Neutral Zone
Welcome to Neutral Zone!
A podcast about the people behind the Dentistry profession.
I'm Dr Fran Brelsford and I invite you to meet a different dentist with me on each episode.
We chat with the humans behind the drills and the instagram profiles.
No hustle, no ego, no clinical chat.
Just good old fashioned conversation, new questions, and genuine connection.
Episodes dropped on Wednesdays.
Because there’s more to life than teeth.
Neutral Zone
Nicola Gore
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Meet Nicola.
A true multi-hyphenate in dentistry, Niola runs her own practice, teaches at King’s Dental School,
and co-authored Dentistry in a Nutshell, now in its second edition.
A mentor to countless young dentists, shes about to train her 30 th vocational trainee and co-
founded the British Iranian Dental Association with her husband.
In short: a real Wonder Woman of dentistry
@dentalcosmeticss
I'm Nicola Gore and this is Neutral Zone.
SPEAKER_01Hi Nicola.
SPEAKER_00Hi Fran.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for being here.
SPEAKER_00Oh, thank you for having me. It's so nice to be here with you today.
SPEAKER_01You've already given me some treats and a coffee.
SPEAKER_00It's for a good cause.
SPEAKER_01I'm right at home.
SPEAKER_00Enjoy.
SPEAKER_01How much of your identity do you think is tied to dentistry, Nicola?
SPEAKER_00Well, you know what? Since the age of 18, I've been doing dentistry, right? And I'm not going to tell you how old I am. So now that I'm 25, no joking. So you can imagine that I have been sort of eating, breathing, and doing dentistry my whole life. And so I would say, you know what, dentistry is intertwined in my body, in my brain, in my um everything within me. And there is never a moment where I'm free of dentistry. Dentistry is within me. And I can't leave it. It's just like it's embedded completely. And that's how I feel about dentistry. So I can't like tell you that it's a separate um entity to my life. It's not. It's your whole world. It's my whole world. Because since I've been 18 and since coming to England at that age and doing A-levels, all my thought was to get into dental school. And uh when I got it, I was so grateful and felt so privileged to be studying at Vice Hospital. And I think that moment was the turning point where I thought dentistry is going to be my life.
SPEAKER_01Oh.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So you moved to straight to London? Yes. At 60?
SPEAKER_00So I was uh I turned I moved to London at um in 1987, and I was um studying to do my A levels because I did my O levels in Iran. But also there's a twist to the story because I was born in England. I was born in Bristol. Yeah, and um I was in Bristol till the age of four because my parents, uh both being in the medical profession, uh, they were working in various hospitals, so then um subsequently we moved um to Iran because Iran had a good life then, and um, you know, we were living like Europeans. So my parents moved there, they opened up various hospitals, and uh my dad is an orthopedic well was he passed away sadly, he was an orthopedic surgeon, my mom um a consultant midwife, and that's how we just stayed in Iran because life was good. And then the revolution hit, um, there was Iran-Iraq war, a bit similar to the current situation, and um that's when we decided to return. For us, for we were we are three sisters for us to go to university. So that's how we came back, and to be honest with you, never looked back on our life.
SPEAKER_01Have all three sisters gone into medical?
SPEAKER_00Uh so no, no. Um I'm a dentist. Uh, one of my middle sisters, an electronic engineer, and my baby sister is a lawyer. Are you the eldest, Nicola? I'm the eldest. Oh, yes. Yes, and uh, they've both married dentists. Really? Yes. So one So your whole world really is dentistry. Is dentistry. It's my whole world is dentistry. And you know, I used to work six or seven days a week. Uh since COVID, I got more clever. I decided not to work uh my Saturdays and have my Saturdays free. Uh but up to COVID time we're working quite hard, long hours, or sometimes 70, 80 hours a week. I used to put in clinical. Just clinical dentistry. Wow. And obviously having a trainee in the practice, working between two different practices. Uh, you know, it was it was hard work, hardcore dentistry. Like I would say I'm I'm quite a wet-handed dentist. So, you know, um my bread and butter is general dentistry and I do everything. Now I've got a bit more clever, I choose and I refer. But up to I would say 10 years ago, I wasn't doing that. I was doing everything myself, including implants. Really? Yeah, so I would never refer anything out. Uh, but now I refer a lot, the majority of the work out, like specialist stuff.
SPEAKER_01Working a bit smarter. Yeah. Smarter, not harder. Yeah, yeah. You mentioned um being a VT trainer. Yeah. For those of uh the listeners who don't know you, what other pies do you have your hand in in dentistry? Because there are a lot. A lot, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So um I became a VT trainer, or we call it dental foundation trainer, uh, or educational supervisor since uh 2004. And um since then I've had um cumulative number of 30 trainees that I've trained. Yes, because some years I doubled it up. So some years I had two trainees or three trainees. Uh so um I'm actually on my 30th trainee now. Yeah, which is thank you, thank you, which is you know, um amazing, and I love it. And uh to be honest, some people think I do it for money. There's no money in it, there is no money. It's just like I feel like I can empower someone else's life and give them motivation to continue because dentistry is a hard job. Yeah, dentistry is not an easy job, and um, you know, for for even the best in the field, you know, we get anxiety, um, you know, we get we worry about stuff. A lot of us are very conscientious, we worried about GDC. So, you know, I feel like I can be their backup for the rest of their life. And they can yes, of mom or grandma, whatever. Yeah, but yeah, you know, that that nicely led me into uh dentistry in a nutshell, which is the book that um Robbie and I published in 2021. And that book um has played a major role in my life. Um, it opened up a lot of uh doors to many pies. Uh and um, you know, I I enjoyed writing that, uh, but it got to a stage where I thought there's not enough chapters in this. I need, you know, the help of other people to, and that's when I asked you uh when you were uh you know with your biomimetic dentistry and all your skill set, uh whether you and Stuart could be helping us with the chapter, and you both agreed, and I'm so grateful. So uh that uh hopefully is going to be launched soon, Fran, and thank you for all your hard work. Welcome. Um dentistry in a nutshell 2 coming out. Um, and then another thing which um going back to all the empowerment that I want to give out was um actually founding uh British Iranian Dental Association, which is the first one in UK, you never had one. We've had British Iranian medical, and everyone has been under that umbrella, but now we have a specific British Iranian Dental Association, which me and my husband we founded, um, and um uh I am the president. And we've got almost 3,000 members. Yeah, so which is really good, and I feel it's like a homely place where people can come to me, uh, discuss stuff, jobs. Um, a lot of people are overseas graduates, they want um, you know, help and support. So uh it's been a safe place for many British Iranian dentists, and um, you know, we do beat up breakfast clubs, we do um uh gala's and events and stuff like that. So that's been another big major pie in my life. And um, on top of that, um, obviously, you know, everything to do with dentistry in a nutshell um regarding opening up a platform, uh, we have an app for it. It's called Diane Club, and soon to be released uh Diane Academy, which um I would love you to be part of it. So um, and also I'm a tutor in Kings, which I love. I love being a tutor in Kings.
SPEAKER_01Well, Nick, I'm listening to you, Nick. Yeah, how many days a week do you work clinical here?
SPEAKER_00Uh here I'm two days in Totridge. Two days uh so since September my diary changed. So two days in Tortridge, two days in Harrow Weald, where I do my training with my uh with my VT, and then I have one day in Kings. And then all the evenings are dedicated to Zoom with Rabia, going through the book. Uh, you know, we zoom with our various uh um authors of our new uh book and also uh like you know with the editor, uh with the publishing company. Uh writing a book is not a joke, it takes over your life seriously.
SPEAKER_01I only imagine, even with a tiny little editing bits of a chapter, but yeah, the whole thing must be just so much admin.
SPEAKER_00Just writing an article for a journal can be so daunting, let alone writing a dental book, which might go around if we're lucky enough, around everywhere, and then you know what people can pick on it. So and it's gotta be factual, it's gotta be accurate, it's gotta be correct. Um, so uh that's why I you know it's taken a while for for Diane 2 to be published. Uh but it's we're getting there, we're getting there. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Diane, so dentistry in a nutshell, the textbook. Where did the idea come from? What made you want to write a textbook for dentists?
SPEAKER_00So um the idea came from the fact that um I'm a trainer, um, educational supervisor, and uh every year, just imagine 30 trainees, every year you're teaching them the same thing: jaw registration, um, primary impressions, secondary impressions, crown prep, bridge prep, treatment planning, medical emergencies, um, oral surgery, surgical procedures, implants, ortho, you know, assessments, guidelines, knife, SD sep, da da. You know, it's just long, endless. And I thought, you know what, I'm gonna make my life easy. I'm gonna write um, like for each um topic, I'm gonna write flow charts just purely to help my trainees. So I started writing flow charts um for bridges, for crowns, for so I could then say, today we're doing a crown prep, for instance, an Emacs crown prep. What do we consider from patients' medical history to you know what type of local anesthetic we're giving? Have you checked the occlusion, etc.? So I started writing it, and once um I did about three or four chapters, I thought this is really good. And then I was um I was just introduced to Instagram then by my kids, my daughters, Jasmine and Lily. And um, they made the name Dental Cosmetics for me. Uh, and they said, Mom, you know, you need to be on Instagram. Like I was on YouTube, but they said YouTube, not many people engage with it, so you have to join Instagram. So they made my page and everything, I think 2018 or 2019. And then um I saw um this person, this dentist, Robbia, on Instagram. And every time I opened Instagram, there was no stories there, it was just posts. She would be discussing an x-ray, or she would be, and I knew she was like thousands of years younger than me, but she was very motivated. So I said um to myself, let me let me message her on Instagram. So I got Jasmine or Lily, one of them, to message, because I don't know how to even use Instagram. And then I said, you know, I'm working on a project, why don't you come over? And you know what? The same day she came over, it was like it was meant to be. She came over, and even despite the fact that her husband said, Why are you going to meet a random woman on Instagram? Like she got the Robbia goes, because she lives close, she's close. So she we messaged each other and then we started chatting, and that's how just the book evolved. And then COVID had very organic, and then me and uh Robbia just really sort of even though we're thousands of years in age apart, but we hit it on very well, yeah, and um you know her her youth and her youthful experience and my sort of more senior experience all intertwined together, yeah, and it it actually is a good mix because I've seen those from her perspective, she'll see things from my perspective, and that's how the books become a good solid book because it's not just one way of thinking, and um, you know, we've got different discipline ways of thinking about it.
SPEAKER_01You know, when you're a VT trainer, I know there's the training days the VTs go off to, but yeah, are you given like a curriculum you have to teach or any guidance?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so we have a portfolio, a portfolio of evidence where we have to do a lot of work-based assessments. So for instance, we do something called DOPS, direct observation techniques, we do uh something called mini-kex, so which is like we we go into the room and we just observe them from the moment they're talking to the patient to doing all the checkup examination. Um so we have a lot of work-based assessments to do on the portfolio, and there's a certain number they have to achieve, and then they have to target that work-based assessments to different competencies. For instance, oral surgery, for instance, restorative prosodontics. So that's how um then we end up doing a whole lot of work with them. So then the work will not just be based on one thing. Um, and then that portfolio of evidence is what they um get um actually, they pass based on that. So if they don't have enough evidence in the portfolio, it means they're weak and they can't pass uh their foundation. Yeah, I think at your time you might have had written booklet. Maybe. Which year did you qualify?
SPEAKER_012013.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think uh then it was all written. No, yes, it was written. It was in a folder. And now it's all online. Remember. Or maybe you didn't do it, Frank. But those days there wasn't so so so strict. They weren't so strict those days. Now it's really strict. Um, so everything has to be evidenced. And this evidence stays till the rest of their life. Interesting. So um, you know, it goes back, everything goes back on this. And there are um some uh trainees who actually don't pass the year and have to do an extra six months.
SPEAKER_01Ah, yeah, and maybe that does ring the bell actually at the time. I must have done something.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, depends which leaner you are. If you were up north, they're a bit less strict. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so maybe they're a bit less strict uh than London. Maybe. Yeah, a bit chilled. It's colder.
SPEAKER_01It is colder up there, for sure. What what has made the best student out of those 30? What are the qualities you think make a good VT? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00If you have studied, studied dentistry, you've already got the quality. Yeah? Oh, okay. Because you have put five years of your life into a career which is not easy. You've managed your hand skills, your dexterity, um, you know, communication, you've practiced a lot of stuff, and not on not just that, to be able to balance your work and balance dental school. Dental school's not easy. You know, I teach in Kings now and I see how they, you know, they they've got quite a lot to do, quite a lot of evidence to fill, quite a lot of practical work to do. They don't do as much practical work as we did when we qualified, but they have to do sort of a few bits to pass and their case presentation. So I feel whoever who qualifies as a dentist or is in dental school has passed the third year, is actually there, is motivated, is dedicated and is there to to go and become a good dentist. But I think what um separates the dentist from each other afterwards is the mentorship. So if you um don't have a good mentor afterwards, that's really gonna affect how what um route you're gonna take. Because um I always say similar to a plant. You know, the plant is nurtured in in in, I don't know, in a garden, I don't know, in in a uh wherever you buy plants from, and then uh you go and buy your plant and you bring it home. But if you don't look after it, if you don't water it, if you don't put it in somewhere which is gets the sun, uh then that plant's gonna die. And um any any career is a bit like that. If you don't have a good role model and a mentor after you qualify, then um you know what, things could go pair-shaped. You could actually lose the potential to be a good dentist, you could actually get disappointed in the career. Because it it is very it's a very tough career. I mean, let's be totally honest. I I I know that on Instagram people maybe make it look so wow, before and afters and you know, um things and glamour and things we were discussing, but you know what? In reality, it is a tough job. Yeah. You know, uh, you know, just imagine doing a root canal on an upperright seven.
SPEAKER_01On someone really nervous.
SPEAKER_00Someone really nervous who can't open their mouth wide.
SPEAKER_01And you're ten minutes behind when you get them in the chair or something.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And they're not numbing up, and you know that they're paying, and you know that you want to deliver, because uh, you know, let's face it, that we all if you're a dentist now, we've got a conscious and want to work according to our conscious. We're all scared of the GDC, you know, and on top of that, we've got a patient in the chair. You know, we don't want to do any harm to that patient. So, um, you know, so we we put all that stress into our body. All of that goes into our body. But if we don't have anyone to come and pat us on the back and say, you did a great job today, Fran. Well done. Well done. And forget about how much money you earned, but just that Fran, every single patient who walked out of the surgery today was saying how amazing you you and your nurse were and how well you did your job.
SPEAKER_01You're such a lovely VT trainer. I don't know if I've ever had this. Oh, you know, you know, it's important. Who's mentored you then going through your career?
SPEAKER_00Oh, those days there was no mentors. There were honestly, I struggled. Yeah. I struggled. I mean, you can imagine. Um, I came, even though I was born here, my English wasn't perfect. It still isn't. I disagree. And um, I had to uh really learn a lot of stuff, and those days biology wasn't compulsory to get into dental school, so I had chemistry, physics, and maths. So when I went into dental school, the first year was horrendous. I I failed every single subject. Did you? Every single subject I failed, and I had to pass it in summer. So I was like, I was the same. Well yeah. Oh wow, so that makes us good dentists then. More human. Oh well. So um I I don't know, by the grace of God, I passed every single subject in the summer, and I moved myself to year two. Um, in year two, I struggled again to the point where uh they pulled me over and they said that, you know, Nicola, we don't think this industry is for you, you don't have the manual dexterity, you know. And this was just working on Phantom Head in the first term. And, you know, we're looking at students that we want to ask them to look at a different subject. And I'm like, you mean you're telling me to leave? And I'm like, no way, I've studied so hard. Yeah, A levels. Then passing the first, yeah, failing, passing, getting into the second year, I literally dragged myself in. So I went home, spoke to my parents of my dad, uh, obviously as a consultant, orthopedic surgeon who was reading the B BMJ. And actually, there was an article on manual dexterity, and he said, he cut the article out, I remember it so well, and he gave it to me and he said, Go and give this to the person, which I'm not gonna name him, he's still working, uh, go and give it to the person who said that you don't have the manual dexterity and tell him that manual dexterity is acquired. Interesting, and he needs to be teaching you rather than criticizing you.
SPEAKER_01It's such a bold statement, especially what you're 19, 20 year olds. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And if you don't have the support, like the the family support, yeah, to back you up, you would probably leave. You know, a lot of people left. A lot of 20 people left in my year. Really? How to family starting? So we were hundred. We were hundred and twenty people left, and those days it was just guys. So guys were separate from Kings and UCH. So it was just guys' hospital, and we were hundred and twenty people left. That's a lot. It was a lot because guys had this reputation of being the best in the country, so they thought, okay, eliminate, eliminate, eliminate. So after that, um, I had um um the person said to me, my tutor said that fine, we'll give you another tab and let's see what you do in this term. And in that term, my group, we were 10 of us in the group. Honestly, I owe them so much because they helped me so much. I'm gonna cry now. They helped me so much, you know. Every time I was cutting something or beveling something, or uh, we had to go. Into the plaster room to pour something. There were one who was behind me. Come on, do it this way. No, we're doing it this way. No, we're doing it that way. We'd study together. They pulled me through to the third year. And then from the third year, things settled. And those days, uh, dentistry was four years. Who was it? I didn't know. So we were the last batch to start to be uh a four-year degree. But you can imagine how much we did in that four years. We did uh like 20 root canals to get signed off for a root canal test, 20 crowns, and we had to make our crowns. We had to make our dentures. There was nothing that you know we would just send off like they do now. We had to literally sit in the lab and make it. Make your own crowns. But that's what makes you a better dentist. Well, you understand that side, don't you?
SPEAKER_01Sending your own what you need to give the technology. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00And I understand if something doesn't fit, why is it not fitting? Yeah, and it's not it's not necessarily the lab. Exactly. And why is it, do I have to send it back or can I adjust it in the chair? Yeah. A majority of the time I adjust it in the chair. And in in in dentistry in a nutshell textbook, based on my own experience, I have got, you know, uh two tables, tables for prosthetics and tables for crown and bridge, uh, that um I show how things uh you know are not going well and how you're going to make it well, rather than sending it back to the troubleshooting, rather than sending it back to the lab because that's time consuming. And patients don't like it. Time is money. Exactly. Time is money, and you know, and they don't want to go back and forth. People are paying and they want to have their work done straight away.
SPEAKER_01Everyone's busy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Are you still friends with that group?
SPEAKER_00Yes. We're going to we're going to a reunion soon. 8th of May, we have a ball, and it's a King's Ball, and it's because now it's all King, under the umbrella of King. So we're going to a ball in uh uh in Park Lane, one of the hotels. Oh nice. So we've got three tables for my year group. Yeah, so it'd be lovely to see them. I am in touch with most of them. To be honest, Instagram. Yeah, it made it so easy to find people. I found you on Instagram. Yes. Didn't I? So, you know, it makes it easy. Instagram has got its good place and it's got its bad place. You know, it depends how you use it and what you're looking for. But um, you know, uh social media for me has been good.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. The positives have outweighed the negatives for me as well. What do you think are the negatives of it?
SPEAKER_00Of social media. So I think it depends what age you are. Um the younger group, I would say the Gen Z do struggle with Instagram. And they do struggle with posting their work. Um majority of them don't post it until it's perfect. Nothing is perfect. I was gonna say what is perfect.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean, who sets that standard for perfect perfectionism? You know, even posting not before and after work, but posting a a photo of themselves, they don't want to do. And I'm not saying you should, I'm not a promoter of it, but what I'm trying to say is make make people to feel a bit insecure about themselves. And that is not the good thing. That is not good.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I even I don't like putting pictures of myself on mostly teeth.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Even now I'm behind the camera.
SPEAKER_00But I mean, I'm not a big promoter that we should be posting every day or stories every day. It depends how you feel. You know, if you feel like you can handle it, you do it. But if you feel it's too much and is affecting your peace, then don't do it. Yes, and there will be mandatory. Yes, it'd be moments where I feel, oh, I need to protect my peace. I need to protect I don't want everyone to know what I'm doing, where I'm going, what's what's happening in my life. And you want to protect your and you want to have a boundary, which is fine.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. The the busier I am at work clinically, the less I'm posting. Yeah. Which is I think people think it's the opposite. Yeah. So everything is has a degree of uh make to it. Yeah. See, the days where I probably look or the weeks I look, the busiest posting the most is where I've got a gap where I can actually do it. Exactly. So I have a rule that I do not go I do not post posts out of work time. Yeah. I don't want it to take up any time.
SPEAKER_00They're just quick. That's a really good rule, Frank. Yeah. Because then you can carry on with the rest of your life.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Life is not just social media. Life is No, it's not real. No. And there's so much in life where you can enjoy just walking in the park. I see people walking in the park and their head is in their phone. So what what's the point? Sit on a sofa while you're in the park. Yeah. Isn't it? Look up. Look up, check what's going on. Look at that dog running, or look at that bird, or look at the sky. You know, we don't pay attention to detail anymore. And uh we are not present anymore. Nobody's present. Everybody is like in their own cuckoo land. Yeah. You know, even in a restaurant, you you have a look at people. Everyone's got their phones.
SPEAKER_01It's true. It one of the things I've liked about doing this podcast is you actually sat for an hour with a person having a proper conversation. That's right. And it's almost lost. You you have the odd bit, even with your best friends. Yeah. Um, I interviewed one of my very best friends on here a few episodes ago, and I knew things I know things about him that I never knew and I've known him for four years. Exactly. And uh I think that's very sad. It is sad because we don't listen. Yeah, we don't.
SPEAKER_00We don't we don't listen. There's too much going on. And also when we're each other, we talk and then we jump from one conversation to the other, and then then you know, a text comes, then it it you know, it messes with your head if it's not a good text, or if it's a bad text, or if it's something that you don't want to look at it then, you know, and all this does affect our um mental health. 100%. Everyone has got some issue. There is no single person now that doesn't is not worried about something. Yeah, and if you think that person is happier than that, they're not. No, it's just maybe it's an illusion, uh, or maybe it's just that Instagram making it look like they're so happy. Uh but whereas they're not happy, they're just posting what's happy.
SPEAKER_01What they think looks happy.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01When you're not a dentist, then Nicola, when you are walking through the park, what lifts you up? What do you do to look after yourself?
SPEAKER_00If you're a busy lady, yes, I'm very busy, uh, Fran. It's um, I mean, um, since my father passed away, um, I have been very, very busy till COVID. Very busy because we opened up two squat practices. This Totti was a squat in 2009, um, Harrow was a squat in 2002. You know, uh, we've worked hard for compliance, staffing, dentists, you know, materials. On top of that, our own life, raising kids. Um, you know, it's been a huge uphill um struggle. And on top of that, like, you know, I was trying to get into education, so I have to do my PG certs and diplomas and whatnot. And so it has been a struggle to say the least. Um, however, um, since COVID hit, I decided that it was so nice to have the three months off, even though none of us relaxed, and we either were baking or wiping stuff or thinking of how to open up our dental practices, and that's and I I worked hard to um put protocols in place for a lot of dentists through Pandora and through BEDA, um, British Iranian Dental Association, and we took that to legislation, and that's how we managed to open up the practice. I was heavily involved in that to set up the protocols for getting returning back to work on the 8th of June. Yes. Nationally. Yes, nationally. So I was determined. Yes, no, I was determined. We have to get back. But you weren't baking. Yeah, I wasn't baking. I was zooming every day, every single day. And uh my friends who got involved with me now blamed me. They said, you know, let us enjoy our three months because I was looking at PP level one, two, three. This is what we need. I was making videos in the practice, sending it to everyone. This is how the patient enters from one place, leaves the other place. I didn't know that. Yeah, so through somewhere called Pandora, uh, which is a group of like I think we were 100 dentists all together, and then Bida as well, British Iranian Dental Association. I helped them, you know, move their practices forward. That's how British Iranian Dental Association was born. Because that's I got a group of British Iranian dentists together, and then because there were so many, I said, well, let's just make it an association. We patented it and uh got everything set up as an association. After COVID, I um decided that this is I have to look after my own health. Um, my father passed away, and my mom was on her own. So um I decided to make my life smaller. And uh children were going to university by then. Um, my daughters, one of them was in Brighton, and what the other one went to Birmingham to study. And um, sort of I had a little bit more freedom. So I decided that I'm gonna make my life small and condense. So we moved in with my mom. Um so my mom wouldn't be on her own, uh, so I could be with her all the time, cook together, eat together, you know, be with her. And um I decided to focus on my own health. So started going to the gym more and started um training more. And uh, because I wanted to be home evenings with my mom to have dinner, well, sometimes I had a late patient, I needed to stay at work, so I decided I'll go to the gym in the mornings. Before that. Yeah, so now every morning, not every morning, four times a week, I'm in the gym at 6 30 a.m. Yeah. That's when I do my training. Yeah, and it's good. You know, I come out, I do the getting there is hard, trust me. Waking up in the dark, it's cold, it's miserable. You've slept late the night before because I've been zooming with Rabia or my authors or whatever. Uh, but um, I wake up, I go to the gym, I come out, um, there's an ID, I do majority of my food shop there. Then I go to the Turkish uh supermarket, I do some more shopping there, I go and get my coffee, sit in the car, and drive to Harrow Wild if I'm going to Harrow Wild, if I'm going to Totrish, and go to Totrish. But by 8:30, I've done everything.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I've done my grocery shopping, everything's done. And then that's why I go to work with a chilled mind and empty head that I have nothing to worry about apart from today's task in hand. Yeah. Exactly. So after that, I have no agenda to get anywhere. But so going back to your question, we diverted a lot, is that exercise has become a big thing in my life. And all, you know, and um in uh I and for anything I do, I have to have an aim and objective. And um, I just don't like to do it randomly. So my first aim and objective was to lose weight and get fit. Um, then after that, I thought I need another aim. So then I decided uh to look into higher so my daughter introduced me to it. Again, my daughters, they push me to do stuff and they don't do it themselves. And then I decided to take on HIROX and I trained for that um quite a lot, went to Greece to train, ended up with a broken toe, playing paddle, and then I I and then I registered uh in December last year for my first HIROX. I did that with a friend, and then um after that I just got the uh bug. I thought I won't do it again. So I registered, I did it two days ago again. Oh congratulations. My second high rocks with another friend, um, with Coco, which she's a dentist as well. And um, you know what? Um, that's been my my thing now. Uh fitness, fitness, pilates. Um, you know, this is what I do now. And then um, my other thing outside clinical dentistry is education.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I love it.
SPEAKER_01I think it makes sense when you're saying your journey, why you then want to help others. Yeah. Especially put on so early as well.
SPEAKER_00So early. Yeah. But you know what? Um the secret I'm so glad they did that because that made me what I am now. If I had a cushy university time, I wouldn't have been this driven.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, I think you get the drive when you fail.
SPEAKER_01I think I agree with you. It's not wanting to prove a point is probably the wrong way, but somewhere in you you think I'm gonna show you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm gonna show you. And it's so interesting you say that because the same guy who actually told me to leave dental school was the one who examined me in Eastman for my thesis for my M Clindent. Really? In Prosodontics. And I knew my thesis back to front. I had practiced it with all my we had uh two other Joe Bata and Fortis Malas were my in my year. We were the second batch of M. Clintent in Prosodontics. Really? In Queen Mary, but he was joint with Eastman then. I mean, we had like bounced back questions so much, we knew it so well. So when I went in and I saw him, I froze and I thought, oh my god, for all these people, why is it him examining me? Uh but I pulled myself together and I said, Nicola Gore, you know this because this is your thesis. Yeah. And then when when I finished and we got um pass on the same day, they tell you whether you pass or fail, your thesis. And he goes, It would have been a shame if you had left dentistry. And I was like, No thanks to you. Oh dear. Yeah, I think um, you know, if you have had a few falls and a few setbacks, then nothing you become unstoppable.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Nothing can stop you. Not nothing, you know, uh people can always try to hurt you or bring you down, but back of your mind you build that resilience and you just think life is so short. I don't care what other people think of me.
SPEAKER_01Especially I yeah, I don't think I think it's too early to say something like that to anyone.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. How do you know they're gonna make a good dentist or something?
SPEAKER_01I don't know what's going on in your life at the same time.
SPEAKER_00Exactly who you are and what you what your aim is, what your ambition is. How did you get to that point?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, and that's why I never make a judgment on anyone unless I see what their journey has been. Yeah, I agree. And I've had a lot of trainees that um have had a lot of problems. Uh they call it neurodiversities now, um, so I had a lot of problems, and I've and they've become the best dentists. Whereas they didn't have any confidence in themselves, maybe the team also brought them down, but you know what? They've become the best dentists, they've become confident, they know what their weaknesses are, they know what their strengths are, and based on that, and and my advice to anyone young starting in in a field of dentistry or any career is that know what your weaknesses and strengths are.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, know your strengths.
SPEAKER_00You know, even write it down. And and you know, I I really believe in Venn diagrams. I do that, I do that all the time, and I I've taught my children to do it. You know, um that like write down what's what what this you are in the middle, and what are your aims for this year for 2026? Write it down. It could be very trivial, like I want to learn to bake a cake, for instance. It could be that, or it could be I want to look into how to trade, yeah. Or I want to do a master's degree, you know. But if you don't put that in your subconscious mind, it'll never happen. It's like like writing a to-do list the night before, right? So if I have a day off and I don't write a to-do list, my day off will be so useless and aimless. I will do nothing. And then I think to myself, I should have just gone to work. I didn't do anything today. But if I write a list, a to-do list, then honestly, I do over and above that. So life is like that. You know, you need to um write things down, your aim and objective of what you want to be. Maybe you don't know yet, but the more you write down, you will know what why you're here.
SPEAKER_01Taking that time to think, like how often do we sit down and think, what do I want? Exactly. Or just stop in time. Because we just kind of rap race, aren't you? Yeah. Routine and in a rut sometimes. I think that's uh great advice.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you're right, Fran. It's like, you know, if I tell you today, like uh Fran, uh, shall we go somewhere? And like you'll say, Oh, let's go to Birmingham, let's go to Cotswold. But we have no plan. Yeah, we'll end up just sitting here. But if we have a plan, say today we're going to Birmingham, all we need to do is just find the route.
SPEAKER_01I think this is the the eldest uh daughter in us both, though. Yeah, waggly. I hate it when you you're trying to make plans with someone, they're like, Yeah, I don't mind, whatever, whatever timing. Oh, I'm free in the afternoon. Like, no, let's do one o'clock. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Pacific, yeah.
SPEAKER_00You need to be in charge. Control. Yeah, absolutely. But that's what I like about you, Fran. No, but seriously, you are, you know, you are very good in you're a good organized person. You're really good at returning texts and messages. And I love that in people. You know, it means that you're dependable. I can depend on you. Like if I need something, I know Fran will be there. Oh. You know, and I know that you're probably busy, you just probably just saw a patient, but you thought, okay, let me just answer this text quickly. It takes two seconds. But whereas there are some people that you message them and days and days, and those people I can't rely on.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I agree. The thing is nowadays, you're not telling me someone's not seeing your message. We're on our phones constantly. All the time. It takes two seconds. If I'm too busy, I'll say now up to the neck in it. Let me get back to you at five if that's okay or something. But exactly. But you've responded. Yeah, and at least there's a back and forth. Exactly. Yeah, you can't get anything done. You can't write a book without people replying. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00You can't you can't run anything. You can't run your business, you can't do anything without you know, you need, and that's another important thing. You know, be on it. You know, I know that all of us we procrastinate. We all do. But we need to find a way to get out of this system. Otherwise, it'll take over our life. And we need to be on it. If you do it now, then it's done. It's like loading a dishwasher. Don't put in the sink, just put in the dishwasher straight away. It's finished. Yeah, you don't have to worry about it.
SPEAKER_01I think when you're talking about that actually, I think that is dentistry, is is doing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I see a lot of people hesitating all the time. And unless you throw yourself in and get your hands wet, like you said before, you can't learn. You've got to do it. Just do it. You have to throw yourself in. It's the only way to learn. There's that like people talk about learning curves, and I've been thinking about that more and more with um when you first start learning industry as well. Is from my looking back at my group and peers and things, the ones that did the most at the beginning are the ones that have the head start.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But you gotta not be scared.
SPEAKER_00No, no, exactly. Yeah, but also doing too much from the beginning, I don't agree with that either. So a lot of my trainees say, Oh, should I go and do this course? Should I do that course? I said, Look, what is your aim? In VT, they're thinking. Oh no, I don't know that means in VT or straight after.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Even straight after. Oh, shall I go and observe this dentist? Or this dentist is really good. Shall I go and observe? I said, listen to me. You have to write down what is it you want. Are you heading towards teaching, being a consultant, uh, education, or do you want to be a really good associate? Only not interested in extra qualification, or do you want to have maybe a qualification on the side? So you have so many pathways you can take, but you need to know what you want. And you're not gonna know that now. Yeah. Because you're just like learning the basics. So give yourself a year, become a good associate, work as an associate, really good, do your mistakes, do everything. Yeah, you know, uh and working on the NHS is not a bad thing. No, I learned all my dentistry on the NHS.
SPEAKER_01Me too. I I was the last to leave. I did um the last to leave of my group. And I was probably technically most qualified on paper. Yeah. But I had in my head that there was a level I wanted to be at before I could charge people. Yes, exactly. Private dentistry is expensive. How many years did you do? Um from VT onwards, eight or nine? Oh wow, you did quite a lot.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you did a lot of time. Full time, yeah. Um that's really good, Fran. And that's why you made I'm not saying under the NHS made your mistakes, but you were not worried that you're charging people tons of money and not producing the work you need to produce and getting complaints. Okay. So you were doing things I'd very well overdeliver than under deliver.
SPEAKER_01I think it's quite ballsy to go out into private practice with one unit. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I don't know how they would do it, but um, like yeah, it's good for all. Then you can, but you Definitely need minimum, in my opinion, two years to work under the NHS to give a little back. Firstly, yes. Look, you you your majority of your of the universe, even though you took a loan out, uh, but it is uh government funded and taxpayer money, heavily subsidized. So somebody who does a degree, say maths, pays the same amount as someone who does medicine or dentistry. Uh so you they're paying towards your degree. So in return, you have to give back a little.
SPEAKER_01And um, it's very important to I think you think that at uni we had a late uh a girl in our halls doing theology, and she was probably in three hours a week. And at the time, you know, you're so jealous, aren't you? Because you just want you're tired and whatever. Then you think the amount I'm paying per lecture compared to this girl, and we've got the same fees is outrageous. Outrageous, exactly.
SPEAKER_00It really is. Yeah, it is. And so give a little back NHS, work under the NHS, um, find yourself a good role model. I don't have a role model, I had to figure everything out myself. Um, and the people who qualified at my around my time was the same. But I think my uh role model was my dad, yeah definitely my mom and dad. Yeah, they supported me 100%, and then after that, Matt, my husband. Uh, but uh before that, I was just figuring out myself. Oh, this friend did masters. I should do masters. It wasn't like, oh, should I? But the the funny thing is, I started thinking of masters and everyone followed me. Um and then I I was working in Australia for a year. I did two years um NHS, I did one year foundation training, VT, I did uh two years in hospital, I did Max Fax, I did general dentistry, and then I did Max Fax, and then I um did general dentistry again, then went to Australia, and I kept applying for master's degrees, and then that's when um I got into M Clintent.
SPEAKER_01It's very similar to my pathway, you know. Very similar. You did the same DCT. Um I did VT and then a year and a bit of Maxfax SHO back into general, and I knew I missed restorative and Maxfax, but I loved Maxfax, nearly went and did it. Did you and then came down to London to do a restorative master's at Eastman part-time?
SPEAKER_00Oh, so similar. Yeah, very, very similar. So yeah, and um, I think after that, um, you just other people, non-dentists, even come into your life and become your role model. But um, I had an older dentist who was working with me in boots. Boots dental care was a corporate practice. When I finished my master's in clean dent, I went to work for boots, and uh, this guy, uh Dr. Anmar Omar, he had just recently sold his practice and came to work for boots. By the way, boots doesn't exist anymore, they're just opticians now, but they are dentists as well. And he came to work and he said, Oh, Nicola, you know, I've sold my practice and I'm moving to Australia. However, I have bought a computer shop, which I want to turn it into a dental practice. I've got D1 for it uh from the council, but I want to move. Do you want a computer shop? Do you want to rent it from me? And that's how it started. Really? Yeah. And every day I was heavily pregnant with my first uh daughter, Jasmine. And every day, like uh uh like a double glazing salesman, he would be at my door with his laptop. Look, these are the figures you could be earning. This and I had no idea. You know, we don't have any idea about um about figures, do we, as a dentist? They don't teach us that. Especially as an associate, you know. We don't have to know profit and loss. We don't I still don't know it. Don't tell my accountant. So every day was turning up. This is real potential earning for this, you know, because you squat practice, you don't have a big loan, da da da. Anyway, he sold he's he sold the idea to me, and that's how I set up. And he was my role model. Oh you know, at the time, because there was nobody else. My parents were not into dentistry, I'm nobody into dentistry.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, so you need to have good you need to have a good support around you to be able to notice that little push, putting all the ideas into your head. Yeah, and also if you have the idea, somebody to flourish it, not bring you down. Yeah. Somebody to say, right, you want to do this? I'll help you. And this is what I I try to do with people.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00With dentists. You know, you have an idea, I can do it. I can help you.
SPEAKER_01I had um probably I think it's probably unfair to say I haven't had that many dental role models, because they'd been definitely I have definitely have more at this point than I did back then. But one guy is reminding me of you a lot, and I went back into general practice in Sheffield after Max Fax year and a bit. His name's Adrian Ripley, and he did uh Root Canal. Um I don't know if he was a specialist. Special special interest, yeah. Root canal on the NHS under a microscope, that kind of guy. Okay. And he at that time. Yeah, and he said, Um Do you want to use this year as like another VT year? So I was like, absolutely. Because he was saying, you know, you're thrown into the deep end you are really, and you've got these treatment plans, you've just been in hospital, you're back here. So we did, and we'd sit and How wonderful.
SPEAKER_00He's the one that got me reading papers and stuff, and yeah, they're they're good people, those people motivated you because you thought to yourself, well, if he's doing it and he's willing to help me, but then uh also Fran, you must have had it in you. You must have had that fire which it got ignited. Yes, yes, you know, because not everyone um is interested in further education. And it's right, and it doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_01Actually, a lot of people would have probably seen that as a negative because you want to get in and you want to earn money. Yeah, at that time, that's when everyone starts buying a car.
SPEAKER_00That's like your house and they're getting married and this and that. Yeah, things change.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh, but then if you've got it in you that you want to learn more and you've got someone who's willing to teach you, and then you you'll take that opportunity.
SPEAKER_01I'm just I remember his wife worked with us as well, and she she used to say something that always stuck with me just as a girl, as a lady, she's like manicure pedicure hair facial every month. Every month. Always take that. Looking after yourself as a woman.
SPEAKER_00Yes, ladies. Manicure pedicure after yourself. Look after yourself, look after your hair, look after your skin, your nails, you know, drink water, look after your nutrition, your diet. Yeah, these are important education on one side, health on the other side, family on the other side, you know, you need to have everything. They all help one another, don't you? Exactly, and all sort of intermingles. And then and that way you run a good life, a happy life. Yeah because if you just focus on one thing and lose the other, that's not good. No, you need to have a balance.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You need to have a balance, and people who don't have a balance are people who then start hating their work. Because they're overworking.
SPEAKER_01Oh, we're we're running over slightly. I'm gonna tie it up. I've loved talking to you. Um the final question I always ask everybody, and you've hit on certain things already, but if you were to go back to the first year of dental school or just graduated, what would you say to people at that point? Or what do you wish you'd been told?
SPEAKER_00In a way, I'm happy that I didn't have much idea about what I was going in for. Because I think when you know, if you know too much about like, you know, um, I'll give you an example, like our kids, they uh my kids, no dentist kids want to do dentistry. Because you know what, they've seen their parents, run a business, they get complaints, they get this, they're upset. You know, they think to themselves, why should I want to be doing that job? Yeah, there are easier ways to make money. Yeah, so in a way, I'm happy that I have no idea about dentistry. I don't have a parent in dentistry, but what what would have been nice would be to someone to tell me that hang in there and be strong rather than criticizing me. Be strong, you got this. You're here, and I tell everyone this. If you are here in dental school, means you are above average in your IQ, in your intelligence, because you got in. Okay. I'm not saying dentists are all intelligent, but you're capable, you're dedicated, you're disciplined, you got in. So you will stay, you will be there and you will stay in this profession. Uh so build your resilience and become strong. Um, you know, because this type of profession you need to be quite resilient in. But then just go with the flow. Just go with the flow. Whatever comes your way, just do that. And that's meant to be. I'm a big believer that we all get what we uh has been destined to us. But but if it comes to you, don't dismiss it. Be open. Be open. Be open. It's like the sliding door. You know, be open to getting what comes to you. Because if you have a closed mind, um, you will actually not see all the good things which are gonna come to you. So have an open mind, be with good people who are happy, who bring out the best in you, not you know, surround yourself with those kind. Be a positive person. Even though when things are going per shape, be positive. Doesn't matter, maybe it's happened for a reason. Yeah, that's how we learn. That's that's how life that's life. Yeah, that's life, and you know, my life has always been like that. Up, down, down, up from the moment I was in Iran to coming here, challenges, challenges, challenges. But the only thing which got me through is having a positive mind and saying whatever I'm getting is because it was meant to be for me. So fine, I accept it and I'll deal with it. And having positive friends around me, a good social circle, very important, you know, good social circle. And also um Matt has been amazing. He's been like, you know, without him, I couldn't have been doing what I've been doing. So choose the right partner. Yeah, choose the right partner. How though? That's um that's another podcast. That is another podcast. I can't tell you how to choose the right partner, but I can tell you one thing don't let your partner change you. That's all I can say. You know, stay authentic.
SPEAKER_01It's lovely seeing you together though. The events, he's always there, supportive, always in the background, always happy.
SPEAKER_00It's like Maggie Thatcher, and you know, I'm Maggie Thatcher. He's happy to be behind the scenes, you know. Be in the background, he doesn't want anything. He says, You go, you do what you want, and I'm there. And uh, you know, and he's never tried to change me. Never, and that is what I teach all the young females. I said, uh, you know, if you want to know who's a good partner, someone who's supportive and someone who doesn't want to change you, accepts you the way you are. Because the way you are now, you're just gonna get worse than this. So if you're very dedicated, you're just gonna become more dedicated. Yeah, so if you're happy with this and happy to accept them that they're gonna get worse, then then go for it. I think you should have a column in a newspaper. Yeah, I should. Thank you so much. I won't give you any. Oh, thank you, Fran. It was lovely to talk to you.