Neutral Zone
Welcome to Neutral Zone!
A podcast about the people behind the Dentistry profession.
I'm Dr Fran Brelsford and I invite you to meet a different dentist with me on each episode.
We chat with the humans behind the drills and the instagram profiles.
No hustle, no ego, no clinical chat.
Just good old fashioned conversation, new questions, and genuine connection.
Episodes dropped on Wednesdays.
Because there’s more to life than teeth.
Neutral Zone
Angelo Zavattini
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Meet Angelo, the passionate vivacious Roman endodontist now living and working in London. We chat over aperitivo about his journey, the differences between study and work in Italy and the UK and how he maintains his vitality.
@endo.zava
Hi, I'm Angelo Zamattini and this is Neutral Zone.
SPEAKER_03Ciao.
SPEAKER_00Ciao, ciao Bello. Thank you for hosting me. Thank you for letting me come to your flat and you've prepared a beautiful aperitivo for us.
SPEAKER_02You're very welcome, and it's not even everything because the pizza is on the way.
SPEAKER_00I love refreshments before we need refreshing.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Gosh, you're so sweet. How do you say cheers in Italian salute? Salute Leon. I think this is my favorite episode yet already. Angelo, how much of your identity do you think is tied to being a dentist?
SPEAKER_02I think my identity is more or less the same. Obviously, it's a bit different with different people. But as a dentist, I feel very passionate. I feel very enthusiasm of what I do. And probably my identity of being a passionate extrovert, very patient-centered, because I love I love life, I love human the human people. So I think this kind of aspect is very linked to my professional activity.
SPEAKER_00So you like the human connection in the human connection, yes.
SPEAKER_02Also, the type of job I do is very much into helping people in fighting pain infections. And I really understand when they come to me and they are in pain and they suffer. So I my I really try to look after people to look after them, not only from a technical point of view, but also from uh place of humanity. Yes, yes, yes, 100%.
SPEAKER_00If you think of yourself though as like a pie, and I'm not saying you're anything but a pie. A pie. A pie.
SPEAKER_03A pie.
SPEAKER_00Like a cake. Like a cake. Okay.
SPEAKER_03Let's call it cake. Torta. A torta.
SPEAKER_00And how much of that torta would you say, if that is Angelo the Torta, how much of that cake is a dentist? What other slices are there to you as a person?
SPEAKER_02You are say uh like I'm let's say, probably I would say uh 40% dentist, 40% uh sportsman, and 40% uh a lover. But lover intended as someone that loves uh in in general the world. Food food feminist form music music life life.
SPEAKER_00I think that's the perfect mix.
SPEAKER_024040, no, 4040 is 80-20, sorry.
SPEAKER_00Zero percent mathematician.
SPEAKER_03So no, 40 40-40, no, it's okay, so 40-20. So he wants it with primitivo. 33 33 33.
SPEAKER_00Okay, a third, third, third. That's a nice balance, I think. Yeah. So you're a keen sportsman if it's a third. Yeah, can you tell? I can tell. 100%. What kind of sport do you do?
SPEAKER_02I mean, I do uh sports that um um make me raise the heartbeat. I like to feel uh the intensity, I like to feel my body that reach the limit, and therefore I like to do this kind of crossfit uh running, swimming. Uh probably what I'm looking from the sport is the emotion. I'm trying to reach a peak with my body and try to push my body. Yeah. And I like to feel that that that kind of pain.
SPEAKER_00Uh that reminds me of s of a song Um I'm just a sucker for pain. I'll I'll play it for you at the end. Okay, thank you. Yeah, it's I know what you mean. It's pushing yourself, and you like that feeling of of it being difficult.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And seeing the results every day that you're you're getting fitter. Do you have you some of these people that have the watch and the whole thing?
SPEAKER_02I don't know. Oh no, I really hate training with the watch and with the music because when I train, when I do long run, I like to feel my heart, I like to feel uh myself. So I I I really I really avoid using all of this. Oh, really? The watch when I run, yes, because I like to keep the pace, but no music.
SPEAKER_00You like the silence or listening to what's around you.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00That's very interesting.
SPEAKER_02Yes, 100%.
SPEAKER_00So you're you're relying solely on your mind when you're running to keep you going.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I do. I do.
SPEAKER_00That is that is pretty impressive.
SPEAKER_02I like to also the mind that sometimes it doesn't stay with the body all the time. So you need you you need to go and take the mind back to you. I I I remember I was doing a marathon uh and um at some point I was feeling like that I was running, but I was uh I was not there, but the body was just going, going, going. So it's it's quite interesting what the body can do under certain circumstances.
SPEAKER_00It's amazing in a in a good and a bad way that your mind can wander off like that. Like you can't remember the last hundred meters. No, probably not. Where do you think we go? Somewhere else. How do you think you're similar to how you're training for sports, like how you work at work? Are you pushing for perfection at work?
SPEAKER_02I think there is a very good uh connection between this kind of um aspect because uh when I do sport, I try to you know perform, and when I do my job, I try to perform as well. I'm I'm looking for the performance.
SPEAKER_00You like the challenge?
SPEAKER_02I like the challenge, I like to fix it. Uh also they come to me when they are the cases are complicated, and therefore, my aim is to fix the impossible sometimes. Probably this kind of aspect of my work is really connected to my personality. And actually, thank you for this question because I never thought about this. And probably this is the this is the reality, you know.
SPEAKER_00Do you think we can reach perfection though?
SPEAKER_02We can reach uh perfection from my point of view doesn't exist. But it exists something that uh is um is to is it is at to an optimum level which can um can work, but perfection, I mean what perfection uh just Michelangelo.
SPEAKER_00Just Michelangelo, probably. You have half of his name. What kind of um difficulties do you face at work? Uh, you like the challenge, but do you ever feel out of your depth?
SPEAKER_02To be fair, after um a bit of uh years of um practice, um And you're a specialist in endodontist. I am, yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00For those who don't know.
SPEAKER_02To be honest with you, at the more at the stage of my career, um from a technical point of view, um there are challenging cases. But to be very honest, it is very rare to see something that I've never seen before. What I think is the challenge sometimes is the management of the personality, is the management of the of the patient itself, uh which sometimes it can be very, very, at least for me, uh it can be really daunting because I I am a person that I absorb a lot from patients in general. Other colleagues of mine they are they are just flat and they just uh deal with it. I am a bit different. I I absorb, usually I absorb good and bad things from from patients, from persons. I know that I have these uh characteristics.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a double-edged sword because when you're saying how much you love that human connection, you love that because you get so much out of it, but then it's being an empath, and you take all of their worry as well because that's just who you are, but it does show you care. What gets you excited outside of work?
SPEAKER_02What gets me out from sports? Apart from sport, uh you get me excited when I meet someone, and um I cannot stop talking with this person because the energy is really good.
SPEAKER_00Oh, so meeting new friends, meeting new friends, socializing apart from sports and training, how else do you look after your mind, your soul? You've talked about your body.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I do I am uh recently started to do more meditation, yoga, self-connection. Um and I'm exploring a bit more this mindfulness uh concept that um I believe is really important.
SPEAKER_00What's got you into that?
SPEAKER_02Probably, you know, um at a certain stage of your life your needs change. When you are 20, you want something, when you are 30, you want something. When you are 40, you may be more interested in other things, you know. Not anymore what you were doing before. So at the moment I am more in need of self-konnection groundness. I'm more looking for good quality time rather than the fun time. This is essentially what is happening. Nothing is permanent. Everything changes life. We cannot assume that we're gonna be always yang and beautiful for. We need to also accept that the time goes, and we just to live with it well, because life is beautiful, and I believe that there is um beauty in every single uh chapter of our life.
SPEAKER_00So, I very much agree with you. So, this next chapter for Angelo, what does that look like?
SPEAKER_02The next chapter is um, I mean what I hope for myself is to have a very nice family. Now, if you if you will ask, if you if you're going to ask me, Angelo, what would you like to have in your life now? I would answer, I would like to have a family. A family uh with someone to love and someone to to grow with. Uh I have a beautiful family uh in general, but this is this will be my family, my own family.
SPEAKER_00The family you are creating.
SPEAKER_02The family that I'm creating, yes.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's lovely.
SPEAKER_02I think also this comes from uh the fact that I I had the example of having a mother and a father that they loved each other a lot. In my family, we always have a lot of love, and um probably I am a reflection of this love, and I would like to give back this love.
SPEAKER_00I think that's very obvious for what you've put out for me today. You love looking after people. It's nice. You do. I like I can definitely see that not since I've known you. Going back to your family, you are from Italy. I am now you're in London.
SPEAKER_02I am, yes, yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00You have a London family as well, though, would you say?
SPEAKER_02Yes, 100%. Yes. I have uh lots of friends, um, very, very group of friends that we are all very connected. Uh um and I call this a family for myself.
SPEAKER_00Your chosen family. Yes, yes. Are any of those from studying or um no? So it's quite important to have friends outside of dentistry.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, 100%. Yes, yes, yes. The majority of my friends are are outside outside dentistry. Obviously, I I look I like to have my dental friends that they can understand uh better what I'm saying. Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh. Those endodontic terms. Have you had any turning points in your life or career so far? Turning point. Yeah, exactly like that.
SPEAKER_02It's like turning point.
SPEAKER_00Just as it sounds.
SPEAKER_02I mean, in my life I had a lot of turning points from the you are uh talking about career-wise, right?
SPEAKER_00For life. Just when something happens to you and it spins you in a different direction.
SPEAKER_02I turned multiple times in my life. Um, probably due to the fact that we're more decision-related to jobs. I was I I traveled quite a lot in the UK. So those were times where I was turning my career until I found the final uh your North Star. Sorry?
SPEAKER_00Your North Star.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00I've probably saying so many weird English sayings throughout this. It's my uh my northernness, I think. I think you're quite adaptable, is what you're saying.
unknownYes.
SPEAKER_00You've gone with the flow quite a lot.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I had yeah, I I I follow what was going to happen to what was happening to me, because uh you know I was changing from um uh hospital to another, so I was progressing with the career, and then at some point everything twisted towards London, where uh then I completed my training and then I built up my life, let's say.
SPEAKER_00How do you find it different, um, London and Italy?
SPEAKER_02Very different. Very different. I mean, London is a beautiful city. Uh, it's a city that gives a lot of opportunity, but it's also a city that uh sometimes can eat you. Um, it's a city where people don't have time, people that uh are running uh left and right. It's very difficult for me to ring a friend and saying, Look, I'm here. Do you want to grab a coffee? Probably everyone is busy and they're busy until next week. Whereas in Italy it's more laid back. In Italy we see each other even last minute. There is no need of preparing or booking in the agenda an appointment. Or if someone just ringed the bell of my door, is it's okay. Here you know in the UK it's not really we don't know our neighbors in London. I mean it's a it's a different kind of uh you know you cannot compare.
SPEAKER_00Very different. I'd be scared if someone rang my doorbell. I wasn't expecting them.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Do you find it different in terms of training?
SPEAKER_02In terms of training, um I would say it is quite the the system is is completely different. Um in Italy we study a lot, we study a lot of theory and we don't do a lot of practice. Undergrad. For undergrad, yes. For uh specialty training is a bit different. In the UK, specialty training is quite uh is quite good, it's quite solid, especially in the big university training is usually quite complete, it's a complete training. Um, and we don't have this in Italy, or we have but only for specific uh specialty, oral surgery and orthodontics. But from and then the undergraduate level, uh yeah, it's very, very different.
SPEAKER_00You did undergrad in Rome?
SPEAKER_02Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00And how how would you describe that it's different to undergrad than in the UK?
SPEAKER_02That is much more intense with the theory, or it's very theory-based, very akademic. We study on books, very big books. Um we don't do much practical, which is a bit bad because, as a dentist, you need to be able to move well with your hands. Um, but on the other, on the other side, I would say that we acquire a lot of knowledge and after the period of uh study, we probably are able to put in practice this knowledge over a course of a period of time.
SPEAKER_00When do you get that hands-on experience then?
SPEAKER_02You're you're let out in the job and you you the major I would say the majority of your of your learning is on the field. So when you are with patients, then the question is how but how do you do this with patients? Yeah, so usually what happens. Um you follow someone, then progressively you do something small, then you grow. Obviously, the university gives you a bit of a background, but you cannot pretend to be able to immediately start doing a root kanala or a wisdom-tooth extraction. So there is a period of training. But I believe that also in the UK, this is going to what is happening. Our students go to the foundation training, which is really really good and really helpful because they can have a broad experience of everything. But then when you want to perfect yourself, you need to do more, you need to study more at courses residency. So, probably at the end they they balance out.
SPEAKER_00How many years ago did you graduate?
SPEAKER_02More than ten.
SPEAKER_00You don't look like you graduated more than ten years ago. May I give you a little bit more? I know we'll have a little bit more. See, I told you you look after everyone. Going back to your self-reflection, um, Angelo, because you've gone into that chapter of your of your life. Are you reading any books around that or I am reading a few books?
SPEAKER_02Um, one in particular, uh I like to read in Italian. Why? Because I think that when you read in your own language, you can uh you can understand obviously better and you can acquire more 100%.
SPEAKER_00I am in so much awe of I know so many of my most of my dental friends aren't English speaking, the first language, and I'm in awe that you do the job every day in a different language. How? Do you feel tired in that regard?
SPEAKER_02No, not anymore, not anymore. But before uh I remember that at the beginning uh when I was here, yes, I was feeling my head was like uh was buzzing, but today no.
SPEAKER_00Just waiting to get that rubber dam on.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. No, today no, no. Today I is absolutely fine. Actually, sometimes uh and I would like to apologize with everyone. I think I uh I forget a bit of how to speak well in Italian. You know, our language is quite um particular, very articulate. Uh we have a lot of verb declination. Um obviously, now that after so many years of speaking every day in English, I lose a bit the way I was talking in Italian. But I'm sure I can catch up at some point.
SPEAKER_00Definitely think you can. Your English is great. You're reading which kind of books in Italian?
SPEAKER_02So I'm reading a book about a journey of um two guys and they are exploring the world and they use some reflection to explore the world. One of these reflections is: for example: are you sure that things would have been better if we're different. Or is this your best version of yourself? Or when happiness is going to start? So all those uh chapters, they start with a question and then they they explore the question. But then the author gives you an open-ended answer. So there it there is no really an answer. It's you that you need to to answer to those questions. I think it's quite uh it's a quite nice book, and uh it's it's really it's really open me.
SPEAKER_00It's called What is Happiness?
SPEAKER_02Uh What is Happiness?
SPEAKER_00We will all have to look into that. What does happiness look like to you now at this stage of your life?
SPEAKER_02To me, happiness in this stage of my life is um be able to be with by myself without the need of having of having of having um necessarily someone next to me. But also happiness uh um would be at the same time to have someone to look after.
SPEAKER_00I think I think you can believe both and you will need both anyway if you are in a relationship.
SPEAKER_02You do, yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00We can't be with them all the time.
SPEAKER_02This was a deep one.
SPEAKER_00This is a happy moment. Nice glass of wine on a Sunday, a quiet Sunday. What do you think the big
SPEAKER_02The biggest lesson that I'll ever learn that nothing is forever.
SPEAKER_00Nothing is forever.
SPEAKER_02Nothing in this life is forever.
SPEAKER_00So I was listening to an interview with some um A-list Hollywood actors, and I forget which one, but one of them said their biggest um piece of advice would be this tooth shall pass, which is the same thing. So if you're experiencing really high success, it's not gonna be forever. If you're experiencing the biggest low, it's not gonna be forever. And you've got to kind of accept and keep moving.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. No, no, my um I I'm I'm a firm believer that obviously nothing is forever, even you know, even uh as you were correctly said. And I would like to say something that I remember um there was a moment in my life that I was very sad. I was very sad uh because um something happened in my life, and I remember my father uh telling me, Angelo, okay, fine, you are set, you are you're settled today. Please be set today, tomorrow, but from the day after, just be happy. What's the point to to stay sad forever? Because um I mean it's a quite nice approach, you know?
SPEAKER_00It's not easy, but he's right. It's easy to dwell, isn't it? And at those sad times, it's very hard sometimes to just wake up and be happy again, but what's done is done.
SPEAKER_02What's done is done, yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00How do you deal with failure? That's a similar kind of thing your dad was saying.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, how do I deal with failure? I think um to be fair, I think I deal quite well. I had many failures in my life. Many, many, many failure. Uh which um they give me a lesson and they help me to succeed the next time. I'll give an example. Um, I failed so many times before getting a job in the hospital, probably 10 times. Couldn't get in.
SPEAKER_00Relentless.
SPEAKER_02Couldn't get in. I remember the first time I had an interview. Obviously, I'm moved from Italy fresh. I went to this interview very nicely dressed, but I was wearing a beautiful pair of jeans. And a beautiful pair of jeans, a nice shirt. Um, and I remember that one of the feedback that I received was that the attire was not appropriate for an interview. So you know this is just an example. But I failed I failed many times, and then I understood what I had to do. What they wanted. What they wanted, and then uh I was I was winning one after the other. Dun, dun, dun. So, this is what failure teaches me. Obviously, there are different types of failures. Failure is a broad terminology to describe a lot of a lot of things. Failure can be also more painful in life. I mean, failure, you know, you just need to deal with it.
SPEAKER_00It's part of life. It's part of life, yeah. And you can't get better without failing.
SPEAKER_02And the good thing is that there is always a solution.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, what is that really annoying saying that my mum always says to me, if there isn't a solution, it's not a problem, it's a dilemma. Most things in life are a problem, not a dilemma. And those dilemmas are few and far between, but when they do happen, it can be quite upsetting. But most things are problems to be solved. Do you have any daily rituals? Are you a 5 a.m. club man or daily ritual? Your little mock a pot.
SPEAKER_02I mean daily ritual for me, a couple of espresso in the morning is a must.
SPEAKER_00I have one now too.
SPEAKER_02100%. This is my ritual. You can have morning coffee for me. Without morning coffee, I will never be able to leave the house.
SPEAKER_00Oh anything else? Without before bed?
SPEAKER_02Before bed. Before you go to sleep. Before I go to sleep, uh I do eight minutes of medit of meditation. Do you? I do, I do.
SPEAKER_00Why did you stumble at that question before? You've got a perfect bedtime routine. Eight minutes of meditation. How do you meditate?
SPEAKER_02I meditate uh with I do a guided meditation with an app, which is really really nice. I'm not disclosing now the name of the app because uh other apps exist. They exist, but um no, I mean I listen to this uh guided meditation, which is really every day is a different one. Uh one is a body scan, one is um self-reflection, um breathing, um and I I I I really enjoy it. And obviously I read my I always I always read read a bit, at least two, three pages, yeah. As a must.
SPEAKER_00Just helps you wind up.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Do you have a favorite saying or mantra?
SPEAKER_02One that sometimes I say to myself is uh when I'm I'm a bit uh undecised to what to do, but inside of myself I know what to do. I say to myself, but if not now, when?
SPEAKER_00That's a good one.
SPEAKER_01I know.
SPEAKER_00That can be yours. That's your favorite saying on mantra. If not now, when?
SPEAKER_01Exactly.
SPEAKER_00If not now, when? Do the workout, do the root canal.
SPEAKER_01Like, do it now.
SPEAKER_00I mean Just do it.
SPEAKER_01Just let's do it.
SPEAKER_00What do you think you'd be, or who do you think you'd be if you weren't a dentist? If I was an alternative career.
SPEAKER_02An alternative career, probably a lawyer.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I could see you in a lawyer. Shop.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, no, um the funny story is that um I couldn't get uh initial after after uh high school, I didn't get into university quickly because I was not uh very into it, and I was a bit um not unsure what to do. And I remember that I I said to mom and dad, look, I'm going to study law. Uh and it was a bit of a funny reaction that I received, and I understood that probably law was not really uh from your family's reaction.
SPEAKER_00Why do you why do you think they didn't think law was for you?
SPEAKER_02I mean law, law probably, you know, in in my country is a long um career and very with a lot of uncertainty. Maybe you know, medical degrees are more structured.
SPEAKER_00And may maybe because you love people.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, probably.
SPEAKER_00You can't look after people as much in law.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00A bit more black and white, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Interesting. What were you like as a little boy?
SPEAKER_02I was a very hyperactive boy. I mean, no, very hyperactive. Uh probably this was due to the fact that I was receiving a lot of input from my family, you know, sports, sailing, music. Uh, I was very, very hyperactive. Uh I was not I was not sleeping much. Um, and I remember that I was uh very complicated with children, in the sense that I was very, very uh I was giving a lot of work to do to mom and dad. Very energetic. Very energetic, yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00Spirited. Spirited, yes. I don't know I can imagine it. Do you think as a little boy they'd imagine you'd be a dentist or no no one So you were exposed to everything music, sport, food? So you had every option, lots of input. Lots of input, yes, yes. That's uh the dream childhood. Freedom.
SPEAKER_02I I had a good uh childhood.
SPEAKER_00Uh uh.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Would you if you were lucky enough to have children of your own in the future, would you suggest dentistry to them as a career?
SPEAKER_02I would say that they if I if one day God allow me to have children, I would I would um what I would say to my to my kid is that they have to do what they what they want to. I mean uh I wouldn't I wouldn't encourage anything. I would uh I would give uh freedom, complete freedom. Um follow your passions. Follow your passion. I mean uh I mean if I had a daughter that uh she was she's saying dad I want to study music, fantastic, let's do it. Sounds great. Art, music, fashion. If she wants issue with us, if she wants to do dentistry, yes of course, but I would give complete uh complete uh freedom to my kids.
SPEAKER_00So you're an extrovert?
SPEAKER_02Am I? That's a question. I am an extrovert, but there are some circumstances which um I'm not.
SPEAKER_00Which circumstances?
SPEAKER_02Uh which are not very often, but you know, sometimes when you are with people that you feel that the connection is not great, you uh you feel a bit of uh weird um energy, then I don't um retreat a bit more. Pardon? You retreat a bit more.
SPEAKER_00I retreat. Like a snail. How do you balance everything? Do you think you work too much?
SPEAKER_02No, I don't think I work too much. I think I travel too much to work. Uh commuting takes it. Commuting um is quite uh problem. Um how do I balance? I try, I mean, living in a big city like London, I try to fit everything uh on the journey. So I bring my gym bag on my way back. Uh I don't come home, I just go directly to the gym. I try to to squeeze everything in the journey. I suppose this is uh what happens if you live in a big city?
SPEAKER_00London especially is hard. I feel like you you leave the house and most people have an hour's journey. Even when you're meeting a friend. By the time you think of like walk into the tube and yeah, it's it's tricky. Big cities are a different ball game. Have you ever had a case where it was you that made the clinical mistake? We all have, right? How did you how do you deal with that?
SPEAKER_02No, I mean a clinical mistake, yes. I mean, happen. Um what happened? Um I mean, I stay very open and honest. Uh I communicate um what happened to the patient and I try to fix it as the best as I can. Um mistakes uh happen in our job. I mean, we are not immune. Um what I think um the correct approach is is to be honest and transparent. And this is also what I teach to my students as well. That the first thing is to be honest, transparent, and admitting the mistake.
SPEAKER_00You teach as well?
SPEAKER_02I do, I do.
SPEAKER_00I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_02I do. I teach uh future specialists.
SPEAKER_00Oh, lovely. Do you enjoy the teaching side of things?
SPEAKER_02I do. I love the teaching, yeah, it's very good.
SPEAKER_00I'd like to be told by you.
SPEAKER_02Do you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think you'd be a great teacher. What makes a good student, Angelo?
SPEAKER_02A good student is someone that um is able to follow correctly what is uh is asked.
SPEAKER_00A good listener.
SPEAKER_02A good listener, but also someone that doesn't do too much and someone that comes to you and asking if for questions. When they don't ask, they usually there is a problem. When they ask too much, there is a problem as well.
SPEAKER_00So don't be scared of asking questions.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. It's very important, especially you know, we are dealing with clinical uh uh procedures, so it's very important that we have uh we check what they what they are doing.
SPEAKER_00But also to have some some level of initiative and get going.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Not be scared. You know, teaching the way I teach, we I mean we teach in a very safe environment where students are surrounded by um by lots of specialist consultants. So it's it's probably the best environment to learn of the clinical procedure. Student then they need to feel relaxed and comfort and confident, and we are there to to correct, supervise and and um refine the procedure basically.
SPEAKER_00Do you do anything in dentistry that isn't clinical? Really, mostly clinical, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02Mostly clinical, yes. Yes.
SPEAKER_00How do you deal with a patient when they're really stressed?
SPEAKER_02When the patient uh well, the first things uh when the patient is really stressed, the first things I do is I listen to the stress. And I'm saying this, although you know sometimes it can be very it's not easy, but I listen fully to what is this stress, what where this stress is coming from. And then I try to find a solution. People can be stressed for millions of things. Um and I see very often uh patients that they have they suffer from uh phobia, dental phobia, and are already stressed even from the from the door before getting to the chair. So a patient that is very stressed and needs to be listened well, and we need to understand very well where this test is coming from and see if we can treat safely. I always ask to myself, is it safe to do so? If yes, we do. If not, we don't, and we find another solution. There are a lot of solutions to fix it. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_00So gaining information before you start. 100%. Yes, yes. It is easy to kind of ignore it to a certain point, I think, and then you're halfway through and you think, gosh, I wish I'd never started this. I'm sure we've all been there. So you try and avoid that and go with proper planning, lots of chatting.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I give an example. You know, in the UK it's very popular the sedation. You know, we offer sedation to patients that they that are in need, for example, when they suffer from anxiety. And sometimes, you know, as a dental predictioner, sometimes we try to persuade a patient not to go for sedation for many reasons. Sedation, first of all, is a drug that goes in the system. And if you can avoid, it's definitely better for the patient. But there are some circumstances which there is a real need for sedation because the patient cannot tolerate dental treatment. It has happened to me that you know when I get to know the patient very well, the patient started to trust me more. We tried to do the procedure under sedation without sedation, but then I had to stop the procedure because the patient was not able to cope, and I wish I would have done under sedation before, you know? So. Management. Management, yes.
SPEAKER_00Has anyone given you any really good advice throughout your career? Or has there been somebody who stands out that mentored you in a good way or taught you something?
SPEAKER_02I mean in my career I had a few mentors. Probably they never gave me one single advice. They more show me how to work and how to work well. I am very grateful from um one of my mentors from Italy that probably the way I work today is very much a reflection on how he is working. I is he is uh he was probably um one of my first teachers and mentors, which I really really um which I'm really really grateful for. And then in the course of my of my career, I had many many people that they show me how to work. And I really remember this very nicely. I worked in Birmingham, the Queen Elizabeth Hospital in Maxfax. And the group of consultants there they were fantastic, all of them. And they were doing a very complicated operation. And I remember the way they were working together. And it was I was very fascinating the harmony that they had when they were working and dealing with this very complex stuff.
SPEAKER_00Some of them are like 16-hour operations.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And to me that experience is very well. It has remained very impressing. Myself, also because I assisted a lot of episodes which um probably were a bit borderline. In the terrain in the sense that you know Birmingham is very busy unit. Um very big unit that they they treat a lot of uh oncology was this or trauma or both?
SPEAKER_00Both. Both.
SPEAKER_02Both.
SPEAKER_00So it's uh SHO, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02DCT now they call it. I mean, like big big stuff, you know, big stuff. Even uh flap surgery? Flap surgery, but even something very sad, you know, like young people injury with a motorbike that they were not able to survive, you know. So something very, very intense for me was because you know I never faced this, you know. I see you, I see you huge.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Huge, like 30-40 bed. But what I was uh for me, what fascinated me is that everyone was uh you could you could feel all the people that they were to a very, very high level of uh quality, they were absolutely true. True professional, and also they were treating us uh very well. You know, when you have a consultant of the of that level that has got 30-40 years of experience and treat an SHO like a like an equal. Like an equal.
SPEAKER_00This is uh Everything you're explaining is exactly how I found my SHO year. I did the same in Sheffield. Massive teaching hospital. Probably I wouldn't say shouldn't have been allowed to be where we were, but we were exposed to things that you'd never think a dentist would be exposed to. But the they'd we'd be in the middle of a 18-hour operation or something, and you're looking at these consultants operating, and they'd say things after five hours where the SHO is just holding, we're holding something still. And they'd say, Fran, you haven't had a break. Do you want to go and use the bathroom, have a snack? And I think, uh, you haven't had a break. You're you're operating, I'm just holding something. But they were such gentlemen. I think when you've been exposed to that degree of operation, it puts things in perspective when we're moaning about oh, we've got another another patient squeezed in at lunchtime or something, and you think, well, comparing comparatively what we're doing is easy, right? I don't like to downplay it because what we're doing is complicated sometimes.
SPEAKER_02But but I'm glad that we both share this experience because um they should be paid like footballers, in my opinion. Yeah, no, a hundred percent.
SPEAKER_00I'm rarely in awe of of anybody in life, but those guys have all my admiration. Yeah, I already still do. When you're going up to ICU as well and checking on people who are that poorly, it's just a different um perspective. Puts things in perspective. Yeah. I think that's what we're both saying.
SPEAKER_02The life in general is yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, life is very precious. And the thing is with the MaxFects thing, when you're saying that, you know, a young person hasn't met it uh hasn't made it, we don't see that side of things in dentistry.
SPEAKER_01No, no, no.
SPEAKER_00Just think I think is where we differ to medics. One of my best friends is a training pediatrician, and the thing she tells me and she she says, Oh, you work so hard, and like then my job is very different to yours, and I think it's important to establish the difference.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, not a hundred percent.
SPEAKER_00Um, we have a very different Job. Important still, but I think it's it's very grounding for anyone to do a max faction. I'd recommend it to everybody. Let's round up a little bit, Angelo. Okay. Then we can eat. Do you think you'd still do dentistry if you won the lottery?
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Do you?
SPEAKER_02I do, yes. In the same way or um, not in the same way. Not in the same way, but definitely, yes. I mean, I'm very passionate about what I do. When I come back to when I come back home when I had a very good day, I'm very, you know, I'm thinking, yeah, I could do this, I could do that. Uh if I won the lottery, probably what I would do, I would try to do to have my own clinic. Not traveling anymore. And uh yeah, probably, yes. Yes.
SPEAKER_00One or two days a week. Then onto the yacht.
SPEAKER_02Ah, you're talking about a big lottery. A big, big lottery.
SPEAKER_00If you won big. If you won big. Big big.
SPEAKER_02Big big. Uh yeah, a couple of days.
SPEAKER_00And then let's uh do the final question. What advice do you wish you'd been given, or or what advice would you give yourself if you went right back to graduation day?
SPEAKER_02So what um wish I they were told telling me is to buy loops and a camera.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02Very specific immediately. Immediately. This is something that um I understood a bit later on. Um but the first things you have to do, finish graduating, you buy a very good pair of loops and a very nice camera, and you start using it every single day.
SPEAKER_00And that's for self-improvement, or you're looking at your own work over and over again to improve.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And the level of detail.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I don't know how I didn't I ever worked without loops.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, I started working with us when I started Me too.
SPEAKER_00I was like, I've just done a max fact year. No one's wearing loops. Why do I need loops? Now I think they should all get some loops. Thank you so much for coming on. So thank you for hosting. Ciao, Bella. Ciao.