Sarina Kiani

Meet Sarina. A tenacious beauty who studied dentistry as a post grad.
We chat about her unqiue path into the profession, the toxic side of the industry, wellness and the importance of advocating for yourself.
@drsarinakiani

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I'm Serena Chiani and this is Neutral Zone.

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Hi Serena. Hi Fran. Thanks for coming to Neutral Zone today. Thanks for having me. Let's dive straight in as we always do. How much of your identity do you think is tied to dentistry?

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Good question. I think most of it. If you told me tomorrow that the GDC was going to take my license away and I couldn't practice as a dentist anymore, I think that I would fall into a little bit of a depression, which isn't healthy, but then I think with like most high-achieving individuals who do dentistry and and all those types of careers, you are inclined to see your identity related to your job. So if you're not you know as successful, you might not feel too good about yourself. It's not the healthiest way to be, but it is the reality. I think that I wish I it wasn't the case, but it is so.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

You had a little bit of a longer journey to get there as well, didn't you? So I suppose it was a long time coming.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Yeah, yeah, it was it was a long journey. Um I started as a graduate entry at King's. Before that, I was a dental rep for GSK, which is now Halion. So a lot of the journey was, you know, tough but unexpected. When I was a GSK rep, I would go and speak to dentists, take them for lunch and learns, and that's where it sparked that interest in dentistry. I kind of looked at it as, oh, this is something that I could do with my life and have a bit of a career change. I was a bit older than the rest of the students, and so it was a little bit tough. I didn't even get in the first time that I that I had applied. I had to go and speak to the head of admissions to basically present my case for all the reasons I thought I deserved at least an interview, and then they agreed, and I had I think it was like 12 mini stations, 12 interviews with different people with different topics, and that's how I got in. It was more of a case of they hadn't looked at my application because they get so many applications, and that's how I got in. And when I got in, I was like, oh my god, this is amazing! You know, it's gonna be so easy, and it was like the toughest thing I'd ever done in my life, which was which was a challenge, and then COVID hit um in year four. So I wasn't in the clinic anymore, we weren't allowed to come to university, and I was starting to get a bit bored. I couldn't do all of these like online tutorials, I couldn't learn that way, and so I took a job at Chelsea and my uh Chelsea Dental Clinic working as a dental nurse while the university was closed because I'm a practical learner and I was like, okay, this is gonna help me. I'm gonna watch the dentists and then I'm gonna learn. I'd be I'd be in the room with them and I'd be writing notes. I'm supposed to be nursing, mind you. I'd be writing notes and on what they're doing. Um, and then eventually I graduated not that long ago, 2022. So yeah, it was a bit of a bit of a journey, lots of ups and downs, but I made it.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

I I love how much initiative you've got on each step there, though. Taking yourself to show your the admissions teacher and being like, look, here I am, yeah, give me an interview is is amazing.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

Yeah, it wasn't not too, I don't want people watching this to think that there's an easy way into things. There's there's by no means am I saying you just need to go and speak to people and you'll get your way. That's not what I'm saying at all. All I was saying is that when I looked online on the website at the criteria for getting at least an interview, I was hitting all those, all those like necessary marks, UK cat, um, experience, interest, all these things. And I just thought that wow, here I am. I'm so passionate about this. I'm choosing to do this now, very late in my life. So that's another reason why a lot of people might look at that and think, okay, they actually really want to do this. Sometimes when you come out of school and you might do, I don't know, dentistry, medicine, sometimes a lot of pressure can come from family members. The student might not necessarily want to do that degree themselves, or they might drop out. It's not even a case of can you do it because everyone has good grades, it's more now does this person actually want to be a dentist? We're seeing so many dentists graduate and not even do dentistry. So I understand why the universities are taking it more seriously because they want people who are going to be able to be dentists and give back to society and the UK if you're studying here. So I just wanted to show that that I was one of those people. So I thought, you know what, there's so many applications. I bet mine wasn't even read. And that was the case because it's just difficult to read everyone's applications. And when I showed that I was gonna fight for it, I think they were like, okay, let's just give her an interview. And I said in in that meeting, I said, look, if I don't get through the interview and I don't they don't accept me, I will never bother you again because it just means that I'm not the right fit, and that's fine, but I'll never know if I'm not the right fit if I don't get an interview. So that was more the conversation that I had, but going in there armed with like points as to you know, X, Y, and Z, like experience, obviously the grades, all these things as to why I think I'd be a good good fit for the university.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

I'd be asking, how old were you then when you went to the admissions tutor?

SPEAKER_00 6:01

It's a good question. Uh I think I was around 23, 24. Yeah. So it's that 31 now.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

It's that tiny, not tiny difference, but a 23 or 24-year-old is slightly different to a 17-year-old, aren't they? Definitely. And you had that bit of life experience and an insight into the industry. You're probably more certain than any 17-year-old.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

Definitely. I think I respect it when you come straight out of school and you do a degree like dentistry, which is really difficult, and you have to get your mature hat on really quickly in life, and you don't get to have, you know, as much fun, maybe as other students doing um less difficult degrees, maybe, or less less taxing degrees, or less degrees where they're seeing patients the next day, so they can't really come in, hung over all these things. I think at that age, uh, I was a lot more confident in knowing this is what I wanted to do, here are the reasons, but also I had the life experience to know it wasn't, I wasn't I romanticizing dentistry, being a rep at GSK, speaking to dentists, going to dental practices all day, every day was my job, and so I saw it for what it was, and the reality, and there are things that are not that great about dentistry that are difficult, but I saw those things I wanted to choose to do the degree because I wanted to do the job, and I think that's what they saw, but also at that age, it gives you the confidence to know what you want. I think, like you said, as a 17-year-old, you you might not really have that confidence in yourself to sit in front of someone who you might think is is higher than you, or um, you know, admissions tutor. Why would they ever want to sit with me and listen to me? Like they might not email someone like that because they're afraid to, because there's that hierarchy in your head. You're always taught. Of course, you should respect everybody, but that's everybody. It doesn't matter how big their title is, you should never be afraid to relate to them or to be yourself and be confident in who you are and what you bring to the table, which is what I would tell every student now, or everyone who, or myself, even when I was 17, I would try and remind myself that I shouldn't be afraid of people in high positions, that at the end of the day they're human beings, they go home, they have a family, they have children, they might have children my age, and so don't be afraid to to relate to them because it might open doors for you that you would have never had the opportunity to to be if you went in those spaces or had the confidence to speak to those people. 100%.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

Same with with everybody that you come across in your career, it's it's easy to be feel a little bit insecure or younger or junior to them, but they are just people.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Yeah. Yeah. That's honestly, it makes such a difference. I even saw it at university as a graduate. A lot of the students that were younger would be afraid to even talk to the tutors. And I think that if you knew that barrier wasn't there, or if you removed that barrier in your head, you would have a much better experience because if you felt a lot more confident talking to them or asking them questions or or you know getting their help on certain topics, then you're opening that line of communication and you learn so much more from those people if you actually saw it that way. And a lot of the times people like that want to teach you. Even I can give you an example. If you're not even not at university and you're working, but you've say you've just graduated and you're in your foundation year, you might be scared to go up to the senior dentist in the clinic and ask them about case because you think, oh, why would they be interested? They most likely nine out of ten times, they actually want to teach you, they want to tell you what they know, and then you're opening up that line in communication where you're learning, you're benefiting benefiting from that relationship, or because you once scared to talk to them. So I encourage everyone to think that way because it it helps like kind of get rid of those blocks that you can.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

We can all learn something from each other, no matter if you're at the very, very start starting out as a student, or even at the top retiring, like yeah, even the way you might greet a patient or the little things, or there's so many nuance to it. It's not just skill and an experience.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Yeah. I mean, I'm not I'm not saying to have, you know, to be arrogant and think you know better than everyone. That's really dangerous. I think you should know your limitations, but not be afraid to, you know, almost have an open heart and open mind and know that they're human beings. I can learn a lot from them. Um, I think it's also an ego thing, yeah, not to be worried or be afraid to make mistakes, but know what your like limitations are uh in your you know year of of work.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Um just further down the path. Yeah, no greater acumen. They're just further down the path that you're starting at the beginning of. Exactly. How did you find dental school as a whole, Serena? Uh it had his ups and downs.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

I thought you said hell then. No. Well, no. Uh it had his ups and downs. I think King's is an incredible university because you're being taught by the people who write those books. And there's no better environment than that because you can question them on that and they'll they'll know it inside and out. I think there's one area of negativity that needs to be addressed. I don't think it's just King's. I think that speaking to other dental students, it might be happening in other universities as well. There is this toxic relationship that we seem to have with the rest of the members of staff that might not speak to students in the most respectful manner. I'll give my own examples. There were multiple occasions where, for example, I'll I don't know, I'd be walking around the clinic floor and I might be walking the wrong way, and I would get screamed at by a member of staff, and I didn't know I was work walking around the wrong way. I think that in that interaction that made me feel very degraded, if they had just told me in a normal manner that I was walking the wrong way, I would never do it again. I think I don't know what it is about dental school, but sometimes the staff can speak to you in maybe not the nicest way, and it makes you feel really like taken aback, especially as a graduate. I you know, two weeks ago I was working in GSK and I was working with colleagues the same age, so I don't know why I'm being spoken to like this. It had I had that in my head and would make me quite upset. And it was difficult because I was like, I'm really just here to learn, and this whole like air of hierarchy or ego is making me really uncomfortable. It wasn't the entire time, and it wasn't everyone, and there were some incredible tutors and incredible members of staff who really helped everybody there, and it and it was uh an amazing place to be, but I do think there is something to be addressed with that toxic type of relationship that we have with some members of the streets.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

It's that environment and the the atmosphere, isn't it? Sometimes you're you're trying to you might be doing a procedure for the first time, and I'm laughing to myself because I can imagine remember one scenario where on a restorative clinic, two of the choosers have just had a had to be taken apart. And who knows what's it definitely there's definitely an ego side to it, but you're trying, you know, nervous already, it might be the first time you've ever given an injection to a real patient or you know, first ever root canal or something. And you've got this atmosphere where you already feel like you're about to be told off for walking around the wrong way. You all you're thinking is I've got to do this for the first time today, not I'm walking around and anti-clockwise or I know I completely agree with you. I think there's maybe an emphasis or just any opportunity it felt like to to keep you back or down a bit. I definitely think lots of people can relate to that.

unknown 14:33

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

I uh I spoke about this on social media and someone commented saying, Well, actually, what they're doing is preparing you for the real world so that you have tougher skin to deal with maybe certain ways that other members of staff might talk to you in the real world or patients. And to that, I say, in the real world, no one should talk to you like that either. It's not a given that people talk to you with disrespect or in a way that makes you feel degraded. At the end of the day, especially at university, you're there to learn. So all of the rest of it is irrelevant and not necessary. Um if you feel like you can't go up to someone, a tutor or a member of staff and ask them a question that's gonna help you learn, then that's not a good environment to be in. That's not normal and that's not healthy, and we shouldn't normalize that, to be honest. And you shouldn't say things like that, that is what it's gonna be like in practice. No, I I my colleagues don't talk to me like that, like never, even from the beginning, not now. Nobody should talk to each other like that. So that's that was funny to read as well.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

And are they the people you learn the most from? The ones that's created.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

Are you are you growing? Do you feel like you get better in that environment? I certainly don't. I think the the most I've ever learned is in an environment where I felt like I can go up to my colleagues or my tutors or whoever it might be and and ask them questions and not feel judged, not feel embarrassed, and um feel like I actually learned something from them rather than I'm too nervous to ask. If you feel like you're too nervous to ask, you're gonna make more mistakes because you don't know what you're doing wrong or how to improve it.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

It's actually really dangerous. Yeah. There's that famous, I don't know if this is true and someone can correct us in the notes, but this famous kind of scenario, apparently in medicine, where the reason they put an arrow on the side that they're working on before an operation is because something along the lines of in an operation the wrong kidney was removed and the patient passed away. But in that room, the only person who realized the error was someone very junior and they were too scared to put their hand up. And I think, and I hope that I don't hope it's true, I hope I'm recalling it correctly, but that just says everything, doesn't it? If you can't put your hand up when in any scenario, like everybody's brain in there is tired, or maybe somebody's noticed something else, everyone should be working for the collective good rather than their egos. Or I yeah, shush you, you're the student in the corner kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Yeah. Yeah, because even in that scenario, that that junior saying that doesn't now mean that that junior knows more than the other surgeons there. It it just eliminates a place, isn't it? It's just a scenario.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

Yes. Yes, we've all been there. Any times in dental school where you thought you might step back from it when it was tough? Or you just you seem quite determined to just no.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

At that time, I was like, this is a degree I've chosen to do quite late. There's no messing about, I need to get this done. I had this era of like, I need to get this done. Um, there were definitely times I in exams that I did that I was like, wow, I this is tough. But I had in mind that I need to, this isn't even the beginning. I just feel a bit like rushed in my head. I guess there was, I don't know, as a female at that age, I was like, I haven't even started my career, then I want to get, you know, married and have children, all these things. I need to get a move on. And I think I still feel that way now. And so it was like tunnel vision, you need to get these exams done, need to start work, do finish my foundation degree, get my private job, do this, do that. So a lot of goals were ahead of me in my mind that had were so past even doing the degree that it was never like a choice in my head not to do it.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

Yeah, that's and when you're saying that, I'm just thinking none of those things ever crossed my mind. And I went straight from school. So that would have made you very different as a student.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

Yeah, because I was like, this is just another hurdle I need to jump stone for you to get to the other things that I want to do with this. And I still kind of feel like that now. I'm like, there's certain things I need to just get done so that I can do X, Y, and Z. Like, like what?

SPEAKER_01 18:54

What's next? Because you're already working in private practice in London. Yeah, you've done pretty well already.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

Yeah, but there's so much I need to learn that it's it's like little clinical things that I need to learn to affect that. I'm like, I haven't even, you know, done this type of big case yet that I need to understand. Or I did my first one, so it doesn't really count. I was just finding my way around like a full math rehab, and now I need to do it better and make the workflow better. It's all those little things that everyone has, I'm sure, in their head for themselves and like their clinical goals. And so it's bad because I'm not I need to remember that I'm I've come far, I need to appreciate and all these things everyone always tells me it's hard to stop thinking about the next thing. I think we're all like that.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

100%. They they say, don't they, to remember that you probably have everything you wish for six, five, six years ago.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

And then as soon as you've got it, you think, right, what's next?

SPEAKER_00 20:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

And it's a long, long career. That's true. I think there's there's no rush in one sense, but I I can't say that because I'm not that person either.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Yeah. I think all as dentists, we all are.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

We we all think that way. Striving for the best and the next thing and next challenge. Definitely. Let's move slightly um laterally. When you're talking about that full mouth rehab case and you're a little bit more in the deep end. How how do you deal with feeling like that at work or feeling slightly stressed with a case?

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Like anything that you've never done before, it's almost like this huge cloud of confusion. For me, it's all the little steps. I can get hung up on making things perfect in my head before doing things, and I think that's super dangerous because you then it just stops you doing anything, and you learn much more once you just do something. But of course, you need to have the knowledge in your head. I think when it comes to anything that you don't know, my biggest advice is try and just do it as much of it as you can, because you'll learn so much more attempting it, and just psychologically, your brain will pick up roots because it's if you're trying to get from A to B in your head, those neurons, those signals have never passed before because it's a new challenge. The first time you do it, it'll be a kind of a confusing zigzag, and you might end at B and be like, How did I get here? Which is what happened to me all of my first full mouth rehab. I was like, Okay, I don't quite understand how I did this, or I don't know if I can do this again and make it better. But I learned so much on the way that I wouldn't have learned if I just sat and tried to perform. Before even trying it. So I guess what I'm trying to say is do it. Don't think too much about it. And then do it again and do it again. And every time you do it, you'll learn how to do it better. And it won't be as scary before I'd done it. It was this huge, immense thing in my head that I was like, I'm gonna ruin someone's mouth, and they're gonna end up with so much jaw pain. And all these fears I had was stopping me doing it in the first place. And I realized that those are just negative thoughts on my head and they don't mean anything. And even if complications arise, I'm smart enough, I'm uh I have a support system. It's not about knowing that, oh, I'm so clever, I can do it all by myself. That never helps. That's just your ego. I think whether you think that or you think you're not smart enough, you can never do it. Both of those are not helpful. I think again it goes back to knowing what your limitations are, like what are you good at, and also knowing where when to ask for help. In my first four mouth rehab, I think there were like four dentists that I was like going to for different areas of it and consulting with and and asking questions and making sure I was kind of feeling confident about it. Um and I think there's no shame in that as well. And I think that's actually really useful, especially if it's your first time doing anything that you're a bit nervous about. Definitely preparation.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Preparation, but you you acknowledge that you're nervous and prepare, but that nervousness is normal. And if you weren't nervous, it would be worrying. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

I used to I still do it now if I have a particularly big, bigger case or something to do. I'll I'll just we're all very quick at typing nowadays. I just type out the steps because so often you forget basic things when you're thrown into a bigger scenario and you think, oh my goodness, I forgot to take the putty index at the beginning. And you I just simplify it so it's almost like I have less decision making along the process and just following a recipe to it as much as you can. And then you But you're absolutely right. If you don't get stuck in, you'll never learn. And I that's one of the things I I see more and more with the young ones messaging at the moment is people are really, really fearful. And you talked about COVID. Some of some of these students uh were I think slightly earlier in the COVID days than than yourself. But I've talked to people in their fourth years who haven't seen patients, or very, very few. Yeah. That must that must really be scary if you're coming out of your degree and you you didn't get the same experience.

SPEAKER_00 24:45

Uh maybe. I can't sit here and say that I came out of university and even if I'd seen a hundred patients that I felt super confident and ready to go. I think I learned the most I ever learned, the the fastest step, the fastest, steepest learning curve was my foundation year. I think I truly believe, and that's just based on my personal experience, that was make or break for me. I was in South Hall in a very high needs area, seeing a lot of patients doing a lot of everything. And I think that taught me so much more than anything I'd learned at university. If anything, it disproved a lot of the things I learned at university. Because sometimes you might learn the perfect way to do something, and then you go into clinic and you realize that you need to learn the practical way of doing something like a crown prep, might not be the same steps you would have taken at university that took you four hours to do. And so I to people, to students that are worried that they're not getting enough practical clinical experience at university, I would reassure them and say that I don't think I had a lot of practical experience. I had a lot more than most students, but that I learned more in my foundation year, and I think that's really key. Throw yourself in the deep end, try and get a practice where you know it's in a high needs area. I had friends who were in areas where they might see like one patient, two patients a day, which is really not great at that time of learning. Yeah, because what are you doing? Well, I have I have friends that were just doing actual hygiene a lot of the year because they weren't getting enough practice. They were in like more rural areas. And I would listen to them and gosh, wow, like that. I'm so grateful. Yes, I'm tired and I'm you know having a mental breakdown and I'm crying, and the tutor's in the room like every other hour. But I learned so much in that year, and I was really, really lucky to have an incredible tutor who was always there to help me and to teach me, more importantly, not like just to take over and fix my mistakes, to actually just go through the thought processes, and I would go in his room every day and ask him questions, and I learned so much in that year, then I would have that university, and then even following that, I went into private because I was like, I want to learn all the private work, which I wouldn't have learned in my foundation year, and I did the same. I found really nice dentists that I would I would ask them politely, do you mind if I watched this procedure? I would look in the diary. Uh, when you first start as private, you your diary is pretty much empty. So I would look in their diary and see what they've got and go and ask them questions. And and most people are really nice, most people want to teach you. Um, and so that's how I learn the most, and that's still how I'm learning now. Yeah, you're very proactive. Not everybody does that. I I wonder why they don't, though. Is it because they're nervous? Is it because they think they know more or do or like than they do, or do they think that I don't know why why you wouldn't. Like it's it's free, it's in there. Unless someone says to me, look, I Serena, I don't want you in the room. Which has never happened. Like never happened, and I've asked hundreds of people. It's happened maybe in DMs when I've they've asked for they've quoted me how much they're gonna charge me for me to watch them. Oh, really? Wild, because it's like, I'm not competing with you, I've just graduated, I just want to watch you. But that's for everyone has a you know their own needs. Like I got quoted like 2k once to watch someone for like an hour. Just yeah, I know. Wow. I was like, what? Thank you. It's mild, but most people are happy to to teach and help. So yeah, we've all been there.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

We've just done it more times than you, that's all.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

I think it's just being polite and asking in the right way and get your foot in a door.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

Asking the right way is really important. Ask really the right way is really important. I think also getting to know the person you want to. I wouldn't like I don't cold message someone that I've never met before, doesn't know me from Tom, Dick, or Harry. I I it's usually someone who I've maybe met a few times or engaged in conversation with or uh or is working in the clinic that I work in, you know. You've got to be respectful of someone's time and and energy as well. Yes, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

I this makes me smile because when I first started the job I'm in at the moment, so I've been there five years now, I think. When I first start in a in any practice, I always go and see the lab and and meet anyone they refer to. And this practice I work in now has been around for 35, 40 years. So they have some very long-standing relationships with referrers. And I ended up being taken out for three full course dinners by some of these love family specialists because they were so excited that I'd emailed. And one of them said I was the first in 30 years to have ever messaged saying I'd love to meet you. So I I arrived and thought I was gonna have a little tour of his his room and we'd have a cup of tea. And um knocked on the door on a Friday evening after work. And uh he's like, Oh, hi Fran, lovely to meet you. I tried to go in, he's like, What are we doing? I've got a table booked around the corner. I love that. A table booked walked around the corner. There was already um Prosecco waiting. Oh, he was so he was adorable. It's one of the best days I've ever had. Oh, I love that. Lovely. So never never be scared of reaching out. Everyone's definitely everyone's open to it if you if you ask politely.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

The labs thing is a really good thing as well, actually. You learn a lot. I've been to a few labs and you'd learn so much from them and how you can make your workflow easier if you're understanding what they're doing to get to what you want. It makes what you do in the clinic a lot clearer.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Yeah. I remember one of our um questions for the VT jobs when the standardized uh recruitment thing, one of the stations, was you had a model of a crown that wasn't fitting, and they said, What would you do? And apparently the number of people blaming the lab was higher than saying I'd message and say, Is there something I've done wrong or can we work with this together? And it's quite that was definitely a psychology one thrown in. Yeah. To question yourself before you're question blaming someone else very quickly.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Definitely. That's funny. My tutor actually in foundation here also taught me to message the lab when things go really well, too. Because we only ever message them when something goes wrong. Oh, I love that. And he was like, You they also need feedback when they've when there's something has gone really well, so they know how to do that again. Or so it's just a nice thing to do because it gives them a boost of confidence in the relationship that you have and just works really well. So I started doing that too. That's lovely. Do you send them photos? Um, I have now WhatsApp messages with uh the labs that I work with. So, yeah, a lot of time I've been like, Thank you so much for that. Really great case, went really smoothly. What I liked was X, Y, and Z. And what maybe we can do to improve it next time would be this, that kind of thing. I should do more of that. I not all the labs love that. Serena's messages again. Yeah, gosh, it's happy new year from Serena. Leave us alone. Let's have a break. Um, yeah, I I'd try, not all the labs like that. You you all know which do because of the kind of response they give back. I got a thumbs up once after I'd written like this much. Um so obviously you'll know what works best with the with the lab. You go, but you know what? The the lab that you'll find if you are that kind of person, you'll find a lab that is that kind of lab too. Because they're again, they're just people, so you're just trying to get on with those type of people. And if you're of the same mind, that workflow will just be a lot easier. I had a lab who was completely different, their way of communication was no communication, and that did not work for me at all because actually it would create a lot of issues with it's not that they were doing anything wrong because we weren't having a lot of communication. I found it difficult trying to explain what I needed, and so a lot of the times I wasn't happy with a lot of the things that were coming back just because we were recommunicating. Yeah. Any unsung heroes in your career? So many. Oh, that's nice. Am I gonna give a shout out? Yeah, you can if you want to, or so many of so because I said I'm the type of person to go knock on the door, go into the clinic and and watch people, there are so many dentists that have helped me along the way that I just I'm so grateful for. So if you're watching this and you know you're one of them, thank you so much for l answering my questions and uh just you know giving me your time.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

What do you think makes a good mentor? You've had quite a few listening to you, and I think it does make the difference.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

No judgment, because especially if you're doing something for the first time, you might be asked asking stupid questions, but as long as they don't make you feel like it's a stupid question, then it's totally fine. Um yeah, I think no judgment. So you feel like you can approach them no matter what the question is. And also what works is sometimes they might explain something and you still don't understand. Best tutors are the ones that would then change the explanation, not just repeat the same thing again and expect you to suddenly understand what they've said.

SPEAKER_01 34:52

That's a good point. Rewording it back to you. Yeah, rewording it in a different way. So you can't repeat the same sentence and be like how you've interpreted that. Yeah. I think we're gonna go slightly off piece now, because I know you're a bit of a a wellness, a wellness baddie. How do you wellness wellness savvy, yes? How do you how would you switch off after one of those brutal dental days? Do you have go-tos and pretty good at looking after yourself?

SPEAKER_00 35:26

Yeah, but it takes work. Uh-huh. If I told you the work it took, you'd think I was psycho. But sometimes you do have to just go and sit with yourself literally in front of a mirror and talk yourself out of this downward spiral you might be going through after like a bad day or after a challenging patient. Because it, you know, when they say fake it till you make it, it's all a psychological trick. You I started looking in the mirror and smiling when I was sad to force myself to feel better. If I had the first few days that I would work in Chelsea Dental Clinic, I was so nervous because I was like, oh my god, these pay people paying so much money. And you know, I had all these negative thoughts about how inexperienced I might be, or X, Y, and Z. And I would go into the bathroom before the day and look at myself and say, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna be great, I'm gonna have a great day, I'm gonna do my best, and I'm gonna have an amazing day. I didn't believe it, but I would do it so many times that I I genuinely would have a good day that day. And I know it sounds crazy to say that, but it really works.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

No, I'm a big believer in that. I used to work with a nurse, and it sounds like just one sentence, but every morning she'd clap her hands and she'd say, We're gonna smash it today, fam. And that was in a mixed NHS private job, but it it made you laugh right straight away. And she just had an energy, and you think, Okay, we're gonna smash it today. Yeah, I could do this. Turns it on its head, and you just yes, it's having a word with yourself, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 37:04

I have a word with myself every day, every single day, because you will always have these like negative thoughts in your head. You need to, and it will come back. You'll you do the mirror thing, and the thought will come back, and you have to stop the thought and and divert it again and again and again. And the more times you do it, the easier it becomes, and the less of those thoughts you have, you will always have negative thoughts, you'll always have thoughts that will make you feel bad about yourself or make you feel like you're not worthy or you're not good enough. And it's just about stopping those thoughts, and every it just takes work. Yeah, those those thoughts are sometimes complete lies. Yeah, or they might be true. Well, yes, but you just need to see it in a way, you have to. I'm a very and this is also can I've been told is toxic too. I I like to solve problems all the time, and sometimes I know with psychology there isn't, you can't solve it, but I always think does this thought, is this thought gonna help me today, or is it gonna make me be even worse of a dentist? The practical thing is it will most likely is gonna make me worse. So it's not going to help me having that thought, even if it's true, it's not going to help me have that thought. It's not gonna help my patient having that thought. It's I'm probably gonna make more mistakes if I'm thinking that way. And I just remind myself, how do I want to feel today? What I want to get out of this? I want to have a good treatment, I want to feel good about it, and I want to enjoy the day. Are those three things gonna happen if I think this way? No, so I need to stop thinking this way so that I can have those three things. It's almost yeah, just trying to strip it back and remove the emotion out of the way.

SPEAKER_01 38:41

Yeah, things what am I actually feeling here?

SPEAKER_00 38:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

Am I scared? Am I angry? My mum always says, you can either grow weeds or flowers in your head. Yeah, it's true.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

That's true. I'm still struggling with the part after the fact of you know, I've I've done the practical thing, then I go home. I do ruminate a little bit and then worry. That's how you that's because you care. Yeah, I'm still working on that. That's harder, I think, to let go because at that point I'm at home. So that whole practical thing of is this gonna help me doesn't really work because it's done now. And it's like I I sit there and I can worry about things for a while. That I'm still working on.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Yeah, don't don't sit in it till it's happened. It may never happen. I once had um an awful denture case that kept going on and on and on, and I was thinking about this fit and it had gone so far, you know, number of appointments, blah blah blah blah, angry patient. Never came, never came to pick it up. I was absolutely never needed that I was, and that it taught me a big lesson that I'd I'd be thinking about it for ages, and I never fitted it. Yeah, I ended up in the bin in the in the end. So who knows why? But until it's happened, don't spend too much time on it. That's true. Because it might never happen. What would you say success looks like to you? If you had a successful week, what happened?

SPEAKER_00 40:05

Everything went well, I got paid loads and I had a lot of little. Um, a successful day is a day or a week. A successful week is if I've had like really good feedback. I know that's not always healthy as well to be like that, but unfortunately, I am that way inclined. I do feel good when a patient gives me good feedback. And the opposite of that happens is when the when, say if a patient isn't happy, maybe they're in a bad mood. I also do feel like it is it my fault. Like if they walk through the door and they're a bit moody, that's not healthy too, because it's got nothing to do with me. So I'm still learning how to navigate that. But a perfect week is really when I feel like I had some really nice feedback from my reception staff, like the other week, and she said something that was really sweet, and that made me feel really good. And like she said something. She said to me that since I've been working here, she's noticed that patients only have good things to say about me at reception, and they often ask what my name was again because they were surprised about or they had a good experience, and she says they all she only ever hears good things, um, which is nice because she usually gossips about other people. So it's always good to hear good things.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

It's like you said that you send it to your lab. Yeah. People forget to tell you when you're good. Yeah, that's true. And we need more of it because we remember the tiny, uh tiny distal corner of something. Yeah. Be reminded you were a kind person the other day. Yeah, definitely. So, how would you look after yourself? What is this work you do apart from affirmations and talking to yourself?

SPEAKER_00 41:47

Little pleasures in life. So little things in life that make me happy. Um, whether it looking after my mind, body, soul, those kind of you know, things that everyone says, but going for a walk, what they call the hot girl walk. Hot girl, very hot gall. Or mental health walk. Yeah, my mental health walk.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

I always think that's funny, hot go, hot girl walks, and it's the worst you ever look. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

My little dopamine hit when I buy a coffee from a new place. Little things like that, I think, that are my little treasures during the day that make me feel a little bit better.

SPEAKER_01 42:25

Just keep you keep you uh ticking.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Yeah. Any daily rituals? Your morning routine kind of person or a bit more than that? No, I like a morning routine because by the time it comes to the evening, I want to not do anything and become a kind of a rotten vegetable. Yeah. Like I'm definitely more a morning person than I am an evening person. Morning routine is always I have the same breakfast really now every day, which is a date with a walnut, a few berries, and some kiwi for fiber. As an IBS girly, those things have become really important to me. I have and my coffee and uh then go to the gym because as long as I get those things out of the way in the morning, then the rest of the day works really well. There's no I tried journaling and things like that. It didn't work very well for me. I know that a lot of people it works well for them. I think all things you need to find what works for you. So for me, it was pushing a few weights and screaming in the gym makes me feel really good about myself so that I have a great day. That might not be for everyone. So that is that's my little ritual in the morning. And having some sit-down time when I'm having my coffee and the berries. I always make a little plate, and I don't like to just like pick out of the box or walk and eat and make a whole intentional plate with a very nice. I like mugs. I might be a little bit autistic, but we don't know. And I sit down.

SPEAKER_01 44:10

This profession.

SPEAKER_00 44:11

I have to sit down and have it, and that's like my moment in the day. That's nice. So you're not in a rush in the morning. I try not to be. I usually will be if I'm running late for work, but I'm never late.

SPEAKER_01 44:24

I think especially in these cities like London, if you can start your day off while you've not been running on adrenaline before you go there, it's definitely a game changer.

unknown 44:34

Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 44:35

What lights you up outside of work?

SPEAKER_00 44:37

My niece and nephew. Oh, how old are they? They are eight and seven. She's gonna be seven in a couple weeks. She's actually mad at me because I'm missing her body. But they they light me up because they're just cute and innocent. Children are feeling to them. I'm not mum, I'm their aunt. So it's always fun. You give them back at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

And that I think makes me really happy. Because they also well, I mean, now they can say Serena, but when they were younger, they couldn't say my name properly. So they call me Ina. Ina. Yeah, so I was like, you know what? I love them, so I'm ready to change my name. Auntie Ina.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

Oh, bless. And outside of work and family, is there anything you're passionate about? Do you have hobbies or yeah, traveling, I think.

SPEAKER_00 45:28

Eating is that and hoffy. Definitely. I like I would choose a destination based on the cuisine that I'm gonna get out of it. I do like street food too. So I eat a lot of, I you know, I I play Russian roulette with my stomach all the time. Especially as an IBS. Yeah. Yeah, you'd be you'd be surprised. I've had no IBS whilst traveling. But eating and traveling and kind of trying different foods and trying different cuisines and walking around, I'm a bit of a history buff as well. I'm not the kind of history buff that you would like to quote me and I would regurgitate everything I know, type of thing. It's more just that I'm very interested. If I go to a country, I have to have a historical tour. Otherwise, if I feel like I haven't learnt about the the city I'm in, I feel like it was a waste of going there. I won't like obviously I love shopping and all these girly things, but things that people don't know about me, I'd love, like really love watching the history. So I'll do a city tour, learn the history, go eat the food and all these things, visit the sites, then I'll go home that same night in the hotel, watch a Netflix show or documentary about it so I can really you know stable home the facts that I learned. I'll do another tour and then I'll say those facts and try and learn more. Preaching to the quiet development.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

I did a six-hour Vatican tour on my own. Six hours. Just that's a soak it up. There's I don't I I agree. I I couldn't go somewhere and not immerse myself in it. I find it so interesting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:02

Just me too, and people and looking around and how the monologue was built and how it all came about and what struggles they had to go to and what that means for the people who live there now. How they are here, yeah. Where did they come from? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:17

Definitely makes you understand. I can't do weekend city breaks, it's too short for me. I like to be there for five, six, seven days.

SPEAKER_00 47:26

Yeah. I like if I'm gonna do a weekend, I prefer just like a staycation in in London and just go eat my heart out everywhere around here. But where's your favourite place to eat in London? It's difficult because I don't enjoy food in London as much. Okay. I don't think it's that great. Even though we've got so many incredible chefs and cuisines and all these things, when you go abroad, you realise how better the food tastes. And I think a lot of that comes from the produce itself. Yeah. Like you'll go to South America for or anywhere in the world or even in Europe, and you'll eat the pasta with just tomato sauce, and it'll be the best pasta you ever had because the tomatoes were grown locally, or the olive oil that was used to cook the pasta in, just everything tastes better. Yeah. So it's difficult to say. I don't know if I have a favorite kind of cuisine to eat. If I don't say Iranian food, my ancestors were screaming in their in their cream. So I think I have to say Iranian and Moroccan, because what does Moroccan food? Moroccan food is amazing, but rice then. So rice is the Iranian and then bread is the Moroccans. Okay. Um, tagines and Lebanese food. I don't discriminate. I love a tanko, I love Lebanese food, I love uh all kinds of food, really. I probably my go-to, I was living in Battersea for a bit, and there was this local Indian that I had that like nobody knows about. Every time I would order from them, they would send me extras and it would just be the best Indian I ever had, but I probably don't even know the name of it. If you walked past it, you'd never walk in because it looks dark and dingy, but amazing. Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

Where's the best place you've ever travelled? You love travelling. Oh, so hard, isn't it? The variety is what's great.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

Yeah, I think I just got back from South America, and Peru is exactly what Peru is advertised as. So your expectations are here and it meets it completely. Both in terms of history, culture, scenery, food. The best food in the world is in Lima. They have the most, I think, number of Mushlin stars, and the food is incredible because it's using all these unique flavours that you've probably never had before. And I didn't really take that on board when people would tell me that, and then I tried it. I'm like, wow, these flavors, like, what are these combinations? So Peru is as incredible as is advertised. Places that stood out that I didn't know were incredible were Argentina from the north. I went from the north to the middle to the south, and the variety of landscape. Like I literally went from desert to rainforest to mountains and city breaks and and vineyards, all in one country, which I thought was incredible. I think is really, really underrated. Argentina, I could spend months in Argentina. I've never been to South America. I used to go only to go to Art America. Argentina's so cheap as well, because unfortunately for them, their currency is like through on the floor. So it it was just an incredible experience. Food as well, it was just incredible. And Bolivia, I would say. Bolivia. Bolivia is not as accessible, but the scenery is unlike anything I've ever seen before. Really? So that those two I'd say. Or like tropical or mountainous sort of thing. No, they have all these lagoons, mountainous. So they have a lot of lagoons. So we got we got picked up from the the border and f driven around. You can't drive around yourself. There are no signs, there are no clear roads. It's all these is a desert basically with mountains and lagoons, all these colourful lagoons with flamencos and all these things. And of course, they have the cities as well, but a lot of Bolivia is just kind of open land, and it's just scenery and salt flats and scenery that you've never seen before. It's just very underrated. I don't know anyone that has been to Bolivia. Actually, now I do friends from university. But I don't know a lot of people who have been to Bolivia, and I just think that it's very underrated, and most people should try and go. Everyone book the trip now before it gets ruined with tourism. Exactly. Because a lot of the other places there are a lot of tourists, especially Peru. So Bolivia is definitely if you're gonna go to Peru, try and go to Bolivia. Top tips.

SPEAKER_01 51:50

Do you think you'd be something in travel if you weren't a dentist?

SPEAKER_00 51:53

Uh surprisingly, no.

SPEAKER_01 51:55

Work or something.

SPEAKER_00 51:56

No, I don't think so. I think I love it so much that I I don't see it as work, as in I can't see myself. I don't even write about it. A lot of my friends or family were like, why don't you journal about the stuff you did? And I tried, and it just felt forced. It didn't feel like I'll journal through the photos that I take, but I can't sit there and write about it. That's your is pure pleasure. It's complete pleasure. It's really, really enjoyable. I think psychology would probably because that I would sit down and I'd read about it and I'd write about it. Because psychology, in the terms of how you resolve conflict, why people behave the way they do, that kind of thing really interests me a lot, even in my own personal life when I have obstacles with you know communication with certain people or conflict and things like that. I'm always looking up why did they behave like that? What was making them triggering them, making them feel that way, what was making me feel that way. I find it really interesting. Yeah, I I agree.

SPEAKER_01 53:00

If you have any kind of basic psychology knowledge as well, it helps you so much with reading patients, those little non-verbal cues and even down to that level. Definitely. Brilliant. Okay, let's ask you the final question, Serena. It's gone so quickly. I know, it's flow flown by. What advice do you wish you'd been given if you went back to starting dental school or graduating, or maybe you had some really good advice?

SPEAKER_00 53:26

Maybe don't be afraid to put yourself out there more. I know it sounds like I did when it came to jobs, but I held back a lot with not asking or going to events or meeting people outside of work. I don't really do that much now as well, to be honest. But the more I do, the more amazing people I meet. So I'm always like, oh, I wish I did more of that. Going to events, not being, you know, shy or afraid to do things like that. I have a lot of friends who do that and I watch them and I'm so proud of them. And I think, why am I not doing that? I mean, I say this now, and then I'll go to an event, and I'm like, God, I want to go home. But I do think it helps mainly for the sole purpose of meeting people that maybe you may have never met before. And that opens your mind and obviously opens you to opportunities too, but not just seeing it as a way to climb a ladder or climb people and try and get opportunities, more just really so just meeting different types of people.

SPEAKER_01 54:27

It's surprising how one little interaction changes something, or it means something else. I mean, you wouldn't be satisfied here if you we hadn't met when you came on my course. But exactly you someone else said even sometimes you're on a course and you you meet somebody and they give you a great accountant. Exactly. Something really random and you never know. But I I used to hold back. I'd never been like a I'd say like a mixing person. I'm quite I'm quite quiet, really.

SPEAKER_02 54:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:55

But then when you're when you're there in the mixer, you're like, I oh, I'm happy I went to that.

SPEAKER_00 54:59

Yeah. Or you'll have that one conversation. You will. Yeah. You feel like, oh wow, I really enjoyed this. I'm glad it came. Yeah. Do you first go and you're like, oh god, like I don't know, I don't really want to walk up to someone and talk. Because a lot of the times in dentistry as well, you do have certain type of people that you can just see, like they'll come up to me, they'll ask me, they'll see that they can't gain anything from me and walk away, and you can sense it. And you do there is a lot of that in dentistry, I think. But you don't have to be that person, and there are a lot of people not like that there, where you can just have really genuine conversations and it just you don't know what might flourish from it. And that I would tell my younger self to have done that sooner. I think get evolved, yeah. Get involved outside of work more, go to events, don't be afraid to even go alone. A lot of the times I would wait for friends that would go and maybe hop on with them and go with them. And it's like, why don't you just go alone and meet new people?

SPEAKER_01 55:53

Yeah, because you're always gonna hang around your friends if you're you're not gonna talk the same. Exactly. Definitely. That is great sound advice.

SPEAKER_00 56:01

Thank you so much for coming. Thanks for having me.