Episode 1: Welcome to the Feeding Hotline!

Welcome to the Feeding Hotline! In our first episode we share who we are, what you can expect from the show, and why feeding your baby can feel so confusing. We'll break down the noise, set the tone for what's ahead, and let you know how to submit your own questions.

Send us your questions!

Email: thefeedinghotline@gmail.com

Voicemail: https://www.speakpipe.com/TheFeedingHotline

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Welcome to the Feeding Hotline, where we answer your real questions about feeding your baby. Breastfeeding, pumping, bottles, solids, all of it.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Hey, I'm Kathy.

SPEAKER_01 0:12

And I'm Tess. And we're both IBCLCs working with families in their homes and seeing the real deal and what families are struggling with day to day.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

So in each episode, we're going to take a topic. We'll see what happens all the time in our practices. We'll take a look at it. We'll break them down. And we're going to hopefully bust a few myths as well as bringing in our own experience.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Exactly. Starting in episode two, we'll answer your questions. So stay tuned for how to submit.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

All right, let's get into it.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

So between the two of us, we bring different kinds of experience. Kathy has been doing this for over 30 years, right? Right. Yeah. And you've seen just about everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

I've had a wonderful career. I've been really fortunate. You're so humble. Oh, you're sweet. That's why I love you so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

But as often is the case, we sometimes look at the same situation from slightly different angles. Even though I do feel like I'm a bit of your mini-me. We each bring our own experiences. So there's no way I could look at things the exact way that you do.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Right. I think that's so true.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Um, and I've had amazing mentors over the years that I bring a lot to the table from them. And then there are things just like in your practice where you go, okay, yeah, well, Kathy says that, but I really see it this way, or this is my experience, which is what practicing lactation is all about. Um, yeah. So in the beginning of my nursing career, I was really fortunate. I ended up in an LDRP setting and uh had a phenomenal mentor. There weren't many, if any, I didn't know any board certified lactation consultants in 1986. That's the year of labor. Oh, be quiet. Oh, be quiet. But there weren't many.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

Tell us LDRP.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Labor delivery, recover, postpartum.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

So we still yeah, those are very common today. Yeah, but no, they weren't back then. So I was really fortunate getting trained in every area. But the most important thing, I had a wonderful mentor that before her time was already putting together a group of nurses that work with lactation specifically at the bedside. Oh, wow. So I look back to that point and how, oh my gosh, what a great foundation for the rest of my career that I end up now at my age where I'm doing what I love every single day. And I didn't know then that's what it would be.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Yeah. Uh so then tell us how you got what your trajectory, you started in LDRP, but then tell us how you got to starting your own private practice.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Right. When I moved from Kansas City to Indianapolis, lactation was not a thing, hardly at all. There was one person with a private practice, very uh unusual and not real busy because people really didn't know about it. Uh, one of the hospitals, and I would say most of them, they required babies to have two bottles of sugar water.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Before they were allowed to breastfeed.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

Why?

SPEAKER_00 3:30

So, and the whole theory behind that, I say it was control.

SPEAKER_02 3:34

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Oh, if I slam this baby with sugar, they're gonna be fine. I don't have to worry about breastfeeding. But there was a very low breastfeeding rate in Indiana. Yeah. And most moms that said they were breastfeeding, they were also supplementing. Sure. Right. But the theory at the hospital was we're gonna rule out what's called TE fistula, which is like one in 500,000 babies. It's very rare. What is that? Um, it's a little opening in uh the trachea that could cause issues with feeding, but it could happen with sugar water as well as breast milk. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Okay, that is that sounds very controlly.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

It was very controlling. Yes, it was. And so uh came in, weren't very many people helping with breastfeeding, so it was really a battle.

SPEAKER_04 4:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Um, I still I worked um NICU and labor and delivery, did a little bit of everything, but I started my own business um in 1996, 97.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Oh, I didn't know it was 96 or 97.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Yeah, early on. Oh, okay. Early on.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Was it always called indie lactation care?

SPEAKER_00 4:34

No, it was a better choice. Okay. And there's another business now with a very similar name.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

So it's kind of oh, that is funny.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

And why did I pick that? I only picked that because I'm going, oh, people start at the beginning, get this of the phone book.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

Oh, yes. Oh, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

They're gonna pick an A. A better choice. That's great.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

That is perfect.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

So that's why I picked it. Thank you. Really doesn't matter now. Yeah, but back then it was a big deal where you were in the phone book. Yeah. Because people would just kind of pop open the first part of the phone book. So, anyway, great mentor, got to start a home business, and it was trial by error. I mean, I had no idea what I was doing. You think of the systems we have now: electronic charting, our computer systems, everything. There was none of that. So much of it was manual. So that was all the beginning of it. Okay. And not long after that, I was needing health insurance benefits like so many people in America. And I ended up going and managing an OBGYN group, and they permitted me to run my business from the group. Oh. So I was a practice manager and managed my business from the office when possible. So I kind of kept that going for quite a few years. Um, and then ended up at one of the local hospitals doing lactation uh on staff. And as you know, Tess Meldon, I much prefer being independent. Yeah. So we restarted the business almost nine years ago, nine years ago in July.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

And uh I love it.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Well, that's where we also um are similar. I don't like um to be told what to do.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

We are kind of like that.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

And in in a way that, like, if it comes from someone who I respect, that's different. But you have told me so many stories about hospital. I don't know if you want to call it politics or hierarchy, and there's this control element where in private practice you get to practice not only evidence-based lactation, but you don't have someone peering over your shoulder telling you what you need to say and how you need to say it. Right.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

And pros and cons, right? So I know in this business I could write a book about the things I did wrong, but they were my mistakes. And I do look at evidence first. You know, there it's a starting point for a patient. Um, it's very hard for me to understand in the medical world if we have evidence, repeated evidence, that we can't use that to practice in a medical setting like a hospital and lactation, but we would in every other area of the hospital.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

It takes so long for quote evidence to make its way into practice in hospitals. Absolutely. I think they've said something like 17 years. Yep. So you've started indie lactation care, you've slowly grown it. Now, how many are there of us in ILC?

SPEAKER_00 7:33

There are seven of us now. Seven. Seven lactation, seven board-certified lactation consultants.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

When did you get your IBCLC? What year?

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Oh my gosh, year would have been it would have been 96. Okay. Yeah. 96.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

How much breastfeeding education do L and D nurses get in general before they're even on the floor working units?

SPEAKER_00 7:57

Yeah, I mean, that's a great question, and it's really variable. Okay. Um it doesn't matter if you work in women's health care, it can be so specialized. And you want your LD nurse to focus on the delivery, right? Just like your midwife. That's a good point. You want the primary focus of their education to be on that, the safety of helping your baby commercial side, right? Um, and there are so many policies in the hospital. There is so much they have to know. So I would say the majority of labor and delivery nurses that that's their primary focus, they really don't get lactation education unless the hospital provides for it. And, you know, we did a four-hour class where I worked, um, but it was hard to get everybody to attend.

SPEAKER_04 8:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

And often what I discovered if that policy, the teaching, the evidence of lactation was not the DNA of the hospital, often people go back and teach what they did with their own child. Yeah, which is so nuanced. And we all want to be part of the family and help our friends. Yeah. We all want to do that. Yeah. And we should. We should do that. But then when we're doing something every single day of our career and we're working with hundreds of babies, and we have other babies to compare to, yeah, it's going to change how we teach that mom. You know, I we can have the best meaning friend in the world who had an experience with their baby that doesn't apply to you or to me whatsoever, but it sounds similar. Right. Right. So uh when we talk about food allergies and we talk about colic and those two things can be in the same bed together, how do we figure out what's going on? Is it food allergy? Is it lactose overlooking? What is it? Well, that friend isn't going to necessarily know because they've not experienced all of that. So and listen, I learn from my patients every single day, and I know you do too. Yeah. Um, and I've had that situation recently where I've learned some major lessons from a patient, and we have to be willing till forever, till the end of our career, to listen well and hopefully learn.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

Yeah. Yeah. Well, uh, that's funny because that kind of brings me to how I got into it. I got my degree at IU, nothing to do with lactation. While I was at IU, I started teaching yoga in 2009, and then teaching yoga brought me into the prenatal, postnatal yoga, and then through that I trained to be a doula, and then as a doula, I was often asked breastfeeding questions. I gave advice that worked for me or that anecdotally worked for the general population. And so it's interesting, once you start learning something, you realize how much you don't know.

SPEAKER_03 10:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

And when I was a doula and helping my clients breastfeed prior to any breastfeeding education, I was way more hands-on. And then I started my lactation education, and I became way more hands-off. And so I noticed that drastic shift. And Kathy is my mentor. Which she lovingly took.

SPEAKER_03 11:17

It was an honor.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

And I do remember at one of our first meetings, you said, I don't hire people that aren't nurses. I only hire nurses. And I was like, fair. I I just want to learn. So um, Kathy, it took me about two years to get my 500 hours, and you thankfully hired me.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Well, and I you may remember, Tess. That's just part of the story. Because I remember it what we weren't two or three months in to your 500-hour mentorship, mentorship hours, that I said, okay, kind of forget what I said about being a nurse. Do you remember that? Oh, yes, I did.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

No, I did not. I don't think I sure did.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

It was just a couple of months in, I'm going, oh my gosh, she is amazing. And the patients thought that. You know, and I read a lot about what the patients are saying and thinking in your interactions. You were a natural and you were a sponge. So while you may not have had all of the terminology that an RN from NICU had at that point, which a lot of- but you were willing to learn, and I could tell that. Yeah. And it was amazing how you were pointing things out to me as soon as we got in the house, right? You were saying things to the mom about the appearance of the baby or whatever. It could be breathing, things that we have to be tuned into. But I will never forget that because I remember just remember, I don't hire anybody but RNs. And then I'm like, okay, eat your words again, Kathy.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

Well, I am on earth. That's true. But it also comes down to teaching. Um, we're just glazing each other right now, as the kids would say. Um, but you were a great mentor, you taught well, and I was a sponge. I wanted to learn everything because I knew that I wanted to make this my career. I learned later in life what I wanted to do. And so I just dove in. Um, and thankfully, you know, you taught me amazing stuff. The the things that I learned under your mentors mentorship as an intern were pivotal in my success in that exam. Um, I mean, yes, some stuff from the classes that I took and the sciences I had to go back to get, because again, I'm not a nurse, but I would say 80% came from the internship.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

Wow, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:43

It really is. And I'll say I feel very fortunate, the career that I've had, and I feel like the different places I've worked have prepared me for different factions of being self-employed.

SPEAKER_02 13:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

Of working. We walk into a house and we see an issue based on our nursing experience. Okay, we have a choice, right? We can ignore it. Yeah. We can be a board certified lactation consultant, which is phenomenal. But once you've learned that, you can't really divorce yourself from that in a consult. Right. So I think I feel very fortunate, very blessed to have the career that I've had. I really do. Do we do more sometimes in our consults than other people because we do have that? I have that RN behind me, or you've learned that knowledge. I think we do. I think we bring that to the table, and that's an important part of what we do.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

I really do.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

It's a a picky thing of mine, but because I'm not an RN, you know this, I refuse to wear scrubs. Yeah. Yeah, well, you've got you've got a patient later. But that is just a thing that I have. I just I I'm not gonna try and play the part of nurse because I'm not.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

I think part of that is true, and I get where you're coming from with that. But I've worked with you enough to know your spidey senses are on when you walk in a house and you see something that's not the norm or okay.

SPEAKER_04 15:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

And you're gonna pick up that phone and call the pediatrician. So IBCLC, the gold standard of lactation care, is so important today with all the research coming out. And your experience as a doula is critical. And my experience as an RN, all those things we bring to the table can make us just so much better and rounded, well-rounded with what we do with moms and families. And I do think, again, we're very fortunate with our team because our whole team has something like that that they bring to the table. So we're fortunate and we get to bounce things off of each other and learn from each other. And there are times I don't know. I don't know an answer. I want to hear somebody else's perspective, and we share as a team, and I think that's really cool. Yeah. I really do. I do. Hey, answer a question for me. So in your doula training, how many hours of lactation education did you have?

SPEAKER_01 16:06

Um, I can't recall any. I probably learned more in my uh prenatal yoga teacher training.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Interesting. And I think it's a valid point, right? We have phenomenal people that we refer to, part of our collaborative team, right? Myofascial, pediatric dentist, occupational therapist. We all bring something different to the table.

SPEAKER_04 16:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

When we look at people we think would have lactation education, uh, from uh midwife to a doula uh to a speech therapist, we don't all.

SPEAKER_04 16:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

We don't all have that. The programs are varied. And I really encourage the public to ask those questions. Yeah. You may be using someone in your home that you have feel has a title that should have lactation education. And they may not. Yeah. They don't. And I think that's the thing. And it's the same for us in our specialty, right? We may have taken courses and learned some oral function work, and we know some myofascial work. And some of those overlap to a degree, and we know our collaborative team. And we are saying, hey, it's time for you to see such and such part of our collaborative team. Right. Because I can be in a home where there's another person coming in that is used to working with moms that's offering lactation advice. I'm coming in doing it all day long, and we don't agree.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Yeah. That is always so hard when you have to tell someone, I'm so sorry, but I I feel like you got bad advice. Right. It's going to start from square one right now. Yeah. Try to forget everything that that person told you.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Well, you want them to trust people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:50

Right?

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Yeah. However, if you have someone that doesn't do feeding or lactation support every day, they often can't stay current on literature because their plate is so full with other information, like pediatricians. Yeah. Right. So much to take in, so much to educate.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

It's not their job to educate on feeding.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

Should they know the basics? Yes. Right. And I think it could be the same, it is the same in our profession. If I got used to teaching something a certain way that I learned 30 years ago, and you come in, you're working with me, and I'm still teaching it that way, and research has changed, that's a big problem. And that's one reason I love this field because research is just exploding. We're learning something new all the time, which keeps it fresh to me.

SPEAKER_04 18:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

And so there are times it seems so weird. If somebody's teaching, and we're going to get into this a lot more in the future, but if somebody's saying, keep waking waking your baby up every two to three hours to feed them.

SPEAKER_04 18:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

And I'm coming into a massive weight gain with a baby that has a belly ache.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

We're going to tweak that plan.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

Yeah. Time and place to wake your baby. Right. It's it cannot be just a blanket statement.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

Right. Because I'm not even going to say it right now. No, say it. But you can overfeed a breastfed baby. Oh my gosh. I know. And it's not even popular in lactation world to say it out loud. Oh no. It is almost inappropriate to say that. Oh, interesting. Why? Because breastfeeding is not just about feeding, it's about nurturing. So if you say you can't put the baby to the breast every hour, even though the baby's demanding because their belly hurts, that's not popular.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Right. That's not popular. And that is that is hard. It is a hard script to flip for some of these moms.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

Well, especially when the internet, right? Oh my god. TikTok and Instagram and I'm going to chat GPT it right now. Hey, and I use it all. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. In one week, I had three moms that did not call and set up an appointment for three to five months. Oof. Three to five months. Wow. And they were getting their information. And again, I get it, influencers. They may be board-certified lactation consultants and very knowledgeable, but they are addressing things well, but things that may not really be what's going on with your baby. And that was the case in all three of those babies.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

And this is exactly why I wanted to start this podcast. I feel like there's so much misinformation out there, not only with just influencers who are moms, but influencers or people whose primary work is putting content on Instagram or TikTok or whatever, they are likely not seeing moms every day.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

And that is the difference. And then they do offer blanket advice. Right. And we are never gonna offer blanket advice because individualized care is so important. But with the question portion of the show that we'll start doing episode two, we can be more specific. Right. Because they're asking specific questions.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

Right. Yeah, I agree with that a hundred percent. And we have an Instagram and we do TikTok. And we can't cover everything. Yeah. No, we put a post out on anything. There is something we're not going to get in that post. We're not going into the depth that I'd probably go into if I were in your home. Right. Because I want to leave there at an hour and a half, knowing that I've taught you absolutely everything that I can for you in that situation and you and your baby that are not like any other mom and baby. Right. And that is what is missing. And we know it. And I think it's we live in a wonderful time of information at our fingertips tips. Which has yeah. And and I've even, we know, we found challenges. GPT being wrong in some of its advice, right? I have.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

I have to correct it. Actually. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

I said that to somebody. I said, oh, I typed in. No, that's not actually right.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

Yeah, just so you know, update your information.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

I'm like, oh, thank you, Kathy. I'm like, are you kidding me? You can update chat GPT wild. That was so funny. Yeah. So it's just being aware of that for all of us, for all of us and how we function uh on a daily basis with digital information, making sure that we have the latest and greatest.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

And it's hard.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

It is hard.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

So hard.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

It is. Yeah. So, Kathy, why did you agree to this harebrained idea to do this podcast?

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Because you're doing all the work tests. That's why. I am doing all the work. You're very busy. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

I feel you have to carve out time in your very busy day to come here and sit on my couch.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

Well, I do love you. We know that I love you.

SPEAKER_01 22:55

Well, I love you too.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

You're kind of like my daughter. We think so much the same about a lot of things. But I so I wouldn't do it with anybody else. I mean, I really am excited about this. I am. Me too. But I also do think there is some information that's not out there. Yeah. And there is not the ability of people to send in their questions and really have it addressed. No, there isn't. So the format to me was wonderful. Um, and again, I love that there are two of us who are bringing two different vantage points to the table. Yeah. And you're not gonna agree with, we know you're not gonna agree with me on everything.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

That's not true.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

And yeah, I know the truth. And there are gonna be times I go, you know what, here's what the research says, and this is what I found in practice. Yeah. And I think that will be very good to bring to our mamas.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Yeah. And you're really good about keeping up to date on all the research and and the things that clinically people are saying, and I am a sponge to that, but I'm not necessarily always digging for research.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

I think we're in a really different place of life, which again makes us a great team. Yeah, right. I don't have any littles at home. I have a hubby, and he at times is probably thankful that I'm not around all the time. I mean, you know, let's get real. And I love my husband of 45. I love him. Yeah, but we need, you know, our own thing. We do have our own thing, yeah. So I know, and I love research. I've always loved research, but I don't have kids at home, and I haven't had kids at home for a long time. So if I'm at Starbucks and I'm done with my charting, I'm probably gonna look at a study or I'm probably going to read a professional group and see what we're doing, or the Academy of Breastfitting Medicine. Where are we with this topic? Not everybody can do that. And the most important thing right now is your children.

SPEAKER_04 24:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

Right? So it's just it is a plethora of information out there from many different fields that impact what we do.

SPEAKER_04 24:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

We've got some really great research coming out because we are a new science.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

Yeah, which is wild to think.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

It really is. Yes, women have been breastfeeding forever, and women have had problems breastfeeding forever.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

I tell moms, I say, you know, when they do archaeological digs, they find tools that are used to cut tongue ties. Right. And I'm like, this is not a new concept.

SPEAKER_02 25:16

No, it's not a quote, fad.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

Right, or wooden nipple shields.

SPEAKER_02 25:20

Wooden ni-wait, wait. Yes. Wait. Wooden nipple.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

Yes, wouldn't I have a bond with wooden nipple shields, metal. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

That's wild. I know you know that.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Yeah. And we had wet nurses, you know, and people didn't think anything about breastfeeding somebody else's baby.

SPEAKER_01 25:36

No. Well, I did with my friend when we had babies around the same time. I'm like, well, you know, I'll just help you. She's refusing. We'll see.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

Oh my gosh, you know, that's gonna kill a lot of people listening to this test.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

Sorry, I am who I am. It is the norm in other countries. It is the norm.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

Here we have gone, we have become so backward from even the 50s.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

I think things are coming a long way. I mean, it it tends to be, it feels like it's two steps forward, one step back. Yeah, but I think we're making strides. Yeah. Even in the fact that breastfeeding rates are really climbing, right? Especially in Indiana or Indianapolis, I should say hospitals.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 26:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

I mean, I the hospital I worked at, I remember the rates of initiation, and that's how we measured it.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

Initiation versus long term. And there for a while we'd call people and do three months, six months, a year and check, right?

SPEAKER_02 26:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

And there are certain areas that have very high 92, 93% initiation rate. The question is, how long are they continuing? Right. And we are seeing an increase in those rates nationally as well. Um, but I fear that we're doing a lot of things in hospitals to sabotage some of that. And that's my only concern is especially when we're seeing cuts to staffing of lactation or um not replacing people in hospitals after attrition. Those things concern me. Fortunately, there's other help outside of the hospital, yeah. Right. Um, but they're busy in the hospital and they can't do everything as well as maybe we can on a one-to-one. We're fortunate in that respect.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Yeah. And I mean, I guess that kind of that brings us to the next thing that we'll we'll kind of touch on, and it will give a taste about what we'll talk about, but let's just let's touch a little bit on conflicting advice that families and mothers get not only from hospital nurses or lactation consultants, which I mean, I say all the time, I love nurses. They are the backbone of all hospitals. And I hear lots of conflicting advice that moms are given in the first couple days of their baby's life. Or maybe it's not conflicting advice, maybe it's you know what, you should triple feed. Okay, but for how long? I know a mom the last week, what's today this week? A month. A month of triple feeding, Kathy.

SPEAKER_04 28:16

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

And I was like, are you ready to rip your hair out? And she was like, Yeah, I can't do this anymore. I'm like, oh my god, yeah, not good advice. So maybe they might be given good advice, but then there's no like to what end? Right. And what's the goal? Right. And when do you stop? So talk a little bit about where you see moms mostly getting conflicting advice.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

Okay, so I want to talk about a couple of things with that. Okay. I will say that, oh gosh, the most conflicting advice comes from pediatricians. I know.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

But like we've already said, it's not their job to offer breastfeeding advice. Really do.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

Isn't it and if they would say, oh my gosh, I don't have an answer, instead of here, and that more and more are saying triple feed, more and more peds are saying triple feed, feed every two hours, which I have to say, in for my 40-year nursing career, I have never taught triple feed for more than three to five days, and that's controlled. Yeah. When we send a mom and baby out of an office and say triple feed, no end in sight. I've seen babies with feeding tubes, no end in sight. Uh-huh. Okay. So we are missing a lot.

SPEAKER_04 29:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

We send those families home, they're exhausted, they have a plan that's not functional.

SPEAKER_04 29:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Here is my thing. I do think many, many women have a gut instinct of something's not right here. This is not good for me.

SPEAKER_04 29:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Emotionally, physically. And they have a battle going on of I am mom, I can do it all.

SPEAKER_04 29:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:47

And they told me to do it this way. And the other side of them is going, This is awful. This doesn't feel good to me. They hit a wall.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

And dad's the same. Dad's the same. Right. They see their wife suffering. Right. And they know it's not right.

SPEAKER_00 30:02

Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

And then that's when they call us. Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

And even before that, be empowered to trust your gut. When you're something is not feeling right, or you go, this isn't working for me, Kathy, or whomever you're talking to. Well, then that is not the right plan for you.

SPEAKER_01 30:20

Yeah. Right? I mean, just it was last week I texted the group about this, but a pediatrician told a mom, oh, breastfed babies research, quote, research says breastfed babies gain slower than formula-fed babies. So you're fine. This baby had gained two ounces in two weeks from the date of birth. Did that pediatrician mean well? Yes. She did not want to freak her patient out about this baby's low weight gain. And so she gave a blanket statement to make her patient feel good in the moment and like, hey, you got this.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

But the baby was starving.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

And I do think we've seen an uptick of that where we have younger pediatricians trying to do the right thing and lactation support. And they have a little bit of knowledge they're trying to apply to big issues, right? Yeah. And so we end up with those kind of situations. Okay, your baby is not gaining, but the doctor said she looks great in every other way, but your baby hadn't gained in three weeks. That's not okay. Yeah. We and my statement is usually we have to have a standard. Yeah. Now we may say five date ounce weight gain minimum a week. And I can fudge a little here and there as long as I'm following up to make sure that baby's still gaining. Yeah. I can't just throw them out there and say, okay, everything's cool. If I can't prove it, I can't. So I think, and I will say in holistic natural world, that can be a problem.

SPEAKER_04 31:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

We are seeing more and more of that as well of babies that are in trouble because they're told by their functional medicine person. And believe me, that's who I see is functional medicine. Your baby is happy, they're doing fine. So don't worry about the weight. Well, there's a balance of that.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

There is a balance. There's a balance. Like we've already said, I'll continue to say, nothing is black and white. There's always a gray area. We have to find that gray area. But we moms are also getting conflicting advice from maybe other birth workers, whether it's doulas or midwives, um, friends, right, and chiropractors who offer breastfeeding advice. And how do we handle that?

SPEAKER_00 32:36

Because we're not always going to agree. And I'm very honest.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:40

I love your chiropractor. And this is what I'm seeing. I don't see a suck issue anymore.

SPEAKER_04 32:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

There's something else going on we still need to problem solve. And I'm not convinced it's occurring in your baby's mouth.

SPEAKER_04 32:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:53

So yeah, we have a conflict here. And this is where you get to be mom and you go, what makes sense to me? And it may not be me. It may not be my opinion or my experience. And I have to be okay with that.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

Yeah. They do get to choose.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

They do get to choose. And I empower moms to do that. We want moms to feel confident in their choices. Apply what this person's saying to you, what I'm saying to you. And then you get to decide your journey.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Right. Find what works for you. Right. And what feels best. Like you said, use your intuition.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

It's rarely wrong.

SPEAKER_00 33:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

Let's go into some myth busting. So each show, at least each show that it feels right, we'll do a little myth busting and things that we hear all the time and talk about briefly why that's not the case. So myth one, pain is normal. Your nipples just need to callous. Girl, I still hear that every day. Same. I can't tell you how often when I tell a mom who's just at her wit's end, when I tell a mom, you do not have to sacrifice your body to feed your baby.

SPEAKER_03 34:00

Right.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

And the tears that come after that, because either societally or they've been told this is normal. And we have to reframe that picture. It is, I mean, what where did that come from? Your nipples F to just quote callous.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

Well, I mean, in the olden days, right? I I remember my mom roughing up her nipple with a towel. Oh. Oh, it gets worse. I remember after the baby was born cleaning her nipples with alcohol.

unknown 34:30

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

That's what they were taught in the 60s, okay? Ouch. I know. I know. And I think what bothers me the most about this discussion is okay, people will say it's normal because so many women have pain. Okay, what do we do with the women that don't have pain? Normal versus common. Right. But then the moms that have no pain are not normal. Shouldn't that be our standard?

SPEAKER_04 34:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

Our standard should be, right? It took me three babies to get one that did not hurt me.

SPEAKER_04 34:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

Okay, we didn't understand tongue and lip tie with my first two. Okay. When you have a baby that jumps out of the womb and jumps on the breast and you have no pain, that should be our standard. Yes. But we've gotten to where, even in our profession, people in the hospital will say, Oh, pain is normal. You're going to have to get used to it. Yeah. It will take two or three weeks. And by the time we see some moms, they have blisters and cracks. And I and I had one mom recently, fissures in her nipple. Oh, yeah. Right? So we have to heal the nipple before we can learn to breastfeed.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

And I think that comes from people who don't know what to do about it.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:33

So they say it's normal. And then they don't have to do anything about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

Let's just work through it. Just curl your toes, bite your tongue.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

Right. I break it down on a scale of one to ten pain. Right. Irritation for a few days, maybe a two, maybe a three irritation.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

And sensitive nipples. Right. If you are that person with very sensitive nipples, that's another thing as well.

SPEAKER_00 35:59

That's a different thing. Now, if your pain is take your breath away and it's a five or greater, no. That isn't okay. No. That is not. And we will talk a lot about that and things to do to evaluate it and what to do to fix it.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

But girls, it's not okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:14

It's not.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

And don't accept that it's normal because it isn't. No matter who told you.

SPEAKER_01 36:19

You heard it here. Okay. Myth number two. It will come naturally. Don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_00 36:27

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

I have to say it all the time. Yes, it's the biological norm. No, it does not always come naturally.

SPEAKER_00 36:37

Right. And I will never forget sitting in a meeting with a big group of pediatricians and a doctor yelling at me from across the room.

SPEAKER_02 36:45

Breastfeeding's natural. Why do we need you? So are erections. Right. Why do you need Viagra? Right. Oh my gosh. It wouldn't go in there, but that's a good one. That's a good one. And labor. Yeah. Labor is natural. Is that pain-free? Right. We know it's not. It is not.

SPEAKER_00 37:04

However, you know, all of those things that we've done to intervene for labor has caused a lot of issues for babies feeding. So there's not anything that's really, quote, natural in 98% of deliveries, right? Yeah. We're getting better with that. But now we've medicated a mom. Now that baby's been medicated, now we're going, okay, it's natural. Make your baby breastfeed. Do it. And I'll just never forget that. But it's natural. It's natural. It's all natural. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

Okay. Uh, last myth will bust. Okay. Pumping output tells you your supply.

SPEAKER_00 37:42

Okay. So I could carte blanche say, no, that's not true. Yeah. Mom's in love with baby, oxytocin's higher. Baby that's sucking well is always getting more milk out. Yes. And I believe that that for the most part, I believe that's true. Yes. Okay. However, I do also believe that massage can increase oxytocin prior to pumping. Can help based on the research, moms get more milk out that more closely matches what a baby can get.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

Now there are a lot of outliers. Is the baby sucking correctly? Right. They're not. They're not going to get as much milk out as the bro as the pump, probably. Yeah. There can be a pump that's not functioning well. Bad motor. Small flanges. Right. All of it. Yeah. So, yes, for the most part, yes, we love our baby. And if we're not having take your breath away pain, that baby's going to get more milk if they're sucking correctly.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

Right. If they have no oral dysfunction, yes, they will be more efficient than your pump.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

And also, we've seen pumps take moms into hyperlactation. Yep. So again, it's nuanced.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

It is so nuanced.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

It is not black and white. Right. It can be true and false at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

It can be. Yeah. And that's why, again, every dyad, every mom and baby is different. Every pump that you leave the hospital with. So all those things, gosh, we're not, I guess we're not afraid to talk about anything. That's good and that's bad. Right. We speak our minds. We do.

SPEAKER_01 39:12

And have I put my foot in my mouth in the past? Yes. Will that go away? Probably not.

SPEAKER_00 39:19

We all do.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

We all do.

SPEAKER_00 39:21

We all do.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Well, those myths and and some of the conversations that we've had today are exactly the kind of subjects that moms can ask us about. So for episode in two weeks, because right now we've got the time for bi-weekly. Send us in questions that you're curious about, not something that is pressing that needs attention now. Right.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

For sure. Yeah. For sure. Um, don't sit at home and suffer. No. No matter who you're using, don't sit at home and suffer.

SPEAKER_01 39:57

You do not have to suffer.

SPEAKER_00 39:58

You don't. Find a board-certified lactation consultant that's knowledgeable and get with them.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

And and we'll be here for you too.

SPEAKER_01 40:07

That will always be the gold standard is individualized care.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

Right. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 40:12

Okay. Yeah. So starting next episode, you can send your questions either as a written email or as a voice message. We are going to put this in the episode notes as well. But our email is thefeedinghotline at gmail.com. And to leave a voicemail, it's speakpipe.com forward slash the feeding hotline. I've tested it. It's very easy to send in your voicemail. If you want to remain anonymous, tell us actually explicitly, you want to remain anonymous. We will never use last names. We can always talk about something in a general way and not make it obvious about who the person is. I love that. Okay. So if you have a question you want us to cover, send it in. We'd love to hear what's coming up for you.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

And just a quick reminder while we are board certified lactation consultants, this podcast, it is not a substitute for individualized care. Again, if something doesn't feel right, something's off, it's always worth reaching out for one-to-one support.

SPEAKER_02 41:25

Excellent.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

Okay.