Women who Recruit

Defining success on your own terms- a conversation with Danielle Johnson- Sirius People

• Laura • Season 1 • Episode 1

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0:00 | 41:14

Introducing the incredible Danielle Johnson as the very first guest on Women Who Recruit.

Danielle is someone who truly makes it happen. As a business leader and mum of two, she navigates the complexities of running a multi-brand recruitment agency while still showing up for the people who matter most- her family, friends and children. It's no easy feat!

In this episode, we go behind the scenes. Danielle shares an honest look at what it takes to be a passionate and successful leader, while managing the many competing demands of work and home life.

It's a real, vulnerable and heartwarming conversation that reminds us it's possible to pursue your professional ambitions without letting go of your personal ones.

We talk about her career journey and what led her to Sirius, what a typical day in her life actually looks like, the priorities and boundaries that help her create balance, and how she manages the many spinning plates that come with leadership and motherhood.

She may even surprise you with her Mother's Day plans.

Danielle is proof that women don't need to fit into a predefined box. We can build careers we're proud of, create family lives that work for us, and define success on our own terms.

SPEAKER_01

Welcome to Women Who Recruit. I'm your host, Laura, founder of Hope's Consult, a training and advisory business for recruitment agencies in Australia. I've spent my entire career in recruitment, and I'm just as passionate about our industry today as I was nearly 20 years ago. The purpose of this podcast is to get to know and celebrate the incredible women who dedicate their careers to our industry. This isn't just about the highlight reels or the big rise to the top, although we will definitely touch on that. We'll be talking about what it actually looks like: career choices, leadership challenges, ambition, doubt, burnout, and the constant juggle of work, family, and everything in between. If you work in recruitment and you want to be inspired by the stories of women in our industry, then this podcast is definitely for you. Welcome to Women Who Recruit. I am so glad you are here. Okay, everyone, welcome to this week's episode. Um, I am delighted to be here with Danielle Johnson. Thank you. From Sirius. Thank you so, so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to sit down and have a Natter with you. Um, so I'm just going to start with a little intro to Danielle. And sorry if this makes you feel uncomfortable. Everyone hopes their bio being read out. But just to give you guys some context, entering her 21st year in recruitment business management, Danielle leads Sirius as the national director across four diverse brands: Sirius People, Sirius Technology, Culminate Solutions, and Industrious People. She was named the 2025 RCSA Recruitment Leader of the Year. She's also vice chair of the RCSA Council and a member of the RCSA Executive Network, actively shaping the future of the recruitment industry. What truly sets Danielle apart is her passion for people, whether that's helping clients build high-performing teams or mentoring her own teams to achieve their potential. She's a firm believer in continuous improvement, leveraging data-led insights to identify opportunities, fill gaps, and drive meaningful change. A mother of two, passionate about cooking and experimenting in the kitchen, lives on the South Coast, Wollongong, rep in for the Wollongong, huge sports fan, and truly believes that life starts after 40. I'm hoping so because I'm 40 in August. So for Danielle, the journey is just getting started. There's always new challenges to solve, innovations to explore, and exceptional talent to uncover. What a career so far.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, two jobs only in recruitment. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think I knew that. Yeah. So I started in my first, um, my first job at 20. Yeah. Before that, I was a paralegal. So were you? Yeah, I used to work up on Macquarie Street. Oh my god, how funny. And I just got sick of traveling to the city every day. Yeah. Yeah, look at me now. Um, and I approached a Parramatta recruitment agency to find another legal job in Parramatta because I lived, you know, in the area at that time. And um sh the owner of that business um offered me a job starting a legal desk in their in their in their recruitment agency. So that was my opening to to recruitment life.

SPEAKER_01

So how old were you? 20. 20. And how long were you with that business? 17 years, 16 years, yeah. And so then how long was Sirius?

SPEAKER_03

Five years this year in July.

SPEAKER_01

That's amazing. What kept you in that first role so long? I would never have left if they didn't sell the business. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. It was an amazing, amazing role. I quickly transitioned from the, you know, I was I was doing a perm legal desk.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And then um, well, my first week, I was like, what do you mean I have to cold call? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I think a lot of us who like kind of, I mean, all of us kind of fell into it, right? But then we go, oh, it's a sales job. Right.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, we're not helping people here. But we are, but we're this is not a yeah, it's a sales role. Um, and I I remember in my first four weeks, the owner said, I don't think recruitment's for you. And I went, I'll fucking show you. I will show you, I will be the best.

SPEAKER_01

Nothing will fire you up like someone not having belief in you.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah. So during that time, um, you know, they it saw me move into a um a dual jest role, uh, white-collar, and then I moved into blue collar, then I became the business manager of the white-collar division, and then across the general manager across both divisions, and yeah, expanded and it was a beautiful little company to work for.

SPEAKER_01

How amazing.

SPEAKER_03

And they sold the business while I was on um maternity leave during COVID. Um yeah, so like how do now I find a job?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um, and I guess back then I wasn't a big LinkedIn person. I I remember, oh, people messaged me on LinkedIn all the time asking me for, you know, are you interested in blah blah blah? So I thought I might as well go through all those messages from like years ago and um started my my my journey.

SPEAKER_01

And you did it all on your own as in like reaching out to recruited yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I didn't use an agency or rec to rec. Um, but yeah, I started interviewing and landed at Sirius. And obviously after 15 years of recruitment and my many years of management experience and sales leadership, I had um a lot of options, I guess, at the time. Yeah. Um, but I'm very happy that I chose Sirius and would never look back.

SPEAKER_01

Five years later.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And it's so funny, isn't it? Because you're so, I mean, I feel like, and obviously my whole network is recruiters, right? So my LinkedIn is probably very different to a lot of recruiters, but I feel like you're so prominent on LinkedIn and in the industry now. And I know LinkedIn has really become like its own thing in the last, you know, 10 years, but what kind of caused that shift for you in kind of being more visible, LinkedIn, like that brand building side?

SPEAKER_03

Look, I joined Sirius to to grow out the the non-tech side of the business. Yeah, and then moved into the role I am. I think um having the position that I am, you know, part of the objective of Sirius is to have, you know, a better brand positioning or or, you know, how do we engage and attract the right people to come work for us? And I think leading from the front in that way and being being that not the face, but being um the presence that I need to be online is certainly an important aspect of of any role in a leadership.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, fair enough. What surprised you most about your like if you look back over your recruitment career and like you know, the start of your career, obviously like the sales piece, bit of a shock. Um, but like what surprised you most about kind of what it has looked like if you were to look back at it?

SPEAKER_03

Well, recruitment's hard.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And I think that people don't understand the resilience that needs to go into having any role in recruitment, whether you're starting out as a trainee or moving into a a leader, uh, a leadership role or building a business, building a desk, finding your right market. It is hard. And I think pe a lot of people give up really early.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um, and I think that was probably the the most shocking thing for me as well, like not being great at it at the beginning, but then, you know, really wanting it and wanting to prove people wrong early on. And I think if you have that fire in your belly, you'll always succeed.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, totally. It's funny, isn't it? Because I like started my when I became a consultant, literally like in that couple of week period, like Lehman Brothers crashed in the UK and like the whole market just went into disarray. And I just remember being like like looking back on it now, like was the best thing, it was the best way to cut my teeth because I didn't know any different. Yeah. And like everyone was saying no. And so it was about finding the people that would say yes. And it's like the GFC here in Australia. Totally. And I really feel for consultants who started their career like even in COVID because, or that like the COVID boom, I mean, um, because everything you touched turned to gold. And there's consultants now that, you know, three or four years later are like only really with the last couple of years.

SPEAKER_03

Learning how to do BD.

SPEAKER_01

Learning how to do the BD piece. And I think it's really hard to do it that way round. Yeah. I think when you start in this job and you just have that expectation from the beginning, like, oh, like there is a big prominent part of this world that's sales and the resilience and dealing with rejection. And I think getting that bit done up front is so important in longevity and then actually being able to weather.

SPEAKER_03

And just knowing how to have conversations, hard conversations as well with clients or with candidates. I mean, that that that pocket of the GFC and and then moving into the the COVID boom, I think one thing that was really important for me at Sirius and what's carried us through is that we they never stopped beating. Not one single consultant never stopped beating. And I think they're all in great positions now because of it. It makes such a difference. People that are still here and people that have moved on as well.

SPEAKER_01

It makes such a difference. And what's been like the hardest season of your career so far? Because you've obviously got kids, yeah. Obviously, the business that you you knew and you loved and you were committed to selling in a period of like absolute chaos in the world, and you would have had a small person. Like, yeah, is that it for you, or is it actually something else that that that has been kind of tricky for you to manage?

SPEAKER_03

If I'm completely honest, like this year has been the hardest for me.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

And I think um, I've got two kids. I've got a 13-year-old, well, nearly 13, um going on 19. And uh she's like she's beautiful, Mackenzie. And I have a five-year-old son who's just um started kindergarten this year. Okay. So I think navigating two children at school and having a a pretty big job, and I I seem to be just like missing things, the school things, not the work things. And it just shocks me that I can't just get my head around absolutely everything, which is obviously not um, you know, I've got a beautiful support system at home. My husband's fantastic. He actually, when I when I took the role at Sirius, he um and and Spencer was only 14 months. Um, he was a stay-at-home dad for two years. Amazing. So I've had great support. I'm a very, very lucky woman. Now that we're all back at work and school and doing, you know, full-time family life, it's hard and it's hard to juggle, and we're all exhausted. And um, but it's you know, it's it's life and it's great. But I think definitely adapting to my little baby boy going to school is has been difficult. Is that cross crunchy this morning? Oh, I know I'm gonna cry. Um, and like, you know, there's certain things you've got to pick and choose, like where you can be, and and and I've got a very, very flexible work, workplace, and um, you know, our owner has four kids himself. So the ability for me to duck out and do, God, I am crying. Um, yeah, I think it's just difficult. Because I am not having any more children.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And that is kind of um, you know, we made that that decision early on, but I think that is kind of this is navigating this hard part, is is hard for me.

SPEAKER_01

You know what? I feel I feel exactly the same, and I might well as well, because we very much, I know, like we're saying um because we made this we made the decision after Emma, who's three and a half, that we were one and done, right? Yeah. But and so whilst it's easier in that we've only got one, it everything is bittersweet, right? So you feel like if we miss something or it's the last time. It's the last time. Like every first time is the last time. And you know, I I just feel like even in the last year, I'm like, she's gonna start school in a year and a half. Like she's already talking about like I'm four in six months, and I'm like, how will I have a four-year-old? And then she's gonna be at school, and it's like, yeah, and there's so much to navigate with that, and there's so much mental load with that, but then there's also that like conflicting part of that of just wanting to be in it as well, you know.

SPEAKER_03

And that's right. And like I'm such a driven and ambitious person. Um, you know, it's that balance of career is my life. Like I am a working mum, like I love work, um, but I'm also a mum. Yeah. Yeah. And it's difficult to balance out. It is. And a wife, of course.

SPEAKER_01

I know. Well, yeah, that starts to pull down the list.

SPEAKER_03

Like it is, it's hard to give everybody what they need, and you know, where's where's the me time?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And that's what I definitely struggle with.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And I I totally agree with that. And I don't know, I think as women, you know, and actually, you know, my husband feels this as well, but like there's a lot of guilt when you take time to yourself, you know. It's like you you want to work, you want to spend time with your kids. If you want to go and spend two hours at the weekend doing anything on your own, that's a big chunk of the time that you get with them as well, right? So yeah, you do start to deprioritize that time or like, you know, try and fit it in at random times, but it almost can become more stressful trying to do it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_01

I definitely agree. Am I enjoying this massage right now? No, no, I feel guilty. Can I live with white eyebrows, you know? And yes, I can. I am I really loved Emma now loves coming with me to get my nails done, right? Yeah, and it's such a hack because they they will do a little paint of hers at the end, so she knows that she has to wait it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like it's the only way I can get stuff like that done. It's like I'm not that is not me time. Like that's not me time either.

SPEAKER_03

Correct. I've actually decided just to get rid of that. You just yeah, 12 months ago, I was like, I'm not doing nails anymore.

SPEAKER_01

It's it's little things like that that you just never used to think about. No, and used to fit it in on your lunch break or whatever, and then yeah, I can't even imagine with school and then the school holidays thing, like there's just yeah, it's it it's gonna get crazier. Yeah. And how do you like obviously you said that this year it has been the hardest with that, and it's a big transition. Like, what does that look like day to day for you guys as a family? Like, how and and things are always gonna get dropped, right? Someone, I had this really good um, I think I saw this LinkedIn post, um, and it was someone talking about like um, you know, you've got all of these balls, right? And you can't carry all of them, but it's just like the glass ones can't be dropped, right? So you always have to figure out which ones are the glass ones and which ones are the plastic ones that will kind of bounce back and there won't be too much damage. But like, how how do you guys like what does a day look like for you? How do you navigate it at the moment?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. So the biggest thing for our family um is having dinner together every night. And I cook a meal every night. Do you really? Yeah, every single night. That's absolutely. So I pre-plan all my meals. Like that's the thing I love the most, right? Cooking. So I've got to I've got to find time to squeeze that in, whether it were whether I get home at seven or or or whatever time. So biggest thing for us is we have a family dinner, cooked it, homemade dinner every single night. Um, and that is something that we I pre-plan every Saturday and then do shopping Sunday or whatever. But uh day for me looks like uh the alarm goes off at 4:30.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um, the days that I'm in the office, it's you know, packing lunches or jumping in the shower, and my husband takes um my my son to before school care, or depends on what he's he's a he's a he's got his own business, so it depends on how flexible his day is. Um but I'm basically on the train or or driving halfway in and grabbing the train from there and in the office. Um I don't get home until about 6:30. And it's, you know, at the moment it's reading, you know, nipsat in a tin. And um home readers with Spencer and Mackenzie's in your eight. So it's catching up, you know, on her day and the boys and all the you know, fun, exciting things that she's gonna tell me to. Um but it's always dinner. But we we actually are in bed by about 8:30, the whole family.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03

Um different on the weekends, different when there's my daughter plays uh where they both play league tag. So, you know, if there's training in the afternoons or there's uh he she plays a night game now on a Friday night. So yeah, sport on the weekends, but it's just a long day and it's like go, go, go the entire time. Yeah. Oh my god, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

The fact that you manage like we still struggle with getting everyone to eat at the same time. Yeah, right. I just non-negotiable in our house. Yeah, we do it a couple of times a week, and we will start doing it more when Emma goes to bed a bit later. Yeah. But at the moment, like the pickup, but food is a big thing for us, and and in my family growing up, that's what we did. You know, my mum went full-time. She was a single mother. We she had three girls and she went full-time and we had dinner on the table every night at 5:30. And now I think about it like just as a teenager, being like, What's for dinner tonight? You know, she'd tell us and be like, oh like, imagine like the the level of work that she was doing, you know. Like, it's yeah, but that that was a big thing for us growing up. Like home cooked meals, sit around the table, debrief on your day, like it's something that will it's gonna be really important to me.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it gives the the kids time to decompress a little bit as well. Yeah. Um, because you know, as soon as they get home from school, nobody wants to know how was your day, what'd you do, what'd you learn? Yeah. So they have time to just not think about that. And then we talk about, you know, something good or something bad that happened during the day. So that's nice, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I really um, yeah, I do that, I do it with Emma when I pick her up. I'm like, how was your day? Who'd you play with? Didn't I? And I always find like she does, yeah, she just needs a moment. It's like, mum, like she'll and then she'll start telling me stuff, you know, and I'm like, oh okay, you just needed a moment. Same as like, I need a moment. Yeah, that's right. And obviously with your commute, like, do you just work on it? Like, or do you Yeah, it depends.

SPEAKER_03

It depends on what I need to do and how I'm feeling. Uh uh, you know, I would love to just sit there and read my book, or you know, um, but normally if if I know I've got a busy day or I haven't planned and prepped enough for the for the for the following day or or or that morning, I will work the entire time on the train, which just gives me that buffer and breather because no day goes to plan. You know, you have your your schedule or whatever and you have time to block out to think or whatever, but um recruitment's crazy, right? And things change daily. Um, so working on the train is great. Um, or if I drive, podcast.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um, but um, there's probably not a lot of times where I just, you know, blast my favorite music and and chill out.

SPEAKER_01

No, you forget to do it, don't you? Yeah. Like, and I'm rarely in the car by myself now. But sometimes when you get in and like you look back and there's like no one in their seats, you're like, oh my god, this is like liberating. Like, but some but I often just opt for silence nowadays. Like everything is so busy and stimulating, you're like, actually, I've never valued silence more than I do now in my life. Very true.

SPEAKER_03

And it's a good, you know, allowing yourself to think um and giving yourself time to think as well. Yeah. Um, uh it makes you better at what you do.

SPEAKER_01

And how do you keep those boundaries between work and home? Like, are you the type of person that is logged on on the evenings? Like, can you switch your brain off? Because that's something I really struggle with is that disconnect piece of like work is over. And I think it's almost that transition piece from like being in work mode to being in mum mode. That transition for me, it takes a bit of time. I really struggle with just flipping the switch straight away. And I don't have great boundaries around getting my head out of business mode.

SPEAKER_03

Like, is that something that you struggle with or that you actually find that you're pretty I think um because I'm up and out of the house pretty early on the days I am in the office, the days that I come home after I've worked in the office, that's I go, I'm straight in the kitchen, you know, cooking dinner and and prepping and planning. I often won't log back on unless I really need to. Yeah, nice. Um, because I've I've had that extra hour and a half on the train each way to do what I need to do. The days that I work from home, very different story. I find that the days I work from home, um, I'm, you know, my my office is just right there. Um, and it's kind of in an open space where the lounge room is and the kitchen is. And so I find myself logging on a lot earlier and I find myself logging off a lot later. Um, you know, and I might in between make dinner or something like that. But you know, the days away from home, it's often you don't have lunch or you know, it's it's a different, isn't it? Yeah, I think you just get into a zone and a rhythm, um, and because and you get a lot more work done, of course, but it's also, you know, you the times you work from home, you know, you're supposed to be able to pick up your child and sit and and do things, but uh it's quite the opposite, I I find for me, which is a which is a boundary I need to work on.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's it's definitely something for me. It's like I don't have that, you know, often have that circuit break of the commute, right? And it's different if I've been in with clients and then like I go home and then I get to get it's almost like I've had that decompression. Yeah, but it's like last email, go to pick her up. Like you're still like your brain is still there.

SPEAKER_03

And sometimes when things are on at work, I'm I struggle to sleep as well. Yeah, that could be the perimenopause.

SPEAKER_01

I don't know, I don't know yet.

SPEAKER_03

I'm blaming work, but I'm definitely missing to me up at 3 a.m.

SPEAKER_01

daylight, you know. It's a crazy time, isn't it? And I don't know whether it's also because I get up, I'm the same as you, 4:35. Yeah, I need a bit of time in the morning to myself, like before everyone else is up. Um, and also like that, I say time to myself, not sat there meditating anymore. Yeah, you know, it's like it is a it is normally exercise, but then it's unloading the dishwasher, get doing the lunchbox, you know, but I just kind of need that time. But I think because I know I'm getting up so early, if I wake up at like that 3 a.m., it's like only an hour and a half away. Like the point.

SPEAKER_03

It's crazy, isn't it, to think like that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Just like there's no 7am lines anymore, you know. Think about my pre-kid routine in the morning. I don't remember it. Gym. Yeah. I was never a gym person. Well, that wipes out one thing on your list that you can do anyway.

SPEAKER_03

That's the glass ball I've dropped.

SPEAKER_01

I've dropped it for 20 years. Never picked it up. No, never picked it up. Um, but yeah, like you you have to choose what your priorities are, yeah, and and what's important to you. Like you said, cooking. Like that's your non-negotiable, right? That's your downtime, that's what's important to your family, that's how you literally feed your family with love. Like that's how it's special. With a with a busy job. Um, what is something that you um have had to let go of, like an expectation or a standard or a belief, or like that's actually made your life or your career better or easier or um that's a tricky one.

SPEAKER_03

I haven't had to think about this. What have I had to let go? I think control, yeah, learn learning to delegate and learning to hold people accountable and giving them the opportunity to fail. Yeah, nice. That's um that's a big one. And that's something that I think everybody needs to work on, right? Everybody wants to like I'm a I'm a helper, I'm a doer. I want to make your life as easy as possible. I'm thinking I need to make my life easier by making you learn and develop yourself. And um, and and most of the leaders that I work with have the same problems, right? They they want to be, they want to do, they want to, they want to, you know, be involved, but we're really disadvantaging the the younger people and the younger generation around us and below us if we don't give them something to grow and develop their own skills instead of doing it all the time for them or totally.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And recruitment's such a practical role. You spend so much time in the seat of doing. Yeah. And then I think when you move into leadership and senior leadership, it's that real mindset shift of where my value is here. Because you're so used to being able to like input, output you know, activity results, tools, like you you're practical, everything's tangible. And I think when you sit in that leadership role, it I certainly found it hard to shift into that mode of being like delegating is not offloading, it's empowering.

SPEAKER_03

That's right.

SPEAKER_01

But it's really hard to to make that to make that shift.

SPEAKER_03

And I often hear myself giving my leaders advice when I should be taking the advice myself. Oh, I should do that. Um I should probably Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And has there ever been like any times in your career where you feel like you've had to lead in a way that is not aligned with you or not authentic to you? Or do you feel like you have been able to kind of carry your you through your leadership journey?

SPEAKER_03

Anyone that knows me will know that um I am unapologetically me all the time. Um very um, I wouldn't say loud, but very uh well, I wouldn't say direct either. I think that I just I have a presence and I've never, never once wanted to or had to change. I'm very fortunate that um the people around me at Sirius like hopefully they they like my what I bring to the to the business and the and my personality. But I think um, yeah, no, I haven't I haven't really had to change. I think I've had to learn to distance myself and and set boundaries for myself within the office. Um and that's that's purely because I've moved from from one role into another.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um and I probably think I've done a little bit too quickly.

SPEAKER_01

That that transition.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, not not the transition into another job, but the transition of distancing myself. Yeah, okay. Um, because you know, I was I was there all the time and and instead of moving into that more strategic level. Yeah. But that's reflection, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, totally. And like we can't yeah, it's how how we carry the things that we would have done differently, right? You can only do with what you can only do what you can do at the time with the information you have and with the tools that you have. Yeah. Um, and obviously that transition from your previous, because the folk you obviously said started legal but then grew out kind of white collar, blue collar, the transition over to serious, like culturally, was it super aligned from the get-go for you? Did was it given that you'd been in your previous environment for like such a long period of time? Yeah, how it was that a big shift for you, and especially with having a 14-month at home, like it wasn't because I think the the value alignment for me was was there.

SPEAKER_03

Um, and recruiters are all the same at their core. They're they're driven, they're ambitious, they want to achieve, they have personal goals, they have bigger goals. Um so no, it wasn't hard to transition. And I think the people that were at Sirius when I first started really made me feel very welcome. It quickly, well, I started the day when we went into our second lockdown. Yeah. Yay.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, remember that time?

SPEAKER_03

It was difficult to lead and grow a team and become part of a team as well. Yeah, via a camera.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Via Zoom.

SPEAKER_01

And was your son in daycare?

SPEAKER_03

No. So my father my father, my my husband. That's how you stay at home. Stayed at home. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_03

So I would be locked in my little office. Fully remote. Fully remote, but there for like 12 hours a day, starting a new job, leading a division, and yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It would have taken some guts.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it was crazy times.

SPEAKER_01

It was crazy times. I yeah, I remember that second lockdown was brutal, wasn't it? But um, yeah, like having to deliver all my training online was like killer for those few months. Yeah, and it didn't fully transition back. And in my first trimester with Emma, and I was so sick, I was doing all of my training online, but things had just started opening up again. And I'm like, how am I? I don't understand how I'm gonna travel again. But I literally would be like logging on to do like a two-hour workshop and then having to like lie, you know, lie on the floor for like half an hour, quickly run off for a gun, get back on. And it was brutal, like it was exhausting, it was draining for people. I think recruitment became very, very hard around that time.

SPEAKER_03

Do you think we'll ever transition away from an on-screen or like have having a an online presence um in our in our roles, whether that be training, leadership, development, even client meetings, candidate meetings?

SPEAKER_01

It's so interesting, isn't it? I actually was having this conversation earlier on this week because I think people are craving more of that face-to-face time again. And I think I think we I think we look at flexibility kind of we still look at flexibility in the way of like what days do you work from home? That's crazy, isn't it? And I'm like, true flexibility, and I was really lucky with my husband in his in his last role. Like he he his boss had two young kids, right? So he just got it. And it's like true flexibility. Yes, they had kind of rules around when you're working from home, when the office, but the true flex would be like, Well, Emma's got the doctors this morning, so of course he's going in at 11 so he can, you know, it's just like and he would log on every evening and work. And I think like allowing people to work in a way that actually suits what their life rhythm is and their family rhythm is true flexibility. Um, but I think people are starting to crave more of that face-to-face time. I've certainly seen like consultants who have only really been recruiting since COVID start to find it way more enjoyable being out and about meeting people and going to events and holding events. Every event I've been to recently has been packed. I think people are actually craving that contact. Um so I think it will always be there. I think it will always be a useful tool. But I'm hoping that it's we don't hide behind it forever, you know. Like how different does it feel to sit in the room with someone?

SPEAKER_03

Crazy different. And it's so much better. You instantly build rapport, you can see them, you can feel their emotions, yeah, sense their body language. Energy, right?

SPEAKER_01

And even when I decided to do this podcast, one of the options I was looking at was doing it, you know, via Zoom and like just doing the rapport because it's just just me and my business. And then I was like, no, like I want to have real chats with people, and I just do not want to do that. Yeah, yeah. Like I didn't want to do, yeah, I want to see the dig in real life, I want to see them on the table. I just didn't want to do it over a screen. No, I just felt so impersonal. And you know, the difference between an in-person meeting, it's so different to online, right? You know, on an online meeting, say it starts at nine, everyone has got another meeting at 9:30. I know, you know, whereas in-person, you always used to leave that 20-minute, even a half hour buffer.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I've got to get from here to here, walk, and yeah, it's so different.

SPEAKER_01

And like my online life was less busier, functional and life, yeah. And I think, and I I find it hard to be objective to that because I'm like, my life is busier, you know. So I'm like, is life just busier, or is it just that, you know, I had a kid and certainly busier and it just feels busier. Um, but I think people are craving definitely more of that one-to-one. Yeah. Just face time with people, community.

SPEAKER_03

Even staff in the office want one more.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I a lot of people have been like a lot of consultants that I know, and they choose to go in a few days a week. Yeah. Like they can work in the office.

SPEAKER_03

We have most people working in the office full-time.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Some people opt to have the the days that from home.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um, but yeah, more most often than not, people want to be in the office. Amazing.

SPEAKER_01

And that's so that's such testament to the culture, right? And the type of people that that you're bringing in. Um, yeah, I've got a client in Melbourne, they all choose, they can have a couple of days working from home. They all choose pretty much to be there every day. You know, it's blue collar, it's bar space, they want to be able to like have those conversations and bounce off of each other. And I think there's a lot more of that. And I think it's just then saying, like, we've got your back, like when you need it. I think that's what people need. They need to know if I don't know, the washing machine breaks, they can stay at home that morning. It's like proper flex as opposed to counting the hours. Um and what do you think is different? Well, not even different, but like what for women in recruitment, do you think that they carry it in a different way? Like, is there anything that you think women in our industry kind of quietly carry that maybe male counterparts don't, or where the struggles are, the challenges are for women in our space? Like, what are your thoughts around that?

SPEAKER_03

I think women certainly carry a lot more than men, and and not to say that we carry more or or or what they carry is not um is not hard, but um it's just different. Um, and I think being emotionally intelligent around the differences is really important as a leader. I think it's very difficult to hire in um hire women into leadership positions, um, depending on what stage of of life they're going through. It's very hard for women to return um into leadership positions or new leadership positions after having babies. Um I I don't know if if I mean we have we have a great group of women at Sirius. We actually have a little club called the Women of Sirius. See you. Yeah, we do breakfasts and we do some lunch. Yeah, and we do like cool things like go to Chicago or no, but it's really nice to have that um ability to um rely on each other and and support each other along the way. We certainly want to see more more women in leadership and we promote um, we have a really strong promotion culture at at Sirius as well to to bring people up through the ranks. Yeah. Sometimes people just don't want to do that though. They don't want to go into leadership, which is which is fine. But do I think um women, what was the question? Like just carry something differently.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I do. I think I think we're looking at myself, I get emotional. Um I can quickly pull myself out of it. Um, but I think that the biggest thing for me is you just don't know what people are going through on on the outside. Um, and to just never, never, never, never be quick to judge um because you just don't know.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And I, you know, I I I'm cautious of generalizing, right? But I think as women, naturally more emotional beings, this role, you're dealing with people all day, every day, right? And so I think that emotional element of the job can definitely take its toll. Yeah. And then you've got to weigh into that, even just like the the hormonal journey women go over over a month, let alone them having kids and then or entering the next phase of their life. Perimenopause and then menopause. And like I think there's there's so you know, we don't just operate on this even keel even over a few week period, right? So then when you have a a high pressure, busy, quite emotional job, it it's it's a lot, it's a lot. And you can see why then women, you know, the the the desire potentially to get into leadership and carry more emotional load, especially in an industry like recruitment, might not be as appealing.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that's right. And and looking at, you know, when they do start a family, the the balancing act and it's it it is quite different.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. And I and then there's a lot of consultants who I know who are like, I don't know if I can go back to running a desk when I've got, you know, an 18-month-old at home. Like it's just we absolutely can.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, women are amazing. They are amazing. And we can do anything.

SPEAKER_01

And I think it's a confidence piece. Yeah. You know, it's like, how do we actually like bolster women's confidence after they've had families? And I I, you know, if I run my own business and I remember like eight months after Emma, you know, was born, being like, I how am I ever gonna get back to the same level of confidence in like the work that I do? Like my like my everything I knew has been completely blown apart, right? And I think it's that emotional support of women returning to the workplace and and actually like, what do you what do you need to get comfortable again here? You know?

SPEAKER_03

Um and it's even just returning to work after having a baby, you know, people's bodies change and we still have to, you know, be this confident, outgoing, you know, corporate girly. And some people sometimes you just want to put a pair of runners on and not wash your hair for a week. But you know, makes it just regularly. Um so I think that's difficult as well, like having to get up and um I yeah, having to get up and and doing all that, whereas men might just get up and you know, put a shirt on and oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01

My my husband will hate me for saying this. I don't know if he's ever washed his hair with shampoo. Do you know what I mean? Like he's got short, like I'm like my whole shampoo conditioner, leave-in conditioner, yeah, Malaki, and I'm just whack some shower gel on it, you know? It's like a very, very different getting ready experience. And I'm not even like a super girly girl, and it's I still need some time. Like if you could give some advice to your younger self or to like our audience now, women who are coming through into the industry or even stepping into leadership, like to support them with kind of navigating their career and life and everything around that, like what advice would you impart?

SPEAKER_03

Um, okay, so um, younger self and younger, younger women, I would definitely say um don't be so hard on yourself because even though the job is hard, you definitely can get through it. I think looking back, um the advice I would give myself is you know, be kind to everybody because you know you never know, well, not to myself, but to everybody, you never know what is going on behind closed doors with anyone. Um and kindness goes a long way. I think um seeking advice early, if you're unsure about something, never be afraid to ask. I think sometimes women in general are are too scared to show vulnerable vulnerability and um and that they can't do it, or that, you know, um, especially if they're working with a lot of um, you know, male counterparts, they might be in a different desk or doing better, or you know, seeking advice early and and nailing, you know, your development pieces is really important. Um, biggest piece of advice, that's probably it, really. And just keep going, be resilient. We're amazing. Yeah, we can do wonderful things.

SPEAKER_01

We are. Um, and what's your go-to outside of cooking? Is there anything else like I've had a fucking day of it? Like kids doing your head in, work's being stressful, like obviously we don't get a lot of downtime, but like what's your I've had a day of it ritual? You know, if you could, you don't get to maybe do it as much at the moment, but like if you could design it, do it guilt-free, what would it look like for you? Um ultimate self-care, fuck everyone type thing.

SPEAKER_03

Just leave me alone. And with a with a maybe a really nice bottle of French rose and my like I've got the best day planned for Mother's Day, and I've only curated it today. Yeah. So the UFC to share it. Yes. Okay, right. So the UFC's on, and it's a great title fight, but the tigers are also playing at the same at the same time. And I'm like, Shane, I don't think we can we'll be able to watch both at home. Maybe I should go to the pub by myself and and have the UFC on and and my beautiful tigers. And like that is the ultimate day, like a big bowl of chicken wings.

SPEAKER_01

Oh my god, I love that for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it, and then I love that a lot of people potentially would have expected this to be like, right, well, I'm gonna go and get ambassadors.

SPEAKER_03

No, no, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01

Go to the pub on your own, having a few drinks. Like, yeah, you know what?

SPEAKER_03

I I did a quiet space so I can concentrate on the game without being asked, Mom, we really struggle with that.

SPEAKER_01

Like, that's the football, the AFL has always been one of our things, right?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And we love going with Emma and we love that she's interested in it and that she's learning all the players and stuff. Sometimes we just want to watch it. Yeah, you know, stop talking. Just want to watch it without someone wriggling around and like didn't realise like little things like that that you that you just don't get anyone. So whilst you get the beauty of sharing it with them, sometimes you just want the silence.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. I definitely that's what I'd love. I'd love silence.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. Oh my god. That's what I want for Mother's Day.

SPEAKER_03

Or like take myself out on a little date where I uh like have the best meal ever or you know, something nice. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Because it's I don't know about you, and I obviously love seeing my girlfriends and catching up with my girlfriends, and but like sometimes I want that night out on my own, you know. Like I've I've done it a couple of times where I've literally have taken myself on a little date, got some food, had a glass of wine, taking my taking my Kindle. Yeah, sometimes that's what I need. I don't need more stimulation or more energy burn. What I actually need is to be out in the world but on my own and remember what that feels like.

SPEAKER_03

Sitting in the sun. Six oysters and a glass of champagne. So good.

SPEAKER_01

That's inspired me from Mother's Day. Danielle, thank you so, so much. You're very welcome. Um, for your honesty and for sharing your journey. It will be so inspiring. Um, you are an inspiration definitely to the industry. Um, and I'm really, really grateful to have had this morning with you. Thank you. I've loved it. Thanks so much, Laura. Thank you so much for tuning into this episode. I really hope you enjoyed it and have taken something away from it. Click follow to receive new episodes as they're released. And if you know someone else in recruitment who needs to hear this episode, please, please send it their way. Lastly, leaving a review is so appreciated and helps others find the podcast. I really look forward to seeing you next time.