourself around people when you're putting your stuff up on the streets? Like do you get uncomfortable or you don't care?

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Uh, I think it depends where I'm at. So, like, I think certain neighborhoods people seem to care less in certain times of day, right? So Denver has a couple neighborhoods where you can kind of go at any point at night, and people are pretty occupied with drinking and walking around. And so I can put up big posters on the main street, no one would really care. And same with like New York, right? New York, everyone's kind of running around, anyways, in a lot of parts. So I feel like there's a lot you can get away with. I'm in uh a smaller city now in Michigan, and so now I'm a little bit like there's not a ton of stickers in this area. Do they care? Will they like I don't know how much effort they put into like keeping that track? So I've I've been a little more cautious here, but I think for the stickers, mostly I can't imagine people really care. I don't know. I just haven't had a ton of experience with people getting really mad at me outside of like a few storefront owners yelling at me from like a block away and walk away and shrug. I don't know. Like there's I don't know, it's it's there's there's not a ton. I mean, I try and be careful with the with the posters and stuff like that. I talked to City Kitty a lot about it, and he's like, most of the time the cops don't even know what you have, right? Like if you get pull you up posters and a bucket full of white goo and some paintbrushes or gloves, like it just looks weird and nobody really knows what it is. Yeah. And when I I was in Denver, I actually I've been doing this for a while where I would dress up more normally. Like when I was in high school, it was to feel cool. It was like a black hoodie pulled all the way up, gloves and all black. You look suspicious as hell and you run around, right? So now you just you put on something kind of nicer and you look like you're going out or you're going to work or something like that. And no one's paying attention to me as much as I think that they are when I'm going.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

So that's totally true. I always think the same, and you know, you just try to blend in and not look shady, don't have a hood on, don't have a mask on, just kind of it's like you're supposed to be doing it.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

It's so yeah, it's it's fun to wear the I I ran into a like a real graph kid in Denver when I was on I was on like a side of a dumpster, kind of on a half roof, putting up a big poster, and like a kid came by and he had the full backpack, black hoodie, mask, everything. And we kind of looked at each other and was like, hey, and kind of like did one of these and like ran away. And it was yeah, I feel like that's the age for that, and especially what you're doing. You want to make sure you cover your face, but I don't know. They catch me, I'll scrape it off the wall for them. It's fine.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Yeah, exactly. It's it's not permanent.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

Any any last words to leave the listeners with?

SPEAKER_00 23:30

Advice? Advice. Yeah, I've been really into getting off my phone, especially for art stuff. If you're drawing and things like that, I have a couple friends with like some middle school age children, and they keep asking me how I get ideas, and they've been showing me all the stuff that they're looking at on Instagram. And I I don't know if a good idea for me has ever really come off of scrolling through Instagram. I'm a big advocate of uh of being bored and like letting that creativity flow and having a sketchbook that you fill with mostly crap, and every now and then something really good comes through because you just got to keep drawing and drawing and keep that work.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

Yeah, well said, Matt. It's true. Boredom is good. Analog. Go back to analog.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Especially with everything coming at you fast and AI and stuff. It's just better to try to quote something new.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

Yeah. That's great. Thanks so much for joining us today on Visual Noise Walls Talk. See you next time.