Why WDFW Snubs Its Own Advisory Board Members | North of Falcon Exposed

In Episode 3 of the Badger Fishing Podcast, Phillip & Alex sit down with longtime Puget Sound fishing advocate Art Tatchell to break down the truth behind the North of Falcon process, the Puget Sound Recreational Advisory Group, and why many anglers feel ignored during salmon season negotiations.

Art shares decades of firsthand experience inside the WDFW advisory system, discusses how recreational fisheries continue to shrink, and explains the politics, policy pressure, and behind the scenes negotiations shaping Washington salmon seasons.

Topics include:
• North of Falcon process
• WDFW advisory groups
• Recreational salmon season cuts
• Tribal co-management
• Puget Sound fisheries
• Chinook impacts and quotas
• In-season management
• Salmon enhancement net pens
• Hatchery programs
• Washington salmon fishing politics

This is one of the most detailed public conversations yet about how salmon seasons are really shaped in Washington State.

Subscribe for more fisheries investigations, policy breakdowns, public records deep dives, and Pacific Northwest fishing content.

#northoffalcon #wdfw #salmonfishing #pugetsound #chinook #washingtonfishing #badgerfishing #fishingpodcast #salmon #pnwfishing #sportfishing #nof  

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Unculture. Unfiltered. It could very well be unfiltered. Coming to you from the beautiful Pacific Northwest. It's the filter.

SPEAKER_02 0:16

Right here, both in the water.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Thank you, gentlemen, for joining me. I appreciate it. We got a good one on deck. I'm super excited to talk about this topic that's been itching me for a little while. It's been scratching. I've had this itch. I want to get some answers. I want to understand a topic a little bit more. So this year was my first North of Falcon. North of Falcon is the salmon season setting process that sets the fisheries for all the fishing that takes place in Washington. North of Falcon, we've talked about in the past, is a Point Falcon down on the northern side of Oregon, Cape Falcon on the northern side of Oregon, that creates it's a meeting of a lot of minds that get together and try and shape Washington fisheries. And as we've seen, it's been a little bit of a challenge lately. So prior to that getting into the North of Falcon, into the weeds with North of Falcon, I wanted to educate myself so that I wouldn't look like the village ill, the village idiot, the new guy on the block. And I just Googled North the Falcon. And one of the things that came up when Googling North of Falcon was a Puget Sound Sport Fishing Advisory Group. And it basically is a group of individuals that help advise the department on how to best represent the constituents, the people that fish here in Puget Sound, to get ample opportunity and get the word spread from the people to the department in an effective way. And so I read a ton on the Puget Sound Sport Fishing Advisory Board and Advisory Group and part of North the Falcon. And there's some things that didn't align with what I was reading online and what actually took place when I went to North the Falcon. So I promised myself, as soon as I was done with the North the Falcon process, this 2026, 2027 season was put together, I was going to get in the weeds. I was going to really dig in and figure out what it, what, where's the disconnect? What am I not understanding from? What's published online, what I'm physically actually hearing, and what the true goal or the motive behind having North of Falcon and having advisory groups inside of the North of Falcon process to kind of tell, kind of help shape the process. So I decided to call the man. Today we have Art Tatchel on deck to help get me connected and Alex connected with some of these answers. Give you a little bit of background. Here's why I decided to get Art Tatchell here on deck. He has been connected to Puget Sound and Puget Sound fishing, not just on his free time, but pretty much his entire life. He worked there for 48 years. Started as a part-time staff member. And if I'm butchering this art, you can definitely let me know. But started as a part-time staff member and ended up 48 years later retiring as the Marina Supervisor. One of his only jobs he had throughout his working career. He is a member of Puget Sound Anglers PSA, which we've talked about a little bit on some of these other shows. He's been a member for 10 years. One of those years you were actually the Puget Sound Anglers PSA president for the Gig Harbor chapter. Is that correct, Art? That's true. Yes. He's a member of CCA. We had Nello on last week. He's been a member of CCA for 15 years. With the wealth of knowledge and experience he's had in Puget Sound, he's been put on the board of directors of several different organizations. One of them is Fish Northwest, which Alex is also a member of. He's a board member for the Northwest Salmon Research Program. He's also on the WDFW Puget Sound Recreational Fisheries Enhancement Fund group as an advisor, which is responsible for advising the department where almost $2 million worth of annual funds that are derived from a $10 fee that's collected on your fishing license every year. And that money is supposed to go back into recreational fisheries to help enhance them. He was an advisor for quite some time, helping allocate where that $2 million annually worth of funds go. One of the main reasons that Art you're here tonight is because you currently are an advisor to the Puget Sound Advisory Group that advises the department on areas five through 13, on what the constituents, the people that fish in area five through 13, really would like to see. And this goes to the show, Art. Huh? I said, welcome to the show. Welcome to the show. Before we skip, one of the most honorable awards that I am positive you are going to humbly deny is that you are the Michael Jordan, the babe roof of meatlining here in Southern Puget Sound. Is that not right, Art? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

There's a few guys that are more talented than I, but I've been doing it a long time.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

Man, Art, thank you so much for coming on. What did I butcher? Did I get all that right? You're pretty darn close. Very good job. Yeah. Art, thanks so much for connecting with us. Why don't you start by telling us what you do with the Puget Sound Advisory Group? We're gonna probably talk about it at the end, but I'd like to understand what the Puget Sound Advisory Group is and kind of highlight that here in the beginning.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

Josh, where do we start? We start January, right? Typically we communicate, usually it's a group, a couple of guys to start with our local area, some of which you may know, uh Gabe Miller and others. And we talk throughout the year about what we can do from the years past, what we can do to shape fisheries, right? Whether it's our local area or other places. Alex is a perfect example, got to know him the last year or so here, so I learned more about Area 7, so I can help them. I have contacts because I've been around, I guess, too long, and throughout Puget Sound. So we communicate back and forth all year long. This isn't just north of Falcon. Just so you know that now the department knows it as well. And so we're thinking about this year round. It's how are we going to tweak things to maximize time on the water? I'm a recreational fisherman, I love it, obviously, as well as you guys. So that's what we do. We talk all throughout the year, then we get into North and Falcon. And North of Falcon, we've learned the first three quarters of North of Falcon, just relax. They come out with some preliminary numbers, and then they come out with okay, the last intake. How many fish are they gonna take?

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Before we dig into that, explain to me prior to North the Falcon, as things are leading up to North of Falcon. Are you guys getting together on a monthly basis, a quarterly basis, a yearly basis, or are you guys only getting together pretty much during the North of Falcon time?

SPEAKER_02 7:18

Yeah, or so you mentioned January. Talk to us about what happens in January.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

I'm just communicating with mostly local guys and stuff in our area, concerned fishermen. And then we're looking over last year. We'll start actually we do it year-round, to tell you the truth. And we're thinking all the time, okay, if we tweak the tweak this number or we reduce this quota, raise that quota, if we can tweak the numbers and move the quotas around, if that this is brief, right? Yeah, so that we can get more time on the water. And I think that hopefully that's going on in all areas. Yeah, and I get people that call and they bounce stuff off of me, and I bounce stuff off of them, and that's what we're doing year round.

SPEAKER_02 7:59

Um then you're taking that info, and you you guys might have a scheduled call in before North of Falcon, and you'll take that info that you get from talking to folks like myself or other people in the public, and then you'll go into that meeting and present it.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

Then we have an initial meeting, be a few days typically, maybe a week before North of Falcon kickoff is, and they'll toss the projection, projected numbers out to us then on all the salmon, and those are so preliminary. Well, we got numbers, then we'll look at that and then see what we can do there, and that's just more information that we have in our breast pocket because it you really can't do anything with that because you know it's gonna get shaped, it's gonna change, it's gonna tweak. And every what every other week it happens, but we have a meeting with department staff at least two to four days ahead of time where we get that information. Some of it we can share right away, which we try to do with everybody I know, get it out there, and some of it we kind of hold tight until it's confirmed. And that's usually maybe because they have to have a meeting with the tribes to solidify stuff, they don't want to get a hold of the horse, you know, the horse before the cart. So that's kind of how it happens, right on through the North of Falcon process. Then you get your ocean numbers coming in, what their take is, and that's a whole nother discussion for another day. And then Canadian numbers and Alaskan numbers, and last but not least, that you get your tribal numbers.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

The ocean's coming. We're coming to the ocean soon. Don't you worry, Art. We are gonna tackle that topic on a cut on a podcast soon. We're gonna get to the bottom of that one.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

I wish my good friends would help us just a little bit, just a little bit, just a touch. Just a touch. But and then the rest of the year, once the North of the Falcon's over, the seasons are set, right? Then as the season progresses and quota numbers get shaved and shaped and stuff like that, we could be meeting weekly, right? Okay, you got 500 fish left and they're getting 350 fish a day. Do you want to open on a Friday or a Saturday? We can't do a Saturday and Sunday, or do you want to do a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday? So then you got to sit down and figure out okay, how can I get area seven three more days with this number? And that goes for every marine area. You're giving up that pie, trying to stretch it out. Maybe you fish every other day, maybe it's three days a week, maybe it's four days a week, maybe it's one hatchery Chinook. It's quite a little process, and you gotta keep your head kind of wrapped around it through the whole process.

SPEAKER_02 10:39

So, all the time we get through North of Falcon, yes, and we get into the these times when our fisheries are starting to be conducted. Yes. And let's just the way that we are operating now and for the foreseeable future is operating with in-season management, which would mean that we have these impacts and these fishery controls, and uh they're tightly monitored, and we're getting close to hitting one of those fishery controls. They will call uh a meeting, yes, and and what will be the kind of the topics that you guys discuss. Why would they call a meeting with the advisory groups when we're getting close to a fishery control?

SPEAKER_00 11:22

The reason they call to see what help advise them and what to do. Maybe there's a way we can squeeze out another day, or we wait a week or two weeks when there's less Chinook in an area, so we can squeeze out another day or another week for Coho, for example. There's a lot of different avenues you can go, and it depends on the marine area because those fish come through at different times. Marine area seven versus marine area 11 or 13. Those fish are coming through at seven green and happy to bite, and by the time you get to area 11, 13, they get a little bit of lockjaw, they're ready to hit the rivers. But you got to weigh all that in. So, how do I get you on the water more? Maybe I give up a hundred Chinook, but you can get three weeks of coho fishing or something. So, yeah, it just depends on the numbers.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

It sounds like a think tank, a huge sound think tank that will come up with ideas of ways to to optimize time on the water and provide those suggestions to the to the department in an effort to maybe better their in-season management. Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

And go ahead. It's my understanding that there's 12 or 13 guys and gals that are on this advisory group. Yes. And I before I before I started at North of Falcon, I went through and I called each one of them and I reached out to each one of them, introduced myself. This is who I am. Some of them answered, some of them didn't answer. A lot of them were a wealth of knowledge. A lot of them have been doing it for a long time. They were super happy to give me information or be a point of contact if I had questions. And then some of them were new, and some of them were new to the group that didn't have a whole lot of experience. And I asked them, hey, have you been a part of the North the Falcon process? And they said, No, I've never been. And so I was I was confused a little bit. I was like, so you're an advisor, but you've never been to North the Falcon. So my one of my questions is, how did you get on the advisory group? How what's the process of becoming a Puget Sound advisory member or advisor?

SPEAKER_00 13:26

I applied. Okay. So it's an application process that you fill out and send in. And I think they're looking for people that have the ability to reach out to a lot of people to get the word out, right? So that's part of it. And it seemed like this last year there was more emphasis on that than actual extensive knowledge on the process. I think there should have been somewhat of a training session with all the advisors to bring them up the speed.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

My personal opinion, because there's a lot of history there. You need some of that history to understand where we are today.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

Gotcha. So you applied, and then is there an interview? Do they have did they interview you or are they just they did?

SPEAKER_00 14:11

They interviewed, they interviewed me actually, I think, twice. And you went to the department or it was on Zoom? It was on Zoom, yeah. Everything's on Zoom these days.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

And what kind of questions do they ask you?

SPEAKER_00 14:22

Oh, gosh, if I remember right, just basically that about all my basically your connections with whoever fellows like yourself, the outdoor line, just a variety of Fish Hunt Northwest, guys who you know you can get the word out, contact to the clubs I belong to, the organizations I belong to. You list all that and talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Gotcha. Yeah. And there's some guys that have been a part of this for since its inception, if I remember it right. Yeah, they're crazy. Yeah, there's crazy. There's no term limits. You can there's some guys that have been there for a super long time.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

There is no term limits in some come and go, some just leave, and now and then I think some get uninvited, possibly. Why? Yeah, I don't know. Sometimes maybe there's a conflict of opinions or something, possibly. Sometimes that happens. They don't have to put you on that committee.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

Well, are you saying that the department might want to not have someone on an advisory group if they felt like they might conflict with interests?

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Yeah, it yeah, I think they possibly that maybe they rocked the boat a little bit too much. Uh, I'm not exactly sure. I've never had anybody point blank tell me that from department staff, but I remember when I got booted off the Puget Sound Wreck Enhancement Fund Oversight Committee, and it's when they the tribes first started doing their test fisheries out Puget Sound and the state. And they were using gear that was conducive to catching shakers routinely, and that was running shakers and sub legals, right? Chinook. And at that time we were being basically run off the water because too many sub-legals. I brought that up, I think on the outdoor line, and it wasn't too long after that. I got uninvited. Coincidence, I'm sure. But you know what? They started changing up their gear in fishing like all of us fish, so we got better data out of it. So you were a sacrificial lamb. I was. I appreciate you doing that. I think so.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

I I'm not 100% sure. Yeah, you did something that was uncomfortable, and there was a result from it that that was a beneficial result, but you were also a you were cast away for it.

SPEAKER_03 16:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

But they did retain you. They did re they did retain you on the Puget Sound Sport Fishing Advisory Group.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

So I wasn't on the group at that time, so then I applied to be on the group.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

And and then they, of course, there's been a little change, and there's been a lot of change in leadership as for the last what 10 years. It's they've been rotating staff like unbelievable, and I think there's a wealth of knowledge that's disappeared too.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

Yeah. History of knowledge. So the department picks and chooses who's gonna be on the Puget Sound advisory group. All the whole entire panel is picked by the department. Yes, it has nothing to do with the people that this board represents or that the department represents. The people don't get to pick, the department gets to pick who's gonna be on the advisory group. Yes. You think that changing that to maybe be voted on or was chosen from the constituents might be a benefit, or do you think that might hurt the advisory group?

SPEAKER_00 17:52

I think under the current leadership, I'm pretty comfortable with their decision making. They seem pretty open and reach out and seek device, and they flat told me they they want to fix stuff and get along and work with us. So it seems like they they've understood there were problems in the past.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Gotcha. Right on. One of the things that I have heard about is communication. Obviously, everybody can do better on communication, but you've been a part of the North of Falcon process for a while. You've probably heard about Puget Sound rec advisory group communication being a problem in the past, but it sounds like it's gotten a little bit better. Is that true?

SPEAKER_00 18:33

Yes, it's gotten a lot better. Leadership seems to be pretty open. You can call or email pretty much any time and with questions and seek answers to so that's been pretty beneficial. The biggest drawback is getting information during in-season management and or also during the North of Falcon process so late that it's really hard to spend an extra hour or two to mine through all the data to help make proper decisions. It's just sped up a little too fast.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

So we did the four you did the forecast meeting, and the Puget Sound Advisory Group met about one week prior to that first advisory to the first forecast meeting, correct? You guys met about Yeah, roughly about that, yeah. Okay. Then we went to NOF 1, which took place in Olympia. And that had, yeah. What day did you guys meet with the department the department prior to that? Was it a week? About two days earlier. Okay, so it was about two days earlier. Okay. And then when you went to NOF two, where we should have numbers, how far ahead of that date did you guys meet with the department? About the same, about two, three days. About two or three days, okay. And so you think that you would like to see more time in between the time that you guys were actually going to have the meeting and when you guys get all the information so that you can go out there and mine and talk and get the word out to everybody else to try and get some feedback. Is that basically what you're saying?

SPEAKER_00 20:03

Exact, exactly, exactly. And it at this point, it's almost time to push that North of Falcon process further, a month further ahead. Because you're not getting it, you probably saw it up to North of Falcon 2. The data didn't change much. We had all these meetings or public meetings, which is great, but we didn't get any updated data, so we're all like, okay, what do you want us to do? And that's pretty much what happened this year. So I don't know, maybe somehow we move that a month ahead so we can get that data to really digest it and make better decisions going when you say a month ahead.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

Are you saying start this in January?

SPEAKER_00 20:49

No, the other way. They won't have the data that early, right? We finish what first week, second week of April, and maybe we stretch it out in early May.

SPEAKER_02 21:00

Is in that second week of April. So are you saying delay it or yes? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

If they can, because they gotta have it done, get the low fall signed off and everything, and get it verified by what, July 1st or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

Yeah, we got so when we look at the when we look at the calendar, there's the NOF website on or the WDFW's website on their NOF section, you can see the breakdown. They have a list of how all the dates work. And this is not ratified until end of June. And so here we are in May, and we're and we still haven't seen a loaf.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

So maybe there's adjustments that happen.

SPEAKER_02 21:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

It's still being negotiated. Define language.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

The languages, but as far as quotas and fishery control numbers, those have been set, but we're we're still figuring out. Some language issues. And I would imagine that's mostly policy. But to your point, is that we probably could see this process be delayed two weeks. Sure would help, right? Yeah. Two weeks is all it would take, maybe, to make sure that we don't have this situation where we're in NOF2 without numbers.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

I would really like to see that all parties are involved in the process. And what I mean by that is the commercial industry, the Rec industry, and the tribal, which is pretty much commercial industry all at the table at the same time. There's a lot going on that we don't know about. And it just feels weird to me. I would like it to be more transparent and open to everyone. Just a gut feeling I have. And I think that would be awesome if we could do that.

SPEAKER_01 22:55

So one of the concerns that came up at the forecast meeting was some high-level policy issues. One of the one of Patillo brought up, and I brought up the Stillaguamish Payback Provision and the accounting for the Stillaguamish Payback Provision. And we were told, hey, we don't have the data yet. We asked the same question at NOF1, what's going on, Stillaguam? We haven't talked to the tribes yet. We don't have the data yet. Then you ask at NOF2, hey, we don't have the data yet. We haven't talked to the tribes yet. Then you're at PFMC and they're like this. So when you ask those big policy questions in this Puget Sound Advisory Group where you're representing the 800,000 people that have fishing licenses, and you ask heavy questions like that, do you get the same responses from the department that we get at the public setting, or do they give you more answers?

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Typically pretty much the same. It's difficult to get some of those answers. And I don't know. That's just it. That's what I'm saying. You don't really know. I can guess all day long. And I can probably come pretty close, but I hate to do that without 100% knowing what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

If you are super connected and Tom Nelson's super connected, and some of these charter boat cabins that are on the Puget Sound Advisory Group that are super connected, if you could get a transparent answer, you could almost control the message as the it as it gets delivered out, so it's not a negative thing, wouldn't you think?

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Yes. Yes. The department would make them they would no longer have a black eye that they get every year if they if they can figure out a way to do that. And we offer advice, right? And because it seems like at times some of the stuff that goes on, it it just you're just going, dude, let us help you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

Yeah. So a little maybe backstory here is art's kind of talked about how there's been a change of leadership, and it's the policy of determining this group kind of was in flux a little bit. So I was fortunate enough a handful of years ago during this time of in-between when they my understanding is these positions are two-year limits, and then they've now recently increased to three-year limits. And so they had a time where the two-year limits had expired, but they hadn't started conducting interviews to reconfigure the advisory group. And I was fortunate enough to be an ad hoc member of that group.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

You could get you could reapply, and you could, it's not three years and then you're over. You could continue to do it, right?

SPEAKER_02 25:33

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and that's how some folks have been on the advisory group for over. Two decades. And I'll say that most people who are on the advisory group who have that long of a tenure, they probably should be there. Yeah. And because when you lose a person like that, you lose a sense of I don't maybe this term was not a great application, but you lose some tribal knowledge, you lose you lose something that that's almost irreplaceable.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:01

So most of the folks who have that kind of a tenure on the group, in my understanding, should be there. But during my time of being an an ad hoc member or just someone of the public that they've allowed because of being involved, to your last point are sometimes maybe they just don't listen. And sometimes I saw suggestions brought up that would benefit the department's PR relations, the public relations of the department. Uh I saw instances where folks like your uh like Gabe Miller that you mentioned earlier, or even Tom Nelson had brought up scenarios of ways to increase a bag limit or go to seven days a week in some of those South Sound areas, or or go from one to two when we know it's more of a mop-up fishery at that point, and we have the impacts to play. And we would, or these folks that I would be on a call with, they would present it in a manner of this could be a really good feather in the hat for the department. This could be something that they could go out there and say, hey, we're gonna go ahead and increase the bag limit from one to two, and it would be a good PR move, it would be a move that where they wouldn't get kicked in the nuts like they always get, you know, and then and sometimes it just felt like they were coy about doing that.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

Yeah, why is that? Why do you think you bring stuff up and you don't get a response or they don't follow through with that? What would what is happening in the background like that?

SPEAKER_00 27:41

Yeah, I've I've run across that before. We're giving them advice, knowing the history of the fishery, like in Marine Area 11, where I spent a ton of time, right? My fished everywhere, but marine area 11 fished a lot in that fishery. You know when those runs come through, you know where and what whole nine yards. And Alex was saying we got get towards August the last couple years, and we know we're gonna run out of, say, sub-legal quota, let's bump up the marked quota so we can a couple more fish or a couple fish a day versus one or whatever that is, open it up seven days a week, so we burn up our quota. And usually there's a week to a week and a half, two weeks delay. Those runs peak at certain times, and they know that. I think there's how do they put this all the time? There's policy issues around that. So you gotta remember there's there's other components to this, and that would be not components, whatever you want to call it, but the tribes. So everything they do or think about doing, they've got to run through the tribes, period. And I think that though their decisions weigh heavily on the department, and they may say we're not comfortable with it. So then when you leave Chinook out on the table, for example, the they're not comfortable with it, is the tribes might not be comfortable with it.

SPEAKER_01 28:59

Bingo, I'm sorry, yes, yeah, okay, yes, for whatever reason. Um so you've seen some of my content. Some of my content, I talk about that. I talk about the co-managers, they're an integral part of making sure that conservation, making sure that part of it, like the whole thing is a big deal. And I'm not, I don't want to bash any of that by any means. But sometimes from an outsider looking in, if this is my first year, it looks like you hear the department lead say, we don't tell the tribes how to fish, and the tribes don't tell us how to fish, but then all their actions that take place inside of North of Falcon are the exact opposite of that. They got to ask permission or they talk about comfort or they just ignore it altogether. So, do you really think that the tribes don't tell us how to fish, or it's some peer pressure from the tribes to come to an agreement to allow fisheries to take place?

SPEAKER_00 29:52

I hate to paint the tribes as a collective. Even within the tribal communities, they are they have issues with other tribes. And here's some of the local tribes I do a lot of stuff with. And they're great biologists and great people. They also are very involved in the policy and they stick to their guns. And there is supposedly a co-management, but sometimes it feels it's a little more one-sided than that. And hopefully I'm wrong. But I think we had a department personnel. In fact, I think he's back with the department. I won't say his name, that's basically said it's not simple as simple as that.

SPEAKER_02 30:30

It's there's policy, and let's say that's okay. I'll say his name. His name's Mark Botzel, and he's very famously known for saying that sometimes some of these things are put in place as a policy measure, not necessarily based on biological or environmental data, but simply to make our co-managers comfortable. Yeah, and I'm a science and biology. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 30:56

I'm a science and biology more of a geared guy. The number's the number. It can there's some massaging going on here and there, is I guess the best way to put it.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

So you've been involved, you've been involved with this for a long time. You've seen the change of fisheries, you've seen the change of technology, you've seen the change of boats. What was it like 10 years ago? And then what was it like one year? What was it like 20 years ago?

SPEAKER_00 31:22

20 years ago. What's this? 2025, 2000s, as far as negotiations, fishing, and what just all of it. Like fishing was wide open.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

What do you remember North of Falcon? Were you involved in North of Falcon? Did it just happen and everybody was super happy because everybody came to a clean deal?

SPEAKER_00 31:38

What was it like? It was new in a way. What really initiated my getting involved was all of a sudden, out of the blue out of North of Falcon, they cut the seasons in Marine Area 11. They gutted our winter season or a large portion of it over mid-hood canal Chinook. Because the canal is like a god, and I'm gonna call it an area. That isn't what the term they use, but all of Hood Canal is like a Chinook system, if that makes any sense. So you got the Scokomish that is truly a Chinook River, right? Yeah, but you also have the smaller rivers like Duck Apush, Dosa Walps, and I can't remember maybe those two that are not really Chinook rivers. They're small, they run fast, they go uphill real quick. And what had happened was they took some of the Scokomish River, some conservation groups in Hood Canal and took those over, some eggs and small and put them into the smaller rivers, and a few fish came back. Noah came in and designated the whole thing as wild. Those rivers couldn't sustain wild runs. They told me could no longer put eggs or fish in them, so they they died. But for a number of years, they cut off fisheries all over Puget Sound, and we kept saying, hey, this is just doesn't make any sense. Why are you doing this? And anyway, long story short, that went on for a number of years, severely restricted fisheries. And finally, right now, I don't think it's been de-designated, but it's been sidebared, it feels, with bigger issues. And then it was Lake Washington, and then and then it so it's just progressed to a system year after year, it seems like a different situation.

SPEAKER_02 33:23

Where you just had enough, or you just did enough.

SPEAKER_00 33:27

So I went running down the department to a first my first meeting, and let's just say I I was the voice in the room at the time, to where the director came over and kneeled down beside me and said, Let's go out in the hallway and have a discussion after the meeting. That's where it all started. What year roughly was that? Oh gosh. It had to have been late 90s, maybe right around 2000. I'd have to really think about it. I've probably been at this a lot longer than I actually portrayed.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

In that time since when you went to one of your first meetings to now, has any fisheries that you can remember been increased drastically or even increased at all?

SPEAKER_00 34:15

Hatcher production in the last probably what five to six years, mainly because of a southern resident killer whales.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

Did that equate to recreational fisheries increasing in your mind though? Have you seen one year where recreational fisheries increased?

SPEAKER_00 34:31

Let me think here. Throughout I'm trying to think, I don't think so. It's been a pretty much a steady decline. There's been a couple massages where I was able to, oh gosh, how do I put this? Put some numbers out there that didn't make any sense that the modelers took a look at and went, you might have a point here where they bumped up some quota numbers, which which have helped us out. Um yeah, so that's as far as I want to go there.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

Have you when you when we get into North of Falcon, are all the advisors usually in the room or on the call for the North of Falcon? And do they ask questions or do they make statements, or is it half of you or a portion of you? What type of interaction do you see from some of these Puget's Found advisory group members?

SPEAKER_00 35:21

I would say from what I've seen, maybe maybe half on a good day.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

It's half of them. It it don't, I don't know if they're on the calls, but aren't making any comments.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 35:33

Or maybe they email. You have all kinds of options to Gmail and stuff, but usually it's a handful of guys that get up and talk, and we all know who those are on which is good, art, which is good.

SPEAKER_02 35:44

And because those folks have been involved and they have a very intimate understanding of not just the North to Falcon process, but everything that goes on behind the doors, all the all the policy negotiations and all of this impact will affect here, or this stock composition is going to affect this area. They have that knowledge. So, maybe my question for you is that why has the department not filled the advisory group with folks who are all constant participants in the North of Falcon process?

SPEAKER_00 36:18

That's a good question. Have they all applied? Or maybe there's a difference of characters from those that have applied? I don't think that's a good excuse. I think passion is huge and knowledge is huge. There's a really a lot of good, passionate, knowledgeable guys out there that will that are or volunteer. I tip my cap to those guys that'll just get involved. There's just not enough that do it. And I wish everybody did. We'd be in a different place today if every license holder got involved, either with cash or participation. We wouldn't be having this conversation, I feel today. And I I look up to a lot of what I would call mentors that that when I came on board, that Frank Jurabex, Pat Patello, there's countless other guys that have aged out, gone passed on to the big pond in the sky. And uh, I learned a lot from those guys. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

So you got there's not a whole lot of movement in the forecast meeting for the Puget Sound Advisory Group to kind of recommend anything on. There really isn't a whole lot of numbers at NOF1 that you guys can really advise on or give a whole lot of feedback. NOF2 is usually a spot where there's some conversations that take place, but this year we went into NOF2 and we didn't have any numbers. Uh most through that whole thing.

SPEAKER_00 37:43

Yeah, uh they were waiting. They were waiting for supposedly for Alaska and Canada to get their numbers in and still negotiating with the tribes, which just started. And most of our the people that I worked with, we we had already made agreements or had discussions and come up with ideas well in advance of North Falcon even starting.

SPEAKER_01 38:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

So then it's just a process of seeing what we're left with that we can shape those things with. Because we, if you've been around it long enough, you know where trouble spots are and trouble runs are, etc. So you can kind of shape things and look at numbers in your area or other marine areas and have a good idea and propose things ahead of time, either in person, on the phone, email, or whatever. So I'm sitting there and I probably mentioned, I think to you, it's just hang tight, hold on. We haven't got the real numbers yet. And everybody gets super excited, and I get that, but really, until we get all the numbers in, it doesn't really help. I know Pat, myself, and others on a little sidebar here have been advocating for the department to get the advisory group together more often off season, so that we can do exactly this as a group and come in better prepared to north the Falcon. And we've been bringing this up for a number of years and it just hasn't taken off. And I think we just have to do it personally, maybe without the department staff, maybe they're too busy. I don't know. And then we can have those discussions amongst the group. That's a thought. I would like to see that.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

So one of the one of the things that that kind of blew my mind a little bit, because I heard that every by every year the seasons have gone down. When they do start with those numbers and they start getting the impacts from Canada, from Alaska, they put the forecast in, they always seem to start on last year's fisheries. And to me, when you stake last year's fisheries and you plug everything, the only direction you can go is down. And so I don't understand why we don't start higher. Like, why don't we take last year's fisheries and add 10, 15, 20 to the number so that so we can get an increase?

SPEAKER_00 40:02

What's your thoughts on that? Initially, we present far more generous seasons. We do as a as an advisory group, without a doubt. We come in with all kinds of options for more time on the water, and but it the department just whittles it down fast.

SPEAKER_02 40:21

I've seen those reports are and I'll say you've seen it, yeah. The group does make proposals. Yeah, they throw it out there and say, hey, let's start off with this and let's let's get this quota back up to where it was a handful of years ago. Let's re-implement winter fisheries, rain area seven, rain area, um, eight two, those places. But as you just said, it just gets it just goes away.

SPEAKER_01 40:48

At NOF1, I saw a it was like a five-page document that the Pugetic Advisory Group had put together that was a proposal for this year's fisheries. That wasn't just a cut and paste thing. Somebody put a lot of time, a lot of effort, a lot of input for all these five through 13 areas to make this proposal. And then do you did anything from that, did anything come from that this year? Were any of those things considered, do you think? Or what do you think happened to that proposal that you guys put together?

SPEAKER_00 41:16

Nothing stuck. Nothing stuck. We, in fact, we obviously we got drastically cut once again. And here's the beauty of it the recreational community's impact is just minuscule compared to all other impacts. It's just minuscule, but they seem to carry the shoulder or the world on their shoulders as far as trying to save these runs. These runs have not improved one bit in 40 years of restrictions that I've seen, and it's not working. There's something else wrong. You could open it up, in my opinion, probably seven days a week, every marine area, and you're still gonna have issues on these rivers. It's not gonna make a change, and it hasn't, but we're still doing the same thing. There you go. I got my two cents worth in. I I love it, I love it. It's just it's frustrating. It it's and you can see it, Alex. You can see it. I mean, yeah, you know, what are we doing?

SPEAKER_02 42:14

Yep, it sure does feel like this lemon is pretty squeezed, and yeah, yeah. And I don't know the direction from here. I don't know. I certainly am not gonna stand on a pedestal and say that any other particular group needs to do more or necessarily, or that they're not, but I want us to look at things through a very equal lens and make sure that approach is what's being taken. So maybe a side note there. So I appreciate you kind of making that stance, and that we overall in the last, I believe, 20 years, recreational fishing opportunity in the state of Washington for Priget Sound has been reduced by close to 90%.

SPEAKER_00 42:57

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

And and and by doing that, we continue to see the slides in North of Falcon about 10-year average, this compared to that 10-year average, or that compared to this 10-year average, and it's not necessarily getting better. So I think it's been pretty clear and apparent that reductions to recreational fisheries is not the answer. Um but before I think tonight we really want to hear about some of these other things that you're involved in. I you got so many irons in the fire, and you've been doing this for so long, but maybe just a couple more points on this Puget Sound recreational sport fishing advisory group. Would you say that all marine areas are represented in this advisory group? Would you say that there is a voice for every one of those five through thirteen marine areas within the advisory group?

SPEAKER_00 43:47

I don't think not totally. 11 and 13, and maybe 10 for the most part. Gabe and myself, I don't think right off the top of my head, there's anybody else from that area. A lot up there in the nine, and then some up there in five. Mason.

SPEAKER_02 44:13

Brandon, Brandon, Brandon, Mason.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:15

And then there's Dave Kronquist, who we would associate to Marine Area 6. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:20

What is it with Marine Area 6? They have absolutely no impacts on any any Chinook salmon, but they catch Chinook salmon. That is something we have not talked about.

SPEAKER_02 44:30

How there are all these impacts in Marine Area 5. There's all these impacts in Marine Area 7. All these impacts in Marine Area 9. And all three of the five, seven, and nine, what do they border? They border marine area six. Subject for another day. Somehow. Yes. Yes. Something's not right. Anyway. We know what's not right. And it's because 15 years ago, when they were collecting CWTs, they just so happened to not get a CWT for one of these stocks of concern during the time they tested, or they test fished, or they collected in Marine Area 6. And then we're working off of that FRAM base period. And that's how the math falls. That area 6 somehow. Here's another thing. This is not where I saw the conversation going, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 45:24

I didn't I know there's another thing you can look at at that time period when that data was collected. I think if you look back on it, they did not collect the data equally in all the marine areas. There was heavier emphasis on some areas over others. So the data wasn't collected the same. One could almost question the data. I think that's what you're kind of getting to anyway. So there you go. Where were we going?

SPEAKER_02 45:49

We're going about marine area representation in the Puget Sound Advisory Group. So I it feels, and again, I spent a year or two kind of just being able to be in the room and make participation or provide some participation and some feedback. And I it's no secret. I was providing participation and feedback because of my Marine Area 7 proxy, because of my devotion to marine area 7 and the fact that I'm up here and that's where I fish. And also because no one else was that voice for this for the largest marine area in the state of Washington or Puget Sound, at least.

SPEAKER_00 46:29

If you're not at the table, Alex, you're not eating dinner.

SPEAKER_02 46:34

Well, I've made a space for myself.

SPEAKER_00 46:37

It should be a priority for at least one representative for marine area.

SPEAKER_02 46:43

Yeah. I believe and it would maybe I'm asking questions I know the answers to, but yeah, I would say it's a priority to be on the sport fishing advisory group, to not just be from a marine area in specific, but to have participated in the North and Falcon process in some way, shape, or fashion to be on that advisory group. Is it fair that you have that?

SPEAKER_00 47:11

Yeah, I think somebody that's on that advisory group, whether you're from 7, 6, 5, 11, whatever you're from, you should be rounded. In other words, I like to view as my from my point of view is for all fisheries, all recreational fisheries in the state of Washington. It is there's many things that if I get calls from guys that work on, like the Scokomish River or something like that. Can you help me out with this? Sure, why not? So I jump in and see what I can do. I'm open. I don't care if it's the ocean, Puget Sound, whatever it may be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:42

That is something about art that's always been really commendable. That you really your web is casted pretty wide. So we really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 47:51

You bet the department did make some comments towards the second, I think at NOF 1, maybe even at NOF2, that they're they were looking heavily into the Puget Sound Advisory Group. And I hope that if you just go to the Department of Fish and Wildlife's website and you look at the handbooks and the information that's on the website, the last time they made a post, the department did on the group is from 2022. So I really hope that they research all that, they look at what they've put on there, and then they make that advisory group have some weight. There's bullet points in one of those pamphlets that really talks about all the things that the department will do. And I think a lot of what we just discussed are points that they said that they would do. And I just hope as as this next year comes around, but if this is going to be the season of change, I think it really starts with this advisory group because people like you put a lot of time and a lot of effort in making sure you're an active participant inside of the advisory group to give them viable stuff, not just to be a seat in the chair to check off a box because the government requires you to have this advisory group. I hope that there's some weight because there's a lot of us, there's 800,000 of us, and we need a voice, and you guys are our voice when talking to the department on how these seasons should be shaped.

SPEAKER_00 49:04

Yeah, no, it's take advantage of that knowledge, listen to that wisdom. And I think that's that can be frustrating because here you can lay something out that would help them out, make them look good, and they don't use it, and there's no cost to it. And it's you're sitting there scratching your head like, okay, explain this to me. But it is what it is.

SPEAKER_02 49:26

And I and again, I think we're gonna move on to some other stuff that you're working at. But I would I I will go on record to say to that any member of that advisory group who is missing meetings, who is not in North of Falcon, or who's not openly talking to their constituencies, get off. Make room for folks who are active participants in this process, who have a vetted desire to be a voice heard and to make a difference for the folks that that they fish amongst in their respected areas. So I appreciate I appreciate the level of commitment that you bring to that group, Art. So thank you. Amen to that.

SPEAKER_00 50:05

Yep, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

Art, you we might not be able to make a big difference at North of Falcon, but there are some areas that we really can make a difference. And I didn't find out how much you really do outside of North of Falcon for Recreational Anglers from you. I had to find out from other people, and you're heavily involved in PSA. So tell me what PSA is and tell me about these net pens that I keep hearing about. I want to know everything about them because I want people on this call to not be frustrated by what the department isn't doing and what you can't do, but what you can do and what you could do immediately to increase fishing opportunities for all of us right now.

SPEAKER_00 50:48

First of all, those are saltwater salmon salmon science and education enclosures. Oh, they're not in that big thing. Give that hold, give that. I gotta hear that one. I gotta hear that.

SPEAKER_02 51:00

I want to write that down.

SPEAKER_01 51:02

You got that on, tape. Yeah, let's hear it. Do it again.

SPEAKER_00 51:06

I forgot already. There are saltwater salmon science and education enclosures.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

I like that. I like that. Temporary, and so PSA is Pugetown Anglers, is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 51:19

Pugetown Anglers is a state organization with individual clubs. And I I at last counted, there's 12 or 13 clubs. So each club is their own club group, right? And each one does things differently. And for example, I guess we'll dive into our club. We do try to do our best to get your club. Our club is Gig Harbor Tacoma Club, so it's based in, we have our meetings in Tacoma, but we draw people from all over the area. They some of these people will drive 45 minutes to an hour to our club meetings, which is phenomenal. It was standing room only to the one that I had a week and a half ago.

SPEAKER_01 52:03

I was impressed.

SPEAKER_00 52:05

Yeah, we draw a pretty good group, and you know, we've worked hard at trying to bring in new members and keep them engaged and stuff like that. I think it's very valuable to do that, get more people engaged. But anyway, we do a nutrient enhancement program where we go to the Voice Creek Hatchery, which is on the Piauop River. Voice Creek enters the Piaupp River, and then we get surplus carcasses, which we got a permit for. We get 4,000, up to 4,000 carcasses that we take up in the upper watershed uh of the Piaupp River and disperse in the streams and creeks in there, which they decompose and feed bears and birds and eagles and muskrats and weasels and minks and also insects and food for salmon, steelhead, trout in the system. The tribe, Pyalp tribe, did a study above where we put carcasses in and down below, and they found a 50% increase in insect life, water, aquatic insect, which feeds fish. Survival rates increase. So that's why we do that. And Gary Loomis, very popular guy, he came to a meeting years ago and we bought off, and we've been doing it ever since, probably eight years ago.

SPEAKER_02 53:27

That's the second episode. We've heard the name Gary Loomis. Yeah, just very grateful for his contributions.

SPEAKER_00 53:34

Oh gosh, yeah, just an awesome guy. It continues today. So that's where that happened. We get a collection of guys that come in and they supplied the their vehicles, their fuel, their time and effort. And the volunteers within the state of Puget Sound that help out. It's just thousands of hours per year that we contribute throughout all the clubs. Anyway, so we do that program. It usually lasts uh September into middle of October, one day a week. We make a run up there and toss these carcasses, laugh a lot, eat some donuts, have some coffee. Where do you get these carcasses from? Boys Creek Hatchery.

SPEAKER_01 54:15

Gotcha. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 54:16

Which we got to get a permit to do. And that's also there's private landowners or forestry companies. We got to get permits from them to be able to do it as well. So it's quite a process. It takes months to line up just to, and then you got to get the volunteers, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and get this done. And then I got to get back and go hunting.

SPEAKER_01 54:35

So you guys put 4,000 fish all up and down the river, all by hand, all up.

SPEAKER_00 54:41

I think we did 21,000 pounds last year.

SPEAKER_01 54:44

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 54:46

Not in main stem. These goes into the crew feeder creams, too.

SPEAKER_02 54:50

The gravel. This goes to where the beds are going to be, where the eggs are going to be laid, where yes can be most valuable. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 54:57

Yes, it's nutrients throughout the system.

SPEAKER_01 55:01

That's a PSA program, Puget Sound English program, correct?

SPEAKER_00 55:04

It did. It started out with Pierce County CCA, but Pierce County Club, long story folded. We don't want to get into the politics of that, but I'm still friends with the president today, Nello. We talk regularly. Uh so that's that program. I think pretty much covered that.

SPEAKER_02 55:23

So that's what your chapter is doing. That's what what you guys are doing down south.

SPEAKER_03 55:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 55:28

Speak to us a little bit more in some general terms about some of these saltwater salmon science and educational. Uh, what's the last word? I missed the word enclosures. Enclosures that we have up and down Puget Sound. How many of those do we have? Pew Sound Anglers? No, how many of those saltwater salmon science and equ educational?

SPEAKER_01 55:51

Enclosures. They're called enclosures.

SPEAKER_00 55:52

That's what I call ours. Because Net Pen has that that negative, right? Because they're talking about non-indigenous salmon being reared and diseased and all this. We're not doing that. We're taking fish from the Pyrop River closest to where we're our pen is, and those fish have come right back to the Pyrop River when they come back. They show up in there in great numbers. All these fish are tagged, coat of wire tagged, specific to that net pen. And every single one's clipped. We want you to catch them so we know where they're going. And here's where they're going. They have been recovered from southeast Alaska to Westport and all throughout Puget Sound. We're all catching these fish. Fantastic. Wow. A lot of them get back to the hatchery, Clarks Creek Hatchery and Boys Creek Hatchery, specifically the Clark's Creek. They like that hatchery.

SPEAKER_01 56:45

And the numbers are they take these eggs at the hatchery, they hatch eggs, they turn them into fry, they turn it into little small salmon.

SPEAKER_00 56:54

When they're ready to smolt, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:55

When they get to the small salmon, they run them either through a manual clipping trailer or an automatic clipping trailer. Yep, they clip the fins. So they're a marked fish so that when you catch the Chinook salmon in areas five through 13, you can keep them when it's open. When it's open. And then put a CWT, a coded wire tag in the head that has a number that's specific to this enclosure. Enclosure. And when they get how big are these fish when you guys get them, when they bring them down to the enclosures?

SPEAKER_00 57:25

We get them, they're roughly about a hundred per pound. Okay. So what two inches long, roughly? And then when we release them, they're usually right around 20 to a pound. And we feed them three times a day. We throw so much food at these things. When they're released, they're as wide as they are long. And they're really super healthy. And the tribal biologist just can't believe it. He loves the program. There's survival where's this enclosure at? Where's the one that that you guys at the Point defiance marina complex tied up to one of their floats down there?

SPEAKER_01 58:00

Your old employer for 48 years. Yeah, coincidence. Yes. How big is this enclosure?

SPEAKER_00 58:08

It's roughly what 60 feet long by 15 feet wide, and the next at the bottom 12 feet deep. So it's 12 feet deep.

SPEAKER_01 58:17

So you put these, how many of these salmon fry go into this enclosure?

SPEAKER_00 58:22

This is really weird. 50,000 plus. It could be the goal is 50,000. Sometimes it's 53, sometimes it's 51. Sometimes at least last time it might have been like 58,000. We got from the Pualp tribe, Clark's Creek. Now their fish are spring fed, right? Where their pens are or their raceways. They're spring fed. That water temperature is warmer during this time of year. They grow faster. Void's Creek are glacier-fed water. So it's colder. So what has happened is we get these, it's morphed into we get this Clark Creek fish, we feed them up, we release them, and in a few days later, we get everything scrubbed up, ready to go. We get another 50,000 from Void's Creek hatchery. So it's another what month and a half, two months of feeding those and caring for those, keeping otters out of there and blue herons out of there and seals out of there and all kinds of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 59:22

What are you guys feeding these things?

SPEAKER_00 59:24

Bio Oregon provides the food, they pay for how they sell it to us for half price.

SPEAKER_02 59:29

And this is in partnership with Northwest Salmon Research.

SPEAKER_00 59:34

Northwest Salmon Research kind of is an organization that overseeing is not the really the word. They pull all the partners together. Does that make sense? Okay, yeah. There's a lot of partners. We got Tacoma Public Schools, Metro Parks, Fish and Wildlife, Piaw Tribe, Chief Flesh High Schools. I'm leaving somebody out. I'm sure Pierce County, it's some of the local colleges, UPS, uh PLU, they're all involved in this. They all come down and do sampling, toxic level samples out of tissues, like just all kinds of stuff going on with this program. You wouldn't believe it. It's a handful, it really is.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:16

That's amazing. So does PSA own this enclosure? Did you guys buy the enclosure, or is it a state-owned enclosure?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:22

Northwest Sam and Reese of Gary Loomis came up with the pontoons. Gotcha. And then we got money from Department of Fish and Wildlife Pew Sound Wreck Enhancement Group, which I used to be on, and that kind of initiated get some funding to help with this. And we purchased nets, uh, fish food, a little bit of everything, dirt cheap. There's no way that the state can do what we do for what cost-wise.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:49

That's my understanding, Art, that Fish Northwest, Fishnorthwest.org, that we also uh provided some monetary donations and even some volunteers to help with some of the work on this project.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:02

Oh, absolutely. Fish Northwest, they're a great group. I'm a member myself, but but they are. They're all sports fishermen and they're avid and they're into it, and they're just a great group of guys. Their support's been great across the board.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:16

What I would say is that this kind of a program shows how collectiveness can be achieved. Oh, absolutely. And how when we look at something like this, that truly is an opportunity to enhance our fisheries and enhance the bountifulness of this resource, we come together and we can work together. And if we can set some of these indifferences aside, and we can do something that's for the greater good. Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:47

These fish feed orca, they obviously feed otters, blue herons, they feed tribal members, they feed recreational community, commercial troll fisheries, everybody benefits, everybody benefits.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:00

And it's not just Chinook, right? Some of there are some CoHO programs.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:03

We have we have another program we started, what this last year up in Du Boines Marina, Coho program, which Trout Unlimited bailed out of it because it didn't meet their policy guidelines anymore. Um is Trout Unlimited a member of WFC? If not, they probably could be or should be or something. Yes, they're not into hatchery production. Got it. And so, anyway, which was a bummer for that community because Des Moines Marina, that's their staff, their leadership, they're all on board. The local community is all on board. So we got a call. Said, hey, these guys jumped out of this program from Soes Creek Hatchery. We got some fish. Can you help us out? And we're like, you know, sure. And so one thing came to another. I met we met with the Des Moines Marina people and found out everything was all set up. They had a pen there, they had when we had to come up with a net and a new net. And they had all the volunteers there, and they had local schools that we got engaged. So we're doing 30,000 coho there. Now those are yearling. And yeah, the plan is next year is to do a sub yearling, a zero fish out of there, which isn't done in the state of Washington, but they can be introduced into salt water faster too. And the sooner you because they do it in Alaska and it's been successful. So our plan is to get that going next year, prove that it can happen, and it would save the department some money from having to feed those fish in the raceways, fish, food, electricity, the whole nine yards. Yeah, there's a lot of different reasons we're doing this, is to hopefully prove there's better ways, more economical ways to raise a lot of fish. Now, those hundred thousand Chinook or even these coho, you take them out of the raceways, right? You got more room in raceways for more fish. I can define raceways where the fish come out of when they're ready to come out into freshwater raceways or tanks where they feed them in other tanks, yeah, raceways, I think they call them. But so you take that hundred thousand fish out there, you got room for another 100,000 fish, right? Or say it's a million if decrease your pens increase.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:20

Yeah, I I know that this has been a lot of fun for I think if I'm understanding it correctly, so some public schools are participating in the same program where they're raising fish uh in public schools, classrooms, and they're releasing those. Maybe it's part of Northwest Salmon research, but maybe not as same as these enclosures. But so we got that going on. I think that's a ton of fun for the kids to be involved in and for us to do our part on trying to enhance a resource. I think there's a net pen up in my neck of the woods, excuse me, yes, enclosure up in my neck of the woods. O'Carber, I believe they have a coho enclosure up there.

unknown 1:05:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:02

So I I think this is a wonderful program. Uh I think it's something that, as I said before, it it shows how inclusion and collaboration can occur with all sides of this pie that we make up.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:19

Most people are very excited to be involved. When we feed those fish, we have a calendar on our website at the Pew Sound Angler website for Gig Harbor chapter. You click on that, you can sign up the fish feed fish. So we encourage the public to come down there and feed the fish. And we get a ton of people signing up and occasionally call me, How do I feed these fish? Where do I find the food? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I give them a little bit of instruction there. You got to remember when we take these fish from the raceways to the saltwater enclosure, you bypass that freshwater toxins, predators, the whole nine yards. So the survival rate jumps right away from taking them from. Those raceways right to saltwater. They aren't going down those streams and into the Chalk River where there's a thousand cormorants eyeballing as they go by.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:10

So it's true. Tell me this. What does it take to sign up to become a PSA member? How hard is it to be a PSA member? How much is it? And then how much time does it take if they did want to volunteer to be part of the NetPen program, the enclosure program, and feed some fish? How long does it take to feed the fish?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:30

To become a member, you can go on the website, sign up. It's $40 for the family for the year. And it's only $40 because I beat them up the last three or four years, going $40, $30 if you jump it to I wanted to make it $100. These guys are there's a few seniors there and they're tight, but it's $40. It's family membership. We have all kinds of outings, a couple of uh club derbies. It's a lot of fun. You learn a lot. Yeah, there's a lot of great guys there, some really knowledgeable guys.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:00

Um I'm not a yeah, I'm not a PSA member, but I've attended a couple PSA meetings. I've intended attended the Snow King meeting a couple times to see some folks that are speaking there. And I've I've had a chance of speaking at my local group, the PSA Fidalgo group. I would love to see PSA as a whole maybe get a little more active in the North of Falcon process. What would be your recommendation, or how do you see PSA maybe improving their participation in North of Falcon process?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:42

I think the best way would be the state board to get more engaged with the individual clubs to see what they want to see as a whole. I don't know from the top leadership if that happens. It seems like it's a little bit of tunnel vision at the upper end. Is that sure? I don't mean to put you on the spot, Art.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:11

Here, I'll I'll I'll help you out there. I'll throw you a life ring here. I think that on this on the state board level, they've done a really great job, whomever is in charge of that, of making sure that there continues to be strong relations with our co-managers. I think that's important. Has the PSA lost sight on the state level, and I don't need you to answer this, but I have we wonder at times has PSA at the state level lost sight of what's maybe the best avenue for expanding recreational opportunity and not having maybe that tunnel vision that you're talking about. And I don't need you to touch on that. I understand the dynamic to it all, but uh I appreciate you being a little candid on that. And and again, I'm gonna back you up here and say that maybe the state level has done some good things in certain aspects of this relationship and this co-management relationship. I I would love to see how PSA can improve their general North of Falcon contribution when it comes to recreational fisherman advocacy, but that's my two cents.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:22

Yeah, no, I agree. I think it feels and um I haven't engaged with the state board that much. I have a little bit, at times a little bit contentious, but I think it seems like there's some that are out of step with what's going on today. It feels like they're like 15 years ago. I don't know, it just seems like that. Some of the some of the comments that are made, I'm sitting there going, shoot, that was like 15, 20 years ago. What are you talking about? Today's a whole different thing. We don't need to go all down that road entirely.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:57

I think I brought it up. No, no, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:59

I think that the organization as a whole, those there's a lot of clubs that do a lot of good stuff. They do egg boxes, all kinds of great things. Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:07

A lot of stuff that they can overshadow the great discussion that you just helped provide on this wonderful program that you guys are are a big playing role in with these resource enhancement programs that you guys are working on. So I I do have a lot of admiration for what folks like you and PSA are doing. So I don't want to overshadow that at all.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:27

Who cares? Who cares what the leaders of PSA are doing? You need to get in there because there's doing the you guys are doing some fantastic things. You can go in there and you can learn a bunch of cool tips from a lot of people that have been fishing for a really long time. It's a great I when I went there, everybody's sharing tips. Where's you can get the hot tips where everybody's fishing? People like to share where they're fishing because they don't feel like they're gonna get blasted on Facebook because they put the hot run on the internet. It was a fantastic opportunity for me to connect with some people, and I highly recommend for 40 bucks. Come on, everything that you guys do for 40. Just you can't even get a quarter of a tank of gas on your pickup truck for 40 bucks. Just you guys help the fisheries, you help recreational fisheries. People need to find your local PSA chapter, give them 40 bucks, try and make as many of them as you possibly can, and we'll we'll all be able to reap the rewards of it long term.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:22

Oh, yeah, I think so. You'll learn a lot. It's fun, it's it's enjoyable, I think. And I'd like to see personally all these groups come together with a single voice. If we did that, of course, we've been trying to do that for 30 years, 40 years, they'd have a lot of power and get a lot done. But we divide ourselves, unfortunately. We're gonna recommend that you be the leader of that new group.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:48

Hey R, thank you so much for coming and talking with us, man. I learned a bunch about those enclosures. I'm gonna memorize that scientific saying of the enclosures. I really appreciate you talking candidly about the advisory group. I can't wait for the North of Falcon next year. I can't wait.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:05

No, you're crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:07

I'm excited about it. I've already got my list of topics that I'm gonna talk about. I've got like four of them on there. I'm gonna plan all year for that public comment period. And I really hope that we can get some movement. I'm excited. And Art, it's always a pleasure talking with you. Every single time I talk to you, I always smile. I have never seen somebody in this mire of crap that we deal with, the politics of fishing, as positive as you are. You are always smiling, you're always positive. Man, I really appreciate talking with you.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:38

Yeah, thanks a lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:41

Tell your wife thank you for letting you come on tonight. I appreciate it.