You Can Survive 100% No And Still Win

Sitting down with Toby Gad — the songwriter and producer behind global hits like If I Were a Boy by Beyoncé and All of Me by John Legend — it’s easy to look at the career and think the success was inevitable.

But before the hits, Toby was an immigrant arriving in New York with no connections, putting up street posters to find collaborators, surviving rejection, and trying to hold onto belief when nothing seemed to move.

In the first episode of Sister Base, host Lvma Black sits down with Toby for a raw conversation about what rejection in the music industry actually feels like — brutal label meetings, getting feedback that crushes your confidence, hearing “no” over and over again, and still walking into the next studio session anyway.

They talk about the psychological side of building a creative life: persistence, self-doubt, resilience — and how sometimes a little bit of delusion is what keeps artists alive long enough to break through.

The conversation also explores a major shift happening in music right now — women beginning to step into spaces they were historically excluded from, not only as artists, but as producers, writers, decision-makers, and creative leaders shaping the future of the industry.

They also dive into AI music, AI vocals, the pressure of virality, and what happens to artists in a world where visibility is becoming just as important as talent.

Because sometimes you really can survive 100% “no” — and still win.

A space for women navigating music, creativity, and everything that comes with it.

Transcript

Women In Music Is Shifting

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Is it a positive thing? Are people really willing to help women kind of be embraced in the music?

SPEAKER_00 0:08

I think in the last ten years we've seen this shift and I think it's very much accepted now. I don't think maybe the old guards are already leaving.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

You gotta stand up before you stand up.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

This

Moving To New York With Nothing

SPEAKER_01 0:28

is a true honor, Toby, to have you. You are incredible. What I find fascinating is that you were an entrepreneur years ago when there were no books on entrepreneurship, when you know, right now everybody's an entrepreneur kind of. But when you moved to New York, and when you were putting these posters looking for young artists and young singers, and your hands were shaking from the cold, and you were putting all these posters to invite some singers to your studio. This is an entrepreneurship, like full-blown.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

I had small little um uh copy from the copy shop. I copied those little things. Uh I'm a producer from Europe. I'm looking for a singer. Can you sing? Do you want to work with me? And um a certain age bracket. And I actually found a 16-year-old girl. She um Shanta, she called the mother called me and we met, and she said, I would love to work with you. And so we recorded an album. That was my first artist I found in New York after I moved to New York from Germany with a lot of hopes and little money. And uh we recorded an album and I found a lawyer who opened the doors to the major labels for me, and I full of hopes, played them the album and thought, wow, we're gonna get a record deal and got a hundred percent rejection. But then at least I had a foot in the door, and I knew if I have a good song, I could come back to them.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Guys, if you want to start in this business, we have a recipe. You put leaflets on post, you put posters all over New York City to come to your studio, and then you know, done you have an artist. It's it takes some balls to do that, right? You're coming from you're coming from Germany, it's not even an English-speaking country. You don't know a soul.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

Did you know a soul in New York when you did have a publisher in Germany, and they were hoping I would come back crying after six months and they were hoping? Yes, they said tell me it's the dumbest idea ever. No German other than Harold Faltermeyer has made it in America. Forget it, don't try it. And um it was terrible. I had no support from them. But after a few months, I was working very, very hard. After a few months, they were starting to give me a chance.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

Do you think you you said something in your book that it might be a bit delusional to just have this immense trust in yourself? Do you think what is it? What is it that because I know it was three really hard years in New York of no money back, you know, you just working hard and no return. Now everybody knows how great you're doing, but I'm super interested in these three years. What was it that kept you going? What was it delusion? Was it just immense belief in yourself? How come, you know, you were you were you were eating bagels, like one bagel a day? Can you can you tell me a little more about that time and like how you were, you know, getting by?

SPEAKER_00 3:33

Looking back at it now, it it was a little insane. And I just bet everything I had on that eventually I would somehow land a song that a record company would like. Back in the day, you couldn't release a record without a record company. It would go onto a CD, and the CD would go into a record store, and people would go after they hear about a new artist, they would go into the record store, try to find the CD, hopefully it's there, and then they wouldn't be able to listen to it. They'd look at a cover picture and that they either like or don't, and then they blindly buy a $20 CD, you can't return it, open it, it's yours, and you don't know what's on it. That those were the days you needed a record company to release music, and nowadays anybody can release music, it's so different now.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

So when you were knocking on the doors of these record labels, were you just kind of showing up and saying, Hi, I'm Toby, and here are my songs, like how did it look like? How did it physically look like? Because now we have emails, there was not such a thing back then. How was the whole process of you trying to meet the people?

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Well, we had a cell phone, the some of the first cell phones. Blackberry? Yeah, I had a Blackberry before that, a trio.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

And uh I found this attorney who would walk me right into the head offices of the labors thinking that he could land a deal for us, but one after another it was all rejections. And uh, but I felt so privileged that I even got into the door. And I must say, in New York, a lot of people can get a first chance. You won't might not get a second one, but you can get into doors. People are open to see new people, whoever is very driven actually has a chance to get heard. Everyone's walking here. You see, with which car do they come? Oh my god, maybe not like not this guy. Yeah, in New York, everyone, even billionaires are walking in New York, so it's kind of a leveling factor. That was good to start.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

So, how many rejection letters or rejection situations do you think you have received before you heard before you heard the first yes?

SPEAKER_00 5:38

Well, that was a hundred percent rejection with that first album. And then um a few months later.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

Was this the same girl that you that you that found the poster?

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Yes, yes. A few months later, though, one of the ARs that I had met called me and said, Toby, can you do a session in the next 10 minutes? Because one producer stood up his artist and he didn't want to lose face. And so I said, Of course, come over. I was on 46th Street between 5th and 6th. So Atlantic Records, you could walk in five minutes. So she walked over to my studio. That was Willa Ford at the time. And um, I remember we wrote a song in an hour or two, and then the AR came to the studio, listened to the song, and burst out in tears and said, This is horrible. This is exactly not what I wanted.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

I thought you were going to say, burst in tears. I was ready to cry too, that it was so beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Yes, no.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

It was oh my god, it was the opposite.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

It was terrible. But um a week or two later, her manager called me up and said he he likes it, and uh Willa really enjoyed working with me. And so I got another chance to work with

A Brutal Session Turns Into Momentum

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Willa, and we did a whole album together, and then that manager, David Sonnenberg, became my manager, and for 12 years um he was my manager and he helped me put my name on the map.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

That's that's really helpful, I think, for you know, young songwriters that just because I think one is to get a rejection letter, but another thing is to tell somebody to your face that if somebody tells to your face that it's terrible and to be able to take it and to pick up and write another story.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

He was in tears and then asked, What's wrong? He wasn't gonna tell me. Nobody likes to tell you no in America. In Germany, Germans love to say no and explain why it's a no. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

So I have a question because I know that with you know, and I and I really want to talk about the the rejections because of where you are today. And uh everybody looks at you and they think it's so easy, right? Look at you, look at the studio, look at the you know, stars that you're working with. You're a star. And everybody thinks, well, you know, he's talented, he had it easy. And and I find it so interesting to look at these beginning times. I know that there was a situation where you actually flew to London to hear the rejection said to your face. Is that the case? That they wrote something, but you're like, no, no, no, I'm going there. I need to understand why, like kind of the German way. Yeah. Tell me why. What was that? Can you tell me about it?

SPEAKER_00 8:22

I thought I'm a singer and I spent a lot of time and money to make my first record. Recorded 10 songs and sent them to all the big managers, Elton John's manager and all the big managements in London. That was what my dream looked like. And uh half the tapes, they were cassette tapes, half of them came back in the mail with a nice rejection letter. And sometimes they complimented the songs, but they said my voice, no. And um then I thought only half of them are rejections, somebody must like it. So I went to London,

How Toby Survived the “No” Years

SPEAKER_00 8:55

I knocked on the doors of each of those. I think it was 10 or 12 that didn't say anything. Did you just show up?

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Did you like not have a meeting? You were just like, I'm just gonna go and walk.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

I just showed up. And I found somebody and said, has anyone in this office listened to my tape? And then I got the other rejections, so it was a hundred percent rejection. So I kind of felt maybe I'm not a singer. But they liked the songs, so uh I thought maybe I'm a songwriter.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Was it hard for you to say goodbye to singing?

SPEAKER_00 9:29

Um at the time, of course, but in retrospect, now having worked with so many real singers who could sing anything and make you cry because the voice is so stunning. Um I I see 100% why.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

So so that's very interesting because you know, we talk nowadays about grit and we talk about having perseverance and all that. But you kind of have to know where's the line. Like, what are the things that you let go and what are the things that you persevere? If you had to give advice to somebody who is 18 and you know, might hear different feedback from different people, and they're like, Well, should I keep doing it because I should persevere? But at what at what point do you let go of some of the things? Just like for you, you kept going with songwriting, but

Audience First In The Social Era

SPEAKER_01 10:25

you let go of the singing.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

It's a lot easier these days because you actually with social media have a chance to have a direct connection with an audience. You can build an audience and it's your audience to talk to. Back in the day, there was a record label between you and the audience in the early days before. Um I mean, nowadays you just release something on DistroKit and see if people listen to it on Spotify or Apple or Amazon, and if they do, then your numbers go up and you promote it, you do shows, you see if people enjoy listening to you, if they even show up to your show, if they want to come to a second show. Um it's so much easier these days to get direct feedback, and you could do anything. I I mean there's so many different genres of music. There's also all this lo-fi genre where it's the opposite of hi-fi and high quality. And back in the day, it used to be more like bathroom singers where on a stage they weren't like Celine Dion or Whitney Houston, or um they weren't like great expressive singers that could have a big voice, which was back then much more uh in demand. Nowadays, Billie Eilish was mostly known for a very soft voice, and for what back in the day people would say bathroom singer. Now this is big. Everyone likes to listen to these soft voices, and I'm embracing that too now. So I wouldn't dare to say this is good or bad, but if you can find your own audience, then you win.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

So you might sing again, you're not saying no to that.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Right?

SPEAKER_01 12:02

No, seriously, because because you're right, it's it's like the rater sometimes is by who moves you. Yeah, it's not a good thing. And it's not always, and sometimes people with amazing, incredible, big voices, they're incredible, but then somebody with a voice that's not so big but has this thing like Billy Eilish, you mentioned, just moves you. Yeah. And you go for this artist, you just want to listen to that artist.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

Yeah, you look at talent shows like X Factor or American Idol or so, someone like Billie Eilish would have a hard time at these shows, but they have the a much bigger audience than anyone who's won American Idol. So it's all about finding your audience, finding what's unique about you and sticking with that or emphasizing that and showing that to the world.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

And uh-huh. So I know j just the last topic on rejection that you've experienced a lot of it at the beginning of your career and you persevered. Yet also you rejected one of the top people in the music industry.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

Many.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Can you tell us who got a rejection from you? Because I think it's super interesting for you know for our listeners to know that because they also think that these people that we're gonna mention in a minute, they think it was just smooth sailing, and everybody was like, Oh wow, and I can't wait to work with you. Yeah, and therefore, you rejected them.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

I mean, I must say that talent also evolves. Artists, they may one year be in a different situation than they are the next year. Suddenly they have songs that resonate with them, suddenly they feel differently. Like Sam Smith, for instance, wasn't was in this studio and his manager brought him over and they played a few sad songs, and he looked very sad and You got depressed. At the time, I just didn't have time, and I wasn't I didn't think this was a priority. So little did I know that he's gonna be one of the biggest artists. Or Katy Perry at the time just got dropped from her second record deal, and at the time no one wanted to work with her, and her manager was begging me to work with her, but at the time I was working with Brandy and Beyoncé, and it wasn't important. So you know, I think it pushed it aside many times.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

And then I think it might give some of um the people that are listening some hope because it's not like their careers were just filled with uh hell yeses, you know, and uh people don't know about it. And to hear that, that that actually really did happen, I think it's it's helpful for for for for for the people that might hear a few no's, you know, or hear all the no's or 100% no's as you know, as we heard.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Artists don't forget those no's.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

But come on, you didn't say a few names that we really need to say. Some names. There are like three more names that I when when when I found out I was on the floor because these are some of the biggest artists in the world. And they as they as you said, at that time they were not yet fully developed, they were not yet fully who they are today.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

Well, uh Ariana Grande is one of those where her Wendy Goldstein from her label begged me to work with her, and uh people around her all said work with her. At the time I was working with Victoria Justice, and all three were signed to a label that didn't care about the other two from Victoria's. So uh it didn't look like it was important at the time, but also at Vict in Victoria's Ariana had this jokester role where she imitated uh a lot of different voices, and somehow I didn't see it. It happened. I didn't yeah, but yeah, Ariana Grane, of course, now I would work with her, but she doesn't work with me now. That happens.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

We'll we'll wait. Maybe the stars align, you know? Sometimes the stars align and it will happen, it will happen again. Um it's also interesting because I feel like in the you know, years ago, the the artistic industry was a bit divided in a way that if you're an actor or an actress, that's what you do. If you're a singer, you're a singer. I feel like now people do a lot more, these worlds kind of intertwine. W would you say that it's accurate?

SPEAKER_00 16:23

A lot has changed, and ageism is not so much anymore. Like Rachel Platton when she came in, I think she was already almost 30 and didn't have a record deal and had a great voice. She sang for me, and I thought, wow, this really, really beautiful voice, nothing I could critique and look beautiful, but it didn't feel like she was having a record deal. And at the time it was important to have a deal to get a record out. So I didn't have time to work with her then, and then later on I wanted to, and then she had her big hit.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

And then she was hard to reach.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

And then she yeah, that's how it goes.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

That's how it goes, right? And it can change like this, right? You have a hit, you're like on top, and then somebody else has a hit and they are on top.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

Um speaking of you know how things changed, because you're talking about how it used to be, you used to have to have a record label. That's why when you came to New York, that was your main focus was to get in the door. How is it today? What would you say to somebody who, you know, has some decent talent nowadays? And um what would you advise them to do nowadays? What is it like?

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Very, very interesting time right now. Because this year, I think, is one of the first years where record labels kind of step back and don't sign all these new artists anymore hoping to develop them, but wait for an artist to reach their own virality and then come in and say, Oh, we can boost that and we can take this to a a different level.

SPEAKER_01 17:51

Do you think it's good or bad?

SPEAKER_00 17:54

It's empowering for artists who are savvy with social media because everything's on social media now. Everything is you do your own content, and if it resonates, the labels will take you serious. It's almost at a point you could be as good as you want to. You might not have a chance if you don't have your own audience catered that uh responds to you and that wants to hear from you.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

Do you think it's lazy on the label side that they're like we don't do any artist development, you people do the work, and then we just kind of pick, ready to go. And then sometimes what you see is they pick people who don't have much to do with music, but they have a huge following, and then they uh cuff on the record, and then the record is big.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

It could be an admission of defeat that with social media being everything at this point. Back in the day, you would walk the record to radio, put a $200,000 budget on the single so you could get into American radio with a new song and break it there. That was always a say saying break it on the radio. That's not happening anymore. And uh it's kind of an a realization that everything nowadays happens in your phone, on the app, that's where people connect with their artists, and this is something that the artist has to do themselves. Label can't really do much. They can boost it, but they don't create that content. This is the artist directly interacting with their audience and the labels on the sidelines.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

So, in a way, you could actually say it's a little more natural because there is like there is a call and response, call and response in a way.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

Take Janet Jackson, for instance, that was a highly curated artist, and nobody would see her in private, or Mariah Carey. Those artists, you would never see anything private at the time. It was just what the label curated and th deemed appropriate for the audience.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

So so do you have to sell your soul to be a relevant artist nowadays?

SPEAKER_00 19:54

Not at all, not at all. No, you just be yourself, and if you enjoy speaking to your audience and finding an audience, if your audience responds to you, you might not need a record label. Uh, there's a lot of very successful independent artists these days.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

What about an introverted artist? Somebody that really, you know, somebody, let's take somebody who has an incredible voice, is a really good songwriter, but they can't do that. Hi guys, you know, I'm making my coffee. What do you do with an artist like that?

SPEAKER_00 20:26

I know one, she's beautiful, gorgeous, has a beautiful voice, but is shy to do social media or to be on stage, and that's difficult. Um for me, great artists they could be totally nervous and weird in real life, but when they're on stage, they need to be confident and feel in their comfort zone and project a piece and an inner confidence that people feel, wow, I want some of that. I think that's when you win. And um, if you get nervous on stage and feel like, well, this is not my comfort zone, uh maybe it's not for you. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

So when did you start feeling confident with your work? Was it have you always been confident and you just were waiting for other people to see it, or have you gained confidence along the way with let's say with your songwriting?

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Yeah. I think it's all about being true to yourself. As long as you are on stage singing a song that you believe a hundred percent in, and a song that you would want to play to all your friends and your family because you believe in it so much, then I think it's gonna give you comfort when you're on stage performing it because you want to share this.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

That makes sense. That makes sense. So if I gave you three things, please advise an independent artist nowadays if you could just give them three things, what would the three things be?

SPEAKER_00 21:57

Nowadays it's all find your

SPEAKER_01 22:01

Find your audience and social media. One.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

Be true to yourself. Be true to yourself. And find what's unique about you. That's actually those three things.

AI Music And The Human Soul

SPEAKER_00 22:10

That's all you need.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

Easy.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Right? Done. Done. Done. We're in this crazy time of AI. I found an app. Somebody s showed me this website where you can, you know, sing a song and then pick any vocal, right? You can pick a male, a female, this kind, that kind. It's crazy. You had to you used to have to track everything. Now you can have a demo with an AI singer. There's so many possibilities at the same time. Where's the human factor? Where is the music industry headed, in your opinion? And also, what are the good things and bad things about that direction?

SPEAKER_00 22:52

It's a very interesting time in that regard, too. I mean, social media already is the great democratization of where every artist can actually find their own audience. But now with AI creating music for everyone, and it's going to be very easy. You're going to have your iPhone in in a year or two or three. And you say, I want Edda James to sing this a song with my words and give me a few options, and it's going to be perfect. It's going to be incredible. It writes songs. I've already seen some of the software that writes songs. The results could be a bit more refined, but you see where it's going. And those songs are pretty incredible because those AI algorithms have studied everything that's ever been published.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

Isn't it scary though that you know when we when we hear All of Me, one of your most beloved songs, it comes from the heart, it comes from the experience, it comes from you and John Legend really pouring your soul out. And that's the beauty of it because that's that's real. And then you have this perfectly written AI song, but it's written by a computer that kind of kills the soul. How do you feel about that? And it's a great song, and you have no complaints about the songs.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

You know, we already have this in the visual world. Like if you try runway or kybar AI or Mid Journey, those are three very popular image generation and video generation programs that we've used. We're using them a lot for music videos already. And those music videos, they don't quite look like they're people yet, but it's going there. And uh already we can do very artistic things with AI that have emotion that make you feel something.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

And and you don't think it's wrong that a machine did it, that it if the product is correct, you think it's uh it's still okay. It doesn't there's something unsulful to me about it. Um I mean Does it bother you or not?

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Of course it bothers me, but at this point uh the cats out the back and it is unstoppable and it's going to be everywhere, and and every major company is gonna have these things, and every phone is gonna

Women Producers And Real Equality

SPEAKER_00 25:10

have these, it's just gonna be there, and it's so either embrace it and kind of use it to your advantage, or you can't pretend it's not there, basically. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

But there are so few women who are music producers. Why?

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Why do you think I actually can't answer this? And I do know a few female producers, and I love working with them.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

But who do you know and who do you like?

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Uh Lauren Faith in London is one. She's good. Um Drier. Drea is one I wrote a song with Venby, who is a British star. I don't know if you know Messi in Heaven. That was a radio hit in the UK last year. She did it. Um, well, we worked with this artist, and we have something that's now going to be released soon. There are a handful of female producers, and it's getting more and it's easier and easier nowadays for everyone to produce. I'm not saying that it was difficult then and only men could do it. That's bullshit.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Well, you know, you know, I don't know if you remember how we met because because you know, when you have the like several times in your life, you have like the aha moment, and you were my aha moment because we are, you know, we we our kids went to school together. Yes, and we were, you know, parents. I didn't know what Toby did, and uh we were looking at some assembly or something, and kids were singing, and we I was friendly with your wife, but I but I didn't know what you did. And and then after the assembly, you you walked up to me and and you said, Oh, your daughter, you know, she she she has a nice voice. Maybe she wants to come to the studio, maybe maybe she wants to. I I have somebody who maybe could teach her production, maybe she would want to learn production. And I looked at you as if you just asked me if she wants to go to Mars. And I think I there were so many shocking things about your question to me. Uh they were, I think, 10 years old at the at the time when when I was like, wait a minute, a 10-year-old can learn how to produce? Second, they are girls, which just scared me immensely. I was like, oh my god, me, the biggest feminist? And my first thought is, oh, girls producing, you know, it was just insane.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

And now your daughter has released her own records and they're amazing.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

And now and now she's learning production and all that. But I was shocked that I had all these doubts when you were again the entrepreneur. You were like, Yeah, they're 10, they they should be producing. So you're I really, you know, on top of all your incredible accomplishments, I really find you a feminist and somebody who wishes uh women in music well. And now your daughter is entering the music business, and she's a songwriter, she's a singer.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Also, in my label, I have two young women who help me. And I used to always have male assistants until now, and we have such great chemistry, and I love coming to work and working with both of them, they're amazing.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

I'm sure you talk to your daughter a lot. Um, is there a different kind of advice that you would give a female start artist who is starting than you would give a male one?

SPEAKER_00 28:30

Not anymore. Not anymore. Not anymore. I think the times have changed, and I think there is definitely equality in my perception. It may not be in numbers yet, but um I feel a hundred percent the same thing can be achieved by any gender.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

So do you feel like when you work every day and you you know collaborate with different people, do you do you feel like it's changing? Like do you feel like there are more female not even artists, because artists have been always in the spotlight, but behind the scenes, you know, people that mix, people that um produce? You said already you you you worked with a few managers. Yeah, do you feel like it's shifting a bit?

SPEAKER_02 29:17

A lot.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

A lot.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

A lot, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

Do you think some people are not happy about it? Do you think some people are annoyed at it or not? Like when you look around at your friends, not anymore. Is it a positive thing? Are people really willing to help women kind of be embraced in the music?

SPEAKER_00 29:35

I think in the last 10 years we've seen this shift, and I think it's very much accepted now. I don't think maybe the old guards are already leaving.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

That's a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

Because it's a young business. Music business, the young people have the power, and the the ears of the young people mean more than the ears of the old CEOs.

SPEAKER_01 29:54

So that's a good thing. Yeah. Um, speaking of ears, how do you how do you really keep up to date with ears? Because sometimes we get stuck in our ways. We like certain things, we're familiar with certain things, but the music is changing, and you know, it's very common that like your grandparents kind of stopped at a certain time frame, and then the people that are, you know, 15 listen to completely different music.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

Do you actively listen to music or do you just work all the time and you're kind of in the midst of it?

SPEAKER_00 30:28

I think I'm a bit of an anomaly in that sense, because I've never tried to be trendy with my music. Maybe I have at some point, but in general, I'm trying to write timeless songs. Songs that will be there in 10, 20 years from now. And I've gotten lucky a few times with that, but it's always been my goal to write evergreens and not to write songs that are super trendy this year and maybe next year and then out.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

Well, is it has it been the case with with some of your songs? We're like waiting for their shine moment, right? Some songs are written and they didn't see the light of day until years later, and then they finally did, and they were hits.

Writing Evergreens That Take Years

SPEAKER_01 31:05

What were the songs that kind of were waiting for their turn?

SPEAKER_00 31:08

Yeah, Biggie's Don't Cry. I wrote it with Fergie in 2002, and it took six years for the song to come out.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

Did you play it to other people before?

SPEAKER_00 31:16

I recorded it with two different artists. One was signed to Columbia Records and got dropped, one was signed to PD P. Diddy at the time. But uh, just before that song was going to go somewhere, Fergie eventually said she had a chance after two or three Black Eyed Peace albums to do her own album. And at first the song wasn't gonna be on the record, and then she said, I want to record this too. Then it wasn't gonna be a single, it was her fourth single of the album and her biggest song.

SPEAKER_01 31:42

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Took a long time.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

Also, what I find incredible is if I were a boy, it was the song that was shown a lot before Beyonce put her eyes on it and said, I want this one. Can you tell us more about that?

SPEAKER_00 32:00

Several people now, one of them is the CEO right now of one of the big labels. Clearly said, I'm not going to play this to Kelly Clarkson.

SPEAKER_01 32:13

They must be weeping, weeping.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

We're laughing about it now.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

When I see him, then but it's interesting that you're saying it's like the Evergreens, you know, you can change a bit of production, you can update the sound, but if the song is amazing, it will just always be great. So if you guys have some songs that are great and you feel like, oh, you know, nobody picked it up yet, there's hope. There it just might need a few more years and beyon set to hear it, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:41

I feel a lot of a lot of the good songs are songs that you can play on any instrument or just sing them or just with a simple piano and they make you intensely feel something. If if that's the case and they don't depend on a production, then I think you might be onto something.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

So how do you give um feedback to your daughter? Because feedback with young artists, it's a very delicate matter, right?

SPEAKER_00 33:12

I kept telling everyone that um never try the music business because it's 99.9% rejection and letdowns and failure, and it's gonna destroy you unless you have you think you're delusional and you really have to be able to do it. So we need to be delusional. That's that's the key. And that's why my daughter, until she was, I think, nine years old or so, didn't let me know that she sings. And then at one of my birthday parties, I think ten years old. She was ten years old. At one of my birthday parties, you might have been there. She sang all of me, and I was in tears. It was so good, and I couldn't believe it. And you didn't know? I didn't know she could sing, no. I mean, I heard rumors, but she would never sing in front of me or let me know.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

She's intimidated. Because of I gave that advice and of like never going to say it's the words because then they do this. Be a lawyer, do something like straightforward.

SPEAKER_00 34:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

Well, she's she's doing great and she she's developed. She opened up style.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

She opened up the set and sang with her just three weeks ago. That was a good one. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

Yeah. So speaking of young artists and social media, which we know it's like, you know, it's like your best friend and your worst enemy, kind of, because it's your best friend because you have a direct contact with fans. It's your worst enemy because we know there is a lot of, you know, bad stuff there. There's a lot of frustration, name-calling, you know, somebody has a bad day and they're anonymous and they're just gonna, you know, do something really bad. How would you, if there is even a way to protect a young artist, like your daughter or any other, is there a way to protect her? Comes with the territory. Or they just have to, you know, kind of develop a thick skin.

Thick Skin For Young Artists

SPEAKER_01 35:00

What would you say if they read something really hurtful?

SPEAKER_00 35:03

I know.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Really mean, like really meant to hurt, what you do need a thick skin.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

You need a thick skin. But I mean, if if all the responses are like you suck, you suck, forget it. Maybe you should maybe you should rethink it. But if it's one out of a hundred or so, then maybe this is someone who had a bad day and wants to rant, and this is their way of saying things. The internet's anonymous, unfortunately, so you don't know that.

SPEAKER_01 35:27

But then look, you had 100% rejection rate at some point. So I'm the loop crazy. And you kept going and look at you, right? So it's it's a very interesting, it's a very interesting um decision to make because maybe years go by and then somebody really develops and then there is a whole new identity that's kind of my theory too.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

If you forbid the children to touch the instruments and to make music, then if they still do it and they really want to do it, then maybe they have a little chance to go past all that rejection and past all that it's not for you thing.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

Got it. Got it. So we're in your incredible studio. It's impossible to leave. I think you're gonna have a hard time getting rid of us today because it's just magical. What are the weirdest sessions you've had in here? I mean, there's a pool. Has there been like jumping in the pool and out of the pool? Like one direction. You know, people undressing, or I don't know. Just it just kind of asks for it, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 36:32

All the five boys from One Direction, shirtless, jumped in the pool and I wasn't on here! But it happened.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

Was it before or after writing a song?

SPEAKER_00 36:42

That was during. We wrote a song on the album.

SPEAKER_01 36:45

What was the song? What song is that? Was it truly Madly Deeply, I think? That would kind of be appropriate.

SPEAKER_00 36:53

One of those songs. It's a long time ago.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

That's that's that's that's wonderful. That's wonderful. Yeah, the studio is just pure pure magic. What is something that you're really excited about today? Because you have all these accomplishments and people love your song. People hold them, you know, near their heart. And these are people's songs. I feel like the measure of a songwriter is when people think it's their song, they they sing it as their own. And uh, you know, and that's what happened with your songs. Yeah. So you have you could kind of you know sit back and get massages all day, but but but you don't. What is something you're really excited about today, and what is that you're what is there something you're looking forward to?

SPEAKER_00 37:40

Yeah. Well, um, two years ago, I I was a judge on German Idol, and I enjoyed being a judge, and I was celebrated for being a songwriter. And in Germany, Idol is still a big deal. It was Saturday night, two to four hours, prime time, 18 television shows.

Re-Recording Hits And Going Independent

SPEAKER_00 37:55

So it was a lot of television, but I found out I love being in front of cameras, and I I love doing this and loved being celebrated as a songwriter, but I wasn't really doing much anymore. I was learning how to surf, renovating houses, kind of tuning out a little bit already. And and then just recently, we were in London for six months, and a lot of British producers they just released songs on the side independently, whatever. That so that gave me the idea that I want to look back at my biggest songs and re-record them as timeless piano versions. And so we started in November. We started with Big Earls Don't Cry. I had Victoria Justice sing my Fergie song, Big Earths Don't Cry. We did a piano string version uh with orchestration, and we performed it on a Kelly Clarkson show, and uh different KTLA and different news organizations got really good feedback, and then we did the Demilovato skyscraper song and just independently released it. And Little Do You Know after that with Kiki Palmer and Allo Black, and then Untouched with Johnny Orlando, he's a TikTok star. And Now, if I were a boy with Angelina Jordan, she's an 18-year-old artist who um Universal Republic allowed us to borrow their artist, which was really nice. And now All of Me is coming out soon with Selena Sharma. She's a big TikToker, British Indian, and we might even do a big duet with an Indian celebrity. That's exciting. There's a lot that I'm super excited about, and we are figuring out how do we independently release these covers of my own songs. All my life I've all never done covers. I've rejected the idea of recording a song that already exists. It always had to be a first, but now I'm doing cover my covers. But um then September comes September, we're going to self-release originals, and I'm thrilled about it. So really, really excited about music again, and really thankful for the power that gets handed to everyone who is self-releasing these days. It's become fun for me again. It actually wasn't fun towards the last the last couple of years weren't that much fun anymore. You always have to uh hope that the label will take one out of the five songs you've just written with the artist. James Arthur. I did amazing work with James Arthur. They were gonna take one song and then even didn't even take that song. But I think maybe next year they will. I I feel that work is so good that I want to self-release these songs. And I want to get to a point where labels trust me with their artists and say, Toby, you can just self-release it with them, which Universal Republic has done three times so far. And we're getting to this point. I'm so excited about it.

SPEAKER_01 40:46

Incredible. Um, Toby, it's such an honor to talk to you, and you're such an inspiring person. And uh thank you for talking to us. I I would love to take you outside for a little bit of a different angle of a conversation. Sure. Um, thank you so much for sharing this magical space. It really

Gratitude And Closing Moments

SPEAKER_01 41:10

is a gift just to be here. I hope you guys feel it because obviously we're through the camera, and I hope you get the feeling that this place has a very high, incredible vibration. And just to be here, it it's like it doesn't only make your day, it makes your month. You know, it's really it's incredible. Thank you for for having us in your sacred creative space. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

Thank you.