You Are Not Your Worst Moment: How God's Grace Rewrites Your Story with Danielle E. Bernock

www.thegraceforge.com

Have you ever sat in church, heard the word grace, and still walked out feeling like you had to earn God's approval? Author and relationship repair specialist Danielle E. Bernock spent 35 years knowing in her head that God loved her — before she finally believed it in her heart.

In this conversation, Karen and Danielle explore what grace really looks like when it unfolds through the hard things: childhood trauma, substance abuse, religious wounds, fear of God, and the confusing push-pull of disorganized attachment. Danielle uses a stunning image to describe it all — the Persian buttercup, a flower with 100 to 130 paper-thin petals that open one by one. That's grace. Not a formula or an acronym. A living, blooming thing.

Together they talk about what it means to stand in your worst moment and discover God is not reaching for a stone — He's reaching for you. And why the answer to life, the universe, and everything might just be grace.

In this episode you'll hear:

• Why trauma and religious wounds make it so hard to truly receive God's love — and what healing actually looks like
• What "disorganized attachment" is and how it shows up in your relationship with God
• The prayer from Zephaniah that Danielle calls out loud every time she hears a siren
• A story about a little boy covered in motor oil — and why it's one of the most powerful pictures of grace you'll ever hear
• Why grace doesn't give people a "license to sin" — and what really changes when you encounter it face to face
• How God redeems your worst seasons to make you the exact person someone else needs

About Danielle E. Bernock: Danielle is a multi-published author, speaker, and relationship repair specialist who helps people heal their relationships with themselves, others, and God. She is the author of Emerging With Wings: A True Story of Lies, Pain, and the Love That Heals (celebrating its 12th anniversary) and is currently working on her next book. She also offers a free audiobook, Love's Manifesto, on her website.

Connect with Danielle: Website (all socials linked here): daniellebernock.com Free audiobook: Love's Manifesto — available at her website

Referenced in this episode:

• Hebrews 4 — "Come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need"
• Zephaniah — "Grace, grace" (the capstone prayer)
• The Wonderhunt video Something Stronger (highly recommended — search it on YouTube)
• The story of the woman caught in adultery — John 8
• The parable of the prodigal son / the Good Father — Luke 15

TIMESTAMPS

• [00:00:00] Hook question and introduction
• [00:00:25] Welcome to The Grace Forge podcast
• [00:00:40] Karen welcomes Danielle E. Bernock
• [00:01:01] The Persian buttercup: Danielle's metaphor for how grace unfolds one petal at a time
• [00:02:13] A prayer at a wedding that planted the first seed of understanding grace
• [00:05:23] 46 years of marriage, deciding not to have children — trusting God anyway
• [00:06:06] Trauma, substance abuse, and the fear of having children
• [00:06:49] Religious trauma and spiritual abuse: when you're terrified of the God you need
• [00:08:25] Disorganized attachment explained: the "needy, go away" cycle with God and people
• [00:10:01] Moving to Arizona: God introduces Danielle to herself
• [00:10:33] The CDs that changed everything: discovering grace through a guest minister
• [00:11:17] Sarah and Hagar unpacked: old covenant of works vs. new covenant of grace
• [00:12:51] What is GraceForge? Karen explains the Hebrews 4 vision
• [00:13:48] "Grace, grace" — praying the Zephaniah scripture over ambulances and firetrucks
• [00:15:46] Karen shares her experience as an adoptive mom raising kids from trauma
• [00:16:35] What it truly means to know — not just understand — that you are loved by God
• [00:17:09] 35 years to believe the love of God: Danielle's honest testimony
• [00:18:06] The woman caught in adultery: God doesn't identify us by our worst moments
• [00:19:10] Something Stronger: the story of a boy covered in motor oil and a father's arms
• [00:22:31] Does grace give a license to sin? The hyper-grace conversation
• [00:24:26] How God redeems our worst moments to make us the right person for someone else
• [00:24:53] What Danielle does now: books, coaching, relationship repair specialist
• [00:26:48] How to connect with Danielle: daniellebernock.com
• [00:27:32] Final takeaway: the grace of God is for YOU — because God said so
• [00:28:22] Karen's closing reflection: what changes when you finally accept you are loved

Want to be a guest on The GraceForge Podcast? Send Karen Dittman a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/1733503318442796293a1fecb

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Do you believe that God loves you, but maybe struggle to actually feel it? What does it take to go from knowing this truth in our heads to being truly convinced of it in our hearts? My guest today, Danielle Burnock, talks about how she learned to fully accept the love of God, not just because I know what the words mean, but because I really believe it. Welcome to the Graceforge podcast. I'm your host, Karen Ditman, and this is the place to be reminded that when life brings the impossible, God doesn't just show up, He forges exactly what you need to walk through it. Danielle, hi, and welcome to the Graceforge podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Oh, thank you. I'm excited to talk about grace as such a powerful force in my life.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

It it truly is, yes. So I'm gonna invite you to just jump in and start by sharing your story about how you saw God work in your life by his grace.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Well, I was looking for a way to illustrate it, like a thread through fabric. And what I discovered was the Persian buttercup. The Persian buttercup is a beautiful flower that has often 30 paper thin petals in every single flower.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

That that's diverse, that's large, that's beautiful. It's that's how grace has unfolded in my life, like the opening of that flower, one petal at a time, because I needed a lot of understanding of grace. My previous understanding was it was an acronym they used at church, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Yeah, God's riches at Christ expense, period.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

I've heard other ones as well. It diminishes it now in my perception because it is beautiful like a Persian buttercup. The grace of God is so beautiful. And the first time that I remember like being handed that flower, like, oh wow, what's this? Was it my wedding? When the pastor prayed over us after we did our vows, he prayed something over us that I went, huh? Maybe I ought to pay attention to that. And what he did is he prayed that God would give us the grace to do what we had vowed to do that day. And it was like I was handed that beautiful flower, and it's like, it's beautiful. Don't know anything about it, but it's beautiful. And that's about how I felt at my wedding. It's like, wow, grace. Somehow that felt really important to me, even though I had no understanding of his prayer. And over the course of my married life and becoming a mom and all the things, that flower has opened little by little by little, because we're saved by grace. We need grace, and we don't really get grace until it opens up like that beautiful flower for us to smell the fragrance of it, to see the beauty of it, and to gather people together like a beautiful bouquet of that, because when we collectively share our stories of grace, it's like looking at a beautiful field of flowers. I don't know if Persian buttercups grow in fields, but I was looking for a way for to illustrate the diversity and the depth and the beauty and the complexity and the simplicity of grace because grace is simple yet complex, just like human beings. You know, we have one body, but you start thinking about all the different parts that make our body work. I had a fracture in my hand in February from falling, and it is so amazing to witness what I know in my understanding, how the body is so interconnected because we forget. We don't take breathing for granted, we don't think about is my heart beating. We don't think, oh, do I have enough acid in my stomach to you know digest this meal I just ate? And we don't appreciate our hands till we can't use one of them. I am right-handed in my dominant hand, and I couldn't use my hand for a while, and I'm still in occupational therapy getting the full effects of everything back. Then because there's all the different parts of your hand. It wasn't just the bone that was affected, it's the muscles, it's the tendons, the ligaments, the blood vessels, the nerves, the cartilage, all that working together and the complexity of that. And it's good for us to pause and think about the marble of our bodies. I love watching little kids when they discover their hands and their feet.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Whoa, and we need we need to do that in our lives because we get so caught up in I gotta go here, I gotta go grocery shop, I gotta do the laundry, I gotta do this, I gotta do that, that we can forget.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

I wanted to bring that illustration of the Persian buttercup. Grace is like that Persian buttercup. And through my married life, I've been married for 46 years now, okay, which is a work of grace in and of itself.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

True, very true.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

But my husband and I were not going to have children. We talked ahead of time. We planned on not having children. We weren't supposed to be able to have them anyway, so why try anyways? But we both have trauma backgrounds. And with my trauma background, I had a whole lot of substance abuse. So I was not confident I would give birth to a whole baby. I was it would be damaged and it would be all my fault. And I was still quite living in my trauma responses at that time, not even knowing that I had trauma at the time. But God's grace, little by little, one petal opening on that flower, he informed us he wanted us to have kids, and he told us we sat down and we prayed for them. We were married in February. My daughter was born on Christmas. Oh, he got to work fast.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Yes, very fast.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

And you know, my child, I have two children. They're wonderful, they're healthy, you know, perfectly imperfect because they're humans like the rest of us. But one of the ways that that flower bloomed with my children because I was so afraid to be a parent because of my trauma background, and because of my skewed perception of God at the time. I had was suffering from religious trauma and spiritual trauma at the time, and I was terrified of God. It's like I knew that he loves me, but just you watch how you walk. I was very careful, very, very fear-focused. I had been so inundated with that. So I was terrified raising kids, and God gave me the gift, he gave me my children's names before they were born. He gave me both of them before I was even pregnant with them.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

But I got to choose the middle names, and I chose their middle name something that meant grace. My daughter's middle name is Joanna, and my son's name is John. And my heart in that was like lifting up my flower to God, going, I need your grace to do this, or we're all gonna die. That's how I felt. And he showed up, he showed up, and I didn't even know how to look for him. That's how crippled I was from the trauma in my life. But that beautiful flower kept blooming one more petal at a time, one more petal at a time, giving birth to my children and raising them. And it was hard and it was imperfect, but I was so aware that God was helping me. I was not alone, even though my relationship with the Lord is was very strained. Like I said, I was afraid of him, yet I knew deeply that I needed him. So I had I had a disorganized attachment with God. I don't know if you're familiar with attachment theory. I am I had a disorganized attachment in all of my relationships, but even with God. And for those of you listening that don't know what that is, the healthy attachment is you are attached to people and you can have disagreements and you know how to fight nice and re reconcile and things like that, and you know how to trust people and you know, healthy, imperfect. But then there is the anxious where you're like so needy and clingy that you go from one relationship to another, to another, to another, to another because you can't be by yourself. Another one is the um pushing them away one, it's escaping me at the moment because I want to be is it avoidant? Avoidant avoidant where you don't want to hold on to the relationship because you don't trust it. You push people away. And I was the one that mixed the two, which is the disorganized, which is needy, go away, needy, go away, needy, go away. And they look at you like you are a psychopath. What is wrong with you? You want me in your life, you don't want me in your life, you want me in your life, you don't want me in your life. And that's my relationship was like that with God, the same way, because I knew I needed him, but I was so afraid of him and afraid of connection and afraid of what I had come to know about Christianity at that time. But his grace bloomed again, and little by little he brought me into more understanding and healing my body and healing my trauma. And one of the parts of our story where we moved to Arizona for five years, we are both uh Michigan-born and raised, my husband and I. We moved to Arizona for five years, which was a trial in and of itself, but it was a beautiful Persian buttercup because I knew I needed to go, but it was terrifying to do it.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

But it was so transformative because during that five years, God introduced me to myself. And I got to meet who I am and discover who I am and learn things about myself I had never known and begin working on more of the trauma. I'd worked on some of it when I met a lady minister named Joyce Meyer, who was the first and only person I ever heard talk about trauma openly. And through what she shared, it helped me see things in my life, though her trauma was vastly different than mine. But then in Arizona, at the church that God led us to, they had a guest minister come in and he taught on grace. And I listened to those, yes, CDs. Now we do MP3s. I listened to those CDs over and over and over again because I needed to get that deeply in my heart. I'm like, open, open flower, open flower, trying to force that flower to open so I could understand what that grace was. He talked about a portion in the Bible that I was very familiar with from a sanitized kind of way of looking at it, where he talked about Sarah and Hagar and the two covenants and all of that. And but he unpacked it just with the beautiful flower, the beautiful Persian buttercup flower. That the old covenant was about works and about earning and about the law. But the new covenant, where he said, cast the other woman out. And this guy was so funny, he'd say, We're not talking about throwing women away. That's not what we're talking about here. No, this is illustrative. This is just illustrative to cast that other one out, to throw the other one away. It is done, it is over, it's completed. Jesus completed it. We have this new one where it's through grace that we are saved. And he shared his story of how he used to be a very good law impacting preacher and making people cry and come to the altar and all the things, and how he just illustrated that so beautifully. And so I went through illustration after illustration after illustration in my life of grace, like the petals of that Persian buttercup, and me being able to walk in that grace and to be able to receive that grace and to be able to give that grace. So now I love giving Persian buttercups to other people.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

That is beautiful, Danielle. You know, as I'm listening to you, my husband and I talk a lot about the grace forge, which we we think of as Hebrews 4 says, come to the throne of grace where we can receive mercy and grace to help us in our time of need. And there's the grace forge where God creates for us exactly what we need when we are in the forges of life, you know, the the marriage, the parenting, the trauma, the dealing with the attachment, all of you know, the attachment struggles, all of these things. And we have to come to God and say, I need you to create what I need to get through this, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:21

I love how you put that. He creates what we need to get through. That's a new way. I've not heard it put that way. I love that. The way I've seen it is it's God's power at work where we need it, which is just a little different than that. It's whatever you have need of. He he provides that, and that's so powerful. It's like to me, it's calling God on the scene, like in in uh Zephaniah, where it says grace, grace in one of the translations, when he puts the capstone on saying, Grace, grace. And I found myself I just speaking that grace, grace, like it is written in the scripture. I feel like that's really powerful prayer, it's which is calling Holy Spirit on the scene. So when I'm I'm one of those people, one of those weirdos out there that I like to pray over ambulances and stuff like that. When I see them out there, I just I hear it and I just I just go, grace, grace, grace, grace. Like, Holy Spirit, go be a part of whatever's happening in that ambulance. Go be a part of whatever's happening in that fire truck.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Yeah, yeah, I do that sometimes too. So I I think that there's something special in those of us who do that.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Um lengthy prayers. Jesus said we don't need to pray long, lengthy prayers. I am a simplifier. I tell people one of the most powerful prayers you can pray is God help. Yes, yes, just like that. And you we don't need to know all the terms either. Attachment theory and all the different names for it. We don't need to know what they're called to heal from them. I simplify, and most of the time I don't use all that industry jargon because people don't know what it is.

SPEAKER_01 14:59

Yeah, yeah, and what they need isn't more industry jargon. I mean, some of us do like to have those the understanding and the and the you know, all of that. But uh it so many times I'm praying, God, just pour out your grace, you know what's needed, right? Just like you, grace, grace, pour out your grace, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

You mentioned going to the throne room of grace, and when I first started thinking about you wanted me to open with a story, all my stories were about mercy. I'm like, oh that that's mercy, that's not Christ. Oh nope, that's mercy, that's not Christ. Oh, that's mercy, that's not Christ.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

But you know, but they tie together, they tie together. It is when we see God's mercy that we can also experience his grace because it it comes out of his love for us, right? Yeah, and I know that you know I have raised kids who have had attachment issues themselves, and so I'm adopt I'm I am an adoptive mom, and so we've my kids have come from a place of trauma, and so I've seen that in life, and uh what I've also seen is when we really get God's love, when we really understand God's love, that makes such a difference in our lives. And I imagine you've seen that, you know, as that Persian buttercup flower opens, you're seeing God's love in fresh ways all the time.

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Yes, it does. I say knowing, knowing, knowing that you're loved changes everything. Not knowing as in understanding English, knowing as and you know in your heart and you were fully convinced of it. I have a free audiobook I give away at my website called Love's Manifesto, where I talk about that specific thing. It's like, what is love, why we don't believe it, and what it takes to convince us. Because it took me 35 years to believe the love of God, to go from I understand English, I agree with it, I accept it, I want to feel it. I want to know it. And it took 35 years to be fully convinced because I had been so mangled in my understanding of the love of God that it took him a lot of work, but he's so patient.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

He is, he is so patient, and similarly, even without the the church wounds and trauma that and the spiritual abuse that you've experienced, even I came from a place in my life where really accepting and believing deep down that I'm loved, that took a lot of years. It took a long time. But when I finally went, uh, oh, I can receive that love now. It has changed who I am and how I show up in amazing ways.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

So yeah, when you're when you're met with mercy and grace in your worst moments, it changes you.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

It changes you. I remember hearing someone talk about how they brought the woman caught in adultery to Jesus, and the way that they unpacked it was a little bit different. You know, we heard the stories, you know, about the stones and all that stuff. And but how they put it was the people who had the rocks, they wanted this woman to be identified by her worst moment. And he said he or she suggested that what Jesus was writing down on because we don't know what he was writing, right, was perhaps what they had done. And he was asking them, Do you want to be known by your worst moment? And he doesn't make us known by our worst moments, he embraces us in them and invites us into a new place.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

It's just so beautiful. I got goosebumps all over my body.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

It's a video of a little boy, and it's called Something Stronger. And this little boy is in the garage with his dad, and his dad's changing the oil, and the dad goes in the house and leaves the kid in the garage. And the kid gets curious about the oil, and then he starts getting closer to the oil, and then he starts touching the oil, and then he starts feeling the oil, and then he starts playing in the oil, and then the oil goes everywhere, and then he comes to himself that he has made a big mess. And what was he doing? And he becomes terrified of what he has just done, and then he tiptoes into the house to go clean up his mess himself and makes a mess on the way, of course, because he's got motor oil all over the place, and he goes into the bathroom and makes an absolute disaster out of the bathroom with the toilet paper, the paper towels, the towels. I mean, it's it's just awful till he finally realizes he he cannot clean this up. He does not have the power to do this, but he's scared. He's scared, and he calls for his dad, but he had locked the door, and his dad comes and goes, Bud, are you okay? And he tries to come in. He said, Open the door, no matter what it is, it'll it'll it'll be okay, or something like that. And finally he unlocks the door and lets his dad come in, and his dad looks around, and then his dad kneels down and he says, You got quite a mess here, huh? And then the dad opens his arms to welcome the little boy into his arms, just like the story of the good father they like to call the prodigal son's story. I call it the good father. He opens his arms and the little boy leans in and he just embraces him and gets oil all over himself to do that and says to him, I think we need something stronger. And then takes him in the other room to get the things just and starts cleaning all the oil off of him. When you're when you're in a you got oil all over you and you can't get this off of you, and you are met with that kind of love, compassion, and grace. I mean, I just I tell the story and I tear up every time. The era in which I was raised, I know I'm not the only household, and it was probably normal back then. No, but I would have been beaten. I would have been beaten, I would have been yelled at, screamed at, and had consequences all over the place. I I watching that is an unveiling of the heart of God that is hard to internalize when you have never witnessed that in your life.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

That is such a powerful story. And how God does He does have something stronger than our shame and our and our messes that we've created and trying to clean it up and it just yeah, he does have something more powerful. And it's Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

It's his grace. It's how he saves us. It's how he he does that. That's how Jesus came was through his grace. It's yes. It's grace is the answer.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

It is, it is. It's like um the uh the old book where the answer to life, the universe, and everything is the number 42. Like it was a Douglas Adams science fiction story, and there's this giant supercomputer that spends years calculating and the answer is 42. It's like really the answer to everything is grace. Yeah, it's God's grace.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

And he's got plenty of it. His grace is sufficient. It's absolutely his mercies are new every morning, it never runs out. But a lot of churches and a lot of religious circles don't preach that. They they qualify grace, they put it in a box. You know, well, you gotta be careful, you know, hyper grace and all that. You're gonna give people a license to sin. Well, you you face the grace of God in your moment like that, that doesn't make you want to sin.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

No, so help me not do that again.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Yeah, yeah. It it's there's so much gratitude and freedom in that. And even if somebody does fall back into it, God's grace doesn't get cut off.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

Right, because some things take time, yeah, exactly. Things take time, like it took me 35 years to believe the love of God. I wasn't trying to not know the love of God, I wasn't in sin during that time. Where there are people who would say I was probably in sin. And it's like, no, God is kinder and gooder and greater and bigger and better than people give him credit for.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Absolutely. I don't think God's up there ticking off our sins, I think he's up there reaching out with compassion, saying, Let me just redeem all of this.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

Yes, yeah, and what he can do, make it like a beautiful Persian buttercup.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

Yes, yes, yes. And we go, how'd you do that?

SPEAKER_00 24:21

Oh, he's God. Yes, I'm God, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

And and that's one of the things that I see so often is this redemption of the sins, of the struggles, of the messes we've made of our lives in our past. And God says, Okay, you are the best person to speak to somebody else about exactly that, which I know you're doing now. So tell us some more about what you're doing now.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

Well, I am currently working on my next book, is one thing I'm actively doing right now as well.

unknown 24:53

Great.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

But I have uh five other books. And last week was the 12th anniversary, the first one that started everything, Emerging with Wings: A True Story of Lies, Pain, and the Love That Heals. That's my story of grace and redemption. It's written like a love story. But I do coaching and I do speaking. On top of that, I do one-on-one coaching, and I call myself a relationship repair specialist because I was led into we need to specialize. How many different coaches are there? You know, you need to know you're getting what you need. If you need your toe worked on, you don't go to the dermatologist. You go to a foot doctor, right? You go to this specialty. So I help people repair the relationship with themselves because that gets mangled through trauma. I help them repair the relationship with others and even repair the relationship with God. I have been through that myself, repairing it with myself, with family members I have been estranged from, and also some that we had unhealthy relationships, which my mother and I repaired our relationship, and that was a whole work of grace. I've written about that on my website, and that was that was a work of grace. Neither one of us knew what we were doing, but God provided what we needed to walk us through, and we were very close when she passed. I'm very grateful for that. So I have helped my clients with one-on-one coaching with them, but also one-on-two coaching to help them with a relationship that they have, like a mother and daughter, mother, son, or whatever the case may be. But I do one-on-two coaching as well to help repair those relationships. And I do workshops and businesses and communities and churches and wherever people want their relationships repaired.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

Oh, well, and you're coming from a great place to be able to help people in that. Thank you. It's great. In a minute, I'm going to ask you to share a big takeaway for our listeners. But first, how can people get a hold of you? How can people get in touch with you?

SPEAKER_00 26:48

I'm on most of the socials, but now there's a gazillion of them. So I'm on all the primary ones people know of uh Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, and more. But you can find me at my website. That is the easiest place to find me because all the things that I have are connected to my website, which is my name.com, Danielleburnock.com. And Burnock was with an E, B, E, R, and O C K.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Okay, great. And I will be sure to include that link in our show notes so people can just click on it and find you.

unknown 27:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

Easy peasy. We need easy.

SPEAKER_01 27:21

Yes, we do need easy.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

We need easy.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

Yes, we do. So what's one thing that you would like our listeners to leave this conversation hearing from you?

SPEAKER_00 27:33

I would like you to take away from this conversation that the grace of God is for you because he loves you. He loves you. I love you. I call myself that lady on the internet who loves you. I have an IP protected, in fact, because we need love and you need love, and you are worthy of love. And you are worthy of the grace of God because God said so. Not by anything you have done, but because God said so. And so there's nothing you can do to disqualify yourself for that. The grace of God is for you every day, all day.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

And it's a beautiful Persian buttercup that's continually unfolding and flowering. Yes. Thank you so much for your time today, Danielle.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

Oh, thank you. This was delightful. I really enjoyed this a lot.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

For me, the most powerful part of this conversation with Danielle was when we talked together about how everything changed for both of us when we learn to accept that we are loved by God. I'll be honest, for a long time I thought I was alone in that. That other people got it when I didn't. But now I realize I wasn't alone. And if you are struggling with trying to live in the way you believe God wants you, but maybe you feel stuck, reach out to Danielle or to me. Because the worst lie you can believe is that no one cares about your struggles. We get it. I get it. And I care. So that's it for today. Until next time. Whatever you are walking through, remember this. The grace you need is already being forged.