Normalizing the Hard in Relationships

GUEST INTERVIEW!

Join Miranda and her husband, Alan, as they speak to some hard chapters and growth points that were needed to build a conscious relationship. 

Topics:

• Communication- meeting each others default communication styles (and protectors) and how they worked through finding better ways to meet each other, listen, be heard, and support each other 
• Having Emotional Availability- understanding what that looks like, how sometimes it looks when there isn't any, and what they needed to be able to both feel like they are getting emotional connection....(it takes a few minutes, but they get there)
• The Rock & The Sinker- how they work to support each other when one is struggling or working through a challenging chapter, while the other is in a successful and fulfilling season. How to alternate and meet each other when you aren't on the same page in life 

Miranda & Alan like to normalize the rocks and challenges that come with dating, marriage, having kids...and the work it really takes to get to a place where you can feel supported, balanced, and able to demonstrate healthy relationships to your kids.

It takes work, challenges, experiences, and then effort...and there isn't enough real conversations with vulnerability about this!

Alan and Miranda now collaborate to offer sessions in Energy Work, Sound Healing, with some Couples Retreats in the works. 

Interested in booking Distance or In Person Soul Healing, Coaching & Mentorship, Breathwork, Reiki Energy Work, her Retreats or More:

http://www.alignedholistichealthandwellness.com

Follow Miranda Lee:

https://www.facebook.com/miranda.wiese/

https://www.instagram.com/mirandaleepodcast

Follow her Studio Aligned Holistic Health & Wellness:

https://www.instagram.com/aligned.holistichealth/

https://www.facebook.com/AlignedHolisticHealthandWellness/

Check out her Heart Led Writing on Substack:

https://itsmirandalee.substack.com/

Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to the Brand Lee Podcast. A life fully lived embraces every season, the highs and the lows. Allowing ourselves to love fiercely, feel our feelings, and trust to land side. This is a heartless space created for just that. Deep, vulnerable conversations, connections, learning to unlearn, become part of a beautiful community while growing and healing right alongside me. Because everything is easier with support and lived experiences shared with the right kind of people. Let's step off autopilot, get a little uncomfortable, take a breath, and dive right in. Welcome back to the space and community. I am very excited about my chat today. I am joined by oof, I'm gonna get all emotional. I'm joined by my person, my best friend, my husband Ellen. Um welcome.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Happy to be here. Excited. Excited to be part of this journey of yours.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

And I have to say, I'm very grateful for oh, you always give gentle little nudges. I've had, I've said in previous episodes, I've had my mic for like six years. I've just been like, um, trusting the timing, releasing perfectionism, as I've said, but I do appreciate you because there's been several times where you're like, what are you doing right now? And I'm like, nothing. And you're like, well, let's go record. And I'm just like, freeze. Like, just panic because, well, you do a good job of bringing me out of perfectionism and just being like, do it. So thanks.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Yeah, you're welcome. We do that for each other, I think, in both aspects. You light a fire under my ass if needed, and I do the same for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

The most loving, compassionate, kind fire under the ass.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Definitely tries to be, yeah. And it's and it's uh I try to approach it with not I don't like to say caution, but it's like, okay, I want to try and motivate her to do the thing she wants to do, but I'm not sure what kind of headspace she's in right now. So let me just sit and pay attention and then I'll navigate how I can approach this encouragement properly without it being met with maybe hostility or something along that line.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

Well, and I'll say to that, when you do suggest it, it's never a you thing. It's that like putting a mirror in front of me and me being like, I know, I haven't done it. It's not it's a reflection of me and my own inner critic and my own inner judgment.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Well, and I I know we all have that and we all judge ourselves. So when somebody else is putting pressure, it feels like pressure at the time, but like putting encouragement to pressure you to get moving on the things you want to do, it's it's sometimes met with like, yeah, I know I'm already doing this to myself. Like, I'm already putting that pressure and encouragement on myself to get myself motivated.

SPEAKER_02 2:57

And sometimes it feels like when somebody else does that, it's like it's anger, not towards that person, but it's just like it's easier to be annoyed at the person who made you have to be triggered by your own shit.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Yeah. Right. And to just take the accountability and yes and move on.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

I think, and I've spoken to this also, but just uh we've both grown in this respect, I think, by being able to understand that you you trying to support me and it triggering me, it's like take a step back and sitting with myself and being like, okay, but what is this really about? Like, is it really about him, or what do I need to be really honest with myself about? Like, yes, I've been procrastinating. Yes, I really want to do this, but yes, I'm nervous and all the things. Um, I'm gonna say there's segue number one, and there will be many segues. Let's um let's introduce us, you. Um, so people kind of know um we've been together for almost 18 years. We are almost at the having been together the same amount of time in our life as we've been apart, which I think is really cool. Um, we've been married for 13 years this August. Love that. Um, yeah, Alan and I are the same age. We met when we were twenty three. Um, and Alan now, oh who are you? Tell us about yourself.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Just a small town boy. Uh who am I? I don't know. I'm a father, I'm a husband, I'm a business owner, I'm a curious guy, I'm quick-tempered, loving, um, emotional. Commercials get me. Cry at commercials.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Um I love that about you though.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Yeah, I don't know. I'm a I'm a many things. I'm a many things, and still finding out more and more about myself as it goes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:08

You've owned your business for coming up ten years. As a contractor.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

And your newest little hobby trade.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Yeah, do pottery. And I did start doing that during COVID, and it just was like a whim. Kind of feeling bored and stuck, and you know, just Facebook doom scrolling and pottery videos kept popping up, and I'd be like, ooh, that's cool. Ooh, that's satisfying to watch. Ooh, that'd be easy. And then so I was like, Well, there's gotta be somebody, somebody around the area that does it. And yeah, Saskatoon was the closest place.

SPEAKER_02 5:47

So I wanna say I was in I was going through like trying new shit out. We were both in a like finding new joy kind of chapter.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

What were you doing?

SPEAKER_02 5:58

Uh, I think I was taking training.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Yeah, you would have been taking a lot of things.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

I think I'm doing my like somatic training or my Reiki or diving into like just new tools and new things, and yeah, fully supportive of you finding a hobby outside work and outside of just being the man of the house and parenting.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Mm-hmm. Yeah, so that took off and then COVID hit, so then classes kind of went to shit. And we I just was like, well, I'll set something up in the house, and it kind of just progressed from there. It's fun.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

Yeah, it's been really awesome to watch you find a hobby. I think oof, if we haven't learnt anything, it's uh both of us need hobbies outside of work, especially as entrepreneurs.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

I find I find sometimes with this though, is like it's addicting for sure. And I get obsessed to the point where like I'd rather do my hobby than anything else, and then I start feeling guilty about doing my hobby. I'd be like, oh, like kids are home and the family's all home, but I'd rather be out in the garage making pots or something and just relaxing that way. And I'm like, Well, no, you shouldn't, you should go. And then it's like, oh, when do you like feel yeah, feeling guilty about enjoying myself doing things I like and then but I mean that happened with work too. Like sometimes it was like, oh, I don't want to do these jobs sometimes because it takes me away from being at home.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

And but I think it comes down to balance again, too. Because as they're talking about, I'm like, first of all, how amazing that you found something that you love so much that you want to immerse yourself in. That's amazing. Um and yeah, I think it it does come down to balance because like too much of a good thing sometimes, right? And sometimes it's like avoiding. I'll catch myself avoiding things I need to do just by oh, I should probably go do this hobby. I should probably go in whatever, whatever the thing is that isn't what I need to do. Probably should be doing. Yeah. Okay, so I am super excited because I think there's lots of things we've learned over the last almost 20 years together of being in relationship. Uh, we've gone through lots of phases. Obviously, not having kids, then having kids, working through that chapter of feeling like your roommates, and then like doing our work on our own, but also together, and getting to this place where I'm really grateful that we've both invested in ourselves and in each other and are at a place where we can really hold space and reflect on what we've learned and how and what what was hard. And I think we talk about this lots too, just what is like bullshit about relationships and what it actually looks like, and maybe what we were shown when we were kids and then what we actually needed to see. And I always say, and I've said this in many podcasts and to many clients, but maybe I'm fucking up in some of the ways that I've done it for sure. Um, but I think there's lots of takeaways that you and I can speak to. So today we thought we would hop in and chat about maybe our like top three um things that we've had to work through and find ourselves to land feeling grounded and strong in our relationship about. So um, should we dive into first communication?

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Why not?

SPEAKER_02 9:49

Ooh, communication. What was okay, so make sure I'm not the only one talking, but uh I was once they get up moving. I was very much so. I'm a person who needs to hear or or step away from the situation, be able to process by myself. I'm very emotional, so I've worked through that, but being able to sit with what I hear, process my thoughts, and then come back. And I think for me, um, part of it was a little bit of running away, but I've I've learned the running away piece was because I'm emotional, and so sometimes I want to not be emotional in front of someone because that used to feel like weakness, but also because sometimes with the big emotions, there's like a reactivity, and I didn't want to like regret what I'd say or speak out of like heat of the moment, right? And I I wasn't very good at just grounding myself, and so I would need to, if we got in an argument or had a disagreement, I would need to leave. And I wasn't great at circling back to have the conversation, I'd have the conversation in my head over and over and over again, and to come to you and be like, hey, can we talk about that? I feel like I wasn't shown that as a kid, but also it just that was a hard, vulnerable piece for me, and I know for you that felt like I was running away.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

I feel yeah, um, I don't know if I felt like you were running away. I felt like in those moments where we're having a disagreement and me being the type of person be like, let's I just want to work through this now so it's done and dealt with. And you wouldn't, and then I'd spend the rest of the time wondering what's going on, where's she at in her head, and you just be quiet walking around the house, leave to your job, and I'd be left at the house, be like, Well, that didn't get resolved, and now I'm stuck here with my thoughts, wondering what's going on with you, and like, how can I solve this? What where are we going with this? So I don't think I felt like you were running away, but it did feel like uh I was always in trouble. It was always like my fault because it was never getting talked about. So then I would end up I feel like I would end up just like swallowing it and being like, okay, well, apologize to her when she gets home for whatever I did in the situation. And then at least maybe we can move on from it. And we never really would get down to the actual issue or the problem.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

Um And in saying that, both of us well, I don't drink anymore. Alan very rarely drinks, but that was a thing. Like it wasn't only that, but oof, and I would just it's interesting because both of us felt like we were just swallowing our shit. And yet I would I would appear probably mad, but half the time I was sad, or I just like didn't have the courage to it was easier to live in resentment, and s it wasn't easier, but it felt like it in the moment than to, I don't know. It felt when we would have those moments like I needed space, but you weren't coming at me, but that's how it felt.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

And I remember talking about this in couples counseling, um about that, like And that was like one of the that was one of the things I had troubles with was um feeling comfortable enough to express what I'm feeling to you in a sense where it's like if I do, I'm gonna get attacked. Like I'm gonna get attacked and it's gonna get turned around and be all about how what I just said made you feel, instead of it being met with like, oh, I didn't realize I was making you feel that way. I'm sorry. And so and I think a lot of men deal with this. I think this is a very common thing, and I um took me a while to not to understand that like if I'm coming to you and we're having an issue, and I come to you with I something I'm having a problem with between us, and it's met with hostility or anger or judgment or resentment or something that it's like, okay, well, that isn't my problem that you're feeling what I said about how I feel is making you feel that way because it obviously triggered you in a sense where there's some truth behind there.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

Mm-hmm. And so, you know, as you're talking about that, I'm like, how did we get through that? But um took a long time.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

It did take a long time. Like I'd say, when did we have kids? How when 13 years ago we had Melee?

SPEAKER_03 15:25

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

So 13 years ago, I've never had kids. And like I've never I never been around little kids. So I didn't know how to be a dad. Nobody told me. Uh so I just kept doing the same things I always did. And like I quickly, not quickly, over the course of seven years of like me not showing up consistently, uh, just doing the same repetitive drinking and lying about where I was and who I was with. Um just so I don't know why. Because it was it was hard to come home sometimes just because I didn't know what I was doing. Um But anyways, the that piled up over seven years. And I mean that's when the hard work actually started.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

Well, and I remember hitting a point. Um, I th okay, before I go to that, I think it's like super important. I just read a really good book about this too, and I would agree with it, and so would some of my really grounded friends who have done lots of their inner work and our parents and our wives, we've talked about just the control piece, and like um we've never done the mothering thing. Yes, it's more instinctual for sure, but I think there is this feeling like we need to know how to do it, first of all, because let's admit in the first certain amount of time the kid needs you, you know, the kid needs the most. Yeah, and so whether you know what you're doing or not, you figure it out, you make it work, but then the like household shit and all of that, we're very much made to feel like we should be able to handle it. Uh, we're in a society where women need like we feel like we need to handle everything on our own, we need to be independent, we need to be strong. And so I think that's where for me, anyways, it was like, hey, I gotta get the the house needs to be organized and the kids need to be taken care of, and um, you just kind of take a control over it because well, in in our case too, I do remember being like it doesn't matter how he does it, but it did matter to me, and that shouldn't have, because as long as as long as you're showing up and doing things the way that work for you, I should be honoring that. But we developed this control piece, and so yeah, it was hard for me to meet my vulnerable parts and show vulnerability when I felt like I needed to have my shit together and I needed to be controlling. And now that you when you say that too, like I didn't know what I was doing, it's like I probably was living in a headspace, like, okay, he's showing that he doesn't know what he's fucking doing, so I need to have my shit together. And I I like just even saying that feel how like the power and control piece comes up as a protector, but then I wasn't able to meet you with the same like compassion that I'm meeting these kids with. Um, but I remember the moment we had a little, I don't remember what it was. Honestly, I think it was about drinking, about you coming home drinking. That was a really big one. And um, I remember leaving. Like, we got in a big argument. I left the house, I got my vehicle with our dog, went for a drive, and parked like just outside of town. I was like, holy shit. This has been me in relationships, though. I needed to just like pack up my shit and go and just be alone. And I was like, oh, I'm so over this, and I'm sitting there being like, my kids are seeing this. Like, oh, that was what always broke me. Yeah, is like I don't want this for my kids, I don't want them to see that. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

And they remember too, because I I remember like I wasn't a I wasn't a good not that I was a bad dad at the beginning, but like drinking was a very big part of who I was. It was my a lot of my identity. And I remember, I don't know if I've ever shared this story with you, but I went to go pick up Melee from gymnastics. She would have been four at the gymnastics club, five maybe, and pulled went to make a turn to go into the gymnastics club. Well, and instead of turning into the road that would take me to the gymnastics club, I turned down the wrong side of the highway. So now I'm traveling against traffic, and like I didn't realize for about the first three seconds, and then I was like, holy shit, and panicked. Thankfully, there was no traffic coming. Panicked, made my quick left that I needed to, and then up to the gymnastics club. And I was just thinking, that moment was so scary, and I thought, what are you doing? Like, you're going to pick up your daughter from an event. Like, where is your head? And Melee will tell me stor will tell me things from when she was that age that I didn't even know she would remember. Or like, she's like, remember when you did this and this? I was like, what? Like, that's a core memory of yours? Like, oh my god, I'm so sorry. Ugh. Just thinking back that that's getting making me emotional. Like, I did I had no um like no concern for my actions impacting my kids at that young of an age. I just didn't realize it it would because I don't remember things when I was a kid up until like seven years old, maybe and I was just like, oh, crazy.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

Anyway, so yeah, I think we had both just hit a point where like this isn't working, but wanting to try. And I wanna say I was already seeing a counselor. I can't remember, I think so. But anyways, we had an amazing couples counselor that we committed both of us to going to. Um and I wasn't

SPEAKER_01 22:00

As on board right away, but I quickly got on board.

SPEAKER_02 22:04

Yeah, and I am still grateful for that. Um, yes, I was already seeing a counselor because I remember and I tell clients this lots. Um I remember the first like two months of couples counseling sitting there and it a lot of it being about you and like listening to you talk about your drinking and them not validating that it wasn't an issue.

SPEAKER_03 22:32

Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:33

And so I'm super grateful that that we were able to go through that, but also that I was able to just sit there and listen. And yes, in my head, I was for sure like, yeah, no shit. Like, I hope you're seeing this as a problem. But the biggest tool that I think was my big takeaway was that journal. They had us get a book, and that was our like, if we couldn't have a face-to-face conversation, one of us would write, and the rules were you didn't have to have a timeline on responding and you didn't have to talk about it, but obviously the end goal of it was to create an opportunity to have conversation. But I love journaling and writing, and it was easy for me to sit down and write out what I really needed to say to you, but couldn't. Because I could also sit by myself, ball my eyes out, write this letter, feel like well, I didn't have to say it out loud too.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Well, and then there's no tone attached to it either, because sometimes things are met with like a hard tone, and then you're not listening to the words that are being said, you're listening to the tone and how it's being.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

Then I also had to own what I was putting down.

unknown 23:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

Someone was gonna read it.

SPEAKER_02 23:55

Yes, yeah, and that was huge for us.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

That was a great tool. Oh, absolutely. It was amazing, and then it made it it made you sit and think. So if I was reading one of your entries, I'd be like, huh. How do I want to respond to this truthfully? And like makes you think about yourself really hard before you put it on the phone. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

It gives you that time to let yourself sit with it. I would say um, we still have it, by the way. Yeah, I might have in a rage ripped it up one day. I know, but I did. We even talked about it not long after that, but I did put it back together, guys. Um, we should peek through that one day, but yeah, I just remember it did. It allowed you time. I felt like my heart wrote the notes. Whereas if I would have been standing looking at you, ooh, I would have held back on lots of my like sadness, vulnerability, because I would have felt like defense, you know?

SPEAKER_01 24:52

Yeah, and and maybe it's just that the like being able to actually be with someone who wants the best for you with no like nothing attached to it, yes, yeah, and it's hard being because it goes both ways for sure, and it's hard to see you tearing up, I'm tearing up too. It's hard because you sit there and you just think, like, I want the best for you, and then all of the bad things that have happened to that person in their lives, not that you have to deal with it, but they're yours now to hold and to like just embrace with that person. Because it's like I didn't create these terrible things that you're going through, but I'm here to help you through them, even though sometimes you're projecting them at me. Yeah, and it's it's just that's the hardest thing is that all the past relationships and all the past traumas that a person's been through, when you do find your person that you spend, they're the ones that get to put you back in. Hold that, hold that trash bag of yeah, of trauma, and and and trauma's not always super terrible, it can be little things, but hold that trauma trash bag and just wait until we can throw it in the garbage together.

SPEAKER_02 26:09

Yeah. Or just carry it along your whole trick.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

Or just keep it with you, like like the traveling hobo.

SPEAKER_02 26:15

Yeah, that was huge though, that couple's journal. Yeah, huge, and then it did do its purpose, and we would literally, I do an entry, or Al would do an entry, and then we'd be able to sit with both of our reflections. And also, okay, this might sound really cheesy, but there was a like excitement part about like and sometimes it was days. Yeah, we were pretty good, I think, about replying quick, but I know that's been a tool that I've talked to both of our kids about using too. I don't know that we've ever fired it up, but like if there's something you can do.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Our kids are very good at coming to us and talking to us now. Like, after because they like I said, they see the things you don't think they see, and they see us doing our work and the way we communicate now. And even like yesterday, the the blow up Braxton and I had the other day about turning the TV off and whatever. Uh, he came to me last night and he's like, Dad, I just need to apologize. I'm so sorry from yesterday. And he like sat down with me and we had a whole conversation of why he felt the way he needed to respond, and yeah, it was great. I was like, Thank you. And all he needed was a day to kind of process everything and be like, oh And so he's very much like me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:38

And our daughter's very much like Alan. Um, I think by default, but yeah, we've had to learn to be able to um, I think part of it's just let yourself feel what you need to feel, and then also drop the needing to pin whatever you're feeling on your person and letting yourself meet them and be able just to have conversations. And we certainly still we still do a better job too of one person talks, the other person talks, and like act of listening, which is huge, not oof, I remember, I still have to like unlearn this because it's a protector of mine. But if there's conflict, my brain, we talked about this not long ago, will automatically start like digging up defenses, and I I think part of that's being a girl and a woman because oof, by dealing with other women.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

That's just a defense mechanism women can take into it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:49

I think so, because you have to learn to like not have dirt on anybody, but be able to like defend yourself all the time or advocate for yourself, and that's probably what you've told me that n before, and I and I think my response was like that's gotta be exhausting, and it is exhausting to like have to hold on to this data that you don't need, and it's like ugh, you could be storing so much better. However, so if we would have had a conflict, I would have like had so many conversations in my head of resentment or frustration or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

Basically, remember when, remember when you did this, you did that.

SPEAKER_02 29:29

Yeah, and so I feel like I've learned that I don't need those. And and I'm really grateful because we've obviously created a space where where you hold space for me, and I don't need to be in defense, and you've also proven to me that that you care to hear my stories and you can hold space. And if your partner can't hold space yet, I think those defenses are gonna be there. Um, but also just I'm careful what rooms I put myself in now. If I'm in a room where I feel like I'm gonna need that part of me, that protector, um, I usually leave, you know? Like I find myself now in my studio in circles and surrounded by people who I genuinely love and want to be around, or complete strangers but having deep conversations.

SPEAKER_03 30:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

But if the chatter is small talk or work or whatever, those defenses are like building up just like what can I say? What am I gonna say? Because it's not official, like it's not genuine, it's not authentic, it's me just talking because the other person probably wants to fucking talk about themselves, talk about themselves or have something they can say about you, which isn't necessarily true, but that's what my kind of protectors say to me. Yeah, so that being able to hold space for each other has been huge, and being able to meet each other. We still do have our blow-ups though, yeah. And I think, you know, I'm so proud of the fact that when we were doing the work, it was like, where are you guys going? The kids would ask. And we'd have my parents come over to watch the kids, and it was like, we're going to couples counseling, like, really obvious about it and not being like secretive about it. We're going because there's some things that we need to work on, and I am always it like brings me so much joy when the kids talk about how much they appreciate our relationship or how we've changed, or oh, and so when we do have those blow-ups, I remember one in the winter. Um I was just working through my own shit, and we had a big blow-up, and I left. I pulled that move again, and I left and like what part of winter?

SPEAKER_01 31:52

I I don't remember this.

SPEAKER_02 31:55

It was some part in the winter just because I remember there was a game online that I needed to watch for one of the teams I trained. And I remember like coming home from this event that I went to, sitting down, watching this game, and just being like kind of shut down and locked out. And then I want to say both kids were home, and you and I like got into like a bit of a yelling match, and then we like just were able to dial it down, have a conversation. Then I remember we called the kids down and we're like, hey, let's talk about what happened today. Because yeah, did I handle it the best? No. Do we always handle arguments amazing? Absolutely not. But what I'm really grateful for, and our big takeaway with communication, is that like ability to come back and talk about it, and then also pull the kids in to be like, hey, yeah, it's okay. Sometimes you're gonna be an adult and in a relationship and you're not gonna handle things calm and collective, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

The fact that we bring our the fact that we don't hide those arguments from our kids, I think it's huge because they don't get this fake sense that relationships are all just hugs and kisses. They are dirty, they are messy, they get loud.

SPEAKER_02 33:19

It's so huge, I think.

SPEAKER_01 33:21

For them to see the the the dirt and ugliness of it, but then then also get to see the repair that happens and then the aftermath, yeah, the steps it takes to repair it, and then the aftermath, it's like, okay, back to love.

SPEAKER_02 33:37

Yeah, you know, yeah, that's that's oh, and how I like it's the best feeling when you've processed all of it and you're just like sitting there with each other. Oh so nice. It's like falling back in love with someone. But and in saying that, the things that we've had blow ups about weren't things the kids couldn't hear about. Like they weren't they weren't like real adult things that should have been private because there's times and places that absolutely doesn't need to be. But um, yeah, I think a huge a huge piece is I had in my head, I'm a romantic. I think like, oh, good relationships must look like the fucking movie.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

Thanks, Hallmark.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

But also like our parents' floor. Our parents' ceiling is our floor. So however our parents grew up, whatever they were able to show us, um, perfect. No, the they did the best they could, yeah. But that's like our starting place. And I and in saying that, I feel like that is where we started, except that we really dove into the work and both of us did our own healing work outside of that, too, which is so important.

SPEAKER_01 34:52

Oh, yeah. You can't, you can't, you can't do healing together unless you're working on yourself separately.

SPEAKER_02 35:00

Yeah, and you have to- It just doesn't work. You have to find the ability to have self-love and know that you deserve better and that you want to be better. I think that's huge. And so, side note, you can't change your man, women, but you can change who you are, how you show up, and the space you can hold for the world.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

And I would say in doing that work, your your man will just automatically shift towards that. Shift towards the good that you're doing for yourself. Because all we really want is to just be respected and appreciated.

SPEAKER_02 35:44

Okay, so I feel like that ties us into our second one that we kind of were talking about emotional availability. And just how I, for years and years and years, you were always like, it's not that you weren't emotionally available, but it didn't neither of us came emotional availability without a blow-up or without drinking, or you know, we didn't just sit and pour our hearts out to each other on really deep level about things that were bothering us or any of that. And so, yes, for a really long time, and I think this is really common in relationships, I wanted emotional availability. That was a that was a big one for me when I was in my lowest low. It was like, okay, the load of life is too much for me to carry. I need I need for it me to not be the only person who feels the big shit.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

So that so what would have emotional, what would emotional availability have looked like to you from me back then?

SPEAKER_02 36:54

Well, first of all, sorry, just let me say that I, without getting really vulnerable with my own emotions, yeah, that would have done me no value. And in saying that, I think you needed to be less available while I was learning my own emotions. Because like if you if I'm in a a dark spot and I'm super emotional and I'm feeling all the things, like our son's diagnosis, that was a really big one for me. Felt like I was carrying it, and you were like, I'm good. And we've we've talked through this, but um, I wanted more emotion from you, but I needed to be in that place to be able to allow you to have that vulnerability.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

Am I talking circles? I feel like it, but I'm just trying to understand.

SPEAKER_02 37:51

So we were roommates, yeah, basically. Um, I felt like I was tending to all the kids' emotional shit. I was having resentment towards you, towards your drinking. Um, I had got my diagnosis. I was laying in bed depressed for days on end. Um, but then I'm like pulling my shit together, going to work, um, leaning into my girlfriends who could kind of help me navigate stuff, but it was mostly me just venting. And I I still think my counselor was really big at just acknowledging that, like, yeah, this is heavy, and yeah, emotionally you can't carry this yourself. But I was trying to be emotional, but also do everything.

SPEAKER_01 38:39

Right. So that's what like brings me back to my question. What would emotional availability have looked like to you from me at that time? What did you need from me at that time? Emotionally. Like just to just to lay with you and be in the herumph of it, or um I think what I needed that makes me feel silly too.

SPEAKER_02 39:06

But this is like I have to really reflect on this because we've been I feel like we've been pretty grounded, and there's more emotional. Like, you know, we're always talking about our feelings now.

SPEAKER_03 39:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:21

And then we don't really hide that stuff. Then I I do have to sit with that. Okay, so let me this is what I think was going on. Is you were giving you were taking good care of me, the household, you were doing the things, doing the dad checklist, right? But all I felt like I was seeing was you when you were annoyed or angry or had nothing to give, kind of. And it looked to me like you scrolling on your phone or you know watching TV or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

And it was probably partly what I wanted to see in you too, because like there was a sense of, oh, he's calm, so it's not the end, or there's not a whole lot to worry about.

SPEAKER_02 40:19

No, it was that there was no like affection, there was no connection. There was you doing the things you have to do in your day, and then other than that, checked out.

SPEAKER_03 40:29

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 40:30

That's where I'm come kind of coming from. However, in saying that, I was still, I think, up until the point where I hit my low low and really had to like be vulnerable with my emotions. I feel like I still would have had that defense going of like, if you were to try do a nice gesture, I probably would have had some sort of resentment bubble up or something that you didn't do that annoyed me. And I don't know that I would have been able to actually hold the space for you to be emotionally available, which is what I speak to a lot and I think is really important is that women, when we're craving this like emotional availability and the softness and this like compassion and nurturing from our partner in an emotional way, if you haven't met yourself there yet, you won't even know what to do with it from the person who's supposed to kind of give you your security. Like a man is kind of the portrayal of what he's supposed to bring to the house and the family, right? Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 41:30

Yeah, that was there was just a lot said there.

SPEAKER_02 41:33

Not me.

SPEAKER_01 41:35

So I'm just like sifting through the words that you just said and being like, okay, yeah, yeah. I went on a side quest. Where do we go from here?

SPEAKER_02 41:43

Yeah, it was connection.

SPEAKER_01 41:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 41:47

And I felt like I was just getting the hard edges of you, like I might as well have been one of your co-workers.

SPEAKER_01 41:52

Well, for sure, and like absolutely, yeah. And where do I want to go with that? Because I had something to say. Um it was hard. No, we're good. I it was it was hard, and it is still, this is still like something I really work on. But running my business, I would have been probably fresh in it at that time, not many years in, anyway.

SPEAKER_02 42:15

A couple years in, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

Um so running a business and then coming home and having to shut off that business boss mode and enter dad husband mode, very bad at it. I was terrible at it. I came home and still expected the household to run like my job site would.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

Uh I think that's common too.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

I remember barking orders when things didn't go the way that I pictured them in my head. I'd be like, people are useless. People are incompetent. What's the point? Like, i it and it to the point where like everything irritated me. And and when I mean everything, I mean like everything would hear, like the way people would walk. I'd be like, oh my god, pick up your feet, or like, holy hell, why are you shuffling, you know? Uh or yeah, like the minor things would just set me off because I was living in a state of just heightened uh irritation. And I I didn't mind it. Like I I functioned pretty well at the that state, it's just nobody liked to be around me. Um, so I wasn't even able to give emotional affection. And I think me not being emotionally present was the only way I felt like I could just relax.

SPEAKER_02 43:42

Yeah, probably a protector too, right?

SPEAKER_01 43:44

I I have nothing to give because what's the old say if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all. And that's where I was living. Like I had just negative things all the time to say about everything happening around me, so I just wouldn't. Say anything and I would shut down and just wait for the next day to come and then leave the house and be like, Oh, I can breathe because I'm in my I'm in control now of the things that are around me, where in the household I wasn't, and it was hard to give that up, and like I didn't understand what I was feeling and why I was feeling the way I did, and it would so I I would meet it with just like complete, like you said, check out. I would just check out the instant I walked through the door, be like dunk, autopilot.

SPEAKER_02 44:34

And then I think for me, then I felt like I needed to dial my availability up for the kids. And I remember my counselor saying, It's not your job to be the pillow between your husband and his kids in the emotional way. And like your relationship with the kids is not my responsibility in that regard, like what you give to them is ultimately between you guys, and I had to really let go of me feeling like I needed to like protect that or um make a better relationship or window for you and the kids. And it's not that you were a bad dad by any means, but I had bad habits, it wasn't my job to try and harbor or like cater or try fluff up the stuff between you and them, and that was a really big like take that off my shoulders and just be who I am with my kids, work on my relationship with my husband, and just let what what they have be. And those are like almost one of those, like I'm t I'm taking away and probably making it worse, even by trying to put band-aids on it when really I needed you to be able to see and them to be able to see so that you guys could then work on that. I needed to get my foot out from between you guys so that you guys could feel and process and change whatever needed to happen.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

Yeah, so we could build on our relationship the way it needed to. Yeah, instead of being forced a relationship that didn't naturally occur in a way.

SPEAKER_02 46:22

So question how did you or what changed your availability to be emotional with me and to like be more present and be more do you remember? Maybe you don't.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

I'm sitting here like yeah, I I remember the moment. I don't know if I came home for lunch or I came home early after like from days work or whatever. I think it was a lunchtime thing, doesn't matter. And you had a counseling meeting or a session online, and uh you were upstairs, and I was walking around the house, and I could hear you talking, and I shouldn't have, but I was like, I'm gonna just kind of listen in and hear I know, yeah. And I was like, what's she gonna say? And then I just heard you talking about a friend of yours, and you said, I just wish he would be more like him. Like he'll bring me just a nice coffee and a gesture like that, and like, why can't Alan be that that guy? And I was like, triggered instantly, and I was just like, What do you mean? This this right away I was like, Oh, he brings you coffee, that's what you need, but like housing you and feeding you and keeping the house, that's not enough. And like, oh, I went absolutely hot, red, shaky, and then you came downstairs and I couldn't not walk around the house. I was like pacing around the house uncomfortable because I just wanted to blow up, but I didn't want you to know that I was like snooping on you, but it wasn't it wasn't like a oh I'm gonna go snoop. I was like, I wonder what she's talking about, and I just caught a bad part.

SPEAKER_02 48:13

Did you think in all my counseling that you were never part of the discussion?

SPEAKER_01 48:18

Oh no, okay, no, no, it wasn't the fact that I was part of the discussion, it was the fact that I thought I I'm here, and you're like praising this person you've met and known for like two months, and he's just being nice, and I was like, Okay, that's cool. Has he been through the shit with you though? Does he get to deal with the fucking day to days with you? And the art no, he gets the nice good version of yourself, and it's like and you were like, and he was just great, and I was like, Well, like, yeah, I'd be great if I only saw you once a week or once a month, too. But I don't. I see you every day. So it was that was it was hard to hear.

SPEAKER_02 49:04

That was a that hurt me big time, and like and I remember so speaking about emotional availability and like connection, it was also like um I would you'd come home at lunch and just like eat your lunch and leave. Or I would call you in the day and I could tell you were annoyed that I was calling you. And it was just like I I just wanted to connect.

SPEAKER_01 49:31

To connect, yeah, and like to talk not about right, and like so and funny because like I've had these conversations with other men and it's been like she calls me about nothing, and I'll be like, Yeah, I know, and it's like to the point where I get home, and now we have nothing to talk about because she's called me seven times in the day to tell me about her day, and it's like what are you doing? First of all, I was like, don't answer the call. You could do that, just don't answer. But then that's met with resent not resentment, but that's meant with like anger. Why didn't you answer? It's like, well, I'm working, and like I'd have to take time out of my day to talk to you about something that could have waited till tonight. Then we'd have be able to sit down face to face and have things to talk about. Like, I that this isn't just a me and you thing. This happens across the board. And it's just like it's hilarious to the point where like we joke about it. Guys will joke about it, be like, oh, see you in an hour, like you'll even go have your fifth phone call. And it's yeah, it's not that I was annoyed that you were calling, it's just I knew it would be not nothing, but to me, something that could have waited. And it's not that I didn't want to talk, or it was just like, no, but I'm in the middle of stuff, and and you would be and you would say, Oh, just tell me that you're in the middle of something. It's like, yeah, I know, I could, but just we could also just not call. Or send a text, be like, hey, when you're free, call me. Or you know what I mean? There's there's definitely ways around it, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:11

And I think the intention behind it when I call you, anyways, because even still, there's still times where I know you're like, fuck.

SPEAKER_01 51:17

Well, and you tell me all the time, oh, I'm just excited. I just want to talk to my person. I just want to see how are you?

SPEAKER_02 51:23

And like I just want to say hi and see how your day is, and it doesn't even need to be a long chat. Like, sometimes that's it. However, in saying that, I've also um kind of gotten to a place where I'll call my girlfriends instead to just say a quick hello because they want to say hello. And I think that's fair and valid. And I think that was a new one for me though, too, because I um I don't know, maybe it was just an expectation. I miss you though, too, yeah, in a day. So even just being like, how's your day going?

SPEAKER_01 51:57

But calling people all day, not all day, sorry, I'm never like also for the record, I don't dispose people all day. Just me dialing everybody all day long. Who's gonna answer? Who's gonna answer? Um, but like it's hard to miss somebody when you're in contact with them all the time. So it's like if I'm getting phone calls three times a day, it's like now I don't miss you. Or now I don't get the opportunity to miss you, now I'm just annoyed. You know? I mean, it doesn't happen a lot. We're making this sound like it happens a whole lot, but it doesn't.

SPEAKER_02 52:36

It doesn't matter. Part of the reason was because our evenings we didn't really see each other.

SPEAKER_01 52:42

Yeah, we were busy.

SPEAKER_02 52:43

Like I would be home with the kids during the day, yeah. Running my day home, or I have always had classes at night, so I'm not home at supper like ever.

SPEAKER_03 52:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:53

And then yeah, so it was my like it probably felt like my evening check-in, because then I'm gone. Before the kids get home, a quick hello, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:04

And I get it, and most times I'm receiving it pretty well. I'll call I'll I'll talk. It definitely helps if I got headphones in and I can just keep working while I'm talking. That helps. Um, so I don't know. I don't mind them much anymore. But then sometimes it's just like I I should and I don't, but I should just be like, look, not in the best moods right now. It's just hitting the fan at work, I'll call you in a bit. Or instead of being like, mm-hmm, yep, mm-hmm, okay. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:34

Well, I can tell if you don't want to talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 53:35

And you're like, well, okay, you don't want to talk, bye. And I'll be like, Yep. And then I say to myself, Don't call me then.

SPEAKER_02 53:42

Okay, off the phone side quest. Question for you. Um, and maybe this is what I asked, but then we went on a side quest. But what was it that made you feel like you could be more vulnerable or check in?

SPEAKER_01 53:57

Like what was um I think there were because there was like I was going through a lot of insecurities, and you kept reassuring me as much as I probably didn't believe at the time. You're like, I'm still here. You'd be like, I'm still here. Like if we got in my like in a fight, and you'd be like, I'm not going anywhere. Like, I'm still here. And I think eventually, after hearing that enough, um, I was just like, Yeah, like she is still here. Like, no matter what I've done, said, she's still here, she didn't go anywhere. Like, you're good. Like, it's it's I don't remember saying this. Oh yeah. Yeah. Um, so I think it was probably that, just like the constant reassurance of even though it was said in arguments, but like you were proven a point.

SPEAKER_02 54:59

Look how wise I was without even knowing your blackout wisdom.

SPEAKER_01 55:05

Um, yeah, so it was like I think it was just the reassurance and then seeing it too. Like hearing it's one thing, yes, yes, yes, but then like seeing it and being like, okay, like then it gave me time to like work on those insecurities.

SPEAKER_02 55:20

I think now that you say that, a big thing for me was always that like I could see below the layer of like the hard edge and the like kind of absent affection or whatever was this like soul that was really soft, and I knew like you'd always be emotional, like movies and stuff like that, and like you have a huge heart, you always care about everybody else, and I think it was just like I could see that and I knew that was under there, it just needed I don't know to crack open.

SPEAKER_01 55:58

And I do, I see that to be shown, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:01

Did you need somebody else to hold that space for you before I could? Like counseling or I don't know, your men's groups that you used to go to?

SPEAKER_01 56:14

Um I think it well counseling definitely helped in the sense where like I could go there and just basically unload what I've been feeling with no judgment, nothing. Met with like a question here and there, like they'd stop me and be like, wait a minute, you just said this. What do you mean? Um and then and then just the men's group would was just a realization that like it we're all going through it. Like we are all going through it, and to see these men that came from like literally like a banker to a teacher to a truck driver to uh a plumber, there was a guy that was always doing electrical, like he'd be on the calls while he was at work running electrical, and it's just like, yeah, so like all these average Joes are going through it, like every man is going through it, and just to have that reassurance that you weren't alone and that it's it is oh it is good. There's a group of there is people out there doing the work, normalizing it.

SPEAKER_02 57:22

Absolutely 100% because you do, especially in those hard chapters, you just want to like isolate yourself and be like, oh yeah, I'm dealing with this, so I'm gonna hide. When really it's we used to always be the opposite, you know, we'd have community, we'd have like our little tribe of people, communities used to gather, support each other, and it's just very much society's become kind of the opposite or made to feel the opposite when in reality everyone's going through the same shit, just like you said.

SPEAKER_01 57:52

And when I see when I see friends of mine that are putting up the facade and like just acting the manly role, and I just know I'm like, dude, you're hurting though, aren't you? Like you got hurting you that you that you will only bring out after several drinks, or you hide behind it with humor, or you know, and I'm just it's hard sometimes to be there for that person because you get there with them to a point, but they get uncomfortable fast and they change it and they change up what's happening, and you're just like, oh, you're so close, though.

SPEAKER_02 58:41

Yeah. Well, and it's like keep going because the other side's so much better.

SPEAKER_01 58:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:47

It's way lighter. You think that holding it in all Oh, you're so heavy. Oh, yeah, for sure. Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 58:56

That rain, eh?

SPEAKER_02 58:57

Do you want to go into our last little point of um alternating or shifting from one person being in a really good place while the other's maybe struggling or having some challenges. Yeah. Okay, so this is being, I feel like this is life. I don't we're maybe right now kind of on the same page, like in that middle ground, but it is incredibly challenging until you learn that that's just the rhythm of how things go. But when one person's like big energy, things are going well for them, thriving, and the other person's in a hard chapter, and how to navigate that, be the person who's doing really well and not getting like not feeling like you're not allowed to be there while your partner's struggling, but then also not being like frustrated and annoyed and jealous of your partner being in a good space when we're when you're in the low. It's challenging.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:11

Yeah. Yeah, it's not an easy one, and then it's frustrating just being when you do recognize it.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:20

So I know work has been one. We both own our own businesses. So there are seasons or chapters where my business is really busy and I'm doing really well and really proud of all the things that are that are going, and I'm and then you might be in a slower chapter. And so the financial piece, one of us is like feeling really good, and the other person's like feeling a little bit stressed out or whatever. And yeah, just being able to still celebrate yourself and also being the person who might be struggling and try to celebrate your partner, but also be sitting in your own shit. Um, I feel like it was the same when I started doing my counseling and I had a great group of friends, and I was like diving into some new training and stuff like that, and I was in a really good space. I was, I think I was working out, I was doing, I feel like I was doing all the things, getting up early, doing everything in a really good headspace, and you were just kind of trying to dive into yeah, finding your community.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:31

And when you were getting into your groove and doing great, like that was the moments where I didn't even realize what was happening with me. Like, that's about the time where my insecurities kicked in. Um, I was having like not an identity crisis, but I was having like uh I don't know what I need to be doing to keep this relationship alive. And like you said, you were like, I'm just gonna do my thing and trust.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:11

And I was like, Yes, I was in a headspace of very positive things all work out however they're meant to work out, and I was really truly at peace if our marriage worked, great. If it didn't, then it didn't.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:23

Yeah, and that the the confidence you had in like whatever happens, happens. That was terrifying for me because I was like, how can you just like your guys it almost felt like you were giving up, but at the same time you were working towards keeping it good. If that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:46

And it was just me letting go of control.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:48

That's well, that's what I that's what I noticed now, that it wasn't you weren't giving up, but you were giving up the control of what happens. Because it doesn't matter, like whatever does happen, happens. You can't control it. And I still was very deep into not liking the things that I couldn't control. Um, but eventually that changed, and once I started going to counseling, that was like just a breath of fresh air. Because it was. It was like, yep, focus on you. It was very important. That was like a very important thing that it was like you can't control the outcomes of things, so control what you can, and that's what you do.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:33

Um I feel like you had found your men's groups then too, had you not? Not yet. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:39

But I do remember I do remember coming in really hard once I did start doing it and doing the work and like focusing on myself and like working on a relationship. I came in like tenfold, like real heavy showing up all the time, being doing all the things, um, which probably wasn't the best because it got exhausting and it was hard to maintain.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:06

Um, I feel like that was a point in our relationship when you had that like tenfold of like, holy shit, I'm diving in full force. We met each other in this level that I'm always like, oh, I wish we could get back there, but it was just It's where we needed to be at that time to know, like, yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:27

Sustainable, no, no, it was like it was we were I was going to the gym every day, going to your classes every day.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:35

We would like make time to go, we do lunch. We did everything together, and it was like we made lots of time, and we were choosing ourselves over the kids in a like healthy fashion. The kids were seeing that, but um, it also reminds me though of this like place we've been and reminding myself that like a that's not a bar we always have to be at. But it was so good, achievable bar. It was so good to be there. I hope we didn't get it.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:03

It reminds me of like we were living the uh social media life, if you would look at it that way. Like the clips, I know, but it it's it's healthy way, like the clips and like the great things that everybody shares and influencers share on social media, be like, oh, this and everything was great, and we were like doing oh, going to the gym and oh all the work and the love. And if we were to have like condensed it into social media's chat, that's what it would have been like, but but it was legit, yeah. Oh, it was and it was all day, and it was just like a non sustainable thing, is what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:42

Like you were phoning me a couple times a day, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:45

Checking in, being knowing like this is what she wants, so I'm gonna do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:49

Yeah. Yeah. We were also in a different chapter, though. I think was I not homeschooling that year.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:56

You oh yeah, you might.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:58

I feel like I was because we had no phone. Family like structure schedule.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:02

No, that's right. You were home. We were homeschooled.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:04

And like that was, I've talked about this. This that was my like most freeing year of my life because I had no family schedule to manage, other than like we needed to do a couple hours of schooling a a day. My studio was slow, so I wasn't there a ton. I was mostly doing my inner work and doing like I think I was taking my somatic training, and I might have started to lead like some women's circles and stuff, but I had also found some new community too. So there was I was just feeling really supported and yeah, so the sustainability piece of that too, who knows what would change if we were back to the freedom of schedule and freedom of all of that. Yeah, it was really great. But then in saying that, and I don't know, did I cut you off? Were you gonna okay?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:53

I don't think so.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:53

Um, I was just gonna say that yes, I was in this really good point and you were doing your inner work, but before that, I was like going through diagnosis shit. Our son had had his diagnosis, I was living in fear of fucking everything going wrong. Um, I was trying to keep momentum with my business, but I was struggling mentally, and yeah, I would I had been in my lowest low, and you every day had had work to go to because yes, that was during pandemic. I started my counseling the like in the pandemic, I think. And um your business was busy, and I was home and struggling. So, like before me being in that place of our relationship where I'm like, meh, like it'll work or it won't, I was also in my lowest low, and you were in a really good place, I think, in life. Well, work-wise, probably work-wise, yes, not really which I think would reflect.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:05

Like, I think from a male perspective, if you're thriving in your in your work, it's a good reflection on how you're doing everywhere else in your um life on the outside, you know. It it looks as if, oh, you're th flourishing at your job, so you must be doing great everywhere else in your life.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:26

I think that's a big like men are driven that way though, too. So I think if work is going well, for sure, it ripples into because you're wired for providing and you're, you know, like Oh, I was saying that it's that's a falsehood, is what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:42

I'm saying like if people see you thriving in your business or in your work, they just automatically assume everything else is going great for you because that's typically where they see you where people focus on the m on m males. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is what they're providing for things. But how do you say that's not the choice or the side quest?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:11

How do you know outside of work then how other men are doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:18

I mean, aside from asking, you don't. And I mean, even if you ask, there's a good possibility they're just gonna say fine or good because everybody has problems and we typically don't want to burden anybody else with our problems.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:34

Well, and I think women are kind of the same. But I think what's really important is finding women who aren't just gonna let you like we'll hold space to hear you listen, but also normalize the things and not I I don't know if I talked about this today, but like if you're having if you're in a low chapter and maybe it's marriage stuff, and maybe your husband's doing really well, that you're not with women who are going to smack talk your husband or validate that yeah, he's a piece of shit, he should be doing more to help you out like that. I think that's so huge, and that now is a huge yuck for me because oof.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:21

I don't respect anybody that's gonna talk behind their their partner's back negatively about them.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:27

And it's that's something we're both really pretty firm on. And in saying that, this is where I've come in all of our relationship stuff, is I'm really grateful for the women in my life because the ones who are married and have done the work and are kind of in the same chapter, those are the ones I lean into the most when I'm struggling with something because I can say what I'm feeling. They don't take what I'm feeling and reflect it at you. They then hold space for me and kind of reflect back what I say and help me work through my shit and help to create support for our marriage versus none of my people will smack talk you. You know, it's like, oh, I hear you, and yeah, that's hard. And like, have you tried this? And maybe this would work, but it's never like down talking your partner because you and I generally say that like the person I need to go to when you and I have a problem is each other. And yeah, sometimes you need to vent, but hopefully those people that you vent to can just hear you and and we'll even just hear you or normalize or or validate your feelings, but then allow you to see that, like, okay, now I'm feeling better that I've processed this. I think that's so huge. I think that's why um you and I are kind of striving towards being able to hold space for couples with that and why I do that work with women, and I know your goal with being able to support men with that because you do, you need that. You need to find communities and people, and they're out there, and you need to, if you're feeling the same way that we've talked about, you need to make sure to find those communities. We've been in other countries, and you see the posters for men's groups or couple circles, and like those are so key and important because you're surrounding yourself with people who want to do better and want to hold space for everyone to feel heard and grow and yeah, make create healthy relationships. I know you've talked to me about just the like wife smack talk stuff too.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:50

Well, because I know that's an ick for you too.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:53

Yeah, I know I don't like it to hear other men badmouth their wives. It's like why are you why would you want to involve people into your personal life and disrespect your wife at the same time? I don't think it's acceptable, and I don't think your wives would appreciate it either.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:11

And well, and I think it's different if you're asking for advice. Like you've been through it and you're asking for advice, but if it's like just literally saying negative things to just validate how you're feeling or to confirm certain things, I don't think that's appropriate.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:31

I think if you have those trusted friends where you can be like, hey, my wife and I, we're going through this issue, we're going through a problem, I'm having a problem with her, this is what's happening. Like, have you dealt with this? Have you guys been through it? What have you done? How can I shift myself to meet her where she's at, or how can I start a conversation with her and not, you know, not have this hurt her feelings, or not have this um sound so negative to her. Like, what can I like? You definitely need to find a group of guys that you can do that with because not everything can be brought to your wife. Not right away. Not right away.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:11

It needs I need to have girlfriends to tell the same story too.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:17

That's I've heard this validated many times. It's important to have girlfriends, and I have I'm grateful I have friends that I can talk to about different aspects of my life because we're more relatable or we've gone through similar things. Yes, holy shit, I know you don't have the capacity, nor would I expect it to listen to me talk. I'm grateful for my friends that could be on the phone with me for an hour because sometimes we just need to talk about shit that you and I it's not gonna be fun for you and I to talk about, you know, or it's not gonna be interesting or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:53

Yeah, you definitely need your people, and I think men need men and women need men, and so back to not being on the same page all the time in a relationship when you and I aren't, how like if I'm if I'm in a low, how are you noticing that? And then like what kind of things are do you do to um help me through it instead of bringing me out of it, but help me through it that I might not necessarily notice? Like what kind of things are you doing that I wouldn't really pick up on aside from the hey hun, like I got you, like go take go go rest, or you know, I've seen you being in this for a little time. What are some of the things that I'm might not pick up on?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:46

Um, well, first of all, I always remind myself I need to let you be there because um I've learned that's so important. Like there's something you're supposed to be sitting with in those moments. Yeah, then that's the same thing. So a big one, yeah. So a big one for me though is giving you that space. And then I think just reassuring you and reminding you, like, if you need to chat, let me know. Um I'm probably annoying about this, but I like to share with you about like, hey, I think the universe is kind of inviting this and this, or reflect on this and this. Just I feel like I just like to support you by giving things to reflect on that I've had to learn in my life, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:34

I really liked the uh importance of the reassurance of like acknowledging that you're you're um that you see me going through it and being like, hey, I'm going to give you the space because I see you going through something, like acknowledging it verbally to the person.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:57

Um like I'm not avoiding you.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:59

You're not you're not just like you're not just giving me space, but you're letting me know why you're giving me the space because not just giving the space sometimes if I'm going through stuff, it might be relationship things, and if you're giving me the space, I might internalize that being like, what did I do? Yes, why is she being so distant? But if you come to me in a sense of like understand, be like, hey, I notice you're going through some things, you're kind of in a low place. I'm gonna give you the space as much as you need, you take it.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:32

Um do I do that?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:34

But I'll always be here. The reassurance of letting me know I do that that I'm in a low place. I recognize.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:42

Okay. I was like, I hope that you're getting that.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:44

Yeah. Um I think that's a very important piece though.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:47

Yeah, I would agree with you. Like, I'm not walking away or or around you to avoid it. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:53

And does it get exhausting us not being on the same page? Because I feel like Yes. I feel yeah, it does. Sometimes I feel like we we Chris, we we're in our highs and lows more than we're in that middle with each other.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:11

And I'm also grateful for that though. Because I think oof, when I'm in my low, I um imagine if we were both on our lows at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:26

Well, we have been. I know, I don't know. It's kind of nice sometimes, though, isn't it? Because it's like we get to hunker in. Our lows are almost like, this is just us. We get to both give permission to each other to do nothing.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:40

But like, we also do that without being in lows. But yes, I think the hard that's true.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:46

I was just gonna go back to when you're in a hard place. One other thing is that I get a little bit of like fire, and like I'm like, okay, it's my time to take charge, and it's my time to step up a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:04

That's annoying, I'll tell you.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:06

Well, it's annoying, it might be annoying, but it's also like lets me feel good.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:11

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:12

Because when I'm in my lows, I'm also annoyed. Yes, we both have talked about like, hey, just so you know, I'm super happy for you, but I'm fucking annoyed or jealous that right now things are going really well for you. Yeah. Like when financially, when you were doing really well, and I'm like, my business is hardly open because of pandemic shit. I'm like, oh grr. But also I know you got me, and like, but I do when I'm in my lows, it does motivate me a little bit because I'm like, ugh, he's doing good. Like, where am I? What am I how am I getting my way? What do I need to be doing to pull myself out of this a little bit? Um, because sometimes then I also will just ooh, and sometimes when I'm in my lows and you dial up and you do all the things, I get lazy. Especially with d disability stuff. I will be like, okay, that's off my plate. Until I start feeling like shit, because those are actually like getting up in the morning and doing the dishes. That might be the thing that fires me up. And if you're doing it, then it's like one little step I could take that can create some momentum that.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:24

So do I enable you sometimes when I take over? Because I know I know with your disability, I do tend to just take over things so that you don't have to do it as much. So, like, do you find when you're hitting your lows, if I'm not allowing you to do the things, not that I don't allow you to, but you know what I mean. Like I just take over.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:54

Yeah, no, I don't think so because I've also like I have ground rules about when I'm in lows, about what I'm allowed, how long I'm allowed to sit with my shit.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:03

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:03

Like my I my counselor and I were like, I had a two-day window in my darkest kind of chapter. It was like two days, but then it's like okay, and I have little things like a quick 20-minute sweep of the house. Those are like there are there are tasks in the house, and this is not in any offense, but there are things in the house that don't get done or aren't seen by anybody else except me, but they matter to me. And so, no, I know if I'm in a low, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna give myself 30 minutes, and you know me, I run on timers so that I don't get distracted, but like 30 minutes to tidy up the house or whatever the task is, I'll pick something that I know I need to do that will get me kind of a little bit picked up, feeling a little bit more together. Um, no, I don't think you enable me. I mean, as someone with disability, and I've had some great coaches that remind me like um you can do it. It just depends on where I'm at. There are days where I can't freaking do it. So I'm stupid because it's just gonna set me off. But no. Yeah, the highs and the lows. I think a huge, a huge takeaway from it all has been being able to say to each other, hey, super happy for you. Um, but I'm in a shitty head space and I'm jealous and kind of annoyed because then I think we can just meet each other with compassion and a little bit of different understanding.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:33

There would have been a time where I'd have been resentment and annoyed, and probably walked around the house not talking, and I mean I probably have days where I still am having an internal battle, but oh, just being able to Well, the other day even, like you got your head, and I I was like, hmm, did I do something and like it it was minor, or like did something not go right?

SPEAKER_02 1:23:02

Oh, was it just my like my metric shit that's come up?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:06

And I was like, did I I I was quick, I was like, that's why I came into the room and I was like, hey, what's the problem? Like, what's going on? Because I wanted if it was something I did, I wanted to know so I could either um fix it or like be like, oh, this is why, you know, this is what happened.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:27

Um I think from the weekend, and I was just dealing with some stupid medical shit that came up, super unexpected, put me off my routine and put me off track, and I was in a really good space. Um, I was just spiraling a little bit. I needed to have a big emotional release, and no, I appreciated you coming hold space for me. I was just literally when I went in our room, I was going to have a good cry. Yeah, and I was gonna journal. And then I realized my journal was in my office, and that also was like, are you freaking kidding me? It's not even in here. Uh but you do also when I'm in my lows, I will say, I, by default, will put myself alone, which is fine, because I need to process. I'll process, and then sometimes I'll reach out to a friend or I'll come talk to you. But um, you do a good job of like just making me not be alone in a way that like it might still annoy me sometimes, but I always know when you come in and I'm like, don't come in here. I'm thinking in my head, but then I'm also like, but yeah, you should probably come in here and we can have a chat. And we do that with the kids too. Yeah, it's like, hey, I'm just gonna sit here. We don't have to talk, I'm just gonna sit here because oof, that automatic feeling like you need to be alone to be with hard shit. And sometimes it's nice, but um, I think in our world it's just like don't show weakness, don't show anger. And even if that's not your intention, it's wired in us. Like, go hide out until you got your shit together and then show yourself again.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:08

Yeah, and you mentioned earlier about like you'd walk around maybe feeling resentment or jealousy when when the other person is in their highs. So for me, I feel them both. If if you're in your high, I feel annoyed and triggered by the joy and the excitement and the energy and just being like, ugh.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:33

Yeah, must be nice to feel that.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:36

And then when you're in your lows, you feel guilty. I feel guilty because I don't want to show my my highs and like how good I'm doing in the in that moment. So I I dial it back to a sense, even after you'd be like, go do your thing. Like, take the kids, go have fun, you guys go do you, and I'll be like, I know I do genuinely mean that you're I know you genuinely mean that, but it's a it's it's a like a me thing um to let go of of the concern or the the I guess the care that I have for you and your well-being, and just go do my thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:22

I wish you would just let yourself go do your thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:25

And I do, I do, but it's it's still I still have to really be like, it's okay. You're all she told you it's okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:34

Oh yeah, I know. I'm sure you do, but I think it's also unlearning kind of our mechanisms, right? Because there would have been a time where I'm like, go do your thing, but I'm saying it. But I really don't want you to. Yes. And now it's like I know what I need to sit with, or I like when we were in Bali even and I didn't want to go out and about that first day. I'm like, I was real good.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:59

I'm like, I know, and you know how hard that was because I would have honestly been like, wow, you're not gonna see me for probably six hours. And I would have made that scooter around the whole island and got lost, and like, you know what I mean? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:17

But and I wasn't in a low, just to clarify. I just was like, when we travel, I sometimes feel just like I feel my disability. I get anxious just about bat like finding bathrooms, and I don't want to hold people back, but I'm also real content, like even at home. Park me in the sun. Not literally park me. I'm not in a wheelchair. Put me in the sun. Put me in the sun and like give me an ice coffee and go. And a book. I'm good. But the other thing is like I'll text you or call you and be like, where are you at? Yeah. Give me a timeline. So I don't give me a timeline of I'll be back in an hour and then go a fun. For six hours because then I'll probably be like ugh.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:04

But it's because you were like, ooh, he'll be home in an hour. Well, yeah. Excited.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:08

Because I am like the little kid sitting at the window. That's just me. I love hard and I get excited about my people. But yes, when I when I say go have fun, I genuinely now mean go have fun. But I also now have trust with you. And I know that isn't gonna look like a sloppy drunken mess when he gets home. And and I do catch myself with that too. Like when you're in your highs and you're out and about, those aren't things that I worry about anymore. And that's a big shift. I I do sometimes wonder what would our marriage have looked like if we didn't drink when we had kids. That would have been interesting. But I uh I wouldn't change anything. I'm super grateful for Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:50

I don't know if I want to go dive that further back and be like, ooh, we were fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:55

Yes, we we were fun. It's not like we had fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:59

It's not like drinking when we drank, it was problematic every time. It just it brought up the things that we weren't comfortable dealing with so far. The true emotions.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:09

Yeah. Which I have now learnt to be with on their own. Yeah. So communication, huge. I think that's a starter for everything. Communication's so huge.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:28

And and if you can't get there right away, find somebody, a professional, preferably, that you can communicate with that gives you the proper guidance and advice and tools.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:42

Or just opens the door for you to voice. I remember after my counseling sessions being like we were going through hard stuff or business stuff or whatever it might be, and me being like, I can literally say anything. And my counselor is amazing, so amazing, but she is probably one of the few people I've worked with in like coaching or healing or anything that I have never felt like she's sitting there thinking, what is this chick talking about? Because I get blank looks, I have a lot of thoughts, I talk a lot, I do side quests, all the things, and she's never with anything I've ever given her, has she given me this look like judgy or high or I don't understand you? Yeah. So finding your people and finding whatever works. There's so many different techniques and relationships to get to that place of communication. I don't remember what the other things were we talked about. Our highs, our lows. Embracing that and expecting them and honoring them, and asking each other what they need from you, too. It's hard in the moment, but sometimes after those chapters, it can be like, hey, this was hard. And oh, I could have done this to support you a little bit better.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:58

Yeah, which I mean all comes back to communication.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:01

It does. I loved in that movie we watched the other day. What was it called?

SPEAKER_01 1:31:06

Uh like beautiful something.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:09

Beautiful bright creatures or something.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:12

Beautiful creatures.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:13

The sorry, was it an octopus?

SPEAKER_01 1:31:15

Yeah, it was an octopus.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:16

Okay, how he was like, I don't know why humans don't just say what they really mean. And I was like, holy shit. Yep. And then yeah, emotional availability, connection, doing your own work so you can hold space for each other.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:31

Those three big takeaways. Well, this won't be our last sit-down. I'm really grateful for you doing this with me.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:38

Thanks for having me on.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:39

I think it's I think it like I say, I it's for my own healing, and hopefully so that people can hear what's normal and versus the perfect and what's portrayed, right? Yeah. And and maybe it's just a nudge or a step towards a community, even if it's just the community that you listen to on the podcast. But um, yeah, we're out there, we're on the same page. And hopefully you feel a little bit heard, a little bit understood. And as always, I encourage to love fiercely and to land softly. And so thank you, Ellen.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:16

Thank you. And thank you to the listeners.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:19

Until we meet again, peace and love.