Episode 8: Jenny G.

Jenny got sober at 57 with no withdrawal, no ultimatum, and no dramatic bottom — just a quiet miracle she credits to a higher power, and a life that finally, slowly, became her own.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

February 2003. That's when my life changed. My name is John Knowles, and this is Keep Comin', a podcast about recovery from substance abuse. In the 12-step rooms, you get to share your story or you sit and listen. That's the format, and it works. But there's something missing. The conversation. The questions no one gets to ask. This is that conversation. Okay, Jenny, thank you so much for joining the podcast today. Where do we have the pleasure of talking to you from?

SPEAKER_01 0:50

From uh Woodstock, Connecticut, about two miles from where you are.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

Jenny, what are you recovering from?

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Alcoholism.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

And when did that start for you?

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Let's see. I started drinking when I was about 16. I think really at a very at you know, sometime after that, I had periods of time where where I would just get drunk, but I would also have periods of time when I wouldn't drink at all. Like in college, I was 18 when I went to college and the drinking age was 21. So I didn't I drank at house parties when I went to them, but it was by no means, you know, a constant thing. So I really got I really got going once I hit graduate school because then I had my own apartment and I was 21 and there would, you know, there were like no nothing to prevent me from drinking as much as I wanted. So I did.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

At 16, were your p were your parents aware that that was going on, or was it all uh you know, sneaky and kind of like most people?

SPEAKER_01 1:58

No. My parents, let's say they belonged to the cocktail set, okay? And and a lot of the parents that were in that group thought it would be a good idea to introduce their kids to alcohol at home so that they would have a feeling of what it was like and and kind of maybe learn how to drink. So that's what my parents did. And I and I did start off, really, I didn't drink at all except in the summer when I, you know, there were yacht club parties and stuff, and and I would drink there, even though I was underage, um, they would serve me because it was a private club, really. But I always had my drinks very weak then. But as time went on, uh that changed.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

Drinking at 16, but you didn't necessarily get drunk yet. So when was your first drunk?

SPEAKER_01 2:44

My first drunk, let me see. Well, I would have to say my first drunk was when I was 17. And uh I had my boyfriend and I, we used to hang out on the beach, you know, and it was stinking hot weather, and we'd be drinking, we'd be drinking some awful stuff called uh tang, which was like a screwdriver in a in a bottle, all mixed already. And there was I remember there was one occasion where the two I was I was a counselor at a camp, and there was one occasion where I was so drunk that my mother just would not let me drive back to the camp, which was we lived on an island and the camp was on the mainland. So and she said, You're not going anywhere. So that's the first time I remember getting drunk.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

You know, when I first got drunk, I was 15, similar uh summertime yacht club, private gated community type things.

SPEAKER_03 3:35

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:36

But I got I got drunk every single night that summer. And so what was the was it a consistent drunkenness after that, or was it just few and far between?

SPEAKER_01 3:44

No, it was it was more it was more, you know, few and far between because it's once I got to college, which was after that summer, I, you know, the opportunities just dried up and I just didn't and I was okay with it. So it wasn't w till well, yeah. I mean, I used to go to house parties and and my date would well, my date was my husband Joe, became my husband Joe, and and he would take me, I the our campus, the women's college campus, was about four blocks from the men, and he would almost like carry me back after a party. I really drank anytime I would have the opportunity, and it's really too bad because there were a lot of nice things that went on at college, and I, you know, when you're drinking, I mean, even if you're not drinking, when when you're for me, I just kind of like I didn't want to do anything really, you know. I remember him telling me that, oh, the hoot hoot and nanny. I don't know if you remember who you don't remember hoot and anny, but but it was a big folk song thing. And Pete Seeger and so forth, and he came, he came to my school, and Joe and I went to see it, and he tells me that I really enjoyed it, but I don't really remember it that well, which is, you know, God.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

I can certainly relate to that. There's a lot of lot of things that during college I don't remember that I really should have, and similar to you.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

I, you know, a lovely college experience. I didn't exactly bring my best self to that experience because I was partying the whole time.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

I don't think I was my best self until I got sober, actually, until I'd been sober for a few years. That's when I got to be my best self, I think.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

In retrospect, what do you feel you might have been escaping from, running from, maybe running to that alcohol gave you some sense of relief if if I can put those words in your mouth?

SPEAKER_01 5:39

It was almost entirely, I would say, uh fear, fear of other people. For absolutely no reason, I had low self-esteem, you know, and and I don't know why, because I I had I had a good home life, I was, you know, I was attractive, I always had boyfriends, but but especially with women, with other girls, or with any c any strangers really, any people that I didn't know well, I felt so uncomfortable. And, you know, like I had nothing to say, nothing to contribute. And then if I had a few drinks, that that all changed.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

How did the low self-esteem manifest itself aside from seeking out drinking?

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Well, for one thing, it it c it prevented me from having any kind of real relationships because I was always I was always trying to be the person that I thought somebody else wanted me to be, and because because I wanted them to like me. And I didn't think that I was, you know, I didn't even know who I was, to tell you the truth, John. Because I had, you know, I wore so many different faces depending on on the person I was with and what I thought that person wanted. And it was always, it was what I thought they wanted. It was not what it might not have even been what they did want. I I just didn't didn't think of myself as being worth much. And it led it led to a lot of um, it led to some sexual um promiscuity um because I always, you know, I thought, well, you know, what the heck, this guy, you know, he's taken me out to dinner, so I owe him, you know, I owe him something. It's just, you know, looking back on it, it is so sad. I feel so much pity for the person that I was. And uh, but but that's the way it was.

SPEAKER_02 7:29

I can certainly relate to, and men are judged differently for sexual promiscuity than women are, but yeah, but uh, you know, I I sought out the validation from women um desperately. You know, I look back at who I was in college and when I first started, you know, having quote real relationships, and I was just such a lost little puppy dog with this pathetic, like, please love me, please like me, you know. And yeah, um, I wish I could go back and just tell that guy to like chill out a little bit, you know, like it's gonna be okay, you know.

SPEAKER_03 7:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

You talked about uh having a good uh family and and upbringing. And um I was raised by an alcoholic mother for most of my uh childhood up until my early twenties, and a father who buried his head in the sand, and I don't say that to complain, but no, yeah, you know, that is that that's my you know reasoning for some of the syndromes or the isms that I have, or at least a large kind of like that environment led to where I eventually ended up. Right. But you you didn't have much of that in your upbringing?

SPEAKER_01 8:31

I might, you know, as I said, they were part of the cocktail set. They they had cocktail parties and you know, especially in the summer. And and what I like to do was, you know, when I was, oh gosh, I started probably when I was about 12, uh, my mother and I would work in the kitchen and we would create all these hors d'oeuvres, and then I would serve them. And I loved doing that. I got along really well with older people, people my, you know, my mother, they they all thought I was marvelous, what good manners the child has, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I was always at ease with them. It was just people, people my age, especially other, especially girls, that I really that I really felt so inferior. And uh, you know, you mentioned validation, and I one of the one of the best things I I ever heard was if you if you look for validation outside yourself, you will never have enough.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

In my world, which again we've we're establishing that the cocktail set was very similar in my upbringing as well, maybe, maybe a few years later. But someone who could drink alcohol and handle their alcohol was widely respected. They would be cheered on the next day saying, Oh my god, you were drunk, but you were so funny. You danced all night long. Yeah. It was such like a reward almost, like bravo kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:50

Was that similar for you that you sort of saw that uh in your world?

SPEAKER_01 9:54

No. Because I got if anybody said anything to me, it was it was more like, oh my god, you know, what do you remember about what you did last night? It was more that kind of thing. It wasn't, you know, I might have thought that I was the bell of the ball, but nobody else did.

SPEAKER_02 10:12

Let's jump ahead a little bit. Well, a couple questions. What is your sober date?

SPEAKER_01 10:17

It's um January 4th, 2001.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

And what was the last week of drinking like for you?

SPEAKER_01 10:23

Well, I have to go back a little bit because I I I mentioned Joe that I was dating in college, and then and we got back together again in November of 2000. He had always been in love with me, and I knew that, and he didn't make any bones about it either. And I had just come off a and not not very my first two marriages were not particularly good. They weren't bad, you know, but they they weren't particularly good. And they and both my men were both of them were alcoholics, and Joe didn't drink at all. And as we dated, none of his friends drank. Um, we started doing things, going out, going to plays and music things and and dinner and stuff like that. And uh so my life became more interesting. Looking back on it, boredom was always a huge trigger for me. During that December, I just really kind of tapered off. And then I remember having my last drink visiting my mother. I was visiting my mother for over the new year, and then I came back home and I just didn't feel like drinking anymore. It was a miracle. It was my miracle, and I haven't had a drink since, or I don't even really think about it.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

When I first met you, you introduced me to uh it was trailing off of the COVID pandemic, and it was an outdoor meeting. It probably still goes on, I'm guessing.

SPEAKER_03 11:46

Right, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:47

I haven't been in ages, but uh you would introduce me to that meeting. That was really one of the only few meetings I've been to in this area. So I first off, I want to thank you for introducing me to that lovely group of people during a time where uh meetings indoors were very hard to to come by at that point.

SPEAKER_03 12:00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

Let me understand the timeline. So you met Joe in college. Yes, and then and you dated him a bit in college, but then you got married to two other people between then and the 2000 time frame, and then you married Joe.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Yes. He was my he was my sober husband, and I'm so grateful to have had him because I otherwise see, I can look back. I mean, I've lost him now, but I can look back and I think to myself, wow, if all I had to look back on was the first two, that would be pretty sad. You know? I would feel that I'd really, really missed out on something. And and uh because of Joe um and who he was and you know, in our life together, I don't I don't have to feel that way. You know, I'm sorry about what went before, and I'm sorry it took me until I was 57 to get sober.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

Yeah. Hopefully everyone who needs it finds it. But as we know, statistically, that is very uncommon.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

It is.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

So did you have, as you were getting close to your official sober date, did you have people suggesting you get help, or was it more subtle at that point?

SPEAKER_01 13:04

No, it was it was really this is the thing. My my mother would every now and then make a little comment, but she, you know, I mean, she was a drinker too. We used to drink together. I was a terrible influence on her. And I remember when I was when I was teaching, I remember that the head master calling me into his office when I had done something really stupid at some evening event or something, you know, and I I went to and I never should have gone. And oh, I think it was par a parents night or something where I entertained the parents of my of my students and I guess one of them one of them blew the whistle. Um, because I was oh oh god, was I drunk at those things. You know, he basically said that if I don't if I don't shape up, I'm going to uh he was gonna fire me. And my thought was, well, who the hell are you to talk? Because I knew that he was an alcoholic, too. So I just, you know, I just it it did not I did not clean up my act. I just was more careful.

SPEAKER_02 14:10

Who do you feel was most negatively impacted by your drinking? And there's probably many different stages of that, but I retired early.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

I retired in 97. They were about to change the whole schedule and make classes a lot longer. And I did not think I had it in me, and I knew I knew I didn't have it in me to make all new lesson plans and stuff like that. And I just decided, you know what? I'm out of here. So I and I remember making before I made that decision, I made a list of, you know, I looked at my finances and at my expenses and you know what I would need. And at the top of the list was booze, and the second thing was cigarettes. And then I had farm animals, so they came in next, and then there were utilities, and at the bottom of the list was food for me, and that's what my life was like.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

When you look back and you say, Oh man, this person or these people really got the the lousy end of the stick as a result of my drinking, who might some of those people be, and what were some of the things they might have seen at the hands of you?

SPEAKER_01 15:17

See, I was an only child. My mother was an only child, my father was an only child. There weren't a whole lot of people in my life that were close that I was close to. The one person that really got the short end of the stick from me is my mother. She lived, you know, she continued to live out on Long Island. She retired from her job. And one of the charming things about my, especially my second husband, to whom I stayed married, married until he died, he died of alcoholism. Um, but we were married for almost 20 years. And I just he he hated my mother. I think he was jealous of any kind of attachment that we might have had, and it was pretty tenuous. But he would give me, you know, the silent treatment like two weeks before I left to visit her and two weeks after I came back, and and it was just really hard. And and I I ended up visiting her maybe like four times a year for I'd go one day, stay the next day, and go home the day after that. She had a uh triple A operation, aneurysm, and I didn't even find out about it until her her best friend called me and said that she'd pulled fit through nicely. And I mean, you know, really, that's it's just awful. And and she, but she never, you know, she never gave up on me. She she wanted me to have an IRA, and she said she would uh I should open one and she would send me 75 bucks a month to put in there. And I said, Well, I think about it, you know, stupid. And I told I told my my my husband that, my second husband that, and he said, Well, she obviously wants something. So when I called her back, I said, Well, you know, what do you want in exchange for that? And I mean, how awful is that? You know, it's just, oh my God. Um, but I was I was really lucky because I got to make amends to her. I made amends to her almost immediately, you know, when I realized I was gonna stay sober. I was able to be, you know, very supportive and visit her a lot and stay with her at the end of her life for for the you know five years there. So I may I made up, you know, I I made it up. I do regret the way I treated her.

SPEAKER_02 17:33

When you made amends to her, was it an on-the-fly uh, you know, outside of doing a night step formally, or was it within a night step?

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Oh, yes. I made amends to her. I think I was two months sober. We had gone down there, it was in March, I think. I can't remember why we were there. And see, she knew Joe too, because when I was dating him, Joe knew my he knew my dad who had died, he knew my mother, um, because you know he had been part of my my people. So marrying him was kind of a different thing, you know, because I'd known him for so long. And we were never really out of touch either. So anyway, when I we I was down there and I and I said, I'm three months sober and I'm doing well, and I, you know, and I need to apologize for the way I've treated you. And it was not it was not a detailed amends, and it it wouldn't be I I wouldn't approach it the same way now, but it was it was good enough to get us back. I mean, only because she accepted it, and only because she was willing to accept it and just forget what a how horrible I had been to her. But I didn't do the steps in any real formal way until I was 13 years sober, which I wouldn't recommend. But there were just a series of circumstances that led to that.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

What were some of the the big indicators to you that you had a problem?

SPEAKER_01 18:56

I think it kind of grew on me because by the time I got sober, I had long known that I was an alcoholic. I mean, first of all, I could not stop drinking once I started. And I once once uh my second husband died, he well, he was, as I said, he was an alcoholic too, but he he usually he didn't start drinking until five. But anytime I got a chance, I'd get home from work at, you know, like 3:30, and I'd I'd just have a drink right away before I did anything else. And then I would just like keep drinking. You know, one day I'll never forget one time I I was making spaghetti and I was in the kitchen and I dished it up, and he and he was in the den watching TV, and I started to go into the den and I tipped the plate and the spaghetti landed on the floor, and I just scooped it up and gave it to him anyway. But you know, I mean, that's not normal behavior. I knew I was an alcoholic. We both knew we were alcoholics, and I remember, you know, asking him one time, do you think we're alcoholics or just heavy drinkers? It was a lot better to think we were just heavy drinkers because that meant I could go buy more booze. You know, it was something that I knew, something that I knew, but I wasn't really ready, too ready to do anything about it. I went to a couple of meetings in town and I was drunk. And I found out years later that I had been followed home because I was that bad. It wasn't like a sudden, oh, I'm an alcoholic. It was just I just grew into being able to recognize it and and thinking that. And I don't know if I would have ever done anything about it to tell you the truth, because my my second husband died in 95. And I just drank all day. I just never saw, I didn't think I was gonna die. I just thought it was gonna be like that forever. And I didn't really like it, but I wasn't ready to do anything about it. So I really credit my higher power for like saying, okay, that's enough.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

Yeah, it is a miracle.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

It is. Oh my God, what a miracle.

SPEAKER_02 20:58

You mentioned earlier about weaning yourself off leading up to getting sober. Does that mean you suffered from withdrawals and detoxing?

SPEAKER_01 21:06

This is unbelievable, John. The amount I drank, I never had a single health issue. I just cut down and cut down and then I just stopped. And uh I had a neighbor across the street who was who who quit drinking too, and he ended up in the hospital in the in the ICU. And I should have, you know, I should have had some kind of horrible physical reaction, and I just didn't.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

I I can't make sense of why some people have withdrawal symptoms and others don't. There's not a, you know, it's I know fascinates me. But yeah. When you got sober, your mother, of course, is super excited. Joe, I would imagine, was pretty delighted that you decided to stop drinking.

SPEAKER_03 21:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:46

With Joe, was there any ultimatum like, hey, if you really want to, you know, make this work, you gotta stop drinking?

SPEAKER_01 21:52

No, because I, you know, j January tw of 2001 was so soon after we we really started. To see each other romantically. It was like two months later. He knew I he knew I drank. He asked me not to drink not to drive when I was drinking, and I promised not to. And of course I broke that promise. But there was no ultimatum. And I'm just I am so grateful that I did because he would have married me anyway, and he would have been miserable.

SPEAKER_02 22:20

Other than those two, who else in your life would have been cheering you on for getting sober?

SPEAKER_01 22:25

I don't know, actually, because I was so isolated between 95 and and then when I quit teaching, from that time on, I mean, I really saw nobody. I went nowhere, I saw no one because all I was doing was drinking all the time. You know, I'd I'd get up and I'd have breakfast. And I never drank before breakfast, but after breakfast was a different story. I don't think there was really anybody else who cared particularly.

SPEAKER_02 22:53

What was the hardest part about early recovery for you?

SPEAKER_01 22:56

There was no hard part. Because as I say, I mean the hard part for most people is managing the craving. You know, I mean, I just skipped all of that because first for I you know, I quit drinking, I felt great, I was having a good time, my life was suddenly, wow, this is terrific. And it pretty much stayed that way. I mean, there were issues, of course, there are always issues in life. And I feel I feel terrible when I look back and I and I just really did not struggle with with alcohol. I I struggled with other things, you know, character defects and stuff like that, which took much longer, but um, and is still ongoing, of course. As far as the addiction goes, I just didn't struggle with it at all. And I feel terrible. I try not to actually say that, share that, because it's it's just not it's just not right that I was so lucky.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

Yeah, it's the double-edged sword. If you're sharing a meeting, you feel a little guilty because there's a newcomer there that's probably pulling their nails out. Exactly. But at the same time, we wouldn't all be doing this if everyone's journey was miserable at the start. And so there's a there's a uh, you know, there are, and I I I kind of similar to you is I had a pink cloud my first year.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

Oh my god, me too.

SPEAKER_02 24:11

Yeah, and I just felt so good about myself. I probably you know swung the pendulum a little too much, and I was a little arrogant and a little overconfident and just proud. I had a ton of pride that I was finally doing something right, a little guilt there. My journey was a little too easy early on.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:24

So let's let's ride that and say what was the best part about early recovery?

SPEAKER_01 24:29

Oh, well, I gotta say, the best, the best part of it was actually was getting my life back, being able to, you know, like to have a day, take just take any day and be able to do stuff during the day. I I got more interested. I got interested in my garden again. When I was drinking, all I did was read all the time. But I was able to actually read and recall what I had read once I quit drinking. I don't know. And and I, you know, and I had Joe, and he was offering me all these wonderful, because he was a very social guy, and he had all contacts all over the place. He was a ham radio operator. We traveled, you know, we just had a good time, and it was my life was suddenly so full. It was pink cloud country is what it was.

SPEAKER_02 25:16

As you know, getting sober and staying sober are two different things. So how do you stay sober and how have you stayed sober all these years?

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Well, I don't have the desire to drink, so there's that. But I do have a desire to right from the beginning, I had a desire to be a better person. You know, my first, gosh, I don't know, 15 years of sobriety, something like that. I went to a meeting every weekday. And then I would sometimes go on a Saturday and a Sunday as well. And Joe was very encouraging about that. Because I said, I said to him right early on, I said, gee, I'm you know, I'm really enjoying the meetings because I really enjoyed the meetings, even though they terrified me because there were people there, there were so many people, and I didn't know any of them initially. And I and that the worst, the most horrible thing for me was to have to have to actually like be in a conversation with these people because I didn't know them, and I had nothing to talk about because I hadn't done anything for so long. But then as time went on, the more I did, the more interesting life was, and the more interesting I became, so I had some things to talk about. And I learned a technique that being able to feel comfortable with people I didn't know was simply to ask them about themselves. And then I hardly had to say anything from there on. So that that's a technique that I've used quite a lot, even now. Although I have to say, you know, having done so much work on myself, I, you know, I actually know who I am now. And I just and as I was learning who I was, I thought, oh, okay. So that's why you're doing this and that and so forth. You know what they say about an unexamined life. Yeah, but it takes it takes courage. It takes courage to examine yourself. I mean, for me, I it wasn't so much the things I did, which was you know, it was nothing, it was nothing that caused real harm to anybody except for my mother. You know, when I learned why I had been doing these things, and I before I did the steps, you know, I learned a lot because I went to so many meetings. You know, I really struggled with the character defects. And and I, of course, I struggled with the whole God thing as well, because I was I was mad at God. It wasn't God I was mad at. I was mad at religion. That's what I was mad at. And I was was associating God with religion. And I still think the big book and the big book, especially, it's a pretty damn fine line.

SPEAKER_02 27:44

I don't think I've quote educated listeners that don't know what the big book is, and a few people have mentioned it in the podcast. Yeah. But the big book being, you know, essentially the I'm how would you describe the big book? What would you say in like 10 words? What is the big book?

SPEAKER_01 27:58

I would say the big book is our textbook. You know, it explains in detail what alcoholism is, how people behave because they are alcoholics. I love Bill's language. It's very old-fashioned, but he's so, I don't know, like he talks about alcohol, it has to be smashed, any idea that you'll ever be a normal drinker. And he uses that word over and over in the phenomenon of craving. And this, oh, and it describes, it describes the program to you, the steps. It goes through the steps. And then my favorite chapter, and probably everybody's, is a vision for you. The vision, the vision is a a new life. It's indescribable.

SPEAKER_02 28:36

Aaron Powell We refer to it as the the big book, but it it technically just says Alcoholics Anonymous on it, correct? Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

And that was written by Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob, the founders of AAA back in 1939, if my uh correct yeah, I think yeah, under 38, 39, yep. What do you think it is about meetings? You know, we're talking about meetings, and again, people that may not know what do they mean, meetings? You're going to a meeting. What kind of meeting is this? You know, for knowing someone who does nothing about recovery, and that's fine. And there are those also that know about recovery and say meetings are super dumb and I would never do that. And they're, you know, it's a cult and it's the worst. But what is it for you and for other people you talk to? What is it about the meetings that makes them so special?

SPEAKER_01 29:15

Well, from the get-go, when I went to a meeting, I felt uncomfortable because I didn't know anybody, but I understood what they were saying. I understood what they were talking about. And for me and for so many others, it's the first time that I felt that I, you know, that I really I had something in common with a bunch of people. Mostly the people are pretty welcoming. You know, they listen to you and they they help you, they make suggestions to you, and and you get to, I mean, for me at this point, my my entire social life, these AA people. My home group is in Sturbridge, it's a women's step meeting, and uh, you know, we do all kinds of things together outside the meeting, and in a good meeting, there is an atmosphere of of love and hope that is just it's intoxic it's almost intoxicating, I I find it to be anyway.

SPEAKER_02 30:10

What would today's version of you tell the younger version of you to help them?

SPEAKER_01 30:15

I would probably say get a therapist. That's such a hard question for me, John, because I I am so different now from what I used to be. And I, you know, I remember what I used to be, but I don't know what I could have done. I don't know what I could have done then to make things different. I I really don't. You know, through my my my first marriage, it was we did things, but um and then my second marriage for a while, you know, like we were members of the fire department, and that was cute because we used to go, oh my god, the siren would go off in the middle of the night and we'd leap out of bed and throw our clothes on and go down there and you know, and we'd both still be drunk. My husband got basically asked to leave the fire department and then I left as well. I don't know, I'd have maybe I should tell myself that I was always looking for someone that I could help. And that meant that I picked a lot of guys, a lot of guys who were emotionally weaker than I was. I was pretty strong emotionally. You know, I was very optimistic most of the time. Every every guy I was in love with, I did a lot of work, you know, building him up, building him up because he had such low self-esteem. And you know, and oh my God, what a waste of time that was because it never worked, you know.

SPEAKER_02 31:36

To what extent do you feel like you were trying to find people to work on so you didn't have to work on yourself?

SPEAKER_01 31:42

Oh, absolutely, absolutely, and and that is hindsight. But I look back at all my all my relationships before Joe, and that was always it. It was always it. That I had certain strengths, and I was always looking to use those and not pay and not be concerned about my issues. Now I know, now I know why. Of course I I didn't want to work on myself. God, that was what fun was that.

SPEAKER_02 32:10

What's the closest you've come to relapse and what are the circumstances, or what were they?

SPEAKER_01 32:15

Oh, this one I can answer. Both of these instances, there there were two instances, and they were really the same. And they both involved being in Germany. I can speak some German, I understand it pretty well, you know, on a one-to-one basis. Joe was fluent in German, so that's how we ended up being in Germany a bunch, and um, because he had a client over there. The first instance was I was at a I was at a a party. It wasn't a party, it was like a huge well, it was a party, but it was a big party. It was a party, you know, for somebody. I I don't know exactly. But anyway, there were like, oh my god, there must have been a hundred people there. And they're all speaking German, and it's loud because they're all drinking, and there was hardly anything to eat, and there wasn't there wasn't anything non-alcoholic to drink. You know, I just sat there in the middle of this party and I just listened to all this shit, sorry, going on all around me. And I thought to myself, oh, for God's sake, you know, just give me something to drink. But but fortunately, I just I found another place. I found a smaller room that that was, you know, on on the side somewhere where I just went and I just chilled and I got through it. And the other one was um my father's family was half Danish, and the the Dane, they they had a big they have a big shipping company. And one time Joe and I were there, and it happened that they were actually at the house, um, or someone who someone at one relative was was at the house, and we had never I'd never seen it, so we went there and we were joined by another couple of people, and this guy was showing us around the house, which was very swell and all that stuff. And on our first trip through, we had gotten into one of the libraries, and I noticed a tray with some small cups and like a pitcher, and I knew what that was. I knew there was gonna be some kind of like sherry or something, and this is another spiritual experience because this was just unbelievable. I decided that I could have a drink, and so I let him, you know, give me a cup and started to put it to my lips, and I didn't get anything, you know. So I I said, Oh, okay. So I just, you know, maybe there wasn't enough in it, whatever. And so, but then he went around and he filled it some more, filled everybody's cups again, and I did the same thing, and I still didn't get anything. And that was absolutely my higher power of doing the equivalent of knocking a drink out of my hand because I would, you know, I was ready to do it.

SPEAKER_02 35:03

And had you strayed from meetings at all, or was your program technically solid at that point?

SPEAKER_01 35:08

No, I never I have never strayed from meetings. When we traveled abroad, I always went to meetings.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

It's interesting for a listener of the podcast saying, Well, how how did that happen? That sounds dangerous. If she was doing everything right, how could that have happened?

SPEAKER_01 35:26

And I'm not asking, you know, it's more rhetorical, but no, but I I know how it could, I know how it happened because it's because I'm an alcoholic and I'm in recovery. I'm not cured. And I'm never, I firmly believe that I am never gonna be cured, and I will always be an alcoholic, and hopefully always in recovery. But the thing is, it's always, it's always there. And they talk about vigilance and and you gotta have it. I mean, I feel I have to have it, you know, even after 25 years. I just have learned not to put myself in positions where something could happen. And I've learned, I've learned to just say, no, I can't do that. No, I'm not going.

SPEAKER_02 36:06

23 years in, I can still drive by a dingy motor lodge and think to myself, I would love to be holed up in that with a pile of drugs. And you know, just to your point, that's not going away. It's 23 years later, and I still can see a sketchy motor lodge and think, boy, the the isolation I could do there and the the way I could drink and drug the way I want in a hotel room by myself. And it's for people that have only known me sober, that to me describes the illness of addiction and alcoholism. Is it, you know, oh, John, the guy I know that, you know, has a full life, still would look at a motor lodge and think, boy, that's a great idea.

SPEAKER_01 36:45

Yep, there's another John.

SPEAKER_02 36:47

Let's talk about a day in the life of Jenny now. So, Jenny, you know, um what is what is the typical day like for you or typical week like?

SPEAKER_01 36:55

I don't know. First of all, I live alone now. I miss Joe a lot, but there are certain advantages to living alone. Like I can eat when I want, I can get up and go to bed when I want. You know, I can basically do any damn thing I want because there's nobody to criticize or, you know, there's nobody who's who's depending on me except for my cats at home. But usually in a day, I like to read, I I like to knit, I like to garden when I can, I have lunch with friends, you know, from AA, I have dinner with friends from AA, I go to meetings, I do shopping, I just, you know, I can really do anything that I want. And fortunately, I'm I'm still in reasonably good health, so my social calendar is not totally full of doctor appointments. Yeah, I I love my life. I just I really do.

SPEAKER_02 37:45

I end each podcast with this question. What didn't we talk about today that you want us to know?

SPEAKER_01 37:51

I think the most important thing I have to come back to meetings. I to me, I had a sponsee, I loved her. I I I loved her like a daughter, and the feeling was mutual, but she would not, she just wouldn't go to meetings. And I I just I said, you know, I can't sponsor you because this is the way I know how to stay sober.

SPEAKER_02 38:12

There are certainly other ways to get sober, but the only way I know how to get sober is through 12-step programs.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

Exactly. Yeah, that's it. I just think it's really it's really important to try to listen to people without letting their outward appearance or the way they speak or their background, let don't let any of that get in the way of listening to what they have to say. Because I've learned so much from people who were so unlike me and had so little to do, did so little, you know, in their lives that were like my life. And I but I heard some wonderful things for them and the humility, there are things that you need to cultivate, but it's that's kind of a big big thing for newcomers. But if just if you just listen, just listen and give it a chance. Give it a chance.

SPEAKER_02 39:05

Jenny, what a lovely conversation. Thank you so much for joining the podcast today.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Thank you for the opportunity.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

As we say in recovery, keep coming.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

Choose your weapons, play them with no regret.