Neutral Zone
Welcome to Neutral Zone!
A podcast about the people behind the Dentistry profession.
I'm Dr Fran Brelsford and I invite you to meet a different dentist with me on each episode.
We chat with the humans behind the drills and the instagram profiles.
No hustle, no ego, no clinical chat.
Just good old fashioned conversation, new questions, and genuine connection.
Episodes dropped on Wednesdays.
Because there’s more to life than teeth.
Neutral Zone
Mehul Shah
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Meet Mehul, a trained dentist and medic with many passions outside of his professions.
His life experience has shaped the clinician he is today and how he chooses to work.
We chat about the importance of community, friendship and balance.
@drmezshah
I'm Mahel Shah and this is Neutral Zone.
SPEAKER_02Hi Mahel.
SPEAKER_00Hello.
SPEAKER_02Thank you so much for coming to Neutral Zone. We're in Worcester, which is your neck of the woods.
SPEAKER_00It is, yeah. We're at the Dice Box. It's one of my favourite places to be. I come pretty much every other week, possibly almost maybe every week as well. So I I board game here, mainly playing Dungeons and Dragons with friends. So yeah, it's a it's a really cool space. I love it.
SPEAKER_02Nice community. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Outside of dentistry. Outside of dentistry, yeah. It's it's a community which I've built or has been built, I suppose, through friendship and gaming over the past sort of year and a half, two years. Um and yeah, we've become much better friends, and it's it's it's just a great place to hang out.
SPEAKER_02It's quite meditative, really, isn't it? Playing something like that.
SPEAKER_00I imagine. It can. Tell me more. It can it can be. Um, I suppose embodying a different character, uh, especially in Dungeons and Dragons, you can maybe explore different parts of you that you wouldn't normally maybe display anywhere else. Um, you can embody different things, different people, and yeah, just let your imagination run wild. Um and yeah, the interactions with with friends and the group, I think normally there are about five or five or six of us playing. It's great because we can get into like fake arguments or try and come up with strategies in terms of how to beat a trap or how to beat a monster and things like that. It's it's just brilliant.
SPEAKER_02Escapism, it sounds like a little bit, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I would say, I would say escapism as an and I think I think it works. I say works well, um, I think that's the wrong word, but I think that's great for us as professionals because it gets us out of our own heads. Um after long days, hard days. You can just refocus on something else and actually, you know, let your mind wander elsewhere rather than focusing on potential problems, issues, things that or even things that have gone well, or whatever's happened during the day, really, and just let yourself be free.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's nice. That sounds like a a good idea after one of those crazy work days in a profession.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02So you're a medic and a dentist.
SPEAKER_00I am, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So there's two professions or vocations there. How much of your identity do you think is tied to them or each of them? Maybe it's different for you.
SPEAKER_00Ooh, um, so I would say in the past, I would say nearly maybe 80% of my identity would have been tied to the profession. So I wanted to become a maxillofacial surgeon. And um, for those listening who don't know, that requires both medical and dental degrees in this country. Um, and so if I'd gone down that route and kept pursuing it, then I think you know, 80-90% of my identity would be tied just to that. Right now, I would say it's probably less than 50%, I would say about 40%. I think that's because I'm now finding balance. And I think that that is really difficult in our profession because we spend so long training for something, and then we have to keep up our training, we have to keep up the continued professional development and things. Um so yeah, I think I think now it's 40% simply because of the community that um I've built, uh not just at the dice box and gaming, but also in church and friends outside of dentistry. Um, and so my identity is no longer tied to what I just do. I think now what I do is part of my life, it is not all of my life. Um, and I think I've entered a stage of my career now where I've I've kind of focused down into the bits of dentistry which I really love, and that just shifts the dynamic massively because I no longer see it as just working or just planning. It's I'm going in there to help genuinely help people. Um, and that's that's what really brings me joy within within the profession.
SPEAKER_02Do you think it feels healthier to be at 40% rather than 80? For you, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's freed up so much headspace um because I'm no longer obsessing about what do people think of me? Have I done the right thing in dentistry? Have I pursued the right career pathway? Because I think there's a tendency for people to think, should you have gone on and actually continued and become a consultant, maxillofacial surgeon? Looking back on it, you know, I think to myself, sure, that would have been great, and you know, I would have loved it. But how much of my life would have been consumed by it personally? I have no slight on people who go off and do that and who do that. Um, and I respect them massively. You know, some of some of my good friends are are consultants at the moment, but I for me it's not about that, it's about quality of life, and you know, dentistry is going or going back to dentistry has given me that opportunity, certainly.
SPEAKER_02A bit more free free will to choose or to it's bespoke, isn't it? You can make it make the job just the bitch you want for yourself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. And I think there is a period of learning where I I valued doing everything, so I have a depth of knowledge, but yeah, it it gives you freedom to choose your hours, choose your days, choose what you want to do ultimately. A lot of flexibility, yeah. It's a lot of flexibility, and I think that that's great. And let's not let's not kid ourselves, you know. It's it's also well remunerated. Hopefully, we get to that stage, but I'm not one personally who goes after money. I think you know, you acquire skills, you will will eventually make as much as you need to live and and and not just survive, live. And I think that that's the thing, you know, you you want to go and live life, and I think that I'm at that stage where I think, you know what, I'm I'm content. I want to I want to live my life now, and I enjoy the the time that I have um within the profession and out more importantly, outside of the profession as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, peace and time. Yeah underrated, aren't they?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_02Do you did you always think you were going to be a in a medical profession?
SPEAKER_00Uh no. No is the honest answer. Um so back when I think what? Well, back when I was like 11, 11 or 12. Um I remember having, I think, quite a grown-up conversation with my dad. You know, my dad at the time, um, he was an oral surgeon, he was on the specialist list, he worked in hospital, he worked with the maxillofacial surgeons of his day, and he actively discouraged me from pursuing medicine or dentistry. So it's quite ironic that I then went and did both the degrees that he actually said don't go and do. Um, some would say I followed in his footsteps, but it is, it is what it is. I just found joy in in sort of wanting to help people. But he um, yeah, so he said he said, don't do it. So my mind kind of went to, okay, so if I'm not gonna do those two, which was which were kind of modeled by my dad in one sense, what what do I want to do? And I picked up on one of his other hobbies, uh, which was flying. So he was actually uh a qualified pilot, not commercial, um, just light aircraft. And I thought to myself, ooh, um, why don't I become a commercial airline pilot? But um yeah, that didn't pan out, unfortunately. Um, he was he was going to give, well, say give me, gift me, I suppose, flying lessons um after I had done my GCSEs. Um, unfortunately, that didn't happen because um he passed away that year. He was struggling with mental health, um, and unfortunately he took his own life. Um yeah, that that didn't pan out. And there was a lot, there was also a lot going on within my family at that time as well. So a lot of illness, a lot of other family members did pass away. So that was a really, really tough time. And unfortunately, I didn't get to experience sort of flying, and I suppose flying with him uh in that sense. So I then maybe I wouldn't say I wouldn't say because of that, but you know, my mind kind of became a bit more serious and a bit more stoic um after those events. And yeah, there is a time for stoic, and yeah, I've learned there's a time for stoicism, and there's a time to reflect and a time to sort of process all of this. And at the time, I think my mind went to ooh, um, you know, I need to be strong, I need to be stable, I need to not be be the man, but I need to uh I need to pursue something that's a bit more regulated rather than flying, which may be seen as something not sort of steady, I suppose, at that point. So my mind went back to dentistry, really. Um I was good with my hands, uh, I enjoyed, I enjoyed sort of crafting things, I enjoyed the creative side of things, and I think dentistry was sort of fulfilled a lot of that. And I had a quite an analytical scientific side of me. And it kind of all meshed together, to be fair, because you know, as dentists, you can see us see ourselves as sort of carpenters, as sometimes therapists to patients who are bringing things into the surgery not related to dentistry or their mouths, but just going through a hard time. Um, you know, we can see ourselves as artists, you know, we work on a micro scale in terms of artistry. Um, and yeah, just mechanics and things, you know, there's so much involved in that. And I thought, you know what, dentistry actually fulfills a lot of that for me. And so that's why, that's why eventually I think I pursued it. Because I could see myself and I could see my career at that time um going down that route. Now, obviously, I went off and did medicine again, but that's because I thought that at the time, again, surgery and maxillofacial surgery in particular was for me. You know, I wanted to go and I had well, I had ambitions to go off and do cleft lip and palate surgery, whether that be primary surgery or whether that be sort of secondary surgery, so primary surgery closing the actual defect in the palate or secondary surgery where you're doing bone grafts and um uh you know repositioning jaws and things. And so that was my ultimate aim. But I think, and again, no slight on the hospital system, but um I I didn't gel with that system, and so I took myself out before I burnt out.
SPEAKER_02That's very brave, that's very brave and a courageous step, you know, like knowing yourself enough to think. I think so many of us just carry on regardless, because you think you know you you're that kind of person anyway, going into these vocations with needing the grades, and then it's one hurdle after another, and you just keep going. But to take a step back and think this isn't for me, yeah. Um is great.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I think I think it goes it's for me got to the point of saying how many exams am I gonna take? How how long am I gonna have to be in the system before I reach my goal? And how much life or how much of my life, not am I gonna miss out, but how much of my life is gonna be dictated by other people that I don't really have a say in. And unfortunately, at the moment the hospital system is such, training within the hospital system is such that you don't have a lot of say, you don't have a lot of play. And I said to myself, well, you know, I was reaching the point of saying, well, I'm quite content, but you know, if I want to explore, you know, maybe settling down or eventually having kids or anything like that, then it becomes difficult. And and also I was just like, you know, I I can't necessarily take time off when I when I want to. It has to be dictated by a schedule. So I said to myself, it's not it's not a life which I want to live. And you know, a lot of people have asked me, so do you regret doing medicine after doing dentistry? Do you regret the pathway that you took? And I said to I say to them, no, not really, because it's shown me a lot about myself, and also it's helped me to sort of empathize with patients right now, um, in in in I think a deeper way than I could before.
SPEAKER_02And it's led you to now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's it's it's a very uh you some would say a tortuous pathway, but it's a pathway which I don't regret taking. And yeah, it's it's positioned me, I would say uniquely within the dental setting to say, I've got the skills to do a certain certain number of things.
SPEAKER_02And I bet you're less phased by things walking in after what you've to a certain degree.
SPEAKER_00I think she was I think I think there's there's always gonna be there's always gonna be times when you think, oh my gosh, I need to read up on this or I need to learn, or I need to ask a colleague who is more experienced in that field. Um and even if they're younger than me, but they're more experienced, then that's fine. You know, I'm I'm I'm all about uh I'm all about within dentistry collaboration. I I don't like a top-down view um where a boss sits at the top and then you know there are underlings underneath. I think otherwise, if it's that structure, then I think we could get very isolated. And I think dentistry is already a very isolated career if you if you think about it in general practice, like we've all been there. And so I value collaboration collaboration, I value like pop like someone popping into me or me going to another person saying, Oh, what do you think about this case, or what do you think about um what do you think about doing things in in a slightly different way? And actually, you know, coming to a conclusion that's best for the patient. But yeah, I think I'm less phased by stuff, but there's still a hell of a lot long way to go. Hell of a long way to go. I mean, we never stop learning as we say, but uh yeah.
SPEAKER_02Do you do you think how everything you went through when you're doing your GCSEs, did you take any time out or do you think it shaped you? Must have.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think I mean people don't mean it in a bad way. But one of the most unhelpful things that people could say at the time was you've got to be strong. As a 15, 16-year-old having gone through trauma and then having gone through GCSEs and having you know, having the prospect of A levels or AS and A levels at the time when we were doing it, or when I was doing it, um it kind of creates that I've got to push through attitude. And I, although the funerals and the heartache and whatever, I expressed that at the time, I didn't really process it. All I did was push through. And all I did was I say all I did was push through. I I basically buried a lot of that and I pushed through A levels, even my degree, um, so I did dentistry first, then medicine. So I pushed through dentistry without really having processed that stuff. I mean I had you know, I'm I'm I I can say this, I was blessed to have fantastic friends at the time. And, you know, they more than they will ever know, they they helped to carry me, they helped to even though they didn't necessarily bring any of that up, they really helped to help to help me unwind, basically. Um and just be myself and just you know, not talk about dentistry or not talk about university or whatever else, and just sit there gaming or you know, playing Halo or Dungeons and Dragons or whatever it might be, or just having you know, laughing at Lord of the Rings because there are some really ridiculous scenes in there, you know. So it's it was it was great. And that time, although it was hard, it was also precious because I really you know I really deepen friendships at that at that point in time.
SPEAKER_02It's uh it's a a very tricky time anyway, that late teen years. Yeah. Whenever I have patients coming in of that age, I'm like, gosh, I won't go back to that in a for any money. I I think it's a a tricky time, never mind with all the extra stuff you had to deal with.
SPEAKER_00That is yeah. I mean, I I think I think I think today's generation probably has it harder than we did, I would say, with the advent of social media um and the way that social media has taken off. I think when when I was at uni, I'm sure it was similar for yourself as well. That when we were in uni, I think social media was literally at its very, very beginning.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And we didn't have I don't think we had the pressure. I think I don't think there was that pressure of I've got to be a certain way or look a certain way or do things a certain way. And in one sense, I think we're blessed for it because we we're still sort of continuing in that vein.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the the freedom just to be yourself or I can't imagine those first uni nights out of somebody was I'm glad a lot of it wasn't documented.
SPEAKER_00Oh, definitely, definitely. I uh yeah, sports, uh sports, uh what's it called? Fresh freshest week on sports, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh I don't I don't particularly drink myself, but the shenanigans were wild. If that was documented today, I really don't know what would happen, to be honest. Um but no, it was it was great. I think, you know, and again, no slight on today's generation. I mean, you know, they they've got it really hard. Um, you know, I think there are statistics to say that they're quite a lonely generation. And again, it comes for me, it comes back to community. Um, you know, back back when I was going through A levels or university, I had my friends there, um, and close friends. You know, I I've kept in touch with some of them now for nearly 30 years. And you know, that those those long-lasting friendships. Yeah, they're precious. Yeah, they're they're the ones who really like helped stabilize me in in times of need, but then again, lightened when things have gotten a lot better, and it they just ebb and flow in a way that you can't describe, really.
SPEAKER_02Um I think with those friendships, because they've known you through the whole thing, a lot goes unsaid. You don't have to talk about they know without you saying, and it's helpful.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. I mean, to be honest, I've experienced that more recently as well. So life again took a bit of a curveball about three years ago, and um, you know, I again thought to myself, there's two ways which I can go. I can either isolate myself and say I'm gonna be judged, or I could lean into community once more. And the one common thread, although I mentioned friends and things, I will say that I'm a man of science, but I'm also a man of faith. So I'm not gonna, I'm I'm not here to preach about it, but I'm here to mention it and say, you know, my faith in Jesus is what has really sustained me, truly sustained me throughout all of this. And so coming back to sort of more recently, um, I said to myself, I can either isolate myself or lean into community. And, you know, my ch I say my church community, but the community that existed at the churches that I've attended here in Worcester have been magnificent. And again, you know, it's it's not within dentistry, but it's outside of dentistry. The strength has come from them, they've leaned in, they didn't judge me, they rallied around me, they might not have said much, but they were there, and just their very presence is what helped me.
SPEAKER_02To receive you into that community, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. And and and growth as well. So I moved from one church to another, and you know, the the the current church which I'm at is is brilliant. You know, they've they've invited me in to, for example, be be on the the worship band. I'm expanding my skill in that sense. Um and yeah, it's just been it's just been brilliant, and just that deepening of friendship and deepening of community there, and I've seen it reflected here in the gaming community as well, where the friendship has just gotten deeper and deeper. Um so yeah, it's it's been brilliant.
SPEAKER_02What um instrument do you play?
SPEAKER_00So I play the guitar. Um I used to play the sitar, which is an Indian instrument, um, but uh I haven't played that in many, many years. So guitar is my main instrument at the moment, and I sing as well. So uh singing is actually my I would say my forte. I only took up playing guitar about five, six years ago. So I'm I'm an okay standard, but I'm trying to push myself to to get better. It's it's it's it's always such a steep learning curve, honestly.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's fine, especially as you get a bit older.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I mean it well, like so. I'm learning I'm learning from the the worship director at my church at the moment, and he's like the way that we use our hands in dentistry is so different to the way that we use hands playing the guitar, but it's just about separating or making the fingers more independent at the moment, and it's so difficult. It is so hard.
SPEAKER_02Interesting. Different parts of our brain, I suppose.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, exactly. So although we're doing using fine motor skills, it's completely it's completely s like different. So I'm learning, I'm trying to learn how to finger pick, which means moving thumb and all the other fingers independently, and then moving on my right hand, and then moving all the other fingers, so these four fingers independently on my left hand as well. So it's yeah. It can be it can be tough.
SPEAKER_02It's like when they say start brushing your teeth with your opposite hand, yeah. Open your pathways.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or stand on one leg while doing that as well. So so yeah, it's um yeah, intriguing.
SPEAKER_02I always imagine when you're talking about a community then, like one of those Venn diagrams and you're at the center.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And how many circles are around you almost?
SPEAKER_00I mean, so so if you I don't know, you can you separate sort of I wouldn't separate friendships from anywhere else. So I could say like gaming community, um, church community, family, and and yes, prof I think professional community comes into it as well. I think, you know, if you build within the profession, if you build good connections, uh good friendships, uh, and also within your practices, you know, if you build great connections with the people that you work with, I think that that can be that can be fantastic. You know, I mentioned I mentioned that tough time sort of three years ago. The practice I was at at the time, you know, it wasn't everyone that I got on with, but there were a couple of people who I could who I knew that I could depend on, who I knew that I could you sort of tell. And they wouldn't judge, they would just hear me and bounce things off. But going through that and going to work at the same time, it was important for me to have those those relationships, you know, at work. Um, and you know, family's massively important. I haven't mentioned them, but you know, I think in your darkest hour, who's gonna be standing with you? Yeah, sure, my my best mates or my mates at church. But family is so so important. I think sometimes we may be getting all-consuming, you know, within the profession or within our little own little bubble that we can sometimes sideline. And I think you know, it's it's a it try trying to make some time um is is really important. But yeah, it's through through the very darkest periods of my life, certainly, you know, family have always always stepped up.
SPEAKER_02Pulled you through.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Is there anything you're thinking you still want to achieve, or do you think you've you've got to a point where it's enough work-wise?
SPEAKER_00Work-wise, I think no, I think, I think, I think I'm I'm sort of content where I am. Not to say that I won't go and do more courses to sharpen my skill within my field. So I only so now my practice is limited to only oral surgery and implantology, so I don't do any general dentistry anymore. I stepped away from that fairly recently, so it was October 25 that I stepped in, stepped away from general dentistry, so it's fairly recent. But I now don't want to be honest, I I'm not one for accolades. Like I don't want any more accolades, I don't want to go off and do an MSc. I don't want to do an MKIN dent. Frankly, I think I'm too old for it. But um, I don't want to accumulate more degrees or letters after my name. I I like where I am and I like what I'm doing, and all I want to do is just become sharper in that area. So it's not finish down. Yeah, exactly, exactly. I just I just remember something from um something from a book called Murphy's Law, where it says an expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less until they're an expert at absolutely nothing, basically.
SPEAKER_02I love that. Um the more you know, the less you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. But no, so yeah, I'm I think I think I'm content with with in my work life. Um, you know, I'm happy where I am. Um I'm ha I'm really enjoying what I'm doing. And I think that that's the key.
SPEAKER_02It is. That's the most important thing. You these these kind of vocations or jobs are a long haul throughout your life. People rarely go off and quit and do something else completely. So you've got to enjoy it. I don't know how people do it if they if they don't. But finding the bit you do.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I and I think I think sort of I think external externally discipline plays a large part in it as well. So when I say like now dentistry, we go back and say identity is now 40% of my identity. The rest is yes, gaming and church and all of that stuff, but it's also discipline. I think as you get older you realise the more discipline you have, the more free you are, because you're then not letting your profession consume you. You have other things to do. So, for example, exercise or going to the gym, you know, I think for a lot of us, and especially for me, I found that is really, really good mental release. And I've just loved it, you know.
SPEAKER_02Read somewhere and I it's exactly how I feel. Because after a crazy day, all I want to do is get in the gym. And they said you exhaust the body to free the mind.
SPEAKER_00To free the mind, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh, it's it sums it up perfectly. It's a non-negotiable one, sure. Yeah, I think.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think for longevity as well, because I'm not, you know, I'm I'm not the biggest guy in the world. I don't ever want to be like Jack, but it's more so about longevity for me.
SPEAKER_02Um mental wellness.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think I think mental wellness, but also like just building body that's resilient as well. It's not about it's about strength more so. Um, you know, I think I read somewhere and I was on um Simon Chard's dental growth retreat, and I think he said, he said um something which is, you know, if you want to, for example, pick up, and this is this is not data from him, but he just summarized it. But he said, if you want to, for example, when you're older, pick up your grandkids, you need to be lifting heavy now because you're gonna otherwise you're gonna lose the muscle mass and you're not gonna be able to do it. So I'm thinking about, you know, thinking about that longevity, but also, you know, neck neck issues in dentistry, back issues in dentistry, you know, sciatica, like, you know, there's so much at play because because of the position that we're in. That's a pain-free life.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00Well, try trying to make it as pain free as possible. I mean, I know I need to go for a massage, to be honest with you, quite quite soon. I know that.
SPEAKER_02You used to laugh at your parents when you were younger and they say, Oh, when you get older, things start hurting. I think, oh, my joints are aching.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Well, wake up well, well, yeah, mid mid mid to late 30s now, and your net and your neck starts cricking when you sleep awkwardly, right? So, yeah, it's one of those.
SPEAKER_02But so it sounds like success, though the definition of success has changed massively over the last however many years practicing. Yeah, how long it looked like to you now? You've probably summed it up pretty well already.
SPEAKER_00How long? Yeah, how long, how long has it been now? I've been qualified since 2011.
SPEAKER_0215 years.
SPEAKER_00Fifteen years, 15 years-ish.
SPEAKER_0220 years started ago.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, something like that. So it's been a long time. I think I think the before the definition of success for me was, and I did think about this stuff. I think we all we all do in some regard. You know, the house, the fancy car, the massive holidays, the ridiculous watches, whatever it might be. And if you can afford it, and you know, again, no slight on anyone who does that. It's just just the way you just just the way that I think. You know, the definition of my success is now earn enough to live and live. And just do just do in life what you enjoy. You know, that's that I think is is the greatest joy that you could ever have and the greatest success, really.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Has anyone ever given you particularly good advice along the way? Have you had any mentors in work? Um aside from your dad.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I would say when I was doing VT, um, so I did VT over in Norfolk. I moved around quite a bit actually in my job. So I did VT over in Norfolk, um, in a little town called Attleboro. Um my VT trainer's name is Quintus. I can still picture him.
SPEAKER_02Quentin.
SPEAKER_00Quintus.
SPEAKER_02Oh, Quintus.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Quintus. He's actually part of the he's one of the directors for the IDDA now. Um, so if you ever anyone watching this, if you're if you're in the dental field, go check them out. They're they're good guys. Um, but yeah, he was he was my VT trainer. Um, I learned a lot from him. I remember I remember sort of one advice on life, not dentistry that he gave me. But he just said, you know, don't rush anything. Just let life unfold. I think that that has actually been a recurring theme as well within all of the mentors that I've had. So the consultants, um, the consultants at uh at Luton and Dunsible Hospital, um, who I used to work with, or the registrars as well, who are now consultants, um, they, you know, they gave the same advice as well. It's like it's a long career. It's like don't don't be rushing to the end goal. You will eventually get there, but don't rush. Experience as much as you can, do as much as you can, be you know, be in the fullness of as much as you can, and expose yourself to as much as you can, because then that's where you gain experience. I would say after that, really, it's it's just colleagues after that. Because once you're qualified, you form connections and you start you start sort of forming circles within dentistry, and it's who you associate yourself with and who you want to kind of influence you, because you have you do have a choice at that point. So, you know, with the advent of Instagram, I'm not much of a poster on Instagram. If you go on, if you go on my Instagram, you're not gonna see a hell of a lot of posts. But I do like Instagram because of his educational content when it's proper educational content, not just curated highlights of the best cases. Um, and there there are certain people on there, I'm not gonna name them, but there are certain people on there who I've gone to and who I think, wow, I've I just just by looking at their posts, I think, wow, that is fantastic. And I think two guys who I will mention, um, Minesh Patel and Imi Nasser, their courses have been transformative for me. And I would say, you know, those are the kind of guys that I would love to emulate or I'm trying to emulate in my day-to-day practice. Not because of the fancy cases that they do, not because of how beautiful they make everything look, but it's just because of the ethic that they have.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, they're they're good guys through and through.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, and yeah, there are other surgeons and people who I follow who I think actually, you know, these are the guys who I aspire to be like because of their work ethic, because they hold themselves to such high standards. So I think it's choosing your mentors um and actually being careful where where you you kind of put your attention, basically.
SPEAKER_02Choosing the ones that relate to you as a clinician.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02You you mentioned how you look after yourself with the gym. Anything else you do outside with that discipline?
SPEAKER_00So I say gym. Um I row, I've got a rowing machine at home, so I don't row, I don't row on the river. But I do do I do do some rowing as well. Um I have time set aside for practicing my guitar because obviously I can't just I can't just rock up on a Sunday or wherever it is and just play. That's just irresponsible. And um, and yeah, I think I think just chilling out, um, you know, discipline as well, in terms of going to my church's small group or connect group during the week, intentionally meeting mates outside of work, you know, having time for myself as well, just sometimes slobbing out on the sofa if I'm absolutely shattered. You know, I I used to, I think we've all been there, but I used to be one of those guys who thought, let's just power through. But now I'm learning to listen to my body and say, actually, am I tired? Am I, am I, do I have the bandwidth for doing X, Y, or Z right now, or do I need to rest? And I think I've taken rests quite seriously as well. And disciplined sleeping, I think, you know, is it's really easy to be doom scrolling at like, you know, half 10, 11 o'clock at night. And you just, you know, I think building in that discipline of saying, no, that's you know, 10 o'clock, 10 30, whatever it is, is my cutoff, is actually really healthy. Because then you can wake up early. I personally love waking up early and going to the gym. It's just me. So I'll wake up at five, go to the gym at six. Yeah. And then I'm I'm set, I feel set for the day. Um, other people do different things, but you know that works for you. Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's those sorts of things. Yeah, it's just intentionally making, I think I think being intentional about what you put in your life as well, which is which is really important. Um, and yeah, uh, you know, I've I've missed out reading because I'm I'm a bit on and off, I'm a bit on and off with reading at the moment. So I I've I've started a book and I've kind of put it down and I need to get back to it. But you know, even reading, taking your mind out of the day-to-day, yeah, I would say, and immersing yourself in something else.
SPEAKER_02What do you like reading?
SPEAKER_00Mainly fantasy and sci-fi. I mean, you can see from here, you know, whether we're at the dice box. But for me, yeah, fantasy and sci-fi is a big one. Um, so I'm a huge I'm a huge, like massive fantasy and sci-fi fan. Um recently, I think uh I've developed a tradition with one of my mates to watch uh one Lord of the Rings movie every Christmas with with him.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that's nice.
SPEAKER_00So that's quite good. So we've got we we did it in a bit of a weird order. So we started with the two towers. Now this past Christmas we did uh the fellowship, and then we're going on to Return of the King this coming Christmas. So a bit of an odd order, but hey, it's it's what it is. Um but yeah, Love Fantasy, love sci-fi can talk for literally hours on the subject. Literally hours.
SPEAKER_02Has that taken you uh like further afield? Have you gone traveling in search of that sort of hobby?
SPEAKER_00Or no, I think it's met me. I mean, um fantasy has been around all of my life because again, um, you know, my dad my dad's influence that when the Lord of the Rings movies were coming out, uh in oh god, it's been so long now, 2003-2004 it was, somewhere around there, he basically said, You you are not going to watch the movies until you've read the books.
SPEAKER_02Ah.
SPEAKER_00So because he wanted me to he wanted me to he wanted me to really immerse myself in the world. And also, I think at the time it was like expand your vocabulary, see how other people write and do and see and you know express themselves. Um but uh but yeah, so it's been around since then, and then my friendship group, you know, we started playing Dungeons and Dragons from a very, very early age, and that has ebbed and flowed. But so the injection of fantasy from that realm, and then you know, um, again, sci-fi from a very young age, so it's kind of it's kind of built on in layers, um, and it's kind of met me, and um again recently I've rediscovered an old 90s sci-fi show which is so nostalgic, which is now on Netflix. Um, and so it's kind of finding me again.
SPEAKER_02What's it called?
SPEAKER_00Uh Stargate.
SPEAKER_02Stargate.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it was a it was a movie in '94, and then the series came out in '96. So I've watched it all the way from the beginning to the end, and now it's back on Netflix. So I'm very excited to be re-watching it.
SPEAKER_02I find it so interesting that you've gone down such a scientific, yeah, um dexterous, you know, particular career. Yeah. And then in the background there's this just completely different world.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's cool.
SPEAKER_00I think I think I think we all need that though, because otherwise it becomes, you know, polarity. Uh I think I've read somewhere that polarity in life is good. And you know, I wouldn't say that I'm just a science guy or I'm just a technical guy, but you know, I love I love the creative side as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we're all multifaceted. You don't want to put yourself in a box. No, absolutely not. It hinders all sorts of things.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02How do you deal or have you dealt with in the past when something's not gone quite right? Failure. You sound like you've just kept going in almost.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. In terms of what in terms of in terms of work or in terms of life or in terms of both? Both.
SPEAKER_02Both.
SPEAKER_00So I think overall, before, and I think in dentist history this is quite prevalent. Um, but it relates to my overall life as well. Um, there's a high degree of wanting to be perfect, and there's a high degree of perfectionism. So whenever we, I don't know, the a feeling is not quite right, or it's too high, or the patient's in pain, or the crown margin's not to the micrometer, whatever it might be, you know, we've we've all beat ourselves up, and I've done it as well. Um, but back then, so early on in my career, early on in sort of forming friendships and things, I used to over-analyse loads. I used to spiral, I used to think, oh my gosh, it's not quite right, or you know, what what happened to that patient when I took that tooth out? Was that okay or not? And I'm not saying that I don't care. I think I still do care. But it's a case of that's good, and I think that's a good standard because we're not machines. And how much Elon Musk will think that we can be replaced by machines operating in such a small area. We're not machines, and we're we're human, and we will have error. There's inherent error built into all of us, and so I think it's it's about constant refinement, yes, but it's about saying, okay, I did that, I own that, how can I improve for next time? And not beating yourself up about it. I think there's a lot of there's a lot of back back in the day, there's a lot of beating myself up about things that maybe weren't quite in my control. Now, obviously, if I did it, if I did a filling and it was super high or something like that, that's on me. But you know, if it's if it's just like tiny things, now I'm just like, look, it's fine, it's okay, chill. Perspective, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it you know, you I I think as you go on, and as you not just in career, but I think in just generally in life, you start to think, you know what, the perspective changes and you start I think you start to mellow a little bit as well.
SPEAKER_02I used to I live with my cousin at one point and um he's not in health profession at all, but he said something that stuck with him, his friend just used to always say, Don't sweat the small stuff. Yeah, and it sounds like not very much, but we all know what the small stuff is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes you find yourself going over the tiniest thing, and then you think, gosh, other jobs the pressure is so much higher. You know, we're we're there, it's uh good enough is good enough sometimes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and sometimes yeah, and sometimes it is, but I think our brains are and again, no fault of dental schools, it's just how it's just how it is. But we're taught to measure things in micrometers, we're taught to measure things to the millimeter, you know, our brains focus in on the tiniest, tiniest details, and I think that can sometimes overarch and overextend into general life. You start to overanalyse everything, and sometimes, you know, even in dental school it it got really competitive.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And you know, looking back on it, I think when I did my medical degree, I went into it slightly differently, and I was just like, I'm not competing with anybody, I'm here to learn from me, I'm here to achieve what I need to achieve for me, it's not for anybody else. Yeah, it's not competing against you know who whoever else it is. And again, the the perspective shift was was massive because it's not that again, it's not that I didn't care, but it's just that no, I think it's so obvious you do care.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. It's it is a it is a tricky job. There's no two ways about it. It's like everything is so precise and has to be. Like you said, the competitiveness of dental school, it's such a dexterous job, and yeah, the way you get in is by academia.
SPEAKER_01Exactly.
SPEAKER_02It's it's obviously there's gonna be people that are better at it than others naturally.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um it's all I think it's way more arty than than anything.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I think I think now, I think, I think with the way that dentistry is developing 100%.
SPEAKER_02And you can learn that as a skill.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02But that wasn't really the emphasis when you were starting from scratch.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. But I mean we were taught, so I think do I say this, might be probably one of the last generations to learn how to cut a cavity for amalgam, for example.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, with black classification. Yeah, exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_00So now you think about it, it's like, okay, we use black's classification for like saying where a cavity might be, but at the end of the day, with the materials that we now use and the adhesive techniques and whatever else, it's like, do we really need to classify it that way? Or do we need to actually do do it as we did it before? Or do can we actually be a bit bolder? Can we push the boundaries? Can we actually, as you will know, and you do a lot of this, um, you know, adhesive biomimetic dentistry, it's like, can we actually push the boat out and actually achieve something that maybe we say we couldn't do before? So I'm not saying that that, you know, what we taught was what we were taught was bad, but um, you know, it's it's just a different way of thinking.
SPEAKER_02It is, it's it I think it's changed completely since I graduated two years after you, so similar time. Yeah, it's it's gone full circle.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I almost laugh at what my first jobs were like, what my day looks like now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, you know, my amalgam was banned in last month, was it not, over the EU, or it's been phased out of the state.
SPEAKER_00Well, the EU, yes. And I know that the UK, we're not technically part of the EU.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But we're gonna follow probably similar a similar pathway.
SPEAKER_02So And then you think, gosh, is the curriculum being updated? Because that then a whole module is redundant, or yeah, exactly. I placed 90% amalgams at uni, did you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we were we we had quotas, so we had composite quotas, amalgam quotas, etc. etc. But it was it was a case of in VT again. You know, you needed to do the UDAs, did the amalgam. Because you need to do you needed to get quicker, you need to get your skill up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So it wasn't necessarily about the composites, it wasn't necessarily about the grand isolation, yeah, you know, and all all the rest of it. Um so yeah, it was uni was a fun time. Uni was a fun time, let's let's put it that way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it was thrown in at the deep end, weren't we? Really?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Does it feel like a long time to a go to you now? Doesn't it does it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I'm sort of I'm sort of ragging my lid because I want I'm I'm holding myself back from saying it doesn't feel like a long time. When when you think about it, it is. Like it's been fifteen years since I qualified, since I left. Twenty years since I went back, well, since I was actually in dental school. It's a long time.
SPEAKER_02And more than half your life, is it?
SPEAKER_00Um not quite.
SPEAKER_02Not quite. Oh, I'm reviewing things.
SPEAKER_00Not quite. I'm I'm I'm just the right side of 40. So yeah. Um I'm nearly there, but yeah, not quite.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but it's a big part of uh big proportion of life so far. What how do you see your future from now, like the rest of your career? Um very similar to it. Sounds like you've homed it down to what you need today to be.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I would I would say if I continued the same way. So if I if I say if I really realistically pictured um my day-to-day, and if it were as it was, as it, you know, if it's going to be as it is now, I'd be very happy.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's great.
SPEAKER_00Um, because I'm doing what I love. Like I say, I'm I'm I'm taking I'm taking difficult teeth out, I'm I'm taking wisdom teeth out, I'm placing implants, um, doing I'm doing a bit of bone grafting. And yes, all of that still needs refinement, but it's what I enjoy, because I enjoy surgery. Um, you know, I can do other parts of dentistry aside from RCT very well. But um leave that to the end, okay. Yes, 100%, 100%. Um, and may maybe some removable pros, but let's leave that to one side. But no, you know, general dentistry is great, and I did like it when I did it, but there came a point where I said, you know what, I I want to really do what I love. And now because I'm doing what I love, I can't imagine not doing anything else.
SPEAKER_02Do you work every day?
SPEAKER_00I don't.
SPEAKER_02How many days do you do? I think that's mean.
SPEAKER_00So at the moment I'm working three days a week.
SPEAKER_02Perfect.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, at the moment I'm working three days. So it's so again, it comes down to balance and lifestyle. And I said to myself, it does come down to, you know, I again, people who work five, five days, six days, whatever it is, you know, I have no slides on them, but for me it's about lifestyle and balance. So I said to myself, if I can generally speaking earn in a month, in four days, three days, what I can in five or six, why do I not want to work those days? I'm not working crazy hours, I'm working nine to five. Um, and it's proven itself. And so, you know, I that's why I say to myself, well, I've got the headspace now, I've got the time. And realistically, I think with having now moved into implant dentistry and surgery within practice, you still have a standard to uphold. You've still got to do appropriate planning. Like, and I think planning is key. But I've got to have time to do that. I've got to have time to write letters, I've got to have time to explain things to patients. And if there are things, and I've got a bit of leeway to maybe go to the practice or one of the practices I work at, so I work in three different practices. So maybe go to one of the practices and say, Oh, have we got the X material or are we set for this? Or oh, I think this needs to be done slightly differently, and kind of just building that collaboration. Um, really. So it's give gives me a lot more headspace, but it also gives me time to relax if I need it as well. Because um, you know, whatever, whatever it is that we do in life, not just dentistry, it's hard. It's hard.
SPEAKER_02It's that balance, like you say, probably a lot easier to take your A game or your best self for three days a week, yeah, even if they're not huge sessions.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02But that's enough for you and enough to to fund your life, yeah, or your life as you like it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly, exactly. And and there's always scope to say if I've got more capacity or if I feel as if I got more capacity, then maybe I can add in a day somewhere else.
SPEAKER_02Of course you could, or just a low-come ship. Like our jobs are so flexible, that's one of the great things about it, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Exactly.
SPEAKER_02Okay, fab. I have loved this chat so far. We're gonna round things up. The last um question I tend to ask people is if you went back to starting dental school or medical school or graduating, yeah, yeah, yeah. What advice would you give to yourself or do you wish you'd been given?
SPEAKER_00I think this is advice which I've been given already, so I'm just gonna parrot it. Which is, and I and I mentioned it actually in this chat before, which is don't be in a rush. Um I think at the beginning of a dental school or somewhere along along that pathway up to graduation, you may start to think that you like a particular field or you like a particular aspect or whatever else. And sure, you one day you may get go into that. But I know plenty of people who have taken a longer route and have not gone into that, but they've gone into something else because they fell in love with something else. And I think as you get older, your maturity builds. I'm not gonna lie, like you know, we graduate dental school when what we're 23. Babies, yeah. It's in my opinion, that's way too early to know what you want and know what you want to do long term. And personally, if I'm being very frank, we don't have experience. There is there is a very there's very much a lack of experience in terms of a your life and be the wider world and see the wider world of dentistry. You don't know what's out there until you experience it. So I would say just don't rush, like experience as much as you can, do as much as you can, and immerse yourself in the environments that you're in. Um try and make the most of where you are as well. Um, and be you know, I would say as well, um, you know, we've all done it, just be humble. Sometimes we got we've gone on and been a bit arrogant, just be humble and think to yourself, what can I learn from those around me? And those are the those are really the key principles which I would say. Um and also I think really key, and I've mentioned it before, it's a big part of my life, as you know, find a community, find some find a place outside of dentistry where you can belong, and where you can you may be truly yourself within the dental sphere, but oftentimes we have to be the strong one for our patients, we have to be the stoic one, we have to uphold a certain way of doing things, but just have somewhere else outside that you can just be unhinged, basically.
SPEAKER_02I love that. I think that's great advice. Mehel, thank you so much. I so appreciate your time on a Saturday. Um, that was brilliant. That's my