Leading a global organisation and doing it your way- Christine Wright- ex Hays MD

In this episode, I sit down with the incredible Christine Wright, whose 30+ year career in recruitment has taken her across four continents, into boardrooms around the world, and through some of the industry's biggest transformations. 

But beyond the impressive titles and achievements is a deeply grounded, thoughtful leader who shares what it really takes to build a meaningful career in recruitment. The resilience to keep going, the courage to back yourself, and the importance of never losing sight of the people at the heart of what we do.

Together, we talk about ambition, leadership, loneliness, imposter syndrome, and why success often looks different in different seasons of life. 

Christine opens up about moving to Japan alone to lead a business, the lessons she's learned as a female leader, and why hard work, authenticity and having the right support around you matter more than anything else. 

This is a conversation full of wisdom, honesty and warmth- one that will leave you feeling inspired to trust your instincts, embrace change and define success on your own terms.

Christine and I connected 6 months ago, and I feel deeply honoured that she decided to take the time to record this episode. She is a legend of our industry and has so much value and wisdom to share!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to Women Who Recruit. I'm your host, Laura, founder of Hope's Consult, a training and advisory business for recruitment agencies in Australia. I've spent my entire career in recruitment, and I'm just as passionate about our industry today as I was nearly 20 years ago. The purpose of this podcast is to get to know and celebrate the incredible women who dedicate their careers to our industry. This isn't just about the highlight reels or the big runs to the top, although we will definitely touch on that. We'll be talking about what it actually looks like career choices, leadership challenges, ambition, doubt, burnout, and the constant juggle of work, family, and everything in between. If you work in recruitment and you want to be inspired by the stories of women in our industry, then this podcast is definitely for you. Welcome to Women Who Recruit. I am so glad you are here. Hi everyone. Welcome to this week's episode. Thank you so much for tuning in. I am here with the incredible Christine Wright. Thank you so, so much for joining me. I'm so excited about this chat. Christine and I connected recently and we caught up a couple of times. Um, and I feel very honored that she is giving her time to chat to me and to chat to us on this week's episode. So thank you. As always, I'm just going to start with your bio, just to give people context as to who you are, um what you're about, and where you've been. So, Christine first landed in Australia in 1998 via a work transfer and despite her 13 year stint overseas, she considers Australia her second home. However, she's still an England supporter in sport, especially for rugby. Travel is still a passion, and even though she's traveled to or lived in five out of the seven continents in the world, she still thinks there's a whole lot more of the world to see and experience. Christine has over 31 years experience in the recruitment industry working at board and executive level. She's run medium and large-scale recruitment businesses across four continents, including Australia, UK, US, Japan, and across Asia. She's now a principal with the Satori Partnership, which is a group of talent industry experts providing advisory services back to the recruitment industry and corporate talent functions. How does it feel when people read out your binary? Is that me? I sound really good. I sound kind of credible. Yeah. I feel like everyone finds it kind of like, I don't know, it's tough listening to someone read about you, right? Out loud whilst you're sat there.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Yeah. Yeah, we all like to be more modest than that.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

So yeah, yeah. And I feel like even for me, like I'm coming up to my second decade in recruitment, right? Which just feels so mad to think that my whole career has been in this industry. But that's the same for you, right? Pretty much your whole career. So where did you just for kind of backstory for people? Because you've had this incredible, impressive career, which has afforded you, like you said, a lot of travel. Um, you've been able to, you know, sit, sit in boardrooms and and grow businesses past it, you know, initial expectations. Like, where did it all start for you? Like back at the start of your recruitment career. Like, is this what you thought it would look like?

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Well, I didn't choose recruitment, even. Um, as most people say, um, I graduated from university. Um, I realized that maybe after getting a degree, it wasn't the best thing to continue to work behind bars. Yeah. Um, and um I went and answered an advert to find out what recruitment Sartan does. So I changed in the back of my dad's car into a suit out of my genreist uniform. Anyone knows that store from the UK, um, where I was working for for Christmas, and I went along to the interview and I got the job and started two weeks later. And I'll be honest, at that time I was just glad someone gave me a job. Yeah, um, as you are when you're a graduate. And um I think very quickly I realised that I'd landed on my feet. Um, in the fact that first of all, I joined Hayes and and they had probably still have the best training in the industry. Yeah. I'm not gonna start on a Hayes. They do, but they do, they also had really clear career paths and they also um judge people by what they did. So it was a meritocracy. So it didn't matter who you were, if you did well, you got ahead. And then the other thing I realized that someone was paying me to talk to people, and I couldn't quite believe that when I made my first placement, that they were paying me to do this. And I love talking to people. I'm an extrovert, not in the type that I don't particularly like getting up on the stage, but um I get my energy from people, so it was like the perfect job for me. And I remember sitting around with my my friends and them all sort of complaining about their first jobs and me sitting there quietly thinking, but I love my job. That's I love my job. So I enjoyed it from the beginning. I enjoyed it from the beginning, and you know what? I'm I'm still really, really close friends with a lot of people that I started with that I met on my first day in my first training course. So, you know, it's it's it's been a massive part of my life. Yeah, huge both in and out of work.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

And like, because I think, you know, most of us say, you know, the first kind of couple of years are are the hardest, right? And that's when a lot of people leave our industry and they they don't think they're cut out for it. But it sounds like you kind of had this experience of just going, like, oh, this is exactly what I'm meant to be doing.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Like Yeah, it I I loved it. Um look, I I knew deep down that I was always quite target driven. So, like my first job in a shoe shop when I was 14. And you used to get um, you used to have to sell the extras like the shoe polish and the shoelace. This is so ridiculous. Anyway, so we had a a board out the back where everyone would write up if they'd sold extras that day, or fancers as they were called, don't know why. Anyway, so I used to love having the most sold. So that was even at 14. So obviously I was pretty competitive, right? So um, so it played to that, but I really just I enjoyed the social aspect of it. I worked with such great people, and and that in that sense, yeah, I landed on my big style because I work with great people. I know not all people have that experience. I I felt belonging to the company that I work for, and it gave me the opportunity to progress. I mean, you know, after my first three months, I said, I want to be a senior consultant.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Did you really?

SPEAKER_00 6:12

And this director probably looked at me thinking, who is this little squirt? And he said, You've got a bill X amount in three months. And I went, okay. So I did. And you just did it. And I did it. So I, you know, I I just really enjoyed it, but I also enjoyed the other side of it. I mean, I I will always remember my first placement.

unknown 6:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Uh Marion Little, part-time bookkeeper, Hemel Hempster Trading Estate. You can remember the whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

Yeah, and um sorry, good.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

But but that's the one of your defining moments, you know, your first placement. And people aren't a commodity. I I just really enjoyed it. In fact, I've you know, I I don't know Marion anymore, unfortunately. But you know, I still have I don't know, maybe in Himmel Hempster still, but I still have friends from outside of work now that were my clients or candidates.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

So I think that's a really beautiful part of it, isn't it? And like, you know, that first placement, the that feeling of like, oh, I can actually do this, like I can do this from start to finish, like so validating and so proud. And like also that feeling of like, oh my god, like I've just secured someone a job, like I've supported someone in their career. Like, how amazing is that? You know, that for me, that that feeling never went away. And I think, yeah, then the the relationships you build, because not just internally with your team, it's like you make you, you know, I've got clients now that I'm still in touch with that I started recruiting for 15, 16 years ago, you know. And there's that real trust in the relationship, yeah, you know, because you're dealing with people and there has to be. So you get to develop this whole community.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

And and then it goes beyond that because as a I I always say that as a recruiter, you're really basically a nosy person. Yeah. Because you get to go and talk to companies and lots and lots of different companies, and you get to find ask all the questions that you need to know that will be relevant to attract a candidate to that company, and you will learn things about um companies that you didn't know. You get you get the inside edge. So you might see some big global multinational company that has a big brand name that obviously have got it right, and you get in there and you find out they haven't got a career path. And it's like, wow, okay. So um, you know, I I I just find it fascinating. Yeah. I find it fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

I think I love that bit of it as well. Like I got to learn about business without having to be academic, you know, how businesses work, different industries. I love the fact that I could recruit across different, yeah, like multiple industry sectors, because it's like, oh, I started to understand how like a nonprofit functions and how a finance house functions and what a creative agency does, and you know what turns the cogs on the wheels. And I loved that part of it. Like I think I was I've always been very curious about learning how things practically work. And so that element for me was always like, oh, this is so this it's so varied, it's so interesting.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

You know, and you have to understand how what is entail in a job.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

Okay, you can't, you don't have to be able to do the job yourself, but you have to understand the job itself. Yeah, and there's nothing more terrifying than a client saying, So tell me what you think this job entails when you've never done the job yourself, which is why, to be honest, I've always been a fan of the specialist model because it means you can get deep into it. But you know, by the time I've I finished recruiting, um, I was doing senior finance roles.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

But I'm not a trained accountant, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I knew enough about it by then um to be able to understand what worked and what didn't.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Yeah, totally. You're in it, right? You're in the world of it. And, you know, I and we'll talk about this, we'll talk about this more. You've had this, you know, fantastically successful career through the industry, but has there ever been a moment where you're like, you know what, fuck this? Like genuinely thought about walking away from it. Not just like, you know, the end of the week, fuck this, like a moment where you've kind of ever questioned your place in it or I've never questioned my place in the industry. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

Um I I love what we do, and I I do, and and you know, there's a lot of company taglines out there about changing lives and that sort of thing, but that is actually what happens, and you can help someone better their life. And and I think the only danger of the art industry is that sometimes people forget about that bit and they start treating every placement as a number, and they've got to remember that there's someone at the other end of that that's gonna, you know, resigning from a job is hard. Um, starting a new job is hard. Um, the the effect of that on yourself, but also on the people around you is hard. So I think we've got to always remember that. So, no, I I haven't fallen out of love with the industry. I think what we do is really important, um, and you know, I think the human element is just the extra special part of it. Um, but I've moved jobs, so um, you know, I've more because I feel like I've I've done what I set out to achieve um in most cases. Um I've actually only ever worked for two companies before now I'm self-employed. Um, but I've only ever worked for two companies. But for instance, in in in Hayes, where I was for 28 years, um you could argue I had 13 different roles. Yeah. And I worked across four continents. So, you know, if um I've worked in the big corporate motherships and I've also worked in businesses that were acquisitions and I was coming in after a founder. Um, so I had a real variety, and that's what kept me there. Um, so no, I haven't I haven't left because I've fallen out with something. It's just been time to move on. It's been time to move on.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, and that's pretty incredible, you know, because it's as we know, it's not even.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

I've had my days. I've had my days where you're going, I can't believe this. Why am I why am I doing that? Um, but it doesn't tend to last very long. I mean, I am naturally an optimist, so I'll try and see the good in things. Um, and if something bad happens, a bit like the days when you're on a desk, right? And you didn't want to pick up the phone again because you know it's gonna be another person turning a job down or whatever. And and in those times I used to just I'd go and interview a candle or go and meet a client or get on the phone and talk to someone else because I just knew that there was something going on that day, and I just didn't want to try and close anything, right? So it wasn't gonna work. Um, so yeah, there are those days, but on the whole you roll with it.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

Yeah, yeah, it's funny that, isn't it? That was always some really good advice that I had been given. It's like if I was having a real knockback day, just go and speak to a client that loves you. Like go pick up the phone to a candidate you've placed that loves their job. Like just give yourself a little reminder that you're good at what you do, yes, and that there's a reason that you do what you do, you know. Because I don't really think there's been any point either in my career where I've gone, I don't want to be involved in the recruitment industry anymore, ever, really. Yeah. Which is funny to think about, you know, because I need a lot of variation. It's funny that it's always been variation within recruitment, yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

And and I always um like for for me now in this position of um being self-employed, that's the next sort of chapter. Um yes, I will and have in the past, through executive coaching, worked with other industries, but you know, this is this is my wheelhouse. Um and this is where I have the passion still. So as long as you still have the passion, why wouldn't you continue to work in it with in it just in a slightly different way?

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Yeah, totally. Just adapt. What's been like the hardest season of your career?

SPEAKER_00 13:29

I would say the move to Asia, in particular to Japan. So I moved up there, I was in my sort of mid to late 30s. I was single, so I moved to a foreign country. I had been up for two days to have a look around beforehand. That's it. Yeah, that's great. Um, so I moved to a foreign country where English isn't the first language.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

Yeah, an entirely different culture.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

A totally different culture. I was going in to take over from a founder of a business that the company had acquired.

SPEAKER_03 13:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

I will say that I had the best support network ever from Australia, from my colleagues in Australia, from my boss, from my peers. You know, they made sure that I was fine. But as a social animal who's used to having a lot of friends around them, um, to move somewhere not knowing a single person. And then the only people that you get to meet at first are the people that work for you, and you're the new boss, and you come from the big bad beast that's acquired the company. It it was pretty rough. Yeah. Um, now all the people in the business were absolutely lovely. Most of them were lovely. There were probably a few that weren't, I'll be blunt. Um, but most of them were lovely, but it was a massive period of change for them. And also it's it's towards the end of the GFC as well. Yeah, right. Okay. So everyone had been strung out. They're obviously all um tired, a bit like everyone is at the moment. But um, so so going into that, but also not having the usual support network apart from people on the other end of the phone. Um, that was that was pretty tough. Um but I never thought about giving up or anything like that. Um, you pull on your resilience at that point. Also, I'm quite stubborn. So um I'm making this work. I'm making this work. And and look, honestly, that was a a massively defining moment in my career. Taking that job, taking the leap of faith that I could go and run a business away from the usual support networks, um, take it over in a fairly difficult market, as well as also a bunch of unknowns. Because to then I'd always worked with people I'd known. Um but it was it was defining, and honestly, it launched me into the Asia role. So um, so two years later I moved into running all of Asia. And um, so it was a really, really good experience. Didn't didn't appreciate the earthquake that came in it, but um, defining it.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

And why, you know, how did that look for you like in you know, you'd obviously be in the day being in in work mode, right? And then walking out the office at whatever time, what did you do to like build your network? Were you just kind of going back and sitting your accommodation being like, oh my god, like did you just get out there and like start seeing, you know, it's it was a mixture, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

It was a real mixture. Um I at first, because there was so much to take on board as well, I kind of very much treated like I'm here for my job.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

Okay, so you know, long hours, some working weekends, that sort of thing. Because I had a huge amount of information to get in my head to be able to effectively run that business. Um, I wouldn't necessarily that's say that's the right way to do it, but it is. Um, and then I had a couple of people introduced to me through people elsewhere in the world. Um, so that was that was good. Um, as another person that had just moved to Japan from the UK, actually. So um I had people to go out and do things with, and I spent a lot of time walking. I'll be honest, it's because I didn't know how the trains worked, didn't know how the buses worked, um, I didn't know any Japanese, so I didn't think I could direct a taxi. So I just walked everywhere. I mean, it's great for fitness. Um, and I kind of set my every weekend I had to go to a new place.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

Um, so but it was it was quite lonely for someone that I I'm not the person that goes, I want to go traveling on my own.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

I like going and experiencing it with people and having memories with people. So um that was quite hard. But I I'll I'll be blunt, you know, I've I've got a huge support network in my friend group, most friends I've had in my life since I was at school or or you know, even 30 years ago. So um I relied on them, um, my family um back in the UK, and um, and I said, and work colleagues who are friends. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So um that was fine. And then over time I worked out uh I'll be blunt, who were my people and who weren't my people in the business. And then, you know, today I have really close friends who have people that used to work for me there. So you you get through it. And and look, I mean, Japan's an exciting place. I mean, how many people are going to Japan at the moment? Every second person seems to be. I know, yeah. And it's a wonder, it's an amazing place. Um it is so foreign. I mean, I'm actually glad I went somewhere that was considered a bit more difficult.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Because I think it means that if someone said go and live in this difficult place, I'd be like, fine. Done it once, you know, done it once, done it again, I can do it again. So, and I and I I lived in China as well. Once I met my now husband, um, I lived in Shanghai for three years. Yeah, right. As well. So Japan and China, um, not necessarily soft landings into Asia, but um, especially you went to Australia. Why would you want to make it too easy? Why would you want to make it too easy? So, yeah, it wasn't it wasn't like I was just you know lying on the sofa drowning myself in a bottle of wine, lonely and crying and and Bridget Jones style or anything like that. Um, but I got out there and I did things. But and and I did have frequent trips um to see people either in the UK or Japan. Yeah, you know, sometimes you just need that.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually see people in real life. And how is your, you know, because your career just grew and grew, right? And and especially, and I'd love to kind of hear your thoughts on the last few years, especially with making the decision to to kind of go out on your own and what that like like how has your relationship with ambition changed over that time? Because you were obviously extremely driven, like you said, from the age of 14, like you know, had that spirit of competitiveness. Like, did you at any point in your life do did you notice a shift with that? Has it always been the case?

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Yes, there has been a shift, I think. Um, but there's been a few shifts. So when I was consultant and um building my career to management, and you know, before then it was all about I I want to, you know, I want to win, right? And um, I remember moving to Australia and being up against some of the tried and tested competitors of uh Morgan and Banks and Michael Page and and just wanting to beat them, like I'll be honest. And if I did beat them, I did a you know, happy dance basically. So um my my ambition was to um make a lot of placements to beat the competition, um, all that sort of thing. Those are in the days when we were all taught to snarl at each other as well. Yeah, and be nice to each other. Um, so that was a different type of ambition. Once I transitioned into management, and I say management, not leadership, in management, I still wanted my team to be the best. I still build myself, I wanted to still lead by example, lead from the front, all those sort of cliched words. But um, I wanted to show them that you could manage and you could also be a high performer as well. And then and then as I moved into away from being on a desk and billing, then it it honestly became my ambition was for the people that work for me. So, you know, like I really enjoy seeing people develop. Um, whether it be they're a consultant that's just joined the industry um all the way through to a leader that's new to running a big team, or um, you know, I like ambitious people. I I don't like people that think, oh, I've done enough. You know, um, so my ambition changed. I wanted to do the right thing for people, I wanted to do the right thing for the business. Um, yes, I get rewarded, but that's a byproduct of it. I'm not saying that I do it for love, um, but that's a byproduct of it. But it it shifted at that point to, you know, I've always said if I could sit at a board table and have all those people around me, I know I've done a good job. Right. So that's where it should be. Um, and then as you, you know, as you get older, to put it bluntly, you know, I'm in my oh I hate to say this, my mid-50s now, 55 this year. And I can't, I don't understand how that's happened even, to be honest, right? But it has. Um, but now I think in my phase of life, it's it's I've I've looked back at my career and what have I really enjoyed? And that's how I've ended up doing what I'm doing now. What have I really enjoyed? What gives me a buzz still? And it's um I still would love running businesses. I'm not counting that out as something in the future. But probably one of the jobs that I enjoyed the most in the last few years was my um role in America, where I I went in and I was a bit of a fixer and I pivoted to things and um and it was like I've got a problem here, okay, I'll go and put eyes on that and sort it out. And because of my experience, I can do things quicker. Um, so I really enjoyed that, and that's what led me to thinking about this type of career that I'm doing now. Yeah, because also my priorities have shifted and my ambitions have shifted. In I do want to have a bit more time outside of work. I do want to feel not feel guilty if I get up early and go for a walk instead of going to the office early.

SPEAKER_03 22:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Um, and that's that's quite a hard thing to get over when you've been programmed for 31 years to be the first to show up, the last to leave, um, all that side of things, right? So, but but I wanted to get away from that because I actually, as much as I think there's a time and a place for it in your career, it's not healthy to do it for all your career. Um, plus, I do think there's an element of you need to show people something they can aspire to get to. I don't mean I mean, I'll give you really, I'm tangenting a bit here, but I'll give you a big example. So if someone comes to me and says, I want to bill a million dollars, okay, but I want to work nine till four thirty, and um I don't want to do much business development, I say fine, enjoy your three, four hundred K if you're lucky, that you're gonna bill. Because you don't get somewhere, like you have to be extraordinary and you have to work really hard. And if people say, How did you get to where you are? I worked hard. Sorry, there's no two ways around it. There's no luck unless you you've got some magic wand above you, you have to work hard, you have to be resilient, you have to get on with it. And um, and that's why I can now say, Well, I want to get up and go for a walk instead of going to an office for 7:30 in the morning. Um, and and also try and get past the guilt of doing that. Yeah, or saying, Oh, you know, I always remember dentists' appointments would be lunch times and you'd feel insanely guilty that you're going to the dentist. Well, I won't eat today then. So even now, even though now I'm my own boss, I'm uh it's ridiculous. I went to the dentist this week and I went at lunchtime. Oh, you and when they were 10 minutes late letting me get seeing me, panicked. I was tapping my fingers going, come on, come on, come on. And I thought, what have I got to get back for? So, you know, that programming takes a long time to do that.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

I can imagine. Because I, you know, I've been running my own business for eight years and I still catch those little moments of stuff like that of being like, yeah, you know, having to justify why I might be doing something on a weekday. Yes. Especially since I've had Emma because there's this double justification of like what if it's not guilt? Yeah, if it's not Emma related, you know, tasks or work. Like, you know, and my husband's off work at the moment. It's really funny because a couple of times have been like, Do you want to go and grab a quick lunch? And I'm like, I can't, I'm busy. He's like, You're also your own boss. And I'm like, Yeah, but doesn't, you know, there is obviously a fine balance with having to get stuff done. But I feel yeah, I went to the I went to the dentist a couple of weeks ago as well, and I found myself being on the clock.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

But it's it's so hard to get out of that when you are a self-disciplined person who then has also been rewarded, I think, yes, for that behavior, right? Because you start to also associate like the level of work you've been in, obviously, and that our industry is that.

SPEAKER_03 25:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

And something I think would be really interesting for anyone listening to hear from you on, because a lot of the conversations I have, especially with women, is like they get to that point in their career where they want to step into leadership and management, but they really struggle with the identity shift of not being able to prove their worth on their desk anymore. Um, how you know, for you kind of because you said even as a manager, you know, you still kept a desk and you wanted to be amongst it. How was that shift into like that true leadership where it was like you're not on the tools anymore?

SPEAKER_00 25:47

Hard. Yeah. Hard at first it's really hard. And I think, you know, I found myself even a year ago justifying my existence by saying I used to be able to build this much in a month. I it's ridiculous. Um, you have value. It would be like, do they think I got here without doing that or without being successful? Um, but anyway, you do. But I I found that shift really hard until I shifted my mindset to being proud of what my team achieved. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and then that leads into that ambition to see others do well, which has then taken me through to where I am now. Yeah, because I want to see others do well. If they can achieve something by spending an hour a week with me or or um using our using an advisory service, so to speak, if they can they they can run quicker because of that, then I feel I've got I've achieved something. So that's that's kind of come full circle there. But you you you literally just have to tell yourself to look for the um pingers of success from other things, and it could be that you've got someone who used to be afraid of BD and now they're a BD monster, you know. It could be that you've um helped someone get a placement over the line and the next time they do it themselves. So you you've got to change it's completely changed mindset. And you know, a lot of you know, when I was um coming up through the ranks, I haven't gone, oh, well they're a leader, they just sit behind their spreadsheets. Um and so I've always said I never want to be one of those leaders. So it's about the connection with the people that work for you, no matter what role you're in.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

And I think a lot of people have had, you know, that that leader, haven't they, where they've gone, like I don't really know what they're doing. And so carry in the back of our heads like people don't think I'm doing stuff.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

If you're a leader, you're making decisions that affect the people in the business, right? And how can you know what the people in the business need or are missing, or maybe they're not performing, right? So why? Or they're not even right for the industry. But how do you know that if you don't communicate with people? You don't do your you don't do the manager's job for them, but you make sure that you're connected enough to the business because otherwise it's really boring. Like you sit in a room, look at a few spreadsheets, go to a leader's uh a board meeting, talk about pie in the sky TV as opposed to. Talk about strategy. I mean, you've got to find the balance between living in the day and looking to the future, which is something that in recruitment we're terrible at because we're really good at just living in the moment because it's we're trained, it's all about whether we can get that placement over the line and get them in the job on Monday. Um, but you do have to have a bit more foresight to the future as well once you get more senior.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

Yeah, definitely. And I think even as consultants nowadays, like if you want to weather what the you know the ongoing chaos of the market, you've got to be thinking about, you know, what your desks will look like in the next three, six, twelve months.

SPEAKER_00 28:28

I think that we are in the industry we can be quite insular. Um and so you don't you talk to your clients and your candidates all the time. So you should know what's going on. But once you get back in the office, it's all about what we are doing here and what this business is doing and all that sort of thing. And I think um if I looked at when I started, I'd have probably tried to create more of that commercial awareness very early on. Because to be honest, you know, if you find the job quite easy, it's never easy, but you know what I mean. Yeah, if you are so you take to it, yeah. It's very easy to just focus on the here and now rather than what's gonna be next. And and especially now, you know, if you're recruiting that role now, is it still gonna be there next year? Oh my god, totally. And and most people, well, there's lots of different adoptions, right? People are either going, I'll ignore it and hope it goes away because recruitment hasn't changed much in the last 50 years, so it will still be the same. You've got, or you've got the people that are taken to the extreme and removing humans from the process, which again I don't think's right. Give you a really good example on that one. In Japan, um, I I found this very strange at first, then I got it. When there was a big deal to get over the line, a big placement, um, a senior level person, they used to take the person out. I hate to say this here, we go into the male, female. It was for the husband, they take the husband and wife out for dinner. Right. And why did they do that? Because the wife will make the final decision. Simple. Yeah. AI can't do that. No, right. So there's there's a place you can become more uh productive, you can get reduce your costs, you can use these tools for all those sorts of things, but you can't, I personally believe you can't remove the human.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

I completely agree. I completely agree. I was speaking at an event on Tuesday about this, and like that AI thing comes came up as it does in every conversation we're having at the moment, because I think we have to be talking about it and looking at how we're adopting it. But I yeah, and I and I've spoken to people who are like, oh, it's it will completely take over. And I'm like, there's already issues with it. There's already issues with being able to discern between AI, you know, resumes and and you know, you're never gonna be able to like if AI is not gonna replace dating dating, why is it gonna replace recruitment?

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Like, do you know what I did? I wrote an email the other day, it was an approach to an organization, and I checked my email to make sure it didn't sound like it was AI. Yeah, my God, it's because I couldn't written it. I'd written it, but then I thought, oh, am I using some phrases that AI would use? And I'm so stressing that they'll think it's gonna be an automated email. Do I need to put some extra you know, exclamation marks in it or something? Isn't it ridiculous that now we're having those thoughts? And like, how can we do that? So that's nuts. I will say about AI though, I phoned a restaurant the other week say I was gonna be early. It said, I'm an AI agent, I'm here to help you. It's both it was perfect. Really completely changed my viewpoint after many frustrating conversations. And before the end of the call, she said, Oh, that that pinging noise, that's the reconfirmation of your booking at an earlier time. And I thought that's amazing that every restaurant should be using this. Like that has just changed my world. It's made it so easy. Um, but that's booking a table, yeah, and it's not talking about a client, a candidate, as opposed to a culture, a feeling, an energy, and you know, and match people's livelihoods.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

Yeah, and and I think you know, there there will be adoption of it, and I know different roles will certainly shift, but if you work in a people industry, you you absolutely have to be able to judge and read people. I just I can't ever see. And and I know you know there's been been agencies that have kind of adopted some of these processes, and then they're like, well, they just don't some of them don't work, like the screen. That's because of the lack of discernment. But there's also the data.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

I would say there's a lot, there's a lot of products out there, and there's even more coming out. Um, it's the adoption of it, and then that becomes a cultural problem. Yeah, yeah. And that becomes a I'd say a leadership problem. Yeah. Because if leaders don't support the change, um then the change will never happen. Yeah, or it will only be adopted 50%, and then all this money that companies are spending will become pointless. Um, and then therefore it's about education of the leaders. And unfortunately, we've got so many generations in the workforce at the moment. Um, you know, at one point I did feel like sticking my head under a table and ignoring it all, to be honest, right? Um, and and certainly I'm I'm not the best with AI and and the use of it and all that sort of thing, but I'm trying to learn because it's it's part of my job. I have to, but there are other people that will just hope it goes away. Yeah, totally, totally. And then therefore the adoption isn't there. So, yeah, it's it's it's the roundabout. It's the same as the old days when it's like, why don't you put it on the system? Because my manager doesn't. They don't, and then you need to give everyone touch typing lessons. But now you don't need to because you can get something to record it and put it on there for you. How amazing is that?

SPEAKER_01 33:21

I would have been so I'm on there constantly. Get my notes on, get my notes on. Exactly. Um, and going back to um like the leadership piece, um, if we can go back there, I would love to find out from you. Obviously, you have been a leader across, you know, obviously the same organization for a long time, right? But lots of different, almost kind of startups, divisions, mergers within that, lots of different cultures, different countries. Like, has there ever been any points or a specific point in your leadership career where you have felt pulled away from like your authenticity as a leader, or there's been expectations you as a as a female leader that didn't necessarily align? Like, because you know, that kind of and I know a lot of people, you know, there's a lot of noise around this, but like from someone who has genuinely been like senior at the table for a long time. Like, did you ever feel there was ever a kind of a misalignment or an expectation from you as a female leader that you didn't quite meet?

SPEAKER_00 34:25

Or um not so much. Um, so I haven't had to lead in a certain way that's not true to myself. Um, anyone that knows me knows I'm down to earth. This is who I am. I'm pretty straight talking, um, I'm very direct. Um try to be fair to people, that sort of thing. So that that style doesn't change. I think what people get caught up in sometimes is messaging. And um sometimes there's messaging that you don't agree with, especially so if you work for yourself, you don't have that problem anymore. Um but if you work for other people, there's messaging that doesn't sit quite right with you. And if it's your moral compass that's affected, that's hard. Um, or if you are messaging something that you don't believe is gonna happen. Um so you know, let let's as a female leader, um, when companies start talking about quotas for females in leadership, here we go. Um but you know that you don't think it's gonna happen, but you're still having to present that, that's hard. Um and then you have then you have to make a choice. Do you not say anything and arc that which again then means that you're not doing the right thing by the instruction that you've been given because there is a hierarchy in corporate, um or you have to back something and pretend that it's gonna make change the world, even though you don't believe it is, and that can sit pretty uncomfortably with you. Um yeah, it's hard. It is really hard. Um you know, I've I've tried to be a good corporate citizen, so to speak. Um, and and and don't get me wrong, I've worked with people that I don't think I don't think it matters who you are, what you are, if you are a supporter of something, whether it be female diversity and leadership, whether it be um neurodiversity or whatever, as long as you're a support that's a support being a supporter is one step further than someone not even caring. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but but the messaging part can be hard. And yes, I've had to do that in my career. I've had to give messages that I don't a hundred percent believe in, but what I've made sure is that it's not something that goes against my moral compass. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, because then I wouldn't be able to do it.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

Wouldn't be able to do it. But and oh, and and I suppose the advice I'd give anyone is dig into what the actual messaging is. If you don't agree with it on face value, I used to be much more hot-headed. I'm a lot more measured now. Um, but you know, ask more questions about it, find out actually what they're trying to achieve. Is there actually a way to make the messaging more realistic? Um, that's what I've tried to do. Um, when I've kind of gone, I don't believe this is really gonna change the world. Um, but every little bit will help. Yeah. So, you know, getting more women into leadership, me going speaking on a panel to a group of young women in Japan who have all turned up in black suits and white shirts because that's how they get a job. Um, and they have to look uniform. And um, they asked me questions like, How can I get ahead as a female? Um, I can only tell them what I think they need to do to do that. Um if they don't believe they're gonna get in the company that they're in, then you know, one woman said to me, I feel like there's a glass ceiling above me. And I said, Well, have you tried this? Have you tried that? Have you tried that? Yeah, I've tried that all. And I said, She said, What's your advice to me? And I said, look for another job. Look for a company that will actually support female leadership progress progression. Yeah so um, so yeah, so that that is that's a hard one because as a female leader, you are asked to talk about it a lot.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

Um, and if you don't believe it, people know.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

People know.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

Well, it's like we we said when we first caught up, didn't we? We were talking about, you know, because you are one, then you get asked a a lot uh about it, and it becomes like the the focal point, I guess, of you know, we'd love you to come on this panel or we'd love you to come on this podcast and talk about like female leadership. And I guess we all can only be in our own experience with that as well, you know. And I think it is also very hard to comment on the wider spectrum of that.

SPEAKER_00 38:33

I've been talking about uh how can we promote females in leadership for 20 years. Yeah. Um, it really, really started probably back, you know, back just before I went to Japan. Um, it's obviously very pointed in Japan that it was spoken about. And sometimes you do go, and I'll I'll come back to that in a minute, but you you you do go. I can actually talk about a few other things. Like, if you want me to, I can. I I can just instead of banging the drum and telling my story and how did I get here and how can I inspire other female leaders? Sure. I I love the fact that people will look at me and think I can do it. Absolutely love that. I'm sorry. I'm so so proud that you know, that uh in businesses where it's not culturally normal for people to come back from maternity leave that in a business that I've run that we had a hundred percent return rate. You know, I love that. Uh because people were going, I can do this. Um, but I I I do have something a bit more to me than just talking about being a female leader. Yeah. Though I will get on my soapbox in a minute. I mentioned this to you earlier. Okay, we all talk about change in the recruitment industry. Yeah. And you've got some amazing women coming on this podcast. And I just did a quick Google check stat check on the way here. And um, we all know 60, 70% of the workforce in recruitment is female. Okay, so apparently we're really good at selling and filling jobs. Um, and then they become great leaders, and often people talk about how great their female leader was. And I've had males, females, I prefer to work for a female leader or this sort of thing. Um, but the industry is never going to change because at the moment, because um 20 to 30 percent of all the top uh recruitment agencies in the world, um, only 10 to 20 percent of them are run by females as CEOs. And it gets even worse when you look at the chairs of boards who are meant to be the guiding principles of the company and looking after the best interests. Um, 10 to 20 percent of chairs are female. So it's great that you've got a chair that is really supportive of having a balanced board or um making sure that they're getting the right females into how can we progress females. Maybe if we would have taken it a bit more seriously 20 years ago or even 10 years ago, we'd have better representation. Um, but sometimes people do just get fed up. I mean, I I I've had an example where in my career, you know, where someone doing exactly the same job as me got given a much bigger opportunity afterwards than I did. Um, was it down to capability? Don't know. Okay. Um, and not to sound like I died in the wool recruiter, but my results were better than theirs. Um so I I I just I don't know how we solve it, to be honest. And we've been talking about it so long. Um, and and I have to say, in specifically, um especially in the company that I worked at for so very long, I majority of the time didn't feel like there was a male-female divide.

SPEAKER_01 41:30

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 41:31

But that's because of the people that I work for.

SPEAKER_01 41:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:33

Like they didn't care who you were.

SPEAKER_01 41:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

You just had to do your job well.

SPEAKER_01 41:37

And that has to be cultural, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 41:38

And that has to be cultural, but there's still the golf course, there's still the um, you know, the boys' drinks. Like it still goes on. Yeah. Just depends where you are in the world.

SPEAKER_01 41:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it, you know, like the you it's two points there that I guess I I just want to touch on is like being a female in leadership, like then being reduced to only being able to speak about females in leadership as opposed to what I agree. This bit, I've done this. Like, why, why, why are we not, you know, that in itself I think is a problem of like the only things that we're then kind of equipped to talk about are the are the problems that kind of plague us. Um, and then I think, you know, the other thing that you that you spoke about is like at what point is there going to be a turning point? And I guess, you know, you hope that the the new focus on what, you know, you hope, but the new focus on what kind of true flexibility looks like might help support at least the kind of return to to work women who have had families and and haven't found it a very accessible career to go back to, but then there's still a lot to fix there around it. It's a 24-hour seven role, it's five days a week. You know, it's hard to run a desk without that full ownership and responsibility. So yeah, I think it's uh I think there's some great leaps and bounds made.

SPEAKER_00 42:53

Um, you know, I I found a really I I I think I've told you this one as well before, but um, there was a a woman that uh worked for me indirectly, and um we were having a discussion about her career and that sort of thing. And and she just said when she came back from maternity leave, she found it incredibly hard because she felt that to come back as in a leadership role and sit around the table with her peers, she felt she had to try and run as fast as they did still when she was coping with a a one-year-old. Um, and even then, she'd actually come back earlier than like she didn't take a full year. Yeah, and she said, I'm I'm trying to do both, and it's really hard. Um, because I know that in this world it's your results, and I know I can get good results, I just need a bit more flexibility. But at the time there wasn't the flexibility. So I think the key is the flexibility. If she'd have had more flexibility and less guilt about leaving her child, less guilt about not, you know, having to leave the office early to pick up her child when it was she'd had less more flexibility and less guilt. I think she would have found it a lot easier.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:57

So but but I I do genuinely think that um. companies are are really seeing that. But I think it can't truly be appreciated until people look and uh look up and see something different. And there's some amazing female leaders out there that have j balanced everything. Okay. Um and I think that it's a shame because people seem to get to a point still and it it comes back to um people can be great promoters but when they want to appoint their successor they think they have to be the same as them. And that's the same in you know for our clients as well. Years ago, you know, uh a chartered accountant wanted to recruit a chartered accountant because they're familiar with it, they've kept got the same background of course it's going to work.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

Yeah culture fit rather than culture ad, right?

SPEAKER_00 44:41

Yeah. So I think I think that's that's what happens as well. But as I said it's just a shame we're still talking about it. There's so many more interesting things we can be talking about it. But I just think for any female out there who's in a leadership role just keep going for it.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

Like I I never said I wanted to do the roles that I did. I just worked hard and just and then I got the opportunity because I was lucky enough to be in a place where they give you those opportunities.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

It's amazing. Conscious of time and I could sit and talk to you for hours and you know we did this last time so I could have sat there for so much longer. What advice would you give to um our audience now which I'm hoping it's a mix of men and women but I imagine would be predominantly female given the title of it to support them with navigating their careers?

SPEAKER_00 45:27

So first of all obviously I'd say never underestimate the power of a good mentor um but honestly I've had the same mentor for many years and um she's inspirational um down to earth she's me but I but but you know she's not even that that much older than me to be honest. So someone that can pick you up when you're feeling underconfident because that imposter syndrome can kick in massively so the imposter syndrome you've you've got to I've I still have it but like why why would anyone want me to come work with them? You know why? So you be a good mentor can really help you with that. And that's different to coaching right so so someone that um always keep your eyes open and look what's going on around you. Don't become so laser focused on the the advancement in your career is a byproduct of the work that you're doing rather than that being the end point and you doing everything possible to get there. Does that make sense? And enjoy what you're doing right so if you're not enjoying it then maybe it's not right for you.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:33

Because I've been in you know I've I've been in a job where I feel like I'm walking through mud and God you're exhausted by the end of each day. It's got to fill you because you know it's not the right job for you anymore.

SPEAKER_01 46:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:42

So it can be the best job and then a few years later it's not the right job for you. Yeah. So listen to your gut instinct which is what everyone tells you you shouldn't but um I think you should listen to your gut instinct um don't let anyone tell you you can't do anything because the reason we are who we are and why we're doing this job or why we're in this industry is because no one's like we haven't been told we couldn't do it. Or if we have we found a way to do it. And then that kind of leads back to don't don't expect to be given everything on a plate.

SPEAKER_01 47:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:09

Like work bloody hard and you'll get the results and then make sure it's right for what your life is at that time. Okay. Did you like my pearls of wisdom?

SPEAKER_01 47:18

Oh I loved your pearls of wisdom and then it's been beautifully silent up there and then obviously there was just a marching band which everyone would have been able to hear. Yes but it was a good background for your pearls of absolutely yes the marching band is now passed so we are and I was like can he really hear that and I was yeah um and and it was beautiful advice and I think you know so many so many women in our space like having that vulnerability to say you know I need support I need a mentor I need you know because there's almost like this need to protect in the facade and I need to be viewed in a certain way you know I don't want to show that weakness because that might affect so I think it's really important that it's like no you you need that you absolutely need mentorship.

SPEAKER_00 48:08

And or or someone to advise you it's like the more senior you get the more lonely it gets and that's for men and women right yeah so one of the things that I'm doing now is I'll be the sounding board for them to you know run through their strategy for the business before they take it to the board. I'll ask the right questions I'll you know so I think having that sounding board is really important which isn't coaching I wouldn't even say it's mentoring but it's it's being able to discuss the marching band are coming back they're coming um but it's about having having someone that you can bounce ideas off that's unbiased.

SPEAKER_01 48:40

Being able to externalise yeah so many of the people I coach it's like they just need to talk out loud yeah to talk out loud to someone and my last question for you um to the background of the marching band is what's your absolute go-to have had a fucking day of it ritual like the ultimate self-care.

SPEAKER_00 48:56

Okay so um for anyone that knows me listening to this if I start saying that I go off and run a marathon or um you know go to the gym or anything like that, they will know I'm absolutely lying. I would say that there's two things probably um one is talking to people which sounds ridiculous after I've been speaking all day um and with people all day but I still get my energy from people. So if I'm flat feeling flat or low, my husband, my friends um and I can guarantee you there's some wine involved guarantee you there's some wine involved. Less so than when I was younger but there's still some wine involved. So that's my go-to it's like I get as I said I get my optimism my energy from people so that's what I do.

SPEAKER_01 49:35

So good.

SPEAKER_00 49:36

Yeah mine is the marathon and then the wine yeah you're balance you you're a bit better than me on that one.

SPEAKER_01 49:44

Um Christine thank you so much I you know I I know I've said this and I could sit with you for hours and you've had the most incredible career and you provide such amazing advice and I really appreciate your time coming on because I know there will be a lot of people that can learn from what you have shared. So thank you so much. Thank you for inviting me. And thank you everyone for tuning in as well and we'll see you next time. Thank you. Thank you so much for tuning into this episode. I really hope you enjoyed it and have taken something away from it. Click follow to receive new episodes as they're released and if you know someone else in recruitment who needs to hear this episode please please send it their way. Lastly leaving a review is so appreciated and helps others find the podcast. I really look forward to seeing you next time