What's The Scuttlebutt Podcast
Step into history with The What’s The Scuttlebutt Podcast (WTSPWWII), your go-to source for deep dives into the events, untold stories, and extraordinary individuals of World War II. In some episodes, we bring you firsthand accounts from veterans who served on the front lines, offering their personal experiences and unique perspectives on the realities of war. We also sit down with acclaimed authors who have dedicated their careers to uncovering hidden narratives and shedding light on lesser-known aspects of the conflict. But we don’t stop at books and battlefield accounts—we also explore the world of WWII cinema. From directors and producers to screenwriters, we talk with the creative minds behind the films that bring history to life on the big screen. For those who live history firsthand, we feature dedicated WWII reenactors who meticulously recreate battles, uniforms, and daily life from the era, offering an immersive glimpse into the past. Whether you’re a history enthusiast, a military buff, or simply fascinated by the human stories that emerged from this defining moment in history, WTSPWWII is your ultimate destination. Join us as we honor the past, celebrate the heroes, and preserve the legacy of World War II for generations to come.
What's The Scuttlebutt Podcast
Chronicling Combat: Sandra McGee on WWII Amphibious Forces
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Digital 410 Media proudly presents the What's the Scuttle Butt Podcast with your hosts, Don Abernathy, Jeff Kopsetta, and Dennis Blocker.
SPEAKER_05Welcome everybody to another episode of the What's the Scuttlebutt Podcast, your favorite World War II based podcast, and we are back for another episode. Joining us from Texas, as always, Mr. Dennis Blocker. Dennis, how are you doing tonight, sir?
SPEAKER_06Great. Doing good. It's nice to um. We had a lot of rain, as everybody in the country knows. And uh it's we had a little reprieve from that, and it looks like we might be getting some more from a tropical storm, so we're uh bracing for that. Um been busy, you know, doing my research for this other book I'm working on. I think I'm gonna call it Sitting Ducks, but um it's gonna be about uh actually the gunboats there. Um Iwajima. So yeah, just working on that. Zach, as everybody knows who listens to the podcast, uh famously after 20 years of research I did, showed me I missed out on 20 years of uh valuable research from the National Archives that all I had to simply do was request. So uh daily, almost daily, I get packets from the National Archives now because I'm like a madman requesting their records from every single guy. So it's it's it's fun though. It's like a Christmas present every time I open the mapbox.
SPEAKER_05A little inside baseball behind the scenes for the audience. Um, between Dennis and Zach, we have this new research department. I was at Mission Barbecue down the street from my house, and they don't usually change the interior that often. And so when you're in a particular mission barbecue, you get familiar with the stuff on the wall as you're waiting for your food, and I noticed a new shadow box, and it had the a nice cut-out wooden navy logo, but then it had the the very distinct World War II, late World War I, early World War II oval dog tag. The Marines used them early on, but the Navy used them, and I simply took a picture of it because it said U.S. Navy reserves, had the guy's blood type, name, service number. I texted to Dennis and Zach in a group text, and I think before I made it home, they told me when he served, what what ship he was assigned to, what battles they were in, uh, what date it got hit on. And so I'm like, you know, I'm like, well, I probably should call this mission barbecue and see if you know that they acquire this at an antique store, was it donated? Because I was thinking, how cool it'd be if we printed that up on a nice heavy stock and put it in the frame and they could put it next to this dog tag, it's with some ribbons and just a naval icon. But for you, those of you at home, that's how quickly uh when it comes to anything navy related, these two gentlemen can acquire some information for you. So if you're looking for some information on a relative that served in the Navy between all, I don't know, 41 and 46, just mail email us at mail call at WTSPworldwar 2.com, and you have something as simple as the service tag code for your uh your relative. These two could probably acquire some information that maybe you and your family's been looking for for quite a while.
SPEAKER_06Well, I'll tell you, Don, that's what makes the our guest tonight, Sandra, so special is because she was doing that research before i5.
SPEAKER_04That's right. Doing it. She crawled so that one day we could run, you know.
SPEAKER_05Well, without any further ado, Zach, please do us the privilege of invite in introducing our guest to the audience tonight.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. Well, thanks, Don. Uh, for those aspiring writers out there, our guest tonight is one of the most talented, all-around hardworking writers that I've ever met. Um, she helped edit, proofread, and co-author the amphibious operations in the South Pacific trilogy by the late William L. McGee, uh, which are among the best books that are ever written about the amphibious force in the South Pacific in World War II. Her contributions to those classics, especially Pacific Express and The Amphibians Are Coming, continue to inspire a whole new generation of readers. So it is my great pleasure to introduce a very special friend of both mine and Dennis's, author Sandra McGee. Thank you, Sandra, for joining us tonight.
SPEAKER_01Hey, Zach, that was a wonderful introduction. And um for the viewers and listeners, I've known Zach and Dennis. I could say how long, I don't think I will, but I met them in um in, I believe, uh Portland um in 2001 at uh help me with the name of the the group, um LCI.
SPEAKER_06National LCI Association.
SPEAKER_01Right. Uh Zach, I don't think you were there, were you?
SPEAKER_04No, so not no one.
SPEAKER_01Not at that particular reunion. But I've known these two young men uh for a lot of years, and um uh the our our country's history can't be in better hands than with Zach Morris and Dennis Blocker.
SPEAKER_02Thank you so much for saying that to you.
SPEAKER_01I think we discovered Dennis because we asked him to write the preface for Pacific Express. And Dennis, correct me if I'm wrong, but this was one of your first writings to be published?
SPEAKER_06That was my first writing, my very first writing to be published. Yeah. Yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01So I should have should have gotten your autograph on a book. But um, anyway, thank you.
SPEAKER_04Oh, absolutely. So let's get right into it. Speaking of Pacific Express and the amphibians are coming in that whole trilogy, for those that have that have both read it and haven't read it, as an editor and proofreader, you have worked on some of the largest, most impressive collections of World War II books that, in my opinion, has ever been written. These these are so invaluable to to Pacific historians, these books. I I have to ask, what was your so Bill passed away a few years ago, uh, you said five years ago, when he was working on these projects with you and you were involved, what was your guys' writing process like to attack such large projects like you know, the amphibians are coming, Pacific Express, you know, for up-and-coming authors out there that that want to write about nonfiction or World War II history in general, you know, how did you guys approach things?
SPEAKER_01Well, um Bill never set out to be a World War II military historian, so that I don't want to burst that bubble, but um he uh had been in broadcasting, broadcast advertising behind the mic, the other side of the mic, for about 32 years. And he had done writing. Uh, they were books uh to teach the salesman how to sell, and um he had done some videos, uh, but he was uh what what what they call a just the facts ma'am type of writer, very, very bottom line journalistic. So he never set out to uh be a World War II military historian, but in 1991 he saw a story in the San Francisco Chronicle, a story written by Carl Nolte, and the uh SS Jeremiah O'Brien, which is uh is it doctor birthed? I don't know the correct word, but it's in San Francisco on the embarcadero. And the story in the chronicle uh was seeking volunteers to help work on the Jeremiah O'Brien. She was a World War II Liberty ship. She had been at the D-Day landings, actually made 11 crossings uh with material and personnel to the Omaha Beach. And um she now was in San Francisco, and so uh the the trustees of that ship were looking for volunteers to help get her in shape. They had about three years to get her in shape to return to Normandy for the 50th anniversary in 1994. And uh Bill drove, we were living in Napa then, he drove the next day to San Francisco and uh volunteered. And he was chipping paint and scrubbing floors alongside the young salts, as he called them. And of course, to them, Bill was an old salt, and they were asking him all kinds of questions because Bill was in a branch of the service called the Naval Armed Guard, which not many people knew about. And that was a branch of service that uh they carried guns and they protected the ships. Uh, that was their their their role. And um so one of the young assaults said, Well, you're a writer, why don't you write about the armed guard? Not not much has been written about the armed guard. That's all Bill needed. He was often running, and in those days, 1991, research was by telephone, mail, very, very, I don't even know what was on the internet then, but it wasn't much. He uh booked a trip on a freighter, a six-week trip to South America, and when he came back from that trip, he had the first draft for Blue Jacket Odyssey, which was his first World War II military history. My part in this was not very glamorous. I was the head typist, meaning I was the only typist. And Bill rented a small office. We were in it together for hours and hours at a time. Didn't speak to each other, he was doing his work, I was doing mine, you don't talk. At two o'clock, I'd say, excuse me, Bill, I'm going next door to get some coffee and oatmeal cookies, I'll be right back. And um, Blue Jacket Odyssey was published by a traditional uh publisher. Uh Will Jaffy was his last name. Can't can't think of his first name right now, but um Bill had met him on the Jeremiah O'Brien. And Blue Jacket Odyssey was actually very well received. I I'm sounding surprised because um when I read it now, you know, I mean, Zach and Dennis is writers, and Don, I don't know yet if you're a writer, but if you're like me, we're never happy with anything. And we opened up a book, and oh my god, I want to change that, you know. So when I look at Blue Jacket Odyssey now, and I think, oh, you know, that could have been said a different way. But it was very well received. Um, in fact, the first review was from the Naval Institute, and um, it was a very good review. So after Blue Jacket Odyssey was published, which was 1997. This is a long answer to your question, but Bill had he had two problems. He had all this material that didn't make it into Blue Jacket Odyssey.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And what well, you know, what do you do with it? No, you don't throw it away. Not uh researchers and writers don't do that. Do you gift it to a museum or you know an archive somewhere? Do you do nothing with it? Um, and he had another problem. He and the publisher had a very bad falling out, what wasn't a nice one at all. Very bad. So Bill decided with all the material he had, he would write a trilogy, a three-book series, the amphibio the amphibious operations in the South Pacific and World War II, and he would self-publish them. He knew he knew self-publishing if you know in the 1990s was still very new. It did not have a good reputation. But Bill was actually self-publishing in the 1970s and 1980s. He was writing guidebooks for salesmen, broadcast salesmen, and he was self-publishing them, you know. I mean, it was on a typewriter and a pair of scissors and cutouts and paste up, but it was self-publishing. And um that's how the trilogy came about. It was very well received by all different branches, and I don't know if I ever told Dennis this, but back then I was I was on Amazon Advantage. Print on demand wasn't available yet on Amazon. So I was on Amazon Advantage, and I wasn't getting orders for Pacific Express one copy at a time. I was getting orders for a carton, a case at a time. So I had we bought a dolly, and I was taking several cases at a time to the post office, and it seemed every time I got to the post office, everyone around me had a back problem. So I had to lift the cases up to the counter. And uh it turned out that the commandant at that time of the Marine Corps had selected Pacific Express to be on his professional reading list as required reading for active and um retired Marines. And actually, we're still we're we're still on that list, but we're also on it's I think it's the third Marine Logistic Corps. We're on their list. So Pacific Express is really the best side uh seller out of the nine titles that um I say I have on Amazon now. So that's that's how the trilogy came about. And um the trilogy, Pacific Express. Well, let me back up a bit. Volumes one and two.
SPEAKER_05So that's perfect.
SPEAKER_01Oh dear, is it back? Yeah, yeah, it's back.
SPEAKER_05Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_01Because I'm on my laptop. Um volumes one and two were published in 2000 and 2001. And then I I've hardly told anyone this. I was really protective of Bill's image, but um maybe it doesn't matter now. In 2003, he became illegally blind from macular degeneration, and that threw our life upside down and sideways, and it was really very very stressful. Wow. So Pacific Express sat on the shelf for about eight years, and I really I was thinking uh the other day, why did it come off the shelf? I don't remember really. And it might have been because maybe I thought Bill needed a project because um for someone like him, his mind was still very sharp. It was just that he couldn't read or write, but his mind was sharp. And so I thought if we could figure out a way to work on Pacific Express, we we we should do it. That would keep him engaged, keep his mind engaged. So Pacific Express wasn't published till 2009.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I I I do want to say though, Sandra, that that kind of makes it even more impressive that he was able to give us these uh huge volumes of nonfiction books like Pacific Express while he, you know, having a disability like being blind. I think that that's for whatever reason it was pulled off the shelf as a project. I just think that's so impressive and and speaks volumes about the type of writer and person, the character that that Bill had as an author. So it really is impressive.
SPEAKER_01You for you want to show your preface, Dennis? Oh, look at all those.
SPEAKER_06No, I was just gonna show that uh one of my favorite memories that I'll cherish forever in my life is the opportunity I had to uh join Bill on the stage at the LCI reunion, and this is the book that he gave me, and he had everything already, all of these post-it notes in there, the sections that he wanted me to read.
SPEAKER_01And you kept them. Oh my.
SPEAKER_06Because of uh the the his his vision. So he asked if I would read these sections, and it turned out to be a huge hit at the uh at the meeting that day.
SPEAKER_01I I volunteered to interview him and he turned me down, so he asked, he wanted you to interview him. Well, you know, Pacific Express, I I think it's a very heavy book. I mean, not just weight-wise, but it's very heavy reading. So if you can imagine, I read that book out loud to Bill many, many times. And it's very, you know, it's a heavy book. It's it's it's uh Bill did Bill Bill didn't write it to be absolutely perfectly correct. It's actually a collection of what he thought were the best writings by other writers on military logistics. So we wrote or he wrote a lot of the introductions and maybe some segue passages. Um but I read that book out loud to him and we had the system when he wanted to stop me to make an edit, instead of interrupting me, which really I didn't like, I asked him to raise his finger. I'd be in my first sentence, the finger would go say, could I just at least read the paragraph before you start stopping me? Sandra, I might forget. So it was very it was tedious. Yeah, and um it tried our patience. We were we're both impatient people, it tried our patience. Um if I could go back and do all that over again, I'd try to be a nicer person. But uh you know, it I think husband and wife working together tries your patience enough as it is. But uh when when one spouse has a huge handicap, as in they can't see, and we tried all the visual aids, and as his vision got worse and worse and worse, he he didn't even recognize me visually towards the end. I'd have to introduce myself. So um it it was very um it was tedious, but we did it. And I'm glad we did, because based on feedback that I get, you know, from you and Zach and Dennis and other people like the Marine Corps, we've contributed something.
SPEAKER_04So that's a perfect segue, uh Sandra, and the kind of speaking of the husband and wife duo that you guys are attacking the book is I I've always wondered this is so as you're going through and proofreading Bill's works, would you say that your style of writing is it was the same as Bill's, or was it completely different and just it was a perfect, it was a perfect mesh to have to both creative sides work on a project?
SPEAKER_01By the time we got to the uh trilogy, um I was promoted. We we hired uh she wasn't a student, she was in the administration at uh UC Santa Barbara. That's where we were living then, and she did the typing, and I was promoted to proofreader and editor, and I'm not sure actually that was a promotion, but um our styles were not that different because I came from a background as a publicist for the performing arts, but I was a publicist, and my press releases were uh who, what, when, where, and how to buy tickets. So they were very uh just the facts. And maybe there could be a paragraph that was a little more flowery and descriptive, but that was the one that might get usually got cut if if if the paper needed space. So um, no, our styles weren't that different. However, before Bill passed away, and I think this was literally the night before, I said, Bill, I'm thinking of rewriting some of the books that we did together. And he he said, you know, why? And I said, Well, because I want to, you know, I I think I I I'm better at a lot of things now, and I have some ideas. And uh he said, Well, okay, you have my permission. And I said, Well, I was going to do it anyway, but thank you. And so um, I've been rewriting. I will not rewrite Pacific Express, it's almost 600 pages, and you know, I'm not going to write rewrite any of the writings of Other writers. And I'm not going to rewrite Amphibians or Solomon's. I think they should stay as is. But uh some of the other books that we did, um, I'm rewriting and um trying to be what's called creative nonfiction. They're still factual. You can still you have to prove everything, I can still prove everything, but a little more a little more of a creative style. Um so that that's what I'm doing now with a few of our books. I I don't think that oh, your question about working together. Um in the Bay Area Independent Publishers Association that I belong to, I've been in this group for about 10 years. At one meeting during a break, I I remember this one woman that came running up to me. She was practically in tears, and she said, My husband wants me to help work on his book with him. I what I don't know what to do. What should I do? And I guess that I wasn't in a very good mood that day because I answered her and I said, You have your marriage or you have your working relationship, but I don't think you can have both of them.
SPEAKER_03Oh man.
SPEAKER_05Well, I mean, that's kind of a that's kind of an accepted um storyline for any couple who go into business, whether it's publishing, running a bakery, a computer firm, anytime you work with family, you know, just it's it's the stress of the work, but I think it also comes down just you're literally spending every waking hour. Whereas every waking hour that eight hours of going off to your own profession now, you know, so you're not around each other, but when you're working with each other, you're literally spending every waking hour unless one of those people is a salesperson out on the road. I want to back up real quick just because um I have a little bit of experience in broadcasting. You said he was before he started publishing his his sales books, was he writing copy on the sales side, or where did he get his early writings of you said he was just uh just a fax type writer for broadcasting and all that? Was he writing sales copy? What was he writing?
SPEAKER_01Um Bill, he was in what what what's called broadcast marketing and sales. Can't hold this book straight there. This is the one I one of the books I just finished rewriting, actually, as my proof copy. Um he was born and raised and grew up as a cowboy in Montana, in a little cowtown of Montana called Malta. And after the war, he got a job on a fancy dude ranch in Nevada. They were called divorce ranches then because they catered, it was a dude ranch that catered to wealthy people that went to Nevada to get a six-week divorce. And Bill ended up marrying one of the young ladies that stayed on his ranch to get a divorce. Well, as he learned, he should have known better, but these Eastern ladies that married cowboys, they wanted to show off their cowboys, but they wanted them to wear suits and jack blazers and uh change them, and they wanted them to get nine to five jobs and be home for dinner every night. That is exactly what happened to Bill. And um, that's there's a few years that happened before he got into broadcasting, but uh Donnie started out selling syndicated television programs for um an arm of allied artists at at the time in the late 19 early 1960s, syndicated television programs were a big deal because they were filling a lot of time slots on different stations, like Bill sold uh My Little Margie, Armiss Brooks, The Little Rascals. Um, those are just a few of the series that he sold. And um then he went to work for a company called ITC, which was a joint venture between Lou Grade in England and Jack Rather in the United States, and they uh co-produced some really neat TV series like Cannonball, uh, For Just Men, Danger Man, those series from the 1960s. And Bill started his own company in 1971 because he didn't feel uh well, let me put it another way, he felt that he could help the sales management and their sales teams be better salespeople. And so that is how he got into writing and giving seminars, and he wrote about a dozen what he called how how-to guidebooks uh to sell spots on television, mostly television in his case, but also radio. And um he did very well with his own company called Broadcast Marketing Company or BMC for short. And he was able to retire about uh eight or nine years after he started his company. He was 59 years old, and he sold uh BMC to a company in North Carolina, Jefferson Pilot, and that allowed Bill to retire. So um that what what was your background in the world?
SPEAKER_05I was actually a I um actually worked as an afternoon FM radio show producer for six years, but being in the radio, you see all of it going back now. You know, I go back and watch WKRP in Cincinnati, it means a whole lot more to me now than it did when I was because I understand the jokes. But what's interesting, and one of the things I learned after my six years is when you're in that environment, for the case of the salesmen, especially those who write and copy, they learn the economy of words because you know you're you're trying to get this advertisement in 15 seconds or 30 seconds or a minute, depending on what size of the commercial. But the other thing I noticed as some one of the things, one of my tasks during this four-hour afternoon show is some point during that show, while live, while still doing all my producer jobs, I had to take a 30-minute segment from earlier in that day, edit it down to five and a half minutes, have a beginning, a middle, and an end, and have it ready to play at 5 45 before we went off air. And what I've discovered, people our contemporaries have no idea the concept of time. People think five seconds is 30. You can get a lot done in 30 seconds, and but my point is is when you work in those environments, especially whether it's live, you you you truly get an understanding of what 30 seconds is, what 15 seconds is, what a minute is, and how much content, whether it's whether it's written word or whatever, to fit in that amount of time.
SPEAKER_01And so that's interesting.
SPEAKER_05The economy of words of how much you can get into a certain amount of time. Um a lot of people learn real quick when they get into radio sales or TV sales.
SPEAKER_01Uh, when Bill had his own company in San Francisco, one of his employees, uh, we we had her over for lunch uh years after the company was dissolved. And she told me the story of Bill's dreaded red pen. You know, when when an employee would bring in something for Bill to read and they'd see him pull out his red pen, you know, they knew he was in for some editing. So in my case, when Bill became legally blind, the red pen was replaced by the finger raising up. But um yeah, Bill, Bill was a very bottom line, straightforward writer, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But one of the reasons I'm rewriting some of his books is that maybe they can make it into audiobooks. And the way that Bill has written them, they they don't work as audiobooks. You know, I've read them out loud to myself, and I'm thinking this this isn't a this isn't very good. So um I'm write rewriting like the broadcasting years and another book, a very little slim book about how I got into sales, his his transition from cowboying into selling. And I've just finished rewriting that and um with a thought in mind of turning them into audiobooks. I won't narrate, of course, but um that's my thought because audiobooks are considered the best selling today.
SPEAKER_04That is a great idea, it really is.
SPEAKER_05Especially back in those days, sales in and of itself is a cutthroat job. You had to meet expectations, you had to meet sales numbers, but then to compound that to work sales and broadcasting. Um, I've done a lot of jobs in my life, and my six years in broadcasting opened my eye. I never seen more nepotism, I've never seen people stand on someone else's back to take a job, take salary. The media and then media sales is I don't know, it's the true definition of dog eat dog. And I can imagine Bill probably got his point across quick and probably didn't suffer fools well because of the type of environment that he worked in for all those years. I just would have to imagine, just for my six years of and I was a producer. I I sat on the outside watching this salesman and just watching that work, and just yeah, I can only imagine.
SPEAKER_01No, you're you're right. Bill Bill was a tough looking guy with a a beard. Zach, you're you're due to grow a beard to stay in this group.
SPEAKER_04Right? The odd man out.
SPEAKER_01He had a deep voice and he could drive people to tears, but um uh somehow the the two of us got along. I mean, I I I I think I know why, but um I was in awe of Bill's creativity, to be honest with you. Um he grew up during the depression, he didn't finish high school, he tried college on the GI Bill after the war. He dropped out of two semesters because he, you know, he had just come off the war and uh Operation Crossroads and couldn't keep his head in the books. And um I would say where do you get these ideas from? How how how did you how'd you learn to be a writer? And where do you get these creative ideas from? I don't know. And Bill had confidence, confidence galore. I don't know where that came from either, because he was you know deserted by his father when he was seven years old, and his father took off during the depression and never sent a dime home. So he grew up with that non-family life and um lack of formal education, and um so did Henry J. Kaiser, by the way. Henry J. Kaiser was an eighth grade dropout.
SPEAKER_05I think what happened to him. I think a certain level of confidence is almost a survival technique, right? Especially when you're put in those situations where you're put upon yourself at an early age to figure out how to raise money or to acquire the needs for yourself and or your family. Um obviously confidence comes with sales, but yeah, I think once you get that confidence and you you realize that the way you present yourself to people that you don't know tends to um benefit you. I think once you make that realization, it it it definitely helps you in sales, but more importantly in uh networking, because what's the fundamental of sales is networking, right? You can't sell a product to somebody who don't know they want it if you don't come off as a personable or a um a networkable person. I mean, what's the biggest cliche in the world is the old you know, the old shady used car salesman. And that's because of how you how they would bring themselves off to the point where it's the Simpsons had based on that for 40 years. So confidence definitely I think is a survival technique that uh people pick up early when they're put in that situation.
SPEAKER_01You're you're you're you're probably most certainly right. Uh I as Bill said, he said if you were a kid during the depression, you grew up fast. Especially in his circumstances where you know the the the father ran off and left the mother with four small children in this cowtown. So um uh I I wrote my own little preface in the broadcasting years. Uh that's only a page long, but I had some thoughts I wanted to say. So the book has two prefaces, um, but I don't use the word preface because people don't like prefaces, they tend not to read prefaces, forwards, and introductions. So I don't use those words anymore in my book.
SPEAKER_03That's right.
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SPEAKER_04Sandra, before we leave this topic, is there the next question that I had, it does come back to you know, Bill in general, the confidence, uh the books that we've talked about so far. I didn't know Bill as long as you guys knew him. I'll never forget the phone call that I got from him to offer me the uh the opportunity to be an early reader for Operation Crossroads. I was in the Santa Monica Library working on my book, and I get I get a call from him. And so for our audience that has heard us say these names like Pacific Express, the amphibians are coming, if I could give the audience a hard sell just how special these books are to me before asking this question, I would love to take the time. So the three-volume that we keep referring to, this amphibious forces in the South Pacific trilogy, it's made up of three books. The Pacific Express is the third one we keep talking about about military logistics in the South Pacific. The first two are very, very special to me, too, that I cited in my own book uh right there behind me. Um so The Amphibians Are Coming has a very special place in my heart because that's the volume one of the what sounds like Sanders said, the leftover material from Blue Jacket Odyssey. That one right there that Sanders holding up. The Amphibians Are Coming. One of my all-time favorite books, because when I was working on my book, I came through it and had no idea. Basically, The Amphibians Are Coming is a breakdown. There's four main parts of that book: Destroyer Squadrons. Um, we have the uh LCT Flotilla 5, LC LST Flotilla 5, and then the last chapter, my favorite one, LCI Flotilla 5, which is what my grandpa Steven Gansberger was in. And I remember flipping through that last chapter, couldn't believe it was about Flotilla 5, and then I see an interview from Elmo Angelo Pucci, who was my grandpa's best friend on the 329, and I just rose, and it was amazing. And so with that, the second book is the Solomon's Campaigns, which is basically Guadacanal to Boganville, um, the South Pacific campaign of the Allies, and then the third book, Pacific Express, all about military logistics. Now, the hard sell for all three of these, they're massive books, they're great, they're full of amazing stories. The next question I have for you is going through all of these trilogies, these nonfiction, these interviews that you're talking about these World War II veterans, are there any special moments that from the editing, researching, you know, interview process that that stand out to you for such great books? Because when you look at the citations, these books, Bill did so many different interviews. Uh, from what I understand, you were present for a lot of those interviews. Like, were there any special moments working on those books that that that you can recall that you like to talk about?
SPEAKER_01Yes. Um I really, I really I loved meeting these veterans. And, you know, we um after Amphibians was published, and especially after the Solomon's Campaigns was published, we lived on the road, crisscrossing the country, going to all any and all World War II veterans reunions and conferences. And um and I, you know, I was enthralled by these stories. And uh I'm gonna tell a really quick story to back up to the Jeremiah O'Brien. Bill was invited to they did get the ship in shape to sa to return to Normandy. They raised enough money and uh and were able to get it in shape. And uh Bill was invited to be one of the older uh sailors on the ship. The younger sailors from the Maritime Association were going to, you know, actually sail the ship. But um he was invited to go and you know sleep in the bunks and chow down and all of that. And I came across a a cruise, cruise ship, Royal Viking, that was making uh the Atlantic crossing to be at Normandy for the anniversary. So um I did I did a sales job on Bill and talked him into going to Normandy on the Royal Viking. And um I I kind of felt guilty because I think, gee, sailing on the O'Brien, that would have been the experience of a lifetime, you know. But Bill accepted reluctantly. He went on Jenny Craig and lost 20 pounds. I signed us up for Arthur Murray, and we went on this cruise, and I remember a couple of my friends saying, Sandra, you're not gonna enjoy. There's gonna be all these older people there, and they're not gonna talk to you. And you know, it's you're not gonna have you're not gonna enjoy those at all. Yeah, it's was one of the most meaningful, I don't know how many days it was to cross the Atlantic, but one of the most meaningful periods of time listening to the stories. Um at our particular dinner table, one of the um veterans was in the army. He actually landed on Omaha Beach and ran up the uh the ladders, they weren't called that, the nets, you know, and survived. He wouldn't talk about it. He didn't say one word the whole time at our meals about that. And another veteran, I don't know how I got started talking to him, but he took a photograph out of his wallet. It was old, it was had been folded, it was wrinkled, and it was him as a young kid pointing a rifle at about 10 or 11 Germans, all with their hands raised. And and I, you know, I'm listening, I said, Wow, you you're you're there all by yourself waiting for backup. I mean, it's you against 10 or 11 of these of these Germans. And um he said, Yeah, I was scared to death. And but he carried that photograph, you know, for 50 years in his wallet. And and he said, I don't know if this is true, but he said, I don't, I don't, I've not shown it to many people because no one asks me about it.
SPEAKER_05So that's an interesting and probably a very authentic perspective of you know, as living historians like Jeff, myself, and Dennis recently got into the hobby. One of the things we try to do with extended you know, obviously. Is keep history alive, but we oftentimes try to quote unquote metaphor metaphorically put ourselves in the shoes of the people that we're studying up on. We've talked to many people who've done battleground tours, but the f I it never occurred to me what's the one thing just about every American service personnel experienced wherever their campaign was, that was a long boat ride in the open ocean. And what a better perspective. Here you are on the open seas for however many days it took you. Granted, you're not zigzagging and you don't have the fear of being sunk by U-boats, but you you could sit on that that prey deck and look out over the ocean and really have the perspective of what so many service personnel stared at, right? But then on top of that, that feeling of being alone, even though the ship's all over the place, and then to think about the the fear of being sunk by a U-boat or air pilots attack. I mean, that's a very unique perspective of what just about every American-based service personnel experienced was that long boat ride.
SPEAKER_01Um I I met um a couple of famous people uh while I was working with Bill. I met Colonel Tibbetts, who flew the Enola Gay and dropped uh the bomb on Hiroshima. Uh that was at the World War II Museum in New Orleans. They had a uh I think it was 50th anniversary of Pearl Harbor, and Bill was invited to to participate in the ceremonies there and the big book signing. And our table is our table is between Colonel Tibbetts and Steven Ambrose. Oh wow, wow and Sandra McGee in the middle, so you know that's pretty awesome. And then uh I met um Don Mosley, who's a radio person, NBC, I think that was his career. And he was at Operation Crossroads in 1946. Oh wow and on my website I have the radio broadcast that was taped 79 years ago today at the Baker Blast. And Don Mosley was one of the on-air uh radio people for that broadcast, and I met him uh through Bill. So I I I don't know. I almost feel like I might have come across as a groupie, but I'm asking these men, you know, hundreds of questions because I don't think I could have done those things that they did.
SPEAKER_04No. I you know, definitely talk about a pinch me moment sitting between Tibbetts and uh Ambrose. Wow. Good Lord.
SPEAKER_01Steven Ambrose had already come out with um oh gosh, what was his first band of brothers? Yeah. I think he had just come out with that because uh Tom Tom Hanks was also uh at those ceremonies. So you know that was that was a big deal. Yeah. So those were pinch me moments. I think another one was seeing my name on the cover of books, even as the with it person. I want to say in Bill's defense, he wanted it to be William L. McGee and Sandra McGee. But I felt that unless I went under a pseudonym, I felt that his name carried more weight on the book, and I insisted I be the with it person, and I haven't changed my mind about that since. So um, but he insisted that my name be on the cover. So that was a pinch me moment.
SPEAKER_06Andrew when you were talking about um the the way that almost like the stars aligned for you to be in the various places that you were, and it just perfectly married up with your own personal um admiration and love of the subject, because there could have been someone else that was placed in that position, but perhaps they were there because they were forced to be. And it's it's interesting the way, and it made me re the reason I mention that is that it made me reflect on my own experiences um growing up, it made me think this story of when I was growing up, I grew up in a very strong, independent, fundamental Baptist home. And so we were not allowed to watch movies with cuss words, and we couldn't listen to music with cuss words, and um, so what that meant was as a kid and as a teenager, we could only watch movies and listen to music that didn't have any of those, and that meant that I could only watch the movies from the 30s and the 40s and the 50s, right? So you see where this is going. So, and then I'm listening to big band music, and um so then you fast forward to now I have this love of World War II history, and I'm interviewing hundreds and hundreds of World War II veterans. Well, I'm like a little time capsule, you know, and they're talking to me, and I'm talking to them about them about Artie Shaw, and you mentioned our Arthur Murray and the dance schools, and and and and you're talking about Ben Crosby and the actors, and uh I'm just dropping names left and right. I know exactly what they're talking about, and I can tell them the songs and the movies, and the it's really interesting. The reason I mentioned that is it's really interesting to see how that the grand architect lines people up on these paths where they're going to their mission is to preserve the stories of those who've gone before, and the grand architect makes sure those people get on that path, and it's I'm just honored to be a part of it. And and when you were talking about it, it made me think about that.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think uh getting back to Bill and Bill and I working as a team, or is it Bill and me working as a team? I don't know or the other.
SPEAKER_05I think it depends on what year you went to school, because right but back when I was in school, it was them and I. Now I think switched it to I and him, so I don't know. I don't know who the rule is.
SPEAKER_01That's funny. Um I failed to mention that we're both workaholics. Uh I I've always would rather have I always preferred creative projects to um raising a family, for example. So, you know, I told Bill I should have been with him during his broadcasting years, because one of the things that um broke up his marriage was Bill was on the road all the time traveling. Wasn't home for dinner at five o'clock. So um you know, I said I should have been with you then, because I would have been on the road with you. And when we did get together um in 1981, we we both had the same work ethic, which is seven days a week, 24 hours. And I I I love having my own little publishing company and being independent and I can't speak highly enough for it or about it.
SPEAKER_05One of the questions I had, and Dennis kind of mentioned it with the interview process, when you guys did your interviews, did you capture any of that on audio or was it pretty much all written?
SPEAKER_01Yes, it was uh with permission. Um it was uh with a recorder on the telephone. The interviews most the interviews were either done on the telephone or in person, and they were captured on uh audio cassettes. And I've I think Dennis, did we give all the audio cassettes to the question is is where are those cassettes?
SPEAKER_04I Don, way ahead of you. I've been working with Sandra. Once I found out those were on tape, I've been dying to get those from the museum of Fredericksburg where they are right now.
SPEAKER_01So I can't remember.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so they have all the cassettes that Dennis helped catalog, and I've been email blasting them for the last like year trying to see. Well, they don't have them converted yet. The issue is they're still cassette format, they don't have them digitized yet, and that's like they don't really have the equipment to digitize old cassettes yet, but they said they are one again, they they are working on it.
SPEAKER_05I was gonna say if there's if there's a trust relationship that can be set up between the three of us, we can make that conversion happen quite.
SPEAKER_04That's that's exactly what I told them. I was like, I have the equipment, just give me permission to send those off to me, I'll give them back. Like, just let me digitize some. But it's obviously it's museums. Sandra said it earlier, it's like that's technically theirs now, so it's it's I uh I rushed the I rushed the gun.
SPEAKER_01I I don't know, we had these terrible fires here several years ago, and you know, I got to thinking, oh my god, I've got all these things here. And I I I don't know, maybe I didn't rush the gun.
SPEAKER_04I I'm not you didn't. It's it's better better there better with them than than any of us. Uh I my house can burn down, you know.
SPEAKER_05I was gonna say that's not an un I was gonna say that's not an unfound fear because anybody familiar with World War II, we are all perfectly aware of the amount of history that was lost due to a collection and a fire in a single. That's true. The fire of the red.
SPEAKER_01I do have an audio recorder, so I mean I'm all for doing what you need to do with the interviews. And if my old fashioned audio recorder would be of use, I will lend it.
SPEAKER_06They they take good care of that stuff. There it's on a third floor, so we don't have to.
SPEAKER_01I'll lend it to one to one of you, not to the museum. I'll never see it again.
SPEAKER_06I got to witness firsthand um when artifacts are you know delivered. I got I I had the privilege of taking you know Bill's items into there. And you and what they do actually, the first thing we did was we took it into this vault, and um they clear the vault, make sure there's no humans in there, and they seal it, and they remove all the oxygen from the room. And they kill it, kills any bookworm, any, any, any parasites, any anything living that's in that room, or in those documents, or in those tucked away silverfish in a whatever, everything dies, and they keep it in there for a considerable amount of time before they bring it out, and then it goes back to this sealed area in the archive. And so I was highly impressed uh when I saw that. Yeah, it's pretty exceptional, and they in there, like I said, they're on the third floor, so it's you don't have to worry about the flooding and all that. Um it's state of the art, it's pretty awesome. And speaking of state of the art, they can't digitize it. They can do all that, but not digitize.
SPEAKER_05Speaking of state of the art, gotta love 2025. Not only can you guys go on Amazon and buy the book of everybody on this podcast but me, because I haven't rent one, but for $36, you can get a cassette deck with a USB. You can digitize your your tape. That's true. Right now, it's got a USB, it's a tape deck, 36 bucks. We can start digitizing this tape.
SPEAKER_04That's that's what I told them. As soon as I'm next Fredericksburg trip, I'm bringing I'm gonna get with the with the rucks, everything, all the equipment's gonna be in the backpack, ready to go. So well, you got a place to stay, Zach.
SPEAKER_01They might be listening to this podcast, but um, Zach, you think that's the only way that they'll give them to you is in person rather than uh mail?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, uh, you know what? I was really lucky that they lent out the books that I still have to go through. Really lucky with the books, but I think something like cassette tape interviews with old veterans, that's a little bit too risky to be sending out. So I did tell them though that it's like as long as they have access and allow me to digitize it when I'm there physically, that they said they had no problem with it.
SPEAKER_05So there's just too many hands involved. Yep, that's true. You got what lots of hands, eight different stops between there and where it's going with the the postal service. Yeah, there's it's it's too much of a risk, right? That'd be like saying, hey, uh send me a copy. Can you email me the decoration of independence so I can take a copy of it?
SPEAKER_01No, yeah, that's a good point. John, um I I want to say something. I don't know where we are on time, but um, I want to say something that um I made it took me five years to make this decision, but um I made the decision this year. Um I wanted to leave the copyrights to Bill's World War II military books somewhere. I I didn't want them to disappear when I'm gone. And um one day I got the idea of Dennis or Zach, but I couldn't decide. And so we had a three-way Zoom meeting.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01I'm right now my my paperwork reads that the copyrights go to both of them, and I don't know how they're going to sort it out, but but I know they're gonna be in very good hands one way or the other.
SPEAKER_05I think every other week and Dennis gets it every third Monday of the month. And much like us kids in the Gen X era, you gotta meet you gotta meet up at McDonald's parking lot there.
SPEAKER_06Um such an honor. It really is. It really is.
SPEAKER_01It's just well, and and you you assured me that you know, when you turn a certain age that you'll find someone that's right, uh, you know, to to carry them on. I I just don't think they should go away, but um I I'm not at the at the level where a big publisher is interested because they're looking at sales figures, you know, like in the six figures a year. Well, I'm not there. So um I'm I'm just really pleased with my decision.
SPEAKER_04Oh yeah. And speaking, I think you touched on it earlier too. There's nothing wrong with be self-publishing your book. Like I self-published it. So for anyone in the audience that are, you know, it's daunting enough to write a book, to have to worry about writing letters to potential agents or publishers. It's like that can be daunting. If you don't want to do that, self-publishing is you know, it's it's easier than you think, you know, to do Kindle Direct Publishing on Amazon or some other. It really is. So it at the end of the day, I chose for several reasons to self-publish mine. And I I really would highly recommend that. If you want to write something, just self-publish it.
SPEAKER_01You know, it'll the whole uh the whole image around self-publishing has changed. Um, as as I'm actually on the board of this independent publishers association in the Bay Area, and um uh there's several hundred of us. We're all self-publishers. The the image there's no longer the stigma there was. Yes, there are some books that are, you know, done in five minutes and they're not that great, but overall, uh I I love self-publishing because I'm in control. No one's going to cut the photos, no one's going to change my copy, and I can change the copy every day if I want and upload a new file to Amazon. I mean, I'm kind of an independent person, so I I like having that kind of control.
SPEAKER_05Well, I mean we're all self-publishers, right? But we self-published our own podcast. 20 years ago, you'd have to have a radio station hire you. Uh YouTube creators and uh, you know, people who create video, they're self self-publishing their own video content. Whereas in the 90s, if you couldn't get on TV, maybe you could buy a time slot on your local public access TV station. But other than that, and so almost everybody, uh if they're a the modern phrase of content creator, whether it's a podcast, video, or paper, you know, media, we're all pretty much self-publishing nowadays. And it gets rid of the gatekeepers, but more importantly, not only the gatekeepers, the the the um the beak wetters in the past there's always that one person who you you had to have involved in your transaction who always got their beak wet. And you know, there were so many of those people that by the time things got published, whether it was music, a magazine, or an article, a book, the the creative force behind that got less and less of the returns because so many other people were involved in that process, which you didn't have a you didn't have a choice in those days, right? Yeah, and so it it leaves more control. And to the point of your copyrights, those are living, breathing things, those things have to be kept up on, right? Those have to be re-filed, re-maintained. Those aren't things that you can let slip. Um not in the same way, but as an IT guy, somebody's been working in the IT field for 20 years. One of the most common things when someone's hey, my email's not working, oh you you let your domain name expire. You forgot to renew it. It's kind of the same thing as a copyright. It's only good for so many years, and you have to file the paperwork to make sure that uh your ownership over that keeps keeps up.
SPEAKER_01Self-publishing has um, according to the meetings that I go to, self-publishing has given the the big five in New York uh a serious run for their money. And um uh I I can't remember the name of this book, but there was one author who was turned down by the big publishers in New York. He self-published and he won a pull it served for his book. A self self-published book. I I don't remember the author's name or his book, but um that's an incredible story.
SPEAKER_03Well yeah.
SPEAKER_05And if you think about it, self-publishing it's probably helping keep the the paper format alive, right? I mean, when you only if if you had fewer people less self-publishing, the only people who were putting out paper materials the big five, as you were saying, they only have so many um IPs that they're willing to risk their money on each year. So the the printed book industry would probably be substantially smaller than it is now if people weren't self-publishing and putting content out there, let al not not not to mention the audio in the digital format of it.
SPEAKER_01That's a very good point. You know, there'd be a lot fewer fewer printed audio and ebooks, actually, a lot fewer.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you guys both bring up really good points. I think someone said it earlier to Sandy, you might have said it earlier. You can if you self-publish on Amazon, you have total control where if, like, let's say you go through and you find a typo, you can jump right in there and fix the PDF and re-upload it. And you know, it doesn't require a new edition or anything. So it's like that that control, it does feel really good to have that. So it's it I could see where some people would prefer to self-publish.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, happened to me with my book Clear, uh, my book Clear about uh my 20-something years in emergency room. I I had a I sent a copy of my book to Dr. Patricia Bay up in um uh Reading, California, and uh she specializes in PTSD and whatnot. And uh she had me on her podcast and she was like, I I love the book. And she says, I recommend that in the the section part three, if you have the ability, if you could put a disclaimer that says, if you're currently suffering from PTSD or whatnot, you may want to skip this section uh such and such and such and such. And I was like, what beautiful advice. And because of self-publishing, I was able to do it. And just as Sandra said, the next batch that goes out, the next ones that sold almost instantaneously, relatively, compared to how things usually work. But you just upload the change, and now all the books have that disclaimer. It's it's pretty awesome.
SPEAKER_05I didn't realize it was that instantaneous. Oh, yeah, it's fast. Oh, it's fast.
SPEAKER_04Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_05I didn't realize you had the ability to unlock, update, and relock in your your manuscript. Yeah, on Amazon.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05That's amazing.
SPEAKER_01Actually, I I uploaded the uh uh new ebook version, oh, to Bill's book about how he got into sales. I uploaded um the the most recent ebook version yesterday, late afternoon. And by when I woke up this morning, it was I I did a look inside and it was already on Amazon. I do want to say, uh, because Bill and I had another book in the works. I don't know that I'm ever going to write it because I'm not sure there's a market for it, but um it's about self-publishing, being a self-publisher and marketer. And marketing is where a lot of authors and self-publishers they hate it. They don't they maybe don't know how to do it, but they definitely don't want to do it.
SPEAKER_05And uh it just changes so often. And it's marketing is one of those things, like if you're going to do it and you're gonna do it yourself, you have to it's one of those things you have to keep up on. It changes, especially now with technology and algorithms, it changes so quick. I remember, and this was I've been out of radio for eight years now. I remember when I worked at uh the radio station, they would lit Facebook was still all the rage, right? This is back when every commercial had a Facebook link, every author either had a Twitter. They were spending money to bring in Facebook consultants to explain what the current algorithm was. And perfect example at the time, this is 2013, 2014, they'd they had discovered through this consultant at that time that if you put up a Facebook Text without image that it would not get any shares. But then if you try to take an image and then embed a phone number or a lot of text, their their algorithm could detect the phone number and detect so much text that they knew it was marketing and they wouldn't share it. And so you literally had company spending money to have consultants tell you how to get around the latest algorithms in order for your content to be seen that you're publishing. And that was a huge thing. Now Facebook obviously has died down, being replaced with TikTok and other sources, but the the industry is the same as like because it changes so quickly, it's so hard to keep up on unless you are in it or have somebody on your team who's in it all the time just to keep it going because it's constantly changing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's why on Facebook um you'll the the you'll see that actually this trend started fairly recently where in the you know comment it'll say uh link and link in the I'm sorry, in the where you the text where you're writing your your post, post, that's the word I'm looking for. In your post, it'll say the link is in the comment because just as you said, Dawn, if Facebook detects you're gonna send somebody off of Facebook, they they might not uh share your post that often.
SPEAKER_05And that's not only that, but by putting it in the comment, by people going to your comment and reading it, it considered as an engagement, which then pushed out more. So by them going to the comment, that's why like you'll see a lot of um TikTokers or Instagrammers say, Oh, say this word in the comment, say this word in the comment, and we'll reach out to you. Well, what they're doing is they're getting people just to comment so that it shows engagement, and these are all little tricks, and then after a while they'll crack down on them, and then they have to find new ways. But yeah, tricks, yeah. Marketing is it's just so tricky nowadays.
SPEAKER_01Well, um what goes along with being an independent publisher, of course, is the willingness to do the work. And uh it it, you know that's that's a lot of authors they don't they don't want. Bill had a saying, and I'm going to clean it up, but as military men, you'll be able to guess what his original language was. But Bill had a saying, and it was the only way to write is ours in seat. And you know, that applies to uh almost any aspect of independent publishing. The writing, the marketing, the formatting of a book, that all all of that. But anyway, some of us like it.
SPEAKER_04I think that's a perfect way to end with this last question, speaking of Bill and advice and sayings and things like that. Unfortunately, Bill is not around anymore. He's such a gifted author and a great, great guy. Do you think that Bill would have any advice for future writers or anybody interested in following in his footsteps writing World War II history? Do you think Bill would would have wanted to share any advice tonight?
SPEAKER_01I'm really glad you asked that question. And actually, I hate when people answer saying that, and I just said it. Um that's a very good question. I'm glad you asked it, but it's actually on my notes here. Um, one of the things that was very, very important to Bill is capturing the stories of World War II veterans. And I think he would extend that to atomic veterans, um uh Vietnam and and so forth and so on. Um that was that was very important to him. And to Bill, it didn't matter whether you were going to capture the story just for your family or for a bigger audience. Uh, but that that is what uh I think was behind is wanting to tell a story in Blue Jacket Odyssey. And we created a two-page download, it's on my website of how to research and write your military memoirs. And the tagline is um it helps to have a checklist. So, you know, it's it's it's a checklist of how to get started, the very first step, and you know, get the three-ring binder and the separators and things like that. It's just it's just literally step by step, and it's complimentary on my website at um uh mcgeebooks.com. And you can go there and and download it. But um, you know, I was fascinated by the podcast that Zach and Dennis did in March because I I almost wanted to start the research for Bill's military history all over again. Because I I I think, you know, since the internet, which is amazing, I think it's just become so much more streamlined to get information.
SPEAKER_05That's that's one of the things I wanted to ask a little earlier is how the the research gathering, how that occurred back then. I mean, I'm sure it was a lot of people.
SPEAKER_01And mail telephone mail. Bill got his in 1991 when one of the volunteers said, Why don't you write a book about the naval armed guard? Uh he literally, I don't know if he phoned, but he did write, because I typed the letters to uh the the records place. I forget where they are or were in the Midwest, but um that's where he wrote by mail. Where where is where were they located, Dennis? The or Zach, the one the place that burned down?
SPEAKER_04Oh, St. Louis.
SPEAKER_01Oh, St. Louis, okay.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. Yeah, what's really interesting, um, and and you never know what you're gonna get when you request records like that. I just randomly request from guys, and and sometimes I would get discouraged here lately, because you get records back and there's like six pages, and you know that there should be about a hundred, right? And you're really dependent on people that maybe are just punching in and punching out, and maybe they don't feel like scanning all of the pages into someone's file to send to you, and it really does come down to their integrity. But I keep doing it because of what happened yesterday. I got a packet in the mail from a UDT frogman, uh, team 14. And it just so happens that in there is a letter from the guy's senator, who he was at a party with the frogman who was home on leave, and he told the senator his entire story. And the senator wrote this story of essentially this guy and team 14 through the Pacific. And it's like two page, two and a half pages of history that I would never have had if I hadn't uh gleaned from Zach how to get these records and then taken the time to submit them. So it it that is another lesson on research is don't get discouraged, just keep plugging away because sometimes you're gonna get blanks, but you're gonna get those nuggets.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, what's interesting is um, and I've learned this. Um, I uh I belong to the National Association of Atomic Survival Atomic Veterans. Well, Bill belonged, and I've kept the membership up. And on their military records, and this includes Bill's, there's no mention of his service at Operation Crossroads. Um and uh uh that's apparently true with uh do you know why that is? I know that you know they had to sign secrecy.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. That's what my guess would have been, is is the secrecy of the matter. Like the the non the they weren't allowed to disclose it or talk about it. My guess is the top secret nature of that whole operation, you know, kind of like the Navajo Code Talkers is like they weren't allowed to talk because it was still classified even after, you know, they left the service.
SPEAKER_05And then by the time that it was declassified, the people who knew the names of those involved, that that paperwork was either never filed or long gone.
SPEAKER_01A lot of um children and grandchildren of atomic veterans are trying to get uh benefits because their father or grandfather passed away from you know diseases possibly caused by ionizing radiation. And these people can't prove that their relatives were at these uh, you know, various atomic tests because they're not on their records.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, that would just come down to being able to have a muster roll, which would show they were on a particular ship at that particular time if the ship was there. So it may not be in the service file, but if their name is on a muster roll showing that that they were there when the ship was there during the testing, that's that would probably help them.
SPEAKER_04That's a very good point. Yeah, that's a really good idea.
SPEAKER_05If you guys haven't seen it, go on YouTube because I don't have I don't remember all the details, but there's a very cool video talking about when we started doing the Manhattan Project, how a couple of engineers at Kodak Film figured out what was going on because of the amount of fallout in the atmosphere it was affecting the Kodak film in their manufacturing plants on the east coast. The they were they were pee uh they were getting film canisters back, like you sold us exposed film, and they're like, There's no way. And the engineers figured out there's a whole YouTube video on it, how Kodak messaged the government, they figured out what was going on because of the the levels of um fallout in the atmosphere was actually affecting the negatives in the film and the photo paper and the Kodak manufacturing plants. It's in it's crazy.
SPEAKER_01Where is the fallout coming from?
SPEAKER_05Well, it's it's just from the atmospheric test that they were doing in the early days, like just the the smallest minute um effect. And I've also seen a video that shows there's a clear, like um when anthropologists and scientists look at human bones and human remains, there's a clear timeline of the human genetic makeup before the nuclear program and after. That basically anyone born after the nuclear program, our DNA shows you know, there's we have a different DNA and just even pollutants in our bones and our skin from pre-nuclear program to after. Like you there's a clear defined in our DNA just from all the atmospheric um pollution and water pollution just around the planet. Wow.
SPEAKER_04That's really interesting you bring that up, Don, because I had a college professor. Shout out to Ralph Taggart, an evolution class, who actually talked about the fact that like not only is it film, but it's like we can't even take accurate measurements of pre-nuclear days in the atmosphere because of the effects of all of the nuclear tests that we've conducted. It's like now it's shifted almost mathematics, where it's like we can't take measurements the way we used to, or at least like the benchmark or the baseline we used to have for the atmosphere, it's it's been like you said, it's been ionized too many times. Like it's like not even measurements now are off. It's human DNA, it's almost sky DNA, if you will. Like it's like the the parts that make up the sky. It's it's it's just it's fascinating what what the atomic weapons have done, the effects they've had.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and there was a period of time where it was just like between Russia and the United States, it was just hey, atmospheric sub, you know, that we're just deading off wherever we could, and just finally at a certain point, okay, we need to we need to calm down on this stuff because we are seeing some fallout from it. But um, thank you guys so much. That's gonna wrap up this episode of the What's the ScuttleBut Podcast. As always, head over to WTSPworldwar 2.com. You on the homepage when we publish this episode on the audio format, you can see the link, and we'll have a link on the website to all the uh important places to go to get books, Amazon and obviously m uh McGee Books.com for myself, Dennis, Zach, and uh Miss Sandra McGee.
SPEAKER_00This has been a digital four tin production.