What's The Scuttlebutt Podcast
Step into history with The What’s The Scuttlebutt Podcast (WTSPWWII), your go-to source for deep dives into the events, untold stories, and extraordinary individuals of World War II. In some episodes, we bring you firsthand accounts from veterans who served on the front lines, offering their personal experiences and unique perspectives on the realities of war. We also sit down with acclaimed authors who have dedicated their careers to uncovering hidden narratives and shedding light on lesser-known aspects of the conflict. But we don’t stop at books and battlefield accounts—we also explore the world of WWII cinema. From directors and producers to screenwriters, we talk with the creative minds behind the films that bring history to life on the big screen. For those who live history firsthand, we feature dedicated WWII reenactors who meticulously recreate battles, uniforms, and daily life from the era, offering an immersive glimpse into the past. Whether you’re a history enthusiast, a military buff, or simply fascinated by the human stories that emerged from this defining moment in history, WTSPWWII is your ultimate destination. Join us as we honor the past, celebrate the heroes, and preserve the legacy of World War II for generations to come.
What's The Scuttlebutt Podcast
Fifty-Three Days on Starvation Island with John Bruning
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SPEAKER_00Digital 410 Media proudly presents the What's the Scuttle Butt Podcast with your hosts, Don Abernathy, Jeff Copsetta, and Dennis Blocker.
SPEAKER_01Welcome everybody to another episode of What's the Scuttlebutt Podcast, your favorite podcast. This is Jeff Copset. I'm standing in for Don Abernathy tonight, and I'm joined as always by my wingman, Dennis Blocker. Dennis, how are you doing tonight?
SPEAKER_05Doing excellent. Super stoked about our guest tonight.
SPEAKER_01Oh man, that's that's an understatement. And then also our trusty sidekick, no, not Rosie the Riveter. It's Zach the producer. He's a little prettier than Rosie. Zach, how you doing?
SPEAKER_02Doing very good. Very good. Thanks, Jeff. Appreciate that.
SPEAKER_01Well, I uh we're gonna get right into this thing. We're gonna let Zach uh introduce our very special guest tonight because without Zach, we probably wouldn't have him. So, Zach, take it away. Alright. Thanks, Jeff.
SPEAKER_03Folks, we have another one for the record books tonight. He is the best-selling author of 27 books, including Race of Aces, one of my favorites, Indestructible, and his brand new book, 53 Days on Starvation Island, The Story of the Marine, Airmen, and Pilots Who Saved Guadacanal. It is my opinion, it is, in my opinion, the best book that has ever been written on the Battle of Guadacanal, and it's definitely in my top five favorite World War II books of all time. For his reporting in Afghanistan, the Department of Defense presented him with the Thomas Jefferson Award in 2010. And for his work with the Oregon National Guard, he was inducted into the 162nd Infantry Regiment as an honorary member in 2011. Joining us tonight from Oregon is our very special guest, author John Bruning. Thank you, John, for joining us tonight.
SPEAKER_06Thank you, Jack. It's a real honor to be here. I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. So we have so many questions that we want to get to tonight, John. But first, for those in the audience that may not be experts on the Battle of Guadacanal or the Pacific War, why don't you give us a little background and then why don't you talk about the three Marines that this story focuses on? And I see you also have a friend joining us, too.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, okay. Sylvie is my riding cat. Anybody who follows me on social media sees a lot of her. Um, she is definitely going to be a presence tonight. I apologize. Uh, it's either this or she'll sit at the uh hangar door screaming, and we can't have that. Uh, but I do have treats that can keep her at bay. Um the uh the story of Guadalcanal is the story of a hastily thrown together offensive born out of desperation. So uh keep in mind that this is the summer of 1942. Uh the Japanese are still ascended in the Pacific, even though they have suffered a major setback at Guadalcanal. I mean, at Midway uh in June of 1942. Uh they were still offensively inclined and still had the strategic initiative, and they were working their way towards trying to cut off the supply lines and the sea lanes between the U.S. and Australia by moving down the Solomon Islands into the New Hebrides and establishing a chain of air bases where uh long-range bombers could strike at the uh the supply convoys going to Australia. That was such a threat that the Pentagon and the president decided, uh well, the War Department at the time, uh decided that it had to be countered and stopped. Otherwise, our very position in the in the Pacific could have been compromised because Australia was going to be essentially a giant supply base for our uh future advances in the Southwest Pacific Theater and into ultimately the Philippines. So uh the idea was to uh in uh recapture the island of Guadalcanal at the southern end of the Stallman Islands, where the Japanese were building a long-range, long-range bomber base. The airfield was not yet complete, but it was being hastily worked on, and the speed at which they were actually uh able to cut this strip out of the jungle uh prompted the Americans to push the uh invasion date up. So everything was very hastily thrown together. We had uh the 1st Marine Division was in in the area uh in theater, uh, but they hadn't seen any combat. So they would be the primary instrument to actually retake this island until uh more reinforcements could get in, U.S. Army units mainly. Uh the whole thing was done on a shoestring. Uh, we didn't really know how to plan an offensive. It was our first of World War II, and they made many, many, many errors. One of my guys later, uh uh uh Dick Mangrum, the uh VMSB-232 skipper, once quipped that uh the airplan for the invasion was an afterthought. And that was really, really true. Uh the idea was to get the Marines on the island to finish the base. Once the airfield was complete, they would get a couple of squadrons of marine aircraft up to protect the perimeter around the around the airfield. Uh bottom line, uh, they didn't really plan that very well, and it turned into a complete and total cluster from the get-go. And the story that I have written about uh is the story of the guys who who essentially made um uh made a success out of that cluster. And it was very, very difficult. Uh, you can tell through the course of the book that these guys really suffered, and they suffered for years afterwards. Uh, try to make that point towards the end of the book. But uh this was our first offensive of World War II, and ultimately what happened at the beginning of it was the Marines were able to land and successfully uh take the airfield and start to get it back into or get it into commission. And yet uh the Navy suffered a serious naval defeat at a place or at a battle called Savo Island, where four cruisers were sunk, uh, which prompted the Navy to withdraw from the area for several weeks, and that left the Marines out on a limb with barely any supplies, only a couple of units of ammunition. Uh they were living off of captured Japanese rice, and it was into that situation where the Japanese had air superiority and naval superiority around the island that uh the two squadrons I wrote about uh in 53 days joined the fight.
SPEAKER_01So now you said something interesting there, John, uh uh units of fire, just a few units of fire. Now, uh our our audience may not be familiar with uh that form of measurement, and if you could fill us in, because I think it's important when you think about a unit of fire and how long they had to make it last.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I can't remember off the top of my head how many days worth it was, but a unit of fire was one day's worth of full ammunition loadout for the first Marine Division, and I think they only had three or four units of fire initially. And all the while the Japanese were running supplies and uh reinforcements, troop reinforcements down to the island uh to you know, obviously try to seize the airfield again. The Marines had to build this perimeter around the airfield with uh a division of troops, they just had uh there were gaps. There were gaps because the the uh the regiments were spread so thin. And that plays into the climax of this book for sure with the uh Battle of Edson's Ridge, which we can get into later. Yeah, but basically, had had the Japanese been able to put uh a solid brigade or division down as a response to the initial invasion, which was August 7th, 1942, within a couple of weeks, the Marines wouldn't have had the ammunition to hold.
SPEAKER_03Wow. So, John, you did you briefly touched on the the three Marines that this story focuses on. They're John L. Smith from VMF 223, Marian Carl, another pilot from VMF 23, and then Dick Mangrum from you mentioned VMSB 232. I believe they were also known as the Red Devils. So these were some incredible pilots and just an incredible story once they got on the island. The question I have for you is how how do you how do you do it, John? How do you get such detailed and amazing information about these guys for your books? I mean, these are inner thoughts, conversations, you know, songs uh around a fire that that that they're recalling memories. Like, how do you do this? How did you get these?
SPEAKER_06I was I was very blessed to have met Marion Carl. He was the first World War II veteran I ever interviewed uh when I was in graduate school. I was at the uh at the University of Oregon uh for grad school. I was studying military history, which the UFO is not a good place to do that. Uh, but I was, and he lived in Roseburg, just south of uh Eugene. And I went down um had a first-year grad student with a mullet. I wrote about this in the book actually, at the end. Um, and I drove the car that's sitting behind me right now down to to meet him. So I I rolled up in a 1956 Ford Victoria two-door hardtop and sat down in uh General Carl's living room and uh spent an afternoon talking with him. And the details that he provided uh were the basis for much of this book, to be honest. Um, it was something that uh was in the back of my mind from the day I left his house to write this story somehow. And I was finally able to make it happen during COVID. I was very blessed. Um beyond the actual first-person uh uh oral history interviews, I also interviewed Dennis Byrd, who was uh Dick Mangrum's gunner, and he and I corresponded for years. Um there were letters that I had, um diary entries, logbooks, uh newspaper articles, uh magazine articles that some of the the guys wrote when they come came back, who subsequently died in training accidents or in combat on subsequent deployments. So that was amazing. And then talking with the families as well. Uh some of the family members provided incredible resources to me. Uh and then um uh there were there were many, many other other sources, including my research assistant and and dear friend Larry. He and I, along with Bruce uh um Carl, who is Mary Carl's son, uh spent a weekend together at uh General Carl's house. And Larry had spent years and years talking with guys from 223 and 221 from Midway, and he was able to share with me some uh just amazing insight. So it was a uh uh it was an incredible collaboration, and Lar Larry Lastice is is a fantastic historian in his own right. So uh I I don't think I could have finished the book uh in the way it is without his help. In fact, I know it. So yeah, the the sources were were many and varied. I was also you know, the funny thing is the records for VMF 223, especially and Mag 23 are just a shambles, and there's multiple um iterations of them. It's like in the moment there was one, then when they got back, um Colonel Feich uh redid them and expanded on them, I think. And then there was another one that was amended later by the VMF 223 uh uh association. And I was very lucky to have a family friend who was in 223 in a subsequent uh deployment later in the war on Okinawa, and he was able to provide that annotated one to me, which gave me some of the the just most amazing little vignettes and stories about the about the men, especially how they ended up getting home. Uh that all came out of that iteration of the of the documentation.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I know we we said we weren't gonna do spoilers. I mean, I know that most most people know that Guadacanal, what happened there, but I eventually happened there. But I gotta say that I I don't I didn't have the time to read the book. So what I did was I got the audio version. And when I'm working in the ranch that I work at after my other job, I'm chainsawing trees. And I really wish there was a time capsule that I could have jumped into and gone back and punched the guys in the face that disrespected those ground crews that were getting home after everything they had endured and the things that they had made happen out of sheer gut and tenacity and love for the pilots. And the officers even stayed back to make sure, like, okay, everything's in order, everything's in line, the guys are squared away. And then this idiot and the ramps, I was like, man, with a chainsaw on my hand is probably not a good thing. Because I was like, oh my gosh, I want to just like I just I just skipped way ahead, and I apologize for that. But you know, and and and if I I'll just say this and then I'll let you continue on what you were saying. I'm so sorry for interrupting, but it just memory. But I mean there were several moments I shed tears during this book. And for us guys with our backgrounds for everything that we've seen in emergency medicine and combat, for us to to do that, it's this book is gonna touch a lot of people's hearts. It's really, and you did good on these guys. I mean, I I I when I when I stepped away from it, I thought I I looked over and I saw cars driving down the road, and I thought, what a shame it is that they don't know these guys' names. You know, like how much we all oh, how much my grandfather who went to Pearl in '44 and stepped aboard to LCI 449 gunboat, like how fortunate he was that these guys had come before and made it possible that he could even go to Pearl and step aboard in in peace and not have to worry about being shot out of the, you know, it's powerful, powerful. And you did you did good. You did really good for these men.
SPEAKER_06Thank you. That that means the world to me. I mean, uh honestly, I was late on the book and I didn't want to compromise and cut it short and and you know meet a deadline that was important to my career. I what was important to me was these men and their families get the recognition they deserve because I mean most of these kids, like Scotty McClennon, nobody's ever heard of him. He's still MIA. I that's a spoiler, sorry. Um what blew me away about the men who composed these two units is they came from every socioeconomic background. There were ivy leaguers, there were dirt farmers from from Florida, there were people whose dads worked in the trades. Uh, and then you had guys like Scotty, who who you know, he grew up with with nine um servants in his house outside of Chicago, and uh his family rubbed elbows with some of the uh the most politically powerful people in the country. And yet, for all their differences in their backgrounds, when they were thrown into the Marine Corps, they shared a love of aviation that was um the great initial bond for them. And then, you know, obviously the fact that they were all Marines was also a factor, but they did not have time to bond like a normal unit because they were thrown together so quickly in July of 42. Most of them had come straight out of the training pipeline, didn't have carrier qualifications, they didn't have uh any of the basic combat training that Marines and U.S. naval aviators, um, U.S. Navy pilots would undergo before they first saw the enemy later. There wasn't time for that. They were the stopgap. And in fact, uh the morning they were about to fly to Guadalcanal, their senior officer present, Colonel Feich, told them, your job is to absorb firepower and buy time for the real units that are going to be coming in. So they were essentially expected to die. And they were told as much uh because they didn't have the experience, they didn't have the uh uh the knowledge base needed to fly a combat aircraft against the most experienced veteran combat aviators in the world at that time, which you know were the guys flying out of Rabaul for the Japanese. I mean, some of those guys were aces in 1937-38. Uh they'd been flying combat for five years. And I mean, my gosh, the first time some of them got into battle, uh, the Americans that they were to face at Guadalcanal that are in this book were still freshmen in high school. So uh the odds were long, and the fact that they not only were able to hold the line until other units got in, but they were able to do so much damage is not only a testament to them, but it's a testament to their immediate leaders like John L. Smith and Dick Mankro. And I really wanted to do right by them and by this story. So thank you so much for what you just said. That means a lot.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, Dennis, and and and we all completely agree with you. And and John, what you were just saying, too, is a perfect segue into what I wanted to touch on because this your book goes beyond Guadalcanal. It goes beyond uh marine aviators. What I took from it um was this is a this is the story of the human experience in combat. This is the story of uh you know the Spartans at Thermopylae. This is the story of the seventh calf uh in Montana. This is the story of every uh experience in combat rolled into 53 days on some island nobody cared about in 1942. That's really what I took away from it. I uh my baptism of fire was Baghdad in 2004, and I saw so many guys that I served with. In these squadrons. And I've read so many books on the Second World War, so many books on combat in general. And that's what this book is. You don't have to know anything about the Pacific War. You don't have to know anything about World War II to take away what you gave to us on a piece of paper that you created a legacy not just for these three amazing individuals, but for an entire generation of Americans. If there's one story, in my opinion, that people need to know, it's this one. Because uh it's so much bigger than themselves. And to know how young they were, right? We we we know it these were pimply faced kids that you know barely got a chance to kiss their girlfriend on the farm before they went off and and rid the world of tyranny. You know, it's not like the movies. We all know that, right? Um and you what's something you mentioned in the book too, which I thought was just pristine, was the bell curve of guys' experiences, the way you described the bell curve of they're brand new. And let's face it, it's not like they're yeah, they're brand new, but it's not like they're getting into a far superior aircraft either. Right? It's it's not like they've got that advantage working. So they're facing not just um you know experienced Japanese pilots, but experienced Japanese pilots with better weapons and better aircraft. So they're behind the eight-ball multiple times here. Um but that bell curve, that that analogy to me, I thought was just spot on. And I listen, I don't actually have an intelligent question to ask you here. Uh it's more comment-based, but thank you. Yeah. Uh, you know, because this is we needed this. We needed this. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03If I could say one more thing, John, right before you were saw, I I have to add to all of this because it's to Dennis's, to Jeff's, to the thank you, to the theme of all of that. What you did, John, with this book, you didn't just put names on a page and put facts on a page. Because I've read Thomas Miller's The Cactus Air Force. This is not the Cactus Air Force. I thought your book was what I was gonna get when I read Cactus Air Force. It's not that, that's mostly facts. It's still a great book, but what you did, John, is you took men, and by the end of the book, they're not just names anymore. You know, like you said, they're Scotty, they're brownie, they're baldy, they're Zed. You know, they're you feel like you were best friends with them. So it's in the theme of what these two gentlemen just said. Thank you. Thank you for humanizing this experience and this and explaining combat in a way that normal readers can understand.
SPEAKER_06Wow, guys. Thank you. You know, this is this is my life purpose. And you know, I it's uh Jeff, um I wrote a uh a book uh in 06 called The Devil's Sandbox about uh an Oregon National Guard unit that was in Baghdad in 04-05 during OIF two. And um I I was with the uh I didn't learn of the story until most of the guys were uh starting to come home. Uh so I wasn't out there at in a in Iraq with them, but I was with them in Katrina and I lived with them uh on the grounds of the New Orleans Baptist Seminary and got to know them. Had many, many long night, you know, nights talking with them and going on patrols with them. I realized um a couple things. First, if I was going to keep writing about combat, I needed to go experience it. But also um I had a mentor early in my career who was like who told me you've got to see these war stories as male adventure novels, and that's kind of how I I approached the craft for years until that book. And then when I went to combat in Afghanistan and saw what was going on, and you know that there is that um probably truly unreachable reachable goal of you know having a band of brothers. Uh, what I saw was you had really close-knit clicks within a unit, and then there was a lot of um tension and interpersonal issues. Uh so it was, you know, it's flawed. And I guess when you look back in 50, 60 years, like they did with uh the unit from the 101st that that story is about, um you forget some of that. Uh and so I wanted to remember it. And when I came back, I I wrote about some of the dichotomies that I saw in combat through the story that um Sean Parnell and I wrote with Outlaw Platoon. And you know, flash forward to when I'm able to actually write uh 53 days, you know, these kids they were they were totally psychologically unprepared for what they were dealing with. It wasn't just a matter of of no combat training and minimal training in type. I mean, before they joined the squadrons in July and they were on the boat to get to Guadalcanal starting August 3rd, I think, is when they departed Pearl. So literally, they only had a few weeks of training time to get to know each other and to learn the aircraft that they would be flying. But they also were not psychologically prepared for what combat was going to require of them. And almost all of them measured up. That is just a testament to them. I mean, a couple of them didn't. Um, but the vast majority, 98%, did. And they weren't just fighting in the air. That's the thing that made this 53 days such a crucible of hell. Um, they were on the ground. They were sleeping in an area that was periodically under artillery fire, periodically bombarded by naval gun fire from warships offshore, uh, bombed from the air at night by washing machine Charlie. They were sniped. One of the fighter pilots was actually shot in the rear end while he was uh washing in a nearby river and became a casualty, a ground casualty as a result. Uh they were they were literally in a war zone 24-7. And when we culminate the book at Edson's Ridge, there was actually a small force of Japanese that got into the perimeter and and made it to the aircraft that these guys were flying. And there's a moment in the book where one of the naval aviators who was attached to VMSB-232, Hal Buell, goes to his SBD Dauntless, and there's a smear of blood uh on the on the side of it, and a marine sitting in the cockpit with a trommy gun. And he'd actually killed a Japanese soldier who'd come up onto the aircraft to try to destroy it. Uh, so that's that's the nature of what they were dealing with in terms of combat. And then when you layer in the living conditions, the fact that they didn't for over a week and a half, they didn't even have tents. They were just living there uh in the jungle, they didn't have mess kits, they didn't have uh proper food, they were living off of Japanese rice and uh captured Japanese food stocks. Uh they didn't have uh any kind of um effectively enclosed spaces, like you know, undamaged hangars to work on the aircraft. They didn't even have engine stands. Uh when when VMSB-232 first landed, they had one guy who was an armorer who came along as a gunner. They didn't have any bomb uh carts. So, you know, here they are expected to go sink warships with thousand-pound bombs that had been left by uh a transient uh U.S. Navy unit that had stopped to refuel at Guadalcanal. These bombs had to be hand carried to the aircraft and then lifted up onto the SBD's bomb shackles by hand, and they had to do that day after day, week after week. And even when the ship arrived that had that stuff, it ran aground repeatedly through mismanagement. The captain was an idiot, and uh they had to pitch most of that stuff overboard. So even what did arrive in early September was not nearly uh enough to outfit both squadrons, plus the other ones that were coming in piecemeal to to try to backfill them. So I I mean, this was just a crazy set of outlier circumstances, and these guys, the the the thing that just blew me away as I got to know them writing this book is that they measured up. They measured up, they were the measure of the moment. And over and over again, you know, you see the consequences of that in their later lives. And that is the the real cost of what happened during those 53 days. It those those 53 days uh transformed the lives of every person who survived. They all went on, they did, some of them did great things, some of them struggled, but none of them emerged from that unscathed. And that's why I started the book in Washington, D.C. after the deployment. I wanted to show, yeah, you know, there is a dark side here that comes back with you. And and you know, these guys at the start of the book, uh, Marion and uh Dick and John L, they're sitting in a in a hotel, I mean, a uh a very posh restaurant in Washington, D.C. near the Navy Department. And they're surrounded by all of these officers with pristine uniforms, and they're literally 10 days removed from wearing rags and you know being constantly stricken with the bends from dysentery. And you know, there's China on and nice, you know, flatware and you know, cloth napkins. I mean, it was just culture shock coming back to that and seeing the country just really not yet even in a mode to understand what it was gonna cost and take to win this war. And I mean, this is long before the blizzard of Western Union telegram started, you know, papering every neighborhood and town in America. And so we we as a nation hadn't really risen to the occasion yet. It was all seemingly just a uh you know grand adventure that you saw in the newspapers and periodically somebody lost their lives in your area. But uh these were the guys who were the first back, and they're the ones who were the first to suffer that disconnect between the society that they protected and defended and fought for, and the civilians and and the military officers and personnel who were who were still state stateside and had not yet seen combat.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh it just reinforces something that you know I I've said this so much. Now I don't I didn't serve with with the Oregon National Guard and OAF two, but it was Washington and in Arkansas. Washington was first of the 161, I think.
SPEAKER_06Oh, you're with the 39th Brigade.
SPEAKER_01Probably. I was 3rd Brigade first case, but yeah, Washington. Washington was attached and first of the 153rd from Arkansas was attached for OAF2. And um I've said this a thousand times. Uh the hardest part about going over there is coming home. And your book hammered that home uh so so well. And there's something else I want to touch on too, and something I want to share with you. Um because when when Zach first introduced this to your book, he said, guys, you know, this is this is a must-read. It's a top five. And you know, I'm thinking Guadalajara Canal is what started it for me. I grew up just around the corner. I grew up in in rural South Jersey. My dad retired from police department there. We moved to central Texas here in the 90s and spent the rest of my life here. But walking to school, I would pass the house of a uh of a Marine. That's all we knew. Oh, he was a Marine in World War II, and he ended up being part of the first Raider Battalion that served at Guadalcanal. So, of course, he was impressed that this 13, 14-year-old kid had heard of Guadalcanal. Um, so we really got close. And uh unfortunately, I was too young to really honestly comprehend half of what he was telling me at that at that age. And I was also too young to think to actually record uh any of our conversations. Um but he Guadalucanal is what really that's the genesis of my interest in World War II. Um I the first book I read was Guadalcanal Diary. So, and I'm not more of an eighth Air Force uh you know fanatic myself, but uh the Pacific still warms my heart. I spent five years working for the National Museum of the Pacific War in Living History, so uh it's still a very hot topic. When Zach introduced us to this, uh I went backwards and I reread Guadalcanal Diary. I hadn't read it in 30 years. I reread Guadalcanal Diary, and then I picked up Eric Hamill's pictorial history of Guadalcanal. Of course, like that's what you do, right? When I you gotta have an Eric Hamill when you're studying a battle.
SPEAKER_06Oh, absolutely. I have a great Eric Hamill story for you, too. He was a dear, dear friend.
SPEAKER_01So then I started your book, and I think I I think I read 70, 80, 90 pages before I think I even blinked. Um, and I got to a part that I'd read in several books, and it was like, okay, I gotta find it. So we talked about, or you talked about the the lack of support, the lack of supplies. The Navy leaves them, they've got no food, their unit of fire is about running out, no armors, they're hand-pumping Avgas. It's the worst nightmare you could think of. Um, and the intelligence aspect, and something you mentioned, I think we've all read it in at least one book, that the only maps anybody had of Guadalcanal at the time was from some old National Geographic magazine. Well, thank you, Mr. Bruning, for for pointing that out, because it didn't take me long.
SPEAKER_05He got it, my guys.
SPEAKER_01So, for our listeners, if you've read a book, and and you better read John Bruning's books, but if you've read a book where you've come across the line that says the guys at Guadalajan had no intelligence, the only maps they had were some old National Geographics they found on the ship. It's the March of 1934 issue. And it's the very first uh article, Coconuts and Coral Islands by H. Ian Hogman. It's about 25 illustrations, pictures from the author, hand-drawn maps. This is this is not what the military considers intelligence, guys. I just want to let you know, this is not how the military operates. But in the summer of 1942, this is how they operated. Uh, and at a time when, boy, did we need a win. Uh, I know we were probably riding a bit of a high at Midway, but let's face it, and you touched on it, the issues, the scandals with Brewster and some of our uh big aircraft firms, some of the people that were just out to turn a buck, some of the people that were on strike at some of the defense factories, the racial issues we had in Detroit. People were striking, people were being killed uh during some of these riots. People were writing articles uh in early 1943 about how we lost over 16,000 killed in action in 1942, but we lost 22,000 factory workers to traffic accidents. You know, America's always been America, right? We can't get away from that. We can't get away from that. We really can't. Um But you to just really truly absorb the full story, the full measure of what it took, and like you said, man, boy, did they measure up.
SPEAKER_06They did. Um Jeff, I actually have a question for you. Uh when you said the hardest part of your deployment was coming home, how so? Tell me about that, because it was the exact same way for me, and for a lot of these guys, it was as well. And it's a phenomenon I think anybody who's been to combat will understand, but most civilians here at home don't get it all.
SPEAKER_01Combat combat's easy. Combat's easy. I I served for the best military for the best country on planet earth. I knew everything I needed to do. Uh, and if you get snuffed out, um what a better way to go. There's no better way to go. Um living with it the rest of your life is tough. And and I'll leave you with this. We my platoon uh we lost more guys to suicide than we did killed in action. So it's hard coming home.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I'm really sorry to hear that.
SPEAKER_06Um, yeah, for for me, it was the same way. It was uh combat was incredibly simple. I didn't have to think. All I needed to do was grab my camera, my notebook, get on the helicopter and go wherever we were going that day to whatever village or whatever we were doing. Um food was provided. I didn't have to worry about money, I didn't have bills, I didn't have to worry about taxes. You learn more about your home front than you ever want to know. And that's something that these guys on Guadalcanal discovered in horrible ways. I mean, the whole Dear John letter is a uh is a trope these days, but that was that was a major, major morale killer. You know, uh mail was a double-edged sword. You could get letters that would sustain you and keep you going, or you could get letters that would tear your heart out. And you know, who really did a great job with that is um Leon Eurist in Battle Cry, where you see one of the Marines and the six Marines um early in that book when they're on Guadalcanal, he gets a Dear John letter and he just punches out. And he ends up being the guy who stays behind uh during a counterattack, I think, and and ends up essentially sacrificing himself because he didn't want to live anymore. And it was all because of what happened at home. And over and over and over again, you see that as a theme as these guys uh cycle through combat and come home, cycle through combat and come home, and there's you know the growing disconnect between the families and and their warriors is devastating. So I you know it always kind of grinds me when I hear um speeches given during Memorial Day when they talk about the sacrifices that the soldiers have made and you know our warriors have made. It isn't it isn't just the ones who were killed in action. Everybody who comes home has sacrificed in some way, they've given a part of themselves. Um there's a book, I think it's on war, is what it's called. It talks about the soul lost moment. And you can see in 53 days where these kids who are, you know, uh just a months removed from dances and dance halls, stateside, you know, uh their fraternity parties at their colleges, all of a sudden they're dealing with really intense moments where their friends are being burned in the cockpits and uh other friends are being killed in bombing attacks or uh naval gunfire, and they're worried that the Japanese are gonna break through the raider battalion and and and uh split the uh entire perimeter in two, and they were right in the way of all of that. So they weren't sure if they were gonna be fighting tent-to-tent with their 45s that night in September of 1942. And so you you go through something like that, uh and it it transforms you, it changes you. And some guys stay on an even keel, like Mary Carl, and some guys like John L. Smith, who came to love his guys and and made a crucial personal error, but it was the right decision for his squadron. Uh to run the squadron with an iron fist, for sure. He was definitely a disciplinarian, but he ran it with an informality. That blended his relationship with the lower lower ranks, let's put it that way, to the point where he got to know these guys. And I think he realized early on that he could not treat these Marines the way Marines were usually treated, you know, with a real stratification of rank. They didn't have time to bond with that kind of structure in place. So, and although uh Dick Mangrum maintained that in 232 for sure, but in 223, they were very informal. They called each other by their uh squatter nicknames, they were uh very much friends among themselves. And uh John L, when they started dying, these these college kids turned Marines, tore his heart at heart out, and he never really recovered from that. And his story and what happens to him over the course of the next 20 years of his career is just heartbreaking. And the fact that he was a Medal of Honor recipient and he endured this without any of the of you know the the support and and help that is available today is just tragic to me. And it's emblematic of what happened to that generation, really.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I was uh yeah, thanks, Jeff. Yeah, I was uh I had famously for any of our uh listeners, uh I have some severe battles with the darkness that I called uh my dark passenger. And uh that was all from not combat. I didn't see any combat or anything, but I I was always uh level one trauma center emergency and uh gunshot stabbings here down in the San Antonio, so we got all the border crossing stuff and the human trafficking and torture and kidnapping and you know all kinds of stuff. And uh, you know, I'm alive today because I had those resources, and so anybody's story about coming home and especially the officer you're talking about, you know, that that hit me hard when I was out there on the ranch, and it just it kind of reminded me of that fictional character from Full Metal Jacket Animal, where they're talking about break glass in case of emergency, you know. Well, what do you do with that guy when you're done? And that's where the country failed uh these guys was they had saved us and and we failed them, you know. And I'm I'm so glad that you put their story in an epilogue and at the end of what happened, because that's also extremely relevant and important. And I think that that serves almost as a tempering uh gauge that we make sure it's a constant reminder that we just you always have to make sure that you're not falling back on the old ways we were doing things before, but we need to keep these guys safe and gals safe that are dealing with this stuff, and um all of our frontline people, including first responders, and um and uh you know, I have a bunch of friends that commit that killed themselves and took their own lives as well, that were, you know, uh ER docs and ER nurses and medics and uh firefighters uh friends. Um so you know it's it's a very important that I'm so glad that you touched on that. Um and I gotta say that my my journey on this story was very unique because I here's two recommendations I have for everybody about your your book, John. I think everybody needs to buy a copy, all right, and somehow to try and get it signed and then put it on a shelf. And then what they need to do is they need to come down to South Central Texas in August, and they need to go out in the woods and listen to it on audiobook, and they need to chainsaw all day in 95% humidity because my experience through these guys, I'm just sweating.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, even though the videos are still bad.
SPEAKER_05I got mosquitoes, I got flies, and I got stuff flying in my eyes, and and I'm just chainsawing through all this stuff and working, and there's fire ants and scorpions, and and you're talking about water canals got snakes and scorpions and fire ants, and I'm like, they're everywhere. Like MV DSD right there, like there, you know. And uh, but but what's really unique, Yon, and I and I want you to take this with you for the rest of your life, whenever you think about if your book matters. I had a really unique experience because at the various things that were happening, uh, for instance, the the Marine who sat in the cockpit and gunned down that Japanese guy that was trying to get to the aircraft and then just casually walks off. I I know exactly where I was at on the ranch that day when I I I was dumping, I had the ATV and I was dumping the the uh the the wood where it's gonna be burned, and I remember I that story came up, and I just I was sliding out of the seat and I looked up at the sky and there was a buzzard flying over it. I was like, I was like, Oh my god, this is this is this, and then uh there's an officer, uh a pilot who uh was a non-com before and then made it into being I know we all know his name, I don't want to ruin it for everybody. And um uh when he when he's gone, uh man, I had to I had to take a seat, I had to take a knee. That was powerful, yeah. That was powerful. And um thank you. I really uh I really appreciate you know and of course as a writer myself and I have so many questions about your your writings, you know, how you keep track of the characters, like and how do you I know how I do, but it you know, when you have all these guys and you gotta your continuity and your flow and your uh everything's gotta agree in time and place, and um I don't even know if we have time for that, Jeff, but you know.
SPEAKER_06I it's full immersion for me. Usually when I'm writing, I go up to a little cabin in the woods in the Cascades a few miles from a lake, into this cabin that I've probably written parts or all of the last 14 books. Um, and I will spend weeks and weeks up there with just the cat, my dog, and the guys. And I I live the story. For sure. And you know, one thing, you know, the definitely the darkness that engulfs some of these guys is a major theme of the book, uh, especially the aftermath. But uh, the reason why I started the book the way I did uh was because in that moment in New York when the guys are on the hero tour, the first heroes back from the Marine Corps. Um, this is after the Marines, uh the Marine Aviators uh were crushed at Pearl Harbor, they were crushed at Wake Island, they were crushed at Midway. Uh the the the Marine Aviation was 0-3 against the Japanese going into Guadalcanal, and the the Midway veterans that were were seated into the two squadrons were very, very dark and and bitter, and and uh their morale for the most part was not not good. But one of them, Marion Carl, was uh very even keeled kind of guy. Um and you see him at the beginning of the book have this moment with a woman he meets in New York City, and bam, he falls in love, and you find out later in the book that they have a whirlwind two-eek romance and they get married, right? And the point I wanted to make with that was something that you'll see as a theme through all my other books, and I know this is gonna sound kind of um I don't know, harlequiny. Um but the transformative uh aspect of combat can be mitigated with love. And over and over again, you see that within this book, within this book, which is the story of a father's love and uh for his for his kids and his wife in combat in race of aces. You see it with the relationship between the aces and their wives, uh especially Gerald Johnson and his wife Barbara. Um The Trident, which I wrote with Jay Redmond, was the story of uh how one you know Navy SEAL couple made it work when 95% of the SEALs get divorced. Uh so over and over and over again, I've tried to wrap these stories into something that tells a bigger human um aspect to all this, which is how uh how love can balance the darkness, for sure.
SPEAKER_05I was I'm so glad you said that. And I'm sure Jess's gonna be able to interject on that as well. But my uh better half, she would say, I don't know, well, I'm not this or I'm not that. And I just looked at her deep in her soul and I said, But do you know the peace that you bring to my heart? You can't buy that, you can't buy that at a jewelry store, you can't lose that enough weight for that, you can't purchase a dress for that. That is you, that is your heart, that's who you are, that's what I see, and the peace that you bring me, I will fight to the death for that.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah, for sure. That's amazing, and I'm so glad that you have that because um it's been my experience the the people who I know who served and came back and didn't have that or had chaos in that aspect of their life had a much harder time. For sure.
SPEAKER_03Well, John, while while we're on this topic, I think that that's a a good segue of you know everything that we've been talking about. I'd like to kind of, if I can, since we're getting near the end anyway, uh, I'd like to kind of I think it's appropriate to end the podcast the way that you end your books. And if you would, I I'd like you to, you know, please tell our audience about Taylor Marks and the impact that Taylor has had on your writing.
SPEAKER_06Uh so Taylor, okay. Uh I I was teaching ballroom dance in a uh in a high school class, uh PE class. I was teaching a ballroom dance section uh as a favor for a friend. And this was back in 2007, and Taylor Marks was one of my then wife's uh uh students, and he was in the class and he was all enthusiasm and energy, and he was willing to try new stuff, and he was he was always up for the moment. And a lot of the the the males in the class just they were they were too cool for school and they didn't want to try, and their girlfriends were all upset with them. Uh, but Taylor was all in, and I'm like, this is a kid, I'm gonna pull into my op for group. And I had uh after I wrote the Devil Sandbox, I created um one of the reasons why I ended up with ex-wife was I used the money that was put aside for a down payment on a hobby farm to fund this uh organization called the 973rd Civilians on the Battlefield. And basically we were bad guys for the Oregon National Guard infantry units. We later branched out, worked with Homeland Security, et cetera, et cetera. Um I pulled Taylor into the group and he turned out to be one of the best members of the group we ever had. And he became very, very close to me and my family. He watched the kids when we went on date night, and um ultimately he told me instead of going to college, he wanted to go join the Oregon National Guard and serve with the units that we were uh supporting. And I told him to go read house to house in the double sandbox and come back. And he did, and he still wanted to. I gave him my Coniac GTO to take his uh girl to prom along with his best friend, they double dated. And a year after the prom at the same venue, I gave his eulogy. And uh he had been killed in Iraq uh six weeks into his deployment uh by an Iranian EFP on a bridge in front of a um an Iraqi police unit that was working with the Shia militias. And uh as a result, I close almost every book that I've written uh with a paragraph or two about Taylor, and 53 Days was no exception. I drive that GTO across the country every time I do research for these books um because it I feel close to him. He's I can feel his presence in the car. And uh yeah, like we're talking 16 years later and the anniversary was just on the 28th, and you know, you never heal from those things, you just have to grow around the pain, and you can see how it affects me even now. But uh, you know, he was one of those kids who uh had enormous potential and it got cut short, and the country is less for it.
SPEAKER_07And we have a lot, a lot of people like that, especially from the greatest generation. So this is one of the other reasons why I do what I do. Thank you for letting me talk about Taylor.
SPEAKER_03Oh, of course, and I know I think Jeff said it earlier, but this book in particular, I I lost count by the number of times that it brought me to tears because it was that good. And every single time I get to the last chapters of your book and you talk about Taylor, it's that does it too. So you know, thank you for for making sure his name gets mentioned too.
SPEAKER_07Thank you, Zach.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I appreciate that. I do what I can. We uh we escorted his remains home and the GTO when he came into Salem Airport, and uh he was here in independence for a couple of like a night and a morning, I think, and then we escorted him up to Willamette National where he was laid to rest up in the Portland area. Uh so the GTO will be in the family um until I die.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Well, John, we uh as a living history uh reenactor as well as some of my other hobbies, uh we have a saying when we go to air shows or perform at different uh events uh around Texas. Um and it's really quite simple. It's just a simple uh line that I came up with years ago, and it's uh we do what we do because they did what they did. And we thank you for doing what you do because you do it so well. Um I this has been a fantastic episode. We we are so appreciative of your time, sharing your talents with us, and this is definitely not the last time uh that we'll be talking with you. Uh we will definitely be staying in touch. Of course, if you're ever in this area, I would love to shake your hand and uh and just spend an afternoon uh really just just getting to know you. And and I know the the other guys here um uh would feel the same. So so speaking of getting to know you, how can people reach out? How can they find you? Social media, all the things.
SPEAKER_06My website is the AmericanWarrior.com. Uh I'm I'm on Facebook as John R. Bruning, and you can find me on Instagram at John R. Bruning and also John R. Bruning on Twitter, which is XN, I guess. Um uh and then of course Sylvie has her own page on Instagram. She has more followers than I do, so I'm bitter about that. Uh but uh uh, you know, it's so funny because every time I put her in a photo with the books, uh, they get like four times the traffic, you know, and I'm running little ads on Instagram. So the cat more than earns her keep, and I know she's a pain when she jumps up here, but uh uh, you know, she's uh yeah, so she's at Sylvie the Canine Cat on Instagram.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. Well, we invite all of our WTSB listeners to go ahead and check you out. Dennis, you got one more final thought.
SPEAKER_05Yes, one more final thought. I I I just want to thank you for you know what you do um and you do well. And um I um while we were talking, I ordered the book, uh, the um this the uh the the sandbox. Oh, thank you. I ordered that, and then I and Jeff, I ordered the National Geographic. I found it on eBay. So that's coming as well. Um perfect. Thanks a lot, fellas.
SPEAKER_01And uh yeah, well, we invite all of our listeners, make sure you check us out at WTSP WWII.com. That's WTSPworldwar 2.com. Check out all of our latest merchandise, our episodes which will be coming out, and Zach, our amazing producer, is gonna make sure that you guys can find your way to John R. Bruining and his amazing books. The story of love, of loss, of sacrifice, of war, of the human experience, how men could save a country, but sometimes a country cannot save the men. Thank you again, Mr. Bruning, and we will see y'all next time.
SPEAKER_07Thank you, Chence.
SPEAKER_03Thanks, John. Really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_06Thank you, guys. This is a really special evening. I really appreciate you having me on.
SPEAKER_03Uh, and John, just so you know, and I and I swear I've been telling people this, that this book is so good. I've been telling people, I know this is a bold statement, but George R.R. Martin could drop the Winds of Winter tomorrow, and I would still say, shelf it, put it down and read this first. I mean that from a song and I see fire fan. Like, I would this is one of the best of all time.
SPEAKER_06Oh my gosh, thank you so much. I really appreciate that.
SPEAKER_05Do you ever make it down to San Antonio way? Because I know Jeff and I would definitely uh more Austin, anything like that.
SPEAKER_06I will be going through Austin probably this upcoming spring. So I will definitely let you guys know. But if you're ever in Oregon, um I now have a place. You know, when my wife and I split, uh I ended up in a uh little like mother-in-law's quarters 150 feet from the house to be close to the kids, so they never lost their sense of family. I still cooked for the family uh for eight years after I got back from Afghanistan. Um, but you know, I was basically living in a dorm room. And I finally just said, you know what, enough's enough. The kids are through college, it's time for me to live my own life. So I actually have a place where we can sit and have a beer and uh uh hang out in my hangar. Uh I have a taxi way behind me. I don't have an airplane, but maybe someday if I write another bestseller. Um yeah, and uh my office is in an old air defense command center from the Cold War, so I put a bar in it so we can sit and do shots in the control room that looks like the something straight out of war games or Doctor's Train Club. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_03And uh do it do us a favor, John. Tell uh tell your daughter Renee we all said hi because uh I know she helps with your with your research. And I wish I we could have talked about that too, but uh, you know, we'll talk about that next time.
SPEAKER_06Sounds good. Yeah, she has gone full mad scientist and is a laboratory medical scientist now. Oh wow, good for her. Yeah, yeah, I get to hear all about diseases and plagues and dinner conversations are lit, I'll tell you.
SPEAKER_05I am super stoked about your book you mentioned, the Philippines, the gorillas, and uh too. Wow.
SPEAKER_06Uh it's like the there's cannibalism, there's mass executions, there's uh U.S. Army officer going insane and another one saving the day. I mean, it's just a crazy story.
SPEAKER_05That sounds amazing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and Dennis, speaking of crazy stories, I know I touched on Indestructible, but if you like Philippines, like prior to us coming back there, like post Pearl Harbor attack, Indestructible's about the guy that he, you know, his family gets left behind in the Philippines, and he's got his crazy pilot has got to go try to save him and makes more. Multiple attempts and it's uh it's incredible. Like I didn't know Cappy Gun was real. I can't believe that we don't know his name. Like it like the that's not like a a household name. You know what I mean? He did so much and it's such a crazy story. So that's that's definitely worth checking out too.
SPEAKER_05Awesome. Thank you.
SPEAKER_06Thank you very much. Thank you for everything, and thank you for your services. Um wow, just listening to your own stories. I I really want to just sit down over a beer with you guys and talk for sure. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01We'll make it happen, sir. We'll make it happen for you. We gotta get a bunch of reach out through social, through Instagram. I'm an Instagram guy. I'll I'll reach out to you for sure, sir. And yeah, we uh we look forward to having you back on. A lot of our guests, uh especially authors, you know, there's always uh there's always a spot to come on and and promote a new book or talk about an old one. Uh so anytime, please, you know, feel free to reach out. Love to have you back on because this story, this is not over. This is not over. This is not the end.
SPEAKER_02Oh, not by a long shot. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06It would be a great honor to come back. This has been a digital four tin production.