Between The Lakes with Fahad Rehman

How Toronto Lost Its “Central Park” | Rail Deck Park ft. Chris Jovellanos

• Fahad Rehman • Episode 1

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Toronto voted 36–4 to build it. A massive park in the heart of the city. A project some compared to New York’s Central Park.

Then developers challenged the plan, the province sided with them, and everything changed.

Chris Jovellanos was inside Toronto’s planning department as Rail Deck Park went from one of the city’s most ambitious public space projects… to a proposed condo development above the rail corridor.

In Episode 1 of Between The Lakes, we break down:
 • what Rail Deck Park actually was
 • how “air rights” changed everything
 • why downtown Toronto desperately needs more green space
 • the tension between housing and public space
 • and whether there’s still any path to bringing the original vision back

Between The Lakes is a podcast about the people, places, and hidden decisions shaping life across the GTA, Southern Ontario, and the communities between the Great Lakes.

If it affects where we live and how we grow, we’re talking about it here.

New episodes biweekly. Available wherever you get your podcasts.

Intro

SPEAKER_01

What happened here at the Rail Deck Park could very well determine the quality of city that we're gonna get in our future.

SPEAKER_00

Rail Deck Park was a really ambitious proposal that seeked to basically build an urban park on top of the rail corridor. They would have covered over that and created a giant park space in between there, which was being compared to like our central park. It was nixed in favor of another proposal. Another proposal. Spoiler alert, it involves condos.

SPEAKER_01

On average, there's about 28 square meters of park space per person. Enough for like a living room. When it comes to the downtown core, some sources have said five square meters per person, some have said four. Ouch. They're selling air basically.

SPEAKER_00

Parkland is something we're gonna need forever. Right. You build a park, this that is forever. We're doing work for people 50, 60, 100 years from now. What do we do about the fact that, you know, once this is built, it's that's it, it's done, right? And and we're running out of places you can feasibly put a park like this, especially in the core. This was arguably, I would say, our last shot. Welcome to Between the Lakes, the podcast about where we live and how we grow here in the GTA. My name is Fahad Raymond. I'm your host. Uh, I'm a real estate broker, I'm a court-approved expert witness on real estate matters, and I've spent the last eight years navigating the GTA uh in my role as a real estate broker, but also seeing how the region unfolds, learning about cities and the way we build. Uh, and this podcast is basically about everything to do with this region here between the lakes. That's where we get our name from. Uh, the lakes, of course, being Lake Ontario, Lake Erie, uh, Lake Huron, Lake Simcoe. At the end of the day, if it affects life in this region, we're going to be talking about it on this podcast. So I'm really pleased to kick off our first episode here. For episode one, my guest here is Chris Jovianos. He spent years inside the City of Toronto Planning Department. Um, he worked on development approvals. He worked uh to try to modernize a system that really badly needed it. And uh, he was right in the middle of one of the most talked-about things that has ever happened in this city. Uh, most talked about and quietly gutted, which is Rail Deck Park. So we're gonna talk about that, uh, what it was supposed to be, how it got approved, and exactly what happened when the province and the developers got into it. So let's get into it, Chris. Awesome. Thanks for having me, by the way. Of course, man. Thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_01

This is an inaugural episode.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, I appreciate you having me on board. And I think the last time I spoke to you about this, we were in Florida. That's right. Yeah, it's Sunny Orlando, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, Sunny Orlando, a little different from here, but we were we were chatting about it and uh you were sharing some of the insight that you saw as as really an insider to the whole process. And so I think uh that's something that's very interesting. We're definitely going to talk about that. But before we do,

Chris’ Experience Inside Toronto Planning

SPEAKER_00

let's get into who you are and your background. Uh, you spent years inside the planning department, but to most people, planner they don't really know what that means. So why don't you tell us uh what you did, what your days actually looked like, and and things like that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So essentially I spent uh about 10 years at the city of Toronto. Okay. Uh I started my career in Toronto Water. Take a step back, basically. I wanted to become a planner. So I went to the University of Waterloo in the School of Planning to get my planning degree, to understand how city building works. And I really wanted to be involved in how to build a city and have some influence and just help um develop a community. And then I decided that I figured I want to work in government. So I took my master's in public policy uh downtown and um I started my career in government and in policymaking. And so I had some stints at the province at the Ministry of Environment. Uh, I worked for Metrolinx for a little bit. So I had uh some experience at TTC. I eventually got the opportunity of basically my dreams, which was to move to get a job into city planning. So I was hired um by an amazing manager um at uh in a unit inside city planning called Business Performance and Standards. And my role was as a project coordinator. Um, just for the audience, basically, business performance standards is your oversight unit that focuses on trying to streamline the development review process. It also tries to speed up development review. We do a lot of reporting, KPIs, report to council, and we're sort of the glue team, I guess, to ensure things are stick together so that our planners or or internal commenting partners are we're all moving at a good speed. And so we were essentially the, I guess you could say the project managers, assisting planners in in uh processing applications.

Why Government Struggles to Modernize

SPEAKER_00

When you're trying to modernize a government process from the inside, what's the actual enemy? Is it is it the rules, is it the culture, is it the just the the the extent of the the beast you're dealing with, the people? Like what what what is it that in your opinion?

SPEAKER_01

My personal opinion, based on my experience at the city, not as a planner, but overseeing the process, um, I believe it's the the process itself, the way that it was structured, that hub and spoke model maybe might have worked for a smaller community or back when the city of Toronto was a bit smaller and didn't have the amount of um people moving in every year. I think we have about correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I think we have uh

Toronto’s Rapid Growth Problem

SPEAKER_01

at least around 140,000 new people moving into the city every year.

SPEAKER_00

So and a whole lot of development. So things have things have changed. Right. Things have changed quite a bit. I guess that process was a little bit dated, which is I think a that's kind of a common theme in that in Canada and Toronto overall is you know, we used to be this kind of fledgling nation, right? And all of a sudden we got to deal with like, you know, global levels of of growth. And and so that adaptation process, I imagine, would would take some time. And that definitely requires some process changes as well.

SPEAKER_01

That's right. Um, I think somebody that I worked with uh who I looked up to referred to government or the city as like a big ship, right? It's it's solid, uh, it works and it gets people from A to B and then it does a lot, but it takes a lot to steer that ship. And so that was my experience at the city. Um, our team was specialized in trying to implement change, and uh sometimes it worked, sometimes it took a little bit longer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

All right, so let's

What Rail Deck Park Actually Was

SPEAKER_00

get into Rail Deck Park. Uh, for those who don't know what this was, Rail Deck Park was a really uh ambitious proposal that uh seeked to basically build an urban park on top of the rail corridor, right? Uh so the rail corridor going from, I believe it was uh Blue Jays way down to Bathurst. Uh existing right now, you kind of walk over the bridges and uh, you know, you just got, you know, you see a bunch of train tracks below you. It would have actually made a fully like they would have covered over that and created a giant park space in between there, which was being compared to like our central park, right? So a lot of people were uh a big fan of this. Uh, I guess it had support in the city as well. Uh a couple stakeholders coming together, and certainly the public was very much a fan of what Railback Park was going to be and what it could have done for the city. I mean, I'm sure you could imagine like having a massive park right there, right, right in the center, right by the core, uh near the C and Tower, like that would have been huge for us, right? So uh the proposal came in, uh, a lot of people were in were in favor of it, and it actually went quite far along, right? It did. Yeah, and it got to approval. It did, it got to approval.

SPEAKER_01

Um essentially, my experience, I had the privilege of overseeing the development as it developed from 2016 when it was announced by Mayor Torrey at the time, right? All the way through to 2021, unfortunately, when it was uh, you know, it was nixed in favor of another proposal.

SPEAKER_00

Another proposal. Spoiler alert, it involves condos. It does. Yeah, as a lot of things. Surprise, surprise, surprise, surprise. There's a lot of things uh do do here. So um when when council voted 36 to 4 to advance it in December 2017, from inside the city, what did it feel like? Did people actually believe this was going to happen?

SPEAKER_01

I think so. There was a huge belief. Uh you know, part of my job was to talk to planners on a daily basis. And we had even a few fun extracurricular activities basically outside of the workplace where we would do trips around what was going to be rail deck park. Wow. So we had, you know, access to the rail corridor, just celebrating it as a future win because it was a huge deal from a planning perspective. Um, the city put together uh OPA, which is official plan amendment 395, which essentially made the proposal official from the city's perspective.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, right. Um and it got like overwhelming support, right? Overwhelming support most people in in favor of it.

SPEAKER_01

And uh and I'll backtrack as to why this is so important because I do believe that what happened here at the rail duck park could very well determine the quality of city that we're gonna get in our future. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00

It is a critical decision for millions of people, and and you know, and that affects life forever.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. And so I'll go back to you know why this is so needed, especially in the city of Toronto, based on you know what I've seen and what I've experienced uh around North America. But basically, uh I believe there was a study uh in uh in 2020, it was a spacings, not a study, sorry, it was a spacings article, I believe, that um that tried

Toronto’s Massive Park Space Shortage

SPEAKER_01

to uh understand uh just how much park space we actually need, how much do we have?

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and I believe I think across the city, on average, there's about 28 square meters of park space per person. So you can imagine 28 square meters is enough for like a living room on average. You have a little living room, every person has a little living room, maybe a studio condo or something of park space to enjoy, which is great. Um, when it comes to the downtown core, however, that amount of park space per person declined significantly. Some sources have said five square meters per person, some have said four. Wow. Some have even said it's as low as 0.16 to 1.3 or 1.4. Right. I might have gotten the stats wrong, but it still points to a significant issue that we have at the city, especially when you account for workers working in the downtown core.

SPEAKER_00

Right. And and in downtown, you arguably need it more than anyone else, right? You don't really have backyards, and you know, people obviously thrive in green space, and that's something that you know all great cities in the world have paid a lot of attention to. Of course, you got like the New York model where they almost like started with it in a way, right? Carved it out, uh, you know, specifically. Um, and so so that that that's really interesting.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and some cities have followed that path in prioritizing public space or even reserving public space um throughout, like not allowing any development happen. I mean, Chicago is a perfect example. You have um, you know, have Millennium Park as well. It's part of, I believe it's called Grant Park, which is a much bigger, you know, we're talking 300 plus hectares of land, uh, of park space, right? Um, New York. You have a significant amount of of hectares in Chicago and Millennium Park that's purpose built for the enjoyment of people to to you know have a picnic, to go out and and relax and enjoy the the outdoors. Yeah. Um you have Manhattan, uh, you have Central Park in Manhattan.

SPEAKER_00

I spent a few years living in New York and it's massive, right? And and and people use this stuff. And obviously, here in the city too, you know,

Why People Fell in Love With Rail Deck Park

SPEAKER_00

whether you want to look at Trinity Bellwoods or even Queen's Park, like you go to all of our parks in the summer, they're a little cramped, it's a little busy. And I don't blame people because hey, have and drink at the park. That's that's a great pastime. It's it feels great in our in our beautiful summers. Um, so so so it makes sense that this was something that was not only just needed, but also very much supported by people in the city and very much supported by the public. Like I don't think I've seen something get this much support from the general public since. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

And it because of what you said, it it was much needed. Um, Queen's Key could have been, could have had a ton of potential.

How Toronto’s Waterfront Became Condo-Heavy

SPEAKER_01

Um, Queen's Key, or that that whole waterfront area, that corridor. Um when we're rewinding back in history, it used to be industrial lands. Uh, but then the city, I believe in the 70s, um, had some developers start developing condos. It was also a great source of uh of development charges, so a great source of income for the city to help them balance the budgets and generate more revenue for the city. And so more and more developers started developing on that open swath of land that used to be for industrial and and port land purposes or port purposes. Right.

SPEAKER_00

And that's how we get our kind of our our building heavy and condo heavy waterfront there, which you know gets some gets some critique in in the public space.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Do you ever notice that Queen's Key? It's it's all high rises or mid-rises right at the water. Yeah, right. That's right. That's right. It's so it's so unique compared to some of the other cities we see, yeah, like Chicago that have a dedicated water.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and you kind of ease out into uh a more flat, natural landscape uh going in the water.

SPEAKER_01

I believe at the time it was justified, especially because the city is growing back in the 70s, and you know, there you need additional sources of revenue, a higher tax base. So why not have developers redevelop that land under the city's watch? Right. And so that continued to happen. I believe, uh I believe there was some resistance in the 80s, a pushback to try to reserve some of this land for public enjoyment. But ultimately, I think, you know, politically they developers had their way. And

Times Toronto Actually Got City-Building Right

SPEAKER_01

thankfully, Waterfront Toronto was introduced in 2001. I believe that was the year they were introduced, and they've really done a phenomenal job at um trying to beautify the space and install more park space in along the waterfront corridor. So they have uh, you know, they you have the wave decks, you have the the new park over by the Donlands. They've they've revitalized the Don River. Yeah, for sure. So that in a few years, once the the vegetation grows, it's just gonna be gorgeous. Yeah, um you have you know, you have um you have be a sugar beach there, yeah, right. And so Waterfront Toronto has done a great job with the land that they have available, but it still points to the root of the issue. There's a source problem there, there's just not enough dedicated space similar to what you see in New York, whereas a central park, somewhere where people can escape from the hustle and bustle of Bay Street, for example, or or the hustle and bustle of like living in a high density condo, and escape for a little bit and hear, you know, birds chirping, trees, relax, have a picnic, socialize. Nothing of the scale like a central park. I mean, this is where why Real Deck Park was so important because it proposed, I believe it was 21 hectares of parkland space, which is huge compared to um what we seen at Toronto in Toronto. I think the closest comparables may be Trinity Bellwoods, and then you go further west, and then you have High Park. Right.

SPEAKER_00

High Park is probably the one of the few parklands um where you can have that peaceful enjoyment of space and be teleported to nature, little nature reserve within the city, but you don't really have that closer to the core, and so that's kind of what this was gonna be. So let's

How Rail Deck Park Started Falling Apart

SPEAKER_00

go through what happened. So basically, uh it gets proposed by Mayor Tory, comes to council, they vote to approve it, and now it's like, okay, this might actually happen. Okay. So when things are going good, that's that you know, that's that's understood, everyone's behind it. What was the first hitch you guys encountered, and how did things start to kind of fall apart with this vision?

SPEAKER_01

So um from what I understand, based on my time at the city, there was a competing proposal for that space. So if you look at from an overhead view, the city of Toronto is essentially bisected by not just the Gardiner Expressway, but also the rail corridor, which is a vital transportation corridor. Right. This is where we transport sometimes goods, but a lot of people you've seen the gold train and everything like that. It's very um crucial for the city of Toronto economically, but it's also an open pit. Right. Right. So there's one concept that uh came up that I wasn't aware of at the time um that was introduced to me. It's the I the idea of air rights. And so I believe it was

Developers Buying the “Air Rights”

SPEAKER_01

2013, around that time, um, certain um certain companies or or corporations they purchased the air rights or above the the rail corridor. So I don't want to name some of those companies, but yeah, it was a consortium, right? It was a consortium, uh part of it was a consortium, yeah. That's right. And um there was a proposal um alternative to the rail duck park, which was essentially proposing a uh multi-condo high-rise development above rail deck park with park space integrated in between. So think about something like the Hudson Yards in New York. Have you ever been in the Hudson Yards? Yeah, I have.

SPEAKER_00

It's great, it's a nice, nice development and yeah, great buildings and you know, got some public space in the middle. Yeah. But a little different than like a sprawling public park. It definitely feels more urban. It's very urban. And so it would have been something more along that line. And I guess because they have the air rights, that's what they were pushing for. Um can you actually explain a little bit about air rights? So, how does that work in the city of Toronto?

SPEAKER_01

So you could purchase not just the land on the ground, but you can actually purchase the space above that land, especially when it comes to a place like the rail corridor. Um, it's a good opportunity for the city to make revenue or government, whoever owns that they're selling air to make revenue. They're selling air basically. And and so you can purchase stratified layers of that air, depending on how high you go. Yeah, um, and that was a critical piece as to why the rail deck project essentially failed. Um basically, we had a consortium owning different air rights.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and sorry, would they have purchased those from, I guess, CNRail, who who owns the corridor?

SPEAKER_01

I don't know the exact uh owner who owned it. I'm assuming it might have been CN Rail uh who decided to sell the air rights. Right. But what we had at the rail deck project, uh the rail deck park, was you had approval, but not approval on the air, right? Got it. You had you had approval to to you had a vision to develop a park, but unfortunately didn't own the land or the space required for that rail deck park. And so there were solutions proposed for that, and that was through could have been through expropriation, right? Which is uh, you know, essentially purchasing the land through a it's a different process, um, or you know, buying it outright. Um, that would have cost quite a bit of money. I believe the cost originally for the rail deck park was going to be around a billion dollars, but I think that was upgraded to around 1.6 to 1.7 billion. Um, and I believe a portion of that was part of it was to be for purchasing. Uh, and how would you get that money, right? So funding was also a big issue.

SPEAKER_00

Um, as it often is with the city. And I think that's that's part of the issue, is

How Rail Deck Park Could Have Been Funded

SPEAKER_00

we're talking about a project of such a grand scale, right? Uh, but cities are very limited in the way they can, you know, raise and and and spend money. It's not like it's the federal government where, you know, you can you can issue bonds or the province where you could just, you know, we're just gonna borrow a couple billion, it's always tighter for the city. And so I think that was a big part of it. Um, I think if you look at kind of when what went wrong, uh, you could definitely argue that, you know, had there been better coordination around the financial element of it, at the end of the day, you need money to make this kind of stuff happen. And as we see as we as we've seen with the city, whether whether it's the Gardner Expressway kind of falling into disrepair or you know, the fact that it was it was eventually uploaded to the province, like funding is an issue. And if you're relying on property taxes, like it's hard, how many property taxes do you have to you know raise to to fund uh you know one and a half billion, probably three by the time it's done billion dollar park? Probably, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

There were a few there were a few solutions to to figure out funding. Okay. Um, what I mentioned was uh some of them that I think the biggest one would have been development charges for the surrounding growth. Um they call it cash in lieu of parkland, uh, and stronger parkland dedication rules. So you you basically get cash from developers or you know, um to to try to fund parkland in in lieu of you building a park on your pro on your proposal, like downtown, let's say it's a condo, and so in lieu of building a park there, you pay the city cash. Right. And they can kind of pool it and then put it in. Right. And so there were there was quite a bit of um funds there in those in those in those funds. Um potentially getting the federal and provincial government to come forward with additional funding, but also potential sponsorships around the area, getting the the community around Relic Park to contribute, um, especially because everybody would benefit from a dedicated park space, 21 hectares of park space. Right. Um it basically connected north to south with Toronto, so it's connecting essentially Citigate to to Front Street, and so you would have a continuous walkable space where you can dedicated sparks park space. And so there were solutions identified, but I believe uh it wasn't enough to convince the uh the tribunal that this was a viable solution. So ultimately

The Developer Version of Rail Deck Park

SPEAKER_01

the province sided with the developers. So the developer proposal it was multiple condominium high-rises with parks in between, right?

SPEAKER_00

So I believe so basically still build on top of the rail corridor, you still got a little bit of public space as you navigate it, but you're talking like condo towers and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01

So the last time, I think the last figure I remembered was it was about 11 hectares of parkland. Cutting it in half. We all know that park space could be plazas in between the buildings, might not necessarily be lawn space. Whereas the Real Deck Park was proposing for dedicated lawn space, it was dedicated community gathering areas, spaces. Yeah, and so when you have high-rise condominium buildings, um it's just not the same.

SPEAKER_00

It's not the same, it's not the same. It's not the same. So the city actually went ahead and they went public with this. They gave it the approval, they uh altered the official plan, and they're saying, Okay, we're gonna do this. But I guess they hadn't locked down the air rights first, and that was a critical part of it. So it it sounds like at the end of the End of the day, the failure might have come from the fact that it wasn't coordinated with all the necessary bodies, whether you got CN Rail, the owners of the air rights, uh, and then also obviously those air right owners obviously were pushing for the condo version because without it, you know, the air is worth nothing, right? It's uh if you don't use it, it's worth worth almost nothing. So it's interesting how how that all played out. But um, let's talk about when the developers kind of showed up. Um you know, when it went to the tribunal, I believe it was 2021. Went to the tribunal when the decision was made. Yes. And and and so what happened

The Argument FOR the Condo Proposal

SPEAKER_00

when the developers showed up? Uh, what were they um essentially advocating for? And what was their argument?

SPEAKER_01

The alternative proposal for the rail deck park, like I mentioned, incorporated um adding housing supply, which was a huge um that was a huge that's a huge focus for for the province, especially to increase um housing supply through increasing density in the city of Toronto. And so when you have proposals that increase housing supply, um, I think that was a critical decision point, um, versus a rail deck park that added no additional housing. So one of the main um reasons for overturning that rail deck or for siding with the development uh proposal was that it did add uh additional housing supply to the city of Toronto, which is much needed on a provincial level. Right. But when you think about it this way, as realtors, you and I, we work with clients every day, we work with buyers and sellers. But in my experience, when you fast forward to today, the condo market is where it is because people don't want to live in a cramped space. They don't want to live in a sub 500 square foot uh unit. And even if you have two bedrooms, for example, we we were seeing, you know, we're seeing units now where the second bedrooms inside the unit. You don't have a real window. No window, yeah. Right? So it's a bit like a terrarium.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and it's like how much of that do you need? Arguably right now we're we're oversupplied with that, right? Right. And that's why the condo market is kind of doing doing what it what it what it is. So you know, I would say that's probably uh a bit of a lack of foresight, right? As to saying, okay, yes, we have this problem right now where we need housing supply right now, but you know, parkland is something we're gonna need forever. Right. Right. You build a park, it this that is forever. We're we're we're doing work for people 50, 60, 100 years from now, right, who will look back and and see this as a very critical decision. So yeah, I definitely see how that was uh that was a big part of it.

Why the Province Sided With Developers

SPEAKER_01

But I do understand where the province is coming from when it comes to align aligning with their housing goals. Uh especially there's so much opportunity here. I believe they proposed to add at least 3,000 units to uh to the to the airquarter area, which is again to kind of play the other side of it.

SPEAKER_00

That's very central, it's all on transit lines, like it is obviously a good place for housing. So I guess those two sides were kind of kind of going at it uh with each other. Um one of the things that uh the tribunal said in 2021 was that the the city didn't move fast enough on its own park plan. Uh do you think that's a fair criticism? Did the city fumble it, or was that just a convenient justification to kind of green light this development proposal instead?

SPEAKER_01

I think there were a lot of benefits looking at it from the provincial perspective. I think there were a lot of immediate benefits to the developer proposal, um, mostly from the perspective of housing for adding housing supply. Uh the city had their OPA, they were ready to move ahead into more additional steps to potentially begin construction within the next couple of years after that. Although this is probably, this was probably going to be a 10-year project, mostly phased, right? You might be able to enjoy in a few years, right, the beginnings of a rail deck park space. And then over the years, you have it fully developed into a complete park space, right? Um, so from the perspective of the city taking too long, I don't know. I think timing was an issue, but I think the crux of it was uh the city just didn't own the air rights that they needed to be able to implement something like a rail deck park. There was a possibility though to purchase those air rights for top dollar.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Um but you gotta compete with the millions of dollars they would have made if they they build a market.

SPEAKER_01

Probably wouldn't compare to the money that uh that you could have if you were to develop a condominium.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, totally. And and I imagine for the province too, and everyone, it's just a much more easy funding model where it's like, okay, well, sure, if they build their towers, then they can pay for the park, and you know we can build it all together.

SPEAKER_01

And from a funding perspective, it makes absolute sense because you have similar to what I was describing with Queen's Key and how the city encouraged developers to redevelop those open swaths of land. Same pattern here. It's why not have the developer pay for this rail deck park primarily, right? Um there are partnerships the developed developers are probably partnering with provincial bodies like Metrolinx because Metrolinx uh has a big role, especially on the rail rail corridor. So there will be provincial and federal, most likely will be federal and provincial funding involved to have this done in some capacity. Um, but I think for the most part, the developer is covering the bill.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, with a significantly reduced uh amount of park space. So

“This Was Our Last Shot”

SPEAKER_00

I believe right now it is um it is called rail deck district, I think nine towers, up to 72 stories in that corridor. Uh, and the park space is significantly reduced. It's only a fraction of what it used to be for the public, for people who love this project, people wanted to see it go through. How do you process that shift? Like what what how can we make sense of this? And and what do we do about the fact that, you know, like once this is built, it's that's it, it's done, right? And and we're running out of places you can feasibly put a park like this, especially in the core. This was arguably, I would say, our last shot.

SPEAKER_01

I agree. I think this was our last shot to have a legacy project in the city of Toronto that would meaningfully add real park space in the center of the city. We have great park spaces throughout. The city has done a great job of rezoning or reallocating open space and open land in the core for park space. It just doesn't compare to what a central park model would have been like for the city. Of course, not the same scale of a central park, but the same purpose where you can actually enjoy the open space and and escape away from the city. So, in terms of how to deal with this, uh for somebody who lives in the city of Toronto or works in the city, I really hope that there is some meaningful conversations with developers as they are working with the city now to develop an urban space that I hope that they are designing meaningful park space that I guess in in spirit would would achieve what the Rail Deck Park was trying to do. At the same time, I also hope that the units that are being built or designed for these towers, I hope they're bigger spaces, more family-oriented. I think that that was the biggest benefit of Rail Deck Park is that in order to develop uh a family-oriented livable space, you also have to um you have to build uh the park space needed for that. Right. And so I really hope that that's taken into account once uh the designs are finalized for this and they eventually start start building it out.

SPEAKER_00

Right, right. Would

Is Rail Deck Park Completely Dead?

SPEAKER_00

you say right now, like is this is it, is it gonna move forward like this? Like obviously they're subject to approvals and and and applications, but is is the original vision dead at this point?

SPEAKER_01

I would never say it's it's it's over, but um I think right now the focus is on developers working with government and the city to develop a solution that actually adds some meaningful park space. So I think I think there is a happy path forward where there will be some benefit, uh actually a lot of benefit to a development even like this, with Rail Deck Park uh being replaced with this developer proposal. I think you're gonna have some really nice meaningful spaces there, maybe for for gathering. Um maybe it might be a bit more urban. Um, but I do think it's better than it being an open rail court. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I think that's a fair point. If you compare it to what it is now, I think it'll definitely still be still be good. But what it could have been, I think that's something that I think we'll we'll all we'll all probably uh mourn. And and you know, obviously, I I guess uh in theory, yeah, because the province runs everything, like you know, if you had the political will, you could probably turn this thing around. But that brings me to my next question, is is you know, whether it's it's now at this stage or back then, what what do you think would actually have to be done to actually get something like this off the ground, away from the proposals and into yes, we are doing this and we're building it. What would you actually have to do? Because I think that can be a lesson for future proposals that come by.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I think there has to be a concerted effort to rally um citizens of Toronto to bring them together to actually push for an alternative again, to request for the province to reconsider the LPAT decision. I believe that that's a legally binding decision. So I'll have to re we'll have to review what that looks like. How do you overturn a decision like that? I'm I'm not sure what it is.

SPEAKER_00

Right, right. So maybe it starts with with with public, you know, the public has to kind of steer themselves that way. So hey, if you're watching this and you want the original rail deck park back, which by the way, I'm with you. Right, um, I think we should put our voices together and try to try to make this happen. I mean, yes, the towers version, it makes more financial sense, but uh you have to sacrifice sometimes, I think. And I think if you look back at whether it's it's Millennium Park in Chicago or or Central Park or any of the real meaningful decisions that were made to create these public spaces, like, yes, of course, there was a more financially feasible proposal out there, but they they they took the sacrifice, they put public needs first, and they they did something that maybe didn't make financial sense at the time, or maybe it was expensive, it was always expensive. Um, but but something like this is just like you you can't go back on it, like we were saying. And so I think um, you know, when I look back in in in the past, our past is full of people, I think, in the 70s, 80s, and 90s who were city builders, who were visionaries, who were thinking about the future and not necessarily about like my the pocketbook right now. Um and I think it'd be it'd be so great to be able to get back to that right now. And I think like, you know, I understand why we kind of lean more towards this like, hey, the developers will pay for it and build it. And you know, things will get done quicker. It just makes a lot more efficient sense. But from a long-term perspective, like we need that level of vision that to to to to build stuff like this. And, you know, I commend Mayor Torrey and whoever was involved with the city at the time of actually getting this off the ground. But um, yeah, I agree. I guess a more concerted effort with the province, with, with the federal government to move the needle, do what you have to do, and you know, do something that we're actually going to benefit from for the next hundred years.

SPEAKER_01

I think in terms of timing,

Why Now Might Actually Be the Time

SPEAKER_01

there is potentially an opportunity for this, maybe to be resurrected. Could be through actually through this development. I mean, now that the the real estate market is what it is, especially for downtown contracts. That's a good point. There's less of a business case to develop these high-rise buildings. They're not even gonna sell. People aren't buying them. We're at we're at near record high inventory numbers.

SPEAKER_00

As realtors, we see that. Right, right. And and to kind of like, you know, fill in the audience on on this matter too. Um, pricing has come down, but the cost of construction hasn't really come down. Right. Um, they've recently made something with the HST and the development charges to bring that cost down. But even still, like, you know, if you're running a new development right now, you'll struggle to sell that, right? And hit that 80% you need to construct. So maybe this is the moment that we are actually in need of where we can reconsider this and say, okay, the value prop is no longer there for the condos. Right. Let's do something different. And maybe, hey, this actually might be another good time to buy those air rights from the developers because they can sell low. They might need some money, right? And and do it. So um maybe I'm uh I'm a I'm a dreamer here, but I'm I'm thinking that I agree. I'm thinking it might uh might might be a good time to push and get that done.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, I I'm I'm I've been away from the city since 2023 and government in general. I pivoted to full-time real estate in 2023. And so I have been away from the conversation and and how things go are going right now, but you never know. There might be an opportunity to to maybe redesign the space to be a bit less dense. Right.

SPEAKER_00

Uh to maybe reduce some of those towers and increase the parkland. I think even that could be like a little mid midway, you know, meet in the middle kind of solution where maybe it's not okay dedicated park space, but you know, you add some like little commercial things there, like somewhere that we're you can get funding from as well. Um and uh yeah, maybe that's uh maybe that's a good in-between.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Let's

How Citizens Can Actually Influence Cities

SPEAKER_00

say people listening to this, they're they're fired up about a potential rail deck park or they want to see more park space in the city. What do they do? How do they get involved? How do they actually make their voices heard and try to steer the ship in the right direction?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I think the first thing is contact your local counselor because the counselor is going to be involved in anything happening within their ward or district. Um counselors are, in my experience, are more than happy to have the public involved and have their say, but also very excited about anything, any new project that's going to be happening. And during my time at the city, they would try to send out leaflets or or mail outs to owners within that district to come and participate in project proposals and uh community consultation sessions. So there are multiple opportunities to give your um to have your say and and give your opinion on future development. There are so many opportunities, even you can go to a council meeting or a community council meeting and and have your say and uh give your opinion on on a development or even a specific proposal in your neighborhood. Right.

SPEAKER_00

So I think I I've heard that uh just back of the napkin math, but it's like for every for every thousand people to feel a certain way about something, maybe one person will go and go forward and and and and say something. But you know, there there is actually a forum for this stuff. Like you can make your voice heard. You just gotta go through the process of reading the minutes and the books and the da da da. And so, you know, that's um that that's that's a part of it. On one hand, I I definitely agree with the fact that there is uh there are forums and and and things in place where people can make their voices heard. One of the things I've also seen, um, both myself and talking to people who've, let's say, been involved in the city, you know, or as citizens for 10, 20, 30 years, older folks, is they talk about this moving of the goalposts, right? Where it's like, you know, for example, like, yay, we're gonna do a park. Just kidding, we're gonna do half a park in this. Just kidding, the final version, and and it just kind of slides uh and the goalposts move. And so what's initially proposed to get their foot in the door is not always how it ends up. And of course, there's some level of um change and adaptation that's gonna happen through the process, but how do we how do we prevent that moving of the goalpost, do you think? Is there is there any way that we can actually do that?

SPEAKER_01

I think a lot of it has to do with political cycle. Um I'm not saying this is the reason for for all of moving the goalposts every time, but I think um politicians and counselors, and you can you can discuss this on a provincial level as well, even federal, that counselors are only there for a limited amount of time before they have to re-rerun, right? And so if your constituents are you know in favor of something, but it's a multi-year project that spans beyond your, I guess, your quote unquote political cycle, there's a risk of that falling apart with the change of the guard, yeah, or a new counselor coming in. And so I do believe there needs to be hopefully a better effort at the community level to keep these counselors or whoever comes into power decision-making positions um to keep them accountable, to ensure that you know initiatives that were highly favored at the time continue to get implemented.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, totally. It's it's um, you know, one of the things obviously we are thankful for our democracy and the fact that we have elections, but it's something that plagues, I think, governments at all levels. And you know, you see this kind of zigzag pattern often or something gets started and it gets changed. So I guess uh, you know, to your point, I think a very uh you know important part of that, obviously we we look to politicians to do what's good for us. But I think there's also responsibility that comes onto us to say, you know, if if enough people were to like say, hey, listen, this is something we want, like we want to continue with this. Um, I think their onus is also on us, the citizens, the people, to to hold them to that account and to make that clear to them. That's one way to kind of ensure this this continuity, I think.

SPEAKER_01

I think so.

SPEAKER_00

Uh

Why Chris Left Government

SPEAKER_00

before we wrap up, you know, we've been talking a lot about your time at the city, right? But one day came and you decided to leave. I did. Talk to me about that decision. What was the thing that made you decide that the inside track in government was not the right place for you?

SPEAKER_01

So, going back to what I wanted to be, I was a huge SimCity nerd. I wanted to be involved in city building. This is where it all starts, guys. SimCity is where it all starts with video games, right? Yeah, that's right. So essentially, I I wanted to be a planner. And I quickly realized that the city, when I joined, I I didn't necessarily want to be that anymore because as as amazing as that career is, um, it's really in the weeds. You're you it's it's a long grind, there's a lot of uh a lot of work involved um in areas that I wasn't you know totally gung-ho about. Um, I think for me, I was I was more interested in the project management side of things, the the oversight piece and and building uh more efficient processes through technology. I was a huge tech geek. So yeah, when there was an opportunity to join city planning from that angle, I I was so happy. And it was a career, I think a dream career for me. Um, but over time, as we as I was in the city and in government, um I decided to get my real real estate license in 2017 part-time. And over time, I started to like that job a bit more. Yeah um and I so slowly over the years realized that um I really would I felt more fulfilled helping family and friends or people, helping people um find their first home or or upgrade from a condo to a big house or a farm. And I really got more out of that. Um, and I wanted to. There were so so many years where my wife and I were discussing is this the time to leave? Is this the time to leave and and jump ship and move into a different career? I mean, I'm in my late 30s now, so at the time I was, you know, I was thinking I only have a few hustle years left, I guess you can call it. But um basically what happened is COVID hit, and that really introduced a lot of different perspectives. I went on paternity leave. I had my daughter in New York City, so she's happy, she's a half American, half Canadian. Um, and there was a lot of remote work, but it was also a time during paternity leave to really evaluate where I'm at, what I what I want to look for in a career and what fulfills me, especially for the next what 10, 20 years, you know, working before you ideally want to retire. Right. Um, so after paternity leave, I made the decision. I thought if there's any time to do it, it's now. And so I basically called up the manager at the time and I told her, I said, I'm not coming back. Oh man.

SPEAKER_00

And so You're the opposite of the Wolf of Wall Street guy.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_00

And it's like I am leaving. I'm leaving, right?

SPEAKER_01

And it's a huge risk because I I worked my whole life to work in government. And I I've been, I was so lucky to be able to have these job opportunities. And some people would say it's a stupid decision because I gave up, you know, um great pay, great benefits. I stability, all that stuff. Stability. I joined the city at a time um when I would have been qualified for they call it um Freedom 55. So when you turn 55 years old, you're eligible to retire, no penalty. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You get cash for life, basically. Right. That was the promise, right? And so um some people with a different perspective thought I was an idiot for basically leaving all of that. And I decided to, yeah, I decided to quit and uh it went all in. I I honestly thought this was gonna be a one-year experiment. Because I thought, you know, if I fall flat on my face, at least I can go on my knees, hands and knees, like begging to come back, right? Because I do believe, I do feel for you know my colleagues at the city, they I I think they were anticipating me to come back.

SPEAKER_00

But at the end of the day, I guess your your heart was more aligned with that more direct people service role.

SPEAKER_01

I wanted to be on the ground with end users, right? People who wanted to realize their dream of owning a home, but also identify okay, I'm a first-time homebuyer. Where do where could I buy? What are some up-and-coming communities to look forward to? And that is where I found intersection with my planning experience and yeah, and and like policy experience. Right.

SPEAKER_00

So you kind of got to see both sides of it, right? Behind the scenes, how it all works, and then go deal with the end users and help them. And so where that out exactly.

SPEAKER_01

And where I found a lot of passion, I that I love doing to this day, is looking through council documents, meeting minutes, um, you know, proposals, staff reports, and getting a preview of what a community is going to look like in five, 10, 20 years and relaying that to my clients.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I guess we're that kind of that that uh that conduit, right? That can kind of help bridge that gap. And that's that's definitely a meaningful, meaningful role.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, and saying with some degree of confidence that you could say, you know, you're not just buying this house because it looks nice today, but in in about five, 10 years, there's a proposal for a park or there's a there's a shopping, there's a shopping mall proposed down the road that you might enjoy right now, where it's just farmland, for example. Yeah, or a rapid transit project that's proposed in your area. So land values hopefully will go up, or you'll be able to enjoy the community. Community a bit more.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and so now that I'm I've been full time for a few years, um I don't think I'll go back. I don't think I would. It's 2025 was my best year in real estate. Nice, congrats. Me five years ago, uh, that would have been just a dream.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah. Congratulations, man. It's good to see the uh the evolution. And uh yeah, this has been great. Chris, thank you

Next Week / Outro

SPEAKER_00

so much. Guys, next week we have a very important guest here on the podcast. I'm really excited to get into it. Uh, you'll have to stay tuned to see that. So if you liked what you see here, uh if you want to learn more about uh the way things evolve in this city, and guys, we're we're gonna get into it all. Okay. We're gonna talk, we talked about planning today. We're gonna be talking to a lot of people who are directly involved in the city. Again, if it matters to life here between the lakes, if it affects where we live and how we grow, we're gonna talk about it here on the Between the Lakes podcast. This has been your very first episode. Uh, thank you to anyone who watched this far or listened this far. Uh, you can get it anywhere that podcasts are. Uh, so I look forward to being back here with you, and I look forward to embarking on this journey. Thank you, Chris, for being the first guest on Between the Lakes. Yeah. Thank you again, man. All right, signing off. See ya.