The Birth I Pictured, the C-Section I Got, the Mother I Became

Most birth plans don't happen the way they're written. In our first episode, Camille, host of The Kind of Bold podcast and one of Erin's first doula clients, shares her unplanned C-section, including the moment in the OR when she had to choose between holding her son or seeing him, and the postpartum anxiety she lived with for years before it had a name. We talk about matrescence, the love-and-grief paradox of becoming a mother, the failure of postpartum care to screen the birthing person for mental health, and the kind of postpartum support that should be standard everywhere. If your birth didn't go the way you pictured, or if you've ever felt like you lost yourself in motherhood, this one's for you. 

Rooted Family Wellness Centre

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

My son's heartbeat started going down and it was dangerously low. That's why they they said they strongly recommended a c section in that moment. But for many, many years after that, I wondered what if I had pushed through and and not yeah, decided to get the c section, what would have happened? Maybe I could have had a vaginal birth.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

Today on the podcast, we're joined by Camille, host of the Kind of Bold podcast, where she explores the expectations shaping women and how we push back and lead with kindness. In this episode, Camille shares her personal journey through pregnancy, birth, and postpartum, including both the beautiful and the challenging moments. We discuss her C-section and some of the real challenges of early motherhood. Our hope is that you feel seen, supported, and a little less alone as you listen. Let's get into it. Thanks. Thanks for being here, Camille. Oh, you're welcome. Thank you so much for having me for context for everyone. I was uh a birth dual for Camille. Uh she was one of my first clients. So I think I feel a special connection to you. Um, just in so special tonight. Yeah. It turns out my dual career and just how, you know, how your birth unfolded. And just like I appreciate how open you you are and have been about your birth and kind of the transitions into motherhood. I think you do a really good job of kind of unpacking the realness of it. So I'm really excited about the conversation. Um, I'm wondering if though you can take us to like your pregnancy. Maybe we start there and like how how was that for you? Maybe, yeah, how you journeyed into this motherhood journey um in your career.

SPEAKER_03 1:41

Yeah. I I think I had no idea what I was getting into. And I had no idea. And I I read a lot of books uh while I was pregnant. I wasn't too much on social media at the time. I actually discovered social media when I had my son. Like I discovered, so it was back in 2017, which is not that long ago, but seeing how fast you know things progress.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Things are changing.

SPEAKER_03 2:07

At the time, I think I had just I just started an Instagram account. So I just discovered that whole world then. But so during my pregnancy was mostly books and and just talking to people. And so I approached this in a very pragmatic way, right? And and that's just how I am. I'm very organized, very type A, you know, to-do lists. So I had prepared for this as I would with any project, anything that I do at work, right? Making sure everything is ready for the baby. Didn't really think about what it meant for things to be ready for me. But everything was definitely ready for the baby. Um, and I had a I had a really good pregnancy from a medical standpoint. Uh, but I have had health anxiety since my childhood. And so while I did recognize that having a midwife perhaps would have been a better, more personal experience. I had to have a doctor. That was for me. Like I just I had to be at the hospital. I was just too nervous about what might happen. So, of course, I didn't get that kind of care and and and closeness that you would get with a midwife, but I I had this reassurance whether it was valid or not, that I was in the hands of a doctor. But then I felt, I think I felt because of that, I felt pretty alone dealing with that anxiety uh during my pregnancy. Uh, for context, my sister uh who has now passed away was really, really sick. And uh I was just worried about what it might mean for my child. So I uh I that was on my mind a lot. So it's a bit of a shame because I actually had a like a textbook, perfect pregnancy. Nothing went wrong until the birth, and I had to have a C-section. Uh, but then it didn't I didn't enjoy it because that was on my mind a lot. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Yeah. And I'm curious as to what part of your journey you decided on your care provider and what was best for you and your family. And that's great. What in part of in that journey made you consider to hire a doula then?

SPEAKER_03 4:24

Very yeah, very good, uh, very good question. I don't quite recall. It might have been somebody who recommended that that might be good. Uh, I can't remember how I found you, Erin.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

Do you remember how we connected? I think you're a friend or somebody who's like, hey, I heard you're anyways, like yeah, I honestly don't remember. I remember sitting outside and having a drink somewhere when we were.

SPEAKER_03 4:46

Yeah, because we actually connected. I was pretty uh progressed in my in my pregnancy. It was very, very close to the end that you and I connected. And I and I think I thought of it as more not so much because at the time, again, I I didn't realize that I would have needed that throughout the whole pregnancy, but for me it was more during the birth, right? Having somebody with us and with my partner who can also support my partner, and he actually talks about it still to this day how how much he appreciated your support while I was in labor and things were not going uh perfectly, and it was just so great to have you there with him. Uh so I didn't think about again, I didn't think about uh needing you for me. I thought of you being needed just from a practical standpoint, right? And of course, you're a human being. I'm not saying, you know, yeah, but uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

Oh, interesting. Yeah, and I do remember like even in the C section, right? And that can be such a a frightening time for a partner, right? They kind of you get away, and like I remember being with him, like we just were able to like be present together, we put on like the scrubs together, you know, that kind of camaraderie a little bit, and being there for him while he also dealt with his own emotions about the the change of plans.

SPEAKER_03 6:10

So yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

So I guess let's go, let's go into the birth since we've taught we everyone knows the ending, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Spoiler alert.

SPEAKER_00 6:19

Oh, um, but yeah, maybe describe a little bit then about your birth story, how you want to share that with us, the how it progressed for you.

SPEAKER_03 6:29

Yeah, so I had to be induced. Um and I still feel a little bit conflicted about that because I uh part of me was like, you know, maybe he I think he was just happy there for a few more days and everything was fine, and and uh uh he was 10 days late, I believe, like nine, ten days. And oh, very interesting fact. So I come from France, and in France the term is 41 weeks. And here I believe it's 40. Yeah, so I mean you would think that that kind of thing is universal.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

No, you would think it's not you're so I think they'll let you let you go to 42 at least, I think is quite normal for in some. Here in Canada? No, in Europe.

SPEAKER_03 7:14

Oh, in Europe, yeah. Yeah. So technically, I mean, universally speaking, he wasn't late.

SPEAKER_02 7:22

Right.

SPEAKER_03 7:22

Right? But my OB said, you know, if it goes past 10 days, it's safer to induce. And of course, you say that to me with its health anxiety, it is safer. Of course, let's do what's safer, you know, it's not take any risk whatsoever. Uh what I didn't know uh is that it can be pretty painful right away when you get induced, right? You don't get that progression. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, you're the experts, but that's what I read that you you the contractions can begin pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

It depends on the induction type, essentially.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Okay. Did you have Cervadel or the Pitocin right? I can't remember. Were you dialing? Oh my god, I would have no idea. It's kind of like a tampon. Okay, yeah. So that that can lead to some cramping immediately. Well, actually, some people experience nothing, which is really interesting.

SPEAKER_03 8:13

So it took a few hours because I think I was admitted at 4 p.m. And you know, of course I had to get settled in and before they did that. I think I my water broke around eight or nine. And I think that was the turning point, right? Like once my water broke, it started getting really painful. And I think that's when my partner called you, Aaron, it was like, come on, let's go. It's starting. And I was just I was actually really excited, like going to the hospital. Like, really, um, I was like, I'm finally gonna meet my son. You know, that's really how how I felt. Like it was I was not nervous, and and that's the thing. I was not nervous about the birth. I was nervous about everything about him having all kinds of medical conditions and diseases, and but the birth itself, I was like, it's gonna be okay. And and and and C, um, I did not anticipate a C-section, I did not research anything about C-section. So for some reason, I thought this was not gonna happen to me. This was for everybody else but me. Uh, which is not how I typically think. I usually I think you know, it's gonna happen to me.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Right, you had the anxiety for your son, but not for yourself and your own like all the snare.

SPEAKER_03 9:30

Yeah, I think they're there, yeah, that's the same pattern. So we drove to the hospital, you know, everything was was ready, and I was just so excited to meet him. So we got there, I got induced, yeah, and then my water broke and it started getting pretty painful. But uh, you and I, Erin, had discussed that I wanted to try and see if I could do uh the labor without an air petrol for however long I could. So we did that for many hours, and in fact, I I don't regret it at all. Uh I I thought this was the most powerful experience I've ever felt. Uh it was it was surreal, right? The the the pain and and just just going through the motions, and um I I don't regret feeling that uh at all. I I just wish that I uh would have been able to go all the way through to the end without complications, but um I think at one point it became too much for me, and we had this uh keyword, remember? It was it for me, it was pineapple teapot. Don't ask me how we came up with that. I think you guys did pineapple. I think you came up with one breath. Pineapple teapot. I think it had to be something really weird so that it wouldn't be uttered as part of a regular conversation.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

So basically, just like pause on that. That is something as do-a as we we would do more clients, is because during transition, I think you got to eight centimeters or something around there without an epidural. Yes, yeah, around that time is when people start to say, I can't do this anymore. Give me the epidural. And and that's that moment where we either are gonna say, give you some tough love, and like, okay, you can keep doing this, or when you say the word, it it means you're serious and you want your epidural. So that's why like we did the code work, right?

SPEAKER_03 11:22

Yeah. And so that part I do regret a little bit. And I know that it is not it's not a reflection of my willpower. I know that it's got nothing to do with, you know, my strength and my willingness to go through, but I I kind of regret it because after that it kind of went uh south. I and I don't know if it is because of the epiterol that I chose to get. Uh like you said, it was eight, eight and a half centimeters. But then my son's heartbeat started going down and it was dangerously low. I think it was at 30 beats per minute. Um and so that's why they they said they strongly recommended a c-section in that moment. But yeah, I for many, many years after that, I wondered what if I had pushed through and and not yeah, decided to get the C-section, what would have happened? Maybe I could have had a vaginal birth, because my plan, right? As much of a plan it could be uh was to, and that was after hearing my best friend's experience with her own child, uh, was to get my son myself, you know, and and and bring him to my chest. That was what I was what I wanted to do, and of course I had I got nothing like that uh with uh with a C-section.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

So Yeah, that's the hard part about that decision to get the epidural, because it is common, like you were no guarantees, right? The epidural can work wonders and help you relax and everything is fine, but that baby can react. So who we don't know, right? These are these parts of our birth that we can't we revisit in our minds, but it is very it's a very yeah, it's a moment where it's hard to to know what happened, I guess, right?

SPEAKER_03 13:10

Yeah, so is it it is is it possible that the medication itself would have had an effect on his heart rate and things like that? Is this something that you have seen? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We have, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

It could also possible, but again, no, we don't, you know, nobody exactly.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

You're never you can't go back and undo to have all the answers. So it's it's it's such a difficult thing to play the what if game with. The the different side effects of having an epidural is even like what positions you were kind of restricted to. Oh, okay. You know, how some people's blood pressures can be really affected, which then affects the blood, you know, the the blood pressure of the baby. And there's there's multiple things that you just weigh the risks and the benefits. And for you, the benefit was to get relief from the sensations. And you you had every right and every uh instinct to follow that and and carry it through.

SPEAKER_03 14:16

No, for sure, for sure. I've I feel we all we'll do the best we can at the time, right? Like in that moment, we we we try to do the best that we can. And I I was pretty tired at that point, right? Because I had labored for many, many hours. And like you said, it is hard.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

It's not like right who went into labor naturally on that progress, right? Like it it lets your system and your body into into going into labor.

SPEAKER_03 14:42

But yeah, you know, thinking about it, there's part of me that that's like, you know, maybe I should have gotten an epidural right away. Like, what was I trying to prove? And I don't know if that's what I was trying to do, you know, but like because again, you know, I I'm hearing stories of some of my friends who had an epidural right away as soon as they got to the hospital and then they took a nap, and then, you know, they were super rested by the time the baby came. Because the thing is, when when my son was born, I was exhausted uh from the labor. I had just had major surgery, uh, and and also because of when he was born, he was born, I believe, as yeah, seven in the morning. I had labored since technically, you know, seven the night before. Um and then I didn't sleep during the day because I was just hyper alert uh after he was born. So I I essentially didn't sleep for almost two days, right? By the time we uh yeah, I had a first nap. And and so it makes you think, right? Like of course, if you could go back, you could redo everything in your life. But uh I didn't think about that. I didn't think about how tired it would make me and and how it would impact the my experience with my son in the first minutes and first hours. Of course.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

But you also have to the one thing that I I really choose to educate new parents with if they're taking our prenatal classes, really shedding light that the epidural rate for a first-time birthgiver in Ottawa is 98%.

SPEAKER_03 16:17

No way. Oh yeah, it's very high. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

There's not many birthgivers giving birth in a hospital setting, obviously for those who give birth outside, but it's very high for a first-time baby because it's longer how it's start like there's so many different components. It's it's give yourself some grace that 98% of all of the people before you also chose an epidural for their that's that feels very validating. And I tell them that because I said, regardless of how you what values you're bringing going in, give yourself grace for that to change because you're making outcome plans on something that you can't anticipate. No, so it's it's it's about just knowing that there's there's different avenues it's gonna go, and you have to weigh the risks and the benefits.

SPEAKER_03 17:16

I think one of the reasons why I didn't anticipate that at all is because my mom had herself three very quick births.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

Yes, I think you're anticipating.

SPEAKER_03 17:26

The last one, the last one being like under half an hour, like, you know. Right.

SPEAKER_02 17:33

Yeah, so and and no c-section.

SPEAKER_03 17:36

So I was like, oh, you know, uh, so I guess it is not hereditary or whatever, right? Like it's just not right.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

I mean, they can play in the background of our subconscious, right? Oh, my mom had a fast birthday. Like that might encourage you, but yes, there's there's no people, yeah, think there's a correlation. So no, there is there is not for sure. Everybody's so different, but yeah. So can you tell us about like for those who have never had a c-section or your experience in the c-section? Because I think you have a really interesting kind of take on how it went for you.

SPEAKER_03 18:07

Yeah, so I guess it can uh be experienced in many different ways because I know some people have scheduled C-sections, and I'm sure that is a very different experience too. Because you you kind of you you don't know exactly what you're getting into, but you can kind of plan for it. Whereas I had not planned for it at all. Um so uh of course, when they said uh that it was the recommended solution because his heart rate was so low, I was I was like, yes, let's do it. I I I'm not sure, but I think they made me sign something. Yeah, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

Uh it was just a blur. It's a blur. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:44

It's a blur. Of course, I was not gonna read the small print. It's like just whatever.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

No, everyone does that.

SPEAKER_03 18:51

And then they they took me to the OR, and I was so fortunate that you could come with us, Erin, that my partner could come with uh me and that you could come with us. I'm I am I was during the pandemic, I was thinking of uh parents uh who could not be together in the OR, and that that's so so heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

And not every time, like it really depends mostly on the anesthesiologist. They can, you know, or the nursing staff too. They're kind of so it's not all the time doulas are allowed. So I'm always like you know.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

Because you took you took some incredible photos of my son being born. I mean, that is worth you know, everything uh that I have because I didn't get to see it, so I'll get to this point. Uh so we go we get to the OR and they have to they have to strap you to the table. Uh and then they put this, and this was eight years ago again. I don't know if things have changed, but um, they put this sheet in in front of you so you don't get to see uh what's what's happening, and I guess that is the default uh because probably most people don't want to see themselves being operated on. The thing is, I would have liked to see. I didn't think of asking in the moment. Obviously, I was rushed there. I was like, it's this did not cross my mind. It's just in retrospect. I want it to be present while my child was being born, right? I wanted to, like I said earlier, I wanted to get him out of me and put him on my chair. I wanted to be there. Did I not film him coming out? You took you took a photo of him coming out of my womb. It's extraordinary. Honestly, you could you could win like a National Geographic photography prize or something. It's just like he's like this, you know, like it's incredible. And and and after that, I believe it it went pretty quickly. And uh I was very lucky because the epidural worked like when I got it in in in the hospital room right away, and then I believe they do a touch-up uh after that, before the the C-section, and it worked very well because I felt pulling uh sensations, but I did not feel any pain. Uh I was pretty nervous though. I was uh I was pretty nervous. And uh and he was born quickly and he cried right away, and I just felt so so relieved. And I remember the uh the OB said, Congratulations, you have a beautiful son, and I just felt this immense sense of relief. Um but then I started shaking like crazy. Uh, and again, it's not something that I had researched at all, and and I understand it's pretty common, but shaking like I hadn't shaken before ever. Like I and that might be why this dropped you to the table. I don't know. Uh but I was just like this. And I believe it is uh a side effect of I don't know if the surgery or the medication that they use. Um so that was. That was a little bit unsettling too. And I was really cold as well, even though I had this uh thing that was blowing warm air. Yeah, you had the blanket on you. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Um and then something really strange happened. The nurse asked me, so I can either give him to you and put him on your chest, but you will not see him. Or I can give him to dad and you will see him. And so just picture me, right? I was just like on the OR table shaking, I guess. And I was just like, uh I guess I want to see him. Right? But I don't know, I don't know if it's a standard question. Um so they gave him they gave him to my partner, and I again I was just like this, I was just looking sideways, and he was sitting in a chair, I believe, but not like super close to me. So essentially I couldn't uh see him from up close and I couldn't touch him either. Until actually a nurse, I don't know if it was the same nurse, who came and unstrapped my my wrist and so that I could touch his hand. Um and in the moment I didn't think much of it. Uh again, it's you know, thinking back on that experience that I I wished I could have had him on me. And I don't understand why I wouldn't have been able to see him. I guess it is because you've got this sheet here that's pretty close to your chin. Uh but I mean, technically there would have still been a gap for him to lay here. So I could have, I don't know. It's just it's just really strange.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Hard question to ask someone, right? Like you're shaking and right.

SPEAKER_03 23:53

So what it's almost something that they should ask you when you're still like fully not, I mean, I was conscious, but uh ready to answer it, you know. And I don't understand why. And in in that moment, of course, they had to act quickly because his heart rate was very low. But all it would take is a nurse or somebody to while you're being wicked away to say, okay, this is how it's gonna go. We're gonna put you on the table there, we're gonna operate you. So you have two options. You can do this, you can do that. Do you want to see? Do you not want to see? I I don't know. I mean, I they they probably have so many more things to worry about than do this with me. But uh and and for those who have an opportunity to plan for their C-section, I hope that this conversation happens, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

Ahead of time. Yeah, as part of the birth plan. Yeah. Or they don't know to ask sometimes. Maybe that's it, right? Sometimes we don't know, like in birth in general, right? If you don't ask and know that that could be an option, then they won't tell us.

SPEAKER_03 24:59

But I I think that it this I mean, ideally, because we don't we shouldn't assume that the mom knows what questions to ask.

SPEAKER_02 25:07

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 25:07

Because we've never been in that situation, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:10

So the care provider, I believe, should kind of walk you through what the complicated thing about this is as Erin and I, you know, we kind of go back through all of our own experiences of supporting families in an OR, the experience is based on what care provider you have. Okay. So, for example, one birth I was at was my very first C-section as a baby doula as well. Baby was delivered, and the nurse had the baby, and uh she was still naked, and she walked up to the dad and said, Take your shirt off. He took his shirt off, she put the baby on his chest and wrapped them in warm blankets. There was no asking what anybody preferred. This is what she just did.

SPEAKER_03 26:04

Okay, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:05

So, never ever since then have I ever seen a nurse offer or tell a parent to do skin to skin with a baby in the OR.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

And I've only seen once where they put baby skin to skin here and the baby got too cold, and I never saw that again. So I think they were trying, but the OR is so cold, so they try to do like they were trying to do skin to skin while you're laying there, no, no hands available. And yeah, it's often done.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

There's no there's no consistency, unfortunately. There's no like standard because it really depends on the nurse you get sometimes. Maybe it depends on anesthesiologist, the doctor like there's there's too many moving components to I guess the best thing you can say to parents is know what your options are and ask about them ahead of time so that you the advocacy can like, well, can't I do skin to skin with the baby? I've heard another, you know, like if you knew what the options are, right? But there they might not always be an option for your experience.

SPEAKER_03 27:11

Mm-hmm. I see. Yeah, no, that that is uh that's a good way to go is having uh those questions ready, right? Like knowing what to ask in the moment so that you can uh advocate for it for yourself and your preferences.

SPEAKER_01 27:28

Yeah, as those baby doulas, we also didn't really know, right? Or without the other experiences and without seeing how things have happened since, or like that was my first thing, yeah, overstepping boundaries or always mindful of like us asking as well, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:46

It's also challenging because you're not in the power dynamics in a birthroom, especially in a c section. It's like, right? Um, yeah, as well. Like Christine said, every care provider has a different way, so it would be kind of them saying, agreeing, I guess almost.

SPEAKER_03 28:02

Agreeing, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Because the next C section I went to, I was like, Oh, you can have skin to skin with your baby in the OR. I was telling the couple if it happens. And then the C section happened, and they were like, No, absolutely not. You cannot have skin to skin, it's too cool. And the oh, then you're like bamboozled about oh god, like yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

Oh uh so yeah, that that shaking, like you said, I think that catches people no matter what off guard. And a lot of people feel some regret because they can't actually hold their baby properly, right? You're shaking, you're trying to settle. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:39

There was probably no right or wrong way of of going about it, right? It's just um I I I think in and here I I I'm not blaming the doctor, I'm not blaming the nurses because actually that they were uh for the most part really wonderful. Um I think it's just it's just I I regret this experience, you know. This is not how I wanted it to go. And I think it's so, so important to keep an open mind as you get into this. And I thought, I thought I had uh you and I had this conversation, Erin. I was like, oh, you know what? Um whatever happens, happens, right? I'm open to it. I I think I was trying to convince myself that I um I was gonna go with the flow, but it's just so not my personality. That made no sense. I don't go with the flow. I like I like I don't go with the flow. I like I like to know uh what's going on, I like to prepare, you know.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

So I think I think it's just and you and most of the population, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Like, yeah, and that unexpected is so hard, and I think that's why we question ourselves so much after. It's like because the plan, and you're you know, you had this vision of a baby coming to your chest, and then you didn't get that, and it's yeah, so that kind of there's a grieving, there's a grieving process that needs to happen.

SPEAKER_03 30:04

Yeah, and then we went to uh to our room eventually, and then I was able to do skin to skin with him, and that was really, really nice. Um uh, but then I again because I have anxiety, I and even still to this day, that kind of makes me a little sad. Is you know, people talk about it being the most amazing day of your life, and it's just the happiest time. And I don't think that's how I felt. Of course, he is the most amazing thing that's happened to me. Um, but I was just so worried, and that kind of trumped everything. I I wanted somebody to tell me that he was gonna be okay. Actually, I wanted something completely unrealistic. I wanted somebody to tell me that he was not gonna be sick like my sister because that was my trauma, right? That was my story. But there was no way to tell. He was just born, right? But it was just like I just need to know because now he's now he's here, and all of a sudden I'm feeling this love I have never felt before. And I just want him to stay alive and I want him to be healthy, and that's the most important thing. And no one can actually give me that reassurance, right? I just have to trust that it's gonna be okay. And again, that's not my personality.

unknown 31:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

Find me up, test everything and make sure you'll bubble. Yeah, it's yeah. Uh so yeah, let's talk about that because I I know um you have uh your experience in postpartum as well. And I think I mean you're you're not alone in this, like the they I would say you're in the almost norm of kind of experience.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

There's more of a majority who feel that way.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

And so the your postpartum journey, and thank you for being so open and honest too. I I really appreciate that. But yeah, maybe let's transition into some of those postpartum bits, and and and like you said, the love, deep love, uh and then the the other side of things as well.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

The anxiety, yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 32:11

Um I did not expect to feel this much love. And I know this sounds silly, so of course, duh, you're gonna love your child, you know, but it's just overwhelming. It's just I don't know how to describe it, right? You just look at him and it's you cannot believe you made this human being and how perfect they are, and it doesn't matter what they look like, right? Like, you know, if you know, it's just it's you made him, you made her, you made them, and it's just incredible. Uh but then immediately you're just like, oh my god, what if what if something happens to him, right? Like, because this is the most precious thing you have, and they're so small and they look so vulnerable vulnerable, even though they might not be. You know, we say babies are stronger than we think they are, but they look so tiny and and so fragile, and and and you feel this immense sense of responsibility to to care for them and make sure they're okay. And I think it is very uh prominent for the mother, it is for the father, I'm sure too, but there's this primal instinct to keep them alive and well. And so I've I I know that some women that love and that can can be delayed as well, and that is normal too. For me, it it it I felt it right away, and and from that moment, it's like I dissociated from myself, and I was like, this he is all that matters.

SPEAKER_02 33:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:47

And that that actually led to many problems because I completely forgot about my um myself. He was all that mattered. Uh so I think that that was that's the key piece here in my my postpartum journey is um this focus on him. And uh yeah, I don't I don't know again if that is something that is common. I I don't I don't hear a lot of moms talk about it, at least not in those terms.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

No, I maybe that's what they feel internally and and um yeah, the I think again, very common experience, right? We a lot of people say they lose themselves in motherhood in general, like even as their kids get older, and there's a lot of hormonal things going on there. Like right, right again, this bonding hormone and the drop. And so yeah, we we tend to focus um more on the baby, and this it also is a cultural thing. Like we don't we don't mother the mother, um, right? As soon as that baby we we we bathe them in love and their pregnancy and we love them up, and then as soon as that baby's born, it's like whoop, right? The attention moves right to baby. So we can sit in a room and feel so lonely because all people you have people visiting, right? And as much as we love that, right? You can sit in a corner and feel very isolated and alone, um, because all the focus is there, and you're like, all right, yeah, every all that matters is them, right? And you you lose yourself a bit in that.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

How many appointments did your baby have after the baby was born? And when was your first follow-up, right? It's it it shows the disconnect of all of the focus being on, and rightfully so, right? We want to make sure baby's okay, but not checking in with the parents, especially the birthgiver who just had major surgery. Um, right, there's there is that disconnect in our care, regardless. It's societal, medical, you know, on all levels, we kind of forget that born also was this mother and father, and and how are they?

SPEAKER_03 36:00

And it's it's hard for you as the mom to advocate for yourself in that moment because you're not attuned to those needs. So you don't I I didn't think about it at all, right? It was taking baby to a uh doctor's appointment, making sure he's okay, that he has everything he needs. It didn't even cross my mind to think about what I might need. Wow, right? And my partner was amazing, you know, like and and even you know, we didn't have much of a village because we're both from, you know, we're not from Canada. Uh so we don't have family here, we have friends, um, but still we didn't have much help at all. That is also something that I underestimated is how many hands you need with a newborn. And even if, like me, you are a very independent person who used to doing everything on their own, it's very it's a very different beast. It's not something you can do alone. Like you need to have support. You and so one of the biggest advice I would give is when you're pregnant, is make sure you have a support system. Like don't think you can do it. I mean, sometimes you have no choice, and I I respect that if that is also a choice, but uh yeah, make sure you have a support system, and the right kind of support, right?

SPEAKER_00 37:25

Too. So there's the there's the there's the visitors that come, right, and are like expecting to be fed, maybe, or to like hold your baby and then leave, right? So also make sure, right? It isn't just like, oh, I had my mom visit and all, you know, she came, she saw the baby and she left. Like, bring food with you, like take out the garbage, like those kind of helpful support to people you can lie and rely on to take the garbage out and you know, mop blood off the floor, you know, like those kind of real, real people that will help you. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:54

And and mental health support too, because when we when we talk about support, we think of you know, um, making food and you know, I don't know, helping with the baby or cleaning the house, and that is fantastic, and that is needed. But what I would have needed, and I and again, I think it is because I did not realize that I needed, therefore, I did not go out and seek that help, but I would have needed mental health support. I would have needed to fill out a checklist by my doctor, you know, to diagnose what I believe was, and I will never know because I never got a diagnosis, but pretty certain I had pretty severe postpartum anxiety. Um, I would have needed to become aware of that and and and get some help instead of pushing through. And but again, I was so focused on my child that perhaps part of me thought it was normal. Uh I don't know. We're not educated. No. Right? I feel like there's such a gap there that needs to be filled.

SPEAKER_01 39:02

You need to read a book and and take a test to drive a car, but you have to nothing to uh bring a human into this world and and survive it.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

And never and then a three-section on top of that with no real support or guidance. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:19

And we we underestimate what this transition into motherhood looks like. It's actually called matrescence, it's trending at the moment. Um it's not in the dictionary yet, but it it will be, I hope. Uh, it is such a major transition, uh emotionally, physically. Um and we think it's like, okay, we just give birth and then everything goes back to normal. And what's normal? What's uh everything goes back to baseline. Nothing goes. Your baseline, nothing changes. The baby's out, but you go back to being the same. And I'm not even talking about fitting in your genes, right? It's like from a brain standpoint, from a priorities standpoint, like you you see everything through a different lens, right? Like your priorities change, the way you approach situations change. Um I I mean, I don't know, I don't want to generalize, but for me, I'm not the same person that I was before I had my child.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

What what do you think changed? What would be something that you would describe that happened?

SPEAKER_03 40:30

I don't I don't sometimes I don't even recognize the person that I used to be. Um I'm definitely more um more mature. Uh maybe it's just just getting older too, but I'm um I don't know. I just I just feel like a different person. I I don't I don't approach situations in the same way. I I'm I'm I've always been quite empathetic uh to people's situations, like always giving people the benefit of the doubt, but even more so now, like I feel like my emotional intelligence has grown. Uh I'm I'm more forgiving, I am more understanding, I'm more resilient. Um because because it's so powerful and and hard, right? Like you, yeah, it really changes you. Yeah, it really does. Yeah, really does. Right? Right. But I'm so thankful for that too, right? Like he has he's made me, he's made me such a better person. Um because also raising kids, like I know we're here to talk about postpartum, but even after that, like raising a kid is hard. They you know, yeah, they I'm a lot more patient. That's one thing, right? You need so much patience. But uh it it I think it forces you to reflect on yourself. It's like who am I? Right? Because you you because because I lost myself in motherhood those first few years, I think it took me, I would say, a good three years to feel like, and again, I wasn't going back to my old self, to feel like I was kind of out of that phase and rediscovering who I was as a person and what I wanted to do. Because during that phase, anyone would have come to me and said, like, what do you want to do? What do you like? What are your hobbies? I was like, I have no idea.

SPEAKER_00 42:38

Yeah, and that's like self-care, right? That that self-care. Just take care of yourself. I don't know what I want to do anymore. I don't know who I am. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:47

Yeah. And and I don't know if this is something that you can share with expecting parents, because I mean, how do you prepare for that? Even if you knew about it. It's like you're gonna be a whole new person, just get ready for it. It was like, okay. Right.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

And then it's kind of like the birth, right? Yeah, these these things like that. We can't we can't then be type A project plan, our our our transformation, I guess. You write that as I guess transformation is that it takes us with it. Um, and I and there's I think you're describing too, there's a there's a little like new discovery, and there's also that grief and like that being able to let go of that person. Because if we're trying to hold on to that old person, get back to what I was, shape, size, you know, mental health, like all that, and we can't actually let go and grieve that a little bit and then move into this new. Um, it's it's really challenging for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_03 43:44

Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned this because I uh I felt grief for sure. And and and it's tricky because it makes you feel guilty.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

Makes you feel like a bad mom.

SPEAKER_03 43:57

Exactly. You're just like, okay, and you don't. You don't think of it that way, but essentially it's I miss my old life. I miss having more freedom. And at the same time it's like, okay, but of obviously I do not regret, you know, uh having my child, you know, I couldn't live with him without him now.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

But this is the paradox of motherhood. This is the paradox, yeah. Two things can be true. You can regret your decision to transition into this, but also love it at the same time. Just because you're not loving every piece of the transition doesn't mean that motherhood is not amazing and and full of joy at the same time. You can have both things at the same time. But having anything negative associated with motherhood just makes us feel like bad parents.

SPEAKER_03 44:55

Yeah, I saw uh a quote one time. It said, uh, you can love your child all the time, but you don't have to love parenting them all the time.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

Correct. That's great.

SPEAKER_03 45:08

Yeah, I know. It was a variation of that.

SPEAKER_01 45:12

It's not you don't have to like them all the time. Yeah, you don't have to like the kid all the time.

SPEAKER_03 45:17

But you can you love them, but you don't have to love them. Yeah, you do love them. And that's true. That's true. Sometimes like, oh my God.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

Had this one temper tantrum, and I put him in his room, and I was like, You stay in here and you need to think about. And he goes, I don't like you very much right now. And I said, Good, I don't like you either. And I shut the door. How long? Oh, he was uh probably four or five, like kindergarten. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, push pushing the boundaries of a lot of things, right? But I don't like you right now. I'm like, good, I don't like you either. So I guess we're on the same page. Right.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

For sure. Um, I guess so. What do you think you're still carrying with you then? So as we kind of wrap up here, what do you like? What do you because we I mean I I always tell my moms, like, I I carry those for life. They it feels like yesterday, and I have distinct memories about it. Like I can't remember what I had for dinner last night, but I can remember very distinct moments of my birth and some good, some bad, right? So is there anything that you feel like you've carried forward, the good, the bad, you know, in terms of your parenting and as as you transformed, um, as you mentioned?

SPEAKER_03 46:27

Yeah. Um, say one thing I want to say is that we're so fortunate to be mothers, right? Because there's so many mothers, so many people out there who do not have this uh opportunity, right? And so uh this is I'm I feel so grateful, I think, to to to have gone through everything that I've gone through and to have him. So the good and the bad. I feel so fortunate for that whole journey, essentially. And so I think it's important to remember that when you go through those those difficult times, but also to give yourself grace if you don't always feel that way. And because you know, uh you're gonna be like, oh, I'm I have my child, I should be grateful all the time, you know, and I I I shouldn't have the right to complain about how hard it is or be real about how hard it is. And I think this goes back to the paradox you were talking about, Christine, and uh and two things being true, is that you can recognize that this is an experience that you're very fortunate to be living, and also one of the hardest that you will ever go through.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

That's really beautiful Kami.

SPEAKER_03 47:50

Yeah, beautiful. We can because I I I complain all the time, you know. I'm just like, oh my god. I mean, and and and he's he's eight and it's it's gotten so much easier. Uh I found for me, for me, I think the first few weeks were hard because it's a one-way street. They you give everything to them, and until that first smile, right? That first smile is just like I'm a communicator. I like talking to people and I like when they respond to me. You know?

SPEAKER_01 48:28

All they do in those first two weeks is yell at you.

SPEAKER_03 48:32

I don't like talking to myself, I like talking to people, and I like to hear a response. And so having that two-way communication for me was uh, and even after that, you know, it it takes a while before you can have a conversation with them. Uh but now when you know, at the age of eight, like we're we're we're kind of like besties, you know, it's just like have conversations and laugh, and it's just so fun. I love this age. But every every age has its challenges and reward, yeah, and good.

SPEAKER_01 49:06

Yeah, and I think we can really summarize that the care of the family in those early weeks is something that could really use improvement in our system, right? And it's a dream to do a podcast and find someone in Norway or the Norwegian places to talk about this, but they have in-home support for the first two weeks full-time for postpartum families. And it's a a nurse or uh an equivalent to like a postpartum doula, and it is included, it is paid for by the government to have in-home postpartum care for the families in those early days and weeks after a baby is born.

SPEAKER_00 49:53

Wow. And that's curbing a lot of what you're talking about, Camille. Like the, you know, hey, um, get really getting a sense of how the mom is doing mentally and the way they're set up and right, getting that kind of post-like you're talking about the postpartum plan in place, right? Like just giving you that soft landing versus this very hard, like get home and oh, I'm in pain.

SPEAKER_01 50:12

I feel like as a doula, and I'm sure Erin can attest to this, most of the postpartum visits we had with our birth clients or whatever is reassurance. Yes, this is normal. Your baby is gonna make these sounds. Yes, this all looks totally normal. Yeah, feeding is going very well because these are the markers, and just the reassurance to a new parent to hear, oh, oh, everything is fine. And then a little of that anxiety can lift, and then maybe a piece of her can start to come out and say, Oh, I'm gonna go have some breakfast now then because I don't need to worry every second.

SPEAKER_03 50:48

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think the what I it's just really for my my um me as as a unique person with unique anxieties, but I what would have helped I think is um talking to a a a medical provider or or a postpartum nurse, uh and and them asking me very specific questions because I it's not like I would have pretended everything was fine, but I was not conscious that something was wrong, you know? So unless you ask me I don't know, are you having intrusive thoughts? Are you thinking of this? Or do you find yourself being anxious a lot of the time, most of the time, you know, like things like that would have helped me realize perhaps that there was something going on, or maybe that provider can be in a position to then refer me because I I was not capable of asking myself these questions. I was not capable of asking anyone those questions because I was not conscious of it.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

Right. The screening, the the mental health screening for the for the birthing person is and even partners is I'm not sure how it's happening now or if it's better, but it it still needs work. There's no regulation.

SPEAKER_02 52:18

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 52:19

Yeah, yeah. And it starts the conversation, right? And like you said, because you're devoting all your attention to the baby, we lose a bit of ourselves, and by the time it's happened or happening, we're kind of lost in a spiral a little bit. If you have a partner, right? The same thing. They don't kind of there's a few this huge adjustment happening, and they're also focused on making sure the baby stays alive and taking care of you, and so it can just be exhausting. Um, just that that shift, too. So my OB, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:48

My OB asked me two questions about me that I remember. Um do you want to have another child? And if so, this is how many months you need to wait because of the C section. And two, do you want to be on the pill?

SPEAKER_01 53:04

Oh and this is at your six-week follow-up?

SPEAKER_03 53:09

I don't remember. Yeah, it must have been it must have been, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:13

Usually you're not seen until six weeks, so that would have likely been unless you had a complication.

SPEAKER_03 53:18

Yeah. Yeah. But see, that that that opportunity could have been what could be when you get some sort of screening.

SPEAKER_00 53:26

I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And and those two things are focused on having sex again and having another baby.

SPEAKER_03 53:34

Over at it. That's all we're good for. This was not my priority for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:39

Like never mind the mental health. Just like, you know, you could have sex again soon and have another baby. Goodbye. So job done. Yeah. Yeah. So that's I would love that command. Like that, that is so it's dear to heart, our hearts as well, because we know that that host part of time can be vulnerable, powerful, confusing, exciting, right? All of the things. And if if they have again like that soft place to land and have a good support that can transform your memories of that time, right? Maybe less regret and less anxiety, and that ease can move you into parenthood a little smoother than most of us do. Get a very clunky kind of thrown into it vibe. And it's not okay. Not okay. No. Yeah. We hope to change.

SPEAKER_01 54:25

Thank you for sharing all your story with us. That was requires bravery too. And part of what you said is you didn't expect this because not everybody is as brave as you to share a story that wasn't all sunshine and roses.

SPEAKER_03 54:40

No, you're very welcome. Happy to, if this can help, you know, any anyone out there, happy to do it.