Episode 6: David Z.

David Z traces his drinking from collegiate blackouts and a marriage-ending spiral — through a psychiatric hospitalization he barely cared to survive — to 22 years of sobriety built on the one thing that always terrified him: letting people see him as he actually was.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

February 2003. That's when my life changed. My name is John Knowles, and this is Keep Comin', a podcast about recovery from substance abuse. In the 12-step rooms, you get to share your story or you sit and listen. That's the format, and it works. But there's something missing. The conversation. The questions no one gets to ask. This is that conversation. Thanks so much for joining the podcast today. It has been a while since we've seen each other. Of course, we've got some technical difficulties today where we're not seeing each other. But in general, uh it's great to have you on the podcast, and I'm uh very eager to share your story or have you share your story with the podcast listeners. How are you today?

SPEAKER_02 1:04

I'm doing great. Thanks for having me on. I've uh really enjoyed what you've been doing so far and glad to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Excellent. And where are you broadcasting from today, David?

SPEAKER_02 1:14

I am in Northern California right now, which is where I live.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

You've had since I first met you a journey of geographical transport, as it were. Uh started first for me, knowing you in Providence, Rhode Island. And then from there, uh let me see if I can reconstruct your journey. Ann Arbor was it next?

SPEAKER_02 1:31

Exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

And then from Ann Arbor straight to Northern California.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

Yeah. And actually my sobriety journey started in Philadelphia. And um I had moved around. I I did the the classic uh geographic cures a number of times, and I think kind of protected me a little bit from some of the consequences uh of of everything. Uh and so it's been it's been really great to be settled out here for I guess 14 years now. What are you recovering from, David? From alcoholism. As well as I mean, there are all kinds of addictions that we all have in our lives. I think there's a personality of self-centeredness, of just of finding things that will numb that just discomfort with life or with self. I think alcohol was one just one mechanism that that I used to deal with just general sense of unease and and anxiety uh and discomfort.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

I know for me when I look back where that desire to relieve whatever was discomforted in me, for you, where can you pinpoint that back to in childhood, most likely?

SPEAKER_02 2:42

I was a child of the 80s. I am the the oldest son, and I I always had this sense of of wanting to please people, please my parents, please authority figures. Uh there's that sense of really defining myself, I think, through external things and never really thinking about who David Zee is and needing good grades, needing needing jobs, needing a girlfriend, needing praise from parents. And so it really led to a sense of perfectionism and need to do the next thing rather than ever really feeling satisfied with just where I was and and who I was.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

I can say the first thing as someone who has known you for a while that might jump out based on what I know is your educational pursuits.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

Yeah, I I mean I I've always found that I worked hard and and I needed it. You know, I needed to to get good grades because that, you know, that there's no ambiguity there. You knew what you had to do. It's all laid out for you. And there was this sense that if I just did these things as I was told, that then I would finally get there and be happy. You know, of course, you realize that that's that's not the case, and it just leads to wanting to do the next thing. And so that went through with schooling, and then it got transferred into jobs, and then it was uh, you know, who you're dating, um, where you're living, what your apartment looks like, and it was just this never never really feeling comfortable with where I am and who I am. And I think I saw that in relationships. You know, I you know, I struggled with just feeling like I'm I'm David Z and and I'm a good guy and I can be your friend just the way I am where I am right now, without having to to show something else for why you would want to like me. I I think that's what uh you know what led into to alcohol kind of filling that void.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Is it fair to say you can perceive things as a bucket and that bucket is never full enough?

SPEAKER_02 4:41

Aaron Powell That's been a a lifelong journey through being in recovery, through uh recognizing that life is not this continuous upward trajectory that's just given to you if you just follow the rules. I I think you're forced into a situation where you have to realize that at some point you have to be okay with where you are. Uh but certainly my teenage years, my twenties, even my 30s, even early recovery, I struggled with that. I think when I first met you, I I still was chasing after the grades, chasing after the the next thing. And it was making me angry at everyone around me. And at some point I had to, and and this is where you know working steps can really be helpful that at some point when you're when you're angry at you know half the people you know, and literally when I, you know, when I was doing my steps, it's eye-opening that it's like, well, you know, maybe I have some role in all of this. And rather than being resentful for someone else of of having something that I wanted or felt that I deserved, maybe I just had to be satisfied with with where I was and who I was and be grateful. And I think being in recovery, being around other people telling similar stories was made all the difference in my life.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

I had such a pink cloud my first year, but after that first year, almost to the day, that pink cloud evaporated and the resentments crept in. And I resented everyone for everything, and it was killing me.

SPEAKER_02 6:10

I still do that. I mean, I do that all the time, and and I have to catch myself. And what it leads to is a it's a feeling of constant disappointment and and a sense of being alone and that the world's out to get me, the traffic on the road is out to get me, prevent me from getting to work on time, or the IT issues that I would have at work, and like, oh, why is everyone you know, why are these IT people trying to screw me over? Or and you know, I I think going into the rooms and hearing people, I mean, people talk about traffic all the time in in the rooms, and and we all laugh because uh we all feel it, and you begin to realize that that you're not alone in this kind of suffering. It's the human condition, and learning to step back and and be grateful for the things that you have, and not needing to numb yourself from just the disappointments and frustrations that we're all gonna have in life, the rejections from the girl you maybe want to, you know, date or from the the school you want to get into, or whatever it is. So um it's learning to really identify with just other people and the human condition made me stick around, I think. But it's a constant battle. There's all kinds of addictions out there. I mean, alcohol, you get rid of that, and you um you talk about those with other people, but you know, I can throw myself into work and pursuing feeling like I have to pick up another job, you know, another, another shift, or you know, when does it end? When do you feel satisfied? And I find it's when I I feel disconnected from from humans, other my my fellow humans. And we are so lucky to have a a group of people who gather and are able to show that vulnerability and to say, you know, I'm really suffering about how angry I got about being cut off in traffic or standing in line too long or someone not not doing your job and that feeling of, don't you know who I am? Um, you know, I am entitled to XYZ. And that's not true. We we live in community. And when you feel detached from community, it's it's when the suffering is. And I can suffer really easily. It's why I I stay in touch with people like you 22 years later, because you know, within five minutes of of talking to you, you know, you'd be like, Yep, yep, yeah, I I remember that. I know what you're saying. Or going into a room and telling some just ridiculous story. And you usually you can't even get through the story before you're you're just you're listening to yourself. You have a forum, you feel heard, but everyone's laughing, and it's been a a huge thing for me, no matter where I lived.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

As you were talking about the example of, oh, someone cut me off in traffic and I'm just so angry about it. There are those that either are thinking about getting sober and thinking about 12-step meetings and saying, Oh, I'm never doing those. Those are just a bunch of people that are crybabies and complaining all the time, or people that don't need to be in recovery that think that that's what they are. I don't fault them for thinking that. I actually kind of chuckle because sometimes they're right. Sometimes it is a bunch of people being babies, crying about spilled milk type of things. But what would you say from your heart to someone without taking offense and just saying, well, it's not really that, but I get why you think it's that, but here's what it's really happening.

SPEAKER_02 9:26

First of all, I would say that sometimes we are crybabies, and going in there and hearing that is also instructive because going to a place and holding space with people and and just listening is is also helpful to me. Hearing other people's crazy and and for me to sit there and not feel the need to give advice and just to hold presence and nod my head and say, you know, thanks thanks for sharing that. And I don't need to say, hey, that was really awesome what you said, or hey, that's the craziest thing I've ever heard. And be silent. I'm an advice giver. I love to solve people's problems, I love to give people advice. And that's that's not what people need when they're suffering. I think sometimes they just need to be heard and to be vulnerable, uh, no matter what that is. Especially you'll be in the rooms and you'll hear something particularly crazy, uh, maybe said. And what's the response we have? It's it's we look at them and we say, keep coming back. You don't get better all at once. It's a it's a lifelong thing. I'm still getting better. Um, but I think going back to your question, I I wonder this. You know, you you know, what is it that brings one person in when they come in and another person can go through so much more uh before they're finally ready? What is it that gets you to the point of readiness or willingness to go in and be vulnerable? It's when are when have you suffered enough where that fear of being vulnerable in a group of people and saying, I need help, I'm not perfect? And I think there there's an element for me of uh just suspending disbelief and just saying, I am in such pain that I'm I'm gonna just try it. I'm I'm gonna just I'm willing to have a little bit of discomfort of going in there and saying, I I just I just need some help or I just perhaps this is partly about me. And that is gonna come at a different level of pain for everyone. Some people it's being in jail. Other people it's losing a spouse or being hospitalized for psych reasons or losing all your financial resources. Other people are just like, I'm I'm just kind of tired of being unhappy. And so I I don't know what it is, but it it it does take a little bit of discomfort and suspending your disbelief about everything you've heard about AA or whatever recovery group you want, and just being willing for the chance of something just being a little bit better in some way and able to trust the process. And and it may take one or two or three or four or five meetings before you find that. And everyone's journey is different. And some people come in and fire and on fire and do 90 and 90, and they do all the steps, you know, have done the steps all the way through uh in the first 90 days. But I I don't think there's there are many ways up the mountain. And I think the key is that you're just willing to come and and be vulnerable and ask for help. And and that's really it.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

You mentioned 22 years a little bit ago. So tell us what your sobriety date is.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

June 2nd, 2004 is my sobriety date. So as of next week, it'll be 22 years. I didn't come in thinking I would I would do 22 years. I would I I first started just thinking I just need some place to go on a Friday night where I don't feel alone and like a loser because you know, I had been blacking out with my classmates at school, uh hitting on people's girlfriends, um, engaging in really atrocious behavior, and I was I was just I needed some relief. And it was not the goal to do this forever. It wasn't it couldn't picture any of this. I just needed like, how am I gonna get through until the end of this week without feeling completely isolated and alone?

SPEAKER_01 13:07

So what was the last week of drinking like for you?

SPEAKER_02 13:11

Super uneventful. Um June 2nd is not my first sobriety date. I think I was in school. I had been blacking out with classmates, kind of revisiting my college years, and had some things I don't remember that I was quite ashamed about. And I had another classmate who had similar experiences, and a couple weeks before he had shared that, and I could think he got a DUI, and and he was on the brink of getting thrown out of school, and I don't know, well, I do know why, but he had kind of just shared, like, hey, uh, you know, I got a DUI and I decided to start going to AA. And I was kind of like, whatever, dude, good for you. Let me know how it goes. And sure enough, like a couple weeks later, another bad thing had happened to me. I I think I was driving drunk, I knocked over some fence, I hit on someone's girlfriend, I was hearing all this horrible stuff about everything, and feeling super depressed, and and so I went to this guy and I'm like, hey, give me a shot at going into this too and see how it goes. And I I remember I went to that that meeting, and and this was in Philadelphia at the time, and I just uh it's like I could just exhale. There was somebody up there telling their story. I think they had about a year or I still remember her, and it wasn't like a remarkable story or anything, but it's just everyone was laughing at all the all the stuff, you know, all the usual stuff, the embarrassing stuff, humiliating. And I'm like, oh my gosh, um, maybe I'm not unique in in having these feelings, and maybe there's there's a chance here. For the next couple of months, I think I got up to like 88 days or something. I I went to these meetings, didn't really meet anybody, didn't do steps, didn't get a sponsor, didn't listen to anyone, but I just needed a place to go so I wouldn't be alone. At the end of it, my poison for me was I didn't know how I was gonna meet girls without alcohol. I mean, that it was the entire way that I felt funny, I felt at ease. Uh, I thought people liked me more, it gave me more ability to talk to people. This is how what I perceived. In reality, I it was just the opposite. But there was this woman who had I'd had an interest in for a while, and and we went out and I just blew it, I blew it up right there and started drinking again after 88 days. And and of course that that was a disaster. It didn't didn't go well. She still didn't like me, it turns out, even after having 88 days of of not doing anything bad, and and I think I blacked out after she was gone and all this stuff. And and then I just remember I I had this solitary beer uh a couple days later, June 2nd, at a local pub, and it was just a Sierra Nevada. I just went there by myself. I had this this Sierra Nevada, I remember it clearly, and when I was done, I'm like, I'm I think I'm gonna go back to AA and just just start over. And that was it, uneventful. I think getting sober is often like that. I mean, sometimes it's it's dramatic and exciting, and I'm I was in jail and the story is amazing and and we all laugh about it. Other times it's just you just go back. You just start over, and you just start over and I started counting days again. And I I just went back and I said, you know, I'm I'm new. Today's my my first day, and I just started counting days again, and then that was it. And then I just kept going.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

Remind me, you were in the Philly area going to school for what?

SPEAKER_02 16:32

For school, preparing the preparing for med school. So I had to take classes to do that. And I mean that was the the the funny thing. I mean, here I was like getting into med school and I mean while also coming to terms with the fact that I had a I had a drinking problem. So clearly it wasn't like I was getting uh there were really mixed messages on paper, and I think at a time where I was at at a peak, but I, you know, even during that 88 days or whatever, I had a lot of relief by not making things worse and not having to apologize for that stuff. So I still had a lot of things I felt I had to clean up. I had been coming out of a divorce that I think definitely complicated by the way I was drinking. I was super depressed, I was even hospitalized at one point, which came out of a blackout. I mean, that was kind of my bottom, honestly. So I had come out of that, and yet I still, despite that that torture that I'd been through the previous year, I still but still through all that I I decided that no, maybe maybe I can drink safely. Despite being divorced over it and just being hospitalized for depression because of it.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

Aaron Powell Who do you feel was most negatively impacted by your substance use?

SPEAKER_02 17:46

Certainly uh yeah, would be my you know, my first wife, I think. You know, I was I was really, really hurt and angry and didn't really see it. And and now I look at it and I'm like, well, of course she of course she left, you know. How could she not? I I didn't give her any choice. I regret that. She's she's not in my my life in any way now. I certainly if I ever had the opportunity where, you know, to to speak with her and and to tell her that I would I would let her know that. But I I also want to honor her space as well. That that wouldn't be about her, that would be about me, and that's that's an amends that I think can just be a living amends in unless the opportunity presents itself.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

So what would you share here as an example of something that you might have done that is worthy of amends to your ex-wife?

SPEAKER_02 18:33

Aaron Ross Powell it's the the self-centeredness of really only being focused on on my myself and taking her hostage and allow, you know, uh making her basically, you know, I I was unemployed at that point, and so she was supporting me financially, supporting me emotionally. You know, she had hopes and dreams too at that, you know, in her late twenties, and I was not holding up my end of the bargain. And I think there definitely were times I blacked out and said things to her uh at a minimum verbally abusive.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

So for those that are listening that don't necessarily know what it means, from an alcoholic's perspective, when we say I took them hostage to you, what does that mean?

SPEAKER_02 19:16

I think there was some codependency that uh all of our lives became about me getting better and me feeling better. And every day how I felt would determine how the day went for her and everyone around us. And at at some point, they get to the point where they're like, Well, this this really isn't our problem. This is your problem. And I'm gonna go do my thing now, and you can go on your merry way. And there was no looking back for her. I just didn't understand it at the time. Like, what do you mean? We're married, we're we're we're committed to this, you know. We're she'd already stuck stuck it out for a long time, and I wasn't doing my part, and the alcohol was just sinking me lower and lower. She made the decision that she needed to be happy, you know, and and I came to to be grateful for her and and to wish her well.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Let's take a look into younger David when he first discovered alcohol and what it could do for him.

SPEAKER_02 20:18

I remember having first drinking, I think, in you know, in in high school. Not not a lot. It was curious. Um it it really was when I I got to college. I d you know, it was everywhere, it was accessible, and uh it put me at ease. I deal with this spinning noise and craziness in my head all the time, and and learning to just settle that down, you know, even as an adult is is can be a challenge and and just this self-consciousness and lack of being present. And I found that alcohol did that. I stopped worrying about it, and and I thought I was funnier, and I thought I was more sociable, I thought I would I got more girls that way, I thought all kinds of things, and maybe that was even true for a a little while, but I also was quickly in college blacking out and having really shameful things that I didn't remember and being told about the next day and having to either go apologize or and I just got used to this cycle of blacking out every couple of weeks and having something bad happen. And it got to the in the end, nothing good was happening. And I I remember my uh graduating from college and I just felt I just felt the anger that everyone felt towards me. And it was I still feel such a shameful experience going through that when a number of people actually in my final week of college, like literally like told me like what they really thought. And even later I remember a guy who I thought I was friends with, he's like, Yeah, you're you're you're really an asshole. You know, and that was like, Whoa, I am. Um, I mean I knew I was, I knew I felt that way. And yeah, he's like, when you when you drink it bad things. Happen. So but even then that wasn't enough. And you know, I moved a number of times I after college. And so I tended to just kind of reset with new friends. And but the cycle would repeat itself of people getting pissed off and me isolating myself and and the cycle seemed to be more rapid. And then the other thing that came in is that where it was once a social thing, it began to be a thing I would do alone. And it was a coping mechanism for my depression because I I found that that alcohol would would help soothe that.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

Tell us about this hospitalization you've mentioned a few times.

SPEAKER_02 22:41

Not because of alcohol, just because of circumstance. Well, yeah, actually. I mean, i I didn't lose a job because of alcohol, but I it it just was the nature of the economy. And there was a another move in there with with my wife, and I found myself feeling hopeless, and uh, you know, I couldn't there were things I couldn't control, and alcohol came in, and depression has always been there, but I didn't feel that men got depressed and couldn't feel vulnerable and talk about it. And I remember my wife at the time said, you know, you're you're depressed, and I have a therapist I want you to see. And I'm like, no way, I'm not doing that. That's not my thing. And I just remember her saying, Well, if you're not gonna go to the therapist, then I'm gonna go to the therapist. Which she did once, and then uh after that, I'm like, well, uh maybe we'll go together. And then the next time we went together, and then after that, she stopped going. And I actually continued to see that person, I think for the next like almost 10 years. Through in Providence, I was still seeing her. I was going up, she was based in Boston, I was going up there to see her, and she helped me make really big changes in my life, including going to AA. But anyway, um there there came a point where I had gotten so low, and I remember I went to this therapy appointment, and I and I I had the night before I had I had blacked out. Don't remember everything, but I do remember I came back to our apartment and I just I trashed the entire apartment. I threw everything, every piece of furniture I threw on the ground, everything broken. And I was still, you know, with my wife at that point, and she of course left. And um and I went and I bought, you know, a bunch of alcohol, and I I remember just saying, I I'm just I'm done. I'm just gonna sit here and and just drink this, and I have no plan. And I'm really indifferent about anything that happens next. It wasn't that I had this plan or anything, I just was indifferent. I was like, I I I don't I'm just gonna sit here and just just continue to drink. And this therapist, I think I had an appointment and I told her this and she pulled the plug and I was so angry, and I went there and yeah, I think it was the first step, it was the first time I began to make a connection with maybe alcohol was was was playing a role here, and I remember this guy, he wasn't one of the clinicians or anything, and he looked at me and he said, uh, and he had this like Boston accent, he's like, Hey, you think it could be the booze? And I just remember being like, You effing jerk, and I just was like, Don't you know who I am? And you can't say that to me. And it was all I could think, and then uh and then I realized I'm like, wait, I'm I'm in a hospital right now. It took a while, but I I look back at that guy. I wish I could tell him. I appreciate that because it it made me like really recognize, make some connections in that moment. And then when I when I got out, you know, my wife was done at that point. And I think dealing with the depression, the anxiety, I mean that was still there when the alcohol was gone, and so figuring out how to how to treat that as well, I I did that, you know, outside of outside of the rooms.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

You didn't consciously say I'm gonna drink till I kill myself or I'm planning on killing myself, but if that's an outcome from this drinking binge I'm about to go on, so be it.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

Yeah. It was indifference. Uh indifference and not really having a plan other than this alcohol I have here.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

From when you first started drinking, and then in college you said you really started drinking. When was the earliest you can remember thinking to yourself, huh, this might be an unhealthy relationship I have with alcohol?

SPEAKER_02 26:15

I I think it was when I kept needing these geographic changes to reset. And then I kept finding that the same things were happening and the same I was getting the same responses. And I knew something weird was going on when like some people would drink and have parties and somehow they would be happy and they would have come back with all these amazing stories, and I seemed to always have these stories that I felt ashamed of. And I didn't make the connection there. I just thought, well, m that that's just because I'm a bad person. And or maybe this is just what I have to accept. I think for many years I'm just like, well, I guess I just have to accept that this is this is just something that sometimes happens, and if I could just control it a little better and try different strategies of people watching out for me, or making different rules of only I'm only gonna do two this time, or I'm not gonna I'm gonna come in before midnight, or the reality is that it's so unpredictable, you know. Uh I mean it was really humbling when in the in my first marriage where I I think there was seeing her the disgust that she would s sometimes show me. Yeah, it didn't feel very good.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Aaron Powell I say this jokingly, but not really. Just because we're sober doesn't mean we can't disgust our w our wives.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

Oh, going to these meetings, I mean that's the half the thing that we talk about is uh those sorts of things, but I at least I can you know feel more accountable for it where I remember it or I say that it because I got divorced, I got married when I was sober, and divorced when I was sober, and and clearly still have the capacity to be a gigantic asshole in recovery, too.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

And I wish we could say sit here and say, oh, when you get sober, you're not an a a jerk and you don't misbehave anymore and you don't hurt people's feelings anymore, but sadly that is not the truth.

SPEAKER_02 27:56

Totally. I completely agree with that. And I just as big of a a jerk uh as I I think I've always been. I I think what I do though is when that happens, I have tools that allow me to make amends. And and so I think that's the difference. And I in 22 years, I have never had to explain to anyone what happened in a blackout because I have chosen not to drink. And so uh at least a blackout from alcohol, right? I can I can certainly have emotional blackouts in the moment, but at least I remember those.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

How did your friends and family react to when you finally got sober?

SPEAKER_02 28:31

Many family members I don't think they realized the extent of of what I was going through. I think they were uh more tuned in to the fact I was depressed. I think a number of friends you were relieved and supportive of of my not drinking. It made me more predictable and easier to hang out with. Because I'd had so many geographic changes that I was constantly resetting, and so not long after this started, I mean I I moved to Providence and there was this whole world of people and classmates and people who never knew me as someone who drank. My my current wife has never seen my me drink, my my son has never seen me drink. So really I think it was I guess my parents and and family, and you know, I had lived a apart from them, so I I don't think they were entirely clued in to the extent of it. So yeah, I guess I was lucky that i I think it can be very hard when when you have that kind of change and and you become sober and then you know, you maybe even go away, and then you gotta go back to your whole world where you grew up and all the different triggers and all the different expectations and all the friends. And it does sometimes take maybe there's some friendships that don't make sense anymore if it was all centered around drinking, and I see that, uh, and it can be, you know, really triggering. I think I was lucky in that I was in a place where I could just basically start over with so I I think it was easier for me than most probably.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

What was the hardest part about early recovery for you?

SPEAKER_02 29:59

I think it was the vulnerability part, the part that I was gonna follow someone's idea that wasn't my own. And I thought I knew best and I wanted to do it my way, and to take that leap of faith of just doing something that a that a sponsor would suggest, you know, to share and to share honestly. I think is is the hardest thing. You know, we live in a in a world where it can feel dangerous and scary to be vulnerable because people might hurt you. You can't always trust people when you're vulnerable. You can't you don't it it's seen as weakness. And in many places, you know, there are a lot there are a lot of sick people where they will take vulnerability and exploit that. And so uh I think it was through experience of seeing other people do the same thing and somehow getting better and then and realizing like, well, I kinda want that too.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

What was the best part of early recovery?

SPEAKER_02 30:54

Uh the my friendships. I mean, I I met all these people who I never would have met, ever. All different walks of life, different ages. My favorite meeting turned out to be right across the street from where I lived. And so sometimes I would be coming home from school and there would all you guys would be like out in front of this uh in front of this meeting and be like, well, I guess I gotta go. And and everyone would, you know, when I went through school, it was like I felt like everyone was rooting for me. And I remember all the the old the older the older guys, you know, I would go in and tell my tales of woe about school and people would just roll their eyes like, uh-huh, yeah, just just keep coming. And it made me realize that my dramas were really not not that interesting or they felt relevant and important to me uh in the moment, but really when I stepped back, I I really had a lot to be grateful for. And so it was absolutely the friendships. And there was this core group of, I don't know, ten or fifteen of us, and we would just move around to different meetings, and all four years I was there, I just remember all it's surprising how many of them are are still are now in their twentieth year, you know, or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

So what would today's version of David tell his younger version to spare him some pain?

SPEAKER_02 32:05

You're fine, just the way you are. You're fine, you know. It's it's gonna be fine. You don't need to go chasing off all these other things for people to like you. It's funny that the absolute worst thing that I ever thought could happen, like my my wife leaving me and divorcing me and being unemployed, it led to the most wonderful things I've ever had. And I never would have chosen this pathway, but I also would never want it any differently. You just keep trying to move ahead and and do what you think is is the best in that moment and move on and don't don't dwell on it.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

Going back to early childhood, what was your family dynamic like?

SPEAKER_02 32:41

I had uh upper middle class, educated, no complaints about my my childhood. I think it I had this sense of expectation that much of it was self-imposed and a desire to to please. I had every opportunity. Um I can't look at my childhood and say that someone's at at fault for any of this, you know. There definitely is alcoholism, but not in this in the way that I think there was at times some uh some anger and acting out, and and I look back and I'm like, huh. I mean, my my father was certainly uh uh could be gr uh he was loving, uh yet gruff, and he was growing up he was always the one or two beers, uh a night kind of guy that I look back and and and I wonder, and certainly extended family, there's there's alcohol dependence for sure. I was I mean, I was very attached to my mother, and I was probably closer to her because I she would protect me. My dad, he cared about his family a lot. He was home every day at five o'clock, he'd have his beer or two. But we we definitely had a lot of strain on both ends. I would push his buttons and he would get angry at me, and not someone that I would confide in necessarily. He was a very he was a 50s kind of dad, you know. He just suck it up, David. And I don't know why you're so stressed out and anxious all the time, and you know, and and my mom would kind of rescue me, that that kind of thing. And uh so I I don't know if looking back I was trying to please my dad, or I I know I was definitely trying to not disappoint my mom, and I had all these perceptions of what she expected, even though that was not true at all. But, you know, as I was a super anxious, stressed out kid, and with a big temper, and I thought I was better than everyone, I think. Uh, you know, I I didn't value my friendships with other kids uh because I found those hard at times. Instead thought that I was just smarter than everyone. That wasn't true at all. But that was just what I my refuge that I would go to. And I try try not to continue that on with my own son because I can be very results-oriented and intense at times, and he's definitely the opposite, which I admire.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

What haven't we talked about today, David, that you think we'd benefit from knowing or that you wanted to get to talk about today that I didn't ask?

SPEAKER_02 34:54

The idea of like what gets us to the point where we we feel like we're done. Suffering that we're feeling, you know, in the in the moment by the things that are happening, like when when does that become so great that we're willing to take that that chance to be a little vulnerable and try something that feels uncomfortable? I'm I'm just intrigued by why different people have different thresholds for that. You know, I I think the most important thing is just to keep trying something different. And maybe it's not AA, maybe it's maybe it's seeing a therapist, but you don't have to sit in in that suffering and keep trying to do the same thing over and over again. And it's only by trying a different thing, and it's not gonna feel easy and it's not gonna go away. It's just a matter of taking that risk. And if it doesn't work out, then you do try a different risk. It doesn't have to be forever. Sometimes doing the hard things, the uncomfortable things, and just gritting your teeth is what you need to do to take that that chance to for really beautiful things to happen.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

David, it was wonderful catching up with you.

SPEAKER_02 35:53

Yeah, I really, really enjoyed it, and it's good to talk to you. I you know how much I appreciate our friendship and to think it's been 22 years. It wasn't what we planned for, but grateful. It was better. It much better, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

As we say in recovery, keep coming.

SPEAKER_00 36:21

Keep moving, there ain't no looking back. Choose your weapons, lay them with no regret. Gotta decide if your story is won't come over back. JD Cat, just try to move it back to the check. You planted a seed, they don't wait for a tree. Snuck your foot in the door, they don't wait for the key.