The Hum
The Hum is a podcast hosted by Saul Levin about who controls the future, featuring interviews with people fighting the march of AI and data centers into every aspect of our lives.
The show is created in partnership with Rowhome Productions.
The Hum
“I’m in this fight because I love technology”
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Kate Brennan of the AI Now Institute is a leading national expert on the rapid development of AI and data centers and a vocal advocate for regular people to have a say in emerging technology. She talks about her journey as a technology loving Google employee, the policy toolkit she wrote for local officials, and what you can do to fight data centers near you.
Message us on Instagram @thehumpod to get connected to organizers in your state or country.
Learn more about Kate and her team’s work at ainowinstitute.org and check out their toolkit, training series, and the Site Fight Guide of the Data Center Working Group.
Read Saul’s recent Op Ed on data center resistance with Astra Taylor in the Guardian. And listen to Chenjerai Kumanyika’s interview with Saul and Astra on Unruly Subjects.
Coverage of The Hum in El Diario, Spain’s biggest newspaper and a story about data center fights in Harper’s Magazine.
The Hum is produced in partnership with Rowhome Productions.
Rohome Productions. You're listening to The Hum, a new podcast where we're sharing stories from folks across the U.S. who are fighting the march of AI and data centers into every aspect of our lives. I'm Stall Levin, your host. Last week, I had a fascinating conversation with farmer and social worker Emily Waldron of the fertile Willamette Valley in Oregon. She shares her story of connecting with her neighbors to organize against data centers, threatening to pave over the lush soils that underpin their work and livelihoods. If you haven't listened yet, I highly suggest you make time for that conversation. This week, I'm joined by Kate Brennan, a former Google employee who now works at a think tank called AI Now. Kate talks about the data center resistance guidebook she co-authored that is being referenced all over the nation. We also discussed her love of technology that got her into this work and her efforts in the fight for regular people to control AI instead of billionaires. Kate, thanks so much for joining us and welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01Hi, Saul. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00Let's start with AI Now, where you work. Could you just tell us a little bit about what your goals are and what AI Now is trying to accomplish?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so we've been around since 2017. So we're a fully independent think tank, kind of started before this current Chat GPT AI hype cycle. I would say principally we conduct expert research and analysis to counter the current trajectory of the AI industry and figure out how we can pursue research in service of the public's goals rather than the goals of the industry and profit. I would say two main goals we have. First is a narrative intervention. How can we counter the narratives that are coming out of the AI industry? And then the second is a bit more practical. How can we equip folks who are engaging in fights on the ground with research that supports their fights? And how can we make sure that the fights that are happening on the ground are informing our fights? And the data center work is kind of a perfect confluence of those goals and where this work emerged from.
SPEAKER_00Super interesting. So you drafted a toolkit right at that intersection that be along with a few others that basically said if you're fighting a data center in your community, whether that be Georgia, New Jersey, you know, North Dakota, here are some things for you to consider and some frameworks for you to reference. I mean, what is that all about? Why are you even doing that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So what's amazing is that I didn't just principally author the toolkit, have to give a shout-out to my co-authors and the fact that this toolkit was done in consultation with over 30 different orgs that were engaging in site fights on the ground. And this is really important because the work emerged from the fights that were happening on the ground. And it was really clear like what we didn't want. It was really clear that we didn't want a data center coming into the community. But it was really clear that there was a need for the policies that we could ask for afterwards. And the problem is that a lot of our current laws are just not equipped to deal with this rapid build-out. And a lot of the laws that do exist stop short of any sort of transformative policy change. So we said we needed to build a toolkit that doesn't sacrifice a North Star vision for how we can think transformatively about stopping rampant data center development, but we could also make it really practical, really in the weeds, a full toolkit of what to do across local, state, and federal to put policies in place of what to do to regulate this build.
SPEAKER_00Was this in response to community request? Or what was the moment you guys said, you know what, we're going to build out sort of a framework of what to do?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, totally. I mean, there's a lot of talk right now about data center moratoriums, which are potent and critical, but they are temporary pauses. The idea of a moratorium is to put a pause in place so that governments can figure out the best way to protect their people. So we hear a lot about moratoriums, and that's really important, but then we heard a lot about what comes after. What do you do to regulate the resources that we know data centers are depleting? How do you structure tax incentives in a way that don't pull money from communities? So it really did emerge from this need of what comes next.
SPEAKER_00I I love this. I mean, the question on so many people's lips is what do we do about data centers? And I get a lot of calls, you know, we get a lot of outreach from local elected officials, city counselors, county commissioners, state legislators who say, hey, you know, I've heard from Democrats, Republicans, cousins of mine, you know, who are worried about a data center in their community, but I don't really know what to do. You know, do I, you know, ask for a pause? Do I make sure that it's not using too much water? So what's one or two things you'd want some of those folks to know about where to begin?
SPEAKER_01I think there's the the tangible and practical. I mean, our guide walks through a number of different things that can be done. And I think that's the first framing. Like, you can't take a siloed approach to this issue. We're already seeing how powerful interests are kind of capitalizing on some of the individual tactics that we recommend in the toolkit. We're seeing even the Trump administration talking about affordability and data centers paying for their infrastructure. We're seeing voluntary commitments come from tech companies saying that, you know, they're not going to ask for tax subsidies. But I think principally what we're advocating for is a holistic approach. It becomes whack-a-mole if you start looking at any individual issue, even though each individual issue is so important. So part of it is thinking comprehensively about the entire build-out, recognizing that sometimes when you think you are solving one problem, you might be implicating another because they're so interconnected. And that's really the case when it comes to the nexus between energy and water, for example. Very practically speaking, there is a lot that local officials can do from a zoning perspective. And I think that there's a core framework here that I think also helps with the existential question about why we might want to build a data center in our community. And that's if a local government has really clear goals for what they want to achieve in their community, then you can gauge the proposed data center development against that goal. And that becomes existential because if you have a locality where the goal, let's say, is decarbonization by a certain timeline, and we know that a data center is coming in and is going to impede that goal, then you have the grounds to reject the data center because it doesn't fit within your community's goal. And that's the most powerful thing that we can do.
SPEAKER_00Some folks say, well, it's just a building that houses data. We're going to need those anyways. They've been around throughout the internet. How would you explain to people why data centers are so instrumental in the broader fight for control of technology, artificial intelligence, and data?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. For a lot of people, data centers are kind of the manifestation of big tech coming into their communities and kind of barreling through democratic process. I think what's so powerful about this movement is that people are really waking up to the fact that corporate interests control almost our every single process that is part of the data center development pipeline. And so part of this fight is sometimes like dismissed as a certain level of like NIMBYism. But I think that that's a really misguided way to interpret it because what I think it is is a powerful resistance to who gets to control the technology. And at a baseline level, right, data centers are really bad for communities. They pull massive amounts of money away from tax uh tax base because governments are handing out massive tax subsidies. They pollute the air. They are actively making people's energy bills higher. And so people aren't resisting data centers necessarily because they are trying to make some statement about hating technology. They're resisting data centers because they love their communities, and data centers are a bad deal for communities.
SPEAKER_00So people are fighting back, it's the physical manifestation. In other words, this is where like big tech control crashes into someone's neighborhood and it can no longer be ignored, and people are suddenly more aware of it. So, with that in mind, let's go back to this document that you guys developed. What in this sort of toolkit of how to fight data centers, can you get into specifics? Like, what are some of the core takeaways? What are you actually offering to people who are getting into this fight and seeing the control of big tech crash into their small town in Texas?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So I sometimes like to call the document a menu of options, but then if every menu item you could also click into and see all of the ingredients that were listed. So we're thinking comprehensively about how to structure zoning law, resource allocation, the energy markets, and the AI industry more broadly to tackle the concentrated power that is kind of driving this massive build-out. I think one really important takeaway that comes out as well from this toolkit is that we talk a lot about AI regulation writ large going hand in hand with data center development. And that's what's bringing a lot of people into this fight as well, because they want, you know, they don't want a data center that is being built in their community to work in service of technology that might actively harm their interests in workplaces, in their home, in their family life. So we also have uh our pieces of our AI regulatory agenda as part of it because those two things cannot be inseparable. We look holistically at a local, state, and federal level, and there are different interventions that might be well suited to those different levels of jurisdiction. You know, a lot of these issues are done at a local level, but then that can pose a collective action problem because if a local government, you know, institutes strong accountability metrics, then a developer is going to take advantage of that and just move to potentially a neighboring jurisdiction where there are less regulations, but those groups of people are breathing the same air. Um, and we're literally seeing this happen in uh Memphis in Tennessee, thanks to the fights of Memphis Community Against Pollution and some incredible organizers there who are organizing against air pollution in historically backed communities. XAI has just moved their data center literally across the state line into Mississippi, even though everyone there breathes the same air. So we think a lot about how state and federal action can help solve some of those collective action problems from the limits of local control.
SPEAKER_00And what do people ask? I mean, you say, hey, you know, data centers coming in, some Silicon Valley billionaires trying to buy up land, you know, farmland or urban land in your area. Here's some things that you could do about it. What are the common questions that people ask?
SPEAKER_01A lot of people will ask, what do we do about the data centers that are already there? Right? Like part of what we're doing is there's a rapid build-out that's accelerating right now, but also this isn't a totally new problem. There has been hyperscale data center development increasing over the past few years. You know, I think that people are are really attuned to the interconnectedness of this issue. So people are asking, what do I do about water extraction in a way that doesn't then lead to more energy use? How do I think about instituting a pause so that I can then, you know, protect my community writ large? And then a lot of people are asking, like, you know, what can my state government do? What can Congress do in order to help add to this fight? So that's why it's important that while like always deferring to state and local control, which is a really important part of this process, there's also, you know, some of the higher order regulations that we can impose to help govern the market.
SPEAKER_00And going back to your first question, I mean, what do you say when people are like, we already have two data centers here? What do we do about those?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's a really hard question. There are some limits of zoning law, right? Like there are some limitations, which is why it becomes all the more important to be thinking proactively about what to do for accelerated growth. Like a lot of what we are advocating for is for local governments to change their like buy-right approval processes because right now the way it's been set up is that data centers are kind of grandfathered in as almost de facto approved in a lot of industrial zones across the country, which is giving organizations an ability to just slip right in. And so part of it is proactively, you know, there are some limits about what you can do for a data center that already has approval in the town. That's just real. Um, but there are a lot of positive mechanisms that you can do to change it so that future development doesn't just automatically get in. You can set it up so that a data center is presumed rejected unless it abides by the accountability metrics that are put in through a permitting process. And then that's the way that a local government can assert the most amount of control over what and which resources a data center is able to use.
SPEAKER_00Cool. So not to out you, but the rumor mill, also known as LinkedIn, says that you used to work at Google. And so I wanted to hear a little bit about, you know, as a former employee of one of these companies that's shoveling AI into everything that we interact with, what would you say to other big tech employees? And also like, how does that inform your work on this issue?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I love this question. It's so informative to my work. So yeah, I was at Google from 2016 to 2020. And I think I, like many people who have entered these companies, went in because we love technology. There's kind of this meme that's emerging on the left that's like the left hates technology, or even in these data center fights, like people are doing this because they hate technology. And it's like fundamentally the opposite. I'm in this fight because I love technology and I want to change the future of how it's rolled out. And I think that resonates with a lot of people who have worked and do work at Google and other tech companies. I met the most incredible people there, and I know that all of us don't want to work for companies that are making decisions that we fundamentally disagree with. I was really not surprised to see that, for example, like Google employees organized, I think, the largest private resistance to the use of Google tech services for ICE. And that's entirely unsurprising to me because people want to work on tech that they care about and not be part of narratives that they disagree with. So you also kind of have to love the thing that you're working so hard to critique and reform. And that's what brought me into this work and brings so many people into this work. And that's why I think so much also about how much people really love their communities, and it's why they're fighting so much for control over their communities, because you can't love a data center, it's a massive warehouse. There's no people who come in and out of it. There's no, there's truly very little that is getting added to a community. There are about 12 full-time permanent jobs for a data center on average. And so I think that my time at Google really sharpened that I want to see this industry move in a direction that I feel excited about. And the direction that I'm seeing because of AI emerge from these tech companies is not one that I find enviable.
SPEAKER_00Is it naive to work at Google a little bit and say, hey, I want to do something good for tech with the context of these corporations? So not coming for you, but saying as a broader question, I mean, in the past week it's surfaced that Pokemon Go was used to create digital maps of the entire world for AI training. And so even people who work at Google and Amazon and these other, you know, NVIDIA, whatever, are actually, if they're training a video game like Pokemon Go and saying, oh, my nephew loves this game, so I'm doing a good thing. In fact, there's a deeper motive from the sort of billionaires running these companies that makes it impossible to do productive work in tech without servicing that kind of work. So, how would you answer that question?
SPEAKER_01It's a good question. You know, I think that there are parallels to even how we talk about the technology. It's hard to talk about whether any individual is good or bad. There are a lot of, not that I I know that's not what you're saying, but like whether or not, you know, it's good or bad to work in a tech company right now, given the state of things. And I think that there are real strong critiques about the direction that companies are going in and really real reasons why people work in the industries that they work in. Right now, I think the movement for worker power that's happening at tech companies is extraordinary and it's growing, and there is significant power there. It gives me a lot of hope. And so part of me wants to catalyze and and move in that direction that if you are working within one of these companies, then you hold deep responsibility to hold that company that you work for accountable. And that is a legacy of you know, work from when I was at Google and what really kept me there and sustained me there. And I think it's happening there, and it's happening in ways that are both public and private, and that is such an incredible counterbalance to what's happening at the top, which I think a lot of people probably fundamentally disagree with. You know, we often offer that reframe as well because right now we're getting hit kind of consistently with people who are saying, like, yeah, I use ChatGPT sometimes. Like sometimes it's really helpful. Like, I'm a mom, and sometimes I need to like, I'm strapped for time and resources, and this helps me in this way. And it's like, great, the conversation here is not about whether, you know, you using ChatGPT is good or not. It's about whether or not it's good for our society that companies like OpenAI, like Microsoft, like Google have unaccountable power in society. And data centers is one of those vehicles that so many people are seeing the unaccountable power made material and present in their community.
SPEAKER_00I love that. There's kind of a conversation happening these days where people like to say, oh, you know, you don't realize Silicon Valley has shifted right. As the tech billionaires have sort of dived into the authoritarian project alongside Palantir and others and said, hey, if you all commit massive human rights violations against immigrants and and do X, Y, and Z other things, as long as we get tax breaks for data centers and sort of no regulation on AI, you know, we don't really mind. Do you think that folks who work in tech in Silicon Valley and around the country are on board with this mission?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I don't think so. I can't speak, you know, obviously, for people who are working within there. I and I think that it's hard for me to ever kind of like blame workers. Like I kind of want to always shift it into thinking about how workers can use their power to kind of fight back against the things that they disagree with. But I think you are exactly right. What we're seeing right now is like a massive alignment with this administration because it's necessary for business. Like part of this massive push that we're seeing for data centers, firms are spending like eye-watering amounts of capital to control this infrastructure. And so what's happening is that they need to figure out a way to make this profitable. And right now, it is not clear how AI is profitable to these companies. So they're not only throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks, they are actively turning to the government for support. And so, for them, for like Silicon Valley firms, alignment with this government who has also decided that boosting AI is a matter of national priority is an existential question for them because there's no other way to make this sustainable right now. And so I I would imagine that most people want to solve pro like want to work on technology that is solving problems, that is genuinely making people's lives better. They do not want to build technology to fuel a war and an ads machine, and that is what's happening right now. Part of what this fight is, is figuring out ways to get power back in the hands of the people who are building this technology so that it can be developed in ways that align with the broader public goals and not just the shareholders at Silicon Valley firms.
SPEAKER_00It's so fundamental what you're saying. I mean the control of data centers is what this fight is about. Because open AI, for instance, says this is so important, we have to build data centers to meet the future. But if you think about it, if they stopped building data centers, all these other companies would still build data centers. And so open AI is a commitment. To building data centers, it's actually about we want to have control and we want to make the money that could come from this, as opposed to actually being about we want to move technology forward. And so it sort of reveals the nature of this problem being about control, not about what technology do we want.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00And with that in mind, you all at AI Now recently released a really timely outline and report about the role that the federal government should play in regulating AI and keeping people safe. What are the spark notes about this new report and what should the federal government be doing?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You're spot on that this is about control of the infrastructure because these companies know that controlling the infrastructure is the best way to profit off of this new technology. The spark notes are that the federal government can play two really important roles in this fight. First is solving parts of the collective action problem that I alluded to, where it becomes a little bit of jurisdictional whack-a-mole about local and state governments instituting laws, which can then create a race to the bottom where development ends up happening in the states or the local governments with the least regulation. So to go back to the example that I was talking about with air pollution, you know, if the federal government can create federal air pollution standards, then we no longer have the option of developers crossing state lines to be able to benefit from weaker laws. The second thing that the federal government can do is regulate the market. So much of this is happening because of the concentrated corporate control of big tech companies able to spend trillions of dollars on this data center build-out. And we're seeing that they're increasingly turning to shady financial vehicles in order to make this happen. And it's the role of the federal government to hold these markets accountable so that our entire economy isn't resting on a singular industry and benefiting a few very powerful companies.
SPEAKER_00Got it. So if you were, you know, a member of Congress right now, I mean, what is the legislation that you're putting forward or what are you doing to move in that direction?
SPEAKER_01So I think it's maybe three parts. The first is like finding the clear lanes where the federal government and Congress has jurisdiction to oversee data center development. That's things like transparency, uh, energy markets, the land, federal land governing, and making sure that Congress acts there. Congress can also, you know, impose a federal moratorium to give states and local governments an opportunity to put these laws in place, and that's really powerful because of the collective action issue. The second is tackling concentrated corporate power across the entire AI stack. And I also include energy markets in that. One of the incredible things is that people are are realizing what many advocates have known for a very long time. Private equity is moving in and controlling, you know, our entire utility system, they're owning power generation, they're taking over investor-owned utilities, and that is not leading to, you know, a better energy future for people. And so Congress can act to find those choke points and really uh derig the monopoly power that is kind of dominating our markets. And then third, I think, is thinking proactively of what is an affirmative economic agenda that is not relying on a single concentrated issue, a single concentrated industry. I think like right now, I think 80% of our stock market gains or something are coming from AI affiliated industries, and that's not a healthy way to build an economy. And so I think part of what Congress can and has to do is think beyond this, take the AI blinders off and think about the industries and the economic agenda that is going to lead us into a sustainable future.
SPEAKER_00Some people aren't thinking about this at all right now, right? They're like data centers, why should I care about this? So, what would you say to someone who you know said, hey, I saw you were doing something on data centers? Is this relevant to me?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's a great question. So, first I would say that they should be paying attention because this massive the effects of the massive development of data centers is not limited to the location where the data center is located. So things like energy markets operate in a way such that if a data center happens, that is built in your overall grid, like your energy bill could be affected because of that decision. So it is kind of everyone's problem right now because of what is happening. And the second, I would always push for seeing the fight for data center development as intertwined with the broader question of AI control that's happening in society because of what I alluded to earlier, which is data centers are being built largely in service of a technology that is impacting many parts of our lives already. And so seeing data centers as kind of like the frontline physical manifestation of this push to bring technology into our lives in ways that we might not want to see it is one way in, but it's not the only way in. Thinking about the effects of AI more broadly on society is a way to be part of the data center fight because they're one and the same.
SPEAKER_00Makes a ton of sense. I'll bring that up with my aunt next week. Okay, so what is giving you hope and optimism and reason for vigor in the fight for control of AI and data centers right now? What's keeping you going?
SPEAKER_01The way that communities are coming out so passionately against this build out is truly what is sustaining me through this fight. I love that people are saying what type of future they want for their community. You know, we want a future that is affordable and we see how data centers are not contributing to that. We want a future where we have clean air and access to water. We want a future where our schools are well funded. These are the things that make a community thrive, and these are the things that data centers are actively standing in the way. And I have been so moved by the bipartisan nature of this fight, the intergenerational nature of this fight, the way that so many people are braiding together these different threads that many of us from different spheres have been thinking about for so long and showing up to their local city councils or state houses and saying we want a different direction for our lives. And I think that it's legislators that are pretty behind in this fight. Like the people are there, and we need to move to meet with them because the resistance is live, and that makes me hopeful.
SPEAKER_00I love it. Kate Brennan is the associate director at AI Now, who recently has designed toolkits with tips on how to organize against data centers and make sure that community control is maintained everywhere that they try to build them.
SPEAKER_01Thanks, all.
SPEAKER_00You've been listening to The Hum. We are publishing new episodes weekly, so if you like what you heard, please download and subscribe to the show and tell someone over lunch this week all about it. Message us on Instagram at The HumPod to get connected to organizers in your state or country. The Hum is produced in partnership with Rohome Productions. Rohome's creative director is Alex Lewis. Their executive producer is John Myers. Our producer is Emily Rizzo. The Hum's video producer is Adotre Hun, and we partner with the Center for Nonviolent Conflict Research. I'm Stall Levin, your host and banjo journeyman. Thanks for listening and see you next Tuesday.
SPEAKER_01Rohome Productions.
