Memorates
Paranormal UFO UAP Supernatural
Memorates
Grant - Adelanto Encounter Pt. 2
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
This episode is part 2 of 2 accounts from two friends who witnessed anomalous lights in the night sky during a trip to Adelanto, CA. Here, Gillian's friend Grant provides a different perspective on the event.
Thank you for listening! If you have a story to share please email us at memoratespodcast@gmail.com. And don't forget to follow us on Instagram for show previews and updates and more!
So, you want to count to three, two, one?
SPEAKER_01And a three, and a two, and a one. I'm William DeWan.
SPEAKER_00And I'm Gillian Jackman.
SPEAKER_01We are the hosts of memories, where we explore the relationship between anomalous experiences and belief.
SPEAKER_00This is the podcast where the more we share, the more we remember. Hi Jillian. Hi, Bill. How are you? I'm good. How are you? Good. How's your week? Really, really good. Really good week. Yeah. I can't believe how fast weeks are flying now. Can you believe it's June already?
SPEAKER_01It's almost halfway through the year.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I'm I'm getting forward to looking forward to Halloween, which will be here, what, in a couple weeks at this point. You know? I mean, put your trees up at this point. Do you know what? Just don't take the tree down.
SPEAKER_01I think I've seen people who have used that strategy.
SPEAKER_00It's like no point.
SPEAKER_01And it's a huge pet peeve of mine just to Christmas lights up like in March. I'm like, you lazy bastards.
SPEAKER_00Bar humbug you.
SPEAKER_01But maybe some people just really feel the spirit of Christmas.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, speaking of spirits, we're not going to talk about spirits today, but I do have a really good story for you. So you and I have spoken, and um we have discussed how the Genesis of this podcast started, which was a story that you and I exchanged over dinner, which was a story that I had um of my own paranormal or bizarre, strange experience that happened when I was on a trip in the desert with a friend. And for those of you who haven't listened, you should definitely tune in to that podcast episode because it really is an in-depth uh account of what I experienced and how we kind of got here today and why we think it's important to share stories and remember them. And uh, today I've got a good one for you. So the other way around, um, we will switch roles. You know about the story, of course. Right. Um, but we're gonna have the opportunity to interview the person who is with me on the trip. Excellent. Um, his name is Grant, he's a really good friend of mine, and he will be calling in. So um I think we should go ahead and dial the number.
SPEAKER_01Let's see what Grant has to say. Excellent. Hello.
SPEAKER_00Hello. Hello. Hi.
SPEAKER_01I can't believe you picked up an unknown number.
SPEAKER_03I know. I don't answer just for anybody.
SPEAKER_00That's very true. How are you?
SPEAKER_03I'm very well.
SPEAKER_00How are you guys? I'm doing good. I'm good. Um so Grant, we would love today for you to share the event um that took place when you and I went on a trip in the desert. This was probably 2021, August 2021.
SPEAKER_03You're I'm gonna lean on you for some of those more like details. I that 20, I remember it was like peak COVID, which is one of the reasons why we like Epscon into the desert.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And Epscond is the right word. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So I'm so probably 20, probably like summer of 20 is my guess.
SPEAKER_00Summer of 20. Summer of 20 could be summer of 2021.
SPEAKER_03Could be. COVID lasted forever, so yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean it's still going, isn't it? Right. Yeah, good point. Um, so on this trip, you and I decided we were gonna go and rent a house, take a couple days off, go out in the outside, because we weren't allowed to do that at the time.
SPEAKER_02Exactly.
SPEAKER_00And take a trip where we could just unplug, we could have a nice dinner, we could look at the stars, we could get some good sleep, we could hang around.
SPEAKER_03This is like this is peak, everyone going crazy cooped up in their houses and their apartments.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03And we found this, or I found this little Airbnb that I don't even think is listed anymore, unfortunately. I actually looked a couple months ago. Um, and it's not like in a neighborhood, it's a it's one of these off-grid, it had no electricity, I mean it had solar, but it wasn't like on the city grid. It didn't have water. Um, so it really was like completely isolated. That was one of the cool things about it, is you would step outside of this little I don't know, shelter is too small a word, but house is certainly too big a word.
SPEAKER_01It's almost like camping.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's like it's like I mean, cabin is probably the closest thing that's true, except it did have a little bit like if they built a shower that used well water, which was gross. Um and there was there was like a half-assed kitchen, so it's not quite, it's somewhere between a cabin and a house. Um but it was great, it was awesome. It was completely isolated, there was no one in any direction for a million miles. I took my shotguns out there, so we could play with those. It was fun.
SPEAKER_00So let's let's go back and just let's start go back a bit for our listeners so they can understand and paint the picture before we got there. So you and I had arranged to meet at a certain time. You were already there, you wanted to do some writing. Um you went up there the day before. I recall distinctly, and just to paint the picture of how we got there, I think I got in my car around one in the afternoon, and you said to me, and this I remember distinctly, I'm going to have to meet you at the main road because you have to find this house by coordinates. And I laughed. And I said, Do you not know how to use your GPS?
SPEAKER_03I don't remember that, but boy, that sounds right. But boy, I believe it.
SPEAKER_00So I I will I will paint the picture then because I remember distinctly. I thought you were joking. And I got in my car around one, and we what is it up the 15, isn't it? I think you take you out of Los Angeles, take the 15, which is going northbound. Adelanto, correct. And it's the 15th century.
SPEAKER_03But it's going, I couldn't tell you the highway to get there. So yeah, I think it's the 15.
SPEAKER_00I think it's the 15. So I got on my car, I'm driving up, and you and I get close to time, you're like, call me, text me when you get about five, ten minutes away. And I said, okay. You're like, I'm gonna have to come and meet you. And then you're gonna have to follow me in to get to this house. So I get to this sort of very I don't know, California, CA something, they get very um nondescript after you've been driving in the desert for a while.
SPEAKER_03But it's like a county road, exactly.
SPEAKER_00But I can tell you it wasn't like a dual carriageway, and it doesn't ru I mean to say it was paved um might be an overstatement.
SPEAKER_03My memory is like the the turnoff is paved for a couple hundred feet and then it immediately becomes dirty and gravel. It's my memory, but again, it's been it's been a minute.
SPEAKER_00Right. So I got so I remember you you were like, okay, I'm gonna pull my cart and then you're gonna I'm gonna meet you at that turn-off. Right. So I meet you there, and then we drive into what is like you said, paved for a few hundred yards, and then it is just dirt.
SPEAKER_03Correct.
SPEAKER_00And it was really, really, really flat as far as the eye could see.
SPEAKER_03That will that will matter later, yes. Yes, good.
SPEAKER_00Get them in now, get them in now. Foreshadowing. Not a not a hill in sight. Not a hill in sight. In any direction. In any direction.
SPEAKER_03And we go for miles on this on a couple different dirt roads. Like it's really buried way out in the middle of nowhere.
SPEAKER_00So it's really buried in the middle of nowhere, and we are driving. It's hard to say actually how many miles we went down that road before. I remember when we took a left turn, and we took a left turn, and it wasn't there wasn't even a road there. And then we were navigating tumbleweeds and shrubs, small shrubs everywhere.
SPEAKER_03And there were places where the road had sort of been washed out at one point or another. And then now it's it's dried up again, so it's passable. There's a lot of us are driving like, you know, four-wheel drive trucks, we're just driving the cars. And we could do it, but it got a little hairy, so it did. It got a little yeah.
SPEAKER_00It did. And I remember and I recall um where I was driving behind you thinking, where is this house? Like I couldn't see a structure anywhere. And then all of a sudden, this building, very low one story, just sort of appeared on the horizon and you made a turn left, and then we were there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I recall we I was like, okay, this is something. Like, we really are off the grid. And I was excited about, and then um what made me laugh was the rattlesnake. Do you remember the rattlesnake?
SPEAKER_03I do. I was thinking about that today, actually. I was trying to like jog my memory for for all the things that happened out there, and that's the that's one of the very first things I remember.
SPEAKER_00And do you what do you remember about it?
SPEAKER_03It was gigantic. They had a little, so the the the little compound is like this little sort of fenced-in patio and and a and a cabin that's got a uh bedroom and a bedroom slash living room and a shower and a bathroom, and a little sort of kitchen that are all walled in by about six or seven foot tall fence, like like wooden fence you cannot see through, but it's very small, it's probably a thousand square feet, maybe twelve hundred square feet. And we I remember that we were it was like peak afternoon or in the evening, but the sun was still way up. You had just gotten there, and it was like, let's let's traips around the property and see what's out there, and we opened up the door to the fence to like sort of let us out into the the desert, and there's a rattlesnake just just coiled up in front of the door, uh and it was as startled to see us as we were startled to see it for sure, and it was it was pretty terrifying. It was it was uh like if we weren't paying attention, we would have just walked, we would just step right on it. Like it was and then we had this hilarious two Californians with a shotgun going like, should we shoot it? Should we not shoot it? Should we shoot it? Should we not shoot it? And I was like, fuck it, I'm gonna shoot. I don't know if I can swallow it. I said forget it, I'm gonna shoot. And by the time I like opened up the shotgun case and got the shell, it had moseied off into the middle of the desert.
SPEAKER_00And I was like, please don't fucking shoot it, because if you miss, it's gonna come back and get us.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. So it lived. It lived to see and it lived to scare the hell out of two other people on some other random.
SPEAKER_00It sure did, it sure did. But that was the the opening, the oeuvre of our trip of the desert. And things just got a little bit weird.
SPEAKER_03In my memory, that snake was like 12 feet long, which means it was probably two and a half feet long.
SPEAKER_00It means it was two and a half inches long.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, maybe. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Can I ask about a clarification? So, Grant, you're right first, you said, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. I was out there the day before. Uh so I spent a day and a night, and then Gillian joined me uh the for the next day.
SPEAKER_01And I'm assuming nothing interesting or strange happened that first day.
SPEAKER_03No, absolutely nothing.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00So we got there and then we started unpacking, and the goal was just to have a very, very nice dinner, enjoy the stars and talk and laugh. And that was really it. So um, so we made dinner, which was lovely. We had a steak.
SPEAKER_02Yep. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and then we lit a fire.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. We had a big bonfire.
SPEAKER_00We had a little fire.
SPEAKER_03So the bonfire is outside. So this little patio compound is all walled off, probably to keep the snakes out. But there's a giant fire pit outside of it. So we went out to the fire pit uh to throw some wood on and splash lighter fluid all over the place and be reckless. And it was really fun. And we must have been out there playing with the fire when I did not see what we saw first. You definitely did, and clued me into them. So I don't have like the the initial I looked up and I saw a thing because I was told to look up and look at a thing.
SPEAKER_01Okay, maybe we should proceed from there since we've heard Jillian's version of things. So can you just kind of maybe walk us through your you know, that moment and how you reacted afterwards?
SPEAKER_03So we're we're out of, we're outside, just kind of in the open desert. Um, there's no one in any direction for a million. And when you're out there, you know, you can see all the stars and everything. It's really awesome. Um and then my memory is Jillian is like, what are those? And I was like, what are you talking about? And it's like one of those Spielberg things where she like takes her head and like wrenches it around to look up in the sky. And I remember so this is gonna be here's what I remember. Um, I wanna kind of like I don't know. I've so I've listened to some of your guys', I've listened to the podcasts that are available that have been published so far. Um, and I I have a suspicion I'm gonna be the reigning champion skeptic for the people that you that you talk to and the stories that you tell. Um so I don't want to rain on parades, but I also am very skeptical. I I definitely we saw I'm not we actually saw stuff, but uh my take on it might be different than Jillian's, just to sort of put that on on the table.
SPEAKER_01That's fine by me.
SPEAKER_03So I look up and I see two or three hovering bright lights that seem to be a couple hundred feet away, maybe a couple thousand feet away. They're not super, super close. It's not like they're right on top of us. They're they're kind of off in the distance a little bit. Um and Jillian is like, what the hell are those things? And I'm immediately just dismissive. I'm like, what are you talking about? There's there's hills back there. We know that's not true. And and I'm trying to talk her into the fact that these lights are probably just like radio towers or something similar that's like on the top of these hills. But in the total darkness, you can't see the hills. You obviously can they look like they're hovering. And I don't know why I got so hell-bent stuck on the fact that there must be hills over there, and these are just lights on top of the hills. But I really for a long time I was really convinced that's what was going on. But they're these, I remember two or three of them. They were they were not super near each other, and they were they were kind of hovering about and kind of lazily moving about. They weren't like pulling off some of these crazy maneuvers that know other, you know, it's not like they dart a hundred feet this way and then immediately turn and go a thousand feet that way. They're they're pretty they're pretty stationary, and they're like pulsing. Julie, what I remember is that they're like pulsing from like the center is like becomes a bright light, and then they're almost like these little fingers in all directions spread out. Almost like a firework in slow motion without any sound. Just kind of this like this this quiet light expands and then it dips to nothing. And then ten seconds later, the center light appears and then expands in all directions. And for a slip second, it looks like kind of a firework, but it's it's identical every time. It's not something like a firework where there's there's chaos in the lights, and it's all it's every single time it's it's it's completely identical. It's clearly like a uh an object that is pulsing light on and off, on and off, on and off. And there's like three of them up in the sky. Um and then they start. I have a memory of like one of them starts to get closer. Um and it never comes like right on top of us, it never bothers us. Like, I don't mean it gets closer, like it starts to approach us specifically, it just starts to drift in our direction, as the is my memory. You left for a little bit, right?
SPEAKER_00So so what happened was is in my recollection of it, um, was I kept saying to you, Oh my god, what are they? What are they? What are they? We've got to find out. Well, let's go find them. What are they? What are they?
SPEAKER_03And then you got to the point where you spent a long time trying to convince you they're nothing. Yes. You're on top of a hill that does not exist. Yes, they were all on top of the hill. We finally got past that afternoon. We did.
SPEAKER_00And then you said, I'm going to bed.
SPEAKER_03That's that sounds right.
SPEAKER_00And then you were just done with it. I'm like, wait, you're just gonna go to bed? And you're like, Yeah, I'm going to bed. And you went to bed. And then I stayed out there, and then that's where I really, really got involved, and I took, I would say, what, maybe two hours of footage, and I got my camera on my camera phone.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I propped it on the fence that you were talking about.
SPEAKER_03I remember. I remember coming back out and seeing you. Like, I remember sort of periodically checking on you and seeing that's what you were up to.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_03Um, yeah. And I've since obviously seen the videos you took, and I'm trying so hard to divorce what I know is on those videos versus what my actual memory of that night is. So I'm trying. I I'm really trying to like remember what I remember and not just remember having seen your videos of the next day.
SPEAKER_01Which is hard, which is hard to do.
SPEAKER_03It is, it's very hard to do. And that and then and and that like my description of the light and the way it's pulsed. I could easily be remembering the way it was captured and photographed. Like, that's the way it appears on the phone screen, maybe more than like I'm really I'm really trying to parse my memory. But my memory is of that kind of the light starting in the center and like expanding out in all directions. Julian, does that match your memory or am I full of it?
SPEAKER_00Well, you have to listen to my version on the podcast to find out. Oh, I guess so.
SPEAKER_03Fair enough.
SPEAKER_01Quick grant one question there. Uh any colors?
SPEAKER_03You may mention this part, not, but uh uh no, warm, warm bri white light. Like not that cold blue LED light, more like incandescent light, that kind of color temperature, but but white. Your typical white light. Gotcha.
SPEAKER_00So after you went back in and then maybe periodically checked out to see if I hadn't been abducted, um I then stayed out there until the sun came up. So I was out there for I would say three hours.
SPEAKER_03Oh, I was out cold eventually.
SPEAKER_00Like I was if we were having wine and dinner, we probably were up until one. That's typically kind of you know our maybe time for bed time.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we're not so young anymore. Oh, unless there's UFOs to investigate apparently till the sun comes up.
SPEAKER_00Um and then, yeah, so I I was out there for about three hours on my own, just filming them.
SPEAKER_03Did you drive after them or did you stay put at once?
SPEAKER_00I did not get in the car and drive anyway.
SPEAKER_01Well then I retract. Do you hear that, police?
SPEAKER_00It's well, we at the time when we were out there together, I was convinced that we could drive and go and find them because when they first having this, I remember we talked about this and we said, but then I was like, we don't even know where these roads aren't even roads, and God knows where they go. That's the thing. Where were we we're gonna drive into you know what, a Joshua tree or a big bush and get stuck? Because there was no there were no roads to to be.
SPEAKER_03Look it up, we made one wise decision.
SPEAKER_00That was the wise, that was the wise decision I've probably ever made in my life.
SPEAKER_03And then the next morning, we I remember doing you know a whopping five seconds of research on my phone, and there's a there's an Air Force base very, very near, like within 20 miles. Um and to me, that's like that's it. Like like I I undeniably we saw stuff in the sky, and undeniably it was not a natural occurrence. It was made by you know, an intelligence. I would be pretty adamantly arguing a human intelligence. And I think the I think by far the most overwhelmingly straightforward explanation is it's just military tech from this Air Force base and and they were out doing tests or drills or or or whatever, and and we just sort of could see it from a distance. That that to me is is I have a hard time not thinking that's what it is. Um but I know that makes me sort of a stick in the mud, which is it is not my intention.
SPEAKER_01Well well, Grant, just to be clear, our our aim here is not to promote or or debunk. Um it's really just how you experienced it, how you remember it, and the the effect it had on you, whether you believe or or you disbelieve. So that's perfectly fine. And it's an interesting, you know, contrast.
SPEAKER_03It did have a it had an interesting, I I I can readily admit that I the next day I went outside in daylight. First of all, I was gobsmacked that there were not hills. I looked around and I was like, you've got to be true. And so that really, in a very, very, very small way was like a tiny little bit of like, don't be so snug about the things you think you know, because sometimes you don't know what the hell you're talking about. And in that one instance, boy, that turned out to be true.
SPEAKER_00Um but it's the only time that's ever happened in your life, so only time in my life.
SPEAKER_03No, no, and and then like and then and then immediately following that was while I still absolutely would testify in a court of law that I I believe firmly that those things came from that Air Force base. I will admit that like looking around and seeing that there were no hills immediately like raised suspicion in me. Like I immediately was kind of disappointed in myself for so easily being certain that I'm like, ah, that's nothing. Don't like don't even what are we even wasting our time for, yada yada yada? Because the thing that I thought it was obviously wasn't, as soon as I see that there are no hills there. So suddenly the question becomes like, oh, how much of what I thought I was certain about am I was I wrong about? So that is a real feeling and a real impulse. However, I'm pretty sure I'm right.
SPEAKER_01Well, aren't aren't we all?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_01So what's interesting here is so you talked about in your memory, two to three objects hovering. You said lazily moving, mainly stationary with the pulsing, the strange, kind of almost slow firework finger kind of thing. So you you never saw anything move, like dart around erratically that.
SPEAKER_03maybe like a a drone you know would wouldn't account for no not that i not that i remember um no they were my memory is that they were almost i mean obviously they weren't because they're in the air but like they they moved as if they were almost floating in water like that kind of like lazy on a current kind of drifting sort of back and forth in in small little areas is how they seem to be moving to my eyes and I think what I would definitely agree with in both of our accounts is when we first saw them they did appear to be doing just that but as the night went on things really changed.
SPEAKER_00Oh and so my video footage is really the only piece of if you call it evidence that can support what I was seeing because I remember them darting around and moving very quickly off to the left and not in the beginning not when we first saw them but as time went on almost like there was some sort of performance element. They were waiting for the skeptic to go to bed. That's right.
SPEAKER_01Maybe he always skeptic go to bed start party the party always gets better as soon as the skeptic smug guy well actually at it well Grant how long do you think you watched this before you actually went to bed you have an estimate an hour?
SPEAKER_03Okay so you were there we were probably out there together for a while. I mean we we think about those non-existent hills for too long. We did we are well we love to argue and debate so we were probably I would guess an hour like as soon as they appeared they really occupied Jillian's attention um and so so we were kind of like well this is where we're gonna spend the rest of the night is staring at these things because look at look at look what just entered the entered the conversation and after about an hour I was like alright I've seen it like I I've seen it and I know that it's just lights on the hill I'm going to sleep. Yeah exactly yeah so I think I think I was out there about an hour would be would be my guess.
SPEAKER_01And but in your mind you feel that they were under intelligent control?
SPEAKER_03Oh oh definitely they I feel I feel they were intelligently created by uh they're they're not a natural phenomenon and they were being uh uh uh controlled manip maneuvered by by someone as well the the they weren't just like like drifting in the wind as if they weren't being controlled they were definitely being controlled and what were your uh feelings on the UFO topic in general prior to the incident afterwards um I I am of two minds I am one of those people that if you just sort of have a fifth grade understanding of the universe which is about what I would claim I have it sure seems way way way too big. That's generous IVA yes it really isn't it yeah I gave myself a couple uh a couple graduations in between yeah you did like like the the probability that we're the only life forms out here is just completely nonsense like it's almost impossible to believe that that could be true. Um I also don't think that any intelligence that would be smart enough to get here is dumb enough to be observed by where we currently are in our evolution of understanding of things like science and physics. The amount of the amount of control over physics and science it would take for an intelligence to travel to here from a place that's a way that we can't observe them would be so far beyond our understanding of physics and science that to allow us to see them would seem foolish. They would be like ants in an ant farm trying to determine the you know the zoo keeper that's a million miles away on the other side of the zoo. Like like like our our perspective is so small and the perspective that it would take to intergalactically travel is so big that it just it's the disparity in those intelligences I can't imagine they're also crash landing in Nevada or are being or are coming down and like kidnapping people like like the there's a there's a there's a point at which my my skepticism takes over. So that is and and and and I feel that way pre and post even though I absolutely will own up to having witnessed a thing that I cannot explain. Like I I I I think the simplest explanation if we were to ever find out would be the Air Force bases right there obviously but I don't I don't know that. There's no way to know that that's true. And so I'm absolutely someone who experienced an unidentified object that was flying. Like there's no there's no there's no question.
SPEAKER_01Is there any other explanation you've entertained beyond you know uh project from the air force base or alien spaceship?
SPEAKER_03I mean there are all there's always you know like the hobbyists who just built a thing and sent it up into the air to play with it one night. I just because it's so close to the air force base I I find it hard to believe that a third party of any sort whether it's whether it's just a bunch of idiots out in the desert or it's or it's a bunch of physics professors who are not like like whatever it is it because it's so close to that air force base I just I imagine that air is so heavily patrolled um that I find I find the the the least likely explanation frankly is a just a kind of casual civilian who decided to send some lights up on a balloon or whatever. I don't think that passes the smell test given that they're likely doing that w within like protected US government airspace which is probably asking for trouble.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03Well that makes sense ever read any books on the subject no not that I mean not not nonfiction books. I mean you know I've torn through a bunch of Stephen King books in my life with a bunch of fun like science fiction genre and all but I've never like dug into to the nonfiction side of this I know very very little um and I know a lot I know a lot has my I have a brother who is more interested in this than I am and he he is very aware there's been a and I'm sure as are you guys there's a a ton of stuff that I don't know that I've not followed closely in the last couple of years that is getting declassified and that is making its way uh in testimony in Congress, making its way to the public and their outlets you know like the 60 minutes of the world are taking it more seriously. That is that is a world I am not steeped in um but I I know it does exist and it is and it is becoming it is being mainstreamed more than it ever has in my life at least from a million miles away looking at it. Again I don't I don't follow it super closely.
SPEAKER_01And would you describe yourself as as skeptical towards religion as well?
SPEAKER_03Yeah yeah yeah yeah I'm I I think you could describe me as skeptical towards anything that can't be proven um I I I I would like to fancy myself open minded like trust but verify is sort of the the model like I'm proven in the empirical sense right correct correct correct I I think claiming to know something that can't is unprovable in either direction is silly. So I will never claim to 100% know that that those are Air Force things that we saw. I will also never claim to know that they are not like I don't I have I'm very comfortable saying I don't know but my suspicions are blank. And I sort of apply that across the board I don't I'm not a religious person. I don't know if there is a a a higher presence in the world but I'm I'm skeptical but I but I don't know. I'm open to being wrong. I'm I'm very I'm stoked to be wrong.
SPEAKER_00What if remove the air force base um from the equation what do you think you could make a or surmise that it was I mean that's an impossible that's an impossible task.
SPEAKER_03That's like take the aircraft carrier out of the equation where do those missiles come from it's like well they came from the aircraft area that's parked off the coast that launched the missiles. Like I I don't I don't I don't know what to I mean you I I understand the point of the exercise like sure enough if that Air Force base wasn't there this would be remarkable but boy that Air Force base is right there. So I think I still I'm still I was still very remarkable I just I would be singing it uh a uh a slightly different tune probably if that air force base wasn't so close.
SPEAKER_00Do you think that you need to that do you think you need to anchor it onto something? Can it not just be an experience that you experience and not have an explanation or do you think your need for rationalizing and maybe putting things into context of having meaning or understanding is that's a good that's a good question.
SPEAKER_03I don't feel compelled that I must have an explanation for it. I'm very comfortable with the idea that we saw some things and I can't explain them. What I the reason I'm so quick to go to the Air Force thing is I think as almost like a preventative measure against people who would be so quick to go in the other direction. Who would say oh oh you definitely you definitely experienced the paranormal thing and I'd be like well did I Air Force base giant elephant in the room which is an Air Force base 15 miles away. Right it is it's a big elephant elephant in the room. Yeah like it's a monstrous elephant I would I would argue at least for for my for my thinking um so so my my compulsion to sort of uh uh reference that is is simply almost like as a preventative measure against people us making the assumption that there there is no good logical explanation for what we could have seen other than something paranormal um because boy I would argue there is a very good possibility possible explanation we'll never know and I'm and again I it's I think it's obvious both what side I'm leaning on but I hope it's also obvious that I'm very comfortable admitting I don't know it's not it's completely uncertain. It's just pro it just seems probable to me.
SPEAKER_00Right. So do you think now since that experience that when you are in the a similar environment or when you I mean we live in California there's plenty of vast open spaces and deserts and you know national parks where you can look at the sky and just be at one with the stars have you do you look now and are you looking in a different way are you open to maybe seeing do you look to see something uh no to everything you said except the open part I I was am and remain open to to anything uh I just need some sort of evidence in order to personally believe it's not a like a good a good old fashioned hill that doesn't exist.
SPEAKER_01I'm blaming that on the two bottles of Ruin Art Drawing so uh so Greg you would say this this experience really hasn't changed much of anything in how you view any of this uh no I mean this and this may seem uh shallow or surface but like I mostly I just find it neat.
SPEAKER_03I just think it's kind of cool that that we that we saw these things uh that most people have never seen I suspect i i if my theory is right that there's some sort of like cutting-edge military tech and most people haven't seen them and if if a more porn paranormal explanation is right then holy hell most people haven't seen them uh so I f I find it really interesting like I find it a cool thing I got to experience something that's a very rare uh experience that that most people on this earth will not have had which I think is really cool um but it does but it hasn't like broadened my horizons into believing paranormal things that I didn't believe before that now I believe are possible after.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_03So one of the things we're gonna do sorry go ahead no no no go ahead please oh I was gonna say so so therefore I I refer I ref that's where the sort of stick in the mud like like self-label comes from like I I went through this thing and it was fascinating and my takeaway is like wow that was neat that we saw something made by humans like that.
SPEAKER_00An Air Force space 15 miles away.
SPEAKER_01Yeah which I think is cool.
SPEAKER_03And we're referring to Edwards Air Force Base by the way yes correct correct which I've also done absolutely zero research on to be fair so I don't you know if tomorrow we find out they haven't launched it that they they for some reason don't have the capability to put anything in the air from Edwards Air Force Base which seems crazy then that would also change my tune.
SPEAKER_01My understanding is they they do with a certain amount of regularity there. So with with with with test craft and flights kind of what things they're known for.
SPEAKER_03So right right right now the the taking it out of the paranormal and just keeping it in the purely uh um terrestrial uh I've never seen anything like we saw at an airport or at a in the movies like like what we saw was truly a new kind of aerial phenomenon to my eyes like it was I I'm not being I I assume it came from the Air Force base, but boy it's something new. Like I'll like I'm I'm eager to admit that it was very very interesting. I'd never seen anything quite sort of move the way like the way it sort of drifted around um very casually but also very clearly being controlled and the way the lights were pulsing like it was all it was all new stuff to me which also I thought was kind of cool. So e even compared to to drones yeah I mean I'm I'm not the leading world drone expert by any stretch. I I don't know much about drones but they sort of they don't they it didn't look like a winged aircraft of any sort like it like like its shape was jellyfish ish is probably the the best I could I could comment also there was no no I recall it being then there was no noise. You know what great point I I agree and and uh there actually was no noise at all.
SPEAKER_01It was a still night you couldn't hear any you could hear a pin drop honestly you could hear and and in the desert sound really travels like I they did seem close enough that we would have been able we would we should have been able to hear something if they were being uh uh powered by anything that I'm sort of used to in the world like it like it didn't there if an airplane was that close we would have heard it if a helicopter was that close we would have heard it like forced if a drone was that close we would have had it likely yeah anything bigger than like your sort of fifth grader and his and his little toy drone absolutely um and so yeah I forgot that's a good point I totally forgot about that they're totally silent which which is interesting and and a little scary frankly and Grant another question I have and I think I know the answer to this have you ever had anything inexplicable happen in your life that you couldn't explain outside of UFOs whatever I have not um I have a couple family members that have stories of of pretty insane coincidences that sort of they would urge you to believe that that they're that there's sort of have been inner like there's been some divine intervention but none none of nothing that's personally happened to me specifically.
SPEAKER_03So no I am and I don't you know I I don't know do most of the people you guys talk to who have experienced something like this also have experienced other phenomenon in their life other paranormal things in their life is that a is that a common thing?
SPEAKER_01In my research people are more likely to have multiple experiences yes um and it's some some sometimes the same you'd say you know phenomenon whether it's UFOs or ghosts or what have you but oftentimes a combination of and it's probably I'm sure there's an element of how open you are to it is how like if Jillian wasn't out there and I was out there by myself the second night I might have glanced up seen these lights and like ah something's on a hill and then I will literally would never have thought about it ever again.
SPEAKER_03So so there is a function there is a a point of just how much are you willing to to experience these things slash how curious are you about the things around you before you just chalk it up to something that's easily explained. If I was out there by myself I would I would have never in a million years spent a lot of time looking at these things and or let alone what Jillian did which is taking videos and wanting to chase after them. I just would have glanced up seen some some lights and been like oh there's something on the hill up there I'll I'll check it out in the morning and gone on with mine and completely forgotten about it.
SPEAKER_01Really interesting point there too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah really interesting and so um do you think post show one of the things we're gonna do after we um launch and go live with my account and then your account to follow uh we've decided we're gonna put some of those videos up for everyone to take a look at so I'm curious you haven't seen those videos in what four years maybe I mean yeah I don't think I've seen them since you took them right then oh wow so it'll be interesting to see your reaction love to have you engaged um on Instagram and please scrub those videos for anything horrible that I might say in the background and what is that hill over there?
SPEAKER_03That's just the hill yeah well and Grant we also invite you to be the resident skeptic troll in the comments when those videos are posted to you you always need that guy you know yeah just as long as you go to bed early so we can have a party after no I I mean it I mean it when I say it like I I I don't while I believe one thing and Jillian I'm sure believes another I also I'm it's very possible I'm completely wrong and she's completely right and it's very possible she's completely wrong like I'm totally open to all things.
SPEAKER_01And that's that's really all any of us can say right if if we're actually being truly agnostic and skeptical that doubt you know should like permeate all of our perspectives.
SPEAKER_03Oh a hundred yeah a thousand percent otherwise you're not being skeptical at all you're just being certain in your opposition which is annoying unnecessary all right brilliant brilliant thank you so much yeah I hope that gets you I hope that gets you what you need or what you were looking for.
SPEAKER_00No we'll just call you back in 30 minutes and do it lower again. Yeah yeah I hope I'm not raining on your parade Julian no that's not there's no parade to be rained on no we're really sharing just an experience that two people were there and witnessed and two different accounts which is not something we are afforded with all the people that we interview. We're hoping that there is a way to do that with some of the people we interview.
SPEAKER_01And Grant really that that's what I want more of I want more people who've had shared experiences that come to either similar or fundamentally different ideas about what they've seen and how they interpret it.
SPEAKER_03Gotcha I mean I will say one of the one of the takeaways is is uh I have thought about this a lot over the years like every like it it will enter my mind like more than most things that I have just sort of been more than more than most things I am skeptical about I'll say it that way like I there's a whole universe of things that I raise an eyebrow and I don't know what the hell and and I think about this all the time. I don't know what that means. I don't know if that means anything but boy it it it it left an impression even if uh it didn't convince me of anything.
SPEAKER_00And I think that's that's really important as well to to share is that even though you don't have an exclamation for it it definitely had a lasting impression on you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah 100% yeah and now I have to go rent a hundred bulldozers and make hills outside of other water.
SPEAKER_00Just like we write the things we do to make the world better narratives right oh my god amazing well thank you Grant um really appreciate you coming the show um and thanks for the time and um yeah I can't wait to put those videos up post show and then we'd love for you to dive in and give us all your skepticism you know how many hills were there we could do like a spot the hill kind of competition. But again thank you really really appreciate your time.
SPEAKER_03Thank you Grant no problem.
SPEAKER_00All right have a good evening bye guys bye so there we have it's very interesting interesting how I like looking at bad art yeah I guess interesting is not a very helpful word it can be if you're looking at bad art you don't want to offend anyone you made that oh good for you so interesting.
SPEAKER_01It's like bad feedback on a podcast. Oh it was very interesting yeah wow I'm gonna listen to the next one so I'll say a couple things here um I found it very interesting how he was almost apologetic about his skepticism and it's like I'm sorry I have a different perspective it's like I you know and I think really for for those listening the point of this podcast again is not to promote belief or disbelief. I think it's interesting to me uh our reactions to the things that we experienced and the impact our prior beliefs or or disbelief it's maybe has on that and so I think what I I love about this incident is obviously he's coming into this uh steeped in more of a skeptical worldview. Not that you were you know in a mind but open to all kinds of belief or or or whatever prior to this incident. But first of all, you had a much longer experience than Grant. So he was only there. He does not recall seeing anything, any erratic movements Which you did. He reports two to three lights. You said I think upwards of five or so. And his he's and he describes them as being just pulsating, maybe lazily moving, uh with a kind of like a he said that the slow firework type of thing, uh but still something he didn't associate with, like, you know, drones. Um and what's also interesting there is, you know, his obviously his his mind turns towards the Air Force Base, which again, that is, as we said, that is an elephant in the room there, Edwards Air Force Base. There we talked about that in your episode as well, too. Uh but he so his experience overlaps with yours, but certainly yours has expanded. And again, I am curious to see uh his reaction to the videos that we post as well as as well as the viewers as well. Now the other interesting thing is you both have talked about this afterwards. And it's you know, what what intrigues me is he did see the videos afterwards, a while ago though, and one does wonder how much and how little those videos then have played a role in his memory. So as we've talked about, our memories are reconstructions of these past events. And what he reported and what you reported, even with the video in mind, isn't necessarily going to match up if we were actually to be able to teleport right back to that incident. And so you, the experience had a more, I think, well, had a profound effect on both of you. You know, for him, it was like this is wild that the Air Force has this technology, which is, you know, again, a very interesting, you know, outcome for whereas you, it's something maybe a bit more anomalous, not associated with the Air Force itself. You are more versed at this point now in UFO lore and literature than grants. That's also going to affect how the two of you, you know, interpret these events, but also then how you look back at your own memories. So fascinating to me, a shared experience with two different reactions in the moment, but certainly interpretations afterwards.
SPEAKER_00But I think we want to be mindful too of the dynamic in our relationship with friends as well. So we do need to consider that his account may sound like he's debunking my account. And so therefore, his apology or his apologetic kind of in like tonation may just be simply because he doesn't want to it to sound like he's such a skeptic that he's debunking my account of it. So I think we have to be mindful of that too. We are friends. The last time that he actually saw the video was the next day when I showed them to him. That's five years ago now. So it'd be interesting to see when we do post them post-show how he interprets them and uh what connections he can make between what his shared experience, which to his own admission is, you know, probably a little bit patchy in some parts, as is mine, and and how the actual footage will maybe validate or uh um reinforce some of the things that he saw or didn't see.
SPEAKER_01And one has to wonder if he stayed up the entire time with you, would he have a similar interpretation or would he have a different narrative? Um yeah, so I I think what's another interesting element to this is we we talk about a a need to believe and how these experiences can certainly reinforce that belief. But as I've talked about and as I'm you know writing about right now, there is also a need to disbelieve, and that certain experiences we can't explain can really rock our worldview, uh whatever it is that that we that we happen to believe in. And you know, people who describe themselves as being skeptical, that they're not immune from that as well, too. And there can be a tendency to want to quickly explain things away that we're unsure of or uncertain about for that very reason. Now, there may be an element of that to Grant's narrative, but I also think to be fair to him, uh he's he's open about that, and I think he's really doing his best to take on a truly skeptical approach and in looking at these things. I I genuinely feel he is open to being wrong.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Which is not always the case.
SPEAKER_00No, and I and I think also too, that's why the question that I asked him was take away the Air Force, and then how do you, you know, how do you talk about that experience? And he's like, well, that's like saying, you know, the the you know, taking the battleship and asking where the missiles came from. Again, I think that's a really interesting question because it's easy, it's the almost the need to not disbelieve something, but even if you are unsure of what you're seeing, to have to rationalise it. I think rationalizing is a way that we can get to disbelief in a way, is because we need a reasonable explanation to get there, and then that can seem like disbelief because it pushes you in the other direction away from thinking that yes, it could be anomalous, it could be something you know, otherworldly, non-terrestrial. Right. So it's a fine line that you're walking almost, right, between being a staunch skeptic and then maybe being somebody who's a you know proponent for yes, there are things in the sky we can't explain, they're not from the Air Force space.
SPEAKER_01Uh and you know, as we said, I think it's a good point. It's hard to remove the Air Force space element from it. Of course, of course. Um, but what I also found interesting is that when he talks about why he leans towards explanation, he also brought up familiar things we hear about alien life. The distance between stars, for instance, how much time and energy that would take. I think he also references, you know, why would they want to show themselves to us. And again, I think I see those as fallback explanations time and again for people addressing the subject with a very specific idea of UFOs, but also if I were an alien, this is how this is how I would do it.
SPEAKER_00So it's an emic response to to a situation where you're looking at it through the lens of how you would approach it versus we have no idea how other, you know, alien life forms would approach it. We we don't know that.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00We don't know that.
SPEAKER_01It's like why wouldn't they land in the White House long? It's like, well, I can think of a lot of reasons why they would not.
SPEAKER_00I'm not going to Washington.
SPEAKER_01But also there's there there's also like again, it's it's hard to get out of thinking like a human being.
SPEAKER_00Of course it is. It's the only way you can think.
SPEAKER_01It automatically means alien who've who's arrived here recently and who does not want to be found out by humans because we're not deserving of being or interacting with them. And those are all some very, very interesting sort of assumptions and ideas that kind of go into that mindset.
SPEAKER_00But I think those also come from the way they were mediated. I think it's from the you know, pop culture from movies, from books. That all comes from somewhere. You know, what if you never read a book, never saw a movie, and you were in the desert and you had that experience? How would you rationalize it? What if you were just what did I'm sure there were things that you know in our ancestral, you know, distant past that that was witnessed, how was it explained? It'd be interesting, right?
SPEAKER_01We're talking about the possible origins of religion itself, right? Absolutely experiences we cannot explain.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01And so, you know, the UFO is just another label on that continuum, um whether we believe or or disbelieve.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I think from both perspectives, there's a lot of revealing stuff here. And I'm saying I love accounts like this, I love shared accounts for that very reason. Of course. But also how what we bring into an experience is just as important as what we actually see.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and also too, I think it's you know, we watch enough true crime to know that we see two people's accounts of witnessing the same thing, they're always very different.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Always very different. Always very different. So it's you draw on things that you understand and you draw on things that make sense to rationalize something that happens to you. Um your worldview is definitely part of that and how you construct that. And an experience like this can do one or two things. It can, you know, reinforce your worldview, which is why we have religions, or it can, you know, dismantle it in some ways and ask you to look at things in a different way.
SPEAKER_01And it's always much more I hate to use this word, but traumatic for us with the latter.
SPEAKER_00Of course.
SPEAKER_01So, which is why much of what we experience we will look at in a way that reinforces what we wish to be true, whatever that we happen to leave about the world.
SPEAKER_00He loves me. Yeah. He loves me not.
SPEAKER_01Oh boy, time for the therapy.
SPEAKER_00Brilliant. Well, that was a great one.
SPEAKER_01That was great.
SPEAKER_00Um, really enjoyed it. Thank you. And what happens is the more we share, the more we remember. So true. So true. Until next time, thanks for listening, everyone, and we'll tune in to you guys next week. That wraps up this episode of Memorates. Please be sure to follow us in all the social medias. And in the meantime, if you or anyone you know has a story you'd like to share with us, please email us at memorispodcast at gmail.com.
SPEAKER_01And special thanks to our editors, Jonathan Sanders and Chuck Church. Our theme music is composed and performed by Chuck Church and Sarah Still. And last but not least, a special studio shout-out for the Mesco Cash.
SPEAKER_00Thanks again, everyone, for listening. And please be sure to tune in next week.
