Whole-Life Worship with Cheryl Marshall

Moving from Weeping to Worship

• Cheryl Marshall • Season 1 • Episode 11

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0:00 | 27:23

Cheryl Marshall welcomes Christine Chappell to explore how believers can move from weeping to worship in seasons of discouragement. Drawing from the Psalms of Lament and Christine’s forthcoming book, "Lament: Crying out in Faith," the conversation unpacks what biblical lament is, why it matters, and how it can help Christians experience genuine gladness, grow in grace, and embrace both honest sorrow and steadfast praise.

Key Topics Covered

  • What is Lament?
    • Christine Chappell defines biblical lament as “a way of talking to the Lord about our pain, of fellowshipping with him in the midst of our grief...a way of taking refuge in God in our distress” 
  • God’s Grace in Lament
    • Discussion on how it is a distinct privilege for God’s people to approach Him with our burdens, highlighting the unique access believers have to God’s presence and comfort 04:02.
  • Seeking Gladness Apart from God
    • Honest reflection on how both believers and non-believers are tempted to “gladden their own hearts apart from the Lord” and examples of unhealthy coping mechanisms, versus turning to God for true joy.
  • The Goals of Lament
    • Examining God’s good intentions in our sorrows, reorienting our goals, purging impurities, giving wisdom, reviving hope, and strengthening us to take our next steps in faith.
  • What is Biblical Hope?
    • A definition of biblical hope as “a settled assurance that all God has promised will come to pass”, and clarifying the difference between hoping in God’s promises versus our preferences.
  • The Relationship Between Lament and Praise
    • How lament and praise coexist, and how honest sorrow before God can also be an act of worship. “We are holding these two truths, lament and praise, at the same time. And that is a spiritual skill that grows with practice and time”.

Take Aways

  • Lament is Not Weakness: It’s an act of faith and fellowship with God in our darkest moments.
  • God Invites Honest Emotion: We can approach God authentically and reverently in pain, and He welcomes us because we belong to Him in Christ.
  • Run to God: Searching for comfort apart from Him ultimately leaves us empty; God alone can truly gladden our souls.
  • Shift Our Hopes: Biblical hope rests on what God promises, not always on what we desire.
  • Worship in Weeping: Weeping and worship are not mutually exclusive; honest lament can itself be worship when paired with a heart of trust.

Resources Mentioned

Next Steps

  • Reflect on your current sorrows: Have you practiced biblical lament, honestly pouring your heart out to God?
  • Try praying through a Psalm of Lament, trusting God to meet you in your pain.
  • Consider what hopes or comforts you may be seeking apart from God, and intentionally turn to Him for gladness.
  • Embrace the dual reality: It’s okay to weep and worship at the same time.

Connect

SPEAKER_00

Welcome to Whole Life Worship. This is Cheryl Marshall, and I'm so glad you're with us today as we pursue lives wholly devoted to God, without compromise, without comparison, in every circumstance. This is Whole Life Worship. Today's topic is moving from weeping to worship, and I'm so thankful to have Christine Chapel here for this conversation today. Last week she was with us for the episode called Overcoming Discouragement with the Gospel. If you missed that, you'll want to go back and listen. And today we're diving deeper into a discussion about pursuing a life devoted to God amid discouragement. As Christ followers, how do we move from weeping to worship when we experience the difficulties of life? And our conversation is based on Christine's upcoming book, Lament, Crying Out in Faith, which will be out in September 2026 from PNR Publishing. Christine Chapel is a certified biblical counselor and host of the Hope and Help podcast for the Institute for Biblical Counseling and Discipleship. She is the author of several books and many books, including Lament, Crying Out in Faith, Midnight Mercies, Walking with God Through Depression and Motherhood, and Help. I've been diagnosed with a mental disorder. She currently serves as a council member for the Biblical Counseling Coalition and is a regular speaker at women's events and conferences. Christine lives in South Carolina with her husband and three children, and you can connect with her at Christinechapel.com. So welcome back, Christine. Hey there, Cheryl. Thanks for having me again. So glad to have you, and we're going to jump right in because we have so many good things to talk about. And just like last week, I know that you're going to point us to Christ, and I just love that. So last week you gave our listeners such a clear and hopeful picture of what lament is. And I'd love to start there again today, both for those who may be hearing this conversation for the first time, but also as a foundation for what we're going to discuss. So, in a sentence or two, how would you describe lament as found in the scriptures and why is it an important part of pursuing a life devoted to God?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so just by way of reminder, or if you didn't listen last week, lament is really a way of talking to the Lord about our pain, a way of fellowshipping with him in the midst of our grief, or really how I present it in this book is a way of taking refuge in God in the midst of our distress. And so lament's not an emotion necessarily, but it is a language, a way of speaking and sharing our heart, pouring out our heart before the Lord in a way that is authentic and reverent. And it is so important for pursuing whole life devotion to God, really because all of life is lived before the Lord. We are created for fellowship with him. And that means not just in our happy times, but also in our discouraging times too. We need him at all times. And we need to trust him at all times. And that can be very hard. And so lament is a way in which we draw near to the Lord and cast our burdens upon him in our sorrow so that we might be comforted and strengthened and also given wisdom for what we need in the moments that lie ahead.

SPEAKER_00

Well, in your devotional on lament, you break up the book into five different sections. Last week we talked about a couple of those. And today we're going to touch on the other three: God's grace and lament, the goal of lament, and then anticipating glory through lament. And so I'd like to begin with God's grace. So as you studied the Psalms of Lament, in what ways did you see God putting his grace on display as the psalmists just poured out their distresses to the Lord and poured out their discouragement and their concerns?

SPEAKER_01

I think one of the things that is easy for us to forget. Or maybe we if we don't forget, then maybe we take it for granted. You know, when the scriptures talk about crying out to the Lord, it's very clear that he hears the cries of the righteous, not the cries of the wicked. Right? He opposes the proud and gives grace to the humble. Like the Lord our God. There is no other God. I think it's in Deuteronomy, but I don't have it right at the at the tip of my fingers here. But but there is somewhere in the scriptures where it says, Who has a God like our God who comes close to his people when they cry out to him? There is no other God like our God. And so just the grace of the fact that he has called us to himself. And because of that belonging that we have in Christ, we have the privilege of prayer. This is not an invitation he gives to everyone, but lament to cry out in faith is something that we, as his chosen people, have the privilege of doing. And I even think of a Tim Keller quote that I reference often, and it may be familiar to some of your listeners, but he says something to the effect of, you know, who dares to approach a king at 3 a.m. for a glass of water but a child, right? The king's daughter or son will come and burst into the bedroom in the middle of the night and say, Mom, or say, Dad, can I have a drink of water? Right? No one else would dare to do that. But in Christ, we have that kind of access to our Father in heaven, the King of Kings, that we can come at any time through prayer and ask for what we need. And so that in and of itself is such a grace. And I think there are so many different kinds of facets of God's grace that are just underneath the umbrella of the privilege that we have as being God's people, not because of anything we've done, but because he has chosen to call us to himself. And that is through, you know, the grace that he gives us in forgiveness. The fact that he welcomes us to come to him, that he promises to support us in our sorrow, that he really does care, that he cares for his people. He tends to them, he shepherds them, he leads them, he guides them, he comforts them. There's so many aspects. We don't have time to go into all of it. But now you got me all excited, uh Cheryl, about thinking about God's grace uh to us through lament, because there are so many different facets to it. But I guess I'll just stop with that one that that is even the doorway to all the others, is that the we have the privilege, the gift of being called to him, part of it, adopted into his family through Christ. And because of that belonging, because of that identity, we get that special access that nobody else gets, right? In the middle of the night, no matter where we are, we can we can come to him for the refreshment that that we need.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. And speaking of that refreshment, one of the things you write about is how God gladdens the heart. You use the word gladdens, and you take that from Psalm 86, 4, where King David prays, Gladden the soul of your servant, for to you, O Lord, do I lift up my soul. And in that particular day's reflection, you also give us a glimpse into your own life before Christ, when you sought other things apart from God to gladden your soul, to be your refuge and your relief. And then you write, quote, everyone is tempted to gladden their own hearts apart from the Lord, end quote. So what are some of the common ways you have seen? Even believers seek to gladden their sorrowing hearts apart from God. And what can we learn from that Psalm, Psalm 86, about pursuing genuine gladness or joy in the Lord?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and this was a this was a funny kind of day because I I kept the word gladden there because that's the word that's used in the scripture, but it could also kind of think of it as God comforts. And so we kind of struggled back and forth between which word we were going to use. But but ultimately, you know, like you mentioned, I used to gladden my heart in my sorrow with alcohol. So just basically manufacture a kind of temporary, I wouldn't even call it joy, but just an elation, I guess you could say, temporary elation apart from Christ. But I think that there are other things that we might turn to, even if it's not elation that we feel, but there may be a sense of satisfaction or fullness or or contentment, even that we derive from things like food, some you know, substances like alcohol or drugs, pornography, uh just anything that we turn to apart from the Lord, you know, there are, I think, things we can do that are that are healthy, you know, it's like sometimes when we're, you know, discouraged, maybe we go outside and I and we garden, we enjoy his creation. So I'm not saying every single time, you know, you go and do something that there is this, you know, inherently sinful aspect to it, but I think that there, I think we know. I think we know when there are those destructive habits. I know you had Reshwit on recently talking about destructive sin patterns or habits. And so there are those things that we are turning to, those Christeless crutches where we are seeking to comfort or numb or to gladden ourselves apart from Christ. And it always wears off. It's temporary, doesn't actually lead to any kind of healing or closeness with the Lord. It's actually drive something, a choice or a behavior or a habit that drives us further away, can actually even deepen our despair or our enslavement to particular sins. And so I just really appreciated the fact that in Psalm 86, when David says, gladden the heart, the soul of your servant, for to you, O Lord, do I lift up my soul. There's, I think, maybe two things right off the bat that we see is number one, gladness does not reside within us. Like we need the, we need it to come, we need to be gladdened from outside of ourselves. Where we are dependent on someone or something for gladness. And I think that speaks to the reality that we live in a fallen world and that maybe there was a time in Eden when gladness was just like the natural state of our existence, but that not so anymore, right? Not so anymore as a result of the fall. And so all of our lives we are spent looking to be gladdened by something. And all of our lives, things continue, people, substances, pursuits, habits, achievements, goals, they continue to leave us feeling empty or not reaching down to the depths of comfort or satisfaction or fulfillment that we need. And so, number one, just the fact that David says that I mean, basically his ask for gladness is an admission to the fact that it it's not up, it's not within us. It's not something we can just bolster in ourselves, right? But then he says, For you, O Lord, do I lift up my soul? So where does he go to look to be gladdened? Where does he go for comfort? He turns to the Lord and he lifts up his soul there. So I used to lift up my soul, so to speak, or my sorrow even, to a bottle, right? To the alcohol or to self-harm, right? But in David's example, we see that there is another option of where we bring our emotional pain when affliction has drained us of joy, that that the Lord knows we need him and we need his help. We need him to gladden us. And through lament, we can savor the fact that nobody can gladden us like God can. And we have we maybe we know people who who have this kind of this gladness in Christ, even as they weep, Cheryl, you were talking about this episode being like moving from weeping to worship. And I would even say that weeping worship can include weeping. It doesn't have to be one or the other. Yes. You know, that even in our lament, as we are crying out to the Lord to gladden us and turning to him for comfort, like that is worship. Because our heart is oriented toward him, and we are looking to him to do the work that we can't do in ourselves, and we have found that there is no one in all creation or no created thing that can gladden us the way that the Lord can, even if it means just through his presence in our pain, not that the pain is relieved, but that we experience a fresh, a fresh encounter with him in the midst of our grief. And so I'm not sure if that answers all of the question, but I'll probably just cut it off there. That I I I do love that question though, and I'm thankful that you asked.

SPEAKER_00

If you want to grow as a whole life worshiper, my new book, All of Me, Pursuing a Life Wholly Devoted to God, was written especially for you. It's available through major booksellers and the link in the show notes. You also talk about the goals of lament. I mean, I don't think in those times of sorrow and grieving and and difficulty that we're always thinking that God is doing something good. But you do talk about God's goals of lament, meaning what he is accomplishing in us. And I was reminded of the saying that no pain is ever wasted. So, what are some of God's good intended goals for us spiritually as we lament our discouragements and our disappointments?

SPEAKER_01

I think it's it's so helpful, you know, to me to I guess even when I started training in biblical counseling, one of the very first things I remember learning is just starting to think of what are goal, God's goals, right? Because that's really what biblical counseling, you know, to some degree is is we're trying to figure out, okay, well, well, what are God's goals for this person in this problem? Because that's what we want to pursue. We want to pursue God's goals because God's goals are promised like outcomes. Like He's saying, This is what I'm going to do through this situation. And it's not necessarily I'm promising, you know, to fix this situation, but here's how I'm promising to help or to strengthen or to guide. And so we can see. There are things we can know even in the midst of all we do not know about what God is doing in the midst of this particular season of life or discouragement that we're in. And, you know, there, I'm not going to go, you know, too deep into it, but I think even just a general reminder of some of those goals, I think, is important because if we don't have this view of what God's goals are in our discouragement, then we will be so consumed by what our own goals are. You know, and so that even can begin to shape our view of the Lord and even our our reasons for coming to him in prayer, because we're like, my goal for praying to you, God, is that you will make this go away or you will fix this problem. And the reality is that when our goals are things that God has not promised to do, then when he doesn't do them, we will be disillusioned. We will be even more deeply discouraged, and we can be even begin to be bitter and angry at the Lord. And so we don't want any of that. We want to have an awareness of what God is accomplishing or at least uh teaching us in the midst of our discouragement so that we can align ourselves with those goals and embrace them, even if it means that our our sorrows aren't being relieved. And so, you know, something like thinking back to the reality that he's reorienting us to himself, you know, so even in just our goals, he's reorienting our own goals or our hearts away from what we would, our will would be, right? I think of Jesus in the garden, you know, not my will, but your will be done. And so he's reorienting even our will, reorienting our motivation for life. I know the whole podcast you're doing, Cheryl, is talking about that whole life worship. And so he's reorienting, you know, our desires, our motives, our our purpose, even in our pain. But he's also creating in us a clean heart. He's purging us of impurities in our faith that are that are keeping us from a more full fellowship with him or fruitfulness in even in our sorrow. He's giving us wisdom. So as we draw near to him through lament, you know, he is teaching us the way of Christ, the way of walking through, you know, the hard, um, the dark, the perplexing in a way that doesn't lose heart, but actually takes heart in the hope that we have in Christ and giving us wisdom for our next steps. Um, but he's also reorienting and and reviving our hope. And I think that was the big thing for me in in some of my past struggles was was the reality that I had set my hope on something that God had not promised to give me, like I mentioned. You know, he did not promise a sorrow-free life. He he promised, but he did promise me life. And he promised to be with me in the life that I was going to lead. And so just even reviving our hope, helping us to set our hope on what's true instead of what our expectations, you know, might be and what we want, not necessarily what he has promised. So all of those, all of those things are are kind of his goals, but then strengthening us too, you know, like I had mentioned before, that word, giving us his strength so that we might take our next steps on faithful obedience, even when we can't see where those steps are leading or know how you know things are going to play out. We can continue to be strengthened by his spirit and word to live for his glory while he is working for our good.

SPEAKER_00

One of the things you just mentioned is hope. And that can be a word with a lot of different connotations for our listeners. So when you say hope, what do you mean by that? What is biblical hope and in what ways should it shape how we respond to our sorrows?

SPEAKER_01

John Krotz has a devotional in this series called Hope, Living Confidently in God. And so to answer this question, I'm just going to borrow his words. I think I have it memorized now, but I John Krotz talks about biblical hope as a settled assurance that all that God has promised will come to pass. So it's not some kind of assurance that what I want will come to pass. I can't, I can't put my hope there because I don't have the power to bring about what I want. And I'm certainly don't, you know, I'm not God. I don't have God's will bent to mine, right? And so I think even just kind of getting a clarifying, taking a moment to kind of get clear on what is biblical hope, and is that the hope that I'm living with today? Is that the hope that I'm truly taking hold of in Christ, where I'm looking to Him, His character and His promises for the future that I know is coming, even though I have to wait for it? Or am I holding God accountable to promises He hasn't made, and then growing more deeply discouraged because He's not fulfilling the promises He hasn't made, if that makes sense. I think I've I see that in my own story. I see that that anger and resentment and bitterness growing over time and thinking that God wasn't helping me to live a sorrow-free life, and that because of that he really didn't love me. You know, there's all that kind of twisted thinking, and it wasn't that, it's not that maybe what you're hoping for today is necessarily bad. It could be actually a good, a good and godly thing that you're hoping for. But again, if it's not something that he has promised, then it can then that is a shifted hope. Right? If it's not something that he has promised to us in Christ, then we cannot hold him accountable to fulfill his word. He will fulfill what he has spoken, but not what we have necessarily always asked. And it's not that we can't ask him to do things, but we always subject those requests to his will, to his plan. Just like our Savior did when he asked the, you know, Lord or Father, if there be any other way, let this cut pass. Nevertheless, not my will, but your will be done. And so I think biblical hope lives with that kind of posture of bowing down, you know, for to the Lord's purposes, even as we are waiting on him to fulfill his promise.

SPEAKER_00

As we walk through all these things you've been talking about and seeking the Lord and communing with him and lament, we bring our concerns before him. But just like we see in the Psalms, there's a place for lament coupled with praise. Often in the same psalm, we see that. So, since this podcast is all about pursuing lives devoted to God as whole life worshippers, can you expound a little bit more on the connection between lament and praise? And how does lament help us to move from weeping before the Lord to worshiping Him, or are they often done one in the same?

SPEAKER_01

I think that when we talk about lament, praise is not something that we initially associate with prayers of pain. Because who wants pain? I don't want pain. I don't I don't want the the different things I'm facing right now. Like we don't want it. So I don't know anyone who's volunteering, you know, apart from our Lord Himself, for a story filled with pain. And yet I think it's helpful to know that when we look to how we look to the history of God's people, we look to the historical precedent of how God's people have cried out in faith in the midst of their affliction and their anguish, and we see that they somehow were able to be authentic in their experience, authentic about their emotion and their distress and their questions and their doubts and their discouragement, right? But at the Same time maintain that reverent posture. And in fact, we may not realize all but one of the Psalms of Lament have an explicit statement of confidence or trust, or what some commentators will label as praise. And so it's there. But oftentimes I'll think of even my own story. Honestly, Cheryl, I would just gloss over those. I resonated with the laments and the complaint and the questions and the wrestling. And I would gloss over the parts that would appear to be worshipful and praise because that didn't seem to connect with my experience at the time. And so there is this tension, and lament acknowledges that. And I think when I'm working with women trying to help them to grow more comfortable in this space, what we're working toward is not denying your pain. Nobody is asking you to deny or demean or belittle the sorrow, but to be able to, by the power of and spirit and word of God, to say that yes, this is true, but also this is true. There are two realities, right? There is the truth of the lament, but there is the truth of praise be to God for Jesus Christ. We have a savior, we have hope. We have a God who is working. He is not done with our story. And so that's really where lament is, I think, so helpful, even in just a counseling context, because it's not just like flip a switch and pretend like everything is fine. It's no, this is really hard, and yet this is true at the same time. And so we're holding these two truths, lament and praise at the same time. And that is a spiritual skill that grows with practice and time and that the spirit helps us toward. And so, how does lament help us to move from weeping before the Lord to worshiping him? I mean, I just think even to where I'm at right now, and in the weeping that I've had to do with different discouragements and pains that I'm enduring. And I tell you that lament has not made those tears go away. But lament has helped me to bring my tears before the Lord without being hopeless. Now I may feel hopeless in my own self because I don't have the power to fix what I'm going through. You know, and there's no resolution in sight immediately. But through lament, I take refuge in the Lord and I say, Lord, this is what I'm facing right now, but this is not what I'm facing forever. And I do not face it alone. You are here with me. I can trust you. And so I will continue to live for you here where I am at. And what does that look like, Cheryl? But what you have talked about, I'm sure on this podcast before, which is to serve other people, to serve the Lord, the people that he puts on my path, as I wait for him to work according to his word, and I can praise him that because of what I see in Christ, I can see his heart and his love for me. And I know that what he says will come to pass. And all of God's promises have their yes in him. And I'm not missing out on his promises, but I am being asked to wait because not all the promises have been fulfilled yet. And so how do I wait on the Lord and his timing? I lean on him through lament and then entrust myself to a faithful creator while continuing to do good. And so the praise comes because I have Christ, and Christ is always praiseworthy, even when we don't understand his ways or his timing. Well, thank you, sister. And uh, as we close, would you pray for our listeners? Heavenly Father, I'm just so thankful for this time to be together to reflect on hard truths, God, but but eternal truths as well. And I would just pray that for the listener today that you would help her or him just to know that there is an alternate reality, uh not an alternate, maybe I should say a parallel reality to what they are going through. That yes, in the temporal scheme, there are these terrible truths. There are these unresolved pains, these conflicts and betrayals and and this brokenness that we face. And all of this is true, but God, there is this other reality that runs parallel to that, which is your reality, the fact that you are a redeemer, that you are working all things for good for those you have called according to your purpose, and that we can wait on you as we work for you, Lord, and we can watch for you to work according to your word. And so I just pray that you would strengthen the listeners according to your spirit and word, that they would not grow weary in doing good as they wait on you, but that they would take their next step in faithful obedience, knowing that they can glorify you where they are at right now by relying on you and looking to your son for the proof of love that they need in the midst of their discouragement, that they may not grow weary, but that they may take heart in his living hope and worship him even in the midst of their weeping. Amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you for listening to this episode. I invite you to please review, subscribe, and share, and keep pursuing a life wholly devoted to God, without compromise, without comparison in every circumstance. This is Whole Life Worship.