Making Friends: Trials, Tribulations, & Triumphs

Let's discuss the trials, tribulations, and triumphs of making friends as adults – particularly as people who recently relocated to a new community. 

Join me, Lacey Squier, in conversation with my friends Jess Kulik, Kelsey Lee, and Lucy Soderstrom as we talk about the experiences and resources we drew upon to host an Ely Folk School class on how to make friends. 

Boundary Waters Connect -- Hello Neighbor 

The Wilderness Edge Podcast is sponsored by Boundary Waters Connect, the economic and community development program of Northeastern Minnesotans for Wilderness. We offer programs and services for new, established, seasonal, and prospective residents to the Ely area. 

Boundary Waters Connect – Making Friends 

Check out some additional resources on the topic of making friends, particularly as adults. 

Ely Folk School 

Boundary Waters Connect is proud to sponsor and frequently collaborate with the Ely Folk School, which builds community by offering learning experiences that celebrate the wilderness heritage, art, history, culture, and craft of the people of northern Minnesota. 

Potluck Kitchenware 

Potluck Kitchenware is a cooking and baking retail store, as well as the presenting sponsor of the Hello Neighbor programs and services facilitated by Boundary Waters Connect. Check out Potluck Kitchenware on the corner of Chapman Street and First Avenue in downtown Ely. 

Platonic: The Science of Attachment Can Help You Make – and Keep – Friends

This book, written by Dr. Marissa G. Franco, was one of our favorite resources in the process of learning about and teaching a class on how to make friends. 

Chapters & Timestamps: 

1:39 | Introducing our guests: Kelsey Lee, Lucy Soderstrom, and Jess Kulik.

5:40 | Finding and forging bonus families.

9:31 | Why host a class on how to make friends?

10:08 | To profess the profound importance of unapologetic initiative.

13:11 | We can't do it for you. We offer tools & empowerment to be your own agent of social connection.

17:26 | We wanted to offer clarity to the process and social norms in our community.

20:47 | How do we talk more openly about what's difficult about making friends?

22:00 | What does your attachment style have to do with making friends?

25:00 | Dread is part of the process (and transitions are hard).

30:20 | It's a wonderful life -- seeing and being seen helps!

31:50 | Check out The Art of the Gathering by Priya Parker.

34:13 | Distinguish between your "work" self and your "personal" self.

39:52 | Give yourself permission to be cared for by community.

43:00 | Consider the power of propinquity & the mere exposure effect.

48:23 | Develop rejection tolerance & be friends with yourself first.

51:33 | You can only succeed if you define your friendship goals.

52:17 | Remember: this process takes time.

54:23 | Share your interests widely; our communities are full of inquisitive, eager people.

55:41 | You can have anything, but you might have to make it yourself.

57:34 | On the pros and cons of being known (and wearing your grimiest pajamas at the grocery store).

59:30 | Mind the liking gap -- you're more well liked than you think!

Transcript

Lacey Squier 0:07

I came to Ely from a different angle than most people do because I'm not here for the nature and I didn't come here to go into the wonderwaters. I actually try to avoid those things. You can find an audience for a story, an audience for a passion, you can find a market for a business. There's so much space in which you can fill with things that you care about or want to try or want to bring forward to share with others. It feels good to get a little messy, and sometimes friendship is messy. Welcome to Wilderness Edge, a podcast for people who are curious about communities on the edge of the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness. Join me, Lacey Squire, for juicy conversation with area residents and all who have a heart home up north. We offer dialogue about what gives northeastern Minnesota the edge, as well as some real talk about the sometimes sharp edges of living in remote and rural locations. In this episode, my friends and colleagues Jess Kulik, Kelsey Lee, and Lucy Soderstrom, join me in discussing the trials, tribulations, and triumphs of making friends as adults, particularly as people who recently relocated to a new community. Hi, ladies. Hi. Welcome, welcome. It's so nice to have you here. So our listeners might not know who

Introducing our guests: Kelsey Lee, Lucy Soderstrom, and Jess Kulik.

Lacey Squier 1:39

you are. I wonder if you'd be willing to start by introducing yourselves. And maybe Kelsey, you could go first. Yeah, absolutely. My name is Kelsey Lee. I own Potluck Kitchenware in Ely, which is a specialty cooking and baking store. And I'm also really proud to say that I am the Potluck. I via Potluck am the presenting sponsor of the Hello Neighbor program of Boundary Waters Connect. And we are so proud and honored that you would support Boundary Waters Connect in that way. That's really cool. Yep. Well, thank you for that initial introduction. I'm going to dig in a little bit before we do. Lucy, would you share a little bit about who you are? Hello. I am the executive director of the Ely Folk School, and I'm the program director of the Ely Film Festival and moved to Ely full-time in 2020. Wonderful. Thank you. And what about you, Jess? I'm Jess Kulik. I'm the administrative and communications coordinator for Boundary Waters Connect. And I am on the NLA Northern Lakes Arts Association board. And I moved to Ely full-time in 2023. Lovely. Wonderful. And how did y'all I mean, we don't want to linger here. And listeners, you know, especially folks who listen to the What's Up Ely podcast will maybe recall hearing a little bit about your stories from previous episodes. But um say one layer more, if you would, about how it came to be that y'all moved to Ely. Yeah. So I showed up in the fall of 2019 because I had been sewing professionally in the kind of outdoor gear and apparel space, doing repairs and alterations. And I was after production sewing experience. So where you're making a garment from start to finish. So of course I came to Ely to sew for Wintergreen Northern Wear, which I had the um opportunity to do throughout the pandemic, which was very much that production experience that I was looking for, didn't know I was going to get at that level. But I'm really proud to say that we made medical gowns um throughout that period of time. Um and then of course shifted back to making um Wintergreen's, you know, classic um lineup of outdoor apparel. Wow. It your comment just makes me think of the notion of past lives because we all have so many different versions of ourselves, but it's like, oh, tell me about some of your past lives. And that's a that's a nice little juicy nugget. What about you, Lucy? What are some of your past lives that led you up here? Well, unique to this group, but really representative of many of my friends in town. I first came to Ely because I was guiding canoe trips. Uh, I was guiding for YMCA Camp Widjiwaggin, working with teenagers uh in the boundary waters and Quedeco wildernesses, and eventually came back and settled down. Cool. Jess, you got some past lives? Yes, I initially came to Ely visiting my bonus grandparents, um, who have a house on White Iron Lake. They've since passed away, but my bonus parents own it now, and I was visiting my entire life. And then I got sick, and Ely ended up being a place where when we would visit my bonus family, my symptoms weren't quite as bad. So we moved here trying to get a better quality of life. And then I thankfully was able to recover from being sick and we liked it so much we stayed. Wow. And a bonus family. Say more about that. My bonus family is um the Teleychuses, and Pam and Phil have been bonus parents in my life since I was a baby. They've been my parents' best friends

Finding and forging bonus families.

Lacey Squier 5:40

basically my entire life. And Pam's mom, um, grandma Elsie, was the one who lived here and who we would visit, and we called her Grandma Elsie my whole life. So they've been just extra family members. That's cool. I love the idea of bonus family. I think I'm gonna start adopting bonus families. I have a rule that everyone needs more grandmas. Everyone does need more grandmas. I'm waiting for the sign up list opportunity to join for that, the wait list for bonus grandmas. I've got to. Yeah, we can sign up. Well, and I hate to say it, but it might be an informal deal, right? There might not be a list. We might just have to go. I mean, we have to go forge our own path. But that is something that the gift of Ely has been some of the like coffee dates at like women's homes who are in their 70s and 80s and they go on for hours and there's coffee cake and pots of coffee. And I don't know that I've gotten to like bonus grandma level status, but I'm gonna keep working on that. Keep working on that. Speaking of work, this group of people is together in this space, in part because we recently collaborated on a project together. We worked together to host a program called Hello Neighbor, Let's Be Friends, which was an evolution of something Boundary Waters Connect had been doing for a while. Semi-regular new resident socials, social mixers. And those were very, relatively speaking, very open-ended, open house style programs where people would simply come into a space, most regularly the folk school, but not always, and interact and sort of self-define as new people or self-define as someone who wanted to interact and welcome the new folks. Um, anyone wanna take a shot at explaining what Hello Neighbor Let's Be Friends is and how it's different than those open house style programs I was just describing? Well, the mixers are nice because it gets people in the same room talking to each other and interacting, but there was feedback and through many coffee dates and all of our interactions with others around town, a need for more guidance beyond that. Just meeting someone isn't necessarily a direct path toward being their friend. There's often a lot of steps in between. And it can be hard in a new space to meet people and not immediately either try to force yourself to immediately exchange phone numbers and make plans or to not do those things and then wonder if you're gonna see this person again or how and when, um, and how to forge that relationship going from this open-ended space. So Hello Neighbor, let's be friends came to fill some of that gap and to make it a little bit clearer what the path toward friendship is, and acknowledge that it is hard and long and often not a very direct, simple path, but that these steps are within our control and to allow people to have agency, to empower them to have that agency, to continue to try to make friends and find their friendship journey and acknowledge really that it's not one step. You don't just sit down next to somebody, share crayons, and now you're friends. That doesn't happen when you're adults. So it's a spot And twerk because I don't have any crayons. Yes, that's true. Well, that's something we can fix. Would you share your crayons with me? I would. Thank you. You have to give them back though. Yeah. Sharing, that's yeah, yeah. It doesn't have to be a gift. But well, thank you, Jess.

Why host a class on how to make friends?

Lacey Squier 9:31

Um question for everyone Why did this feel like a project that you wanted to be involved with? Like what about the Hello Neighbor Let's Be Friends evolution that compelled you to want to help be a driver of it? Well, I think for me it was actually relatively recent personal experience of so, in one of the kind of touch points for Hello Neighbor Let's Be Friends um is a book that I love. I'm actually holding on to it as we as we sit together today.

To profess the profound importance of unapologetic initiative.

Kelsey Lee 10:08

Um, Platonic by um Dr. Marissa G. Franco. Um, and she covers many necessary aspects kind of along the developmental path of solid friendships. Um, and it all starts with what she calls unapologetic initiative, um, which is like taking your friendship landscape into your own hands and finding the agency in yourself to put yourself out there and start a continuous process of making connections, trying to get to know people better, um, really holding that process yourself. And I, over the last six or seven months, um kind of to seize um different business opportunities that I spotted or opportunities to kind of co-market and things, um, I recognized that I needed to build some rapport with other professionals in town to be able to seize these opportunities that I identified that I identified. Like, hey, Potluck plus this business or organization could do amazing things. Um, I need to start by getting to know that business owner or that um executive director. Um, and I really saw that by reaching out in that way, um, it led to a level of kind of reciprocity of social opportunity that I didn't expect. Um and it started with me making invitations, not putting, not just showing up to something and hoping for invitations to follow or um hoping that just proximity to something would would yield invitations, but actually me taking an affirmative step um towards as it as it ended up um just inviting a cohort of um colleagues to a business networking slash Clifton Strengths workshop. Um and so that was such a successful way of making not only professional contacts, but also friends that um it really was kind of a case in point for me. Like it gave me this solid belief in the message of hello neighbor, let's be friends. Um, so that's that's where my buy-in has come from for it, um, that it's a winning strategy. Um, and it's something I certainly wanted to be part of sharing with our community. It's a winning strategy. Yes. Unapologetic initiative. Yes, yes. What was the phrase? It was a Priya Parker quote. The best way to get a seat at the table is to host the table. Love that. What about you, Lucy? What about the notion of being a little bit more strategic compelled you to participate? Or maybe, I mean, maybe that's not what compelled you, right? Maybe we just invited you. We're like, Lucy, you're a part of this planning committee now.

We can't do it for you. We offer tools & empowerment to be your own agent of social connection.

Lucy Soderstrom 13:13

Trying to figure out how to say this, and Lacy, you can have Brett take this out if it's not something that we want to share. We love real talk, but you're my friend, Lacey. And I've watched, you know, over the last few years as Boundary Waters Connect has been offering this Hello Neighbor program and really working on new resident retention and making sure that new residents, trying to make sure that new residents feel resourced and grounded and able to feel holistically supported both socially and emotionally, in ways that you know make them want to stay in town and make them feel valued. But being like, how do I how do I do all that? All like that's really heavy for me as one person and now us as two people of Boundary Waters to connect to take on. And this really intrigued me because it was like, yeah, that is really heavy for two individuals with their own lives and you know, full-time jobs and other jobs, and lots of friends, and of course, a desire for endless new friends. But part of it was like, yeah, that is too much for you. You can't, you know, you can't hold on to, oh, is is this new resident following up? Like, should I follow up on our coffee date? Have have how are they doing, you know? And so having a platform that offers not only connection, but also tools and empowerment. One sounded really fun because I love information. Um, and two, sounded like a great way to take some of that pressure off of you. Yeah, no, I love that. Thank you, Lucy. And I think that is something I know I've said this to you before, but as a as a collaborator, especially, but also as a friend, something I appreciate about you is you bringing that sort of like you bring a really refreshing level of pragmatism. And sometimes it's a little sassy, right? Because you're like, well, you aren't personally just like it's not your job to personally be friends with every new resident in town. So what what is this program and how is it helping people find friends out in the community, right? Because and I love I love the one-on-one coffee date program, and I genuinely feel that I have authentic friendships with every person I've ever had a one-on-one date coffee date with. You can't be the exact type of every single type of friend to everybody who can be a type of friend. Right. So that's like its own gem. We can let's meet some of your social needs by having this coffee date where we bond and we have this very meaningful, authentic conversation. And also, what are some tools that everyone can have to be their own agent of social change? I think is how you originally put it. And we were so moved by that phrase. We're like, yes, how do we help people feel and embrace the idea that they are their own agents of having their social needs met? And my own relationship to the program is just a profound understanding of the magnitude of social need that I have, for example, and that makes me think other people must as well. Like, even though I'm a highly social creature and I have a lot of really fulfilling friendships, there I still have unmet social needs. And if I feel that way, certainly other people must feel that way. And is uh an open house style mixer adequate to the challenge of making people feel like they have the resources to be fully empowered and their own agents of social change.

We wanted to offer clarity to the process and social norms in our community.

Jess Kulik 17:26

Do you want to add anything, Jess, about what compelled you? I mean, you have like a whole Yeah, I came from a different angle. I came to Ely from a different angle than most people do because I'm not here for the nature and I didn't come here to go into the boundary waters. I actually try to avoid those things. Um and so um I but I also um I came here very sick and also having just found out I was autistic, and I study and I'm getting a doctoral degree and studying social relationships and executive functioning. And so for me, a piece of it is that there's access issues and barriers into friendships that can be so overwhelming for people in terms of not knowing what to say or how to introduce themselves to someone or what opportunities are really open for them. I know that there's a rule that Emily Rose talks about all the time, where if somebody talks about something in front of you, then you're invited. But if you don't know that that is the rule, then you don't know to accept that and to take on that invitation and to be that person that shows up. And I think too, just in general, there's a lot of people who come to Ely on their various paths that have been hurt in other places socially or have had trials and tribulations along their friendship journey. And Ely can be such a welcoming and inclusive and supportive place, but you have to get connected to your people and to find those connections and build them. And if you've come from a space where making and having friends was much more challenging, or you've recently gone through a friend breakup, or you have never quite figured out how to make friends in an easy way, it doesn't seem as obvious the ways to kind of plug into the Ely community as it might to others. And so having this class and giving people like direct steps and feedback and saying, like, you can show up to these things, you can invite people, even just giving that permission sometimes is a lot of what people need. And I like clarity and having this be, having this class be more clarity for people as they find their space in Ely really drew me to it as well. So that we're adding a layer of just you of encouragement, but also here are some things you can actually do starting tomorrow. Well, and from the folk school angle, too. It's what is compelling is like, yeah, here are some techniques, but you don't have to be an expert to teach a class in something. Folk means people. We're here as humans, as neighbors, sharing what we know and being both teachers and students in every single experience. And to demonstrate that on the level of friendship feels really powerful as well. For sure. Yeah, because it's like convening people and not trying to say, oh, we have arrived, we have solved, we have figured it out, let us tell you how we did it. Honestly, so much of the process of putting together the hello neighbor, let's be friends class and program and curriculum, because we think pretty broadly about it, is us having been in conversation sort of continuously as a result of this collaboration, and just thinking, how do we loop more people into this conversation?

How do we talk more openly about what's difficult about making friends?

Jess Kulik 20:47

How do we talk more openly about what's difficult about making friends? And frankly, it is such a raw conversation, it can be such a raw conversation because Kelsey, you're you mentioned the book Platonic. And the subtitle of that book is How the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make and Keep Friends. So, you know, there's this psychologist who has written a book on making friends as an adult. And, you know, unfortunately, the foundation of it is deep self-awareness, like profound, a profound willingness to confront um the hardships associated with your attachment style. So it's like compelling people to go like really deep into their own understanding of self as the foundation for how you connect for with other people. So it's a it's a tough conversation, it's a huge conversation, and really we were driven to invite people into that conversation. Because what's the I mean the the attachment part of it, right? Was basically I feel Kelsey, like you have a good handle on this.

What does your attachment style have to do with making friends?

Jess Kulik 22:00

So tell me if I'm getting it right. Like your attachment style in the simplest sense is what you might project into ambiguity in a relationship. Yes, that's her exact point, the author's point, that so many times in relationships, you know, platonic relationships, romantic relationships, professional relationships at all stages, there's a lot of ambiguity. People don't exactly tell you what they think of events that have transpired, of you as a person, of the nature of your relationship. And so there's so many moments of ambiguity and your attachment style, whether it's secure, avoidant, anxious, I think there are some lesser common styles as well, perhaps one that's lesser common. Um, your attachment style informs how you interpret those moments of ambiguity. Um certainly having some awareness of maybe where you fall in the framework of attachment styles. And it's not where you fall as a single point on an attachment spectrum for all relationships. It's where you tend to be at with new relationships. I think an important point about, and I should say I am not a social scientist, um, but just my understanding of attachment, attachment theory is that um everybody is capable of reaching a point of secure attachment with all of their relationships. It's just that some of us, based on past history, um, struggle in, you know, in different ways. Um, so yeah, like just for me, just reading one chapter about attachment and then it's sprinkled throughout the rest the rest of the book, but that one chapter, um, some things clicked for me for sure, you know, and it's sort of a lens now that I have always been seeing through, you know, in my particular case. Um, I've always been looking at relationships through this lens. Um, but I was so close to it, I didn't realize. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And yeah, and and we didn't actually focus very much on the attachment part in the class that we hosted in the Hello Neighbor event that that we facilitated. And like I said, it's a broader curriculum, but it does end up being so useful. And we we were very consistent with our uh recommendation of the book itself. We had other resources, so I'm wondering if you ladies would join me in just sort of sharing about some of the other resources that we drew upon. And I want listeners to know that I've linked in the show notes. Um, some of them are on the Boundary Waters Connect website, right? We have this Hello Neighbor program, it is a big part of what Boundary Waters Connect is, and we have a page on our website for the Hello Neighbor programs and services you can learn about, and now a resource page for some of you know quick access to these links. So

Dread is part of the process (and transitions are hard).

Jess Kulik 25:00

I wonder if you'd be willing to share a little bit, Jess, actually specifically about the dread topic. Yes, I think one thing that happens for most of us is that we go through our day and we know we have a plan at 7 p.m. that night and we're getting to the end of our workday, and we start dreading that plan. Like we just want to go home, get in our pajamas, watch a movie. And especially post-pandemic, I think it's gotten a lot easier to feel like we should just default to going home since we spent so much time kind of being away from others, and it's it can be hard to come out of that. But there was this TikTok where the woman who was speaking talked about how dread is part of the process because you dread anything that isn't currently what you're doing. Transition can be so hard that you just dread the transition from what you're currently doing to the next thing, and it everything's going to feel harder and more work than just going home and putting up pajamas. It's really hard to shower. Yes. I was actually just gonna say, Jess, like you're an you're an expert on executive functioning, like, and I've I've heard it said that you know, neurodivergence can really impact like your relationship to transitions of any kind. Yes. And yeah, like sometimes just I have no giddy up and go. So, like, say more about the transitions being hard thing. Transitions um require us to have energy to navigate like the thought of the transition and then through the transition and then the new activity. Whatever you're doing currently, you are able to have more energy resources to do than whatever you're going to do next, in that we need a certain amount of like dopamine, essentially, in order to change our from our activity now to a new activity. Our brain showering. Yes. So our brain requires dopamine to have movement, to like get up and move. So the idea that my official phrase, giddy up and go. Yes. And so if you want to go for a mental health walk, for instance, as many of us do, the to start that walk, you have to have dopamine in your brain that you can pay in order to get your body up and moving. And if you don't have dopamine for whatever reason, maybe whatever you're doing right now has been draining it, or you're just getting tired, or you haven't eaten recently, or whatever it is, that transition can then feel so much harder because you don't have access to the chemicals your brain needs in order to make the transition happen. And on top of that, sometimes we have busy days where we think we plan out our day in terms of meetings and emotional resources. And then you get to the end of the day and you just feel emotionally drained because two extra things happened and your sleeve got caught on a door handle when you moved through a room. And you just feel like emotionally you can't handle the next activity. And that's another example of that dopamine and like our brain not having the resources in order to make the transition happen. And I call it the emotional economy in my research. And so you need to have positive, you need to have emotions stored up in your emotional wallet so that you can pay in order to do the next activity. But if you spent a hundred emotional dollars throughout your day and you need 20 more emotional dollars to go to this event and you have five emotional dollars, that is you're not gonna be able to pay that. And the dread could get really big. And this isn't to say that every single time that you get to the end of the workday, you go do the thing you're dreading. Sometimes rest and going home is the right call, but it is something to think about that dread doesn't inherently mean you should skip a social opportunity. Well, dread isn't gonna cost more. Like dread maybe shouldn't be considered a deterrent because it's actually like omnipresent. Yeah, it really is. Like we dread a lot of things in our lives. I go to the gym almost every day, and I dreaded going to the gym today, even though it's part of my daily normal routine. You know, I might I love talking to the three people here. I dreaded getting into my car and driving over because I was doing something else. So, like, dread isn't it's sort of in the background and underneath a lot of the feelings that we're having and a lot of the activities that are going on. And being able to acknowledge that, like, oh, I just don't want to get in my car and drive in, like drive through the rain to a new location and then get out and walk through the rain is not the same dread as dreading something because it's really something you don't want to do and you should have said no. It's misaligned. It's misaligned. Right. Because how many times have we felt like, oh, I don't want to do this thing, and then you get there, you're doing and you're like, I'm so glad I'm doing this thing. I like I like the you know, two-minute rule or something. Like, if you don't want to go for a walk, okay, I'll go for a two-minute walk. And then once you're outside, it's a lot easier to make it into a 25-minute walk. Yeah, once you move through that dread component and you get to the next thing, it's so much easier. Yeah, so dread is a factor, feeling dread and the process of sort of letting dread have its place and then also working through it because we know it's a part of the process. That's something. So we have that. We did link a video of that TikTok on the Boundary Water Disconnect website. Um, what's another resource that we drew upon in our conversations?

It's a wonderful life -- seeing and being seen helps!

Jess Kulik 30:20

Since I was little, I watched the movie It's a Wonderful Life every single Christmas Eve. And I linked that movie because when I think about you know, the sometimes hardship of social anxiety and the feeling like, oh, is this enough? Like, am I do I have what I want in that show George Bailey goes through and you know doesn't is like, oh no, I would be better off if I weren't around. Like all of the people that I love would have better lives if I weren't here. And then the scope or the grandeur by which he's he's touched so many people is illustrated. And it's really about like, oh, I am more important than I know, I am more seen than I know, and when I'm in this period of like, you know, it's it's good to keep in mind, like I'm feeling this way, but I don't know the magnitude of my presence, right? And what your presence, how much of a gift it could be for someone else, right? Yeah. Knowing those ripple effects. What are some other resources we talked about, Kelsey? Um, so another book um that we

Check out The Art of the Gathering by Priya Parker.

Jess Kulik 31:50

included in the resource list, and this is one that I am still in the middle of simply because I'm savoring it, because it is truly just a masterclass in hosting. Um, it's called The Art of the Gathering by Priya Parker, um, who is um, I think this is incredible that somebody who is a trained, like high-stakes group facilitator wrote a book that is accessible to um hosts of all stripes. So it is about how you convene a group, the purpose of gathering, um, how to exclude people from a gathering in a generous way, in a way that serves the purpose of the gathering. Um, her perspective on this is incredible and really nuanced, but also super actionable. Um, so that's the art of the gathering. Um, and maybe a year from now we can reconvene and I will have finished it at that point. Well, I mean, I love the idea of savoring a book, right? No need to rush through it. It's gonna be there. And Priya Parker is all over the place, right? MBR just did a life kit on hosting and she was featured. She was just a guest on the Ezra Klein show. I mean, her work, people, I think, generally speaking, writ large culturally right now, are recognizing the value of human and social connection and gathering. And so her message is very ripe for the moment, and we were just part of uh many, many people seeing that, right? Um and I just I love you know, this group of people is very interested in learning and research and very intentional with how we go about things, but we recognize not everyone else goes about their work that way. So we put together these resources, it informs our approach to the work, but we aren't necessarily thinking everyone needs to consume all of these. But if you want to dabble, there's many ways to dabble. And actually, I would love if listeners out there have a resource on the topic of making friends and or hosting that they think is has been inspiring and transformative to them, we would love to hear it, right? So by all means, email me at lacey at boundarywatersconnect.org. Um,

Distinguish between your "work" self and your "personal" self.

Jess Kulik 34:13

I'd like to transition to talking about some of our actual experiences with relationship building. This is the Wilderness Edge Podcast. Um, we want to talk about what we think gives our communities an edge in a positive sense and what can be hard, what can be difficult about um life up here. And I would say I mean the the the journey and the ups and downs of the journey of having your social needs met is a source of hardship. It can be for sure. It has been at times for me. Um so I wonder if what you might be willing to share about your own experiences that sheds light on this process for you. I know Lucy, you said we aren't experts, right? But we are people who are on this journey with our eyes open and a real like desire to figure it out for ourselves. Um so what are we learning along the way? Also, can listeners hear the flicker? Is it a northern flicker? It is a northern flicker. I I believe there's a territorial dispute going on on my roof. Between a woodpecker and a northern flicker? I think the I think it's two flickers. I just got the report from outside that it sounds like two flickers. Oh, it's two flickers. My producer's in my two flickers on the roof. I'm gonna. It's that chattering call and then this drumming sounds that they do as part of their like territorial both of those? Oh my gosh, seriously? Yeah, both of those sounds are northern flickers. Well, they need to be listening to us talk about how to make friends. I know. Calm down. Let's be friends here. Okay, back to friends and maybe disputes, right? What are some of our stories of relationship building or some maybe anecdotes from the journey that that are poignant and relevant to share? If anyone would would be so kind as to share. I always have lots to say, but well, I suppose I'll just kick us off with something that's maybe on the lighter side. But for me, it's it's been interesting to experience um being a business owner who folks have gotten to know over the last few years. I'm often in my store. Um, I'm, you know, the primary person there. Um, and it's been interesting to experience um trying to make friends concurrently with running a business with so much like interfacing with customers. And I take a very conversational approach to customer service. Um, and what's interesting about that is when I'm at work, I am wearing, I'm wearing a work hat, you know, um, on on top of you know, just being myself, I'm wearing a work hat. And um I have sort of found that um many of my friends and you know, acquaintances, neighbors in town, I think feel that interacting with me in my store um is a friendship experience. It is a social experience. Um, but for me, any conversation that happens at my business, I, you know, I'm wearing I'm wearing that business owner hat. Um, and I have gotten the sense from other business owners that they experience something similar, which is that you of course are always wearing that hat in your business, but it that hat kind of eclipses your personal hat, you know, your um your more um personal. I I'm losing the train of thought. Sorry. Well, does it like and I this seems too bold. I was gonna say, does it impede your ability to be fully authentic? But that feels like not the right words, but of course, like there's it feels more authentic to the patron than it does to you because you're wearing the work hat. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And you maybe would relish the opportunity to have more equality. Like, again, equality seems like not the right word either, but it's like a better balance. Yeah, because I think what can happen is um, of course, I try to be very good at my job. Um, and Andy are. Oh, thank you. Um, but that I think creates an expectation that I mean personally am more outgoing and more extroverted, um, and even conversational than I actually am. Um and and as I may be when I'm just showing up as myself. Um, and that that's there's nothing wrong with that. Um, you know, but I have clarity on the difference between me when I'm at work and me when I'm at the grocery store. Um, but I sometimes wonder if um expectations held by others is that wherever I am in town, even in my yard or something, um, that I will show up as my work self when, you know, the the real self um is a little quieter. I'll be honest, is a little quieter, a little more reserved, um, and less likely to um be so chatty. I'm very chatty in the store. Thank you for sharing. Any other thoughts? Oh, I mean, the work self versus quote unquote versus personal self is definitely a uh a source of trial, I think, in and in a particularly in a small community.

Give yourself permission to be cared for by community.

Jess Kulik 39:53

I moved here because I was sick and in the journey to recovering from that, which thankfully I have, but the journey out of recovery wasn't straightforward and it wasn't like one day I was sick and the next day I was fine. And so throughout the course of the last few years of dealing with that in the aftermath of being as sick as I was, um, I've had several other health things come up. And they've been sort of in a way that I couldn't easily mask or hide them. So when I was showing up to work things or to meetings, it was it could, it was very obvious to the other people in the group that I wasn't necessarily okay and that I wasn't feeling the best. And then, and so then there was this one, there was this one meeting where I showed up and had clear, very clearly had a health situation come up. And um, and the women in that group didn't say anything, but they acknowledged that I wasn't feeling well. And then the next day, and over the course of the days after, just invited me to coffee or would let me know that they were going to this event that we were all going to. Would I like a ride? And they showed up in very quiet ways that didn't acknowledge, nobody ever directly said anything about my health. They would check in and ask how I was, but nobody questioned or asked me or or needed details in order to show up. But they knew I didn't like to drive, they knew we only had one car, they knew that I would be going to these events and they knew that many people have a tendency to self-isolate when they're going through health challenges. Um, and that I am a typically very social person and I wasn't acting like my normal self. And so they showed up in these very quiet, care-filled ways. And so for me, part of my journey was just spending some time acknowledging that that was a way to receive care and love, and then allowing it to happen because sometimes we want to fight that and try to do it ourselves and say that we don't need this, or or try to like self-deprecate a little bit in that situation, or try to get better faster, even and push for that so that we don't have to take up more space. But in that moment and in the weeks after that, I could just I had to work on accepting that this was care and love that I was being given, and I didn't need to question it, and I didn't need to fight it, and I didn't need to make up for it. I could just allow myself to be cared for in this way and know that there would be opportunities for me to reciprocate in the future, and there have been. I've been able to reciprocate with many of the people in that group and that forward the love on to different people. Exactly, and like show up for others in the way that I was shown up for, but it was it required both an acceptance of allowing the love from other people, but also accepting that this is where I was at and giving myself a lot more grace and understanding that this is the point that I'm at in this journey. Background of the self-knowledge. Yes. And

Consider the power of propinquity & the mere exposure effect.

Jess Kulik 43:00

it also rings of part of the curriculum we had for the Hello Neighbor, Let's Be Friend program was the notion of this notion of something called propinquity and the mirror exposure effect. And what I'm hearing you say is that the mirror exposure effect did something for you because these women had a familiarity with you, and therefore they were able to recognize when you were showing up differently. And they were able to then, in the terms that Marissa G. Franco would say, kind of be very strategic about giving you affection so that they the mirror exposure effect, you know, had you interacting on a regular basis. You showed up differently in ways that signaled to them that there was a need, and then they changed how they were giving you affection so that you could see that there was friendship there and that you were being cared for. Yes. And it kind of also feels like that phrase of. To be known is to be loved. Because I really don't like to drive. And that's something that many of my friends now know. I talk about it. But my vo my saying that didn't necessarily feel like it was a vulnerable thing for me to say in conversations. But then it ended up being something that many people in my life remembered and thought about during this time. We were all going to the same event. It wasn't that far out of the way for them to come pick me up. But just doing that instead of me walking or having to drive myself meant a lot in that moment. And so these like moments of vulnerability that we have in conversations before we need the help and the love and the support, and before we really feel like we've built that depth of conversation can sometimes be the things that really come back as the building blocks for those relationships. And it's it shows up in those small ways and kind of builds on each other until you get to a point where you're like, oh, I really know this person or they really know me. And I, and then that's what builds that trust. That makes me think of another thing though. If I have been able to, you know, on occasion I witness pitfalls in other people's strategy. And I think sometimes it's about rushing. You know, you you identify a potential friend, and then you maybe do some like flooded discourse, or you want so there's something very specific that is desired, and then there's like a desire to rush through some steps that will get you there. I was joking, right? I have a friend Hannah who who made a new friend had a wonderful coffee date, and then that person texted her and was like, So we're gonna hang out every Monday? Just pencil me in for Mondays. And for her, I mean, that might be great for someone. Two people who are very eager for a particular kind of friendship, if their expectations align, that could be great. Oh my gosh, yes, I'm looking for a friend to hang out with weekly, and Mondays are perfect for me. But for her, that felt like, oh my gosh, we had one fun coffee date. Like that's that feels like going past go. And what you just described, Jess, is something that you said built in small ways over time. Yes. And although expectations were never stated explicitly, because the pace was slow, they were maybe more effectively managed. But something that's hard about making friends is like we don't have a culture of like saying, hi, my name's Lacey, and I'm looking for someone to hang out with every week on Mondays, right? And if I were to be honest, I'd have to say, hi, my name is Lacey. I love making new friends. I'm available once every six months. At best. You know? Mm-hmm. Well, it's nice to live, like one of the things that is nice about a small town in a rural space is that you are guaranteed to see these people. Right. And so the propinquity and mirror exposure effect really come into play. Like I knew I was going to see all of them. Yep. So it's not, it doesn't feel as intense for me to need to define a friendship immediately when I know I'm gonna see you probably five times next week, just because our lives will cross. Like you'll be walking down the street at the same time as me. And that takes some of the pressure off, I think, too, is to just know that there's a routine, like a routineness. And for somebody who's autistic, sameness is great. And so I love showing up everywhere and like knowing I see the same people everywhere I go. We never did define propinquity. Do you know? How would you do it, Kelsey? Um propinquity is just the regular physical proximity that you have to people because you work with them, you live in the same building or in the same neighborhood, you volunteer at the same organization, you find yourself at the same place with these folks for quite a bit of time. Um, time in either an individual um, you know, sitting, like a seven or eight hour workday, um, or many times over the course of the week, like in line at your favorite local coffee shop. Yes. Yes, like proximity geographically enhanced with a frequency level element.

Develop rejection tolerance & be friends with yourself first.

Jess Kulik 48:23

Lucy, you got any trials or tribulations, any personal journeys to share? I think one thing that just, you know, in general is an ongoing struggle, reckoning with some days better than others is like I'm I some days I'm oh I'm really fine with like reaching out and receiving no's and recognize it's not about me. Um usually and some days I'm worse at that. Some days like trying to reach out and trying to make plans and having them not work out is harder, and I think recognizing that and then building your tolerance to you know, rejection in a way is really important. Um and I think like making sure you're also friends with yourself, you know. I think like yesterday I was like, you know, started a lot of different things and didn't quite finish anything. And all afternoon I was like, yeah, I'm maybe gonna go for a run and just didn't do anything about it. And then it was like 7:45, it was raining, and I was like, Well, I didn't quite get done anything else I said I was gonna do today, but I can go for a run right now. And so my dog and I went out and we went down the tack a night, and it was just sloppy and muddy and hilly, and you know, lots of ginormous puddles covering the entire trail, and just like remembering how to have fun and like use your voice and like hoot and holler a little bit, even when it's just you and your really muddy dogs, you're gonna have to clean up and food bed. Um like that was just a really refreshing hour of my life yesterday where I was like, oh, this was really fun. I had a blast by myself, and it felt like that's something that also would be really fun to do with a friend. You know, and remember, I don't know. I don't know what the point of all that is, other than just like it feels good to get a little messy, and sometimes friendship is messy, and sometimes you have to know what you like. And I appreciate that coming from you, especially because I remember probably a couple years ago now, but if you don't mind me saying, there was a period of time where you were pretty explicit that you didn't love spending time alone and you didn't know how to spend time alone. And it's in the Platonic text that I'll keep referring to forever that the best friendships will come from a place of authenticity. And authenticity unequivocally comes from a place of security. So, and that's why we talked about in our curriculum for hello neighbor,

You can only succeed if you define your friendship goals.

Jess Kulik 51:33

let's be friends, the importance of defining your dream, right? You have to really know what you're looking for, but that requires that you know who you are and what sounds fun to you because only having a clear dream will make it possible for you to persist through the finish line. And there is a fair bit of rejection tolerance that is needed along the way, right? And I love that you mentioned, right? Maybe, you know, you have a great coffee date with someone and they say, Yes, let's meet on Mondays forever. And it's like, oh, I'm not available for that. And it has nothing to do with whether or not you were a wonderful coffee date companion. It has everything to do with that other person's schedule and capacity for planning ahead or whatever it may be. Um

Remember: this process takes time.

Jess Kulik 52:17

you live in a small town and you meet a bunch of people because you've just moved there, and then you see all of them hanging out, and you weren't necessarily didn't have access to that at first because you're not quite as far along on the friendship journey with those people as they are with each other. Yeah. Because you just moved here. And that's something that I think many of us, as we've moved to Ely, have experienced is like we have a really great coffee date with somebody, and then we see them hanging out with like five other people, or we find out that they went to an event and we hear about it afterwards, and it feels frustrating because you're like, oh, I I want to be friends with this person. I wish I had been invited to that, but you're not quite at that stage in the friendship yet. And it can be hard then to feel to persist and have that little bit of rejection tolerance and know that it's not about you and that you're just in the stages of building those relationships. But it takes time, it takes time, and then one day you'll get invited, or you'll be the one inviting everybody. There you go. Yes. I'm I'm mindful of the time. I think we should look towards towards wrapping up, but I I would love well to give space to anything you all wanted to put into the conversation before it's wrapping for now. Of course, we can always continue it. Um but my my prompt would be what is a piece of advice you would personally give to a listener about how to make good friends if you're willing to take that prompt. If you want another one, I have more. I love options. So can we can we have options? Well, what do you think gives life in Ely the positive edge? Kind of what's advantageous about living up here. What do you think is particularly difficult about living up here on the edge of the wilderness? I think a combin my combination answer maybe to that is that

Share your interests widely; our communities are full of inquisitive, eager people.

Jess Kulik 54:23

Ely is so full of inquisitive eager people. And so if you really want a friend that does this like niche hobby, even if you don't know someone who does that, people are like, oh yeah, tell me about it. Like I'd learned that, I'd check that out once or twice or something. And so I think sharing what you love and being willing to teach it or you know, give insight as to why that makes you feel alive is really powerful and can deepen a bond, even if that other person doesn't know what you're talking about. Right. They don't have to, right? You don't have to find, yeah, you don't have to find someone who's into underwater basket weaving. You have to find someone who's interested in listening to you talk about underwater basket weaving. Yeah, my high school literature teacher always talked about it derisively, but now that I'm have a relationship with the folk school, I think underwater basket weaving is a very wholesome and noble activity. Not at all like Dexter Cedarquist painted it. Dexter.

You can have anything, but you might have to make it yourself.

Jess Kulik 55:42

I think I would echo Lucy and say that what I what I most like and what I often feel is a challenge is the same thing. Um, and that is opportunity. So I love that this is a space where you can make most things happen. You can find an audience for a story, um, an audience for a passion, you can find a market for a business. You there's so much space in which you can fill with things that you care about or want to try or want to bring forward to share with others, but also opportunity. Also, if you want something, and and I'm thoroughly and daily inspired and motivated by opportunity in the first sense, the former kind of opportunity. Like I love a project. Um, I love that space. But I do find often on Sundays, which are kind of the one day that I have, you know, quite a bit of free time, um, there are things that I wish I could just enjoy and sort of participate in without having to make for myself or or having to collaborate with someone else to make. You know, it's that kind of big city experience of things that you want are always there whenever you want them. Um, and so that's how opportunity cuts in the opposite direction. Um, is that the things that we have here, we only have because someone is choosing and someone you likely know is choosing to do them and sustain them. Um, and we appreciate those folks for doing those things. Um, but if there's a gap in that, it's up to you to fill it yourself or work with someone, you know, to do that. Um, we can't take these these things for granted in the same way. No, we cannot. Yeah.

On the pros and cons of being known (and wearing your grimiest pajamas at the grocery store).

Jess Kulik 57:34

I think for me, the thing that's both positive and negative is that the idea of propinquity and mere exposure means that you're kind of always being perceived. You're always being seen. Like you, you can't, like I go walk into the bank, and before I even got to the counter, they have my account pulled up because they know my name. And that can be very comforting in a lot of ways. And it's gives you a lot of opportunity to make and deepen friendships. Um, I know exactly how many people in this town drink London fogs because I was for a long time the only person that ordered them. And then whenever somebody would go into Northern Grounds and order one, they would tell me, Oh my gosh, somebody else ordered a London fog, right? So that can be like started a revolution. Right. Like now we're out of earl-gray tea everywhere. Like people gotta chill on the London Fogs. But um that's it's nice because there's like this familiarity and there's this comfort in being known in that way and being loved in that way. And it also means that you are in fact kind of always being perceived and watched, and like people will know when you maybe like things that you don't necessarily think people will see about you or know about you. And that can be a challenge. Um, it can also feel weird leaving your house like in your worst pair of sweatpants because you know when you go to the grocery store, it's not gonna be an in-and-out trip and you're gonna see seven people you know. I know. So, like there's there's layers to it with that, but it is kind of freeing in this idea that like you're both always perceived and both and not perceived all the time when you're walking around, when when things are happening, and just embracing the opportunity for those connections and knowing that maybe you messed up one connection with somebody, you had like a a bad conversation, you will get chances to change that. Yeah. And the likelihood that the other person is feeling the same way is small. Yeah. Well, and on that topic, one thing I like to keep in mind um is this will

Mind the liking gap -- you're more well liked than you think!

Jess Kulik 59:30

be our last nod to platonic. Um, but um, one really inspiring uh concept from that is something called the liking gap, um, which has been demonstrated by social science research. And um, it is the phenomenon that we all tend to inaccurately perceive how we are being perceived by other people, um, what they think of us in the moment and then after the fact, how they thought an encounter went or a conversation. Um, and so for me, this is a basis to for everyone to give themselves bonus points in their appraisal of every interaction and conversation they have. Um and because we're all we're all quite bad at in in our assessment. Yes, yes. That makes me think of Jess, you taught me and I don't know if all of us, but the word perseverating. Oh, yeah. We I have been Kelsey, I know for sure you and I have gone up to each other and been like, I'm currently perseverating on this thing, as in your kind of like unable to get out of your head this loop of insecurity about something, right? I'm I'm chronically thinking about this, you know, flubbed up sentence that came out of my mouth or this like etiquette mishap that happened. And it's like, okay, perseverate because you can't not, but also please remember the liking gap. And like, I see you, I've done that before, and like don't worry. Um, so like that's a it's a very real part of the human experience and a very real part of trying to make new friends and and having new relationships and being in small communities, but like how you perceive yourself and how big those things feel to you is just not an accurate reflection of how big they were to the actual moment. I wish that we could keep talking forever because it's my favorite thing to do. It's been an honor, it's been a real honor to be in conversation with you, ladies, as we have been putting this uh Hello Neighbor Let's Be Friends program together. And there's curriculum for more, right? There's more coming down the pike with the work that we've been doing to be informed and strategic about helping our neighbors be their own agents of social connection and social change. So this conversation must come to an end, but it will continue in other ways. So thank you so much for being here, Jess, Kelsey, and Lucy. The Wilderness Edge Podcast is produced by Brett Ross of Boreal Roots Media and brought to you by Boundary Waters Connect. Boundary Waters Connect is the economic and community development project of Northeastern Minnesotans for Wilderness. Learn more by visiting Boundarywaters Connect.org.