Kishan Patel

Meet Kish.
An accomplished orthodontist balancing work across NHS hospitals and private practice.
We discuss the sacrifices of specialist training, the qualities that make a great trainee, the
importance of life beyond dentistry, and why a future law degree might be on the horizon.
A thoughtful clinician with ambitions that extend well beyond the clinic.
@dr.kishan.ortho

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I'm Kish and Patel and this is Neutral Zone.

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Hi Kish.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Thanks for coming to Neutral Zone on a Friday evening.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Welcome to my surgery.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

It's such a lovely surgery though. What a nice road in Holland Park.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Yeah, we're hi hidden away. But um this is not the usual. There's not usually champagne served in my uh surgery. Just for you.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

You know, that's how the us orthodontists were.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

How much of your identity do you think is tied to being a dentist?

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Oh, good question. Um I think quite a significant portion of what I do from a day-to-day basis is surrounded by dentistry orthodontists. A lot of my colleagues and friends are dentists, and therefore your identity, even though you try and not for it that your identity shouldn't be solely related to dentistry, the fact that you're surrounded by dentists with the majority of your work like sort of waking hours means that your identity is governed by your profession to somewhat an unhealthy degree.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

So every angle of your life. Yeah, every angle.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

And like I come from a family of dentists. Do so I've got three uncles, all successful practice owners, perfect smile, owner of perfect smile, owner of Love Tiggs dental, owner of iconic smiles.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

I knew none of this.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Yeah. So like that's one of the reasons why I wanted to get into dentistry. You see, like the business of dentistry, so well, the successful life that is portrayed in It's attractive, no? It is attractive. Like home is uh surrounded by dentistry, at work is surrounded by dentistry. So yeah, I think a lot of my identity, even though I try and repel it as much as possible, is is to do with that, yeah. But I'm I'm not I mean I think it's a very privileged position to be in, you know, we've got a very privileged job. So it's not not something that I shirk away from.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

If you are not Kish the dentist, though, who else are you?

SPEAKER_00 2:17

I think when I'm not doing you know day-to-day nine to five job, it's about socializing with friends, spending time with family, I think in the Indian culture, a lot of our upbringing is taught to value parents, and I love my parents and my grandparents at home, and it teaches you a lot of insight into what's important in looking at the bigger picture and sacrifices that you have to make for the greater good. So a lot of what I do outside of dentistry is spent socializing. I'm not, I think, for anyone were to ask an almost self-honscious person.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

I just you fill your cup in other ways.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

I fill my cup in another way. But yeah, I think um outside of dentistry, it's predominantly to do with spending time with the people that make you a better person that you want to spend time with. A lot of you know, working with patients, working with colleagues is difficult. Your emotional batteries are drained. So when you do and I am, I don't think there's anyone who's going to call me an introvert, an extroverted person. So when you do get to spend time with people that you want to spend time with, that is That's what fills you. Oh yeah, that's nurturing, you know, that's that's refilling your batteries.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

How do you switch off after one of those days though, where you've never stopped talking, like you're having to chat to the patients all day?

SPEAKER_00 3:45

I feel horrendous. Like I get home, like I said, I live with my parents and my grandparents, and I'm like straight. Get me into the study where I can watch TV or get me into, you know, just and just close myself. What you feel guilty, you know, you're very short with your family. Yes, they ask you how your day's been, and you don't want to explain and relive that side that you know it's been pretty shit.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

It's not much different from when you used to come in from school and like, what did you learn today? What did you do? Who did you see? And you just like shut up.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

Like, go away. What I want is just some time to decompress. Yeah. Like I live in London and getting the train home from work, sometimes when there are train delays in London, there are train delays pretty much horrific. Like at least once a week. That hour just listening. I'm big listening to classical music every day, a big quick final classical music. Just like putting some um classical music in and just having that time to yourself where you're isolated and it just takes your time. Take yourself off, read a book, watch some Netflix on the train or whatever it is, and it just allows you that time to yourself when no one can contact you. It's trash TV for me, something like a lot of trash TV. Maybe what do you like? Under Bibling, Real Housewives of Beverly Hills.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

Oh, you're speaking to Real Housewives I discovered in in COVID. And um, I watched Beverly Hills from the beginning, and it was literally the only company I had for about three months. Just got up, pressed play.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

Lisa Vanderpump.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Oh, it's brilliant. It's a good balance. If you're being serious all day.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

I know, you need something. And like I was a money. I was a massive, massive reason. Like to get to you know, the stage that I'm in my career now, I've had to set exact sit exams for you know, well, I'm 33 now, so been sitting exams for the best part of 30 years.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

30 years, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:41

Well not 30 years, but you're not in 25 years or whatever it is. And when you're revising and doing all of that, the last thing that you want to do is read, pick up a book, and things like that. You just need something that is the antithesis.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

It's not require any brain brain work. So you're a fully qualified specialist orthodontist now?

SPEAKER_00 6:01

Yeah, it's um recently. No. No. So I qualified as a specialist two or a bit years ago, but now I've just qualified as I'm consultant trained now. So to become a specialist is three years of specialty training. You can do another further two years of training so you can apply for consultant jobs. So and it is mad to think that. I remember like from year four of dental school, all I've ever wanted to do was orthodontics. And I don't know what it is about orthodontists. Maybe it's quite teen, it's like a puzzle that you're trying to solve and you're working with different specialists. I don't know what it is, but from early on in my career, that is something that I wanted to do. And it's been a slog. I applied three times to get into orthodontics. You know, didn't get it the first two times.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

For the training pathway for three years.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

It's really quite competitive. It's not maybe as competitive as other dental specialties, but it is competitive enough for you to get rejected and to get turned down, and for you to take that personally and you not to want to continue on what you feel like you should be doing. And that third time, third time and charm, you know, and I got in. And yeah, three years of hard grafting and hard training.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

So why do you think you got in on the third time? Did anything changed?

SPEAKER_00 7:28

I published a really controversial article in a British Dental Journal.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Really?

SPEAKER_00 7:33

When I was in DCT2. It's called Young Dentists Breaking the Silence. And it was an article that I mean, I published in the BDJ a number of times, but I've never had an article that the editor has accepted within seven days of accept of um receiving the manuscript. And this, I mean, you can still find it online, I'm sure. And it's um an article which basically highlighted, which I think is actually pertinent currently of how difficult dentistry is for a young dentist. You know, you've got the GDC who I mean, what did I call them? The bloodhounds in that article. Um the GDC where you have to practice defensive dentistry. You've got other aspects that don't, you know, the UDA system. I think every dentist who works in primary care dentistry understands that the system that allows dentistry to take place under the NHS isn't necessarily fit for purpose. But this article was published and it got discussed at a very high level. And I thought that that brought me down and that I was sort of blacklisted maybe in terms of getting into specialty training.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

Oh, so you think that's what made you not get in the first two times?

SPEAKER_00 8:56

No, the first time the second time, the second time, that's the reason why I didn't think. So I applied as a DCT two on this article was published, and I didn't expect to get in as a DCT two. It's the first time that you can apply. As a DCT three, I went to Sheffield and did restorative dentistry, um and I scored lower in my DCT three interview than I did in my DCT two, considering I had published so much more, considering I had presented so much more. And that for me was a bit of a red flag. It's like, why didn't I get in? And then I worked in practice where I was a VT trainer, and I got in third time lucky, and you know big believer of everything that happens happens for the best. And if I accepted a job as a DCT too, I might not have ended up at King's and St. George's where I've done all of my training. And of course I'm a little bit biased, but I think it's probably one of the best training jobs in the country in terms of the support and the mentors that you have at both of those institutes. It's been absolutely phenomenal. So it had to wait an extra year or whatever it might be, but we got there only yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

Yeah, you're happy you're there eventually. I remember doing when I was doing my SHO year in MaxFax, I remember working in the Barnsley Hospital. Yeah. And there was an the Orthodontist Reg was commuting from Newcastle every day. And then I was like, my goodness, that's how competitive it was.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

I had to get it. And some of these hospitals are, you know, it could be Norwich and Central London, South End, and rural. Yeah, they're really, really quite far apart. So it does take a lot of commitment. So when you do have a specialist orthodontist on the other side, they've you have to have main desacrum, you make a salary sacrifice because you know, hospital salaries, hospital salaries, the junior doctor contract, which is good, but it's not what it's capped. It's yeah, it's not what it's not what your peers are at. Yeah, if well exactly private cosmetic dentists. We know I know lots of private cosmetic dentists and they're getting far, far more cash. Um, but that's a sacrifice, but also it's a sacrifice to your quality of life. You know, you're traveling your community, you might have a family, yeah, you've got children, and it all takes out with children. It's all looking at the bigger picture. You need to want to have it.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

You know, it's not wanting, you need to want to have it.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Do you think that makes orthodontists a certain type of person in the whole field?

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Not necessarily, no, because orthodontics is one of 13 specialties, and I can only speak for myself. But if you are a specialist, if you are a consultant, then you have had to make some level of sacrifice. And if you're positioned to be able to do that, then it makes it a lot more seamless process. Like I did orthodontics. I'll be very frank. When I did orthodontics, I was at ST1 to ST3 salary was just over 50 grand, right? For five days a week between Kings and St. George's. I was doing my MSc at King's College London, and that was 18,000 pounds a year for three years. So that's a massive sacrifice. I'm super fortunate that I live in London, I'll get supportive with a white family, don't have rent to pay, don't have no food costs and things like that. But someone who is coming into London because they've got this job and they wanted this job because, but like me from year four and BDS, and this is a job that they've got, and suddenly you've got £80,000 London rent, London living costs, London transport. It does add up, and that's a sacrifice that is necessary to succeed.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

Are you glad you've done it though?

SPEAKER_00 12:58

I love why I do. Do you? I actually genuinely love why I do. And not a lot of people can actually say that.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

But me going into work, whether that be in hospital or be in private practice or you genuinely it it brings a smile to my face. And part of what the biggest reason why I wanted to do consultant training to be a consultant is you're really involved, or you can be really involved in teaching. And I get a lot of self-satisfaction from helping people. Yeah, people who have been in my position. And you know, I've walked that walk, and if I had that opportunity or that opportunity, that would have made my life a little bit easier.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

So you would said to you, or you know.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

Yeah. Yeah. And like, why can't I offer that to some based on my experience of things like that? So that's I genuinely like the clinical cases are super complex. I think I'll be biased again, and I'll say orthodontics is probably the most intellectual dental specialty in terms of it's a puzzle, and you've got to solve that puzzle. How do you manage craniofacial growth? How do you manage these teeth? How do you position them correctly in the right face? How do you then marry your professional opinion with patient expectations and manage that compliance? I mean, aligners are brilliant, you know, and it's done a lot for orthodontics in terms of uptake. And educating the average person on moving teeth. But compliance is a major thing, you know. Twenty-two hours of um Oh, it's such a difference. I don't think I'd be able to talk.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Having done invisalign myself, I wish I'd done brackets.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

Yeah, agreed. And and it's I'm not I'm not I will never sell anything to anyone that's up to them for them to take it on themselves, but I'm biased. You know, I could my bread and butter is putting brackets on and it delivers a better result with more complex cases. But this is about the pinnacle, that's different.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

What would you say success looks like to you in the future now that you've got here?

SPEAKER_00 15:19

And I'm still looking for a consultant job.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

For those listening, Kishume, we say the word consultant. Correct me if I'm wrong. That's because you're working in a hospital as a specialist.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

No. No. No. So to be a consultant, you there are consultant jobs and it dental training in hospital runs parallel to medical training. So if you were a maxillofacial trainee, okay, granted you've done your dual qualified, but you have to do five years of specialty training to become, to be eligible to sit a fellowship level of exam. So in dentistry, we sit the ISFE, which is the intercollegiate fellowship specialty examination, and that is after five years of training. So a fellowship examination, and currently the whole examination process is going through a whole rej, but the process it was for me is that you sit a fellowship examination at a World College or surgeons, and you are eligible to apply for a consulting job. Not every specialist has done those additional two years for them to be eligible to sit that exam and to apply for a consultant job. So if you're, you know, in a specialty like periodontics, it's a three-year specialty pathway and there isn't an opportunity to do further training. That's the same with endodontics. That's the same with oral surgery currently. It's a three-year pathway. There isn't a three plus two, whereas restorative is a four or five years, and there isn't a three-year get out, you're a specialist. You only become a specialist in restorative dentistry after the five years. Whereas with orthodontics, it's a three plus two. Because the first three years for you to be a specialist orthodoncourtist is predominantly moving teeth, whereas the next two years are dealing with craniofacial cases, cleft lip and palate, orthognaphic cases, complex hypodonture, complex medical histories and oncology. Oncology, yeah, exactly. So it's taking it to the next level of complexity in terms of patient case management. So success to be moving from here. Like I said, that I'm not a consultant yet. I do want to be a consultant, hopefully somewhere in London. And then, you know, I've achieved after that, off after the clinical side or the work side, it's about settling down a family and progressing in that side, essentially.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

So I mean you don't have much time for that.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

Yeah, it's been pretty full on. I mean, anyone who knows me says I've got a pretty packed social life, and then um marrying that with a very hectic professional life doesn't leave But that's a personal choice, right? You make that choice. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

And I'm a big believer that there's certain chapters of your life where you've needed that side of the social side thing to get you through this other side.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

It's and I don't regret anything. Like I've got a really, really, really good group of friends around me. Really, really supportive family around me. And that is something that not many people can say out there, you know. And that's something that you can't take for granted. Yeah, people have to appease your own. Yeah, agreed.

SPEAKER_01 18:46

Are those friends all dentists?

SPEAKER_00 18:48

Um any non-dental friends? That's a very good question. Yeah, actually, I do have a few non-dental friends who know from you like those friends from university who you were like thrown in in freshers with, and like one of them it works in finance, another friend works also works in finances. Finance, I wouldn't say, yeah, they're working alternative industry. But the vast, vast, vast majority of my friends is dentistry. And that goes back to the question that you asked me earlier. How much of an identity is dentistry? And you know, like you're surrounded by it. And it feels really bad in a social situation when you've got a non-dentist there and three dentists, and then all you can talk about is, you know, the talk of your upper left two or whatever it might be. And you're like, this is actually not a chat to be at.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

It's so funny to me because say you had say you you were the other person in a group of finance finance guys, and they're talking about interest rates or something all night. That sounds so interesting.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

So interesting.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

But they never do it, they switch off.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

I know. They do, and then they don't after a while. Everyone, you put people in a similar industry together, yeah. The theme of commonality is your job.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

So inadvertently it does revert to Why do you think you guys are still so such good friends?

SPEAKER_01 20:19

That question.

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Or is it hard? Interesting. That's a good question.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Um How many years have you all been known each other now?

SPEAKER_00 20:25

So my oldest dental friend is um during Maxfax currently. We've known each other for four, don't know, 15 years. At Bristol, he did album at uh medicine at Cambridge, and then I was doing Maxfax. But I think it goes back to just basic things. If you're a good person and if your values are similar, like your core values of you know, not being jealous of someone else's success, not being, you know, why has that person got that opportunity and I don't have that opportunity, and things like that. If you actually genuinely like spending time with someone, which is quite difficult in the first instance, right? But then you're happy to see them succeed and be part of their journey, I think that's really, really important thing. And in our friendship group, uh in all my friendship groups, actually, because you've got different friendships group, it doesn't think yeah. They came together on a 30th birthday, it was a couple of years ago, and it's just like it gives you anxiety are they all gonna job. But um, but every person in all the different satellite groups, as you've very rightly said, they genuinely want to help each other out and genuine want to do what's good for everyone. And I I think that's the real thing. That's the biggest thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Do you have any other passions outside of dentistry? Mentioned classical music.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

Yeah, um I do Passion's a strong word. I think dentistry takes a lot of my time. I don't want to sound like quite a one trap, like one what's what's the thing? One horse pony. I don't know. Anyway, we'll edit that out. Passions outside of dentistry. I mean, everyone, if anyone says what does Kish love, it's watches. I'm a big watcher for Shivado, love watches, everything. Read, eat, sleep, everything watches outside of watching.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Like you and a technical party.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Yeah, the trades. The histories, the brands. I'm going to watch The Wonders this year to see all the new releases, get invited to events from that perspective. Like it is actually a whole watch community. And I've met friends, you know, said she had non-dental friends and other um friends from watch events that we just go out for dinner and just and all we talk about, it sounds really absurd. It sounds really perverse, but all we talk about is watches. And it's a whole different world, but it's a world that, you know, it's a bit of escapism. Like you said, well, how do you switch off? I'll read Hadinky. And if you're a watch aficionado, everyone will know Hadinky and things like that. Like it's one of those things that you've got to just switch off.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

Um sure, to me and watch then. Not that it would be anything to me.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

Oh, probably a Patek Philippe uh no split second chronograph in platinum. If I've got a spare 300 grand, then hook me up.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

Do you think you'd still do some dentistry if you won won the lottery?

SPEAKER_00 23:40

Won the lottery. That's a very, very, very good question. It depends on how much more winning.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Big big.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Well, what's big big?

SPEAKER_01 23:46

Tens of millions.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Alright, if I'm 50 million, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:51

That's the cutoff.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

No, it's not the cutoff. But we I just need a number. Oh my god. Right? Yeah, I would. I would still do dentistry. You know, I probably wouldn't pursue private practice as diligently. And I would spend my time mainly in the NHS working in hospital because that's the fulfillment of those cases and those patients and the impact that you can make for those people is way more.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

It's a very good point that we assume the goal is private dentistry to do the work you want to. And so many big complicated cases are where a lot of the heavy work is is in hospital or NHS.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

But I don't know if like um this is going to hurt. That book that got published by um had Andy McKay or something.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

The medic.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

The medic. And then there was that BBC program. A lot of like a lot of medics work in the private sector, Harley Street, uh Lister, uh Lister Hospital in Chelsea or the Wellington Kenny, Cromwell, all of these places. But one of the stories in that that really sort of stood out was when shit hits the fan, when defecation hits the oscillation, right? Um it's the NHS that picks it up because these private hospitals don't have the infrastructure and the acute respect everyone there to manage it. So you spend tens and tens, tens of thousands of pounds for you know birthing at the Lindau wing or whatever it is, but when defecation hits the oscillation, it's the NHS registrar, or whatever you get pulled in from that direction. Yeah. So for me, the goal is a private practice. For me, the goal is to provide the best care that I can offer anyone. And you're always learning, no matter how senior you are, not saying that I'm senior because I'm only 33, that you know, 60 plus year old consultants. The day that you say I know it all is the day that as a patient I don't want to come and see you. Yeah. Because that's a really dangerous place to be. Everyone is always learning, can never be more humble to learn from people. It doesn't matter who you're learning from, you've just got to have that mindset of wanting to acquire knowledge. It's collaboration 100%. 100%. And there are so many egos that we meet in all of our professions, right? And there's nothing more off-putting than having a closed mindset of my way is the highway. Sometimes, you know, as a dentist, you do have to put your foot down, like this is how I'm going to do it. But that has to be taken with consideration of looking at the bigger picture, and then you've got to make that considered decision.

SPEAKER_01 26:41

I always it always makes me cringe a little bit when you hear someone saying, I always do this. Don't know if I'm wording that right. You can always do the same thing, or there's a there's a degree of compromise, or there'll be a certain case where you can't do it gold still.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Agreed. And it it goes back to, you know, sometimes I'll ask the trainees, why are you going against a guideline? You know, we've got the World College guidelines of sixes on impact assumption size, things like this. Why are you because it's just a guideline. You know, your experience and your knowledge and your patient in front of you should provide you with enough information for you to be like, actually, it's a guideline and I'm going to go against that guideline for X, Y, and Z. As long as you know X, as long as you know X, Y, and Z, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

Oh, I like that. Like that or not. When you're teaching who makes the best trainee, what qualities do they have to have? Anything that really winds you up.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Um Massively.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

I think my face gave it away. It's the attitude to learning. I think that is the biggest thing. You know, when you're a DCT one coming into hospital, and now we've got um early years training, so EYT, early year tradees who are doing a combined DFT and DCT role. So it's a two-year longitudinal post that they spend some time in hospital and some time in um primary care practice. No one is expecting you to know everything, right? I teach undergrads at King's. No one is expecting you to know everything about an orthodontic assessment or anything like that. But what I am expecting you is to come in, maybe having read a chapter on the bus to work or on the train to work, and just have some sort of insight because what that shows is the right attitude that you're here to acquire knowledge. You're not here to piss around and have a joke with your friend because you haven't seen them and catch up on their holiday over Christmas. This is clinical time. This is a professional environment with patients around. This cost money. It costs the taxpayer money in a hospital. Um and the biggest thing, my biggest ick is not having the right attitude to learning. Everyone has off days, right? We've all been there at university where you've gone out online, we're just not performing 100% the day after, right? We've all done that. Well, exactly. We've all got that. But then, you know, there are compensations that can be made because uh everyone's allowed an off day. You're not allowed three or four off days in a row. I mean that becomes very, very apparent when your attitude just isn't there. Turning up to work late. There is no excuse in my mind or turning up too late to anything.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

I think it's my biggest foodiness. Yeah. In any any walk of life, even though it's agreed, agree.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

You said get here at 4 30, you turned up at 4 50 with a bottle of champagne, you know, like when it's studying.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

But there's a mutual respect there, isn't there?

SPEAKER_00 29:58

It is.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

With teachers, my time is no more turned up willing to to give knowledge and and be there to help. And I think teacher-student relationship, it's like they have to bring a certain amount to it as well. They can you're there to answer questions, to bring the questions.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

I've got focus on their silent. I've got my BDS, I've got all of all the whatever I've got. I've got it. I'm here to help you get my knowledge from me and make it yours, and then you've got the power to treat your patients.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

Yeah, the question you need answered. Yeah. That's what you exactly. When everyone's got different questions.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

Questions to ask them answer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

Is there anything else you'd still like to achieve?

SPEAKER_00 30:41

Yeah. 100%. Yeah. Um one of the things was get your consultancy job. Get my consultant job. I want to be a lawyer. So I do want to do an LLM. Let me get my consultant job for years under my belt as a consultant. My dad always said that I should have done law. I didn't believe myself enough when I went to school for me to get into Oxford. It's quite selling. A bit hoity-toisey, but I probably should have gone down that route of not of doing something where, you know, it's about speaking and there's different aspects. Not saying that dentistry is linear like linear, but that's why I'm I've chosen this path of dentistry where there's lots of different strands, teacher, clinical, NHS, this, that, there's lots of different strands. But the last strand that I want is to do an LLM.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

To you and come and sue us all.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

Yeah. Uh what sue you, I mean therefore, what's it called? What's that? Um Dentistry Lawyers.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

Oh, um. I know what you mean. It will come to me in the second.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

There's two adverts on um Classic FM. It's on Classic FM. It's uh the one Beal B and Jones. Is it B? There's I think so. What's the implant place on Harley Street?

SPEAKER_01 32:03

Oh. Balbi? Is it Balbi?

SPEAKER_00 32:05

Oh, I can't remember what it is.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

But there's two the patient and it's coming up.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

Cover Garbas I soon. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

I kind of just, oh.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

I listen to Classic FM Carbon Private Practice, and suddenly I'm not calm when that comes on.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

Classical music is funny to me. You sometimes you'll be doing like an extraction that gets really dramatic, and it's this kind of gentle sandwich.

SPEAKER_00 32:28

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

It's better than Rihanna, Rude Boy, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 32:34

Oh my god, yeah. Rude toy.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Oh dear. I think someone this someone somewhere probably already exists but should have better playlists for dental surgeries.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

But that's it. I think I came across someone in um practice many years ago who'd actually made a Spotify playlist for dental practices and it got quite a few subscriptions, to be fair.

SPEAKER_01 32:54

Yeah. I just I need enough that they're not the same ones. Even like Radio 2, there's certain songs that seem to come on all the time. What's something you've been learning about yourself lately?

SPEAKER_00 33:04

Yeah, I think it's not necessarily specific to me. And I think as old uh as you progress in your career and the older you get, you just become less tolerant of other things. So I'm finding out that I'm becoming more intolerant of things that I don't like.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

I had this conversation with one of my best friends the other day. I think that's age.

SPEAKER_00 33:28

I think that's age. So I don't think it's specific to me, but um yeah, I like what I like and I don't like what I don't like.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

Yeah, it's it's I think you once you've spent enough time on on earth and you know yourself to a degree of what you want to spend your precious time. Tell me if things that don't align with values, what makes you happy why are you entertaining this? Yeah, uh less people pleasing, more like Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:00

And and you have to you have to go through a phase of like not people pleasing, you should always be genuine to yourself, but if you're pleasing someone not meeting you as you, aren't you? Yeah, but they're also like you're learning like from a professional perspective, if the consultant or whoever says, I want this done like this, and someone who is preparing something has already done it, some one person might construe that as a slicking. The other person might construe that as actually I've learned from this senior colleague and I've got things to learn from it. Action, let me just be proactive and do it and do it to a really, really high level because I'm learning something from it. Using something out. Exactly. It might not necessarily be um fully apparent from the outset, but there is method to the madness.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

When you were little growing up, do you think I know your dad said it goes?

SPEAKER_00 35:01

The first thing that I wanted to do was become a dustbin man just because I could drive the big trucks. My grandparents had um a News Asian shop in Norwood, which is in southeast London, and like my school was round the corner from there. I was allowed because it was a a corner shop, there was like sweets everywhere, I was allowed one sweet every Friday, and it was always going to be those cherry drops.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

Ooh, I love cherry drops.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

I love cherry drops.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

Cherry whips.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

No, no, the cherry drops are the bassist cherry drops, the hard-boiled sweets. Um the cherry drops, and I was I always got that. It's because they would always pick up the bigs in these big trucks, and I wanted to be a truck driver. So what matter honestly, my six-year-old brain, becoming just a man.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

I like the early morning aspect to it. You're done by one.

SPEAKER_00 35:54

Yeah, but you have to wake up at a really ridiculous hour. You have to get to the depot. I mean, I've looked at it, you know, I've researched it.

SPEAKER_01 36:04

What were you like as a little boy?

SPEAKER_00 36:06

I was very ast. I mean, from a very, very, very young age, hard work, there was no substitute for it.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

Oh, I agree.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

People could take away watches, they can take away whatever materialistically, but they cannot take away what you've natural work and that I saw about 11 plus six hours, very traumatizing. Went to a school in South East London and I was so average. You know, straight C candidate. Look at the reports, I've still got the reports at home of me being in primary school, and straight C candidate wanted to apply to this school with uh Cory Duncall Whitgift, which was uh that point number four in the country, and the headmaster of my primary school being like, no, there's no point Kish applying for it. He's never going to get in. Got in vice captain of the school eight years later, and it was but it's that dedication, it's that hard work, it's that work ethic, it's that philosophy that you just have to take to and it it's born from a young age, you know, that those characteristics. I mean, I do um one of my mottos is work hard, play hard. And I think all of my colleagues will know that um I do like to go out, but they will also say that I relatively and have- I relate to that a lot though.

SPEAKER_01 37:37

I think we say it almost with this negative connotation. No connotation to it, but if you're working so hard at a certain level and people don't see that either, it's done behind the scenes.

SPEAKER_00 37:49

Yeah, time.

SPEAKER_01 37:51

You'll you're like in my head, like a spring. Yeah. You're getting bumped up and up and up and up. At some point you have to have a release or be silly, and it's this yin and yang. I don't think I don't think there's many people who are super, super successful and don't have some kind of socialising aspect.

SPEAKER_00 38:09

I mean, I had my I set my last and final set of exams in November last year while I sent my fellowship examinations. I worked Monday to Friday in practice. Uh in hospital, sorry, every Saturday in practice, and now started working every other Sunday. Gosh. Right? And then I was tying that up with doing revision in the evenings. You get home, the clinic finishes at five, you get home at half six, seven o'clock, you wolf something down. Yeah. And then you've got to start revising about Addison's disease and arteriovenous malformations and all of these other random things because you've got an exam to set. And over time, you know, it does take a toll on you. So I'm not saying that I like going out because I work really hard. I like going out because I spend I like spend time with the people.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

But it's very into doing all of that hard work and revision. You I think it's unhealthy if you didn't then have some kind of out outlet to see your friends. And it's and and especially if your friends appreciate what you're doing behind the scenes and they're not.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

They're very supportive. And that's the reason why your friends are such a long time.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

Yeah. Do you do anything non-clinical apart from teaching? You mentioned you had you'd done a few papers.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Uh so yeah, I was examining at Royal College this week, actually, for MFDS. I do uh examining for the diploma in orthodontic therapy, which is coming up in April. That's all sort of teaching and supervise a lot uh a few projects from uh trainees helping them to get a better portfolio for their specialty exams. But that's the strings that you can have to your bow, just not working in private practice in primary care. And there's nothing wrong with that. That's like that is really commendable, and I don't want to take that away from anyone. But for me, I just like a little bit of variety of things like that. But yeah, what I see happening in the future if I were to look at it was yeah, NHS consultant job, maybe going down a management role in a hospital setting. Dad as deputy CEO of a large um NHS trust in London. So that's a lot of inspiration in terms of how you can progress and do well on that side as well. So that's quite important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:35

So you said your grandparents had corner shop. Yeah, and then your dad is CEO of a trust.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

Yeah, I mean, it's one of those things. Um I mean, it's really good.

SPEAKER_01 40:46

Um It's a lot of hard work.

SPEAKER_00 40:47

Lots of hard work, but it's that work ethic.

SPEAKER_01 40:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

So my grandparents came here in '72 after EDR Min in Uganda with the Exodus, and they had um a corner shop, not a corner shop, a post office on Acre Lane in Brixton. You know uh if you know Brixton, it's by the Tescas, just opposite where the just right next to where what's that Blues Kitchen is? Exactly. The Blues Kitchen. So they had a post office there. And even to this day, my grandmother still tells me that um there would be like a lot of people who would live above the post office. So when the wind used to like be really weird, the carpets used to lift up, they had one heater in the whole place and everyone. And Dad came here when he was five, grew up in Brixton, got chased down alleyways by skim heads because the 70s and 80s were was that sort of environment. Did work hard, got um his accountancy qualifications after doing chemistry at uh UCL, and started at a junior accounts manager or junior accounts in an NHS trust, and then through hard work, dedication, all those values that he has tried to instill in me um from a really young age, all of those things through hard um he was CFO and now he's deputy CEO and CFO of a large NHS trust and was top 50 most influential BAME leaders in last year. Wow, I bet your grandparents are so Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 42:33

So that's just that I grew up in my dad ran a post office for I was there every Sester. I wanted to be a shopkeeper, not a dozen.

SPEAKER_00 42:46

Really? You had lofty sights.

SPEAKER_01 42:51

Has anyone ever given you particularly good advice or like any mentals?

SPEAKER_00 42:56

Yeah, dad. My parents, my grandparents, like 100% like the sacrifices that they've put in for me to get to where I am, and it's just examples, you know. Dad is there sayings or like uh just be being trying your hardest. I uh you at what's my secondary school, we got our marks in um we got uh effort mark from one to six and an attainment mark from one to six, right? One was like hot dog, six was like why b why are you here? And I always aimed for a four in effort and one in attainment.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

Right at school didn't understand that, did they?

SPEAKER_00 43:48

But that's that's who you wanted to be that you find everything really easy without putting too much effort in. So dad always used to say obviously don't get a one. Three get a four-one, right? But getting a one-one is absolutely fun. As long as the one is for attainment, I don't care how you get there.

SPEAKER_01 44:12

So that was that's really interesting because that goes against the we don't care what you get, just work your best.

SPEAKER_00 44:18

No, I've never tried your hardest as well. I've never, I never but I still don't understand that. Try your hardest, but if your hardest, and it's gonna sound quite harsh, but if your hardest isn't allowing you to reach the potential that you want for yourself, maybe that's not the right thing for you.

SPEAKER_01 44:34

Yeah, it's probably just redirection, isn't it? There's certain avenues that are not meant for you as a person. Yeah. You know, I may be useless as a mathematician.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

Know yourself.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

Know your skill set. I do believe everyone's got something they're incredible at.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

Agreed. You just have to find it. Yeah. You have to find it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

What about work-wise, like mentors or good advice?

SPEAKER_00 44:57

Yeah, really good question. I've had in my orthodontic training, there are three people who stand out and in no order. They're Lucy Davenport Jones, who is currently an orthodontist and the clinical director of all of surgery at St. George's Hospital. So whether you're a neurosurgeon, I think her name, but maybe that's from referring. Maybe, yeah. So she works at St. George's and at Kingston. Shruti Patel, who was my educational supervisor for the first three years of my orthodontic career. And Jamie Guilliam, who was is an all-around just with two pieces in a pod in terms of the way that we have an outlook on how we should conduct stuff on the NHS or taxpayers' funding. Do you know you have to be very efficient, very streamlined, there's no umming or ring, and you've got to be quite precise with taxpayers' money. So um they're the three people in my orthodontic career who I would look back on and say actually have made me who I am.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

Oh, that's lovely. I bet it's nice for them to hear as well. They only ever hear negative things. No, I totally it's good to to thank people and be positive where it's due.

SPEAKER_00 46:23

If you give negativity too much space, it consumes a lot more time and effort than it requires. You know, I would rather just appreciate the good things that you've put and the opportunities that you've had.

SPEAKER_01 46:35

Yeah. And then if you were to go back to day one, what advice would you give?

SPEAKER_00 46:41

Do law.

SPEAKER_01 46:41

Do law. No, meet a denigraduate or undergrad.

SPEAKER_00 46:47

Go to Australia. No. Don't do it. Don't do it. Um, what I would say is enjoy the journey, not the destination. You're always going to be met with hurdles that are unexpected, be that professional or personal, and it's a test, you've just got to get through it. And if it's meant for you and you want it enough, you will get through it, and you'll be even more successful for it.

SPEAKER_01 47:17

Oh. It's a good place to end.

SPEAKER_00 47:20

Well, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 47:20

One one last question. Yeah, go on beer or champagne.

SPEAKER_00 47:23

Champagne, bolly all the way. Bolly volley volley.