Neutral Zone
Welcome to Neutral Zone!
A podcast about the people behind the Dentistry profession.
I'm Dr Fran Brelsford and I invite you to meet a different dentist with me on each episode.
We chat with the humans behind the drills and the instagram profiles.
No hustle, no ego, no clinical chat.
Just good old fashioned conversation, new questions, and genuine connection.
Episodes dropped on Wednesdays.
Because there’s more to life than teeth.
Neutral Zone
Josh Virdee
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Meet Josh. A leading London cosmetic dentist but so humble that you’d never know. He’s been through a lot in his personal life in the last few years and was open and generous enough to share the details of that with us.
We chat about personal growth, family, success and what really matters.
@jvteeth
I'm Josh Verdi and this is Neutral Zoned.
SPEAKER_01Hi Josh.
SPEAKER_00Hey friend.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for being here. That's alright. We're gonna jump straight in and ask you how much of your identity do you think is tied to our profession or to dentistry? Being a dentist.
SPEAKER_00Today probably Today. Yeah, today probably not much at all. Like when I first graduated, a lot more, I would say. But today, not at all actually.
SPEAKER_01Not just because it's a Sunday.
SPEAKER_00Nah, no, I'd just say in general, I think um I think you grow out of it.
SPEAKER_01How many years have you been graduated now?
SPEAKER_00Almost ten years last.
SPEAKER_01What do you mean by growing out of it?
SPEAKER_00I think when you first graduate, it's like you you turn from being a student to an adult and you have these new responsibilities and you're earning this money and you have like a newfound freedom. And it's like, what do you do with it? So you can't-DGU actually says Dr.
SPEAKER_01Verdi on it.
SPEAKER_00Put it on Facebook and you you vade it. But I think any human being, when they get that type of responsibility and that that title, it all kind of changes you. It does make it makes you mature just like that. Then you gotta kind of like work your way through it. I would say I do feel like when I first graduated, it was probably a part of my identity. Like when we used to go out on nights out, we used to have this thing. This is so crude.
SPEAKER_02Now you know what you're gonna say.
SPEAKER_00We used to have this thing, like and we used to say, Oh, we dropped the D card, which is like the dentist card, and like it's horrible. Yeah, it's horrible to think that, but that's the reality of it. Uh-huh. And I suppose you've got to go through the journey of that of maturing to realise that that was stupid.
SPEAKER_01It's just a job.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it is just a job. And I think like I still to this day I see people who I can tell their identity is their dentistry. And I feel sorry for them because it's not it's not a way to live. Yeah, it's not a way to live.
SPEAKER_01Well, if you're not a dentist, who else would you identify as being? Like what other roles have you got then?
SPEAKER_00I'd say I'm Josh from Leicester, like massive family person. I'm very proud that I'm from like a dual heritage background. Like my dad's born in well, born in Africa, were raised in India, Punjabi Sikh, and my mum's an Irish Catholic, born and raised in Corby. So it's like two different worlds.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, massively different.
SPEAKER_00And I and I love that because it's kind of exposed me to two different two different worlds, and in me, it's meant that I've kind of learned to just respect anyone, really. And I'd say that's my identity, is that that's how I was brought up in like a very like loving and close family. And I'd say also that's where I get a lot of my confidence from is like my close, my close-knit family. So I'd say that's where I'm today.
SPEAKER_01Who you are the Josh the dentist. Always drives me mad when someone introduces you and then like, oh this is this is Josh, he's a dentist.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_01And you're in London now. Yeah. What brought you here?
SPEAKER_00Well, I was in so I've graduated in Sheffield, and then after Sheffield, I went back to Leicester where I'm from, and I worked for about five or six years. But then during that time, all the guys were here, like living life, partying. And I always had a bit of foam, I thought, oh, I want to do that one day. And I suppose it got to a point after being in Leicester for five years where I just kind of got fed up. I felt like I'd achieved everything. And where else do you go? Where else do you move to from from Leicester if you're gonna stay in England and London was the place? So I moved here four years ago.
SPEAKER_02Is that all it is?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Feels like long, though. Feels like long.
SPEAKER_01Well, you've done pretty well for four years. Do you now work in Harrods?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Always on the plan.
SPEAKER_00Honestly, like it's it is interesting. I think starting off as an associate four years ago. Did I think I'd be here? Yeah, I think like to be honest with you, I'd when when people say, Oh, like you you're doing amazing, you're working. I don't really I don't see that as a massive achievement for some reason. I think there's other things in life to like take as an achievement, whereas like just working somewhere, I don't really make me feel better as a person, basically. It's the it's a natural course of what's happened, but I don't really I don't think it's that amazing.
SPEAKER_01What gives you pride in the job? What makes you like, oh, that was a good day?
SPEAKER_00Getting better. I love just getting better. That is it. Like it's obviously like making people happy is a is a massive part of it because you can do something amazing, but if they're not happy, it's the worst feeling ever. It's that dreaded message, oh, this person sent an email because of you forgot to do this or you didn't do that. So I'd say, like, number one, getting better every day and just doing something cool. But for me, I just think if you're gonna do something, do it the best way and just get better at it. And that's that's probably what I find most enjoyable, but also just making people happy.
SPEAKER_01But you do love it now.
SPEAKER_00I do love it. I do love it.
SPEAKER_01I think if you have to love it to want to do it better, yeah, yeah, true, true.
SPEAKER_00No, I I I definitely I just find it very satisfying. It's like that dopamine release, isn't it? You just just doing something that just looks good and works good. Yeah, yeah, I just I just find it it's it's anything, it's in my day I need a challenge. It's like if I have the day off, like my let's say I have a day off, I wake up in the morning, go to the gym, go for a walk, grab a coffee, and then by four, I'm like, okay, now I'm bored now, I need to do something. Or it's like when I go on holiday for for six days, day seven, I'm like, I feel a bit crap. I just feel like I'm not achieved. Yeah, I just I've not not achieved anything. So I feel like it's important to have those things in your day to like kind of balance it out, to to give you that good feeling. Like too much holiday and too much doing nothing, I just think for me, it's not healthy.
SPEAKER_01If you look back at you being a little boy, would people say he's gonna be a dentist?
SPEAKER_00I think when I was a little boy, probably not, to be honest with you.
SPEAKER_01What were you into?
SPEAKER_00I was into like cars, cars and football, but like when I was a little boy, I remember like at school, I had a I had like a teaching assistant slash helper in class.
SPEAKER_02Just for you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, and they're in like in your class, like some kids would have someone additional support. Yeah, I had that. Not like my whole, not that was only in primary school, like the first couple of years. So I don't think anyone ever thought I'd be like super like studious or anything. I don't know. I just remember having it.
SPEAKER_02Shy or something?
SPEAKER_00I just remember, yeah, yeah. I don't I I don't think it was shy. I just think it was probably more to do to the fact that maybe like I wasn't behaving like it wasn't like a it wasn't like a horrible kid, but maybe I don't know, my attention wasn't there, but I I clearly remember that. Maybe yeah, so so I don't think anyone would have thought that, but then when I was 15, when how old when you do your DCSCs?
SPEAKER_02But when I do have 15, 16, you're choosing them at 14.
SPEAKER_00It was year 11, year 11 before the start of year 11, however, older was something just happened. I was like, all right, I want to be comfortable in life. I want to be comfortable, like I wanna, I want to be able to have what I want. Yeah, never wanted to be like a millionaire or like it was nothing like that. I just wanted to be comfortable. I was like, okay, who do I know that's comfortable? There's that guy and there's that guy. What do they do? Oh, they do this and they do that. Let me do one of those things. And then I kind of just got from that point, I just got tunnel vision. And like GCSCs, those are the days where like GCSCs, you had a book, and as if you learn that book back to front, you do really well in your exams. And all it took was two or three days of learning this book, and you could do really well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, parrot fashion.
SPEAKER_00That's a that's how I learned. I think I'm blessed that I do maybe not so much now, but I had photographic memory, like I could remember the sheet that it was on. And so year 11 just kicked into action, did pretty well in my GCSEs, and then A levels, or actually the start of A levels, my first set of exams, I got like E D B A or something. And those are the days where you got your results in January. You knew you'd like you split it into modular. I remember lying in bed, like, no, I'm not letting this happen. And then from that day, no one at college saw me. I was in the library every day revising. There's whenever I see my old friends from like college, they're always like, see, those days it's worth it now, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01It's a really tricky part of your life because two years, if you knuckle down, changes everything.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm I I am the sort of person that if I tell myself I'm gonna do something, I will do it. I can't say there's much in my life that I've told myself I'm gonna do and not done it. And I feel everyone has that power. I feel like if you put your mind to something, you can do it because there's just certain steps you've got to take to get there.
SPEAKER_01Day to day now then, in your job, which bits do you find the most difficult?
SPEAKER_00I think only most recently is meeting clients who have very high expectations and you're charging a lot of money for it, but at the same time that they're quite anxious as well. That's the hardest. If I've got a client that's chilled, then it's really this fine to be honest with you. I really hit like a flow state. But I do find when you get clients who are anxious, it adds an extra layer of uncertainty to it. Um, but I'd actually say that's these days when I'm doing dentistry, the only time that I'm in under a little bit of pressure is when the patient is super anxious. If I've got a patient who's just like super chilled, which is which is most of the time, it's actually touch wood and blessed, I find it find it quite easy. But yeah.
SPEAKER_01I'd say the opposite in mind, but that's because it's cosmetic.
SPEAKER_00It's amazing that you get a client that's super anxious about dentistry or dental phobic, as they would say, but the second they want something, the dental phobia is out of the window. Is that it's it's amazing. You you see that, you see that with clients, and and on top of that, imagine I have some clients that travel in to have composite bonding done, and they've never met me before, and they're flying in, having composite, and then leaving. Imagine what type of person you have to be to not be like ruined with anxiety or like scared, or you you're gonna go meet someone for the first time, so you just know they're chilled, they're very, they're very relaxed, and you can do your vest work of those patients, exactly. But you can't obviously like when someone is anxious, you do just kind of have to accept it and go with it. That's just a part of it, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01How do you deal with the anxious ones?
SPEAKER_00Extra time, extra time, extra time, but also, for example, if I'm doing like a smile maker from someone who is like that, or even just like basic restorative treatment before I start, I'm just telling them I'm not painting painting a bad scene because that's even worse. You you make it too scary for them, but I'm just telling them, okay, this is how it's gonna feel, it's gonna take a little bit of time, it's normal. Or if they're having their teeth done, I'll tell them at the end, do not expect to like them. You're not, it's fine. It's completely okay. Out of 10 clients that I do a makeover on, I'd say two or three, love it instantly. It's actually quite rare for someone to love it instantly. So all those videos we see where they cry Yeah, that's why you don't see that's how they have the never my videos. So that so honestly, I think just if someone knows, because imagine you don't tell someone, all right, you're about to give me 5,000 pounds to change how your face looks. Imagine they don't know that the reality is it's gonna be a bit underwhelming when they finally see it. Imagine the feeling like, oh no, what have I done? Is this the right thing? But if you've told them before, they're oh well, you did say that, okay. And then and lo and behold, two, three days later on, they love it.
SPEAKER_01So you're managing their expectations for a big trip.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01If they're flying in, do you have like video calls before?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, 100%. Video calls, photos, just kind of and to be honest with you, what I do these days is if they are flying in, I try and get them to fly in, and I'll see them on a Monday for like an in-person consult and then do the tripping on a Wednesday. And most of the time they fly out, or I even tell them if you are coming, say an extra day and come back for a review afterwards.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, a few restaurant recommendations.
SPEAKER_00Restaurant recommendations, yeah. Even I don't know if you see, like if someone does fly, I like to make like a like an itinerary type thing because they're putting a lot of effort, like it's pretty mad that someone's booking flights, booking hotels, spending a lot on money for you to do their teeth. Like, you need to, I think you need to reciprocate and try and make it as comfortable and as easy for them.
SPEAKER_01Do you have cases where the patient's happy but you're not?
SPEAKER_00I would probably say out of ten cases that happens about eight times.
SPEAKER_01So you're never happy.
SPEAKER_00It's honestly the amount of times so I look at a case and go, wow, I nailed it. On the day of doing it, never. I would say when they come back for a review, I'm like, oh, actually wait, that looks pretty good. Why was I like panicking? Like the amount of times I'm like panicking over a case and it comes back, I'm like, wow, did a good job. I'm good. Yeah, no, I just looks pretty good. I think because I think when you're staring at something for so long, you lose sight of like what it used to look like and how it looks now. And that's why I even like if I think that, how's a client gonna love it straight away? They just need time to adjust to it and kind of realize. But I even do things like now that I have my photos on my camera and I have my photos on my mobile phone, and I do mobile phone ones, so that as soon as I'm finished, I send them the mobile phone ones straight away. Because I think when you've had something big done and you go home and your mum says, Looks the same.
SPEAKER_01Uh the before and afters are given to them immediately.
SPEAKER_00Doesn't it look the same? Because I think that psychology is that like when someone gets their teeth done, when they leave, what the first five people say is really important. And I because I've seen it, I've seen it, done something amazing, someone loves it, and then someone says something. So I'll take phone photos, send it to them. So if someone does turn around and say, Looks the same, like no, it doesn't. It's actually a lot better.
SPEAKER_01So I'm guessing you're a perfectionist.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, uh yeah, I yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_01How do you control that? Because there's a limit, isn't there? We all know it's not possible.
SPEAKER_00You learn to control it, I think. You learn to control it, and you learn to realise that actually if you don't achieve a perfection, it's okay. But if you're trying to achieve perfection to get better, then it's fine. So I don't I I'm at the point now where if I don't achieve perfection, I'm not like crying about it. I'll still go home and sleep okay. Uh I don't these days I very rarely go home and like worry about it. Like earlier on, I used to. I think that's how it got quite good, to be honest. Like the night before a case, I would look at someone's teeth and decide what I'm doing and to visualize what I'm gonna do. But I don't these days because it's too much.
SPEAKER_02And you've got a experience.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, it's true. You let you do learn from like people's reactions, you get to read people. I think that's probably one of the most like underrated things about a dentistry is meeting people, connecting with people. Nothing feels better than when you meet a patient and you connect with them on a level and you actually have like a nice understanding with them, but then also you just learn, you just learn from them like the psychology.
SPEAKER_01I should enjoy doing the work if if you know they're yeah. Not that they're chilled, but if you know that you're you've clicked and that sometimes you do just meet people, don't you? Where they trust you implicitly on the off. Something just clicks, and then you can just ease into it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, I think it's important for me to to only do dentistry on people that I feel like I have that with. Sometimes it is hard to do that because you don't when you do cosmetic dentistry, you don't get to meet people too much, but you get a vibe, you get a vibe straight away. Whilst one thing I miss about general practice is you build relationships with people to the point where someone comes in and they've broken a tooth, before they come in, they know what they're having. They know they're having an online, they know they're having a Cerek only. There's no there's no sometimes they just book straight in for it, and that's when the trust, the trust is uh how long is one of your like average procedures now? Like three, four hours. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I find that intense, like the thought of that even.
SPEAKER_00It is because imagine you've had a day where you've done two cases back to back from the break. And now you can have an hour's break. Sometimes you don't, but since you have an hour's break, and then you go home, you get home at seven o'clock, and then your girlfriend's out there, and it's like she wants some energy as well. But it's like the energy is gone. Exactly so you just have to kind of learn that so that that that's the difficult part. It does take out they just take a lot out of the dentistry, just about like mental drain, yeah. Like it's yeah, it's crazy. That's why you need to have rest days, and I think like something I learned about myself recently is for the first time I I I found out my limit.
SPEAKER_02What's your limit?
SPEAKER_00Seven days. So it's not, but I found it was for the first time that I could say that I burnt out, and it was I got to a point where I like I wasn't wasn't enjoying dentistry recently, yeah, in December. It was like and the timing was good because I think I finished December 19th, and then I went to Zanzibar with my family for eight nights.
SPEAKER_02Nice.
SPEAKER_00And that holiday literally saved my life. Saved my life because it got to a point where I was like just what I had done is because I was going to Zanzibar on December 19th, it meant that in December I had only had I'd lost 11 days of work. And I'm in a mindset now, especially that I'm more involved in the business, that it's not the crazy thing is, it's not even to get a certain amount of money. It's more just thinking of like the business, is the business gonna be okay? It's the overheads, it's keep it keeping it going. So in September, I set up my diary for October, November, December, and I worked every day in December. I think I've only had one day off until I left.
SPEAKER_02Well, 18 days straight.
SPEAKER_00I think I think in those days I had one one day off. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And you've realized how much rest matters.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And that I think that like that when that holiday came, I was like, wow.
SPEAKER_02This is What were the symptoms?
SPEAKER_00The symptoms are you there's n you have no patience. You have no you have no patience for nothing. So patience in the sense that like someone calls up and says, I'm not happy because of this, I've not had my retainer. I I'm saying, Oh, can you call this patient just because they're a bit I'm like, I actually don't have the mental space to deal with that right now. I haven't got the patience. Or when someone, there's some drama going on, I you don't have any mental space for it. And then when you come home, you need silence, you just need pure silence. And then dark room, like down, yeah. And when you don't get it, it's like if someone's talking to you, it's like they're shouting at you, and there's just no rest. Uh so yeah, you gotta that was the first time that's happened. So, like it did it did teach you my limits, and I think I look at it in a way it's good to know your limits.
SPEAKER_01It's like if you were training for a boxing match, they have scheduled rest and recovery and all these extra things. And if you're not looking after your brain in the same way, and even your eyes staring at that all day.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's funny you say that because like I experienced like really dry eyes, really dry. I never never had this before. Like, my eyes get you're not blinked, really dry and itchy, and I'm like, what's going on? Like, I have eye drops now. I literally use eye drops. So and and then what also happens is like I like I said to you before, my identity is not dentistry. My identity is my family, is like my life, my social life outside is like going relationship, going to cool restaurants, going on holidays, playing football, going to the gym. All of a sudden, you spend all this time not doing the things that you like and the things that make you feel good.
SPEAKER_01It's not a good just then you so what are you working hard for?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01If you're not getting the validation from being a busy dentist, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And it's like you then you ask yourself the question, is it worth it? Or why am I even why am I even doing this? But it's my own fault. No one I didn't need to do that. No one told me I needed to do that. I didn't need to do that.
SPEAKER_01Why do you think you ended up in that scenario then?
SPEAKER_00Because like I said before, I'm the sort of person if you're gonna do something, do it properly.
SPEAKER_01Throw yourself in.
SPEAKER_00Just do it properly. Like that's just how I am. I fight if I find all or nothing. All or nothing with everything in my life. So you might meet me one day and I'm jogging three, five K's a week and going to the gym three days a week and eating chicken and broccoli. I'll do that for about four months. Then I love four months of not going to gym. Um yeah, so I think I that is, I suppose it's a fault, but it's also a positive at the same time.
SPEAKER_01It is if you know how to control.
SPEAKER_00But that's it. That's just that's life. That's the journey. That's that's learning.
SPEAKER_01What do you think your ideal week would be if you could design it then?
SPEAKER_00I think you've got to you have to be realistic and say that if you are trying to build a business, then your ideal week is gonna be different.
SPEAKER_01Um an associate would have a different answer to you.
SPEAKER_00When I was an associate, I used to work Monday, Wednesday, Friday. I had Tuesday and Thursday off. Nice. It's the best life ever. But I'll tell you, just like these days, sometimes I have moments where I'm like not feeling good about what I'm doing. Um I wouldn't call it anxiety, but like, I'm like, oh, is that right? Am I happy doing this? When I was an associate working three days a week, earning very good money, I had the same bad feeling, I'm not achieving enough. I'm not doing enough. Why am why am I working for someone? What am I doing in life? So you start to realize whatever you do, you're gonna guilt for having the two days off or not really. No, it wasn't guilt. It was more just the fact that, like, how am I by working three days a week, how am I advancing in life? So how am I how am I there's not enough where's the challenge? Where's the challenge? So I remember like I remember sitting in bed and thinking like I do I sound like you plateaued. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So you need you need you need things to like chop and change it a little sometimes.
SPEAKER_01Do you ever feel out of your depth now?
SPEAKER_00Or is it more the the workload than the So I say I would say like recently, um, so I mentioned before like my my role has slightly changed. So I used to be an associate, now I'm in the business, and being in the business, you have other duties, and one of those duties is you have shareholders' meetings, and when you have those shareholders' meetings, or in those meetings with people who are from who aren't dentists, they're sure so we're all shareholders, they're non-clinical, and they are from a complete different background. And when they're sat there talking about pure numbers and just like looking at a spreadsheet like they're reading like an alphabet, and I'm like, it's just going straight over my head. But at the same time, even though I'm completely out of my depth, I'm learning I'm fine with that. I don't feel like I have to like that's a different language, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01They don't know yours.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly, exactly. So I don't feel like in those situations, I don't feel like even though I feel like I'm out of my depth in the finance part of it, I don't feel like I'm in the wrong place, or I don't feel like I need to speak to fill space. I'm happy to sit there and listen and just understand like what we're talking about.
SPEAKER_01And um that's how you learn, isn't it? Being put into scenarios that you haven't been before.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's just it's different, isn't it? It's a variation.
SPEAKER_01You've mentioned a few little things, Josh, but how would you say you look after yourself, like mind, body, soul?
SPEAKER_00For me, I think like eating healthy, exercising, walking, using the sauna. I love using the sauna, I I love like contrast therapy, like it gives me a little buzz. Or like an ice bath, but just like sauna, cold shower, going out for like long walks, like trying out a new coffee shop. It's basic stuff really. Yeah, they see my n see my niece and nephews. Oh nephew nieces and nephew, like that, I'd say like in my life now, that's probably the one thing that not one thing, but it's one thing that can give me a life. A big joy. A lot of joy, yeah.
SPEAKER_01You only have to listen to a child for half an hour and you're no one, aren't you? It's humbling.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Have you had any setbacks so far?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I would say my life, probably up until two years ago, was like going very well and very like had a good life. Like I didn't have any setbacks up until that point. Working as an associate, doing three days, earning good money. And then unfortunately, two years ago, my sister passed away. And that kind of was the first time that it was like a serious setback. And like as I said before, like I get a lot of my like core happiness and confidence from my family. So then you just go through a whole journey from from that point, and it's not it's it's not it's just one of those things I think since then that's when stuff's kind of changed, and then that's kind of timed in with the fact that that happened, and then I kind of changed role in business, and now I'm just trying to find my feet and get to like an easy part again. But I think one thing you realise is that if someone hasn't experienced that that level of loss or like heartbreak, then you haven't experienced life. Because the right reality is that it is a part of life, and you you ask yourself the question that if you want to have like good times in life and good relations with people, you have to accept the opportunity.
SPEAKER_01The cost of loving someone is the grief, isn't it? Yeah, that's huge though. That's a a big thing, especially when it's I mean, everybody anyone passing away is huge, but when it's unexpected and she was so young.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think yeah, it was all it it was it's just strange to be honest when you when you think back. Like it was like a random like summer's day, and it was a day that my parents met my girlfriend's parents for the first time.
SPEAKER_02Really?
SPEAKER_00And um I didn't invite her because I was just like nervous. Oh like I just hadn't thought to invite her, and then she messaged on the group saying, Oh, you didn't invite me, but like tongue in cheek, she didn't care because she was going to like a podcast. Uh and then yeah, that night she went to a podcast, and then she it's like half ten, I was at home with my parents, and she rang saying, My mum, she ran my dad first, he was asleep, then my mum, and she said, uh just got home, like my chest is hurting. Something doesn't feel right. And I was like, I I grabbed the phone off my mum, I said, Mom, like give me the phone. I said, Oh, what were you saying? She went, Oh. And to me, it just sounded like anxiety. Sounded like anxiety to me. So I said, Look, just get off the phone and call 999 now, because it's just better, it's better to be safe. She was like, Okay, and then she got off the phone, and then like 10 minutes later she called back saying, Mom, can you just come? So I thought, okay, I just my dad was asleep, so I sent my mum in a taxi over to her flat, which was like 45 minutes away. And then when my mum got there, my mum couldn't there was an ambulance outside and my mum couldn't get in. And then when my mum finally got upstairs, like the ambulance was there doing CPR on my sister. And then my mum rang me and told me, and I was just like, You just go numb. It's like you just like go go completely numb. And then from that point on it was just like a nightmare. But it's like I say, it's just one of those things that you can't really you're gonna do.
SPEAKER_01It's obviously gonna have changed you as a person. How do you think it has?
SPEAKER_00No, you realise that tomorrow really isn't promised. You could be here today and gone tomorrow. So, like all of a sudden you realize all those little shitty things that you you cry and moan about. Does it matter?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Does it really matter? You really do have to just enjoy the day that you're in and just be around people that's time that you love and you you enjoy spending time with. But you don't know when it's gonna end. One thing about my sister is like what is just amazing about her is that she lived that life. She was like, she just think of she just didn't give a shit. She didn't care about calories, she didn't care about she didn't she didn't care.
SPEAKER_01The best thing you can do is is live her life.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. I and I I like I'm not saying that you should go out and get drunk three, four nights a week. No, it's different for everyone. Like if I did that, I would end up feeling shit. Um, but it's just it was her attitude that she actually did live like she could go. She actually did.
SPEAKER_02She lived bold.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, she that that weekend, she was out Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. Just literally just joined Home House, Home House, like the members club. Oh yeah. She was there on Friday, there on Saturday. On the Saturday when she was there, I walked past and I thought, I wonder if she's in. So I called her. I said, she wish an answer. Got home an hour later. She went, hello? I was like, Where are you? So I just talk past home house. And she went, Oh, I'm here, but I was on a date. I was like, it's too late now. I'm gone. I'm gone now. I'm not coming back now.
SPEAKER_02She's living the life.
SPEAKER_00She was living the life. So yeah, I think it's tough. It is tough. Like it's I think that's also like I was talking before about how I burnt out. The other side of that is work is an escape. It's not so much now, but in the early days, work was an escape. Because if when I chucked myself into work and didn't have to really think about anything.
SPEAKER_01I can relate to that. I think sometimes it's a double-edged sword, but if life outside of dentistry is heavy or you've got like chaos, because there is a pressure there, it's almost a positive in a weird way. It's like there's a constant there every day. And you cross that threshold and put your uniform on and you put your loops on, and especially when you're in a three, four-hour procedure, you're almost meditative, or you can't really think about too much more.
SPEAKER_00Well, do you know what? It's something to put your attention to. Yeah. But one thing I will say is like it's really interesting because like now, now that I'm going through it, like anyone who's going through it, I would always love to talk to because you do go through a journey like the early days. I've never had anxiety before, but actually for the first time, like I got severe health anxiety. I've never been to the hospital, but six months after that, I was in the hospital three times. Ended up having a CT angiogram of my own heart. She had a heart attack. There was no history of any heart issues with her. We do have history in our family. My granddad died of a heart attack, my grandma died of a heart attack, my uncle died of a heart attack. So I went through some serious health anxiety. I used to have an aura ring, and when my heart used to go up to like 150, I'm like, oh now I'm having a heart attack. But just in the middle of the day. Just in the middle of the day. It happened loads. So only until I had that CT angiogram, and they told me, look, there's nothing in your arteries, did I start to chill out a little bit. But there was one, there's one time I was doing a case. So this is what I'm saying. Like, even though it takes your mind off it, I was doing a case, and whilst I'm doing the case, my eyes go blurry, and I'm thinking, strange. And my heart starts to erase. Oh shit, what's going on? Is something happening to me? And I had a panic. Like, I don't, I'm the sort of person that'll never put a name to anything. I'm only saying it so people can understand what I'm saying. But when I look at it, the reality is during that case, I was having what you'd call a panic attack. I thought something was happening to me. And what did I do? Nothing. I just carried out. The amazing thing is the case was was fine. Probably really great. It was fine. Um, but like that's that's the kind of like anxious state you're in to begin with. And as time goes on, you realise, wait, I am okay. And you start to accept it a little bit more. From day one, I always accepted it. I always said this happened. In my family, people didn't have that. My mom never had that. She was she was always asking why, why, why. But I always accepted it from day one. But we're we're lucky because like in my family, we have a lot of cousins, and my my uncles, my aunties, my cousins were like so supportive for that for for that first year. We saw them all the time, like they were there for us, and you really need that support.
SPEAKER_01Your mum and dad's grandchildren think worse when little ones come into their way.
SPEAKER_00Because they're just so ignorantly hap naively happy in their world, is l all just sunshine and rainbows. And even though they go through stuff, it's even sad to see them initially go through stuff, but really day in, day out, they're fine. They're fine, they're like laughing. So, like, especially for my parents, my parents are both retired. And my middle sister, she was like, My dad said, I felt like with you and your older sister, you were fine, you were kind of set.
SPEAKER_02You the little one.
SPEAKER_00And the little one. Harsh was the middle one. My oldest one is the oldest one is married and has kids. Uh so Harsha was single. My dad had just helped her buy her flat in London. She'd literally just bought it, and he was like, even now, he battles like saying, I don't really feel like I have a purpose anymore because you are okay, your older older one's okay, but I was looking after her. So, like that's the other side of it is trying to support your parents. I'm trying to live my life, support myself, but support my parents, which is tough. Still trying to figure, figure it out, really.
SPEAKER_01But you've just been on holiday with them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So those trips have to uh continue and so much more precious even now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they're they're that you know what the crazy thing is, like in that like anxious state I was telling you about, I remember when we booked the holiday, things that go through your mind are like, is dad gonna make it? That's like that's that's that's the state that you get to. It's like, are we actually gonna be okay? Like, is something gonna happen to us before before we even get to that holiday? Like, I have kind of come out of that now, and I am more of more of the minder. What happens happens, but it's hard, it's hard, it's it changes you.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's just patterns, isn't it? Yeah. Got a brain, you see everything's absolutely fine, never think and something comes out of the blue, you're gonna anyone would, I think. Do you think it's changed how you work? Not really.
SPEAKER_00No, it hasn't.
SPEAKER_01Because it's because work's so separate for you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I would say like yeah, I would say it hasn't changed. I'd say if anything, like I said before, like I get a rush, I get a good feeling out of doing good work and getting better. So like having that probably in the long run's been really good for me, because it's given me some release. So I'd say like, before seeing your family, before seeing my family, doing socials was the best thing ever. Unfortunately, in that first few months, or even a year or two afterwards, when I'm with my family, you don't have that same feeling anymore. So that safe space all of a sudden becomes actually a sad space. Yeah. Because there's that constant reminder, and it's that you're sat there and you you might be okay, but then you look up and like dad's crying, or mom's crying, or now my sister's crying. So it it probably that the good thing about work, it has probably been that constant of where I can go and just kind of switch off and get some It's just you and a and a task. Yeah, and get some kind of good feeling from it. But it hasn't, like I said, it hasn't kind of made me think, all right, forget work, let me go and like retire and live in Bali and do nothing. It hasn't done that.
SPEAKER_01Have you learned anything about yourself through it?
SPEAKER_00No, I don't know actually. I wouldn't I wouldn't say I don't feel like I've changed that much. I think it's made me, yeah, it's maybe like look at stuff as a different way, but I think just before that, like moving to London, I went and the journey of like graduating and then since moving to London I've matured in my own way anyway. I have realized that like my value isn't what car I drive or like what watch or what watch I have. So I feel like I've already gone through a journey of really understanding who I am and feeling confident in myself, and for that reason I don't really feel like it's changed me that much.
SPEAKER_01Don't you think it's strange how at the beginning it's all you can think about maybe not everything you can think about when you can't have something and then when you can afford it, you almost don't want anything.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. But I think it's like I think it's sometimes you just look at yourself and you think, why did I feel like that when I had that? Like, for example, like I remember like I bought a watch, I bought like a nice expensive watch, and I remember the feeling of putting it on. The second I put it on, I felt good. I'm like, how can I attach that to myself? That's crazy that that was ever a thing. But it's fine, it's life. Like you it's you're young, it's you know in that moment, it was nice, and that's what you know.
SPEAKER_01We work really hard for something, you got it, get some kind of uh gratification from it.
SPEAKER_00But then I think what I've realized actually is like confidence or feeling good is a mixture of just doing good things every day, doing what you you told yourself you would do. So if you make yourself a promise, I'm gonna go to the gym tomorrow, I'm gonna go five times this week, and you do it, you feel good. That's that's how I how I kind of feel like that's kind of made me confident. I've done what I've said I'm gonna do.
SPEAKER_01I've been thinking recently when I'm in the gym, I feel prouder when I'm in the gym than I do at work.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, there you go. That's good. That's good, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01I don't know why.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. That's how you want it to be. This is what I'm saying, like earlier on when you said, Oh, like you and Harrods, I just no, this doesn't Yeah, and you wouldn't and you wouldn't want someone to think either.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Make makes you a bit cringy.
SPEAKER_00It does. And like I think like fair enough, if that if that makes someone feel a certain way, then then kind of agree. But like for me, it's not you shouldn't attach material things to your worth. That's the w the last thing you should do. I've done that before, don't get me wrong, but like now in like my like adult state and uh we all like a nice fragrance. Yeah, okay. A food.
SPEAKER_01First thing I said when Josh sat down is someone smells nice. It's Josh. What is it?
SPEAKER_00Actually, do you know what we should uh it's um black tea centric molecules.
SPEAKER_01I didn't think you were gonna say that.
SPEAKER_00No, well you should you should add like a little special segment when you go into someone's flat and like you look at their fragrance selection. Well, like you look in their fridge.
SPEAKER_01I just love fragrance. I would love to see in front of I think you could tell a lot looking in someone's fridge.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, literally. Fridge, real pantry, houses, yeah. Go in their bathroom, look in the corners.
SPEAKER_01But if I was gonna choose someone to look after my teeth or like a surgeon or something, I'd go in there. I'd be picking the most immaculate surroundings and fridge.
SPEAKER_00Do you know what though? No, uh let me just say something about that. Let's say like you're either type A or type B. Yes, that's one of my questions. Okay, so Josh at work is type A. When I go to work, I get to work early. If I've got a patient at 9, I'm there at 8.30, 840 latest. If I get there at 845, I'm not happy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00To the point where I'd even say, like, I'm not taking them in yet and just need time to like settle.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so you don't like a rush in the morning.
SPEAKER_00I hate a rush in the morning. I'm very organized at work. I have everything in a certain way. Josh at home, type B, I don't my when my clothes come off, they they go on the floor. They're off like a cow's bat. Or like when I get out of bed, like, yeah, look, I've read that book, make your bed. Just you're supposed to make your bed in the morning and set you for a good day. I don't remember that.
SPEAKER_01So you go against that saying that how you do anything is how you do everything. Yeah. Definitely not.
SPEAKER_00It isn't true. It actually isn't like I would I'm not, by the way, I'm clean. I'm not dirty, but I'm messy. Not like a life of grime in there. No, no, no, no. I think probably like I have to give credit to my girlfriend, actually. She's she's interestingly, she's Taipei at home, but she's Taipei at like work. That's really interesting. It is interesting. I probably can't judge that yet because she's at uni.
SPEAKER_01So, like so she's training to be a dentist.
SPEAKER_00She trains to be a dentist, yeah. So let's see like when she graduates. But I think because she is Taipei at home, it works very well for me, not for her.
SPEAKER_01What advice have you given her as she's been going through?
SPEAKER_00Just she has like classmates and course mates who are like at uni, but like go into this course, go into that course, go into this conference. Be I'm like, ignore that. It's all noise. You're at uni, just enjoy your life. Yes. Get your get your degree. When your degree starts, just find what you enjoy doing. Like, forget all this, like trying to get an Instagram following before you've started.
SPEAKER_01Imagine going and learning about like a translucent incisable edge and you've still not done VT.
SPEAKER_00But the the the fun the thing is, the reality is at that point you're not taking that in. And it's actually not suitable to take that in at that point. Yeah. Because what happens is you when you do graduate, you've got ideas of doing the yeah, these translucent composites, and really you should be thinking about actually doing a composite filling that doesn't knock someone up without hurting foundations on it. Yeah, so I think like these days a lot of people like rush into all like the sexy stuff too much, don't they?
SPEAKER_01Did you always think you're gonna be cosmetic when you're at dental school?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Did you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I did.
SPEAKER_01From day one.
SPEAKER_00It wasn't cosmetic, it wasn't like cosmetic, it was composite because of the artistry involved. Okay. Because like the the the hand-making essence of it. It was all it was always composite. Like when we did your like class four composite, that's what I loved doing. That was my thing. I was like, I found exciting. Um, but also my sister, she's a dentist, and she she used to do fix at the time, six months smile, bit of a misalign and composite. Um, and she used to show me her cases, like her like cosmetic cases. And I thought that's really cool. It's like that's quite satisfying. And that's how I always knew I was gonna get into that, but I didn't get into it straight away. I started off doing general dentistry, built a portfolio, went on loads of courses, went on like a lot of like full math courses, not full math rehabs, but looking at Like the t you know, like a bit more lateral. Yeah, so like Dawson Academy, uh another like full mouth course, composite courses, enlay courses.
SPEAKER_01Who was the composite um anatomy course you once said to me you have to go on it?
SPEAKER_00So his name's Janos Mako. Janos Mako and he's a technician. And uh when I did it, it was a course that I went on in d in Budapest, super cheap three-day course. He doesn't speak English, so he has like a translator on the side, and you just spend three days, you start off by drawing teeth, carving teeth, building, and then you start building teeth like without clay and stuff. And obviously, like being and during during like dentistry, it was fun. It was satisfying.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it sounds fun. Were you that person at dental school?
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_01Would people predict you're gonna be really good?
SPEAKER_00I think as I said before, like A levels, I knuckled down so hard, I didn't have any social life, didn't go out. People were like going to house parties, and so when I went to uni, I went crazy. I went crazy at uni. I was out. This is the like it's a shame that uni these days they don't do this, but these days no one goes out. We used to go out six, seven days a week. Like I used to see you out every night at the uni.
SPEAKER_01I failed first year.
SPEAKER_00Did you? Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that's the way to do it. I feel like I feel I think life's like a series of stages, and I think like there's a rite of passage for each part of life, and I think if you miss a part.
SPEAKER_01I agree. Like there's chapters for knuckling down and being serious, and it doesn't mean you're gonna be any less of a professional when you get to that point. Like, you're 18. I was shattered when I went to uni. Same kind of thing. I had to really work hard. I don't think I've ever worked as hard as for my A levels.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Same house sitting for this lady, and um, they were away in Canada for six months. Um, so there was no heating. I had like a camp stove for cattle, and I'd genuinely be in there doing past papers on repeat for 15 hours a day. Oh, wow. And just keep doing them until I got 100%. That's how I I did my A levels. That's crazy. And I get to dental school and say, Where's the past papers? And they just look for you, and you know, yeah. Okay, I my my tactics out the window now.
SPEAKER_00What were you like in school? Did you did you were you were you similar at dental school? Studied hard?
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_00No, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I struggled if I'm honest. I think I had too much going on all at once. I think I was probably needed to grow up a lot. I was tired. I had like tonsillitis five times in the first few months because I'd probably push myself too much and then celebrated after A levels. But then you you know, you're in a flat on you, new people. I think just everything's all at once. And dentistry is a brand new subject. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00So do you look at uni as a positive in a positive in a positive light?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I had fun, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I think of it positively because I think I got everything out of it I possibly could for a uni experience and a dental degree.
SPEAKER_00And I feel like Sheffield was amazing. Like Sheffield, you really had that like campus feeling.
SPEAKER_01It's definitely one of the kind, I think, in a way. Like I'm from Sheffield, so I went out in Sheffield. That's probably another reason I struggled a bit, because all my friends were still there who didn't go to uni. Yeah. We went out in Sheffield Town, but then when you're at uni in Sheffield, no one goes into Sheffield.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's all at uni. It's a different world, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I used to think that was really sad before I got there, and then I'm like, It's the best thing ever. Oh, octagen's amazing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you go into a night out and you know everyone. It's like, oh hello, hello, hello.
SPEAKER_01Like every single person in there, you know them for five years. It was special. And you're still friends, got a really good group of them from uni and more from London.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think it's kind of morphed. I think like with life, what you realise is that like your your immediate social circle does shrink because everyone gets a little bit less time. It's harder to like keep up with each other, but we all keep in touch and we still have like a core group, and we still go on holiday. Every year we have like a lad's holiday, like it's just like something you have to have in the diary now.
SPEAKER_01Um, so yeah, that's important, especially with boys.
SPEAKER_00I think these days it is really important to connect with people, isn't it? It's really important to have that like different and like when you're in a boy group, like you have that like that chat, just like the banter, you just you need that silliness, you need a break sometimes from being paying the bills and working and like progressing. Because as soon as you're in that group, that same group, it just changes. Like it's like you're back at uni again.
SPEAKER_01Bring you down a peg or two again. Do you think you'd still do dentistry, Josh, if you won the lottery?
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_01No. Straight answer. No not one little bit. You just said you'd m you don't know what to do on a day off.
SPEAKER_00No, but I would if I won the lottery, I wouldn't stop working.
SPEAKER_01But you do something different.
SPEAKER_00I think I would do I would think of I always think of like cool business ideas. Oh, it wouldn't be cool to do this, or they don't have this, like they should there should be that. If I had a serious bag of money, well I actually if I lost it, it wouldn't really matter. If I did like five business things and only one made it, that'd be quite satisfying. But what I wouldn't do is sit in a room and just do like one thing for the whole time. I'd prefer to work in like a collaborative team, think of cool ideas, bring them to life. Yeah, not in the world. Yeah, it's just like just make something useful that someone doesn't do. Um, I think like what's really satisfying is being creative and thinking of an idea, implementing it, and it and it happened.
SPEAKER_01It just sounds like you'd be like an entrepreneur if you weren't an artist.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think I think that's that's part of the reason why I did transition from being an associate to like being involved in the business is because I wanted that side. I always had a like, oh let's try this or let's try that, and I didn't have like something to put it into. Um so no, I wouldn't I wouldn't be there doing like having my hands wet there and there out.
SPEAKER_01All the CGUC stuff, and you've got millions in the bank. Let's round it up so you can go and watch the match. What advice do you wish you'd been given if you went back to day one?
SPEAKER_00I think a lesson that I learned pretty early and is not to compare yourself to other people. I'll never forget, like, I think we're probably two years out of uni, and one of my friends said to me, Oh, I earn I earned this this month, this month, and it was maybe like a third more than what I earned, and I felt really bad. I felt like I had a bad feeling inside of me. And then I'm the sort of person I learn from if I get burnt, I learn from it. I thought, wait a second, why have I just got like a serious bad feeling just because he's earned more money? What has that got to do with me? That's him, and it just tweaked from that point on. I do not compare myself to know, I compare myself to myself. So that's my one piece of advice is just stay in your own lane. That's such a good one.
SPEAKER_01No one said that yet.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because it is, it can be it can be so painful when you continue to compare yourself to other people, especially in this day and age where people are out there bragging, like chucking stuff on social media.
SPEAKER_01I was gonna say about Instagram.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, where a lot of it is not even true. You need to have thick skin and just just ignore it.
SPEAKER_01I'm glad it wasn't there, this whole Instagram dental world when we were training.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, because it might change the way you kind of and maybe you maybe for that reason you can't blame these young uniscope.
SPEAKER_01That's true. If we weren't we never saw this like amazing what we were just still putting amalgams in and learning about pictures. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Our concern back in the day was are we gonna go to corp tonight or we're gonna go to the union? I feel like no, I wasn't either. I hated it. What was what was the drink? I feel like there was a certain like vodka or whatever it was. No, I I hated corp. It was sticky and nasty. It was it was nasty. It was copulation on the name, do you remember that?
SPEAKER_01Copulation in the union.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Remember that?
SPEAKER_01Um is that Tuesday?
SPEAKER_00I'm sure Tuesday was Tuesday Club. Or and then Wednesday was sports day, raw. And then Thursday was You to go to embrace on a Thursday, I think.
SPEAKER_01Oh no, or jump at um plug.
SPEAKER_00Okay, never did that. I think I had Thursday off. Friday was space. Space.
SPEAKER_01I used to love space.
SPEAKER_00That was like the dental gathering. Every day this winter space.
SPEAKER_01If I could go back and have one of those nights out in uh 2012 get up for 15 pounds again for the whole night.
SPEAKER_00I feel like those things are always like great ideas, but if you go and do it, like, oh, it's just horrible.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we don't really hate it. Pre-drinking no, one or two nowadays. I'm an old lady. Right, Joss, we'll leave you to the match. Thank you so much for being here. Appreciate your time. Enjoyed it.