Pickering’s Mayor Kevin Ashe on Growth, Traffic & Big Decisions

As Pickering rapidly evolves, new questions are emerging around growth, identity, infrastructure, housing, transit, and the kind of future residents actually want to build.

Fahad Rehman sits down with Pickering Mayor Kevin Ashe for a wide-ranging conversation about the opportunities, pressures, and big decisions facing one of Ontario’s fastest-changing communities.

They discuss rapid development, traffic, transit planning, Northeast Pickering, property taxes, local politics, regional government, complete communities, and what Pickering could look like 10, 20, and 30 years from now.

Mayor Ashe also reflects on the realities of public office, difficult decisions behind the scenes, and what it takes to lead through a period of major transformation.

Between The Lakes is a podcast about the people, places, and hidden decisions shaping life across the GTA, Southern Ontario, and the communities between the Great Lakes.

If it affects where we live and how we grow, we’re talking about it here.

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Transcript

Intro

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I'm the fifth mayor of the city. My father was the first mayor. Tell me about a decision you've had to make that might have kept you up at night.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

I hear from people about affordability. My wife asks what nights you home for dinner. And it's usually only one or two times. I don't think we need to change our historic East Shore, Bay Ridges, West Shore, Rougemunt areas.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

Sure, you've solved the housing problem, but you've also created a massive traffic problem. You know, you can't run a Bruno's out of the base of a Mondo. No, no. Right? It kind of defeats the whole point. Exactly. Why right now is the right time to be deciding on Northeast Pickering's future?

SPEAKER_01 0:33

When people say we're rushing, and I don't think that's the case, the idea that we're going to flood South Ajax is outrageous.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Why are property taxes so high in Pickering compared to some of our neighboring communities? Although I get 100% of the blame, I only get 30% of the dollars. What happens if they do reassess?

SPEAKER_01 0:50

We don't need 29 counselors.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Some sort of light rail system that just kind of connects everything from the north, comes down, does a loop, Kingston Road.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

It's a pinch point that impacts Markham, Toronto, Pickering. We have the trumpification of say anything. Our political discourse has been diminished. I do have some regret that I probably wasn't my best all the time. And we're looking at getting a Costco up there. Really?

SPEAKER_00 1:16

What's your hot take? I think one of them's having an affair with the Amazon driver because he's there every day, right? What did they understand in 1945 that we may be forgetting today?

SPEAKER_01 1:25

It's like Yogi Berra says nobody goes there anymore, it's too busy.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Are we ever going to get windrow cleaning in the wintertime, which is like that road bump that comes at the end of the driveway? Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to Between the Lakes Podcast. I'm your host, Fahad Raymond. This is the podcast where we talk about where we live and how we grow here in this beautiful region between these great lakes. Today, my guest is a very esteemed guest. We've got Pickering Mayor Kevin Ash. Kevin, thank you so much for being here today.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Uh, thanks for the opportunity to chat.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Yeah, for sure. Really appreciate it. Um, here's the thing about Pickering right now. It is simultaneously one of the most interesting cities in the GTA. So much going on. Uh, but also by the same token, some people in the region don't even know where it is. They've never heard of it. Like I was getting a haircut the other day, and someone's like, Oh my God, you came all the way from Pickering. And it's like, it took me 20 minutes.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

Well, there's one thing I don't have to do, and that's get a haircut.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

Yeah, that's good. That's good. Saves yourself that part of it. Um, so you know, we're gonna be talking a lot about things that do affect the city. Um, I think a lot of residents will be interested to talk uh hear that stuff, but also things that affect life in this region generally, because I like to say Pickering is sort of a microcosm for life, not just in the GTA, but honestly across Canada in many ways. So we're gonna get into that. Um it's a city that's in the middle of a massive transformation, uh, a lot going on, again, like it is in other parts of uh the region and in parts of the country. Um and so as this is all happening, you're the mayor in the room, making the decisions, um, privy to it all, and and of course helping shape where it's going. So

How Mayor Kevin Ashe Sees Pickering Today

SPEAKER_00 2:59

uh before we get into the the meat of it, when you drive around Pickering today, what do you actually see?

SPEAKER_01 3:04

I see a changing landscape and a changing uh street shape and a changing uh buildings that are growing from the from the ground up. And I think that's exciting. Um I'm blessed to live in the city for 59 of my 64 years. So I saw it grow from a very small town to what's becoming a vibrant, connected, inclusive city, uh now 118,000 strong and growing. Yeah, and um, you know, we have certainly changed, and we're blessed to have a couple of things. We have a beautiful waterfront, we have transportation corridors, and uh not that far from City Hall, we have um trails and agricultural lands and and and and and the like. So we are very fortunate to uh live in an area where we do, and we're so close to the city, too.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Totally, totally. I I always am very grateful that I grew up in Pickering and uh yeah, it's always gonna be my hometown. I think there's there's not a lot like it, and I agree. We are we are blessed to have that. You've

What It’s Really Like Being Mayor

SPEAKER_00 4:08

been mayor now for about three and a half years. What has that experience actually been like for you?

SPEAKER_01 4:13

Well, some of your listeners and viewers uh might know, but I'm the fifth mayor of the city. My father was the first mayor in 1974. I was 12 years old when my dad was mayor. Uh so like I said, I've seen the city change. Uh I'm uh no stranger to politics, and I've no change stranger to the political game. So I've been on council for uh 19 years and I've seen those changes. Uh my role as mayor has really uh seen me more involved in uh community events, uh, both from an ethnic point of view, uh religious point of view, faith groups, as well as service groups. And I've I I I see, although we're 118,000 people in a growing city, I still get small town feel.

SPEAKER_02 5:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

You know, um people talk about um the TP drive in, and uh we're we're now law's uh is our rec center used to be the Odeon Drive in. Right, right. Uh the school I used to go to on Liverpool Road is now Condos, uh low rised at Holy Redeemer. So uh the city's changed, but I think it's changed for the better.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Yeah, totally. One of the things that's interesting, I think, is that like we we genuinely have a lot of people who are lifers there, right? Like people who remember all this stuff, who went to the drive-ins, and and it's a community where people actually come and stay and plant roots. And so I think that's um both a blessing, but it also I guess creates a little bit of an interesting dynamic when it comes to some of this change. And that's something that you know you've obviously had to navigate and and we'll we'll definitely touch on uh some more. You mentioned your father was the first mayor of uh was it Pickering Township or or

How Pickering Became a City

SPEAKER_00 5:48

or of Pickering?

SPEAKER_01 5:48

In 1970 before 1974, we were the township of Pickering in the County of Ontario, and then uh the uh Davis government started regional government in 1974. So uh the head of council before 1974 was the Reeve, and the head of council from January 1st, 1974 onward was the mayor. So we okay, we became the town of uh of Pickering in 1974, and then on January 1st, 2000, Y2K, we remember all that the world was gonna fall apart. We became a city.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

I see. Yeah, good time to do it, you know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, had your bets. So obviously, you you watched your father in this role and you have an ample experience on council, so you kind of knew what you were getting yourself into in a way. Still,

Surprises, Pressure & Sleepless Nights as Mayor

SPEAKER_00 6:33

is there anything that actually surprised you once you got in?

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Yeah, um, I I did uh have an opportunity during COVID to serve as acting mayor because Mayor Ryan was uh uh absent for medical reasons. Uh and I I I didn't use his office. I stayed in my office because it was it was his office, it's now my office. Uh and there is a lot more day-to-day uh briefings, um, staff work. Um and there's a lot of requests on your time. Um I'm uh in City Hall pretty much every day, and then I'm out in the community every weekend. So um uh my wife asks me usually on Sunday what what nights you own for dinner. And it's usually only one or two times uh uh a week. So um the the scale of uh of the job is big. Uh it's one that I sought and I hope to uh continue for a while.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Talking about that now, you're you're you're in the role of mayor now and and things are moving fast and there's so much so much happening and a lot you gotta be involved in. Tell me about a decision you've had to make that might have kept you up at night.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

I hear from people about taxes and I hear from people about affordability. So I have to make decisions because I I uh the the premier and the government gave gave strong mayors and I embrace those to do the budget. So I try and balance um uh that responsibility uh with a view about affordability because I I do hear from people struggling. Um just around the corner from City Hall is our food bank. It's lined up Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Fridays. Right. Um, but uh what I did uh with the budget, uh when I took over the budget, it was 3.99, it then went to 375 this year's 3.49. Uh compare that to the year I didn't do it, and council did it was 7.99. So the budget is a big job. You know, we're a hundred million operating about eight sixty to eighty to whatever million capital each and every year. Uh so that that that is uh a big a part of it. So that's really the the big thing that's top of mind uh about uh uh responding to people's concerns about affordability. Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

And I guess the budget is a place where you kind of really feel that push and pull because obviously the city needs funds, but then you you know the situation with people, and I guess you're you know you're cognizant of that. So I pay taxes too. Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. Let's zoom out for a second because, like I said before,

Pickering’s Growth, Condo Towers & the Pace of Change

SPEAKER_00 9:07

I think um pickering is actually a very useful lens to look at what's happening across the whole country right now, right? It's a microcosm. We have the development push versus the conservationalists. We've got uh left-wing voices on council and then some very right-wing voices on council. Uh, we're growing fast, and the existing population is really feeling those growing pains, I would say. So these are things that are happening in municipalities and provinces all across the country. So, what has it been like being right in the middle of this and having to navigate it?

SPEAKER_01 9:35

The uh pace of of change is um of concern to many. You mentioned uh our residents, some of them are lifers.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

So um they're seeing a skyline changing in terms of um condos. During the last election, you we you uh kind of made the debate center around the future of pickering in terms of condos. Right. But the reality is um since uh that election, we have seven that uh have been under construction. Three at uh university, two at center court, one at uh Viewpoint, and then um uh Orchard Villa, which is approved by an MZO. So um we we had much debate about those 75 condos, which is actually now planned many more. It's more than that. Yeah, so it's almost about 100,000.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

Um but the reality is the market's changed.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

Uh so being in the middle of it, uh, we have to be mindful that um people are concerned about that. But I see the condo market as an entry in the marketplace for a lot of young families, or the exit to the marketplace for seniors who want us, the lifers who want to stay. Uh and all those uh buildings I talked about are all in our city center. Uh so there hasn't been the peripheration of condos along Kingston Road. They've all been in our city center. They're transit supported. Um, you know, many of these places, uh, you're a realtor, you know, less than half the less than half the parking spot is sold per unit. Uh people are using uh transit, GoTrain, uh Rapid Bus, um, Uber, whatever. Uh parking spot now costs $55,000 to $75,000. That's a lot of money, uh, especially for a young executive or a family. Um, so being in the middle of it, I completely understand people's concern. Uh so we have to build in a responsible, managed way.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

On that note, there are people in Pickering and

Who Wins and Loses When a City Grows?

SPEAKER_00 11:45

elsewhere that, you know, obviously there's some people who support this all, they understand they want to grow. There's many who are actually very excited about the city that we can build. And there's people who, you know, like we said, are prefer the older ways. They miss the drive-ins, they miss the empty roads when the 401 was just a wee little, you know, they miss all that. Um, and they might feel like their city is being taken from them, at least the city that they they knew. Is there a version of this that works for everyone, or will there be winners and losers?

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Well, I think our growth um will happen. So it's a question of instead of jumping in front of a train, jump on the train and try and steer it. And I think um having uh development uh of height in our city center along our transit corridor is the way to go. I I don't think we need to change our historic uh east shore Bay Ridges, West Shore, uh Rougemunt areas. Um I I I think they can be protected. We have other growth areas in Seaton, only 30% built out. And we are currently in the process of making decisions about Northeast Pickering, which is 70,000 more people, 10,000 more jobs, but a decade to three decades away. So we have to plan for the long term. We have to plan for the long term, yeah. But we have to plan for the long term. So we're better to have our density though in our city center. Uh so yeah, I'm excited about that. It protects the character of some of those uh uh neighborhoods. I grew up as a kid in Bay Ridges, grew up as a young adult in in West Shore and my group uh grew my family there as well. So uh I get it.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Yeah, no, it makes sense. Um is there anything that we can do to actually like kind of balance the deal if they feel like hey, you know, we had it this way and now we're having to compromise on maybe traffic or transition. Is there anything that we can do to actually balance that deal for them and make it feel like you know they're getting something out of it too?

SPEAKER_01 13:39

Well, I think um as we grow, we're we're and as we get farther away from um our formation of a town and a city, we're seeing renewal of our uh our infrastructure. Uh we're opening a brand new uh rec center uh in Seton, $250 million. We're opening the new Dorsey Community Center in in Greenwood, uh attached to our museum, which will have uh our archives exhibit space. Uh we have an award-winning library uh that's uh continuing we invest in. So we're seeing um the investments that are happening uh and also the growth that we have been doing in the last couple of years, we've been rewarded uh from the Building Faster Fund. I I'm one of a handful of municipalities that have uh exceeded their target for all three of those years. And those monies, uh 5.2 million, 5.2 million, and hopefully the same uh for last year, is used for road infrastructure. Um so we're paving more roads that that need it. So there is some benefit from our growth, uh, but I completely understand people worried about the lifers that you talk about.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

I'm a lifer. Yeah, yeah, right, right, right. Awesome. So let's get into some of the specific issues here because obviously there's a lot on the table, a lot happening right now, especially as we head into uh potential election time as well. So let's

Can Transit Keep Up With New Housing?

SPEAKER_00 15:08

talk about housing. We're currently approving thousands of new homes, uh, but the transit to move those people around is not really being planned or you know implemented at the same pace. If tens of thousands of people are added to the same roads, sure you've solved the housing problem, but you've also created a massive traffic problem. So, how do we build what we need without making gridlock the price that people have to pay for it?

SPEAKER_01 15:32

Couple things. Uh the government of uh Ontario is widening the 401 uh as they continue to go east. The government uh is doing an EA right now for the doubling of the size of Highway 7. Uh I'm uh actively on the file about the twinning at uh Taunton and Steels to make so necessary. There's pinch points there that uh uh we we have to do better. Right. Uh the rapid bus line is is starting at uh the Scarborough border and will be working its way east for east through uh Durham. And finally the GO train. Uh the GO train uh we need to have express trains back on, and we need to get to the point where people don't look at a schedule of the GO train, they just show up. And there's just like this subway. You don't know when the subway is coming, you show up and you wait for the next one. Right. And I think we need to have that type of frequency so that it it's uh uh it's meaningful for people and a real alternative to the car. And I mentioned uh those new housing uh units in our city center 0.4, 0.5% per unit of a parking space. So uh I get it, um, but we gotta do we we gotta do more connection between uh road systems from east to west, um, and we gotta make transit work for people.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

Yeah. Also, I guess north-south becomes an issue too, with all the stuff happening in the north.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

White's road, it's not really that White's Road's gonna be have to be widened. Uh Brock Road north of Taunton is two lanes, gotta be wide. Yeah, sure. All those things gotta happen. Yeah, yeah. And especially, you know, we uh had the the fortunate of them taking off the tolls, but that ends at Brock. People now get off at Brock, and there's they go down to the 401 because they have to pay then.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

And it's too too late. So we have to do that.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

Yeah, for sure. For all Durham region, really, you get into Oshawa and all that stuff. So those are all good things.

Are We Losing Too Much Retail Space?

SPEAKER_00 17:27

Um, one of the things that we're seeing with this transformation is that it's kind of a trend that's happening all over North America. Uh, you've got a existing plaza, right? Little uh row of stores, and then you have these massive parking lots. Developers, landowners are realizing that, hey, there's a lot of value here, and there's obviously a demand. So these plazas are being converted into high density, usually residential. So, and you know, obviously that serves our housing needs, and that's great, but one of the consequences of that is that there's an erosion of commercial space that's happening. In many of these situations, there's actually a net reduction in commercial space that's that's occurring. So, um, what do you, as mayor and council, have the power to do to ensure that we're not like adding tens of thousands of residents, but then like taking away from commercial space? Is there anything that you can actually do in that regard?

SPEAKER_01 18:11

Well, uh, as a for instance, uh we had our planning meeting on Monday and uh the plaza at Pickering Parkway in Brock, which is now where Staples is and corresponds and all that. There are gonna be 13 towers. That's right. But you know, it's seven, seven phases, so they they'll be able to uh move some commercial um tenants around and then relocate them. Uh and that's one of the questions that counselors pose to these what's your plan to support the mom and pop rather than uh the the chains, although the chains are important. And also, you know, we're seeing a changing marketplace in terms of retail. Um, you know, you look at my house where I have two adult daughters and my wife, uh, I think one of them's having an affair with the Amazon driver because he's there every day, right? So uh, but I think we do have to have an adult conversation about uh protecting those uh commercial and uh uh and supporting them in terms of how that development can occur, being mindful to the surrounding communities as well as those commercials, because small business is the backbone of our economy, too.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Right, that's it. I mean, these are the spaces where people will start the businesses, and it's the you know, it's the local coffee shop you go to or that cool store, and and this is how people spend their time.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

And so I can tell you, you know, right at Rougemount in Kingston Road, we have uh uh plans uh now for four condos where Bruno's is Bruno's, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

Bruno's is kind of legendary, I think. Absolutely. Yeah. So is the dentist, so is the the uh um uh fruit store there and and uh uh and and the restaurant.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

So it seems like you're you know you're kind of on the same page about the importance of it, but still when when you see these proposals come in, it's like maybe they have one little store. Like, and it's just not you know, you can't run a Bruno's out of the base of a condo. No, no, right? Uh and and so these things are being eliminated. And when you look at it in totality, sure, it might be 10, 20, 30 years away, but this stuff's going. And without that, it's like what if if we're just residential condos? Yeah, I think that's something people look at and yeah and are weary of.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

I think we need uh more streetscape than a tuck shop. We need um a mixed use, uh maybe an office component as well as a retail component as well as a restaurant component in all of these, because you have a captive audience too. And you have to be mindful about we're still suburbs, we still need a car to run in and run out, as opposed to we're not we're not Toronto. They don't want to be Toronto.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Yeah, right, right.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

And we're not right beside a subway.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

So yes, and these things are all important. So I think this kind of bridges into my my next question,

How to Build Condos the Right Way

SPEAKER_00 20:56

which is typically these towers in Pickering are are mostly residential. Maybe you've got a little bit of commercial space at the base, but you know, the the the reason the condo model works downtown is because you'll have these mixed-use developments. Maybe you have some office in there, uh, or you've got an actual grocery store at the base, and then a coffee shop, and then another store, and a restaurant, and the entire ground floor is usually retail, and that works so well because you know, I need something, I can just go downstairs. There's a grocery store, it's across the street.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

And I I think that's the model that Center Court's looking at for their 55-acre master plan on on the uh uh site now called the shops at Pickering City Center. They're gonna have components of retail uh in in in their base, including restaurants, coffee shops, and the like which is good within their kind of walkway.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

So that one I think that is, I think, a little bit of a unique one. And it's of course the big one, so it's important. And they also have the the mall next door. So that I think creates that dynamic well where you know you have that walkability. Maybe you don't need to get in the car, right? You can go to the grocery store, you can do your things.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

Another smaller example is uh San Francisco by the Bay, where they do have six, eight tons. Some retail, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

Domino's and you know, some pharmacy and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Ticket cleaners and stuff like that. Yeah, which is which is good. So what what we need uh as I see in Toronto is these kind of small uh food shops that are kind of quasi grocery stores with rap rabbi, rabba?

SPEAKER_00 22:17

Yeah, yeah, uh yeah, exactly. Uh a little like mini, mini longos, right? Market by longos or something. Um and and that's the stuff that really works. And so I think it's great that we see it in some of these, but in a lot of them, we're just not seeing that. So again, just to kind of re-reask that question, is there anything that you can do? Because uh it seems like you see this and you recognize it. What can be done as mayor and as council to like kind of push us in that direction? Because you can only build the stuff once, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Yeah, well, I mean, we can demand more commercial landowners and developers want as few as possible. We want as most as possible. We want an affordability uh uh component in some of the towers where they fight us on that, right? So I think it's a a bit of um compromise. Um they also have the right of appealing, which they do sometimes when we don't come to a successful outcome. But uh, you know, we have generally a good a good relationship with the investors in our city who wanna who want to build, you know, the the universal uh city, uh Chestnut Hill, they're now on San Francisco Bay. Yeah, I guess what their eighth tower? Eighth tower. Um Center Court's on one, two, they're gonna have many more.

SPEAKER_02 23:30

Yeah, so digits.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's uh that's a good point. And and uh I do think commercial is is really important to that. Uh like I said, you go you only build it once. And so I think, you know, if we're if we're approving these developments, there's certainly a lot in it for them. And obviously they're fulfilling the need to providing housing, but

Universal City & Pickering’s Missed Retail Opportunity

SPEAKER_00 23:59

that erosion of commercial space, for example, I guess Universal City, it would have been such a great opportunity. Like, like that whole that is thousands of people in that little block. No grocery store, no, no, no shopping center, no, no uh I don't even think there's a coffee shop, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:12

There's this I I think there is plans uh because the Grand, uh which is the two northern towers, which are under sales, I think now. Uh there's plans for something in there. But I agree with you. These people, many are walking to the GO training.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

They would love uh they would love something nearby, right? And that's a pub. Uh yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, right. And this is and then again, that's that feeds businesses, right? That's local business, that is convenience for people, and it's also, you know, less car journeys. And and that is part of, you know, having lived in a condo, that's what makes it work. And if I had to, if I had to drive everywhere from my condo, which is unfortunately in something like a universal city, it's kind of the norm right now. Um, that would just kind of ruin it. And so I think that would be a great thing to do is is just to use that power. I think we're I think, you know, like you said, there's great relationships with these developers and they get what they want often.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

So I think it might be all right to, you know, I think it is a compromise. I think it's a give and take, um, both on the services and the amenities as well as uh affordability.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

Let's talk about car dependency.

Car Dependency in Pickering

SPEAKER_00 25:16

So um we kind of touched on this a little bit. Pickering is ahead of its housing targets, right? You we're one of the few municipalities that are actually getting those bonuses from the province and we're actually exceeding those targets, which is great. So there's several thousand new units in the pipeline. Um, what do you say to people who are concerned about traffic from these new residents, um, especially given kind of what we've been talking about, if not all the developments have commercial below in, it might necessitate more car trips. How do how do we really solve that problem?

SPEAKER_01 25:44

A couple of things. We have to um, where we can uh give more capacity to our roads and we have to make transit work for people. I mean, I've lived in the city for 59 years. I can I I can count on my hand how many times I've been on the bus.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

But I'm car dependent. Although on the other hand, I often go to the city and I take the GOAT, but I drive to the I drive to the GOAT train.

SPEAKER_02 26:13

Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

Uh or take an Uber. Um so we we have to make transit work for people, not only from uh uh getting to the GO train station, but for everyday life, uh for for students, for young people uh living, for for seniors using groceries, et cetera, et cetera. And we need more capacity. Uh I really think we need another exit off the 401. Uh Brock Road, uh, which is about to become another nightmare for a couple of months because of construction. Because of the upgrades that are happening there to be better. White's Road backed up lots at night.

Does Pickering Need to Think Bigger on Transit?

SPEAKER_01 26:49

Do you think we need to think bigger on transit? 100%. Um I talked about uh the need to um have the GO train just as a matter of go show up. I think uh we're having a conversation about the Alto, the high frequency rail and high-speed rail, uh, which would connect our major cities of uh Toronto, Ottawa, Quebec City, Montreal. Uh and I'd love to be part of some type of connection with Scarborough. You know, the they're gonna extend uh light rail or or or or subways out to Scarborough. We're not that far from them. The Durham Rapid bus lane uh will be starting uh from Altona Road right through to Oshawa. Uh Pickering is the is the first go at it.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

That'll help for sure.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

Absolutely. And I think long term uh we'll have medians, so people traffic will be going faster east-west uh with less uh turning. Uh I think long term the answer for transits like they do in York down

Durham BRT, Kingston Road & Transit Pinch Points

SPEAKER_01 27:53

the middle. Uh we do have the historic downtowns of Whitby and Pickering Village pinch points. Pinch points very hard. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Uh very hard. If I'm not mistaken, the current plan, it it doesn't, it's no longer gonna be dedicated lanes in those areas, right? Which kind of defeats the whole point. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

It's like uh and we have one too, uh, where the rail line is, right at east of Fairport.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

Okay, right, right.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

The the bridge is uh is gonna be um it's a pinch point. It's a pinch point. I mean, is there any way around that? Because it just seems like you could tunnel, uh you could maybe do um the the bus lane through the hill type thing. Right. Um but th that's another pinch point. Uh I think the bus uh rabbit bus is something. The um it won't be so rapid if it's stopping at the place. Pulse 90 has a success story. The pulse. Yes. Uh people are using it to get back and forth to get to the university as well in in North Oshawa. Uh and we need it to be equally successful in going into the Toronto to to to hook up with the DVC.

Northeast Pickering: A City Within a City?

SPEAKER_00 28:53

Let's talk about Northeast Pickering. So for those who don't know, Northeast Pickering is an area roughly north, basically north of Ajax. Yes, right. Uh currently just all green space. And um there is a big secondary plan being planned and talked about and discussed right now uh to develop a lot of that portion. And you said what potentially roughly 70,000 residents up there eventu uh eventually.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

70,000 people, 10,000 jobs.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

10,000 jobs, yeah. So effectively like a city within a city, kind of, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

I mean, you uh think of uh Belleville, 60,000 people. Yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

Just like that. That's right. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

Uh so yeah, it's it's uh it's a city within a city.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

So uh if I'm not mistaken, council just deferred that vote on that on uh Northeast Pickering?

SPEAKER_01 29:40

It's coming back to our council meeting on the 27th of April. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Okay, got it. Tell us how we kind of got to where we are and why right now is the right time to be deciding on Northeast Pickering's future.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

Northeast Pickering has been in uh what's called the White Belt. Uh White Belt is kind of planned for the future for over 20 years. There was a process initiated at the region called Envisioned Durham, where we looked at growth areas, and uh Northeast Pickering was included in in the Envision Durham, uh, and that was approved in May of 24. Actually, Northeast Pickering was delayed until December, but the the the government uh approved the envisioned Durham for Northeast Pickering in December of 24. So we're 16 months later. Secondary plan studies have been going on for five years. So when people say we're rushing, and I don't think that's the case, uh, although I I understand there's a perception about that, but the reality is the secondary plan is the beginning of a process, it's not the end of a process. It kind of sets the framework, right? Right, it sets the framework for what studies are being required. It kind of puts placeholders on where what it can be what can be developed and and when and where. Uh and it's also important to know that if it's not city initiated, a developer can bring in their own um secondary plan. And the policies and and financial safeguards would would be absent from that. And it's appealable uh if we for whatever reason don't uh turn it down.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Right, right. These appeals go to the province, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:16

Well, they go to the Ontario Land Tribunal, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

And then who appoints that? Is that appointed or is that the Ontario Land Tribunal is appointed by the province? Appointed by the province. So effectively the decisions go up to the province, and then if they want to move forward with something, it's it's gonna happen effectively. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

The Ontario Land Tribunal is uh quasi-judicial, hopefully arm's length, but it does uh make decisions that support pro provincial priorities, no doubt about it.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

Right, right, right. Makes sense. So I guess the reason to do it now is to be able to get ahead of all of that and and and set the stage. So let's say this goes forward and you know we create the secondary plan. When should people expect actual development, shovels in the ground if if this goes through?

SPEAKER_01 31:58

I would think uh infrastructure um would take into the early 30s. So you're talking six years anyway, and I think build-out would be twenty years after that. So we're talking about twenty fifty-one. Wow. Which is kind of our our our long-term

Flood Risk, Conservation & Northeast Pickering

SPEAKER_01 32:18

goal. That's 25 years.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

Yeah, okay. And I I guess you've heard the concerns about the flooding and the water systems and all that kind of stuff. Like, what can you speak to on that? Like, I I would I would imagine that they wouldn't build if that was going to be the case, but I don't know the specifics. Like have you what have you heard as mayor on that topic? And what can you do to reassure people that if this is happening, it'll happen responsibly?

SPEAKER_01 32:41

It obviously will happen responsibly. Uh waste, uh, rainwater, um, stormwater, you have to maintain it or or control it. I think that the um idea that we're gonna flood South Ajax is outrageous. I think uh we have a moral responsibility to protect that watershed of Carthage Creek. Uh I think that with modern um stormwater uh technologies, that water quality can be better controlled and probably increased. Um people have some belief that farming is clean. The reality is the creeks um from animal waste, chemical runoff, all those things uh are not necessarily good uh from a farming perspective, although there's farm land that's important. Uh so the modern way of dealing with storm runoff is far cleaner than a typical way that you farm. So um I can assure people that uh we're mindful of this. We also are mindful that uh, you know, we've already had two watershed studies. There's gonna be a third watershed study on this. TRCA is a full partner, Toronto Region Conservation Authority. And uh we want to work collaboratively um with farming community, environmentalists, uh, as well as uh potential landowners.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

Right. And I think one thing that you know I've seen through my work in real estate is that you know, a community it doesn't get built, it doesn't get approved unless there's a plan for stormwater management. Right, right. Like the storm, there's like integrated lakes within each community. Then you got the the little drains in the backyards and everything.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

And you have uh either a stormwater pond or you have uh now underground tanks. Uh you have to you have to deal with these items. You can't convey your water somewhere else. You have to deal with it. So um you're quite uh correct in saying um uh you know, people thinking we're gonna flood South Ajax. It's uh it's a in my view of fantasy.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

So yeah, I I think it's one of those things where it's like a valid concern, but then once if you were to know in the process what actually happens, like it's like they you can't just let that happen. It's a major major violation of property rights and everything like that, right? So exactly, yeah. Yeah. You mentioned the TRCA. I believe they've they've identified that there it it does increase some sort of flood risk from this.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

Um mitigated.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

That's the that's the key in it. Right. Okay. So then basically you work with them to make sure that it's being mitigated correctly.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 35:11

And at that point it can move forward.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

I think the numbers are like it's 77% more likely to flood downstream if there's no mitigation. Well, uh obviously you you've uh quite like rightly articulated that it's a legal requirement to mitigate uh the storm water.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

So makes sense. So

The Transit Plan for Northeast Pickering

SPEAKER_00 35:30

with Northeast Pickering, with a plan that's this ambitious, city within a city, where is the ambitious transit plan and the road plan that might come with it?

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Um well, it is on the 407. Uh I I would envision um at some point we're gonna have some type of transit corridor along the 407, perhaps in the between. Uh we need to uh have better connections between north and south. Uh we try and do most things east and west. Yes. Toronto is where we're going, but uh northeast Pickering is uh we'll have to have Northeast.

SPEAKER_00 36:06

That'll change that, right? Because a lot of people coming down to the city center, especially once we have a downtown.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

Yeah, we need we need more we need more north um south connectivity. I actually was um in Europe last year, and I I I went on a group study to to learn about two things. One was a gondola, and two was tiny homes.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

Um, in and these were in world-class cities. Paris has a gondola for transit, and Amsterdam has tiny homes. Uh because we're looking at a gondola for public transit up Simcoe Road. It's Oshawa, right? That's Oshawa.

SPEAKER_02 36:38

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

Um and the tiny homes, I think, you know, these tiny homes were not shacks, they were beautifully designed, cool, um, but compact.

SPEAKER_00 36:50

And uh, yeah, some of them are pretty impressive what they can do what they can do.

SPEAKER_01 36:53

100,000 euros, you know, we're talking about 180,000 uh dollars for um one or two or a small family. So uh, you know, there's there we gotta we gotta look to other places in the world that have dealt with these issues that Pickering and GTA in Ontario are dealing with now.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

Right, right. If I could dream for a bit, I I feel like you know, some sort of light rail system that just kind of connects everything from the north, comes down, does a loop, Kingston Road, back up Taunton, you know, like it's like some like and across to Alto uh with the lace rail right to go out to Pearson. That's right, and it's all connected. That would be something that's that that's good. And I totally agree with with

How Do You Actually Build Ambitious Transit?

SPEAKER_00 37:31

your premise of let's look at what's working around the world. I guess the question is in when it once it gets to practicality, like how do you build something like that, right? Like, because what what does that take and and what's the city's role in that?

SPEAKER_01 37:42

Well, um this is big idea, big ideas, uh, which are expensive ideas. But we're seeing a transformation of transit in Toronto. We're seeing transit uh lines being built for the first time in decades.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

Uh Eglinton Crosstown took decades. Uh Finch West open. They're looking at Finch uh East, Ontario Line, Ontario Line, as well as this. Uh I heard Mayor Chow talking about uh what we're gonna do for Scarborough. Scarborough is our our border. We're we're right beside them. We're a long par five away uh from Scarborough. So uh we have to have big big big thinking. But I've gone to some of these world-class cities, and the reason they're world-class is because of transit.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

That's it. Yeah, right? That's it. London, Paris, yeah, Amsterdam. Can you imagine without it? Yeah, it just who would want to live there? And it kind of just kills everything. So, you know, as we build up, I mean, you know, you mentioned we're at, you know, X number of double-digit, you know, towers built or or or under construction. We've got potentially many, many more in the pipeline. We will be a city. We're gonna be like, there's gonna be an urban element to our city. There's gonna be obviously the suburban element too. Without transit, it's just like it's it kind of just kills it, right? And so again, like what what what do you think can be actually practically done? Because I I understand it there's a bit of a uh responsibility sharing element between the the region, the municipalities, and the province when it comes to transit. So, how can we be ambitious? If there's people out there who listen to this and say, yes, we would like something like that. And it seems like, you know, you would like something like that. Like, what can we actually do to move something like that forward? What would it actually take in theory?

SPEAKER_01 39:24

Well, I think um most of our population is kind of south of Taunton, uh, south of Roslyn, really, yeah. Uh across the five lakeshores. Uh, I think what you said about light rail, wouldn't it be great to have one across Taunton Road? Totally. Because all the growth is happening in North Pickering, in in in Brooklyn, in uh North Oshawa, as well as Clarington. So if we can have that type of thing right across our region, connecting to the GO stations, all the kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 39:54

Just running all the time and it's on its own dedicated tracks as it you know just goes smoothly.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

But that's a Metrolynx uh and Metrolinx uh besides the Go train is very Toronto focused. So we have to we have to expand that boundary.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

Okay, so you gotta make some calls, is what you're saying.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

Yeah, yeah, but you know, but we I started my chat today about Taunton Road and Steels. Steels Road should not be uh one lane. One and one, no. It it's a pinch point that impacts Markham, Toronto, Pickering. And um those are some of the things we have to we have to jointly work together.

SPEAKER_00 40:27

So right, right. I guess it starts with that before you could talk about a light rail. Yeah, yeah, no. That that that all makes sense. So I hope that there's more we can do there, and I hope you fight the good fight and try to bring uh bring some of that ambitious transit in with these ambitious residential plans. Now let's talk about something that uh I I imagine you get a lot of conversations about. We kind of touched on a little bit,

Why Are Property Taxes High in Pickering?

SPEAKER_00 40:47

property taxes. Yep. So uh a direct question. Why are property taxes so high in Pickering compared to some of our neighboring communities? Especially when we benefit from, like you said, those new housing bonuses. Uh we have development charges, we got casino revenues, and you know, like where is that money going? And and and why can't we see lower rates again compared to some of our neighbors?

SPEAKER_01 41:09

If we compare uh the neighbors to the east, Pickering does have the lowest tax rate of the five Lakeshore municipalities. Having said that, we're much higher than Toronto.

SPEAKER_00 41:20

And the reason for that, uh Toronto Markham, uh leave on as well.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

Uh is business. Uh simply put, Toronto's residential taxes are artificially lower because of all the success they've had as being a financial center. And that's why, you know, 85% of my tax revenue comes from the property tax base, 15 from um from commercial and institutional and and in industrial. So we have to do better there. And we're doing some things with the 407, we're have this brand new FGF, we have Kubota's head office there, we're about to make some other announcements. So the answer to it is having more businesses. Basically, for every dollar you pay in property taxes for a resident, a farm pays 10 cents, a business pays two dollars and twenty cents. So that's where you got to change that focus. It'd be great if we could go from 85.15 to 75.25, those types of things. The other thing is, although I get 100% of the blame, I only get 30% of the dollars. Uh, when you pay your taxes, uh, 55% goes to the region, uh, 15% approximately, 13 actually, goes to the province for education. And I get about 31 cents on the on the dollar. The region looks after police, transit, social services, uh, garbage pickup, uh, those types of things. So it's very expensive and uh getting more expensive because uh a lot of things that arguably should be paid for by a different level of government have been downloaded to uh the property tax base.

SPEAKER_00 43:01

And as I understand it, there's there's some changes happening with the region, which we'll we'll we'll talk about

MPAC Assessments: What Happens When Values Go Up?

SPEAKER_00 43:05

a little. One thing I wanted to ask you is I know that uh the uh impact assessments for residents is they're kind of frozen at 2016 valuations, right? Uh for those who, you know, you look at your property tax bill, it gives you a home valuation, and that's of course much lower than what your home is probably worth. Right. I know they were looking to reassess and then COVID happened. And and do you know if they're still looking to do that or what the plan is there? And and what happens if they do reassess and how does that how will that all play out with with property taxes?

SPEAKER_01 43:32

The the date of our assessments are January 1st, 2016. A lot has changed. Right. Um so I think the government uh should update our assessments, but also have some transition uh in terms of protection. Because if everybody's tax assessment went up thirty percent on average, your taxes wouldn't change. It's the person that goes up forty percent when everyone else has thirty percent that would impact it. So So when they've done this in the past, they've capped the increases so that there's a transition. I think the government has to do it at some point. Yeah, it's just kind of kicking it. It makes no sense. Yeah. I look at my assessment and it says, you know, $600,000 and I paid a million dollars for my townhouse. Yes. Right. Right, right, right. Which is kind of crazy in itself. But uh that's that that's the market. So if your assessment goes up more than the average, you will pay more. If your assessment goes down up less than the average, your taxes will go down.

SPEAKER_00 44:32

Is it correct that if that were to happen and you know everyone's collective assessments go up, does our effective tax rate go down? Is that is that how it would work? Yes, that's right. So that it will effectively be equal to that. Okay. So you really only have to worry about that delta between the average. And and if you're above the average. That's right. I see. Okay, okay. Sounds good. I think I'll be reassuring to people that they're not going to be looking at a 30% uh property tax increase whenever that happens. So that's that's good. Um let's

Regional Chair Changes & Durham Governance

SPEAKER_00 44:57

talk about the regional chair, um, because we know that the province just tabled legislation. They want to give regional chairs, certain regional chairs, uh, kind of strong chair powers and also to appoint them, including the ability to pass bylaws with just one-third council support. As a mayor of a you know, pickering, which is I guess under the region. How do you feel about that?

SPEAKER_01 45:18

The strong uh mayor's powers were given to support provincial priorities. Um I have not used a veto power or b um uh bylaw power to pass things on one-third. I've uh used it only for the budget and as well as the reporting relationship of the CAO. And I delegated all the other reporting relationship for the CAO. So uh how it works at the region, I think we need change. We need change at the region. We don't need 29 councillors, in my humble opinion.

SPEAKER_00 45:55

29, eh, for the region?

SPEAKER_01 45:57

29. Yeah, it's a lot. Uh yeah, and um you know we have 28 plus the chair in for eight municipalities. So I I think um with technology, with uh allowing to have substitution, I think one of the chief uh jobs that the new chair, him or her, will be to restructure government. Uh the government made the decision in Niagara and as well as in Simpo to get rid of counselors, yeah. Uh make it mayors only. Right. Uh in Niagara at 12.

SPEAKER_00 46:29

And what do you think about that? Do you think that's that's the right the right way for doing it?

SPEAKER_01 46:32

I think there's uh in between. I really think there could be my model would be one mayor and one counselor from each municipality type thing. That would be 16 plus 16 versus 28. 28 plus it plus the chair.

SPEAKER_00 46:45

Plus the chair, right, right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:46

So that will that would effectively almost cut it in half. And um twenty-eight people in a room is it's it's hard.

SPEAKER_00 46:55

And you're gonna wait you're gonna waste a lot of time. You're gonna have a lot of back and forth.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

That's not really now. Uh Durham had made a decision uh through a referendum to have a direct election. We're one of only two in the province, uh Halton as well. Durham residents had made a choice, but the government has the right to do this, so we have to make sure that we uh uh do it the correct way.

SPEAKER_00 47:18

Okay, so you you would be in favor of some sort of restructuring of it? You think it does need to be skimmed down? 100% but not necessarily eliminated. You think there still is a role for the region and and it should stay?

SPEAKER_01 47:28

The region spends two billion dollars a year. Sure there's a role.

SPEAKER_00 47:31

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 47:32

And they do important things. We do ambulance, they do police, they do we just talked about transit and the the need for us to think bigger. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

And our municipalities are smaller, they can't handle that by themselves. It makes sense to pull that.

SPEAKER_01 47:44

At the city of tr uh Pickering, we're about 200 billion. At the region, we're 2.1 billion, ten times the size. Right. Um so the the region does important things, uh, social housing, old age homes, uh picking up your garbage when you flush your toilet. That's the region that's looking after water.

SPEAKER_00 47:59

Right, right. So it's more so in the governance aspect of it. That's right. Yeah, okay, understood. Okay. And now let's

Will Pickering Ever Get Windrow Snow Clearing?

SPEAKER_00 48:05

let's uh let's ask a simple question. A lot of people I think are wondering are we ever gonna get windrow cleaning in the wintertime, which is like that road bump that comes at the end of the driveway from the the the snow plows? Is it possible? What would it cost? And is there a way to like find out if people some people might be willing to actually pay more for that if it's like, hey, this will this will be like 10 bucks more a year, like I'm down, you know. After the winter we just had, yeah, sign me up.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

Yeah, right. But uh, you know, Counselor Robinson, uh to her credit, did promise uh to investigate that. We did do a report. Uh it would, based on the information that we had, be about a 10% increase in the property taxes, uh, but which, you know, again, 30 percent.

SPEAKER_00 48:42

Of the 30 percent. So effectively.

SPEAKER_01 48:44

So we're talking about a three about a three percent. Three percent. Do the math.

SPEAKER_00 48:47

Right.

SPEAKER_01 48:48

Uh that's potentially uh $250, $300, you know, or 200 $200 to $250 a year.

SPEAKER_00 48:55

Right.

SPEAKER_01 48:56

Would some people be willing to do that? Absolutely. Right.

SPEAKER_00 48:59

I guess we'll pose that as a as an open question. If you guys think, let us know in the comments and let Mary Ash know too. What do you guys think? $250 a year, would you do that? A three percent increase and get them cleaned. That might that might be worth it.

SPEAKER_01 49:11

Yeah, because we've had a horrible winter.

SPEAKER_00 49:12

Yeah, and you just get you just get trapped in your house sometimes. I can't wait.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

And you know what? Uh I talked about uh seniors, uh right? Especially for and we have a seniors program where if there's a snowstorm, the city pays for seniors to get that done. Low income uh and people with disability. So it's something uh we have to look at. Our seasons have become wetter, wilder, and windier. Uh economic change is real. Uh and certainly uh we've had a tough winter.

SPEAKER_00 49:41

So

Local Council Drama & Political Discourse

SPEAKER_00 49:42

yeah. Okay, now let's uh let's talk about something, um, a little matter of tension that has been occurring in the last little while. Local politics got a little turbulent over the last several years. Um, without getting too personal, without naming names. It feels a little bit like I'm talking like talking about Voldemort. She who shall not be named. Um what does this whole episode tell you about where local democracy is fragile? Uh and is that vulnerability unique to Pickering?

SPEAKER_01 50:08

I don't think it's unique to Pickering. I think a couple things, several things have impacted it. We have the trumpification of say anything. We have social media where people feel comfortable in throwing personal insults at people. We had a period of unease with COVID being locked up and and uh people needed a release. So I think uh our political discourse has been diminished. Right. And it's probably heightened here in Pickering for a couple of reasons. Uh, we have a very active community. We have one counselor that's a bit of a lightning rod. And I and I think the Trump thing's real uh in terms of it's acceptable to call your opponent an uh whatever you want to.

SPEAKER_00 50:58

Completely change what's considered acceptable. Right.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

So our discourse, uh political discourse has been diminished. I think it's very important that politicians continue to not block people, have an open dialogue, get some thick skin. I have very thick skin, but my wife doesn't, which but probably doesn't surprise many many of your viewers today. But we have to make sure that City Hall's a people's place, people's welcome, where you you can debate issues.

SPEAKER_00 51:26

So Right, right. I guess when you when it comes to certain things where, you know, I guess to put it bluntly, where you've got issue after issue, sanction after sanction, like, you know, the integrity commissioners getting involved and and and it just sort of nonstop. What would you like personally like to see the province do to help in situations like this while still respecting people's right, you know, to elect someone that they wanted to, and that person has the right to be in office? Like, how do you balance that and and what do you personally think is the answer? What would you like to see happen?

SPEAKER_01 51:54

The counselor we're talking about has had 22 infractions of our code of conduct, six pay sanctions. Uh there is a bill before the House called Bill Nine, which would have an opportunity uh for the provincial integrity commissioner to um suggest uh the removal of that counselor. Uh and it can be upheld by unanimous vote. Those are many safeguards.

SPEAKER_00 52:17

Who who would be the unanimous vote um of council. Of council, of the existing council.

SPEAKER_01 52:22

We'd have to go from the local integrity commissioner to the provincial integrity commissioner. They review it. Okay. So that's what Bill 9 is. That's what it is. Okay. A number of us have over the course of the last year signed on to a respect elect respect or respect elect uh where we undertake to be more friendly. Um, wouldn't that be nice? Yeah. So but I do support Bill 9. Yeah. I hope the government's not going to be able to do that. I think that's

Mayor Ashe Reflects on What He’d Do Differently

SPEAKER_01 52:51

that's the way.

SPEAKER_00 52:51

Is there a decision you've made as mayor that you'd make differently now, looking back at it? It's okay to ponder this one a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 52:58

I'm thinking because I'm a pretty confident guy, and I I I I try and make my decisions based after some uh some reflection. Maybe not a decision, but I wish my relationship with that particular council was uh more positive and I kept my cool a bit more uh when I'm chair because I am the mayor and I have a responsibility to reflect the honor that that office has. So I I do have some um regret that I probably wasn't my best all the time, but I try I try and keep the office of the mayor in some revolence. So maybe that's one of them.

SPEAKER_00 53:38

Yeah, that's fair. I appreciate that honest

The Decisions That Will Matter in 20 Years

SPEAKER_00 53:40

reflection. What is the decision being made right now at any level of government that people will look back on in 20 years and say, that that was the one that mattered?

SPEAKER_01 53:49

Two things. Uh Northeast Pickering is going to dramatically change our city. Um has the potential to do uh on a positive, uh, as well as the potential, you know, for urban sprawl and the like. So I think we have to uh try and make it not urban sprawl, make it a smart community, make make it transit supported and connected. Um it's also an opportunity to have a thousand acres of employment lands. I want people not only to live in my city, I want them to work here, I want them to play here, I want them to do everything here. So having success along the innovation corridor again, uh to bring um high-paying jobs, taxes. Right. Um, the the uh the burden on our taxpayers high. You know, our taxes this year in Pickering went up 3.49%. Out of the region, they went up 4.8%, blended about 3.9%, 3.84%. That's above inflation. That's above what people are getting in their pensions. So they're falling far and farther and farther behind. So we have to have a better deal or bring in different revenues. We're fortunate in Pickering. Uh you we get about $15 million a year from our casino. Uh, and we are we're investing in in um, we try not to use it for operations, but rather capital or nice or infrastructure, right? As well as from charity. We give a warm.

SPEAKER_00 55:08

People need to understand that difference between those two spends it's right. It's very crucial.

SPEAKER_01 55:11

Um we so we don't want to artificially subsidize the operating needs uh in terms of revenue,

How Pickering Uses Casino Revenue

SPEAKER_01 55:17

but we want to do it in terms of capital infrastructure. And the other thing we do with our casino money, we don't spend it the year we get it. So we're always a year. We spend it a year later. So we're always fifteen million to the good. I see. Yeah. Why is that? Uh it's just uh a strategy of the of the treasurer to make sure if we had another COVID and we had to close down the casino or something or not like banking on it and then you spend accordingly.

SPEAKER_00 55:44

Yeah, it makes sense. Probably probably wise.

What Pickering Could Look Like in 10 Years

SPEAKER_00 55:46

So now let's look forward a little bit. Ten years from now, uh, what does Pickering look like if everything goes right? And what's the thing to get most likely get in the way of that?

SPEAKER_01 55:56

I think we'll have a number of condos along Pinkston Road. Uh the thing that you asked me about keeping up at night is uh traffic. Um taxes and traffic are the things I hear about the lot the most, actually.

SPEAKER_00 56:09

The nuisances we deal with, right? Yes, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:12

So we gotta make sure transit works for us. We you know, I I'm really glad that we talked about this today. And I've told you I've gone to these world-class cities and you go underground in London and you just find a subway and you go anywhere. And you're gone. And you're off. And you go to and you go to the airport. Yeah. You can go to Wimbledon, you can go across town for like although they have a a fare system that's uh um based on how far you go. Okay, but they have that oyster card, like our Presto card. Yeah, yeah. So we gotta think about transit, uh, and we gotta think about trying uh making transit work so we don't rely on the car.

Mayor Ashe on Re-Election & His Next Mandate

SPEAKER_00 56:48

You've also signaled that you're running again or you seek to run again as mayor. Uh what's the mandate that you're asking for this time around versus the first time you ran versus what you've already built?

SPEAKER_01 57:00

Well, I I uh indicated I want to be the jobs mayor. Uh, I think I've had some success there, and I want to continue that. I've talked about that today, about landing some big fish uh on the innovation quarter, getting more employment land. Um, we have a huge opportunity now uh with the federal government. There's 9,400 acres of land that they're asking for our input of what to do with that. Uh I really think there's an opportunity for balance there. Uh, I don't think we necessarily have to put 9,400 acres in the Rouge Park. I think there's an opportunity to protect some uh through the Rouge Park, uh, protect agriculture, but also have an employment corridor there that uh maybe affordable housing too. The issue about affordability is the price of land. Federal government owns 9,400 acres. So uh I think um that idea not to build an airport now gives us an opportunity to do something good with that. So jobs, uh supply of housing, um, upgraded transit and affordability.

SPEAKER_00 58:02

Okay, right on. That's a good combo. Finally, before we get into these uh quick little segments we've got at the end here, um, what

The Big Problem With Local Government Finances

SPEAKER_00 58:09

do you want people across the GTA to understand about this moment that we're in that maybe a lot of people don't understand?

SPEAKER_01 58:15

I think the uh people have to understand that far too many expenses of government are being done by the property tax base that they never should have had to do them. We have the federal government making decisions about 100% about immigration, 100% about refugees, right, uh, 100% about uh foreign students, all impact uh our social service net, which goes down to the residential tax base, which it never should be. We have um building new hospitals, we have to raise 10% locally. Uh ambulances, again, something that's paid for by the residential tax base in Durham, where traditionally a long time ago it was done by the province. So a new fiscal deal, I think, is uh is important. You know, though there was a plan several years ago about giving cities one percent of the HST. Maybe that's a way. Right. Instead of take taking it off the taking it off the property tax burden and and giving us a share.

SPEAKER_00 59:15

Yeah, because there's there's a massive mismatch there, right? Like you said, it's a federal decision. They decide to you know turn on the taps on X, Y, and Z and all the costs get downloaded, and and so there's a giant mismatch, and then you know it's a no wonder people are kind of frustrated.

SPEAKER_01 59:27

And so and as a for instance, I have um comfort in and pickering full of uh asylum seekers, refugees. Really? Federal government gives the region six point two million dollars to buy it, so now it's owned by the region, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:45

That makes no sense. Right. Do we need something like real structural change to change how that's done? Like, should there should there be like either through the HST or through like a per per immigrant or per refugee uh you know amount that comes into the the municipalities? Like what do we need to do?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:02

We do need a new fiscal deal.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:04

Uh and HST is only one example. Uh there are other jurisdictions across North America that have a sales tax that is city-based. Now, I'm not suggesting that, although we have now entered into a hotel tax. So we have our MAT tax, uh, which is generating $300,000 or something. Okay. But we're talking about it. Yeah, yeah. And we're we're gonna build more hotels and and the like. But we're dealing paying for things that was never designed to be done by the residents. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:34

So it's just we're property taxes meant to be my house, my street, my services, police, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:40

Plow my uh road, pick up my garbage, and make sure there's clean water when I turn it on. Right. That's what people think. Fire service, police, libraries, all that stuff. Right. We're paying for social housing, we're paying for um shelter homeless shelters, we're paying for all kinds of things.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:55

It makes no sense. Yeah, that's gotta stop. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's it. That is a good answer to

Headlines & Hot Takes

SPEAKER_00 1:00:59

the question. All right, now let's move into just before we wrap up, uh, a little fun thing we like to do is cut three segments we've got. Uh first one's called Headlines and Hot Takes, where I will read you a headline and slide it over to you. Just rapid fire, just give me your hot take on that or your your opinion on that. Uh, we've got the development report where we'll just talk about uh I'll I'll again give you a uh development, something ongoing right now. Just give me your take on that. And finally, Ontario Time Machine, where we talk about something historical. And then again, just just give me your reflection and take on that. So if it sounds good, we'll go we'll go on ahead. All righty. This is all unrehearsed, by the way. This is completely, yeah. He's he's never seen he's never even met me before. Uh all right. So Ontario announces plan to slash Niagara Region's Simcoe County Councils and add strong chair powers. What's your hot take?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:44

Regional and upper tier uh governance uh is required. And uh I think the minister made strong decisions in Niagara and Simcoe, and I welcome the discussion that will happen in Durham.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:58

Fair enough. Ford Carney announced $8.8 billion to help cut development charges spur housing builds in Ontario.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:05

Land, land development charges, permits and fees are half the cost of a house. So anything the government can do to A, get rid of taxes, which they've done with the HST, uh lower or reduce um development charges, go right to the bottom line, and hopefully we'll help affordability. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:25

Does that affect municipal coffers?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:26

I mean, if those development charges go down and so it's um on a on an average house in in Durham or in Pickering, it's about $120,000. We get about 40. Okay the region gets about 75, and the school board gets about five. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:41

Under this framework, would the is it that the federal government or the pro province would pay that instead, or like does that mean you guys have to absorb that?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:48

Well, the the devil will be in the details, uh, but there's an expectation that we lower and then they'll meet you halfway at some point make us not fully whole, but Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:59

Yes. All righty, last one here. Debate over Scarborough LRT heats up as mayor and counselor offer competing motions. This is of course talking about the LRT there, and that's now a topic of conversation.

unknown 1:03:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:11

Um Counselor Bradford's gonna be running for mayor against Mayor Chow, so it doesn't surprise me that there's spirited discussions uh happening. Uh I think uh what's happening in Toronto in terms of uh renaissance of public uh transit is a good good discussion to have, uh and one that uh should be a central point in the in someone's decision making in at the election in October.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:34

All right. Now

The Development Report: 407 & Brock Road

SPEAKER_00 1:03:35

for the development report. So we're just gonna describe uh one project going on. The the one that uh is uh highlighted today is the rezoning application for the 407 lands around uh 407 and Brock.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:46

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:46

That little interchange. Uh there's an application before the city to rezone several properties around the 407 and Brock Road interchange. The proposal opens it up to offices, hotels, mixed use, high density residential, light manufacturing, institutional uses, and even potentially hospitals. So what is your take?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:03

Well, uh I'm in very active uh discussions with uh some of the landowners up there about getting some land donated for a uh uh medical facility. I don't think we're gonna call it a hospital because it's a post-acute care rehab center, but it it takes the burden off uh hospitals because it it'll place people in an appropriate care position. Uh I think the 407 and Brock Road is gonna be an exciting area to be in for the next two or three decades. Uh, we're looking at getting a Costco up there. We're looking at getting an uh a mosque for another place of worship, so it'll be a happening place.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:42

Right, right. Because they're currently very underutilized and everything.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:45

You know, it's the historic hamlet of Brome there, and it's been since the land was expropriated, it's been kind of a ghost town. So it's gonna get new energy back in it.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:54

Right. Anything else you'd like to see in that in that pocket there?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:57

I think uh housing office, uh, they got to be integrated.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:01

Uh whenever I talk about housing, I also would talk, I want jobs that go along with it.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:05

I don't want people to We don't have too many office spaces in the U.S.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:08

Yeah, and I don't want people to necessarily have to go to Markham or Mississauga. I'd like them to be at home board.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:13

You get that tax revenue, right? That's right. Yeah, makes sense.

Ontario Time Machine: What Transit Planners Knew in 1945

SPEAKER_00 1:05:16

All righty. Now finally, to before we wrap up, uh for a fun segment called Ontario Time Machine, I basically share a historical fact and we discuss it. So today we're gonna be talking about something that was in the TTC statement of policy in 1945. So in 1945, before a single subway car ran, Toronto's transit planners wrote something that sounds like it could have been written recently. So that quote is the present congestion of traffic on Toronto streets threatens the very economic life of our city. Its welfare varies with the ease and efficiency with which people and goods can move throughout the city. The Commission does not propose to stand idly by and allow this deterioration of its services and of the city to take place. There must be a gradual separation of public and private. Vehicles, both of which are now trying to operate on the narrow streets originally designed for horse-drawn traffic. What did they understand in 1945 that we may be forgetting today?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:11

Well, back in 1945, it was about narrow streets. Transit was above ground streetcarts, which we still have in some of our communities, and this was before the subway.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:21

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:21

I think uh what we uh have had a gap. Uh, you know, Toronto, world-class city, had a loop. That was it. Right. That was it for 50 years. So now I think the last 10 years where we've seen expansions up the Vaughn, uh, we've seen cross towns, uh, we uh we have an up express to the which is long overdue. All the great cities have a connection between city centers and uh and their um international airport. So um uh it's remarkable that was happening in 1420. 1945, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:56

It threatens the very economic life of our city. Its welfare varies with the ease and efficiency with which people and goods can move around.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:02

And who avoids downtown Toronto because of traffic even today? Right. Everybody. Yeah, exactly. It's like Yogi Berra says, nobody goes there anymore, it's too busy.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:11

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Are there lessons in this for Pickering? I mean, how do we does that ring true for Pickering?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:17

Yeah, I I think um, you know, we're talking about uh potential for light rail in our north uh community, uh a rapid bus lane uh along our Kingston Road corridor, uh a connection to TTC, uh, extension of the Go Train East, uh go trains that would come every five minutes rather than every 20 minutes and every half hour or every hour. All those things I think make sense.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:40

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:41

As well as high high frequency and high-speed rail.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:44

Yep, totally.

Outro

SPEAKER_00 1:07:45

Well, Mayor Ash, keep fighting for transit. Let's bring that light rail, let's do all the stuff we've got to do. Thank you so much for your time here today. Cheers. Really appreciate it. Guys, we hope you enjoyed this week's episode uh with our steamed guest, Mayor Kevin Ash of Pickering. Be sure to like, comment, and subscribe on this. You can follow us anywhere that there are podcasts, and we hope to keep bringing you more insightful conversations. Mayor Ash, thank you so much for your insight and your time today. Thank you. Really appreciate it. We'll see you guys in the next one. Peace out.