Episode 11: Jason H.

Jason traces his drinking from age 13 raiding liquor cabinets with friends to a sobbing 5am breakdown that finally got him sober — and unpacks how body image, insecurity, and his father's own recovery shaped the man he became.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

February 2003. That's when my life changed. My name is John Knowles, and this is Keep Comin', a podcast about recovery from substance abuse. In the 12-step rooms, you get to share your story or you sit and listen. That's the format, and it works. But there's something missing: the conversation, the questions no one gets to ask. This is that conversation. Great to see you. Where are you broadcasting from on your end?

SPEAKER_00 0:52

I'm in Uxbridge. Yeah, in the office.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

It's taken me a while to get you on the podcast. Anything uh that in particular was preventing you from want to do it or has motivated you to do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

I I think you're used to this by now. How long have you known me? A little elusive, non-committal, and non-responsive at times. So we can get into that. But yeah, that that's that was it.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

So speaking of how long we've known each other, you and I have very similar sober dates, less than a week apart from 2003 in February. And we met in recovery, I would say, uh definitely within our first year, but we didn't necessarily discover a fellowship or friendship, maybe until uh, you know, uh closer to the end of our first year or even later than that.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Yeah, I think it was I always think of the big meeting in Pawtucket where we ended up sitting next to each other and ended up talking and uh similar age, similar look, right, similar vibe. So we ended up talking to each other and both were I know I was trying to seek out people my age at that time because I was running with a lot of the older folk, the old timers, which was great, but still, you know, you were one of the first young people that I met. And I often look at that, John, and I say, I look at look back on that time and say I was going to young people's meetings, but I was 31. That doesn't really qualify as young, but definitely I was definitely stunted at that time. So mentally, I qualified.

SPEAKER_02 2:25

In such a small state of Rhode Island, they're actually you have to seek out younger people, as you mentioned. You know, there's a lot of old timers. And so my perspective at that, and I think a lot of people's dread when they get sober is I'm gonna be hanging out with a bunch of old people that I can't relate to. And, you know, the amazing thing is I think there was a particular period of time, and it maybe it just feels that way because we found this amazing group of people to get and stay sober with in in the early 2000s, but I know that was a big fear of mine. Oh, I'm just gonna be so lame for the rest of my life now that I don't drink and party.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Yeah. You know, also like I had no idea what my my life would look like. It did feel like it was it was going to end up just being lame. And I was going to these commitment meetings, and I found those to be really boring. It's like we take our show on the road, and also with the old timers, and I loved uh some of the old timers, you know, my first year or two that I was I was with. Let's let's take our show on the road and go to this group and sort of perform. But also I didn't have 90 days yet, so I was just almost like the equipment guy. Like I just I was their roadie. They didn't let me speak. I'd sit in these meetings and end up hearing the same thing each week. I was like, is this it? Is this is this what AA is? But then I ended up finding it was all about finding the right meetings, and then I found a few in Providence, even though they weren't the young people meetings, I found a few in Providence that were definitely my more my style.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

You know, every AA meeting isn't great for for every person. And so the the 90 and 90 concept, and for those that don't know, it's generally suggested you go to 90 meetings in 90 days. And my the benefit to that for me was I found out which meetings didn't work for me, and I just didn't go to those anymore. But when you're newly getting sober, you find out, and if you don't give it a chance, you will think every AA meeting sucks because a lot of them for you, for that individual, aren't great. But thank God they are great for others. Yeah. Let's tell people about what a commitment meeting is, though, because that's really the first time it's come up in the podcast. And so I have limited experience with commitment meetings. It sounds like you have more, but I went used to go to the ACI, the Correctional Institute in Cranston, Rhode Island, and would bring a meeting to that facility there. So generally, what to me a commitment meeting is or was is basically, you know, people that are in recovery that are part of some type of AA meeting, a home group, if you will, will weekly or you know, monthly bring a meeting to that facility to show them what AA will look like on the outside. And that facility could be a rehab, it could be a prison. But is your experience similar?

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Yeah, that was it. And it was also networking with other commitment meetings. So we would go to their meeting and then they'd they come to ours usually the next week and put on their commitment. I heard some really great stories. The format just wasn't didn't really work in the end because of the you hear from three people, you get some folks up there, you know, let's say they've got 10 minutes, they'll spend nine minutes talking about the experience drinking. So I didn't I didn't catch a lot of the solution. It was more just talking about their days while they were out the with the drunkalogue. And so I didn't get frustrated, but it it didn't give me a full picture of what was out there until yeah, running into you at Jenx. Uh then eventually the topic meeting was was big and bringing in people our age. Yeah, that was kind of where it started for me is is a bunch of old timers. My sponsor, who like was unbelievable for me in my journey, was an old timer. And I also learned that they weren't big on the steps. I I I don't know the AA history, but I think the steps early on were not in and my father was in recovery, so like I talked to him about it, and steps weren't as emphasized. It was more about meetings. Yeah, that's where it started.

SPEAKER_02 6:34

What is it you're recovering from?

SPEAKER_00 6:37

Primarily alcoholism. That's where I started my career in addiction. It was it was about the alcohol. And in the end, the farther I am from my sobriety date, I look back and there's more clarity to it, and it really is comes down to drinking for me. It's about alcohol.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

And what is your official sober date?

SPEAKER_00 6:56

Groundhog day, February 2nd, 2003.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

Give us a picture as to what your last week of using was like.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

See, I was a tried the program a couple of times before that, and it was about I I think it was more almost like a nervous breakdown. The amount of crying that took place in that last week is just incredible by myself in the apartment, my apartment in Providence. I was exhausted. It was long nights, early mornings, and just getting back to my apartment and just being so down. Yeah, I was I was definitely at a breaking point, and I remember calling my my old sponsor. I hadn't talked to him in maybe seven or eight months, calling him around five in the morning. Couldn't even really talk. And he said to, all right, come over. He lived in a Pawtucket. I turned the corner and he's, you know, it was February. He's standing outside of his house waiting for me, and it was just it just it was him, first of all, like symbolized like this guy is gonna he's ready. He's ready to to support me. He took me to I stayed at his house in the morning, and then we went to Salvation Army, what'd they call that? Freedom Hall. I'm in the back, still sobbing. And of course, he's gotta raise his hand and and talk and share, and the whole life looks back at me, and I'm just like this puddle. But it was it was a beautiful moment when turned that corner when I drove up to his house and he was out there waiting outside. Uh, I really miss him. And I just knew the last night that this was it. This was it. I can't do this anymore. I just can't, and had that uh, what do they call it, the gift of desperation.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

I want to get into understanding a bit more about what you were crying slash sobbing about. So let me let me see if I can string it together. You would have been drinking, and then were you out at a bar until closing, and then you come home, and then you're like, what am I doing with my life? What was behind the the emotion and the crying and at that point?

SPEAKER_00 9:01

It's so long ago. I haven't spent a lot of time. It's interesting. My first, you know, your my first two or three years, I could give you my drunkologue year to year, exactly how the descent, but now it's hard to think back. But I was also in a tumultuous relationship at the time. We would get together, then break up, and so there was also that turmoil. She was very concerned about where I was heading. I've said before, I was very unpredictable when I drank. The person I am sober is completely different from the person I am when I'm when I'm drinking, and I was a very angry drunk. I wonder sometimes if I wasn't I wasn't such an angry drunk, would I have gotten to the program when I was, or would my drinking have extended because there were consequences to that, uh, that anger. So I'm not sure if an event happened that week. There were some events where I'd wake up in the morning after a blackout and I would hear stories about how I treated people and just be just devastated. Those types of things would make me very emotional. I'd hear about, in the end, I'd hear about, oh man, you were such a jerk to so-and-so, or you did this. And some of them were complete strangers. So I'd wake up in the morning and just feel so bad. But I had nothing like that happened that week. I think, John, I was just out, yeah, I'd get home, I'd be alone, it'd be early morning, and uh it was sort of despair. It was like, why am I still doing this? How am I still here when I know that that this is just this is awful for me? Yeah, and I would in and I would I would end up sobbing. I would end up sobbing. It was like right when I walked into the apartment, it's when it would happen. It was just, yeah, yeah. It's funny to think back. It's been so long.

SPEAKER_02 10:53

Do you recall any specific incidents where you were like, oh God, I owe that person an amends because I remember that moment and it was not not a nice moment for them.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

Yeah, I would so first of all, it was all about insecurity, right? I was so insecure. It it was a certain profile of like an alpha male walking around the bar, tough guy looking guy. If they rubbed me the wrong way, I'd get annoyed and then just start focusing on on that person. In the end, what I I'm trying to do the math, I think I was around 30 when I finally gave up and committed to sobriety. But yeah, like just a little bit of a bully, but also a coward because I also had friends with me. It's easy to be a loudmouth when you've got some tough guys with you, right? So definitely a little bit of a coward as well, where I'd run my mouth, but also knew that I had I had these guys with me who had my back. So it was like that throughout my drinking when I was with friends, as I always knew that I could get away with it. I'd hear about it the next day and be like, I didn't know that guy. He might have been out with his girlfriend just trying to have a good time, not doing anything wrong. And just because of the way he carried himself, I'm gonna start I'm gonna start picking on him. And he could probably kick my ass, but I've also got a couple goons with me. So there's so many of those, and it's just like I'll never be able to apologize to them. But the line I would use every morning in the worst was getting a phone call from a friend. They'd be like, You were so funny last night. Like, oh God. I learned uh from a friend in Ireland, they call that the fear in in Ireland. When you wake up uh after one of those, you got the fear. And so I get a phone call, you were great last night, oh god. And then they tell me, and uh, you know, I'd laugh it off and hang up the phone and just be devastated. It's not who I am. And that was the line I'd say, that's not who I am.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

Now, did you ever get sucker punched or the crap beat out of you?

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Yeah. Yeah, I got the crap beat out of me, I got sucker punched. I wasn't a very good fighter at all. In fact, when I'm not in bars anymore, but like if I were in a bar and a and a fight broke out in front of me, my stomach would tighten and I I don't like that. I'm not into that. Yeah, sucker punch, beat up, but like I look at it as being I was I was a coward. And it's all insecurity. Like, let me act like a tough guy, but I was certainly not at all.

SPEAKER_02 13:25

It probably helped that you were six foot four, and so maybe people thought paused a beat before they they thought about th throwing a swing at you.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

So I wasn't six foot four, two hundred and forty pounds like I am today. I was still a little bit lanky, so who knows? Maybe I wasn't as intimidating.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

What was your first drunk like, your age, the setting?

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Thirteen. It's funny, I I connected about a year ago with a friend from high school I hadn't seen in 20 years, and we reconnected somehow, I think through LinkedIn. And at first he thought it was 12 because he's the first person I got drunk with. But then we finally landed on it was it was 13 years old. Oh man, it it just felt so good, John. It was just like such a release and uh comfort. Oh boy, man, I loved it. I loved it immediately. It was just and blacked out. Blacked out, yeah. First time blacked out. We would drink these, we called them kamikaze. I don't know if that's what you but basically all it was was go into the the parents' liquor cabinet and take a little bit off the top of each bottle. It was disgusting, right? Mix of any any bottle. So we'd mix it up into a big jug. Yeah, we drank that, and it oh god. Those first couple sips, I loved it. Even though I blacked out, I woke up the next day and was like, man, that was awesome. That was so great. 13, lots of insecurities, zero self-esteem. And then I mean zero self-esteem. And totally insecure, full of anxiety. A lot of it was worried about external things, what people thought of me. I grew up with some very good friends. We were obsessed with baseball. Of course, my luck, I grew up, my best friend was just like this natural hitter, just a natural athlete. He was just an incredible athlete, but baseball in particular, like he had this, he was a left, left-handed hitter, perfect swing, and the kid's hitting home runs at 10, and I can barely get it out of the infield. So like I'm not measuring up right off the bat with the game that I love. Couldn't measure up with anything in my mind. And so the drinking took the edge off of that. I felt like, okay, I don't have to it it erased that in a way when I was drunk. So no, that's the 13, 13 years old. That's young. When you have kids in their 13, you say, wait a second, I was walking around one socket with friends, jean jacket, had the jean jacket on, and the m uh and the inside pocket had like a pint. That is too young to be doing that. But you hear it in the in the halls all the time that 13 is kind of an age for some people. It's it's a common age, 13 through 15. But today, I just with kids, I'm like, when they were 13, I'm like, that is way too young. I didn't even let my daughter walk to the store alone.

SPEAKER_02 16:31

And when was the next time you got drunk after that first time?

SPEAKER_00 16:34

Week after, the next weekend.

SPEAKER_02 16:36

And then probably every subsequent weekend for the rest of your life at the very minimum, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Yeah, and we ended up finding we had uh there was a friend in high school whose whose parents were very lax. So he lived 15 minutes away, and I'd get my parents to drop me off on Friday night, and I'd stay there the whole weekend. Yeah, and the parents just were kind of oblivious, and I don't think they really cared. So we'd be partying in his basement. Uh he had a finished basement, we'd be partying down there.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

It was just the two of you, just a small handful? Were there parties, social uh events yet, or does that come a couple years later?

SPEAKER_00 17:14

We were the they called us the smokers. So we were the kids who hung out outside uh at lunch. I didn't smoke cigarettes, but my friends did kind of troublemakers, as much as you could get away with at that school. But no, it was a group of us, but all dudes, all guys. And we would, yeah, there'd be like four or five of us every weekend hanging at that kid's house. You know, still doing some things, playing basketball during the day and everything, but at night we'd find a way, you know, we'd have to find someone to get the alcohol for us. And if there was a night where like we'd strike out and not get alcohol, I would be so upset. What's the point? You know, night's over. I don't think other people felt that way. Well, you know, man, I would be pissed off. I'd be Jones in almost, and we would go to any lengths. Here in Socket, there's a park, and there were a lot of homeless guys, you know, 13 years old, 14 years old, walk down to the park, buy them a pint so they can go in and grab us ours. Sometimes we we'd stay and hang out with them for a little bit. Like, what? Like, um, yeah, we'd hang out with them for a little bit in the in the woods of the park, and but yeah, and then they'd go back in if we needed more. I don't know where we got the money either. Although I was working around that time. I had jobs, but uh all of that said, like when you look at it, what am I doing in a park in one socket hanging out with these homeless guys and getting them to buy my booze for me? Like, just not safe.

SPEAKER_02 18:50

Yeah, the logic makes sense. I can relate to that. I don't think I ever, you know, did the homeless routine, but you know, shoulder tapping is what we called it. You'd just find, you'd wait outside of a liquor store and wait until you saw someone walking in that you thought was cool, and you'd ask them if if they would would buy for you. And that was generally how we did it. We didn't really do anything particularly amazing when we were drinking at that age. But there was something about the possibility that anything could happen as long as you had alcohol. Who knows what this night will bring? Maybe we'll play cards for three hours. It'll be the greatest card session ever, or we'll listen to Sweet Home Alabama over and over again and sing it to the top of our lungs, whatever the stupid thing we were doing was that felt like everything.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

And if it didn't pan out, I'd have no interest in playing cards if we didn't have it. So it was all focused on getting the booze first. Otherwise, I'd just be like, I just want to go home.

SPEAKER_02 19:44

So 13, insecure. Let's let's go down the the our physical appearances at that time, because you and I share a lot of that in common. And you were talking about baseball and not being strong enough to hit the ball out of the infield. What was going through your mind at that time in terms of comparing yourself to your peers, and will my body ever change or turn into what I hope it would be?

SPEAKER_00 20:06

When I look back at my childhood, it's probably the most detrimental thing or the thing that set me back the most was that body image was probably of everything I was dealing with, that was at the forefront. And so, I mean, I was rail thin. I think it would be hard for people who didn't go through it, boys uh who didn't go through it. It's hard to imagine what it was like. It's it's very hard to explain, but I was rail thin. So, like the word skinny. It's amazing how many people felt very comfortable saying, God damn, you gotta get some meat on those bones. Oh my god, you're just so you're just so thin. It would hit me to the core. Just that word that if people would use that, it would just ruin me. So a lot of it was just hiding it. Yeah, like anybody hearing that who didn't deal with it would be like, oh god, how hard would it have been? But it was very hard for me. So I ended up hiding it. Like on a day like today, you know, I don't know when you publish these, John, but it's 99 degrees outside. I'd be wearing pants today. I just would not show my legs because what would they uh they call them sticks, stick figure. I mean, just that I could write down it runs the like I I wouldn't be able to wear shorts because someone would make a comment and it would just ruin me. Ten people would be there, one person makes a comment, the other nine aren't even thinking about the way I look, but one person would make it and it would just stick in my brain.

SPEAKER_02 21:47

At what point did that change a little bit? What point did you put on some weight or some muscle?

SPEAKER_00 21:51

Uh probably my junior year in in college, there was a guy in my fraternity, which was also a Little bit rough because you know, you know, I've got friends from like coming up from Pennsylvania at school, and these kids grew up playing I don't think anyone comes out of Pennsylvania without playing either rugby, football, or wrestling. And so these are these like kind of big dudes and they're they're busting my balls. They're friends, but they're busting my balls about. And there was one guy who was like, look, I'm gonna give you a basic plan. Of course, I didn't work out around anyone because I could barely lift the frickin' bar, probably. But he gave me a nice basic workout plan, and that summer I worked on it, and then just started to naturally, I think, my metabolism started to slow down. Yeah, around my junior year. So from five years old to 19, this is at the forefront of my mind. I loved winter, right? I didn't have to worry about short sleeves and shorts. God forbid, a friend would have a pool party. I mean, Jesus, I would stress over that. I'd be like, how am I gonna work this where I can show up and not be forced to to swim with my shirt on in the pool, you know? So it was so impactful. And and I'm and I'm hanging out with I I always found I didn't have trouble making friends. I had a good sense of humor, I could make people laugh, I was able to maneuver, and I didn't have trouble making friends. So I was friends with a lot of athletes as well. And so you've got these like football players I'm hanging out with. I look like, you know, again, the equipment manager, just like it was huge.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

And did you play sports at all in high school?

SPEAKER_00 23:39

So I played baseball until yeah, baseball we were obsessed, my friends and I. Like uh baseball was everything. We'd find any way to play some form of baseball, even in the winter. And so baseball was everything. So I played baseball up until I was 14, but now I'm already I'm up and running on my other sport. The drinking just became way more important than baseball. I mean, I wasn't a horrible player, but I definitely didn't measure up to my friends. No, I played until 14 and then quit. It's a big regret. Like, I wish I would have played a high school sport. That's okay. I get over it, but no, no sports. I mean, there was a guy, he just he could not believe that I got a bid into the fraternity because he was this like strong guy. And he came up to me one day and he said, I can't believe we let you in here, you fucking skinny little blah blah blah, right? And it was just like subsequently we and I became a brother. He ended up alone with my f another brother, my my pledged brother, a very good friend of mine. He was alone with us. We were walking back from something. We ended up threatening him. Said, hey, we're gonna fuck you up right now for what you did to us when we pledged. And he was just like, no, no, no, come on, man. It was all it was all part of the process. We were ready. Again, not one-on-one, no way, not me. But I had my buddy with me. We were like, We're gonna, we are gonna fucking pay you back right now. And we actually we felt like we accomplished something. We scared him, which uh one-on-one would never have happened. But yeah, just he just couldn't believe that someone my with my build was even allowed in their presence.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

When you told him you were going to fuck him up, that wasn't ball busting that like you legitimately were like, we're gonna beat your fucking ass right now.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Yeah. We were gonna beat his ass uh because and that sounds way too tough guy, but we were gonna we were like, we wanna fuck you up right now because of what you did to it was mainly what he did to me. My friend was real loyal and he was like, We're gonna do you in. But so we scared him. But yeah, he was awful to me. All because of the way I looked. Body image, anyone dealing with that, my I totally identify with anyone who comes in and had those problems or still does, like, I can identify with that. It's it's it's always in the back of your mind.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

When do you first start thinking to yourself, hmm, I might be drinking too much or this might be a problem?

SPEAKER_00 26:09

College. So we I lived in the fraternity house. We would have some really fun parties, but of course you go out on Thursday night, your party isn't till Friday or Saturday, and there were two or three while I was living there that I would just stay. I just stayed in my room. I didn't even go out into the the hall where we're having the party, and we had a basement there where the party would flood down into like it was the house is jam-packed with people having fun, and I would just stay in my room. That's when I started to think this isn't this is because I just needed a break. I was a binge drinker. So, you know, Thursday combined with Friday, something probably happened that made me anxious and full of regret. And so there were two or three times I just bowed out and didn't participate. Or I would I'd head home. I'd I'd go to back to my parents' house while they were all all of my brothers uh were partying. I'd just be like, I gotta get out of here. That's when I started to think about, oof, I don't know. This this doesn't feel right.

SPEAKER_02 27:12

So that's 1920, 21 time frame. You didn't get sober until 3031. What are those next ten years like for you?

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Still a binge drinker, but then I got into my first serious relationship. And so that became a reason to like slow down. And you learn, I've learned, I learned later in early sobriety that I became another sort of far out concept. I became addicted to that relationship, love addiction. So that that ended up becoming my focus. And we would go out sometimes and and drink, or if I so she and I like separated a number of times, we'd break up and have like a two-month span where we're not talking. So I'd make some calls to my boys, and okay, I'm back, and same behaviors. Just immediately, I can't drink without turning. Uh one, the allergy. I fully it might not be the right word, but I fully identify with the this concept of an allergy. After two or three drinks, it's done. I'm just I could have all the plans in the world. Okay, I drove tonight. Uh sometimes I would drive on per like say, okay, I'll I I'll I'll be the driver tonight. We go out to a club or a bar and be like, okay, I'm driving tonight. I can only have two or three. All bets are off once I hit two or three and it's over. It's a total out of bought. It's a different person. So, but I would have a two-month span where I'd be back with the boys and drinking the same way. And just so depri at that point in the my mid-twenties was when it became depressing kind of drinking. Like I was depressed while I was drinking. I was depressed the next day. Depression really kicked in. So yeah, that's what my twenties were like. Periods of the same kind of drinking from just like when I was 13, and then get back in that relationship and cool off.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

Did you have or who did you have in your life telling you that you might have a problem aside from what was in the background?

SPEAKER_00 29:17

Not many people. Not many people. So I had a lot of enablers and also people who drank like me. So not many people until the end. And I wonder subconsciously if I wanted someone to like step in. But nobody really. So my girlfriend at the time didn't see me like that. She never saw him saw me bringing it. So like she didn't see that side of me. I hid it well. So not many until the end. My dad had a talk with me, my girlfriend at the time. But up until then, nobody really pulled me aside. And looking back, I'm not sure it would have made a difference, honestly.

SPEAKER_02 29:54

And so is it fair to say that your father pulling you aside and talking to you and your girlfriend was a major factor in you finally finding your way to recovery?

SPEAKER_00 30:02

I don't think so. It was just the way it was making me feel and the the way I was feeling in the end when it got too much. And so the first time, so I I was not a daily drinker. I didn't have a daily habit. So I think in some ways I was able to get away with not doing a a rehab or detox. I definitely didn't need a detox. Well, the first time I called, it's definitely a family disease. So I called my cousin who uh had been in the program for I'm gonna say about 15 years at that point. I gave him a call and said, Hey man, I I'm in trouble here. And so he brought me to my first couple meetings. I stayed at his place down in Araganset, and we went to a few meetings. It all happened from like I I had to initiate it. Like people asking you to do it didn't just blow it off. That doesn't mean it doesn't work. I think sometimes interventions can work, but it didn't make that much of a difference for me. It had to be I had to be desperate enough to make that phone call. And I was, it was a a really bad string of binges, and I was just like, I think I gotta call my cousin.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

You alluded to it. You you had a couple false starts. So that call to your cousin didn't lead to your your long-term recovery you have now. So how many, for lack of a better term, false starts did you have until you finally caught on?

SPEAKER_00 31:25

Two serious f false starts. So I remember going to my first meeting alone, and my first try, I went to You Don't Have to Be Irish is the name of the meeting on Hope Street. And that was a collective group of a couple young people, some old timers, some folks who who like I probably wouldn't have hung out with, just a wide variety of people. But when I walked in the door, I was a nervous wreck going to my first meeting alone. And this guy, Mike, met me at the door and he just said, Hey, he he must have seen that I was I was just frozen, and he was like, No pressure here, just go sit, grab a coffee, chill out, and immediately just sort of like exhaled when he said that. He became a friend of mine. But yeah, that was my first false time. And I started to go to Providence meetings, got to go s to some East Side meetings, got to meet some really cool people, did not speak to them, shook hands and and took off, but still was there and and listened, identified with folks, felt safe, felt very safe in those meetings, immediately felt like this feeling of safety, but then just I don't know, wasn't strong enough to say no when it presented itself and just went back out.

SPEAKER_02 32:42

How long was each stretch of sobriety in those two?

SPEAKER_00 32:44

I want to say like five or six months. So a good good amount. No sponsor. Maybe the second run I had Carl as my sponsor, but wasn't really I didn't dive in, but I was definitely going to the meetings. I was going to the meeting. I looked forward to that Thursday meeting. I really did. I couldn't wait to get back there and and then started with the m of the Monday meeting, but I I wouldn't even speak. I wouldn't even introduce myself. There was a Monday step meeting, you know, we we we would read. So like it would go around the circle and people would read a passage of the step. So I sat way, way in the back. I was probably in the other room and just couldn't even introduce myself.

SPEAKER_02 33:30

Those would have been relapses. So how did the relapses impact you? Was it something you you know made a grand announcement to family or friends, like, oh shoot, I relapsed, or was it in silence?

SPEAKER_00 33:40

It was in silence. I was by that time, I was by myself. I had finally got my own apartment. Up until now, I had had roommates. I was by myself. Well, not by myself. It was with my friends who were still active. Nobody really knew the first night I enjoyed it, but after that, it was right back to the depressing, very sad way of drinking and partying. And so Yeah, not many people knew that I was even doing it. Like I didn't very you I think you know I'm kind of a private person. You know, it's not like my family really knew how much uh how serious I was taking this.

SPEAKER_02 34:15

Let's jump to the stretch of recovery you're on now, 23 years and counting. What was the best part about your early recovery? And if it's easier, you can touch on, because it's going to be the follow-up question, what was the most challenging part about early recovery?

SPEAKER_00 34:30

The challenge for me was I can still be judgmental, but I was very judgmental back then. And I really had trouble with folks who had less time than me who got it. And now whether they really got it or not, I don't know. But they would talk a good talk. And so, you know, they're starting to really feel good, and the promises were happening. Some of them, it doesn't happen in two months, I don't care. Like, but some some were authentic, and you know, they're getting they're getting back on their they're feeling good. I still felt terrible. I didn't feel good, still very angry. So that was a challenge. So it took me a little bit longer to start feeling that quality sobriety. And so that was a challenge. Best thing I would say was getting the community of people we now hang with. Some of them are gone, like don't know where they are, and you know, they've come and gone. They don't go to meetings anymore, or we just they don't live in Providence anymore. But the group that we fell into is probably the best part. And it didn't happen overnight. So, like, yeah, when you see people, newcomers come in, they probably are thinking, what the hell am I gonna do with my time? It's like to stick with it and you find the right group of people. My father had that, my cousin had that, like this core group of your fellow members and like this the fellowship that came with that. That was probably the the highlight from that was the best time. Just having folks who I could laugh with before the meeting, after the meeting, and still when we get together that today, we still kind of laugh like that. So yeah, that was the the highlight for me. But the challenge was I probably wasn't working as hard as some of these folks who got the gifts right away. But you know, judging from the outside, I'm like, look at this asshole, he's already got it. I mean, give me a break. I wouldn't think that way today. I'd be happy for that person.

SPEAKER_02 36:28

Getting sober and staying sober are two different things. So how do you stay sober?

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Meeting makers make it. Our favorite slogan. For me, it's meetings. Everyone has a different, uh, different approach, I would say. You know, steps were really important for me, but higher power is important. But for me, and I don't go to one every day. I used to first two or three years, but having so I I strayed away from meetings for a good amount of time when when my kids were young, and in the end I had to go back. Like I was a dry drunk, I was I was just out of control. I was like so on edge all the time. So about maybe three or four years ago, I started coming back and having at least one or two meetings a week that I can go to is how I stay sober. But I I don't know, I don't even think about a drink. It doesn't even cross my mind. It would do nothing for me. I would I have no desire. I haven't had a desire to drink in over 20 years. Like it hasn't crossed my mind even on my my worst day. I know now that if I drank today, I would become that 13-year-old kid again. Absolutely. And geez, would that be awful to show to my daughter, to my son, to my wife, like to show I I would be like, I would that's where I end up. I end up that 13-year-old kid who's like, yeah, so man, no way would I subject my family to to that. I can't even imagine. It is kind of funny that my kids haven't seen me with a drink in my hand. They must think that I'm just, you know, such a nerd, but never, never even think about it. But my sobriety was way, way off. It needed to be calibrated because like I was flying off the handle for the smallest things and mainly with the kids. I regret it. But yeah, getting back into meetings. So meetings are the key for me.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

What's something that surprised you about living a sober life that you would have never believed while you were active?

SPEAKER_00 38:30

I think early on it was I was surprised how much fun I had with folks who were sober, laughing so much, finding the right people who had like the same sense of humor. I didn't think we could have that much fun without partying. Uh so yeah, that was the biggest surprise back then. The biggest surprise today, like I never had a picture of where my life would be. But I look around and I'm an adult now. Kids, house, good job, wife. But I I I ne I never had any goals, right? So I never thought, like, I was never like, oh man, I really want this, you know, I really want to be married with kids and all that stuff. But to look at the quality of life today versus, you know, I I just never imagined that it would be like this. But I think this when in terms of surprise, I I look back and think, I never thought I'd end up with friends like, you know, you and the others. Like, I didn't think that was part of the deal. I thought the deal was you go to a meeting, you kind of talk after, and you leave and then you go back to your life. But it the the fact that it's part of my life was the biggest surprise.

SPEAKER_02 39:39

Tell us about a day in the life of Jason now.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

Uh it depends, but like it's all about the kids. My son is driving and and in college, so I don't have to do that. But like my daughter, it's it's like especially any free time usually is she's got some plan that she needs a ride to, and I don't mind doing it at all. I've spent more time sitting in cars by myself on my laptop, I'll do work, sometimes I sleep. He played hockey, so I I you know this like practices at ridiculous times of the day, his travel games. I I took him to everything, so a lot of time sitting in the car, just you know, and so that's a big part is like doing what being there for them is the top priority. But good job, take off early in the morning, addicted to coffee, but that's okay. And then I'm just getting back to the gym now over the last two weeks, and that is does so much for my mental health. So, you know, work, try to find time to work out, come home. I'm the cook of the house now, which I just never thought that would be. I used to cook ground beef and then throw like ragu sauce over it and then throw it on top of pasta or eat tuna fish out of the can. Now I'm cooking meals here, so I come home and cook and then sit down and chill with the the family. That's it. That's a perfect day for me.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

What would you tell the younger version of you to spare them some pain?

SPEAKER_00 41:19

I would push the younger version of me to start therapy. I would push the young version of me to go talk to somebody. And it it's not a family member or talk to get a structured therapy practice where they go talk to somebody. Because when I finally did that, it was I just unloaded my first therapist just for the first year. It was a game changer to just unload things I had been holding on to for so long. So it's not really mind-blowing, but go talk to someone. And my parents were busy, they didn't know. We are collectively chipping away at generations of addiction, my family. And so they didn't know any better when it came to this stuff. Now I know a little bit more than them, and I think my kids will know way more than me. So I don't think it occurred to them back then to be like, hey, Jason's a little off. Um, maybe we can get him to go talk to somebody. I don't even think it was part of the thinking back then, really. Thank God it is today.

SPEAKER_02 42:25

How old were you when you went to that first therapy appointment? Were you unloaded?

SPEAKER_00 42:29

Probably 25, 26. I think it could have saved a lot of pain to get a ton of stuff off my chest that I had been holding on to.

SPEAKER_02 42:38

A brief summary of your family dynamics, siblings, parents, their availability. You just alluded to it, but uh what what was that like?

SPEAKER_00 42:45

Yeah, dysfunctional, my dad's alcoholism, right? He got sober right when I started. And the man he became versus who he was before that. I mean, I got to see the the miracle happen in real time. But before that, it was a little chaotic from his drinking. So I would I would call it as dysfunctional, but also a very loyal group of people. I have two sisters and a brother, very loyal to a fault, almost enabling type of loyalty, where if something bad happened to me, it was not my fault. Like they had my back 100%. But no, the the the dynamic was that it was it was pre-my dad's sobriety and post two different worlds. It's interesting. When he passed, we were going through his stuff. When he was in rehab, we all made him a card. Mine was just ridiculous. I had um, I drew a and colored a uh Budweiser can on the card and and wrote, you know, you can do it, Dad, or something like that. I we found it in his guy saved everything. So when he passed, we were kind of booking through stuff. My sister was like, Check this out. And it was my card that I made for him while he was in rehab. He got out and never looked back. The reason I'm I think I'm a a pretty good dad. Because of the father he was to me after he got sober. You know, I do things each day that remind me of him and like, wow, I learned that from him.

SPEAKER_02 44:08

What was maybe one of the uglier moments that you saw of your father growing up when he was active?

SPEAKER_00 44:14

They would separate sometimes. And I would always go with him. I'd always go live with him. But then they finally committed to making it work. But two or three times he he moved out of the house and I ended up going with him. So he was, I think he was my hero from the start. Ugly moments. He would yell. And that's probably my biggest flaw as a parent is it's not daily. It's it's rare, in my opinion. Although you talk to my daughter, she'll say you're always yelling, but that's not the case. But I would I I I can yell sometimes, right? And that would be ugly moments for me. Just like shouting at me. But nothing that stands out, I will say that in the end of at the end of his drinking, I didn't respect him at all. I hated it. Yeah, I thought he was kind of uh you know, I looked at him and I was just like, oh man, clean it up, buddy. Meanwhile, I'm out with my buddies after behaving like that, but nothing that stands out, but I didn't like being around him when he was drunk.

SPEAKER_02 45:14

All right. Well, I end each podcast with this question. What didn't we talk about today that you think people should either know about you, your story, or just in general that would be helpful for listeners to know?

SPEAKER_00 45:25

I think that regardless of what it looks like, if you commit yourself to it, you will have a life that exceeds anything you can think of today. You can almost guarantee if you get sober, stick around, build a network like we did. It's going to be beyond anything you can imagine. And I'm not sure anybody can believe that, but if I look around at all of the folks we got sober with who are still sober today, all of their lives are better. It's not perfect and there are dark times, but so maybe that's something they need to know about me is like I like to joke, but in in all seriousness, it is beyond anything I could have imagined. So I would just really ask people to stick around. And it's interesting. I think I told you this. I finally went to a class reunion. I hadn't been to any of them. And this guy pulls me aside, he knows that I'm sober, and he says, Hey, I need some help. Wondering if you could help me out. I said, Absolutely. I said, There's a a meeting, and before I could even finish the word, he said, I'm not going to those fucking meetings. And I'm like, Well then, I mean, you can call me, but I'm not I I don't know any other way. Sorry, buddy. Like, I just I don't know what do you want. You know, I can just call me anytime, but like if you want my help, my help is like getting picking you up and bringing you to a meeting. I'm a strong believer in this program and what it can do to people. I've seen it. So yeah, that's all I got, John.

SPEAKER_02 46:55

I've acknowledged this on other episodes. This isn't the only way to get sober, but it's the only way we know how.

SPEAKER_00 47:00

Exactly. So like if someone asks me for help, I'll I'll help them. Like they can call me, but in terms of a practice, I can't give them any advice other than what I've done. Then it works for millions of people. Yeah, I've I've noticed that. Like one of those meetings.

SPEAKER_02 47:17

It's like, what I mean, we we felt that exact same way. So it's interesting because we can relate completely to that statement. I didn't get sober thinking.

SPEAKER_00 47:25

I would say that if I'm talking to someone who's never been to a meeting before, the first thing I would do is just squash any reservations they have, any concerns. These are safe pla this is a safe place, man. You are not uh whatever you're thinking, it's not i i if you're scared to go to a meeting or you're looking down on it, it is not that. It is the my first year, it was the safest place I could be.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

If you sold recovery to people saying you're gonna go to an AA meeting multiple times per week for the rest of your life, that's kind of a hard sell. Yeah. And so it's it's interesting how we eventually find that to be acceptable to us, but I can completely relate to the person that says, I'm not doing that.

SPEAKER_00 48:07

I think I wasn't insulted either. It was just kind of like, sorry, buddy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:12

Uh happy to help, but I I can't coach you on something I know nothing about.

SPEAKER_00 48:16

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 48:16

Jason H., thank you very much for doing the podcast this week. I hope I see you in person sometime soon. John Kay, thank you. As we say in recovery, keep coming.

SPEAKER_01 48:38

Keep moving, there ain't no looking back. Choose your weapons, lay them with no regret. Got the side of the story and fucking move back. JD catch you back to the chat. You play in the seed, they don't wait for the tweet. Snuck your foot in the door, they don't wait for the