Grief, Death, and Finding Hope After Losing a Friend

In this episode of Call Him Father, Micah and Pastor Taylor have an honest conversation about grief, death, loss, heaven, hell, suffering, and the hope Christians have in Jesus.

Recorded shortly after Micah lost a close friend in a sudden car crash, this conversation explores what it means to grieve as a Christian, how to process death, what hope looks like in the middle of pain, and why the gospel matters when life feels fragile.

They talk about why death feels so wrong, how Christians should think about heaven and hell, what to say to grieving friends, why truth matters in the middle of suffering, and how Jesus offers real hope without pretending pain is not real.

Call Him Father is a podcast tackling hard questions about faith, life, and following Jesus in a modern world.

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Transcript

Intro

SPEAKER_00 0:04

How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 0:05

I'm doing okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Yeah, as good as I can.

SPEAKER_05 0:08

You've had a couple weeks here. Yeah. Let's talk about it. Yep. What's been going on in your life? You've been through some stuff here.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

So I guess two weeks ago today, uh, one of my best friends passed away in a car crash. Um very suddenly. It's actually literally the the night of us recording this, the first episode of this. So

Losing a close friend

SPEAKER_00 0:36

it's just been like it kind of a blur. I don't know. Like I haven't really lost anyone super close or like suddenly like that. Like I lost my grandpa, but you know, you know it's a bit different. Yeah, like you know it's coming, and with this, it's just like it's weird, it's really just a weird feeling.

SPEAKER_05 1:04

What's weird about it?

SPEAKER_00 1:07

I guess it's just like you'd someone tells you, hey, they're dead, and then like that's kind of it.

SPEAKER_05 1:13

What did you find out?

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Um, so Emma and I, my wife and I went into the town over to she was going to the gym, I was going on a run. I had a friend text me in the morning um saying, Hey, can we call? But I like do work with him and stuff, so I thought it was just like a work thing. So I was like, I'm just gonna do my run and then I'll call him after. Um and we were stopping at the gas station and we were checking out, and um I open up like our group chat on my phone, and there's like this screenshot from one of Dylan's sisters, and it's like this whole like memorial kind of post, like just talking like really weird, like I can't believe you're gone. Like, and then we're like just really confused. Um and at first I'm like, oh, like her account got hacked or something, you know. Um and so I get in the car and I kind of start reading it, and Emma's like she's like, What's what's going on? And I'm like, I just continue to read it and not really say anything because I was just like super confused. And um then I show her the post and I go back to Facebook and I I see it a post from his other sister, like just saying, like, I can't believe this is happening, like this isn't real, this isn't real. And I'm like, bro, what is going on? Um, and then I kind of put it together, I'm like, oh no, that's why Caleb wanted to call me. So I call Caleb, he tells me that he had passed away that previous night. And um, I guess Emma and I just kind of start crying, and it's just like weird.

SPEAKER_05 3:09

Tell me what was going through your mind when all of that you realized that your friend was dead.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:17

That is a horrible thing to realize. I'm so sorry. It's devastating. Life is so crazy because it's like what can happen is you just you wake up one day thinking everything's cool, normal. You go throughout the day and you have no idea that you are about to get totally life-altering news. Yeah. The more days that I've had like this, it's like that's the common theme is you just think that everything's fine, normal. Yeah, no, it's not. And then we do a hard pivot and you get a call that you never expected, yeah, or you find something out that you never expected. What was going through your mind, man, when you realized what was going on?

SPEAKER_00 3:58

I guess the first thing is like denial, confusion, um, hurt. Um and I just wanted like, I guess I wanted answers at first. Um, I'm like I wanted to know what happened. Um you know, if we could still see him, all that stuff. And it was just weird. I had like a a whole, you know, I had a whole date planned. Like I was gonna work all Saturday at a whole to-do list. And then I like nothing mattered after that. Like none of that stuff mattered to me. Like it was just now this is like going and taking care of his family and his friends is like the most important thing and just grieving with them is like the number one thing. And so we had some friends meet us back at at home. And I guess on the drive home it was like you just keep thinking of ways where it's just gonna hurt more. Like you keep thinking about like, oh no, like when this person is super connected in your life, it's like, oh no, this is gonna really hurt this person, like oh no, we have to tell this person. And it's like every five minutes that you just think of something where it's like just gonna be heartbreaking for whoever.

The first days of grief

SPEAKER_00 5:33

And that was definitely really tough. Um but yeah, then we ended up going to his sister's place and meeting his family there and stuff and just being with them.

unknown 5:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:52

What's the journey been like since so you're a couple weeks in? It's a lot of time to think.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

Yeah. I It definitely kind of turned everything upside down. I didn't go to work the first two days. And then it was you know, Wednesday and then it was Thanksgiving, so luckily we already had a three-day week. Um But it was just like it's it was just kind of the days were kind of blurry. Like it there were days when I felt like just motivated to keep going. Like I felt like what the enemy made for evil will be turned for good, and then the next day it could just totally be like I don't want to get out of bed, but I have to. And it's just weird how it can just like flip-flop really easily. Like I just feel very like Yeah. Not grounded.

SPEAKER_05 7:01

I don't know if that's the So with grief, one thing that I've noticed as a pastor over the last however many years is that's a very normal normative experience. And when I've worked with people going through difficult stuff, one of the illustrations that I use is like it grief is like you're standing before an ocean. Yeah. And sometimes the waves kind of lap up at your ankles and it's there, and you feel it. Sometimes it kind of jumps up to your knees, your waist, and you can kind of start to feel the pull of it pulling you out into more of an overwhelming experience. And then sometimes the current just hits right and you get sucked into an aggressive swirl of I am under water on this thing, and I don't know which way is up. You're being tossed and turned and banged around on stuff, and eventually it subsides and it throws you up back on the beach, only to experience that over and over again. And and and there is a spectrum of experience concerning grief, and it it and that's a part of the the um confusion of it because it's such a horrible loss, yeah. And sometimes it it's not it doesn't feel as overwhelming, which can be confusing for people, where it's like, why am I just kind of numb to this right now? Um, and then other times it's just you you lose all sense of grounding, yeah, and you're just being thrown around by the thing. Yeah, and it sucks and it's painful, it's hurtful, it's confusing.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

Emma and I were saying that it doesn't feel like how we thought it would feel.

SPEAKER_05 8:55

What feels different about it? That's an interesting thing to say.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

I guess I I thought it would be you know, everything's just all I thought it would just be like I would just spiral. Um but there's a few things that are weird to me. It's like the idea that life just kinda has to keep going forward, and there's not like a you get like, you know, a few weeks off. Like it's

Why grief feels confusing

SPEAKER_00 9:26

just just you just keep going. And then there are moments we've had this past week of just like joy um and just gratitude for the time we did get to spend with him. Um But I I don't know. I don't know what I thought it would just kind of be all sad. And it is, you know, mostly all sad. But it's like it it feels like there's been like a lot of like dissociation with it, like a lot of confusion and just like not really sure what to do, a lot of restlessness. That was like the main feeling I felt like the first week was like I couldn't find peace really anywhere. And it almost kind of made me like push away from God, like it made me like mad or frustrated, and it just felt like nothing could bring me like the peace that I was looking for, like it felt like I wanted him to walk in the room or something, or I was waiting for that, but I knew that was like never gonna happen. And it was like weird because it was Thanksgiving, so it's like you have the classic holiday traditions of comfort activities, um, being at home and just kind of eating food and hanging out with family, having sweet treats, but it was like none of that you could do as much of that as you wanted, but it's like I'm I just have this underlying sense of unrest. And I always heard the whole thing about you know, it's easy to walk in faith when things are going bad because you need him, but then when things are good, it's easy to get complacent, and I feel like for me it's been like kind of the opposite of that. Um it's just been like hard to I don't know, be like really intentional with my time. Like it's felt like I've kind of had to rebuild back up, like I'm reintroducing things back into my schedule. Um but I was like it felt like I got taken from like 95% with you know drive and

Feeling restless after loss

SPEAKER_00 12:05

motivation down to like 10. And now it's like we're kind of building back up. But it's a weird, weird feeling. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_05 12:20

So the restlessness that you felt, the I mean would you would would it be fair to say that you that I think you actually said this that you were frustrated with God or angry with God or um uh l looking for Jesus basically to walk in the room and do something, and then he didn't, and you knew that it wasn't gonna do that.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

Yeah, I guess it was more like waiting for Dylan to walk in the room. Like we kept kind of having a feeling of like, oh, like it's gonna be. I don't know. It's like a very like and I know that's not gonna happen, right? But it's like I that's what it that's what feels like would bring me comfort in that moment. It's like knowing that Dylan's okay. And it's I don't know if there's I don't know. I don't know how to describe it fully, but it's like frustrating knowing that that's not like ever gonna happen.

SPEAKER_05 13:18

I get that, man. I mean you lose somebody and the thing that makes it all go away is if you get done back.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:24

I think that's a normal thing to feel. I get that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

Just weird how it all works. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_05 13:36

Death is not good. So we're where um what has the journey I care the most about the journey with God through moments like this. Yeah. Secularism doesn't have any answers, there's no hope. You are not getting your friend back. Yeah. On humanism, on secularism, there is no redemption in this level of suffering, there's no hope beyond this level of suffering. Yeah, your friend is deleted from the human experience and you can carry memories with him, but there's no redemptive good whatsoever. It's just nothing, and it's only a matter of time before you end up where he is. Right. So that's why I would say that if you are gonna be an atheist, which you're not, but for the atheist, I think that the only thing that makes sense is a nihilistic worldview of like there's no meaning. You go through something like this, it's like, what's well, what's the hope? Like everything, everything and everyone that you've ever loved, you are going to lose in the end. Yep. Like, there's no I've never done a funeral or seen a funeral with a U-Haul there. It's like you're when you're done, you're done. Yeah, it's lights out on the atheistic worldview, there's nothing beyond this life. Um, and so therefore, what is the ultimate purpose and meaning if the human experience is just destined to total annihilation and nothingness? Elon Musk isn't gonna save us, right? With like the rockets to Mars, like turns out uh the universe is winding down, not up, um, and it is gonna end, whether the big freeze or whatever. So as a Christian, Micah, um, very normal. Like it and part, that's part of what I what I would what I want to normalize for people is like, look, when you're going through loss, um, it is perfectly normal to get mad at God. It's perfectly normal to get frustrated at God. It's perfectly normal. I'm not saying that that's the right thing, I'm saying that's a human response thing to begin to distance yourself from God, that restless ache that you're you're you're talking about. Um that's all totally normal stuff. I care about what people do with it. I care about where people go with it. Yeah, I'm not concerned about the experience of those things in your heart and in your mind. I care about what you do with it and where you take it. Yeah. So talk to me about the journey with Jesus the last couple weeks. Are you as restless as you were? I wouldn't say as restless, no. But I think talk to me about the God journey the last couple weeks, man. Because this is where for people that may be listening, yeah. Um we need to understand just because you're a Christian, it doesn't mean that you're not gonna have bad days. Right. Just because you're a Christian, it doesn't mean that you're not gonna suffer. Just because you're a Christian, it doesn't mean that you are not gonna shed tears and lose people. And like it doesn't mean that, like, okay, uh, I get to pray and God's gonna take all of my problems away. We worship a guy as God who suffered a murderous, barbarous, torturous death on a cross, like he died. Uh um and Jesus promises difficulty and adversity and suffering in this world, you will have trouble. Nobody ever claims that one in their promise book. You know, like nobody wakes up like I'm excited to suffer today. Nobody does that. And yet we know that this is a part of living and lived experience. Um,

Walking through suffering with Jesus

SPEAKER_05 17:21

and so what has it been like for you walking the suffering path with Jesus the last two weeks? I want to hear about that.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

Yeah. Um I guess like frustrating the first word that comes to mind. Um I think the push and pull that it causes with marriage of like, you know, it's either gonna bring you guys closer or separate you guys, like we were talking about. Um feeling that and but I feel like it's also put like a fire under my feet of like being less complacent with the people in my life where it's like I know I should be doing more or like being able to reach them. Um and I guess it's made me like wonder what what more could I have done to you know help Dylan have a relationship with God. Um I guess that's that's been a hard thing to wrestle with. Because he just he had a hard upbringing. Like he was dealt not a great hand. And I guess like the the feeling I've had is like why like those people didn't, you know, he didn't ask to be brought here, like brought to earth. So like why would he like the salvation side, like why would he have to suffer just for not walking in faith? I don't know how to I guess I've just been I've been struggling with the salvation stuff.

SPEAKER_05 19:34

Like why did God make him if he was just gonna die and not be saved?

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Yeah. Or not just that, but like if people you know, people don't really sign up for this, and so you think about like hell as like eternal separation from God. I guess I've been thinking a lot about like the salvation stuff, like heaven and hell, like what does that look like? And I know there's a lot of ambi ambiguity there, and I think it's you think there's ambiguity on the Christian doctrine of hell? Not well I mean like we don't know exactly what's like what happens after we die, like no one knows exactly, right? Would you say that's true?

SPEAKER_05 20:21

I think that you can have a lot of certainty theologically what happens after people die, yeah. What do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_00 20:27

Like what would you say certainly h like is there is there like a holding period, you know? I've what would you say happens certainly?

SPEAKER_05 20:38

Like a purgatory sort of a thing?

SPEAKER_00 20:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:41

So that that that would be kind of like a Catholic doctrine, yeah. Of you know, like you die and then the Catholic Christian essentially, um, if they're not ready to go straight to eternal life with Jesus because they need sort of a more like a like a deeper purification process, they'll go to they'll go to purgatory so that they can, you know. I went to a uh my my grandma, my great grandma was a staunch Catholic. So I'm a Protestant pastor. And um, when she died, she was so Catholic. She didn't want me to do anything at her funeral because she thought I was gonna mess her up. And so the Catholic priest had to do it. And there was this part in the ceremony where the priest was basically like, hey, okay, so now what we're gonna do is we're gonna we're gonna pray for Angie, was her name. Um, this idea of the intercession for the dead, and how he explained it was like, uh, and this is straight up here in Bellingham, what he articulated was like sometimes there's a middle place between this life and life with God forever, where people get stuck, is what he said. Yeah. And so We want to help her along that journey by our prayers, by our intercession. And so he was just like, We're going to take a couple minutes and ask that God is merciful to her and gets her through purgatory essentially. And what I appreciated about this was the deep care and concern for my great grandma. And there was actually some old, epic, charismatic Catholic grandmas behind me that didn't know my grandma, but they were weeping as they were praying. And I respect that and I appreciate that because there's this deep care and concern about the souls of people and a willingness to shed tears over it. This isn't, dude, this isn't like this is life and death stuff. Like the gospel isn't like, hey, believe in Jesus and you get God as this cool little mascot that you put on your dashboard, you hit on the head as a bobblehead whenever you're having a bad day and you need to smile. It's like this is no, you need to be saved. I need to be saved. This idea of salvation. Saved from what? A part of it certainly is eternal separation from God. Like that is clear, this is Matthew, I believe it's 25, where Jesus talks about the judgment of the great day, where there's a separation of human beings into eternal separation from God and into eternal life with God. And what you do with the person in the work of Christ Jesus makes all of the difference. And so the this idea of the getting stuck or the middle ground, or you know, do you go to kind of a holding tank? I do think that it's a it's a Catholic accretion um error that I don't see in the scripture. What I see is Hebrews say it's appointed man wants to die and then the judgment. Um and so as Christians, we've got we we we need to square off with that. Like um, this is serious. We live in a culture, Micah, where it's like we want to avoid discomfort and we want to avoid intense stuff. Yeah. Um, and we want to immediately because we're so comfort obsessed. So whenever we get uncomfortable, the first thing that we want to do, which is a natural human response. This isn't just like a Western US thing. We want to scrape for comfort, we want to go for comfort. Um, but as a pastor, my job is to be faithful

Heaven, hell, and hard truths

SPEAKER_05 24:18

to the biblical text. Right. And uh I don't necessarily I don't want to give myself that out to follow the visceral emotional response and try to like emote away the doctrine of hell and judgment. Yeah. I think that it's serious, I think that it's real, I think that we have a pacified, hyper feminine, maternal vision of God, and we have uh like cut him off from his nature as judge. Um and the truth is, is if someone's going to live their life in total outright rebellion against God, um and he is a gracious, kind, loving, merciful God who pursues us even in the midst of that rebellion, over and over and over and repeatedly again throughout a life, C. S. Lewis says it this way that there are two kinds of people in the world, those to whom say to God, Thy will be done, and those to whom God says to them, Thy will be done. Um, so it's this idea that God is a respecter of free will. So if I live my life totally rejecting God's kindness to me in Christ, um, and God's goodness to me and how he's pursued me through common graces, like my conscience that convicts me of my own error and sin and fallenness, the creation. When I look at this and I behold God's majesty, uh and I look up at the expanse of the sky or I fly and I look at the earth from you know tens of thousands of feet up, I see the Grand Canyon. And if I'm gonna look at these things, I'm gonna look at the human body, I'm gonna reject the creator, um, and I'm not going to uh uh soften my heart to a serious wrestle with the questions of God and seek him with the whole heart and figure out what I think about this Christianity stuff and reject it, then yes, in the end, God will give you what you want, which is eternal separation from him. So that's brutal, that's intense. Yeah, that is the Christian Orthodox historic position on hell. Um there's a position called universalism that would say God redeems all people and everybody gets saved in the end. Origen was a church father that had that view, and he came underneath some scrutiny and some pushback, rightfully so, from uh the the church fathers. It was a minority view. You can only find a couple people around him that held it, and uh, the historic church has held to a uh eternal separation from God, that hell is eternal and it's irreversible. And um so we need to square off with that, and I don't want to essentially take the offensive parts of Christianity and get rid of them for the sake of just comforting somebody. Because comfort can be a broad path that leads straight to hell. Yeah. Which is not a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

What do you say to like I guess what I've heard a lot of the past week is like we'll get to see him again someday.

SPEAKER_05 27:40

So here's what non-religious people do, because they they they don't understand that they have a hypocritical worldview, is they borrow from religion when bad stuff happens. Yeah. Which I think is very disingenuous, it's very dishonest. It's like the people on Facebook that are like, hey, you know, sending you happy thoughts, good vibes and prayers. Yeah. What the crap does that even mean? That is useless. You think that your like good vibes are like gonna come through my computer screen and make me feel better about the fact that I just lost my friend? Like you're an idiot. No, I don't want that. Prayers, praying to who? Praying to what? Like, who are you praying? You're gonna see him when you and what's ironic to me, man, is the secular person who will say something like that who doesn't know what they believe about the afterlife. So this is where I I like I want to challenge that person and say, Well, we're gonna see him again. Okay, well, how do you know that, bro? How do you know that? Yeah, how do you know or people that like will say, Well, at least he's not suffering, at least he's never gonna suffer again. Number one, that's completely insensitive. How dare somebody say that? Like, and that that shows our immaturity with our relationship with death. Yeah, um, no, this is horrible. And we can talk about this. Christianity, I think, is one thing that I love about it is it actually gives you the tools and the framework to be intellectually honest and consistent and hate death and not like it because God hates death. And so if God hates death and if he came to solve the death problem, then I can hate death and it's perfectly right and good. But for the secular person that's gonna be like, Oh, you're gonna see him again, no big deal. That's really what they're saying. They downplay it. No, you can't downplay this. Christianity doesn't downplay it. That's why Christianity, again, it's better. Yeah, because it says, no, this is horrible. This is the great evil. It's not just, oh, we're gonna see him again, so take that comfort and move on. No, that's not what's going on here. And also, that is a metaphysical face statement about what happens when you die. How do you know that you're gonna see him? What what what can you appeal to? Your kind of weird, syncretistic, amalgamated worldview that's based on some weird form of like Eastern New Age religion and Christianity, it's

How Christians grieve differently

SPEAKER_05 29:48

contradictory, it doesn't make sense. Like, what can you actually appeal to? How do you know that? How do you know that you are gonna see this person when you die? That's what I want to say. Yeah. Um, for the follower of Jesus, this is where Paul says, look, if you if if somebody dies as a follower of Christ, really what they're doing is they're just changing locations. Um you go from life to life. Like death is a gate that you pass through to be with Christ forever. Scripture says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Yeah, that's amazing. So again, Paul's theology on suffering is like I want you guys to recognize that like we're gonna mourn because death sucks. Yeah, the loss of a believer, we're gonna mourn that. Um, but we're not gonna mourn like those who don't have hope. And that's where I want to say the non-Christian, um, when they're trying to mourn with hope, they're borrowing from religion. And it's disingenuous and it's dishonest. And I understand why they're doing that to try to alleviate their own discomfort with the reality of death. And that's where I want to, as a gift of grace to this person, not give them the opportunity to do it, help them realize that they're being disingenuous and dishonest with themselves, and and affirm that what they're feeling is meant to draw them to Christ, who did solve the problem of death. So there's a reason why we feel that way of like, man, I I just lost this person, is and everything in me is telling me that this is final, and yet I do seem to have a hope. And the question is, where did that come from? And the Christian answer is God put that, that's his thumbprint on your conscience, on your desire, on your heart. Yeah. Uh that that's meant to draw you onto him and the person in the work of Christ who actually deals finally with death in the end and solves the problem of death. He is the answer to it.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

I definitely like the the part about how it's like you have to feel that discomfort, like it's there for a reason. And it's it is interesting how people are like yeah, straight up taking things from a religion they don't actually believe in. Um just to comfort themselves in this situation. And it's just I don't know, it's hard to respond to it, especially like when you're in it, you know. Like from a like I know that's truth. But it's like I guess it feels like highly offensive. Which I guess it is. Um but it's just it's hard to like what's offensive about it? I don't know, I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 32:41

I mean I can tell you what's offensive about it because I've had the offense that's pass through my own soul. But for you, when you when you hear when you hear these things, yeah, what's offensive? I guess. Or what do you think would be offensive to a person who doesn't share the worldview that you do?

SPEAKER_00 32:56

Sure. Um I guess to the unbeliever I would be thinking like this guy saying these things he doesn't care about. Dylan Dylan dying, he doesn't care about. Um he's he's more worried about this than him being in a better place. Um But I think that just comes from people wanting to just come for other people. You said you felt the offense, what would you or you felt it before? What what do you think?

SPEAKER_05 33:45

Well, I mean yeah, it's offensive to think because everything in our culture sets us up to be our own sense of authority and the scripture comes along and says, No, you're not. Like you are not the end all being in the universe. Like God exists and he created you and you're accountable to him. Yeah. I saw this like this this uh TikTok pastor, be careful who you follow online, folks. And uh his definition of sin is it was basically um sin is that which harms ourselves, others in creation, and that's how he defined it. Um sounds good, right? Like if somebody hears that, it's like, oh yeah, that that makes sense to me. That makes here's the problem with that. That's not the biblical vision of sin. It's not just that which causes harm to myself, others, and to creation. Uh, that can be a part of it, but that's too subjective. What does harm even mean? Who gets to define harm? I think a better definition, so it's totally subjective. Uh, what I think the biblical vision of sin is is that no, God exists and there's something in me that rejects him and wants to prefer myself as the source of truth, of morality, yeah, of justice, that I want to be my own authority, this idea of lordship. Like, I don't want to give lordship to Christ. I want to be my own God, I want to be my own Lord, I want to think my own thoughts, I want to um live my own life, and I don't want to do that. It it I don't want to give those areas of my soul over to Jesus Christ and submit my life to him. So yeah, sin is more fundamentally about how I have rejected the God of the universe, and he is a judge, and he's right to judge. It's a point of man wants to die, and then uh the judgment, Jesus is coming back, not as a lamb, but as a lion. His robe is gonna be dipped with blood. Uh, the biblical narrative from cover to cover talks about this idea of the day of the Lord, like Jesus is coming back to judge the living and the dead. Um He the first century Jews, they expected this like Davidic type warrior king that was gonna show up and overthrow the Roman Empire by force, was gonna be like a zealot type uh at the tip of the sword overhaul and establish

Why truth matters when talking about death

SPEAKER_05 36:11

the sovereignty of the Jewish nation. And yet that's not how Jesus Christ brings his kingdom to the earth. It's through suffering, it's through crucifixion, it's through death that he's exalted. And when he comes back again and Jesus hastened the day, uh he's coming with a sword in his mouth and he will strike down the nations like it's going to happen. So it's it it because I care so deeply about people, I'm cool with offending them into realizing that this is the the character and the nature of God. The classic illustration, dude, is this it's like um uh if if somebody if somebody is in a building that's on fire and it's about to fall down and there's people that don't know about it on the inside, it's not loving to not tell them about it. In fact, I heard this story by Penn and Teller. Do you know them? This kind of my generation, you young guy. Um, he uh they're magicians, kind of famous magicians, and there was this one dude that came up to them after the show and was like, handed him a Bible. He's an atheist guy. I don't remember which one. It was either Penn or Teller, obviously, uh the larger dude, whoever that guy is. And this guy came up to him and uh was like, hey, I pray for you all of the time. You need to know Jesus. Here's a Bible, here's the gospel. Uh God sent Jesus to live the perfect life that you couldn't die, the death that you deserve. He rose to life three days later, ascended to heaven. He's coming back to judge the living and the dead, and you can't earn your way to God. Only Jesus can do that for you by giving you his righteousness as a gift of grace, and you need to repent of sin and surrender your life to Christ. And uh um, or else you live eternally without God forever. And uh I don't I don't want that for you. And usually people get offended by that, but he was so moved by that experience because he was like, you know what, if all of these Christians are gonna freaking believe this stuff and they're not gonna tell me about it, what kind of unloving person do you have to be to hold that in? Like if you really believe that not like somebody's 80 years is dependent on what they do with Jesus, sure, but the next 80 million, like if you're gonna believe this stuff and you're not gonna talk about it and you're not gonna warn and you're not gonna lovingly call people to Christ, like you don't love people. Don't tell me that you love people. So, bro, it's unloving to not tell people the truth for the sake of like, you know, I just don't want to offend anybody, or that's a harmful idea. You know what's harmful? It's theology that puts people in hell. That's what's harmful. And uh and this is and this is also something that's you know, people can say that pastors or Christians are insensitive, and that's just total BS for a number of reasons, like I just talked about. Also, this is real for me. I got relatives that I don't know where they're at, man. Yeah, I got friends that I don't know where they're at. My one of the most formative moments of my life was I was in the fire service for six years. You know the story, I think. Do you know the story?

SPEAKER_01 38:58

Please.

SPEAKER_05 38:59

And uh I uh I got called out one night and um head-on collision on the guide meridian just up the road. I drive by it every single day. Um and my one of my best friends from high school was in a head-on collision on the guide meridian. And uh, I show up, I can still see it, dude, as clear as day. I can see his car hood bashed in. I can hear the the beeping of the horn that's non-stop and incessant. It's going in the background. I can see the bubbling of the radiator fluid on the engine block. I can smell the smells of the grinded metal. I can smell the oil. I can I can see the windshield bashed in and my friend's dead body on the other end of that steering wheel with his forehead bashed in and the cerebral spinal fluid coming out of his nose because of the blunt force trauma to his face. I remember I was assigned to basically cut his body out of the car. And so we get the they call the jaws of life, get up, pop the door open, open it up. He's totally mangled, his body is broken in hundreds of different places. I mean, it's like it's amazing what happens to a human body. 50 mile an hour impact, 50 miles an hour this way, 50 miles this way, and the impact of that, it's amazing what happens. And uh, so we cut him out, cut the seatbelt off. He was holding his home phone in his left hand and it buzzed, and it was his fiance asking where he was and when he was gonna be there. And I realized in that moment I'm the only person in the world that knows this guy's dead right now.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:34

Cut him out, I get my hands on him, bring him over to the tarp, lay him on the side of the guide meridian, pull his wallet out of his pocket, ID him, and uh that was a wild moment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Because did you recognize him before or no?

SPEAKER_05 40:52

Uh his he was so mangled, I did not. Um, and the the I remember, dude, we were in a city park. The first memory that came through my mind, as I'm sure you've experienced this with your friend, you're running through all the things, uh, was we were in a city park and we were smoking cigarettes. It's like juniors in high school, sophomore junior year. And uh we're chilling, we're hanging out, and then all of a sudden this flashlight hits us. It's a cop, and he's coming up to us. I'm like, oh crap, like we gotta run. And he's like, No, just chill. So we put up, I throw my cigarette down, and he just keeps smoking. And uh the cop's like, hey guys, let me see your IDs. And then, anyways, he's like, I'm gonna write you an MIP, or you can call your mom. And so we had to call our parents who came to pick us up. And uh, anyways, I'm having those, and I didn't get an MIP, praise God. Um, and neither did he, which was awesome. But I'm having those memories go through my mind, man. Like, I remember these moments with this dude, and uh I I don't know where he was at with God.

SPEAKER_01 41:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:00

And that was that was a transformative moment for me because I'm like, okay, well, what am I gonna believe am I gonna believe Jesus or not?

SPEAKER_01 42:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:08

Like, am I gonna do the the am I gonna dumb the gospel down to the level of my offense and and or

Trusting Scripture over emotion

SPEAKER_05 42:15

or am I gonna let Jesus be God and the scriptures be true and adjust my life to the theology of the Bible, to the to the the vision of truth and reality that Christ has? Or or do I want to call him a liar and opt into my own weird vision of life and death and life after death? And that was a formative moment for me, and that was a key moment that brought me to where I am because I realized that, like, dude, tomorrow's not promised. Ecclesiastes talks about how life is a vapor, it's a breath. It's like you go out on a cold day, hebel hebel is the word in in Hebrew, and it's like a cold day. You breathe and you can see the vapor of your breath, and then it's gone. That's your life and that's mine. We got 15 minutes, dude. And what you do with Christ dictates where you go forever. So the this idea of like life and death and life after death, judgment, salvation, Christ as the answer. At the end of the day, nothing matters. That's the whole point of the wisdom literature and the Bible ecclesiastes in particular. It's like, dude, you you can make all the money you want, have all the sex that you want, do all the stuff that you want, and you're still gonna die and you're gonna stand before God. And the only thing that matters is what did you do with the person in the work of Jesus? Yeah. Because you can't save yourself, it's not your goodness. Here's the other thing the what offended me about hell and judgment and like what where's my buddy? What happened to him, where he where's he at? A few things. Number one, we never know what God is up to in people's lives the days and weeks before they die. So you don't know what what God was doing, even at the moment of your friend's death, man, you don't know. Yeah, and I know he had some formative moments with Jesus and in in church environments, and and you don't know what was happening in his heart before God and the kind of work that the Spirit was up to. Yeah. So the truth is we don't know where he's at and what that moment on the other end of his death was. And I want to hope with you that um he's with Jesus. Uh we don't know. And uh I I want to take that unknowing and I want to translate that to submissional urgency to the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of people that die around us every single day. Uh hundreds in in our city and region who don't know Jesus. Yeah and um Jesus was so passionate about lost people that he shed blood for them. And so I want to be willing to shed a little bit of reputation and comfort um because I care about people and I care about where people spend forever. And uh Jesus is on mission to see them not go to hell and experience his heaven, and so I want to join him in what he's doing. Yeah, so we don't know what happened in the minutes, days, and weeks leading up to that person's death. Number two, we got to keep in mind God's nature and character is revealed in the Bible. Ezekiel, 1 Timothy, other scriptures say God doesn't want any to perish but for all to come to a saving knowledge of the truth. Yeah, God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. So you have to hold that intention with God hates death. That is the point of the gospel, is to solve the problem of death. So to put God on blast for like a problem that wasn't his, but that he was willing to solve for us, I think is totally ridiculous. And also, Jesus came to save people, not to judge and condemn them. Yeah, and if someone's gonna live their life rejecting Christ, then he will give them what they want in the end. And the only thing that makes sense is like well, it doesn't make sense, honestly. When when you're gonna hear this, there's life, there's death, there's judgment, there's salvation. Christ is the answer. It's not a gospel of works. Jesus did all of the working, and if someone's gonna reject that, then the only thing that I can appeal to and make sense of is just the folly and the foolishness of that person. This is like this is like God saying, I love you so much, I'm gonna put up the life of my son. Jesus saying, Yeah, I love you so much, I'm gonna put up my life, I'm gonna live, I'm gonna die, I'm gonna rise because of my great love for you. Um, it wasn't his sin that he was crucified for, it was mine. And uh he paid the penalty for my sin, died as my substitute because the wages of my sin is death. So that God can be just. There's justice as Jesus dies on the cross because so there is a death, and he can be loving

Salvation by grace through faith

SPEAKER_05 46:41

and he can credit his righteousness to me as a gift of grace. If I'm gonna reject that, the only thing that makes sense is I'm a total fool, dude. I'm a total fool. Um, that is the greatest gift and offer of kindness that anybody has ever extended to me.

SPEAKER_00 46:56

Yeah. For salvation. What's like what would you say are the requirements for that?

SPEAKER_05 47:12

Like that's a great question. Let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

Yeah. Because I I think about like where he would have been at, and and uh he used to come to church with us and stuff, and he at least had interest in it, and I'm like curious if he ever did, you know. There's those prayers where like you invite the Holy Spirit in, right? Um and is that I know that's not just it, like it's like walking with him and following his word. But it's like where's the line on that? Because I know we're all still sinful. Like I if I look back like three years ago, if you had looked at my life, like I was still a professing believer, but I wouldn't say that I wasn't living above reproach.

SPEAKER_05 48:04

So Christianity is a religion of faith, not of works. Meaning Jesus, okay, John 3, you know, Timothy Bo 316. What up? Um for God so loved the world that he gave his only son, so that whoever works really hard for their salvation shall not perish but have everlasting life. Right? No, that's not what it says. For God so loved the world, he gave his only son so that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. Yeah. So it's not a works-based thing, it's a faith-based thing. Right. Um, John 1, uh, whoever believed in him, who believed in Jesus, who but who received Jesus, believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. It's nothing about working for your salvation there. Uh, Paul, the book of Ephesians, Galatians, I mean, over and over and over again, dude, we have this mega theme of like you are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, not by your own works, so that nobody should boast, would be able to boast, uh, but as a sheer gift of grace. Like this is a this is a system of grace that is actuated and becomes real in your life through faith and through receiving, um, which is amazing, and it also requires a lot of humility because it requires me saying I can't save myself. So that's where people will be like, you know, Christianity is the easiest religion, all you have to do is believe. And I actually think it's the most difficult because it requires humility. Because the first thing you have to do is you have to confess that like I'm not the solution to all of my problems. Yeah, I'm like the problem. I like I have responsibility there. Um, like it's it's my I I'm a sinner. I need a savior. I can't save myself. Uh no amount of good works that I could do would be enough to get God to owe me salvation. Um and and and because we think wrong about this stuff, we we we like people. Well, okay, so he so here's here's the example. Um, yeah, I'm a pretty good person. Have you ever heard this before? I'm a pretty good person. If God exists, I'm sure that'll let me in one day. You know, like I've I look at my life and I look at bad people and I'm not to that zone. I've never like murdered anybody like Hitler or like a Stalin or a communist regime or you know, like a uh Jeffrey Dahmer, serial killer, rapist, dismember, you know, he dismembers bodies and whatever craziness. I've never done anything like that. So therefore I'm pretty good. And if God exists, I'm sure he'll let me in one day. Here's the problem, dude, with that idea. The problem is that you're measuring yourself uh next to human beings. And so, sure, to Hitler, you might not look that bad, but Hitler's not the standard for you. It's God's holiness and moral perfection. Yeah, that's the standard. And so this is why Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount, unless your righteousness exceeds the scribes of the Pharisees, you're never gonna inherit the kingdom of God. And he's and these are the most religious, like ascetic, self-denial people who have ever lived in the history of the world. Like they're so religious, they take all of six the 613 commands of the Old Testament, and uh they do them all. And they also are like, you know, we're so religious, we're gonna make up a bunch more commandments, and uh, we're gonna do all of those also. Um, very religious, very strict, very finger quotes, righteous. And Jesus is like, yeah, they're screwed also. And so that means that you and I are really screwed because we're not that at all, anywhere close to that. And Jesus isn't saying that, bro. So we try harder to earn our salvation. That's the whole point of the Sermon on the Mount. Um, that's why he says in Matthew 5, verse 3, the first thing is, uh, blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom. That's how you get the kingdom, dude. It's poverty of spirit. It's not coming and like, hey, you know what? I'm not not too bad. You know, God's gonna let me in and no big deal. Those aren't the people that get the kingdom. It's the poor in spirit, it's the spiritual beggar, it's the person that comes with empty hands and empty pockets, as Daryl Johnson says, and throws themselves at the mercy of God and says, I have nothing to add to this thing uh except the sin that crucified God. And uh, Jesus Christ, I'm throwing myself at your mercy, forgive me and uh change me any way that you want.

SPEAKER_01 52:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 52:34

Like that, that's it. So, Paul in Romans 10, if anyone believes in their heart and confesses with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and that God raised him from the dead, they shall be saved. Uh so that there you go. Like it's it's it's repentance of sin, faith in Christ as Lord, God's savior, redeemer, uh, to where he becomes treasure of my life. And then slowly, incrementally, my life begins to change as I have confessed total allegiances to Christ, and uh uh he begins to do a work of transformation. But we need to make a distinction between um justification and um what's called sanctification. Justification is the legal theological term of you being saved, you being made right with God, just as if you'd never sinned before. And sanctification is the process of becoming like Jesus. Um I met okay, let me give you an example. I'm I met with some uh what I love about our church, bro, is we have we have some of the coolest people that are coming here with just wild testimonies. I mean, like I'll tell our church this often where it's like you just have no idea who you're sitting next to. Yeah, you know, I'm looking out at people, I'm like, that guy just got out of prison. You know, like that dude was a former 1% 1%er, like ran the banditos, shuffled some drugs, and probably hurt some people pretty bad. Uh she's an ex-prostitute. This guy's coming out of the LGBTQ community and like just crazy homosexual lifestyle, and God's doing this amazing work in his life. It's amazing. Yeah, and I love it. And and a lot of times what happens for these folks is they get so discouraged because it's like they feel like they can't go to church because you know, they they look at Christians as like they see these families that look so good on Sunday morning, yeah. And and so they judge themselves to that person and they're like, well, I'm not there, and my life is a disaster, right? And uh I'm still in process, and I just had a relapse this

Justification and sanctification

SPEAKER_05 54:45

last week, and so I'm experiencing shame, and I feel like I can't go uh go to church because I'm judging myself based on these people. What they don't know is this couple over here, they're going through marriage counseling because he just committed adultery, by the way. So that's always ironic to me. But here's the thing is like there's a difference between justification and sanctification. And so what I always want to talk with these people about is like, dude, don't judge yourself based on this arbitrary standard of holiness on where you think that you should be. Look at the change, bro. Like, look where you were and look at what God has done in your life. Yeah, like you used to not care about sleeping around and looking at porn and doing drugs and getting high and doing all this goofy, stupid stuff. And now you care, and you're like you your conscience is convicting you, the spirit is convicting you, and you're talking to God about the temptation, and you've been and you've given your life to Christ, you've been water baptized, and he's doing this work of change and transformation. And it's not to downplay sin and say that, like, okay, it's no big deal now. No, but like recognize the fruit of salvation is happening in your life. God is changing you, he is transforming you. And so let's continue to work on those proclivities towards you know, like going other places other than God for comfort and for um uh peace, yeah, drugs, sex, whatever. And let's talk about how to find the fulfillment of those things in Jesus, but you are in process. So first and foremost, we gotta recognize, and we we can't uh start adding like people will talk about a double conversion where we need to convert you to Christ and we need to conserve convert convert you to like a certain um like we need to convert you to conservatism politically, yeah. Or you can't be a Christian, or we need to we need to convert you to Christ and then we need to convert you to political liberalism. It's a double conversion. It's it's not you have to become a conservative first before you become a Christian, or a liberal first, and then you become a Christian. It's not you you have to get the porn stuff figured out and then you can become a Christian or the sex stuff figured out and then you can become a Christian. Jesus calls Matthew the tax collector from the tax booth while he's exploiting people. Um what's also interesting is Jesus didn't give Matthew the tax the money bag. He wasn't the dude that was in charge of money. Yeah um and uh and so he called Matthew from his life of sin when he was in his life of sin to follow him, and he began a work of transformation in his soul and in his heart uh over time. So that's what's important. Um, and the fruit of true salvation of you properly believing that Jesus Christ is Lord, is your life is gonna change. Yeah, it's a confession of allegiance and lordship, like he's God, and so I'm gonna allow him to be God of my life. And we don't need to get too much more technical than that, um, but this is where the Christian creeds are really helpful. So um they're not like coming up with new theology, and there's all this bad information about there of like, you know, it was it was Constantine, the Roman Emperor, that basically like it was a power play that's total bogus history rewriting of it. That's not at all what's going on. Um, or these bishops have everything to gain. Dude, it's such people say stupid stuff. These bishops had just been freaking persecuted for their faith in Jesus. Many of them like bore the mark, the scars on their body of like persecution for their faith in Christ. They had nothing to gain and everything to lose. And uh and many of them they'd taken like these incredible vows of like poverty and like humble living. They had nothing to gain and they weren't creating new theology, they were affirming the faith that was handed down from the apostolic fathers. And so they synthesize it in these really beautiful, amazing ways that the historic Orthodox Church has held to over the last 2,000 years. And one thing that they really care about is the doctrine of the Trinity. So God is one, eternally existing in three persons, Father, Son, and Spirit. So you start messing with that, it's like, okay, well, you're not a Christian. Um, they talk about the virgin birth, uh, they talk about the life, the death, the resurrection of Christ. These are like the core doctrines upon which the gospel hangs. You start denying that stuff, you're not a Christian anymore. Um, so there's some things that we could get into with that, but the the first the first thing to say is that this is this is about faith. It's not about what you do, it's about what's been done for you and receiving that as a gift of grace.

SPEAKER_00 59:16

What about like I got a couple questions? Um when someone's you know, like dying, like actively dying, and you're like, I feel like you see this in movies or whatever, but they're like, Do you know God? or like they do like a repentance prayer, like right there, like as that person's dying. Like let's say like that person didn't walk with God their whole life, and then they invite God in in like the last two minutes, then does that so if Christianity is a work-based religion, then that n that n the answer is no.

SPEAKER_05 59:55

Like, because they didn't do enough. Right? Like if it's but if it's a faith-based thing, then yeah. If they if they'd actually truly believed that, okay, yes, I'm a sinner, I'm about to square off with my creator, that's freaking terrifying to me. I'm not in right relationship with God, and uh, I need Christ to forgive me of my sin and uh uh to to save me uh because I'm about to meet my creator face to face and I'm not ready for that moment. They genuinely do that. And yes, I believe that they are saved or otherwise, or Christianity is a gospel of works, because what do they need to do? Do they need to go get water baptized? Well, they're on their deathbed, they can't do that. Do they need to go and become a member of a church? They're on their deathbed, they can't do that. Do they need to go and like I mean, what what what's the arbitrary standard of like righteous living that they need to go make right in their life before they can be saved? Yeah, so I mean, you can get offended at that and think that that's ridiculous, or you could just stand in awe of God's grace and that he really actually, this is what he wants to do in somebody's life. And this is this is the nature of Christianity. That person doesn't need they they don't have the opportunity to go make everything right, whatever that even means. Um they're about to die. So, yes, I would say if it's a genuine point of repentance and like plea with God for mercy on their soul, uh, that he would forgive them

Can someone be saved at the end of life?

SPEAKER_05 1:01:21

and and that he would save them uh from the judgment that they're about to experience, then yes, Jesus would lovingly, graciously do just that. Yeah. The theological biblical parallel to that would be the thief on the cross. You're probably familiar with the story, right? So uh criminals dying on either side of Jesus, and uh one's mocking Jesus, and you know, if you're the son of God, jump down and save us while you're at it. And then the other dude is like, dude, shut up, man. What are you? You're an idiot. Like, we're here because we uh committed crimes, and it's justified that we're here. It's a lot of humility, right? We don't want to do that. Um, he's taking responsibility for his sin and for his error, and then what does he do? He throws himself at the mercy of Jesus and he says, Lord, just remember me when you come in your kingdom. And then Jesus looks at him and what does he say? Unless you don't remember today, you'll be with me in paradise. Right. Sorry to put you on blast like that. Today you will be with me in paradise. So that guy was saved right there. Yeah, right. So Jesus is like, Okay, yeah, I'll do you better. I'm not just gonna remember you, I'm just gonna be in my mind as a thought. And oh, that was a nice thing that that guy said, you know. But I'm taking you with me. Yeah, this is why I came. Dude, that's nuts. Yeah, it's crazy. Like, that's so freaking and by the way, again, crazy thing to think about how Jesus Christ pursues people even in death. Like, that guy was going to die at a death sentence. And it was moments before his actual death that God was crucified next to him as a criminal, like entered all the way into the depth of like his horrible situation and circumstance, and actually died right next to him, a criminal's death, even though he wasn't one to save the guy. Bro, that's nuts. Yeah, if that doesn't like soften your heart to Jesus, I don't know what will. And so the guy didn't have time to get water baptized. Jesus wasn't like, okay, yeah, uh, somebody bring the water. Um, or like, we need to, you know, we need to get this guy through 12 steps, or like a discipleship pathway. None of that was possible. Today you'll be with me in paradise. What did he do? He recognized he was a sinner, he was responsible for his sin, and he deserved to die, and he threw himself at the mercy of Christ, and he got eternal life with Jesus. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:48

What would you say for like practically? What do you say to the people? Like back to the question of they're in a better place now. Like, what do you s how do as a Christian, how do I respond to that? Like, what do I even say in a moment when someone's like, at least he's you know, with XYZ, or at least he's in a better place? Like, what do you even say?

SPEAKER_05 1:04:12

I guess and it's it I feel like it's hard because give me give me like who specifically in relationship to like like a friend.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:21

Like just a a friend, like is this friend a Christian or a non-Christian? Non-Christian.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:26

Okay, so then I would say to them because I care about them, how do you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:32

How do you know that? How do you know that they're in a better place? How do you know that they're not in a worse place? And press them on that. That's the loving thing to do. Yeah. Um if if these are Jesus followers talking about a fellow Jesus follower who died, that is 100% true. Here's what we gotta understand. For the Christian, this life is as close to hell as you're ever gonna get, man. You're gonna shed tears, you're gonna experience hurt and loss and suffering. This life is as close to hell as you're ever gonna get. For the non-Christian, this life is as close to heaven as you're ever gonna get. God has revealed himself and his goodness and his kindness to us in so many different ways. You don't have to be a Christian to experience the beauty and the joy of sex, you don't have to be a Christian to experience the beauty and the joy of a good meal, of community, of laughter, of comedy, of uh travel, of the beauty of creation, of the wonder of everything, considering that concerning the human experience. You don't have to be a Christian to experience these things. Um, this life, and they're all pointers. It's meant to point us to God, who the Psalm says, in his presence is fullness of joy, and in his right hand is pleasures forevermore. This isn't it, dude. This is dress rehearsal for eternal life in the age to come. And uh pleasures are meant to point us to the God who created the category of pleasure. And when we say the pleasure is the end all be all, uh, that this is just the height of the human experience. Experience, man, that is such a profound and horrible error to make because the joys of knowing God are infinitely greater than anything that you can get your hands on in this life. So to the person that's saying he's in a better place, if if these these are people who haven't allowed Jesus to solve the death problem in their life, then I want to ask the question lovingly and graciously and gently, how the freak do you know that that's the case? Yeah. Because you don't know that's the case. And for the non-believer, this life is as close to hell or to heaven as they're ever going to get for the Christians, as close to hell as we're ever going to get. It only gets better for the follower of Jesus. It only gets worse for the person who rejects Christ. And here's the thing about suffering, dude, what it does is people begin to, it's an amazing opportunity to share your faith. And so I always want to encourage people to be bold about it. Yeah. Like don't dumb this thing down. Don't freaking take the easy road out and not talk about stuff. People are asking big questions right now around your community. Um, and that's worth that's worth stepping into. Yeah. Uh concerning a bold Christian witness. Yeah. Um, because they're asking the questions of life and death and life after death. An amazing opportunity to share Jesus, who did solve the problem of death, who entered all the way into our death, died our death, rose again, proving that there's life after death, and uh that he can do something in my life that makes it so I never die. I just

Sharing the gospel with grieving friends

SPEAKER_05 1:07:36

death becomes the great servant for the follower of Jesus because it's the thing that brings me face to face with him. That's why Paul's like, dude, to live is Christ, to die is gain.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:44

Yeah. What can we role play here for a second? Let's roleplay it, dude. So act it out. I'm the unbeliever, but I'm letting you know that at least my friend's in a better place. And then you're a tailor or just a Christian friend. How do we walk through that? Um and I'm curious, like what what do you think the most effective way is to share the gospel in like a bite-sized piece?

SPEAKER_05 1:08:15

So Jesus came full of grace and truth. I want to do both.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:19

I think the order's important. I don't think they're contradicting to each other. It's grace-truth. It shouldn't, it, you know, like we we kind of make a distinction and we think that truth is at the expense of grace, and grace is at the expense of truth. They're one and the same in Jesus, they're perfectly harmonized in Jesus Christ. And so I I would start here. So if you're saying, you know, like you're a friend of mine, I care deeply about you. Um, you're not a follower of Jesus, he's in a better place. Um, I would say, hey man, um, I'm really sorry for what you're going through. It's devastating. This is horrible. You just lost your friend, and I'm so sorry. Um, and I want to support you, and I want to care for you and walk this thing out with you. And uh this is horrible what you're going through right now. Um, and um I've been wrestling with this also, with the loss of this person. Um you're saying that they're in a better place, you're not a follower of Jesus. How do you know? And what do you even mean by that? And then you just shut up and listen.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:28

And then and then and then you you say, Well, this is okay, so that's what you think. Here's what is giving me comfort right now. Here's the gospel, here's Jesus, here's Jesus' work. Yeah, here's the work that Jesus looked like he was up to in this guy's life, and so that gives me hope. I don't know where he's at, but I want to hope and believe that he's with Jesus right now. And oh, by the way, since you're asking big questions about death and life right now, what do you think of Jesus? And then we start having a conversation about that person and um their relationship to the God of the universe. Probably looks something like that. Okay. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:12

I'd say that's good. I mean it just feels so tricky with how like there's so much like emotions in the air with all that, you know? Like people are already really upset, and it's like and maybe that's just like a blind spot. I have like a yeah, but dude, I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:33

I the more conversations I have with people, if you're gracious and you really actually love them, yeah. Um I don't know. I I think that like when you're confronted with death, it does open the heart up in a unique way. I think that it's the it's the fear of like an anger retaliation that people have that keeps or or you know, I don't want to cause more harm to this person emotionally than what they're navigating through. Um but the thing is, is you're going through it also. So it's like you're right, you're right there with this person. Um, this is somebody in this hypothetical situation where you you care about this individual as well. And so you're a co-sufferer. So you're right in it, you're not a hypocrite in that sense. And in in my experience, like just because of what happens to the heart when there's loss, there is an openness to actually talk through these things.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:24

If you can do it in a way that's like you're not like a religious, like freaking prick, you know, and just like I'm gonna exploit this opportunity to preach at you, yeah. And you can actually come alongside the person, you know, in a a humble, gracious, I really actually genuinely love and care for you way, um, man, that's gonna make a difference. But the dude, honestly, the the person whose heart is not, let me just say this like, if if there's somebody here whose heart is like, no, I just want to feel good about myself as a Christian and like get my gold star for telling them about Jesus and you know, like preaching at them and I don't actually care about them, then just shut up. Like you're just gonna make stuff worse and you're gonna piss them off and you're gonna make them mad at God because you're misrepresenting Jesus. So, how that doesn't happen is you have a heart of humility where you actually genuinely care deeply about this person and you love them. Yeah, authority, I think, in the kingdom of God, uh, is directly connected to the measure of love that you and I have. So Paul's like, look, you could have all the powers of these spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14. But if you don't have love, dude, you're you're just a clanging symbol, and that's obnoxious and nobody likes you, so shut up and sit in the corner and go ask God to forgive you of the hardness of your heart and give you his love for humanity.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:48

Can I give you some objections and be like actually like like I am I let's say I am an unbeliever and um I just told you like that at least he's somewhere better and you're you're pushing back on that. And now I'm like asking you questions about faith.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:12

Which which I would hope would happen in this conversation. So that's a big win.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:16

So so let's start with this. Um what so where where do you think he is then? Like what happened what happened to him if I don't know. So where are you finding your comfort right now if you're if you're saying that I'm I'm wrong?

SPEAKER_05 1:13:34

Where I'm finding my comfort right now knowing that you and I are talking about this and um that you can meet Jesus and I can sleep good at night should something this horrible ever happen to you.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:50

What what do I have

Inviting someone toward Jesus

SPEAKER_00 1:13:51

to do to to meet Jesus? Like what does that look like?

SPEAKER_05 1:13:56

Well let's start by why don't you just come sit with me at church this Sunday and then we'll go talk about it afterwards? Would you be willing to do that?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:08

Um maybe I'd have to check my schedule.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:12

I will pick you up. Check your schedule right now. That's the only excuse. Okay, all right. The point that I'm trying to make right there is a lot of times people make evangelism way more difficult than it actually is. Yeah. And it can just be difficult because I can give you an answer. Like you, and that that's really the ideal uh is that I would be able to share with you in that context. Like, what does it mean? Like, how do I become a follower of Jesus? For a lot of people, it can just be too intimidating, and we don't want to like misrepresent God in some sort of way because we do have a measure of the fear of the Lord, which is a good thing. Uh, I think a lot of that fear is unnecessary, and I just wish people would just open their mouth and freaking try. But it can be just as simple as like, hey, let me just pick you up for church on Sunday. Would you come, would you come sit with me? It would mean a lot to me if you would let me pick you up and bring you to church. And uh, you know, my pastor talks about Jesus every week. He he talks about he makes sure to get that in the sermon. What does it mean to follow Jesus? How do you start that journey? And then we can go get coffee, and I'd love to hear uh what you what you think about it afterwards, and we can talk more. So that's a way if uh the ideal really is that we would be able to um share what that means. And uh so when I'm talking through the gospel with people, we don't want to make following Jesus more difficult than it is. Um, and so we would just start here. Hey man, when Jesus called people, he said, Come and follow me. Like that's it's it's a it's a relationship that begins. It's saying yes to a relationship. And the question is, why would you want to do that? Well, let me tell you what Jesus has done for you and why I want him to be the hero of your life. Um, the Bible's gonna say you're a sinner and I'm a sinner. We need a savior, we can't save ourselves, and we go through that faith thing. Um, Jesus lived a perfect life that you couldn't and that I couldn't. He died to death that we deserve because of our sin, because Romans says the wages of sin is death. Um and he beat death, bodily resurrected from the dead three days later. Scripture says Romans 10, if I confess with my mouth, believe in my heart that God rose Christ from the dead and confess him as Lord, that I shall be saved. And so it's realizing that Jesus is God and He proved that He's God when He got up from the dead. Um, He did all of this perfect life, death, resurrection thing because He loves you, because you're a sinner, and because you are going to stand before your Creator and be judged one day, and it's not good for you because God is just and you will have to reckon with your sin as you stand before your holy Creator. And because God loves you so much, He made a way uh for you to um be forgiven of your sin and reconciled to Himself through the person and the work of Jesus. And how does that start? It doesn't start by you having all the this is another thing I like to clarify for people. It doesn't start by you having the perfect answer to all the questions. You know, to be a Christian isn't to cease from doubt, bro. Like uh several years ago, I uh we had a baby that died, and um, I'm sure we'll get into that more as the podcast journey goes on here. Um, I was a pastor at the time and I had a conscious conversation with God. I don't know if I come out of this a Christian anymore. I'm a pastor preaching, you know, like counseling people. Um, and I literally had a conversation with God in the hospital room as I'm looking at my dead baby. I don't know how I can come through this a Christian anymore. Yeah. Um man, that's a bad thing to experience. What were we just talking about?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:54

We were doing the role play thingy, and then we were talking about you were kind of we were doing the objections, and then you were talking about just the church stuff. You're talking about inviting people to church, and then you're talking about other things you can say, and then so to become a Christian isn't to cease from doubt.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:15

Yep. I had doubts in that moment as a pastor, as a follower of Jesus for a number of years. At that point, Jesus is for in and by God's grace, uh, it is amazing. I I thought you were supposed to lose your salvation and suffering. Dude, I found Christ in that. Like I would have never found him if I didn't shed those tears and go through that loss. Yeah. Um, in amazing, incredible, just like supernatural, awesome ways. Um and the disciples were the first to question the resurrection, right? So it's like, okay, so there's room for your doubts. Yeah. And you need to doubt your doubts. Bring your doubts. Yep. But let's start the journey of following Jesus together. Like, would you come and sit next to me at church?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:58

Um What if they're like, oh, church is weird. I don't I had a bad experience before or grew up. Weird.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:07

But like you believe that people were in a better place after they died, and you don't have anything that you're basing that on. That's kind of weird.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:12

But like I I feel like I do get pushback from people who have had whether it's church or just like a bad experience before.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so the problem of hypocrisy. So let's talk about that. So people will discredit Christianity and the gospel and Christ because of Christians who misrepresent them. So it's the problem of hypocrisy, is what I've called it before. Um the which I stole from like three other people, so I can't claim credit for that. Uh, but you know, like, so what's the problem with that? Well, there's several problems with that. Christianity isn't about Christians, it's about Christ. So, and Jesus talks about false disciples in the Sermon on the Mount. He's like, There's people that are gonna say, Lord, Lord, to me, that did miracles.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:52

Matthew 7, terrifying. They prophesied, they healed the sick, they cast out demons, they did all this stuff. They called me Lord, and he's gonna look at

What about hypocritical Christians?

SPEAKER_05 1:20:02

them and say, get away from me, I never knew you. That's crazy. So these are people that they they're saying the right things, they're walking in supernatural power, and in the end, they're not actually, they're not actually legit, they're not real disciples. And so that's that's a problem for the person that wants to punt on Christianity because of Christians who might there there are people who will claim Christ that aren't maybe even followers of Jesus. So for somebody to discredit Christ in the gospel because of how somebody who might not even be saved just like misrepresented him, that's dumb. We're not trying to convert people to a certain Christian or a group of Christians, we're trying to convert people to Christ, who's the true hero of the story. Um, and in addition to this one, when people want to throw the hypocrisy card, it's like, okay, man, um, yeah, sure, we got hypocrisy in the church. We got I got hypocrisy in my life. Um, I'm a little bit more aware of it now than I used to be. Uh, and whenever people say they don't want to come to church because of it's full of hypocrites, I just tell them, like, look, we got room for one more, man. Do you perfectly live up to the standards of your own worldview? No, absolutely not. And the woke culture moment is just it's easy it's low-hanging fruit, it's easy to pick on. I'll give you an example of this. You've got these people that are screaming for tolerance, right? It's like we just need to tolerate everybody, but the one people that we're not going to tolerate are the intolerant people. Yeah. And actually the standards of who's included on the people that we're going to be cool with. Uh, they have to vote a certain way, look a certain way, support these organizations. They have to use these pronouns, they have to carry themselves in this manner. They have to subscribe to these doctrines and dogmas that we hold dear. And if you and we need to educate you on this, and we need to bring you through all sorts of DEI training and um all of these special classes so you can realize that you're a racist, misogynist, you know, anti-LGBTQ rights, selfish, patriarchal, 20-something white, cisgender, straight man, and you're the problem. Um, and if you don't perfectly subscribe to our estimation of you, even though that might be a total misrepresentation of you who you are, uh, then we're gonna pour out our wrath on you and judge you like God. So it's freaking ironic to me, dude, that the people who are claiming and calling for tolerance are the ones who are most intolerant. And in addition to this, in the Bible, tolerance isn't a virtue, it's a vice. It's a bad thing, it's not a good thing. You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who's who's convincing you that you can sleep around and do whatever you want with your bodies and eat food sacrificed to idols and do all of this idol worship stuff, and it's not good. Jesus calls the church to repent for it for tolerance. So it's not a virtue, it's a vice. Nobody lives up to their standard of morality and rightness perfectly. We're all hypocrites. There's one for room for one more. Come anyways. It's not about Christians, it's about Christ. It's good. If you could leave people, bro, with one thing here, yeah. What do you want to leave them with?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:12

Um I guess there's hope even in death. Um truth is gonna trump your emotions, and it's it's good that it does, because then we have actual ground to stand on. If our truth is based on which is what we feel, then we'd get to where culture is right now. And um it's like hell on earth when that happens. Um and I'm like as as hard as it is to hear like some of the stuff you've said and like that I know is true, but it's just like I guess it's just it's just hard truths. I'm very grateful that we have truth to live by. And um I think this whole situation is just good for getting a little bit more fire under my feet with getting the word out there. And I'm grateful we get to do that on this podcast.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:19

Me too, ma'am. I would say my final closing thought here would be that Christianity has the best answer to the problem of suffering. Yeah. Absolutely. Um the Christian story God created us because of his great love for us and his desire to share that love with us, just like a proud dad. We rebelled against God and chose to become our own sovereign authority in our lives. We we rejected God as the author and the fountain of life. Um, and as we did so, death entered the picture because life is only possible in relationship to the God of life. Jesus is the resurrection and the life. Um, and when I reject him, uh this is the story of sin and death. And uh, because God is so loving, kind, gracious, and merciful,

Christianity’s answer to suffering

SPEAKER_05 1:25:22

um in the midst of our rebellion and our rejection and our sinfulness, he purposed in the person of Christ to come and solve our problems that weren't his to solve. So he becomes a man and he lives the perfect life that I couldn't. He enters all the way into because here's here's the thing, man. Um, there are so many great philosophical answers to the problem of suffering that we could talk about when people are going through something difficult. What I found to be helpful is like the philosophical answers are great and we need to have a coherent thinking system. Also, that's not really what people are looking for. They need a pastoral response. So here's what we know the answer of why does suffering happen? Why did your friend die? Why did my friend die? Why did my the people that I care about that I love die without Christ? Why did that all of all of that happen? Why do I suffer? Why is there suffering in the world? Here's a part of what we know the answer can't be from the Christian perspective. It cannot be that God doesn't care. Because what Jesus does is he enters all the way into the suffering and suffers a bloody, brutal, barbarous, torturous death and rises again to new life, breaking the grip of death. He enters all the way into the web of it to break me free from the inside because he's on a rescue mission to save me from the final effects of death by experiencing it for me so that he can reign in my life. No longer death reigns in my life. You only get that with Christianity. You don't get that with Eastern karmic religion. Well, suffering, you know, it's this person's fault from a former life, and they had it coming. And so don't do anything to alleviate the suffering because they really need to pay back their karmic debt. Certainly don't get it from secular humanism. Um, really, the purpose of living is comfort, and so just pretend like death doesn't exist, which is great until you actually experience it, and then what do you go? Well, you borrow from religion, and that's disingenuous, and that doesn't really comfort you. Only Christianity says God hates death, it's not good, it's the great enemy, and Jesus Christ came to solve the problem of death, and he died, so you don't have to. Yeah, so you can be forgiven of sin. The thing that kept you from relationship with God, you can be forgiven of it, you can be reconciled to your creator through Jesus Christ. And to the listener, I would implore you and plead with you and say, consider Jesus because nobody's loved you like this. And he's the answer. Absolutely. Peace.