Judith Avila & Latham Nez on the Navajo Code Talkers

Podcast Episode 216

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Digital Fortin Media proudly presents the What's the Scuttlebutt Podcast with your hosts, Don Abernathy, Jeff Copsetta, and Dennis Blocker.

SPEAKER_05 0:16

Welcome everybody to another episode of the What's the Scuttlebutt Podcast. Your favorite World War II based podcast. Joining us tonight is Jeff is back. Jeff, how are you doing? That mustache is coming on strong, sir. Looking good. I think you said a lot of it.

SPEAKER_03 0:34

Yeah, I shaved it off over the summer. It didn't take long to come back, though. It's been really growing on me, I'll take it. Uh boy, I'm excited about tonight, man. This is a really this is a long overdue topic for the show. I've been doing this a long time with you, Don, and I'm pumped about the topic and our guest tonight.

SPEAKER_05 0:51

You know, I really I feel bad. I need to go back and look because we get a lot of messages. The the topic of this episode came to us from Facebook. Somebody said, hey, um, you guys have done a lot of stuff on the Pacific. You've mentioned, you know, code talkers and passing, you know, brief little sentences here and there when it relates to movies or other things, but how about do an entire episode on it? Um, so here we are. Um, a little inside baseball. Zach's the only one who knows. This is episode one. We're actually going to have another guest on in probably two weeks. So we're actually we're gonna make up for lost time by providing you guys with an inordinate amount of code talker content. And so we're thrilled for our first guest tonight. We're thrilled to have Jeff and um our new producer who's been producing great stuff, Zach Morris. Zach, how are you doing tonight, sir?

SPEAKER_02 1:35

Doing very well, thanks, Don. Really excited for our guests too tonight.

SPEAKER_05 1:38

Well, without any further ado, why don't you go ahead and introduce our guest tonight?

SPEAKER_02 1:42

Absolutely. So, our next guest uh is the co-author of, in my opinion, one of the best World War II books that's ever been written. It's called Code Talker, the first and only memoir by one of the original Navajo Code Talkers of World War II. She was a Navajo Code Talker scholar with the New Mexico Endowment for the Humanities Chautauquin program. She tours the state giving presentations on the topic. And as of 2011, when Code Talker was published, she had conducted over 80 hours of interviews with Chester Nez and his son Michael Nez. So it is my great pleasure in introducing Judith Abila. Thank you for joining us, Judith. We're really excited to have you.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

Thank you, Zach. I'm happy to be here. Can I offer a correction at this point?

SPEAKER_03 2:34

Please do.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Yeah, I I did over 80 hours, but really the interviews were for three years, like we just talked about. So I think that's much more important than saying 80 hours. That doesn't sound like a whole lot.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

Agreed. Agreed. For most people who don't do interviews, that is a ton of hours put in over a course of time. So very impressive.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Oh, thanks. That was the only group of interviews that I've ever done.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

There's so many questions that I hope we're able to get to about the whole story of the Navajo Code Talkers, Chester Nas. But can you talk about how you originally got involved? Like what is your connection to the Navajo Code Talkers?

SPEAKER_01 3:19

Well, really, um I've always been interested in Native American history because my four siblings and I are a little bit Native American, maybe 30%. Now I feel almost like a fraud claiming Native American heritage because I did not grow up on the reservation. I don't know how a Native American deals with everyday problems like no electricity, no water, no internet. Um but we've all I was always interested. And when I watched Cowboys and Indian shows, I always rooted for the Indians. They never won. But when I moved out to New Mexico, I grew up in New York and New Hampshire. When I moved out to New Mexico, I had this wealth of people surrounding me who knew about Native Americans and who were Native Americans. We have a great Native American presence here. And I belonged to a big writer's group because I was just starting out writing, and someone in the group met Chester and sent out a blanket email. I met this fascinating guy. He was a World War II code talker. Do you want to meet him and maybe write about him? Well, I didn't get that email, but one of my friends knew this guy and got the email and forwarded it to me. So I will be forever grateful to her. Um it changed my life. I immediately contacted Chester's son. Chester was very hard of hearing and didn't use the phone. And um we started interviewing. We met at where was it? Oh, Applebee's and sat around for hours talking. And the three of us realized there was really nothing written about the code talkers to speak of. And we also realized that if we didn't tell this story, it was gonna be lost. Chester was one of five of the original Navajo Code Talkers still alive when I met him. And those guys have a very different story from the code talkers who follow because they actually designed the code, they actually convinced the Marines it would work. They were quite a group and they were so enthusiastic about helping their country, as I believe all the code talkers were. Easy to talk to, remembered everything, everything.

SPEAKER_05 6:47

You were saying that Chester was part of the original five who helped create the code, but from what I understand, that was a task in and of itself because how the Native Americans were treated in the early years by the American government, there was no written document documented version of their language in general. The original Navajo language was not a written document format. And so to go into the Marine Corps and try to write write up code, which obviously everything in the military is documented. First, they got to come figure out a way to come up with a representation of Native American, I mean of the Navajo word language words, and then come up with a code idea, correct?

SPEAKER_01 7:22

Exactly, Don. Actually, if I said that there were just five who designed the code, I misspoke. He was one of five still living when I met him. Of the 29 who designed the code, and then the Marines pulled in three more. So 32 men actually designed the code. And Chester was one of five still alive when I met him. And yes, that's what made um Navajo such a wonderful choice for a code because no one could buy a book and learn Navajo. I mean, oh my God. Chester has taught me Navajo words over and over and over, and it is so complex. The words are so hard to pronounce. And actually, when someone asks you if you speak Navajo, they don't say the word speak. They ask you, can you hear Navajo? And you know what? If you're not raised with it in the first three years of your life, you do not hear a lot of the sounds that are important in Navajo. So, right off the bat, they had a really obscure language, but then of course, they did design a complex code using that language.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

So, Judy, I want to touch on something that you said, which is really interesting because you're right, they picked the perfect language and it's so complex, and it, from what I understand, it doesn't have a written form, so you really have to learn it. It's like a word-of-mouth language. And these guys that made it up, these 32, the they you you mentioned they were so enthusiastic about their service. But what makes that, in my opinion, so incredible after reading the book is because despite how they were raised, they were basically these young Native American children in New Mexico when they would go to school. For the audience who doesn't know the history, they were basically beaten and abused for using their language. They're not if they were caught using the Navajo language, they were forced to speak English. So as they get older and the Marines approach them for using their language, they're they're so enthusiastic about it despite you know their upbringing. Like, can you speak to that, like that stroke? Like, how were they so enthusiastic about this despite everything, you know?

SPEAKER_01 9:44

Oh, Zach, yeah, that's a good question. First of all, the Navajo language was considered a holy language, so there was a little reluctance there as to whether or not their holy language should be used in war. But then they talked among themselves and they decided that okay, this is to help our country. We were raised here, the people we love live here, the land we love and we grew up on is here. We're going to protect it. So, yes, even though they had been beaten for speaking Navajo at the boarding schools, almost all of the original 30 volunteers, one of whom kind of disappeared and never showed up for service. But they all I think they all went to boarding schools except maybe one or two of them. So you're right, they were punished. But when they were all working together and told this was their assignment, at first they kind of laughed and said, You're kidding, right? The government wants us to use NAVO now. And then they realized, oh, this is a great idea because our language is so complex and it's not written. It is written today, but back then it was not.

SPEAKER_05 11:18

Um, for our audience who want a glimpse into some of the tragedies that happened at some of these boarding schools, um, if you guys go and watch Yellowstone 1883, the first three or four episodes depicts that and what to their female character who was Native American and how her and her siblings were basically kidnapped from their reservation and forced to go to one of the schools. Obviously, it's it's been Hollywood dramatized, but it's it's not uh softened in any way. So if you want an idea a glimpse into some of the horrible treatment, um you can get a glimpse of that by um watching uh Yellowstones 1881. Um from what I understand, too, a lot of these gentlemen, they kind of they came to terms with, well, I'm not fighting for the country, I'm fighting for my land. Because my land sits within the borders of this country, and if anything happens to the borders of this country, it's gonna happen to our land. And we've already lost our lands once, so we're gonna fight for what lands we have left. And let's be honest, too. I mean, here's a culture that takes great pride in a warrior class, right? And now they have a reason to fight for their land and to fight for their families. Yes, cause good point.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

And the warriors were both men and women, although when the Marines recruited the men, they were recruiting the men, not women.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

And I also want to kind of touch a little bit on that too, because it's it's I think something that's even more even fighting for their land, it's it's almost like the the way that I understood in the book, too. It's almost like more than that, it's you're fighting for your way of life, also. Like this is our way. And as going through it, something that that Chester would repeatedly kind of touch on is referring to it as the right way. The way. The way of life. And it almost kind of reminds me, like, I'm don't mean to sound silly, but it in a way, it reminds me of that way of the warrior that you see in that Star Wars show, The Mandalorian, where it's this is the way, like this is the right way. It's a set of principles, it's like a a code of integrity, but it's your way of life, how you how you see the world and everyone around you. And one of my favorite quotes from the book was, like other Navajos, I knew that beauty could be found anywhere if you concentrated on living the right way.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Exactly. Love that quote. And knowing that thinking that way has totally changed my approach to life. Every day I look out and I thank the creator for the beauty I'm looking at. And what a difference that makes in your life. And when every person or every animal you meet, you look at them and think, you're beautiful. Each person has their own beauty, it totally changes the way you interact. I just think Native peoples have a lot to teach us.

SPEAKER_05 14:21

Yeah, and I was just thinking that, and I think Jeff could probably attest to this because you know, in in his area of Texas, he he has some land that he he uh works and is outside quite a bit, and sadly Dennis is Dennis does too, who's not with us tonight. But um, one of the things I discovered 12, 13 years ago as a living historian, whenever I'd gotten to events, I would sleep on the ground underneath the tent. And even though you're sleeping on the hard ground, there's you instantly wake up at 6 o'clock in the morning. But being outside, whether it's at a living history event or now I'm a kayak fisherman, I think our society worldwide could get a great healing if people spent more time outside. Just being outside, working outside, spending just being away from technology, getting out into the heat, the cold, whatever it is. There's so much, it's it's crazy how your body reacts to just being outside.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

You're right. Absolutely. I find that too. And when I'm writing a story or a book, because I've written seven novels that I haven't published any of them. I need to do that, but I like to write, I don't like the business end. Um, but when I get to the last 10%, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_05 15:36

What's the last 10% of any project? That's the hard but yeah, you're saying when you write your books, you go on hikes to kind of clear your mind?

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Yes. And I hike every morning, weekdays with my neighbor. One day her dogs, the next day, my dogs. So that also starts my day out right because I can focus, I see all the beauty around me. I live in the mountains, my house is at 7,000 feet, which is not low.

SPEAKER_05 16:10

Um, I think my house is at four. I'm in Florida. There's a canal right across the room. I'm like four feet sea level.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

Yeah, well, it's a real adjustment for me because I grew up on the East Coast, yeah. But I love it, and I find the air out here is so crisp and cool and clear. I mean, you just want to plant your heart out here. It's such a great place.

SPEAKER_05 16:40

Jeff, you have a question?

SPEAKER_03 16:42

I do. Well, uh, first of all, Judy, I just want to say howdy neighbor, because yeah, I think geographically I'm closer to you right now in Texas than the other two guys are.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

Where in Texas are you, Jeff?

SPEAKER_03 16:53

Right in the middle, Central Texas, uh Burnett County, kind of Lakes and Hills area. Uh and I will be coming to New Mexico for an event in October. We'll talk about that later on in the show. But what I'd like to do, just indulge me for a second here, because I'm just thinking from our listeners' perspective, we may have listeners out there uh that may not be familiar with exactly what the Code Talkers did and their significance in World War II. So could you maybe just give just a brief kind of an overview of what was that that they did and why was it so important to really shed some light on uh why Chester was so significant and why your uh your book is so important in the legacy of the greatest generation?

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Sure, Jeff. That is, you're right, very important. Well, when the Code Talkers finished basic training with the Marines, they learned what their secret assignment was. They knew there was a secret assignment, but they couldn't know it until what it was, until everyone passed basic training. And they passed with flying colors because they were all in such great shape from herding sheep and walking, and you know, they did very well, and all their um drill sergeants bragged about them all the time. So they finally passed basic and they were taken aside into a classroom with bars on the windows, and a Marine stood at the front of the room and said, Men, I'm gonna tell you what your secret assignment is. Well, they all looked at each other and they were all really, really nervous, hoping it wouldn't be something where their death was certain. And he said, Boys, or maybe he said men, I hope he said men. We have been having a terrible time in the Pacific. The Japanese are kicking our butts, and are they doing that because they're better fighters than the Marines? The US Marines? Uh-uh. No, no way. They are kicking our butts because they intercept every one of our communications, and then they're able to decipher them. Latham just got home, so okay. Um he said, what we need from you guys is a code, a code that not even another Navajo could break, and you're going to use Navajo for that code, and that's exactly what happened. The Navajo Navajo code never ever got broken. It was the only unbroken spoken code in modern warfare, and it was kept secret after World War II for about 23 years because the Marines thought they'd be using it again. But then after 23 years, when we had computers and generated codes and they decided it could be let go, and that's when the men were finally allowed to talk about it, and when the public was allowed to learn about it in 1968. So the code they designed changed the course of the war because when you're fighting on islands, which the Marines were in the Pacific War, that's where all the code talkers fought. You have to be able to communicate. You can't. You have to be able to communicate. And boy, those code talkers took it seriously. And after the original code designed by the first 32 men, um, 400 more were brought in to train and learn the code. And they added to the code too. They came up with good ideas and it was constantly enhanced.

SPEAKER_05 21:21

Was 400 kind of the cap or was 400 kind of the limit of available men from the Navajo ancestry who knew the language?

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Oh no, there were many more than 400, but 400 was the number that the Marines decided to recruit. I think there were about 420 code talkers altogether. And I do believe, although this isn't really verified, toward the end of the war, there were a couple that of code talkers who were trained, but then ended up not getting to really do much in the war because. The war was winding down. But the army borrowed the code talkers from the Marines. I mean, everyone wanted code talkers.

SPEAKER_05 22:11

Yeah, that was another question I had that I thought maybe was unanswerable because obviously at the time they didn't know the European war would end prior to the war in the Pacific, but I was kind of wondering if there was any plan or anticipation of using the code talkers in the European theater at the time before the war's end.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

Yeah, I don't know of any plan like that, Don. And Chester didn't know of any plan like that either. Although there were instances of Native men who joined up during World War II in very large numbers. I think there were 44,000 of them. There were instances of Native men who use their language just to send messages, not necessarily a code, but the language acted as a code because nobody else knew it.

SPEAKER_06 23:06

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Yeah. But the NAO code talkers were organized, developed. I mean, that was a real project and the only project in the war of that type.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

So Judy, why I'm sorry, Don. So while we're on this topic before we jump around, one of the things that our audience might not understand about this code is how did they do it? Well, what they would do is from what I understood in the book, the basics of it was they would they would make first first step was making kind of like a phonetic alphabet where A is in Apple, B is in Boy, C is in Charlie. They would come up with Navajo words that were, you know, A for Apple, for example, Apple in Navajo. And then they would do it all along the lines, and they were so brilliant the way they did it. They would even pick words like J is in Jackass, things like that. So it was almost like double encrypted, where only they knew and only they, you know, were able to apply things that were it was like, it's not A in Navajo, it's A in English, but we're using a Navajo word. So it was very, very advanced. And what made it so advanced and so incredible is you did touch on this in your book too, uh, in the Peleliu chapter, is it was an unbreakable code that even other Navajos could not break. There was evidence that Navajos that were captured or that overheard radio and they didn't understand what they were hearing. Even though they, you're right, they could hear Navajo, they didn't know what they were hearing. So that was just so brilliant the way that they did that.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Yeah, they knew the words they were hearing, but they didn't make any sense. I mean, the way they were strung together made no sense at all. And they also used Navajo words for things they'd have to say a lot, like um fighter plane that become became hummingbird, so they wouldn't have to spell it out. And it was always an animal or a thing that made sense. And you know, anyone who's ever had a hummingbird feeder, holy mackerel, a pissed-off hummingbird is a good little fighter play. So everything they used made sense.

SPEAKER_03 25:16

Yeah, I think looking back now, I I've looked at some of the code because I covered this in my dual credit U.S. history classes and the significance of them just very briefly. And I if I remember some of the other ones, there was uh an owl was like a reconnaissance or a spotter aircraft, um you know, the large eyes. Uh the Navajo uh word for turtle was a uh was a tank. Because of course there was no word for tank, right? So yeah, just absolutely clever. And it's just I've been smiling the whole time you were talking because it's just uh yet another example of how this entire country from coast to coast came together to defeat two superpowers simultaneously in such a short amount of time. It really truly another example and another reminder that it just simply took everybody to win this war.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

You're right, Jeff. You're right. And Don knows um, because he's read the book, the entire code is in the back of the book with a couple corrections Chester made because he remembered it all. And he said, Oh God, the Navy got that wrong when they released that. Navy was in charge of it because Marines are Navy. So we fixed him. He was such a kick. I was laughing all the time. And another example of the way the country came together and it became a personal thing for Chester. Anytime someone asked him about his life, he'd say, My life was 100%. And he said to me several times, if I hadn't been a toad talker, if I hadn't done my duty for my country, my life maybe would have been 40, 50 percent, but I did my duty. I did what my country needed, and my life was 100%.

SPEAKER_05 27:23

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SPEAKER_01 29:44

You hit that nail on the head. They were amazed in San Diego when they went for training. Everything was light, even at night. I mean, they just couldn't quite fathom everything they were seeing. It was a whole new life.

SPEAKER_05 30:03

Could you imagine them seeing going seeing the big bridge for the first time? And we we hear people talk all the time like that's big. The the idea that you know that was done. I it's just it's gotta be amazing. It just had to be amazing. Just everything.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

Yeah, it was impressive, and it gave them a whole new perspective, and it also they did so well as code talkers, and they were so well respected by their fellow Marines, they all had each other's back. Everybody wanted a code talker in their team that they really thought they'd get out of the war and they'd get a job and have a family, and everything would be fine. Unfortunately, it didn't turn out that way. Uh, no one knew what they had done in the war, and they weren't allowed to tell. And when they looked for jobs at home, they were just thought of as lazy Indians, and their lives were not what they thought they would be. Chester was very lucky that he found a job quite soon, and he stuck with it his whole career. He did great in his job, but many of his co-talker friends did not, and they ended up dying young through alcoholism, starvation, suicide. I mean, it was a horrible thing that our country would allow that to happen. I I mean, I'm not trying to politicize, but I feel anyone in our country who risks their life to fight for the country should never be homeless, should never need medical treatment that they can't get, and should never be hungry. And I don't care whether people are a Republican or Democrat, that should never happen.

SPEAKER_05 32:14

To that point, we know amongst military across the board back then, a lot of the guys were sending their money home because they just came out of the Great Depression, you know, the economy's finally boosting, but there are a lot of the guys clearly. I'm sure the co-talkers were doing that as well. Was there a we also know that, you know, the military at the time were changing their segregation laws. Was there a discrepancy in their pay compared to the average Marine, or were they paid on the same balanced scale as everybody else?

SPEAKER_01 32:40

I do believe they were paid the same as everyone else. They went through the same training. They were written about like they were gods in the San Diego Chevron, which was the Marine newspaper, to the point where it was embarrassing for them because Navajo kids are taught to be modest. I mean, they called them magnificent examples of early American manhood and things like that, that they didn't even know what to do with that. But they were respected and treated well by the Marines. And Chester always gave the Marines credit for that. He said nobody was prejudiced against us. Now, I don't know if some of the other code talkers may have run into problems, but those original guys, people were practically going, thank you, thank you to them.

SPEAKER_05 33:39

I'm a number here that I'm kind of I'm happy about, but I'm also kind of surprised. So, as you're saying earlier, there's 4420 kind of served in the war. Now, I don't mean as only, but I'm seeing only 13 killed in action.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

That is a tremendously low number, you would think compared to how much they had bodyguards, and Chester said to me, you know, I had marine buddies, they went everywhere with me, even if I had to take a leak, they were there. And he said, At first, I thought they were just buddies, but after a couple years of this constant watching me, I realized they were protecting me. And of course, in that Nicolas Cage movie, Wind Talkers, about how the Marines told the Code Talker bodyguards that they should shoot the code talker if the code talker was going to be taken by the Japanese because the code was too crucial. Um, and then in the movie, one of the code talkers did get shot by Nicholas Cage, I think. Anyway, um that never really happened. That was Hollywood.

SPEAKER_05 34:56

Hollywood, I had a feeling, but I wanted to I wanted to bring that up for clarity's sake.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Yeah, but Chester does believe that the Marines may have told the bodyguards for the Kotock or other Marines that they should shoot them if they were going to be captured. And he said a lot of guys were really angry about that after we got out of service. And he said the Marines would neither confirm nor deny it. So I figured they'd deny it if it was wasn't true. If they don't say anything, it probably was. But he said, you know, I've thought about it a lot, and it doesn't make me mad. And I said, Well, why not? And he said, you know, I'd rather be shot by one of my buddies than tortured to death by the Japanese. He said it made sense.

SPEAKER_02 35:58

Yeah, you did touch on that in the book, G. I remember you did say that, like, even though they may have been given those instructions, to the best of your knowledge, nobody ever actually did get shot by their own by another Marine.

SPEAKER_01 36:09

Never happened, thank goodness.

SPEAKER_02 36:11

And you you said something I just want to go back to, just real quick. You use the word magnificent to describe what these guys did. And if anything, I agree with you because the Navajos in World War II and what they did, their contribution, it kind of just is a perfect example of why, yes, especially in this country, diversity is what makes us so great because of all these languages we could bring to the table when we really need them, unencrypted languages, like it's it's so brilliant what they did. But you also mentioned how risky that was because back then in World War II, for our audience who don't know, one of the things that made these code talkers' jobs so risky was because the way the Japanese could triangulate radio signals. So if let's say a ja uh a uh a Navajo code talker was using the radio to call something in using Navajo, they'd immediately after the sending the transmission have to get up and move because the Japanese could triangulate. So the clock is ticking as soon as they sent one of those Navajo messages because they would leave, and then that position would be bombarded with artillery. So it was just time was of the essence, and it was so risky what they were doing.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

You read that very carefully, Zach. You're right. Exactly. They'd move right after the transmission is over, and oftentimes they'd see the artillery hit the spot where they just ran from.

SPEAKER_05 37:30

And that in and of itself is amazing to think that 80-ish, 81 years ago, that the Japanese technology on triangulating a signal coming off of a walkie-talkie was that good that they would actually pinpoint down to where the stone was where these gentlemen were sitting and hit it with a mortar or artillery piece. You know, we oftentimes forget, you know, it was long ago and comparative now that their technology is so rudimentary, but the fact that, you know, 30 seconds later, a minute and a half later, they got that triangulated, and you better scoot and get moving with all that heavy gear, or you know, it's going to be more than 13 that we're lost.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

Exactly. And the Japanese were very technically adept. They were a smart enemy. You know, there was no, there were no flies on the Japanese. They were a worthy foe, and um they did everything they could, but they never cracked that code.

SPEAKER_05 38:32

Well, I was gonna say to prove your point, the fact that we necessitated the need for a Navajo code because they were so good at cracking all of our previous codes goes to show you that the propaganda of the time about the Japanese soldier was in and of itself false because they were smart, they were you know technologically advanced, henceforth, us needing to create this new code.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

Exactly. You guys got it. Do you want me to get Latham? Do you have any questions for him? Chester's grandson. If he's available and yeah, he got home um maybe I don't know, 10-15 minutes ago.

SPEAKER_05 39:10

Yeah, we have we have time.

SPEAKER_01 39:12

Okay, let me just call him, okay? Hey Latham, Chester's grandson.

SPEAKER_04 39:19

You're pretty much very proud of my grandfather, very much so. I enjoy traveling with Judy and doing all the book things with her. It's been it's been a blessing, really has. Um that's great. Told you about his background and everything, but um, I was lucky enough towards the end of his life to be his caretaker. Uh so he had lost his legs due to uh diabetes, so he needed um somebody to travel with him. So I was the honorable one to be able to do that, the lucky one, should I say, to be able to do that. So uh wow. My my big thing was um I really enjoyed seeing him get his recognition finally after all these years um of him you know having to keep the silence, that uh he finally got the proper recognition that he deserved it. Sad that him, him and just a few others were able to receive the award, not the rest of the group, but the congressional yeah, the the medal of honor or congressional medal. Um but like I said, that was the highlight of my whole experience with him, other than you know what he did, of course.

SPEAKER_05 40:29

That had to be surreal to be him, to go from growing up forced to go to these schools, turn your back on your heritage, don't use your language, the government's kind of against your people. To now we're needing you in the military, come up with this code to let's forget about it, it never happened. Ward's mom to finally, in his later years, get rewarded and then be appreciated and asked to come out and speak and to write books. I mean, you want to talk about full spectrum. He lived it.

SPEAKER_04 40:58

Yes, he did, he did, and that that was one of my biggest pet peeves, I guess, when when I was younger in high school, when I found out, you know, what my grandfather had did and you know the the whole story of the Code Talkers because it was very obscure. We didn't learn too much about it in high school. I remember when I was in high school, um, there's very little written about in Native Americans in anything in history, you know, and I I noticed that. So when my grandfather came out with his story, you know, he um his whole focus was to get the story out and and to share it with as many people as possible. And the irony of that whole story was, like you said, he was recruited from the same schools that were designed to take away his language and heritage. You know, that that really angered me. And I asked my grandfather, I said, Well, why did you fight for a country that did that to you? You know, I mean, I was you know, I was in high school and I didn't really understand too much, but he he real simple and humbly just told me he he didn't want it to happen again. You know, if communism would have taken over, we would have been forced to live a different way, speak a different way, just as he had gone through, you know, with the boarding schools. Um that made sense to me, you know. So that turned my anger into curiosity and I wanted to find out more about my grandfather. And um that's when the the take the caretaking came in and I got that privilege of of learning his whole story and um traveling with Judy and him um countless places. Uh we were traveling to a different venue every week to flying to a different uh state, a different university. Um, red carpets, walkways lined with flags. I mean, he they always went all out for him. And it was really a blessing to see him finally get that recognition. And um the book now today is is still going strong because it's being added to curriculums across the nation, which we're very proud of. And that was always our major goal with my grandfather while we were traveling was to hit as many schools and uh children and and as is possible, you know. So when we were traveling, that's what we were doing was going to as many of those schools as possible. And uh it paid off because now when I go to the art shows, because I'm a I'm an artist and I do art shows on the side, um I'll have little kids come up to the table and they'll be so excited when they see my grandfather's book on the table, they say, We just read about Chester in school, you know, and they'll they'll call by name Chester Nez and everything like that, you know, just total strangers, young kids. That really gets me. That really makes me smile as much as I miss my grandfather. I know that's because of what we did, you know, getting the story out there. And still, after he died, me and Judy um continued with it. So yeah, very proud. Very proud. Any other questions you guys have?

SPEAKER_05 43:50

Well, that kind of answered to my next question, which was that process was that healing for you to go from the you know, not understanding high school or probably young adult. Adult to now you're touring with the grandfather and seeing him getting that appreciation. I think you just kind of answered that question that it clearly had an effect on you as well.

SPEAKER_04 44:07

Yes, it did. It did. You know, me and my grandfather, it I I think about it too, because um, you know, a lot of a lot of Native Americans are struggling, you know, um, a lot of veterans struggling with alcoholism and and you know, just traumas, you know, of society, you know, um a lot of uh Anglos just really don't understand that dynamic of what it's like to be Native American or black, you know, and have to go through life, you know, experiencing all that that comes with that, that comes with that, you know. We're not um how should I say um appreciated as much. Um so that that was always hard for me growing up. And what my grandfather did for me though was he he turned that around, you know, he he he made me realize that we were an important part of this society. And you know, I found out that you know Native Americans are the highest enlisted per capita per you know uh ethnic groups, you know, we're the highest enlisted, you know, and that makes sense. All my uncles, all my my relatives, the majority of them are in the service, you know. Um so that makes sense, you know. It it's and I see it too as a lot of uh as an avenue out. And that's what my grandfather had hoped by joining, also, was that he would get accepted by the society and have a way in. Um sadly, that group didn't, they had to swear the secrecy and forced to go home without any fanfare or any kind of recognition. So that was really traumatizing to that group. I know a lot of them didn't make it because of um the fact that they didn't know anything about PTST, you know, and that group my grandfather served with um never got a break in R, never got R. Three and a half years straight. Uh sorry, first Marine Division, all the way to the third, right before he was about to go to uh Hiroshima and jump on the carrier. That's when he finally earned enough points and they had to send him out. Um so you know that that there too is uh something to think about that uh that we talked about a lot when we were traveling is is um you know how they were treated after the fact, what they did, you know. And that was sad. You know, the reality of how we treat our veterans today is still the same in the same manner. Um they're not getting a lot of my relatives are struggling with the PTSD and they can't get proper help from the VA hospitals here. Um so it's still a problem, you know. Um but you know, the the the pride that my grandfather had, I can understand that. You know, he fought for something that he believed in, and I'm all for that. You know, I I I love America, you know, I don't I don't love politics, I hate that side of it, and I hate when people turn against each other when we should be helping each other. I'm glad my grandfather's not here to see this, what's going on today. But um, yeah, I'm very, very proud of him. The whole family is.

SPEAKER_05 47:14

I think a lot of us, regardless of our uh genetic backgrounds, can say the same thing about our grandparents. We're glad they're not here to see what's going on today. It's it's crazy.

SPEAKER_04 47:23

Yeah, it really is. I I'm having a hard time with it myself, really. I I have to turn off the TV sometimes and just uh go ahead, Jeff.

SPEAKER_03 47:36

So well, yeah, I I don't exactly have a question, but maybe something that might make you smile. I'm a uh I'm a history teacher here in Texas, and uh uh one of the things I do during World War II week is I I try to bring in, I'm of course a living historian and I have a trickling display of artifacts I have, so I'll bring a few tables worth of artifacts, set them up in the classroom to try to talk a little bit about rationing in World War II and women's service in World War II and the Rosie derivatives, and of course I do a segment about the code talkers, and I'll have students at the end of the presentation will dress up in different things, and there's always a student that wants to be a code talker, so he's got a Marine Corps helmet and a dungaree top and a World War II handy talkie. That is um yeah, so um I want to ask you this though, and and I wanted to ask Judy too. I hope she's standing right there.

SPEAKER_04 48:28

She is she's right here.

SPEAKER_03 48:29

So this is actually a question that I just uh was asked a few days ago. I was set up with my display at a youth church camp. It was a military-themed um summer camp, and I was going through all the things in my traveling display, and then one guy said, geez, he said, I just didn't really know so much about this. And he said, It's so important. You know, World War II is so important in our history. And I said, Absolutely. It's probably one of the most important events in the entire history of the human race. Uh, and it goes beyond the country. It's a it's a global event. And he said, Well, what is your advice going forward? How do we how do we remember all of this? How do we teach you know the young people about it so it's not forgotten? And um, you know, of course, myself, I I shamelessly handed him a business card and I said, Well, first you can start by listening to What's the Scuttle But podcast? Perfect. But uh so I'm asking both of you, obviously having such uh you know an intimate connection with such an important piece of that history, what do we do? How do we continue this legacy uh with what your grandfather did and what so many others did? Um, because as a and I may not have even mentioned this to Judy, uh, as a combat veteran myself, uh I know Chester was I'm sure felt the same way. It's never about what you did. Uh it's always about the guys that we lost doing it, right? It was the cosmic coin toss. Uh I had just as great a chance as getting killed as the guys that were killed over there. And I live with that every day, just like your grandfather did. So it's never about the individual. It's the duty of that individual coming home to make sure the others are not forgotten. So my question to both of you is how do we go about this besides reading the book? Uh besides talking about this in podcasts, how do we, in your opinion, how do we make sure that when you're gone, uh we know the name Chesternes?

SPEAKER_04 50:35

That's a good question. Um, you know, that that what that's been our whole goals from from the beginning, you know, like I said, starting with the schools and and spreading, you know, his story. Um, you know, because it it it does embody all of that, you know, of what's going on today, even you know, so much of the politics about brown people, and you know, they're all criminals and they're you know, they're worthless, and you know, we're better off without them, is the same thing they did with the Native Americans, you know, as far as the yellow journalism that went on back then, you know, calling us savages, heathens, and we were bloodthirsty, and you know, that that was completely false.

SPEAKER_01 51:16

You never drawn any drug.

SPEAKER_04 51:18

Exactly what they're doing to the Mexicans now, you know, and it's just an old tactic, you know, like they say, history repeats itself. And that's what I see, you know. And as far as combating that, uh, that's a tough question because you know, it starts with education. I mean, uh like I said, I'm that's why I'm so proud now that the schools are adding this book to their curriculum, you know, because it does give a chance for like teachers like you. That's our biggest um responses I get from from a lot of people is that there are teachers out there that that incorporate this uh the the book in their in their in their um curriculum. And Judy's always doing uh interviews with students and I I get involved too with that also, but she's always the one that gets contacted. But um that I think that's the main thing is just getting that information out there to the younger generation that doesn't know anything about it, you know.

SPEAKER_05 52:17

Well, that being said, let me ask Judy a question. Judy, have you considered maybe taking some of the context of your book and putting it in a um uh format that may be more palatable for a younger audience, such as you know, a fourth or fifth grade or you know, a sixth grade audience?

SPEAKER_01 52:34

Well, um actually uh I I know that many nine-year-olds up have read the book. I have I met one lady not too long ago. She said, My son is nine, he's read it three times already. But we have thought about doing a graphic presentation of the book. And Latham's a good artist, and I've done some work on thinking about how we could put it together, and our publisher, Penguin, is quite open to the idea, but our lives are so busy right now, we haven't gotten too far with it.

SPEAKER_05 53:17

Once again, that's another one of those questions that just came to me. But on that bookshelf behind me, my daughter, when she was in uh elementary school or middle school, I found a small book on the uh 555th uh parachute infantry team, which was the first all-black parachute infantry team. It's a small book, but it's all the combat, you know, all the the adult teenage stuff taken out of it, it's more of here the here's what they are, here's what they achieved. But it was written in a format for fourth and fifth graders so that they could start learning this stuff at an early age. Yeah, comic books. There you go, graphic novels.

SPEAKER_04 53:53

Midway. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 53:59

Yeah, because you're the artist, she's the author. Put your skills together and Bob's your uncle.

SPEAKER_01 54:05

His grandson being the artist, I think, is a wonderful thing. And thank God for teachers like you, Jeff, because we will never come together as a country without teachers telling us why we should come together. When kids know the story, Jester's story, they're excited about it. They want to be like him, they want to know Latham, they want to know me because I knew him. Um, and these are kids oftentimes who come from families who don't know the story at all. If we can only get the stories of all the groups of people in our country who have helped the country out there, it'll make a huge difference. So thank you, Jeff.

unknown 55:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 55:03

Watch this. Hey, Latham, earlier we we discovered something about you recently, and we were also talking separately about how being outside, returning the nature is healthy. I understand that you just kind of recently learned about some silversmithing and and taking silver and getting back to your your roots. Have you found that therapeutic or have you found that working with silver and learning that art is kind of taking your um into a direction or something that you didn't anticipate?

SPEAKER_04 55:33

Yes, yes, that definitely. And and I can contribute that back to my grandfather also. You know, um, it was it's kind of funny because you know, I I was lost for a long time with alcoholism. You know, I uh started drinking heavily when I was in high school, and I went into the construction field and it just went out of control from hanging around rough neck most of my life. But um, I I sobered up when I came home. I sobered up. And that's when my grandfather, my dad had uh injured his back, and he couldn't take my grandfather on the trips anymore. So that's where uh that's where I think you know the great spirit came in because you know I needed to find myself again and my grandfather needed somebody. So I was able to take over my dad's space and and care for my grandfather. And and in doing that, I was able to heal myself, get myself um like I say, you know, when you're when you're recovering from alcoholism, you're you're just a lost soul, you know. You you you abandoned everything, you know, you you're everything you are, you know, to to drink. So when I came back to my grandfather, he was very key in guiding me back into who I am as far as being an Avahoe. And then further learning his story and empowering me with pride in that, you know, we did save this country. Our language and our people did do something for this country that needs to be recognized, it needs to be acknowledged. So that's when I came full circle and I had a purpose again. I was taking care of my grandfather, and I have my pride back, you know, and then my heritage started to come back, you know. Um I started learning the stories from my grandfather, then that's when the jewelry started to come back. And I wanted to focus not on the contemporary Native American jewelry, I wanted to do the traditional Navajo style ingot jewelry that my great-great-grandfathers used to do, you know, the traditional way, melting down coins or real sil or pure silver down to ingots, and then taking those ingots and then making your your either your plate silver or your bars uh from bracelets and stuff like that. So it's a lot more work, but yeah, I can call it traditionally handmade Nablo Hub jewelry.

SPEAKER_05 57:59

And there's just something satisfying about something being there that didn't exist before that you're personally responsible for creating.

SPEAKER_04 58:06

Yes, you know, I I I am see myself as a steward, yes. Uh a steward of a craft that is dying. There's not very many Tufa casters out there anymore. And that was one of the other reasons why I wanted to go down that avenue is because you know I wanted to save it. Uh I'm not flu into my language, but I'm damn good with my hands. So if I can't do it with the language, I'll do it with my skills.

SPEAKER_05 58:33

Jeff, you have another any other questions?

SPEAKER_02 58:35

Let Latham, I got a question for you. One last question. Uh, first of all, I agree with everything you've been saying, so thank you for saying all of it. Thank you for joining us. Appreciate your time. But I guess the one last question I have is uh, you know, I'm assuming he's one of those veterans, Chester, that you know, never really talked about it, you know, growing up. But when he did talk about it for the book, you know, all these incredible stories were able to pop up. And you know, it just makes you wonder what was when he was alive, what what was Chester like? You know, can you share any any uh your favorite memories with with with Chester?

SPEAKER_04 59:05

Yeah, well the Chester I knew before he before I knew him as a code talker. Um he was my babysitter. Um my earliest memories of him, you know, my my parents they worked split shifts, and uh my dad worked nights, my mom worked days. So, you know, somebody's always home, but somebody's always sleepy. So my grandfather was always there, and he would come in and uh take care of us kids and make sure we got to school and fed and all that. But my my biggest memories was of him just playing with us. You know, he he loved cartoons, he would sit there and watch Merry Melodies with us for hours. You know, that was his favorite cartoon, Merry Melodies. He was an artist, and I I didn't realize that when I was younger. Um, it wasn't until I was in high school that I started noticing that we had um sketchbooks, and I'd stumbled across them like, well, who did this? And they're like, Your grandpa. I'm like, what? Holy cow. So I mean that was his thing, is his art. And um and so you know, growing up, you know, he was just like the best grandfather you could ever have. Um never mean, never mad, always humble, always calm. And that's how I remember him as a kid. And then uh after when we started when I grew up and in his later years, he was the same as far as being very humble. Um but you know, he's just the s he was just the sweetest, sweetest guy. Like I said, um you know, when I have a bad day and and and think about, you know, I want to give up and you know, I think about him and what he went through. And and then I think about how he handled it and how he was after the fact, you know. I mean he was never bitter, you know, and I really learned from that, you know, uh to not go down that route, you know, it's it's it's useless and it doesn't get you anywhere. So you know, he he really he he pointed out some good uh some good characteristics to me growing up that I embody now because he showed me you know, he just he showed me. He didn't tell me or teach me, he just showed me that's uh that's how you know it should be.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:26

Well, I think that's a perfect note to go out on. Um so I want to thank you for your time. And of course, um wanna promote that book once again. Zach, hold that up for the audience.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:40

Absolutely. Thank you, Judy, so much. For those in our audience that are interested in learning more, I cannot recommend this book enough. Out of the hundreds of books I've read, easily a top five best books ever written about World War II by Chester Nez and the Cow Talker. So pick it up on Amazon.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:54

Thank you. You guys gotta send us your mailing address. We'll send you a signed book.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:58

Oh, please. Oh, yes, please.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:01

You know that uh there's a family photo in there, and we usually all the family members will sign it.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:05

Beautiful. We'll get that sent out. Yep, got room on the shelf for it.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:11

Real quick, Judy. Real quick, uh, how close are you to uh Las Cruces?

SPEAKER_04 1:02:19

Four hours? No, I think it's like three and a half. Three and a half? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:25

We'll stay in we'll stay in touch because I will be out there the last weekend in October for an air show out there. I'll be bringing my display, and I would absolutely love to meet you guys in person.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:35

Oh, yeah, let's tell you hello. Jeff we may be out of state. Um, we're taking a trip back to New Hampshire because we own some land back there, and we're building a cabin there, and we've been delayed. We haven't been able to leave when we expected to go, so we may be back there in October.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:02

If there's a time to go to the East Coast, October is that time because that's when all the leaves are changing, and it's just absolutely wonderful back there.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:09

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:11

It is I grew up in Ohio. I left Ohio in 2001, moved to California, and then I moved to Florida in 04. That's the thing I miss the most about Ohio and Kentucky is the uh season change.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:23

Yeah, last year was the first year I was able to see it up in New Hampshire, that New England foliage. That was amazing.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:29

Yeah, you never realize how many color versions of orange exist.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:33

Yeah, yeah. It's all about the red red rock cliffs, but I mean that's a whole different situation up there when that happens.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:41

Well, we'll stay in touch just in case.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:43

So beautiful. Well, what's that, Jeff? I think uh kite you off.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:50

Oh, I said we'll stay in touch just in case you're there. We'll stay in touch.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:53

That'd be great. I I know um that uh Zach has my email and maybe even my phone number. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:04

I do, and I checked out the website. If you guys have any appearances you guys are gonna make, whether that's New Mexico or anywhere else, yeah, please make sure that's updated on your guys' website because I'd love to make a trip out there too. Please plug that website, Judith. What is your website?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:18

It's just Judith Umavila.com. Or is it Judith Shees Avila? Do you remember?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:27

You know what? Because that is how I got your information. Actually, let me uh let me check that out right now.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:34

That's so funny.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:39

Uh it's yeah, it's Judithavila.com. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:43

Okay. Yeah. Got it right.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:45

Which is a great looking website, by the way. Whoever designed it, great, great job.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:49

Really sure. I did it.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:52

Very nice.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:52

I did it myself.com. You'll see this episode on the cover. You click on the link, and we'll have all the pertinent images, links, websites, and upcoming events. Thank you guys so much. And for myself, Judith, Latham, Jeff, and Zach, we will talk to you all in a few weeks.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:14

This has been a Digital Fortin production.