Doing the 'work' to create a life you love- Michelle Barrett- Lotus People

This episode is extremely special to me, and not just because Michelle is one of my best friends in the world, but because watching her professional and personal journey over the last 12 years has been nothing short of inspiring. 

Michelle is testament to the fact that hard work, commitment, and a willingness to learn and grow will bring you boundless success in our industry. 

And the journey has not been without its challenges along the way.

In this episode we dive into Michelle’s early career in recruitment, how she almost walked away, and what caused her to stick it out to become one of Australia’s highest billing temp business support Consultants.

We talk about her transition into leadership and the identify shifts that came with it, her adult ADHD diagnosis, pushing outside of her comfort zone and the deep personal work she has done to get her where she is today. 

Michelle is an incredible human who continually challenges herself to grow, shows up wholeheartedly for others, and has intentionally built a life she loves.

I'm so grateful she shared her story with such honesty and vulnerability. Alongside the deeper conversations, we also had plenty of laughs, and I hope you find this episode as uplifting, inspiring, and enjoyable as I did.

Transcript

0:01

Welcome to Women Who Recruit. I'm your host, Laura, founder of Hopes Consult, a training and advisory business for recruiting agencies in Australia. I've spent my entire career in recruitment, and I'm just as passionate about our industry today as I was nearly 20 years ago. The purpose of this podcast is to get to know and celebrate the incredible women who dedicate their careers to our industry. This isn't just about the highlight reels or the big rises to the top, although we will definitely touch on that. We'll be talking about what it actually looks like: career choices, leadership challenges, ambition, doubt, burnout, and the constant juggle of work, family, and everything in between. If you work in recruitment and you want to be inspired by the stories of women in our industry, then this podcast is definitely for you. Welcome to Women Who Recruit. I am so glad you are here. Hi everyone. Welcome to this week's episode. Hope you are enjoying the podcast so far. I am absolutely honoured and delighted to be here with one of my besties this week's episode featuring Michelle Barrett. Welcome. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. So I'm just gonna start as I do with Michelle's bio, just to give you guys some context around who she is and what she does. I was also very disappointed, Michelle, that you didn't put on this that you are my best friend. And that wasn't included. But whatever, we will um so that's been number one. Yes, and so I'll add it. Okay, so Michelle Barrett is director of client partnerships across Lotus People and Lotus Executive Search, where she runs the business alongside fellow directors Amy Locke and Iona Colville. She started in recruitment in 2014 and joined Lotus in 2017 as a consultant, working her way through team lead, associate director, all the way to director. A former million-dollar biller with a highest quarter of $495,000 on a temp business support desk. She's part of the team behind Lotus being named Australia's number one agency for candidate experience six years running. Before any of this, she was a competitive gymnast in Ireland, holding all Ireland medals, which taught her most of what she knows about discipline, failure, and getting back up. Originally from Ireland and 13 years into life in Sydney, Michelle leads with honesty, cares more about the long game than the quick win, and is still learning how to hold ambition and real life in the same hand. How does it make you feel like hearing it? It's like very awkward. I'm like, oh, this is weird. It's like hearing your life story. This is your life. And I also think, like, I don't know about you, but like I also find as women, like we just find it really hard to like hear that and celebrate it and live in it, you know? Trying to make a Catholic, not practicing, but and as a real mixed and tell me clouded in shame, you know. I think it is, it's like it's it's awkward, right? Like, and I think especially, I don't know, for for women, it's like, how how dare I sit here and celebrate, you know, a successful career experience and take up space and have people hear about me, you know, like which is exactly what you know this podcast is about and for. Even as you were saying that, sorry to interrupt. In my head, I'm like, oh, but you know, I had an amazing academic manager helping me during that time, which is very absolutely could not have done it without her. And then it's like, oh, but this person helped with that. And it's like, no, just just sit in it. It's okay. You're allowed to own it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's funny, it's like, oh yeah, but that's you know, there was a lot of help along the way. It's not all just me. Yeah, I know, and it's this classic imposter syndrome, um, self-confidence thing that we sit in, isn't it? Like, yeah, apologetic to take up space. Yeah. Um, and I feel like I'm, you know, in these episodes, I want to ask everyone how they feel about when I read their bio because I think it that's says a lot about the level of humility and the emotional connection to our success and just how comfortable we feel actually owning it. I love someone says that they feel proud. I would love someone to be like, yeah, I feel proud and own it and just like Absolutely, like, yeah, that's me. That's what I've done. And and you are like, you know, with with the level of billings that you had as a consultant and the career that you've had so far, you know, it's incredibly impressive. Incredibly impressive. And I know that, you know, that I won't bang on about that too much because I don't want to make you feel too uncomfortable. But it is incredible what you have done throughout your career. And so we're what, uh 12 years into your recruitment journey now. If you think back to the start of it, you know, at the beginning of your recruitment career, like what did you think that this career would look like? And, you know, what surprised you most about it? It's funny because I was thinking a lot about this on the way here, and I have never been a five-year plan type of person. So I don't think I ever had that, okay, in X amount of time, I want to be this or I want to do this. I was very lucky in that I met you, you interviewed me for my first recruitment job, and so did Schneid, uh, who's the founder of Lotus People, and you saw, you know, potential in me, and I'm very grateful for that. But for me, the most important thing was doing a good job, you know, working really hard, making people happy, like it was all really kind of external. Yeah. And so I think the and I think the theme for me on this podcast has been like unlearning, like unlearning habits of everything is external validation in terms of my career and going. And and a lot of that has happened in the last couple of years, stepping away from my desk, which you know, you could really easily quantify my success based on that, whereas a lot of what I do now, of course, there's metrics within it, but a lot of what I I do day-to-day goes unseen, and it's not like, yay, you're the top filler. So it's like I've really had to unlearn that and and do the work to get to that point personally and professionally as well. So, and I guess to answer your question, for me, I hate this phrase, and I, as I say, fell into recruitment, but you know, was lucky enough to meet you and Sinead and have a really positive experience. And it's just opened up my world in so many ways. Like I could never have dreamed that I would have a career and endless earning potential and meet loads of people, but also have a job that I actually really love and get to work with businesses I would never have exposure to and be in a room and be like, oh my God, I can't believe they're telling me this. Like, this is amazing. But genuinely, and actually getting to help people and make a difference in people's lives. And like, you know, I caught up with a client of mine recently who was a candidate. She did a one-day reception role for me, and she got offered sponsorship and was with the company for five years and became head of talent. And now she's in a different business. And it's just like, how cool is that that I got to do what you and Sinead did for me? And yeah, it's I don't know if I answered that. Yeah, no, it's amazing. And I think like that's you know, I I I shout about this a lot, but like recruitment gave me a career, like it gave me a life that I never could have imagined, like living in the other on the other side of the world in a country that I adore with a career, with great earning potential, with the ability to to live where I want to live and have a family. And like I never would have thought that as a 20-year-old rat bag, you know, like I know, you know, I was like, living on a boat in London if I'm keeping a job at this rate, like, you know, yeah, living on a boat, that's another story. Um so yeah, I it gave me it gave me a life that you know I'm really proud of. But I think it's really hard work. And we were talking about this in Danielle Johnson's episode around that shift from being a recruiter where it's highly practical um and very uh results driven and proven to then moving into leadership or you know, the broader responsibility that comes with running an agency and the the mindset shift that takes to be like, where is my value? Because I think when you have a really solid, successful career in recruitment, the value is always in this is how much money I made for the business. Whereas when you can't quantify that in the same way, um, that that can be challenging. How have you dealt with that? Like, what what has worked for you in terms of unlearning some of that stuff to be able to go, no, I I my value doesn't just come from the number that I generate. I mean, I think it's been a work in in progress. And as you were you were asking that question, I was thinking of like the difference of me starting with Lotus in in 2017, and you know, on one of my first weeks, I kept saying to Sinead, oh, I'm um, I'm just gonna go for lunch now. And she's like, respectfully, I do not care. You can do whatever you want. You're an adult, like, do whatever you want. And so I guess in the same token, moving away from you know, running a desk and having the autonomy of running a business, you know, not not asking for permission to do things. Yeah, you know, and I think uh a lot of what I've done to get past that is personal work as well, outside of work. And so I've done something called the Hoffman uh process, which really it's like a week long, it's not a retreat, but it's like a uh intensive. I think they say it's like seven years of therapy in one one week, and it was wild and scary, but like that really helped me work on that self-doubt. Like that's been a massive thing for me over the years. Um, I really always thought, like, oh, I'm you know, not the smartest in the room. If I'm not the best, I'm the worst. And um, you know, that whole take up space that we joked about earlier on, like that was a really big thing for me. And I think another thing that really changed how I view myself and um how I approach work in life was getting diagnosed as an adult with ADHD because I had a terrible time at school. I was always told, you have so much potential, but you are lazy, you need to concentrate. Like, why can't you apply yourself? And I mean, look, could I have tried harder? Yes. Um, but I also just can't learn in that way. And so, you know, when uh throughout my my life up until I got that diagnosis, I was like, oh, well, I'm really stupid. Like, I always had this such a firm belief, I'm stupid. Everyone else is more smart than me, more smart as I say that, um, is more intelligent than me. Um, but getting that diagnosis gave me so much self-compassion. I was like, oh, well, my brain just doesn't learn in that way. And I'm smart in different ways. And I was actually talking to um someone, one of my colleagues recently about this, uh, because she got a diagnosis as well. And just, you know, she said that she she was struggling as people naturally do, because you're kind of going through, oh well, my life would have been so much less difficult, and and all of that. Whereas for me, when I got my diagnosis, I was like, Yes, I'm validated. Like I understand myself, that's just how my brain works, and I've done very well as a result of it. And like you call it your superpower, which I really that really resonates with me as well. Yeah, and I think, and and thank you so much for sharing that because yeah, same as you obviously was diagnosed when I was 32. Um, and it was so validating because again, I spent my whole school years. You've got lots of potential, you're very naturally smart, but you don't apply yourself, you cause trouble, you're easily distracted. Like I was taught that I I was I wanted to be bad, you know, people that I had an incentive or a natural inclination to be naughty, right? And so for me it was always like that naughty thing that I really had to kind of unlearn. But then the diagnosis was so validating. And I also think there's a high, I see such a high um prevalence of neurodiversity in recruitment. And I think it's because it's a role that doesn't require an academic brain, but it requires a brain that can um pivot easily, a brain that can problem solve, a creative brain, a spontaneous brain, an impulsive brain, excuse me, and and a practical brain. And that's what so much of this job is. Um and so I think being diagnosed when I had created a career was kind of like, ah, like I ended up in the right space, regardless of the fact that I didn't know. You know, I wasn't like I didn't keep trying to force a square peg into a round hole. It was like, no, I found the exact thing that actually that I'm good at because of this, as opposed to trying to push myself into something else. And I could never have, you know, done anything academic. My brain just doesn't work like that. Same. That that it just made me think of my my younger sister. She's a nurse, she's incredible um at what she does. But she tells a story of when she was in uni, she was doing her second degree because she'd studied intellectual disability nursing, then she got her nursing degree. And when she was doing her final exams, her lecturer said, Look, I think you might be dyslexic. You should definitely get a diagnosis, it will help you with time and all of that. And she went and got got diagnosed, and she was very, very upset because again, school could have been a lot different. Why didn't people pick this up? Like it was a real struggle. And her lecturer was like, Look, I hold space for that, but you're getting your second degree, you're doing fine. And she was like, Yeah, okay, fair enough. I did need a bit of a shake. Yeah, she's like, Okay, but uh think you managed to do it. I think you're doing okay. She's like, Yeah, yeah. But um, I yeah, I think that's a lot of it, right? Things could have been a lot different, but thankfully, yeah, my brain just doesn't really work like that. Like, I don't, I definitely ruminate on things, but in terms of like, and I guess it's to speak to your point about how life has turned out, like I have been very successful despite or because of it. Yes. And so I don't have any. I mean, there was a moment of me being like, my teachers could see me now, my dad was like, Michelle, no one like you're doing fine. No one's like, Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah. I know I had the same thought, like a bit of a real like, look at me now. Like, nobody cares. Um, and was there like have there been any moments? Because like you've obviously been in recruitment now, like 12 years, nearly 10 years at Lotus, which is an amazing, amazing like commitment. Um, have there ever been any moments for you? And I don't even think I've ever asked you this before, like personally, have there ever been any moments where you're just like, fuck this, I don't want to do it anymore? Oh, look, I'd be lying if I said I didn't. I mean, like serious ones, not like end of week, like, oh fuck this, I don't want to think about it till Monday. Um questions of like, is this what I want to do with my career? Yes. I mean, I would say the first four years in recruitment, they weren't all bad, obviously, you know, working with H was amazing, but there were some really, really, really hard times. Like, for example, and everyone, I think, when you start in recruitment, nothing can prepare you for that. Like you can explain it to within an inch of your life, but until you're in it and it clicks, it's really hard. And even when it clicks, it's still hard. Like, there are really like low lows. And so for me, there was, you know, a period of time where I genuinely was really bad at my job. Like it hadn't clicked. I wasn't good. I was like, no, there was. Honestly, I was not good. I was like, honestly, doing really bad. Anyone listening to this? I don't know. I don't I don't know. I don't think you were there that there's other people that'll be listening to this. But genuinely, I seriously didn't have a clue what I was doing. I honestly, I think I probably like cried every day. I don't know how my partner's time now husband was so amazing, but I yeah, I would just go home and cry. I also had um a family member that was really unwell and I couldn't afford to go home, and that was really hard. And I think, yeah, that period of time I was just like, why am I doing this? This is so, so hard. Um, so I definitely had moments of that, and I had to at the end of that, I had to go home and like go to Ireland for a couple of months, with which actually was really lovely. That was a really nice, nice time, but it was stressful. Um, and then I think the other time that I really, really had a big wobble was when I moved from I had to make the decision a couple of years ago. I didn't have to, but I was at a crossroads, as most people are when you get to that point where you're like, okay, I want to take the next step. Moving away from a temp desk and that insane mission and earning and going, okay, for the long term, I am going to have to step back from that. And as well as the obviously the financial component going it's scary, and I don't know what that looks like. And again, tied into that like validation piece and who am I? What's my identity without that? And so that was really scary for me. And I think it's been a journey, um, and there's been lots of learnings, but I have absolutely no regrets with it. Like I feel so proud of myself, and I am such like I'm a totally different person than who I was, obviously, when I started in recruitment, but um even in the past couple of years, like I think I've grown, I'd say in the last year or even six months, I feel like I've seen a lot of difference in how I show up. And um even I was saying to you before this, I was at a uh networking event this morning and I spoke at it, and like up until three weeks ago, I was like, I can't public speak. I just had like this thing in my head, even though I was a drama kid when I was younger, so like an a gymnast, right? Like I was performing. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And you you'd see me on, you know, get a couple of drinks into me and I'll be up on stage like thank you for a microphone. Not when he gave his own. You're not the only person that'll say that namely my husband. Um, but it uh, you know, I I just had convinced myself, like I can't do that, the fear of it. And we had uh an event recently uh for our uh customer experience leaders, and we needed one more panelist, and I'd avoided putting my hand up, and then one week I was like, I'm just gonna do it. Like, why not? I'm sure like I can do it. Like, I just had I don't know, I had something clicking me. I was like a little bit sick of myself. I was like, you know, you're kind of leaning so far into like I'm so afraid, which I was, but I was like, you just have to get over it somehow. And genuinely it was so much fun. Like I was really scared, but then standing up and doing it, I was like, Oh, I I can actually do this. Like it was so empowering. So how amazing is that feeling as well, like overcoming something and being like, oh, like the feeling of being proud of yourself, like it's so wonderful. And like then in the last like three weeks, you've just been on a roll because you had that. You're talking at an event this morning, and then you just come from that event to this podcast. It's still scary, but it's fun. Yeah, and I think it's you know, I think when you step into new roles, it's it is an identity shift, right? You're having to learn a new version of yourself. Like I remember when I started my training business, I was like, oh, I'm the newbie on the block again. You know, there have been people who have been training for 10, 15, 20, 25 years, 30 years, and I'm like straight out of an agency. I've only trained my own people before. Like I'm this is humbling. And I think then being able to look back at that and see, you know, how that journey develops, like that's when you get real pride in yourself, right? When you do the hard stuff. It's like the it's it's it's easy to keep doing the comfortable stuff. It's actually going like, okay, well, where is the challenge for me and where can I where can I meet that? And it's a really good point because I think, you know, I've been so uh lucky and privileged to, you know, have Sinead, you know, founder of Lotus, as I mentioned, who's also a bestie, um, you know, when she was involved in the business, be really encouraging and go, you should do this and you should do that. And so since she stepped away, and I've had been very lucky to have you as a coach and and be involved in that way, but since she's moved away from the business and now running the business, I have to do that for myself. So, like it's been again, that's been a learning and a shift within it. And I'm so lucky that um my co-directors, Iona and Amy, like we're such a good team. We work so well together and really compliment each other and disagree in the right way as well. But we really empower each other to do things like that and push each other very gently in that that regard. And honestly, I find the girls so inspiring in that way as well. Like they both speak at events, and I'm like, I think a lot of what gave me the appetite for pushing myself as well, is like, I want to do that. They're so good at it, I want to be proud of myself in the way that they are. And sorry to go back to what you were saying about um you starting your own business and and going out. We were talking about that after your event the other day, weren't we? I was just like, that is so so impressive for you to do that. Because there, you know, there are still are some really heavy hitters in the space, but you've done such an amazing job of building the like the credibility and the business that you have. All the time. Oh, I mean, at the event that you spoke at the other day, I was like, Oh my god, you're so amazing. I woke up that morning and I was like, oh god, like I've got to do a scary thing today, you know. But I think, like you said, you you do it and then you get the validation of like it's making the scary things less scary each time, isn't it? Right. And and challenging yourself, and then you get that sense of pride. And I think a lot of people in their recruitment careers, they do hit a point where they go, like, okay, like I'm in a 360 role and maybe don't want to move into leadership. Um, or they do, and that's you know, they develop their skills that way. But a lot of people kind of reach that principal consultant and kind of go, I don't know where where is next. And the role can almost be kind of limiting in that way of like if you don't go into leadership and you don't go internal and build like your TA kind of workforce strategy HR piece, it's kind of like, okay, well, how do I break out of this ceiling? And I think often we look at it as it has to be like a specific role that we break out with. But Maybe it is just challenging ourselves to do things in different ways, to like to to do the public speaking, to put yourself out there, to hold an event, like to actually look at what holds you back and grow those skills in a in potentially a role where there might not be scope or you don't want to develop in the traditional way. And I think that's a really interesting point because the benefit and the scary thing of me moving into I say moving to my new role, I've been in for two years, so it's not new anymore. But um, you know, I had the scope uh and I was so lucky to be able to shape that in the way that I wanted. Yeah. Which I was like, oh my god, it's so vast. There's so much I could do. That was kind of hard. But then also it was wonderful as well, because you could I could play to my strength. But my one big learning, I think, in the last month has been yes, the thing is scary, it's meant to be scary. Like I think I was always like, Well, everyone else, they're not really that scared. Yeah, they're not that scared, they're a little bit scared. Yeah, sorry. But I was like, oh no, actually, yeah, everyone is terrified, but you they still do it, and that's the thing. That's the thing. It's like, yeah, I've overcome this and I can do it, and I'm better for it. And totally, yeah. Yeah, it's that's just such a funny concept, isn't it? Like, we think if I'm this scared by something, it maybe it isn't for me. Or like I can't do it. Yeah, like we often it's like, oh, okay, well, that you know, that's just not my lane. That's too scary, therefore that that obviously isn't where I should play, you know. Whereas actually it's like you you can play wherever you you want if it feels good when you get there, you know. But like, as we know, like recruitment is terrifying in the first couple of years. Terrifying. That's why so many people don't push on with it because it's it's really hard. You'd feel like you don't have a huge amount of control, you're you're tested every day. Yeah, you feel like you're in a constant learning curve, which is fatiguing in itself. Um, and then you know, people are telling you to fuck off left, right, and center. Like it's really tough. And it's I think it can be quite lonely for newer consultants, depending on the structure of their agency and stuff, but to look at, you know, your senior billers and go, I can't even fathom how I'm how I would bridge that gap from where I am now, you know. 100%. And I think it's so easy for more junior consultants, and I'm I'm certain that I did it to go, oh, well, it's just easy for them. Like it's easy for them, that kind of thing. But I remember when, yeah, when I joined Lotus First and we were part of a bigger group and one of the top billers of the the other um division division, the other, well, we were all part of the same umbrella at the other agency. Oh my god, what am I trying to say? But the group, the group, yeah, Rob, he um consistently was top biller, and I would always go over to him and be like, I'm gonna beat you. Like, how do you do it? Tell me. And I every quarter I'd be like, What are you on now? And he's like, I don't know. And I'm like, I need to beat you, and it was just that. But we were re yeah, again, it was so lovely because we had that environment where it was really healthy competition. And to go way back to the start, you asked me what's a big been a big learning for me, and a huge learning about myself is which is ironic considering I was a competitive gymnast, but I thought I wasn't competitive. And then literally when I hit my stride in recruitment and when I was yeah, going up to Rob going, I'm gonna beat you. Um, I was like, oh, I am, and I'm so happy. I love seeing other people succeed. Yeah, but I also am very, very competitive in a healthy way. So it's um it's funny, but yeah, to go back to the the public speaking and the doing the scary thing. My husband, I hope he won't mind me quoting him on this, but he was like, just have to do what I do when I speak in front of people. You just have to think I'm the best in the room. I don't believe it, but you just have to think it. And I was like, okay, so fair enough. Knowing your husband, that's the most him thing. That don't mention me. Great advice, cheers bag, right? Off I go now to do my scary thing to think that, I know. But then I was like, you know what? Not to generalize, but what a man. And well, you know, not sweeping statement, but no, and this is what I I was gonna say about that competitive piece, right? I love that you own that because I think there's a lot of women that potentially feel like maybe that's too much of a masculine quality to like own or be really proud of. Do you know what I mean? And it's like there's a healthy way to be competitive with self, with others. But um, I think as women, you're kind of taught like somewhere along the way, and this is a generalization, but somewhere along the way, it's like being competitive almost makes you like too strong of a person or bitchy or difficult, or where it's actually like having a competitive nature is what drives every sportswoman, every sportsman, obviously, but it it's imperative for this industry. And if we if we have shame around that, yeah, that can really then affect how we do show up and the the way that we actually even approach the role. And I'm so glad, and I know you've done a lot of work on that stuff, like you mentioned. I'm so glad you can sit here without any of that. Because I think I still have some stuff around, like even as you were saying it, I'm like yeah, like I am really competitive. Then I'm like, oh, ooh, do I like that? About do you know what I mean? Because I think I've always had connotations of, or maybe been taught or somewhere through the way subconsciously picked up that being competitive is like maybe not the nicest feature. You know, like that's so interesting you saying all of that, because I feel like I don't that's never really crossed my mind. Yeah, maybe it's like a I mean, we all have our own things. But um, what I did one thing I found really interesting was um uh, you know, I've been part of a run club previously, and you know, it's a real mix of guys and girls, we're all really good friends, worked together for years, and um with running the guys in particular really into it, you know, they do Ironmans and all that, they're amazing, couldn't even imagine doing that. But um, when we would talk about, like I'd be like, Oh, I not that I'd be competing with people I'm running with, but I'm like, I want to run at the pace, same pace as you again, competing with them to a degree in a healthy way. But the guys were like, Oh, I just want to be my PB. Like they're thinking about competing with themselves and being better than their last thing. Let's see. And I don't necessarily know if that translates business-wise, but I do think there's a real difference male versus female in that regard. That's so interesting. And I think even yeah, coming back to like that competitive piece for me, like I don't think I'm competitive until like I run a race. And I've only realized this in like because I've like I don't run races. I've done two half marathons, like I'm being you're a time and one. You're a superwoman. Um, but which I did with you, I was like dying by the end of the you're like we can slow down. I'm like, I literally was. I was like this but I I but yeah, and I I didn't realize like I go into that and I'm like, I just want to finish it. And then I'm like, the minute I start running, I'm like, I want to win. I'm not gonna win, but like I want to beat my time, I want to run past that person. Like, I don't realize it, but yeah, I think somewhere along the way I've had a maybe more difficult relationship with what competitive is seen as or means. It would be, um I imagine there'd be a different layer to it as well, because you, you know, you've your own business. It's not I feel like being in a team and are in, I mean, yeah, you're not exposed to as much healthy competition. It's like your competitors are in industry. Yeah, exactly. I mean, less so now I'm in my role. But yeah, like as a team, yeah, you're always there is, I mean, it's like doing you know, marketing days, everyone's competing with each other. So there's it is that healthy, like it's encouraged, right? Yeah, I want everyone to be competitive, but in a not to the detriment to of other people, which I'm very, very we're very lucky and very proud of having such an I mean you've met them all, but our team at Lotus are honestly incredible with such a good, good bunch of people, and they're all competitive but supportive of each other as well. But yeah, I wonder if that comes into it for you, right? Maybe it would start to self-analyse me. If we start doing lots of uh competitive things together on one note. Um, and so just moving into more of like spoken about like showing up in work, and you know, I know over the last, you know, you've had a big personal year as well. You got married, um, you're obviously still not quite. Um you know, you've got a big family back in Ireland, which I know you're very close to and like speak to a lot, you've got pets, um, you've got a really healthy and busy friendship, social life. You're a very like kind and nurturing person. So, like, how do you balance like the the just the have like the balance? How do you balance like being present at home and with family with such a big job and such a big career? Yeah, I mean, I definitely don't know the answer to that. I think, yeah, as you said, I have I don't have kids, but I have uh a Tony, which is our rescue cat, a Calou, which is a giant, stubborn great dane, and I have a Nick, which is my husband, my wonderful supportive husband. Um uh but honestly, it's something I think I have struggled with since the beginning of recruitment. Um, I'm very extroverted, obviously, but I think I go from being entirely boundaryless to so boundary that nobody can get in, kind of thing. Like I think I can flip-flop between the two and um almost get myself into if I am really stressed and I've had a really busy week, sometimes I'm like, okay, I just need a weekend where I don't see people. But actually the thing that fills my cup is yeah, seeing people and connection. And you know, at the start of the year, one of my uh uh New Year's resolutions was to speak to one of my family members at least once a week because I got into a habit of being like, I know with the time difference, it makes it hard, but being like, oh, I just too tired, I don't know how I'm gonna feel, I don't want to commit to a call or whatever. But then that just meant I wasn't speaking to any of them, and then I felt really homesick and really lonely, and it just perpetuated that whole thing. So I've really found the balance um with that as well, and also just making sure that when I'm feeling that way, I spend time with you or Sinead or you know, people that I've known and know me really well and I've known for a really long time that don't involve any effort. Not that other friends do, but it's just like I don't need to show up in a certain way. I think that feeds into as well with ADHD being like, what version of myself do I need to be for this person? Um asking. Yeah. So I think it's a lot of that and with work, obviously, you kind of know the dynamics of who you need to be and how you need to show up. And so then when it comes to personal life, sometimes it can be a bit trickier. But I'm really lucky. I have um, you know, Nick's family over here. My in-laws, they're amazing, and I've got really good friends, and so um, I'm really lucky in that regard, but balancing it, I think I go through times of being really good, um, and then times where maybe I'm more stressed. But for me, it's about also setting myself up. We'll say making sure I have my morning routine. And I feel like you and I are really similar in that regard. You know, I get up at five and I walk the dog, and that's our sometimes it can be really relaxing, sometimes it's not, depending on how well behaved he is or he isn't. Um, and just having time for myself and trying to exercise, but also not being so firmly set on it that I'm like, oh my god, I'm not going to have a good day if I don't do that thing. Yeah, like having to have some flex around what you need. Again, it's that unlearning. I feel like I've come a long way with that of like this needs to look like this for me to not be stressed, usually with doing an exercise class. Um versus allowing myself to actually take the time to just And that's so how I mean I still really struggle with that because I'm like, my morning didn't go exactly to plan, and now my whole day is going to be blown out. Someone um, which has always been really helpful for me, and I don't know where I saw it. It was probably a post or something, but someone was like, you know, especially it was about early motherhood, right? And it was like, you know, just the days that you instantly wake up and you just know it's just chaos, whatever. But it was like actually breaking your day into like four quarters, in that if the first quarter doesn't go to plan, it doesn't mean that the whole day is off. You've got like three more quarters, right? So you get this chance to reset how you feel about the day, what you want to do. Like, I mean, you can do it in every moment, but it was almost like it was such a nice way of looking at it because it was kind of like, okay, just because if my morning goes to shit, you know, it doesn't mean that, you know, then then the rest of the day has to like we get we get to choose basically all day how we feel and what we need in each moment, and that will look different every single day. But I really like that as just like a yeah, the way that the day starts doesn't mean it has to be the way that the day ends, and you have you have the choice, I guess, of how you kind of move through your day and find a bit more grace and compassion for yourself. But I feel like you're so strong on that, like you're so good at that. And I know that hasn't been a and and not, you know, as you said, it hasn't been an always thing, but I think it makes such a difference um to actually go no, like what do I need in this moment? Yeah, as opposed to like what should I need? Like, what did I what did I need yesterday in this moment, you know? Exactly. And I think uh Hoffman doing the Hoffman process really helped me with that as well. Of like, um, and it ties back to me getting validation from external sources, how I deal with having a stressful day is so different now compared to, you know, when I started recruitment, however, many years ago, I would, as I said, you know, the first couple of years I'd come home and and cry at Nick and be like, this was really hard, and da-da-da-da. And it was amazing. Don't know if I would have had as much patience, to be honest. But um, what I really try to do now is actually sit with that. And I will catch myself instead of going, you know, and also don't get me wrong, it's important to talk through things, but instead of going, oh, this is really hard, like I had a stressful day a while ago and it came in. He's like, Are you okay? And I was like, you know what? I actually don't want to talk about it. He's like, Are you sure? I was like, Yeah, you know what? I'm just gonna journal, gonna sit with it for a little bit, and then I'm gonna just let that be and move forward. And journaling and meditation is really helpful as well, and exercise, not excessive exercise, you know, a good amount of it as well. Um movement, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I have a walking pad and a standing desk, so I do like 20,000 steps a day. So, you know, plenty of movement. What did I just say about AD? Not too much exercise, not too much exercises, just cannot sit still. Exactly. Exactly when you said about breaking up your day into like porters. I was like, oh, that admin doesn't sound like it's for me. Yeah, the numbers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and and I love, and and yeah, and it's that ability to sit with self, which I think is is massive and so hard for a lot of us. What do you think that women in recruitment quietly carry? You know, and like again, like this isn't like uh woman versus men, you know, but like there is a difference. Yeah, yeah. Literally physical. Um, but yeah, what do you what do you think they quietly carry that that maybe we don't even talk about enough? Or that they we just the assumption is that we just carry it and I think um sounds like a really big statement, but like being taken seriously. Um and I think of uh an example of um a couple of years ago I when I was still running a temp desk, um I went on a meeting with a a general manager of an international, very large, very well-known organization. Um, and he'd organize a meeting um and he asked me a question and I throughout the meeting he'd be kind of looking at his watch, and you know, not clearly I was like, he it's because I'm genuinely I'm female and I'm a certain age, like he's not taking me seriously at all. And uh he asked me a question and I just started answering it. Um and he looked at his watch and he just said, I'm gonna stop you there. Who set this meeting up? It's only in for half an hour, we're gonna need more time. I was like, You did, but I guaranteed I went back to the office and I taught one of the guys I work with, and he was like, I would have got up and left. But I guarantee if it had been him in that meeting, it would have been different. And again, not all men, and like general statement, but there are have been a lot of times in my career where I thought I wouldn't be asked that question if I was a man or wouldn't be challenged. And so I think and I think things are changing. Um but yeah, that's I guess the thing that brings to mind. Yeah, it's I yeah, and I take it again. It's I really saw this when I had like a male business partner. Because before that, like we were so lucky with um, you know, obviously working in the in business support and fairly female dominated. Um, and with Lotus people, like it naturally was more female dominated. Um and, you know, and then working for myself. So you only kind of know how people, and I definitely, definitely found that with with meeting clients, but you only kind of know the environment that you're in, right? And how people are responding to you. And there were a couple of occasions um that situations were handled in a way with me completely differently. I actually think I remember one of them in particular. To to how my business partner was spoken to, and I just remember being like the issue that had happened wasn't my fault. Yet the way I was spoken to was I was the punching bag. Yeah. It was like you're the easier target for me to come at. And it was actually the person's fault. What had happened was very much their fault, but I was kind of the first person they came to in the punching bag, and then it was almost like my male business partner kind of came in and like it was like, okay, well, let's placate, you know, let's bring down, you know, it was almost like suddenly this person's energy, um, stress level and whole language, whole demeanor shifted. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. That's super interesting. And, you know, runoffs like that happen, right? But it happened a number of times where I was like, hmm, not sure that that would have been said if it if it wasn't me, you know. Um, and I hate to make generalization generalizations like that, you know, because we were invested in by um, you know, a male-owned business. And the guys were absolutely incredible and um advocated for us and would have our backs with absolutely every we couldn't have asked for better business partners and be just being very, very clear, this business partner that I'm talking about is not those guys, but we couldn't have asked for better. So I was only ever surrounded by men who really celebrate women, and it was just an interesting dynamic watching how someone would respond to me versus someone else when I was at the same level as them. Yeah, I'm glad you said that as well, because I was literally gonna say, like the guys um at Sustain, like they, I feel so lucky to have worked with a team of guys who absolutely there, I didn't see any of that from them, and they're so respectful and like friends for life and just an amazing bunch of people. Um, but even I mean, this isn't business, but like if Nick and I go out for a drink, like I drink beer, I've got uh they always put the beer in front of him. Yeah, literally. He gets a cocktail or a wine, and it's always like they always assume it's him. And I mean, I don't care, but I'm like, it's just so interesting that it's just that ingrained like confirmation biases and stuff. Oh, yeah, it does really irk me when um like the bill is put in front of Nick. Yeah, I'm like, guys, I'm the one to mommy. Yeah, also we're not married to the same person, we're both just married to the big one. This isn't some weird community setup. Um yeah. Um, but yeah, no, even things like that, they still bother me. Yeah, still bother me. It's like, well, why? Why not just ask me who wants the building? Yeah. Um, okay, and just kind of a last couple of questions for you because obviously we spend our lives talking, so I'll have to cut us at some point. Um, what advice would you give to our audience now to support them with navigating career life in recruitment from the seat that you sit in now? I would just encourage them to like lean on your network. Um, you know, I am so lucky to have had amazing mentors who are now lifelong friends, um but genuinely, you know, coming to Australia as well. And we so see it so much in recruitment, right naturally. It's like you lean on your network, and I think it sounds like a really American thing to say, but I have people reach out to me all the time. It's like friends of friends, or da-da-da. Like I had someone reach out and they were like, My friend's radiologists and they're really hating their job. Do you could you help them or do you know of anyone? And I'm so happy to put people in touch with other people. So, like lean on your network and be vulnerable as well. I think it's so hard. And I was saying this to you before we started the podcast. I was like, sometimes I find it hard to go between the like this is work and this is me, like, how much of myself am I allowed to be present in in the two, like when the two worlds combine? And so I think just allowing yourself to be vul vulnerable, and especially if you're in a high pressure job, if things are tough, like lean on people, like lean on your team, or you know, me and my fellow directors, as I said, like we are such a We trust each other implicitly, we back each other, we really support each other. We disagree, which I heard recently, if you have three uh three directors or or uh you know leaders that agree on the same thing, you only need one. So you know, you you don't want to all be in agreement all the time. But yeah, I guess just just start leaning on your network and and asking for help if you need it, which can be hard. And giving yourself permission, I think, to do that, you know, being like it's not a weakness asking for help. Asking for help is actually gonna help you grow. Yeah, it allows other people to support you, it allows you to be open and real. But I think so many women still really struggle with it being perceived as a weakness. And so, you know, especially in a work environment, it's like we'll just pack it away and save it, save it for the person who we come home to, you know. Whereas that doesn't kind of allow you to grow or create change for yourself either. Yeah. And one of the um just another point on that one of my biggest fears and maybe hang ups when I first started in recruitment was I out of every in this room, I know the least. Like I don't know everything and being so afraid of that. And obviously I didn't, like, you know, I just started in recruitment. That's fine. Like again, clients have been so generous over the years with sharing, going, okay, you don't know that I'm I'm happy to help you. And like, you know, yeah, if you're not sure of something or whatever, but um it is okay to not know everything because you will not in recruitment, you absolutely will not. You're always learning, we're dealing with people, things change all the time, and so it's okay to not know everything and to ask questions. I still get stumped by stuff now. Sometimes people ask me stuff and I'm like, What should I ask? About the cognition. I asked someone else that this morning, they were like, Oh, that's a really good question. About uh now that AI is being rolled out, what are people going to do with that psycho? Oh, yeah, I was like, Whoa, show hit me with this question. I was like, Oh yeah, my brain can't actually handle that. It's like, yeah, once all the time is taken away and you don't have that circuit breaker to do the admin, your cognitive load is gonna be overloaded, and then what do you do? So even more overloaded than it already is. Anyone have an answer? No, yeah. Post your answers on the uh comment section of this podcast because we we don't know. Um, and my last question for you, Shao. Um, you've had an absolute fucking day of it. What's like your ultimate self-care thing? Like don't you don't have to do it all the time, but it's just like the dream self-care. What's it gonna be? The reason I laugh is because oh my god. Okay, so picture this. It's six o'clock, it's winter. I'm in bed wearing my bonnet with my dog and my cat, knitting a blanket for them. I've seen it. Watching this terrible reality TV. Um, and that's it. And maybe, or maybe my Kindle's on a stand and I'm reading it while I'm knitting. Oh, sounds epic. Yeah, that's it. Sounds epic. You got like chocolate in there or like no, maybe sometimes I'll have a white claw or a tea can. That's even better. The white claw with that setup is like the most epic image. There you go, guys. That's what we're leaving you with today. There you go. What a beautiful visual. I can send a photo if anyone wants to see it, which I'd be great. Um, thank you so much. Um, obviously, for us, this is just like how we spend our lives. Um, but um, I know it's a lot to share this stuff, and you've had such an incredible career and such an incredible journey, and you've done so much personal work, and anyone listening to this would take so much away from it, and you're so generous with your time to share and be vulnerable. So thank you so, so much. Thank you for coming. Um, and I hope you guys all enjoyed. We'll see you next time. Thank you so much for tuning into this episode. I really hope you enjoyed it and have taken something away from it. Click follow to receive new episodes as they're released. And if you know someone else in recruitment who needs to hear this episode, please, please send it their way. Lastly, leaving a review is so appreciated and helps others find the podcast. I really look forward to seeing you next time.