If a Christian Commits Suicide, Do They Go to Heaven?

Trigger warning: This episode includes discussion of suicide, self-harm, and suicidal ideation.

If you are struggling with thoughts of suicide or self-harm, please reach out to someone you trust right now. In the U.S., you can call or text 988 to reach the Suicide & Crisis Lifeline. You are loved, your life matters, and there is hope.

In this episode of Call Him Father, Micah and Pastor Taylor talk through one of the heaviest questions Christians ask: if a Christian commits suicide, do they go to heaven?

They discuss whether suicide is the unforgivable sin, what the Bible says about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, how Christians should think about salvation, and why someone’s final moment does not erase the finished work of Christ if they truly belong to Him.

Micah also shares part of his own story of walking through suicidal thoughts, self-harm, depression, and the importance of inviting trusted people into the pain instead of staying isolated.

The conversation also covers spiritual warfare, demonic oppression, mental health, habitual sexual sin, true repentance, assurance of salvation, Catholicism, Protestantism, communion, and what it means to take the Lord’s Supper seriously.

Call Him Father is a podcast tackling hard questions about faith, life, and following Jesus in a modern world.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey, what's up, guys? Welcome to another episode of Call Him Father Podcast. So glad that you're with us. Want to give you a trigger warning, disclaimer here right out the gate. We do talk about some serious stuff in this episode, uh, like self-harm, suicidal ideation, suicide, and uh want to let you know that that's coming. If that is going to be too triggering for you, feel free to skip this episode. Uh, but I think that we hit on some important stuff as we talked about those most important issues. We talked about uh servant leadership, hit on Catholicism. What's the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism? And can Catholics be saved? Some good stuff there, and uh looking forward to having you along for this episode. Thanks for being here, Micah Mania. Yes, sir. Good to see you. Good to see you as well. So glad we're back on the pod, man. What do you got going on in your world, bro? What are you thinking about lately?

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Um Yeah, so I mean, we were just talking about that. I had kind of a weird week. I feel like so in my life, about I think a month and a half ago now, I transitioned from my full-time job to being full-time with the company I've been working on since last August with Emma. Big jump, man. Congratulations. Thank you. And um, we hired on our first full-time employee. Um shout out Ben. Yeah, shout out Cova. He's so good. Um I feel like he needs like two more nicknames for it. Anyways. B Co. B Co? Um K dot.

unknown 1:38

K Dot.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

Oh, he's got 'em. See? Yeah, perfect. He's got a lot of them. Yeah, that's I love it. Perfect.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Um, I kind of make him up as we go, though. Good to do.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Um keep him on his toes.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

But we I don't know, this week was just weird. Like I felt like the pressure from like social media and stuff. And I think it was just like an overwhelming week. Like we had all this stuff with Emma's health going on this past week, and then you know when you have like a bunch of random bills like it at the same time? And then we Yeah, it was it was just like a a funky week and it's Yeah, dude, just wait till you start having kids, man.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Yeah. Let's talk, Micah, about the random bills.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Like I've just got so much going on with like the marketing of our own product and then um balancing all the client work and then development of the company to make sure things are going smoothly. And I think it just all like it kind of hit me at once. And I was like just bummed for a couple days. I think I'm still bummed, but I'm not I don't know. And I I think part of it too is like now that I'm now that I have like a full-time employee, it's like there's that weight of someone else's livelihood being dependent on the income that I bring in, um, which feels like heavy. And so it's like it definitely made me feel some urgency for getting like inbound leads. Like I've always done um my work by just word of mouth because um people usually like it and then they just tell other people about it. But then I kind of got like a conviction of like, dude, I'm a marketing company, I don't market myself.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Isn't that so interesting? And that seems to be the case across the board. Like marketers are good at getting other people business, but they suck at getting themselves business.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Yeah. But it was just weird because I'm so I love like sitting down and talking with people and like helping them understand um, you know, how I can help them and like figuring out how we can help them. But then it's like when you go to create your own campaign, it's like it's almost like your pride is attached to it. It's almost like I want to hire like another marketing company to do our marketing, but I'm like, that's dumb. I just need to do this. Um so yeah, that's where I'm at. Nice. But a lot going on.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

You'll figure it out. I know I will. I'll be confident in you.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

Yeah. But I think the it's a good opportunity to like have faith that like you know, God's not gonna abandon Kova and I. Like we'll be fine, like regardless of whatever happens. And the work always comes. Like it's it always works itself out somehow.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

It's a good place to be, man. And that, you know what, honestly, dude, I like I think that it is really interesting how like the Christian life is all of life. It's not just like like we we tend to do a lot of compartmentalization in our cultural context. Actually, let's go off on this for a couple minutes because this will be helpful for somebody. We tend to think in compartments as Western modern people. So it's like I've got the work box, I've got marriage family, I've got hobbies, I've got friends, I've got the God box, right? Where, you know, I go to church on Sunday, maybe a couple times a month, um, pray every once in a while, try to have a relationship with God. But it's very like detached from each other in a sense, where you know, the God compartment doesn't really interact with the marriage and family compartment or the work compartment or whatever. They're kind of isolated from one another. And I think that that is a byproduct of Western individualist thinking, not being shaped by Christian discipleship because it's gonna have more of a vision of integration, Jesus does. So when he says, come and follow me, he's saying bring all of your life with you. Like he's not just inviting us to follow him in an isolated sense for a couple hours a week. He's saying, like, I want you to get up out your chair, submit your mind, your heart, your values, your wallet, your future, your priorities to me, and and I'm going, you get a new center. So it's not about prioritization or compartmentalization, it's about integration. Your center changes. So another thing that you hear is uh, you know, and I've preached this before, and it it's helpful for people, but it's not a holistic picture of what Christian discipleship is where we talk about, you know, are your priorities straight? Yeah. You know, so it's God's your top priority, and then your wife, and then your kids, and then your work, and then hobbies, right? Same sort of thinking. And the problem with that is for people that do that, is it, you know, like you'll put God at top at the top of the list, right? But it doesn't really like filter all the way out in life per what you wrote out. Like you, you're still isolated, you're still you still have these different compartments that God doesn't really interact with. So hobbies are way down here, God's way up here, and they don't really interact with each other. Or marriage is down here, God's up here, and God doesn't really inform how I treat my wife or how we function in our marriage. And so I think a more faithful representation of Jesus Christ's call to discipleship is that of integration. It's the center changes. Yeah. Like you get a new center. Sin, what it's done is it's put self at the center. So that's how we live all of life. It's about me, myself, my own desires, my will, my preferences, my comfort, my convenience. And Christian discipleship says you need to actually repent of that. That's where all of the evil and brokenness came from in the world is Christ not reigning as king in your heart and mine. So we repent, we put Christ there. And then what happens is he then informs how we interact with all of life, including business. Yeah. So this is something that like I wish more people would get. Like, dude, you get to, as a follower of Jesus, uh, you don't shut that off when you go to work. Like you're building, you're creating a business that's creative. God's a creator. That's a really awesome opportunity for you to not have a compartmentalized faith, but what does it look like to actually follow Jesus in the middle of my vocation, in the middle of my career, in the middle of this business that I'm leading and pioneering? And uh, and what does partnership look like? It's the the Protestant, the Protestant actually Reformation, they had a strong emphasis on the doctrine of vocation. So, like how you do your work, do all to the glory of God, Paul says. And I think we got to recover that, man, because we got we got a lot of people that imagine like the peace that that would bring to us if it's like, okay, just like I belong to God, so does this business. I'm gonna commit it to Him. Yeah, God help me honor you in this. Would you provide for us in this? I'm gonna ultimately, I'm not trusting in my own means of you know, seeing this thing grow and like I've got skills that I'm gonna deploy here, but ultimately it's all got to come from you. Yeah. Just like John says that, you know, John the Baptist, that uh anything that anyone has, it was given to him from heaven. And so I've got kind of an unfair advantage because I'm a pastor. Although pastors can get out of that mindset where they just become like, you know, they believe a lie that they're the head of the church and Christ isn't. Um, so it it it's kind of a built-in reality for the Christian pastor where my role as a pastor, it comes with this idea that Christ is the head, Christ is the chief shepherd, Christ is the chief apostle, he is the prophet, the priest, the king, the evangelist, the pastor, the teacher. Like he's the chief leader of the Church of Jesus Christ, and I'm a steward of him. So it's a little bit maybe theologically easier for me to get there, and I understand that, but that's not something that's just unique to pastors. Like, that's that's all of the Christian life. Yeah. I was talking to some law enforcement um people this last week that go to New Song, and we were just kind of riffing and talking about this. Like, what does it look like to go to work with Jesus? Like, law enforcement, God created it for divine purpose to basically order and structure society, reward the good, punish the bad. So God created uh government and law enforcement to function in society as his stewards to maintain order, because God is a God of law and of order. And so we were talking about like what is what does that mean? You know, because I mean these guys see such horrible stuff, dude. And shout out to you if you're a first responder, law enforcement, so grateful for you and what you do. You guys are heroes, and it's amazing what they see. Like, we're just talking about some of these calls that this person was going on, and um it's just tragic. Like it's a very unique experience for somebody to have. And you can have a bent and a trend towards disillusionment and cynicism because there's so much injustice out there, so much brokenness, so much violence, so much sin, yeah, so much lawlessness. And um, and so we were talking about that in view of Luke 18, the parable of the persistent widow, where you have an unjust judge legal system, and she just incessantly goes after justice, and eventually the judge gives it to her. And then Jesus' point is God is a God of justice, so how much more will he give his elect justice when they cry to him day and night? And so we were just talking about how that applies in that context of like, dude, you get to show up to work here with Jesus, knowing that like you're his steward and his servant in this space. Pray for change, believe for change, work for change, put the bad people in jail. And um, you know, like it you get to you get to do that with Jesus Christ. So, um, man, that's helpful, especially because you're pioneering a business, right? Which there's a lot of fear, I'm sure, that you're experiencing with that and uncertainty. Where, like you're saying, you've got an employee now. Like it's not just you, and it's not just you taking care of your wife, it's like this thing's growing and it's now helping take care of multiple people. Yeah. And so I think that that roll we get to roll that idea of rolling that over into Jesus' Lordship as well. Yeah. And surrendering it ultimately to Him, not as an excuse to not work and not do everything that we can to see it grow and be healthy. Um and if anything, I think that when we do that, it actually helps us do that better and more.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Yeah. And I think since it is like its own entity now, it's not like I've been a freelancer for so long. Um, but since it's like its own thing, like the I get paid by the company and we have employees and contractors we pay, it's like I feel like I'm it's like a garden that I have to take care of. Um and there's like, you know, different jobs in the garden, but it's I think it's tricky when we're still figuring out what like each I his his role is very defined, but for me it's like there's all these you know, like the entrepreneur brain. Your your role is everything. Yeah. And so it it can be really tricky because it some weeks it can be like I'm just putting out fires and then next week it can be I'm just building systems and stuff, or I'm filming and doing client relations, so it's like I don't know. It's um there's a lot a lot of all over the place stuff, but we're getting it figured out.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

And it's growing, man, and you're doing a great job. You guys are doing awesome, it's so cool to see. And I'm excited for you guys. I think um doors are gonna continue to open, especially as you're staying prayerful, keeping the thing in Jesus' hands. And uh I'm excited for what it's gonna look like as you continue to invest yourself in it.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

The important part is like um like I was texting you about it, it's like I think it's how I frame it in my mind. Like, if it's I'm doing this because I want to serve my family and provide us, you know, more freedom with our time and build something I actually really love and want to be doing. Um and I get to help other people, I get to um you know, give Kova more like resources to learn um and grow under the company. It's like that's a much cooler framing than like, oh, I have to do this work, and if I don't, like I'll have client turn. So it's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

I think it's just yeah, because I I think you're tapping in more of a servant mentality, yeah, yeah. More of a selfless mentality, yeah. More of a like, you know, me for you, um, you at my expense type of uh bent. And it's amazing how motivating that is, man. Turns out, like that selfish way of doing life and business where it's all about me, my comfort, my fulfillment, my purpose, like isolated from serving and doing good by other people. God created the human person to function in a certain way, yeah, and it's to reflect his character and his nature, and his character and nature is most clearly displayed for us in the cross of Christ, total self-giving, other-oriented love at great cost to himself. Yeah. And so that makes sense to me, and I'm not surprised by that because I think that that you're you're tapping into a very deep part of how God made us as his imagers, which is to give ourselves for the good of other people.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

You think it's I I feel like I've noticed it's easier to do something if it's for someone else. Like it's like if you were to clean someone else's room out of love, and then your room just isn't clean. It's a very, you know, elementary example, but I feel like it's easier to serve other people than it is to do it for yourself. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

And that framing is like I think that's generally a good place to be, man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

We're gonna get into some questions that we have from our Instagram audience. So if you don't follow us already on there, it's at call himfather. Um, and you can DM us any questions you want answered and we'll get them answered on the episode. So the first one is kind of heavy, um, but I think it's necessary to answer. So if a Christian deletes themselves, do they still go to heaven?

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Okay, for the first thing that I want to say here, bro, is this if somebody's watching this and you're struggling with like self-hatred or thinking about committing suicide, please reach out to somebody. Um stop watching this right now. Make a phone call to somebody that you trust, talk to them. You are someone who God has created with um incredible purpose and God loves you, He is for you. I understand life might be very difficult and challenging for you right now, and you need to stay. Um, and uh if we could be a help to you, an encouragement to you, we would love to do that. You can shoot us online too, and we'd love to connect with you as well. And actually, I think that there is a suicide prevention phone number actually that we can throw up right now as a banner. That'd be really great for that person. Now, to the question specifically, if a Christian commits suicide, is it hell forever for them? Is this the unforgivable sin? Is really the question. Um, I don't think that it is. And the reason why I don't think that it is is Jesus, when he talks about the unforgivable sin, he talks about it in the context of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, um, which is referring to somebody who over their entire life denies the work of Christ in their life to draw them to repentance and surrender to the Lordship of Jesus by his Holy Spirit. It's somebody that's saying, No, I don't want to acknowledge Jesus' Lordship, no, I don't want to repent of sin, no, I don't want to follow Jesus, I don't want to do those things. That's the context of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. That's the unforgivable sin, and it's unforgivable because you don't go through the gate of repentance to actually receive forgiveness. So that it's not, it's not self-deletion, it's not suicide. Um I I think that when somebody kills themselves, it is the greatest tragedy. Um, and it's growing most often out of great pain. Um God doesn't want someone to do that. That would not be his uh his will for someone, but I don't think that it's an unforgivable sin, and I don't think that that person goes to hell if they're truly a Christian. Yeah. If they're truly a Christian, they die and they stand before Christ and He heals their heart and they get eternity with Jesus. Yeah. Uh forever.

SPEAKER_01 18:57

Can you think of like if you are truly a Christian, like why would you get pushed to that point?

SPEAKER_00 19:06

I think a lot of reasons, man. I I I think that there are demonic reasons. I think that there are uh reasons attached to just the fallen nature of humanity. Um, so we could we could maybe break those down. So John 10, Jesus says that the thief comes to steal and to kill and to destroy. Jesus also says about Satan that he's a murderer. And so he's a liar, he's a murderer, and a lot of times suicidal ideation, it uh it it comes from demonic forces of evil that are oppressing and tormenting people. I really think that that's the case. In fact, you you go back to dude, go back to Judas' story. So Judas committed suicide, that's how he his life ended. He betrays Christ for 30 pieces of silver. Yeah. Um, Jesus is crucified, he has a guilty conscience, he buys a field and then he hangs himself, falls down, bowels gush out, horrible way to die. Yeah. And it was through uh through suicide. And so, what's interesting about the Judas story, before he gets to that point of hanging himself and ending his life, at the Last Supper, Jesus singles the guy out and he says, What you're about to do, do quickly. And if you look carefully at the text, it says, Then Satan entered into him. Yeah. So the dude was demonized, and then within a very short period of time, he ends up ending his life. So I do think that there is a very serious demonic reality that is uh in operation here. Like uh I would say probably 100% of the time, man. Even even when it's fallen world and you know, chemical imbalance and medical depression-oriented stuff, I still think that demons are involved in that and just putting fuel on that torment fire. We'll talk more about that um in a second. But certainly in Judas's case, you know, like we could we could draw a pretty straight clean line between the dude being demonized and then the guy ending his life. And tragically, as a pastor, I mean, I've seen I've seen people do this. Yeah. Um where, you know, it's like it's absolutely tragic. Yeah. And I do think that demons are involved. Now, with when it comes to fallen, sinful world stuff, the truth is we live in a fallen, broken world. Yeah. Um, and our bodies decay, they fall apart, and they die. Um the brain is capable of sickness and disease just like the rest of the body. And that can look like deep depression that can grow into I don't want to live anymore. Yeah. Um, and so in that case, in all cases. Cases again, I want to encourage people to get help and reach out and talk to somebody. For sure. Have you had but I guess what I'm trying to say is just because somebody does have a bent towards, you know, I want to end my life, it it it doesn't necessarily I'm not saying that that person the reason why is because they've, you know, they've got a demon that they're packing around. That's why it's happening. We treat that and then all the problems go away. Sometimes that's just not the case. Oftentimes it is. Um, and as a pastor, I have seen people where it's like they've come into my office and you know they they have uh suicidal ideation, they're contemplating living, and then we go after that spirit of death, and that thing breaks off of them. Yeah, they encounter God's love and they're wonderfully delivered, and it's like blinders fall off. So I think within this conversation, we also I also always want to bring up like, hey, you know what? Like, if it is demonic, regardless of what it is, Christ loves you, um, Jesus can do something about this, and and we've seen some pretty amazing things happen. And there's some great resources out there. You know, we've got the Hope Center in Everett here in Washington State. Um, got some other really great places that people can go to get some real life practical help, counseling, therapy, and uh do some work necessary to move through this thing.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

Do you have you had someone in the church that you were like somewhat close with do that?

SPEAKER_00 23:26

Yeah, yeah. Um I can think of one guy in particular, and what's the most tragic about this is he was teetering concerning his faith. Yeah. And uh this was in recent years, and he was kind of going for back and forth between a couple different things, and he came up and one Sunday and and I was sharing the good news of Jesus with him, and he seemed to respond to it in a positive way. And um, I know he was I knew that he was going through some stuff. I had no idea that it was to the level of like not wanting to live anymore. It just seemed to me, and what he was telling me was he was just stressed out about trying to figure out, you know, what to believe about God and how to order his life. And then that week I got a call from a family member that said that he he's dead, yeah, that he he ended his life tragically, and it's so I mean that that does something to you, dude, and that did something to me where you don't know what people are going through. Yeah, and this is why part of the reason after every single one of our services we say this thing, it's not just like a nice tag. Remember to be kind to those around you, yeah. Because you don't know what people are navigating through. For sure. People can look a certain way, they can present themselves a certain way, like this guy was where I just had I just had no idea. Yeah, and I and and I remember after this experience, dude, I was talking with the Lord about it, like, man, how did I miss that? Yeah, you know, like I don't ever want to have that happen again. I don't ever want to have somebody on the other end of me going through that much inner torment and turmoil and not know about it, and then get a call that week where they're no longer here because they ended up taking their own life.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

So I think it's a good reminder to you know, we don't know what people are going through.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:29

And life is hard. And you check on your people, dude. Check on your friends.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

Yeah. You cannot even know. I don't know if we keep this in or not. I don't know if I've even shared this with you. Or Emma. I don't know if I've shared this. Um but this was in like 20. I think it was in 2020. I want to say like end of summer of 2020, and I was like really going through it, and it was when I was going through my concussions and stuff. Um really bad like migraines, really bad insomnia. Um very like just unhappy in general. Um and I remember just being like really yeah, just kind of done with with life. And um this is when I was working at the airport at the time. And I remember I like planned out how I was gonna do it. Um and so after after work I'd like parked in that Fred Meyer parking lot, and I had like a it was like a weird piece almost. It was like uh the pain will finally be over. Um and it was weird too, because I was looking like around at people and I was like, no one knows what's like about to happen. Like this is this is raps. Um and that was like kind of crazy. Like a really weird feeling.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

Um like that peace feeling and and then and Yeah, it was like or specifically I mean both of them. Are you talking more about the peace or the the idea that nobody knows what you're about to do?

SPEAKER_01 27:14

I guess the idea that like nobody knows. Like this is I'm I will no longer be here and nobody knows that like that's what's going on. And it's weird that you can just be like a guy walking into a store and like no one can know that. Um But what I d uh what stopped me from doing it was because I I had to film this is when you guys were doing online service and you'd film the worship on a separate time and I was like, oh I don't want to flick out on that. And so I didn't do it, um and I went I didn't like tell anyone, and I just kind of went to film the thing because I had that right after and I completely forgot about it.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

Wait, what was that? What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_01 28:01

You guys used to record worship for New Song on Thursdays. And then so the live stream could be on Sundays.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

So that was a Thursday night, obviously, and then you ended up going to church here and filming that. Yeah. Did you have like a sense of God's presence when you were here, like filming stuff, or was it just like I don't wanna I don't wanna flake out on these guys?

SPEAKER_01 28:27

I was so like in such a weird out-of-it-head space. Like that whole week was like a blur. Like I was I was just so not happy, and like I had so many like just really awful thoughts that it felt just like almost like you have that like muffledness over your thoughts and your senses, and then like like a gray veil over everything. And so I like I don't really remember much of that day. I remember like I think going home and then just kind of like I was watching something like with my family, and then ended up leaving, like, and just kind of going on like a night drive and like talking with who was my girlfriend at the time, and then they I told her what was going on, and then Noah came and like met us at her house. And yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

Oh man, Mike, I'm so glad you didn't go through with that, bro. I love you. I'm so glad you're still here. Yeah, wow, it's a m that crazy story, dude. Yeah. That's that's I'm I'm so glad that you did not go through with with that. That would have been absolutely tragic. And the thing about self-deletion, dude, is it's the it's so many things. It's it's the one thing you don't recover from. Yeah. You know, I'm glad I didn't. You can you can recover from everything else in life. Yeah. That's the one thing that you don't recover from. Yeah. And I'm glad that you stuck around, man. For sure. The other thing that's that's you know, that that muffled headspace, that it's kind of like a um I don't know, you sort of the the people that I've talked to, and I know everybody's experience is gonna be different with this, when it has been demonic, yeah, that's that's a part of like what people will talk about where it's just kind of like an alternate sort of reality, visionary experience, you know, like there's there's just a suppressing of emotion or uh just some weirdness that kind of happens for you. Was it out of nowhere? I think was that building up over the world.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

I think it was it was like building up for sure, but yeah, it was really weird.

SPEAKER_00 30:55

What is one thing that was standing out to me about what you were saying was the isolation component. And it reminded me of this story where Jesus is casting demons out of a a dude that's among the tombs, yeah. And it's the legion, yeah, you know, which is like a legion, is I think it's like 6,000 soldiers or something like that in Roman military terms. So Jesus goes to this guy who's demonized by thousands of demons. Yeah, he's among the tombs. People tried to pin him down, throw him in prison, whatever, jail him, but he would break the chains because he had like a superhuman strength and he was really violent. And it says, I believe it's in Mark's gospel that he lived among the tombs and he cut himself with stones. Yeah. Which is really that's really interesting to me because I think one of the great strategies that one of the great demonic strategies of people that are going through mental illness of, you know, like a suicidal ideation when it is demonic. Yeah, which I think demons are involved 100% of the time, um, is this push towards isolation, this push towards not talking about it. And uh, and then that's when they can really begin to attack. And and I and and that's what this guy was he was self-harming, dude. He was cutting himself. Yeah. And and Jesus delivered him, and then he was restored to his right mind. So um, and we've had the joy of seeing people get delivered of this stuff, which is when it when it did happen with that one guy, I think it was more shocking and more jarring because we've seen more people get delivered and healed and set free, whether supernatural or through, you know, uh getting a treatment plan, um, doing an inpatient thing, and we're praying for them that way. But it's just that that's the typical story. And so it's tragic when somebody does it, dude. It's really sad. Yeah. For sure. It shouldn't be.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

It's crazy to think about how a lot of that is demonic stuff, because I did I struggled with the self-harm stuff throughout like from 2020 to 2021. And I don't think it was till like I became like really honest with everyone about it that or like my parents and people I trusted and then got like prayed over that it like went away. Um and yeah, that like the antidepressants didn't help none of that helped. But it was like inviting people in.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

Well, I mean, come on, think about it. Like if it's if it's demonic, if it is demonic, which again, disclaimer, I'm not saying that it is all of the time. I'm saying that all the time demons are involved, but it could be uh, you know, a a a certain person has a proclivity towards suicidal ideation and self-harm because of mental chemical imbalance in the brain. That's totally legit. Um, and I do think that demons come to try to torment that person and make it worse. But when it is like demonic, when demons are involved, what is taking an antidepressant gonna do to get them to go away? Like it's not, it's not gonna do anything. And I'm not saying get off the get off the pills. That's not at all what I'm saying. But we're treating uh a we're trying to get at a fundamental issue, which is a chemical imbalance when there's actually a spiritual component that's happening. And you can't take a pill to get that to go away. You need the power of the Holy Spirit to break that off of somebody. Yeah. Like you need the presence of God. If it's a spiritual issue, it requires a spiritual answer. And so we can't just expect to take some pill and then the spiritual issue is going to be taken care of. It's like this uh there I'm going through here at New Song with our our preachers, a book called Preaching and Preachers by Martin Lloyd Jones, who's this brilliant guy. Great book. Um and he gives this illustration about you know how in our culture we have a sickness that the Bible calls sin, where you know, we get isolated, we get lonely, we get discouraged, we get depressed, um, we have a lack of purpose. And so what we do is we treat the symptoms of those issues with, you know, uh therapy or you know, money and hedonism and comfort and travel and relationships and friendships, all good things generally. Yeah. But the problem is it doesn't solve the fundamental issue of the human soul, which is where all of those issues grew out of, which is our sin nature. And only the gospel can do that, only Jesus Christ can do that. Yeah. Um, Jesus is the savior for sin. There is no other savior. It's not a pill, it's not a therapist, it's not a worldview, it's not, you know, Buddhism, New Age spiritualism, it's not DMT, it's not, you know, and freaking going to the other realm and encountering these entities that people encounter there and then coming out totally different and changed and forever healed. And and uh right, like it's there's deeper issues, and it is sin, and Jesus Christ is the one true answer for all of that. And so as illustration, talk about that is like if you have a stomach cancer, you go to a doctor, he gives you aspirin because you're in physical pain. That's called malpractice. And you could actually bleed out, and that person could die. But you don't treat somebody who's sick by just addressing the symptom. You want to figure out what the fundamental issue is. Well, the issue is this guy's got stomach cancer, and we need to cut this thing out, we need to do chemo, we need to be more aggressive with this, and aspirin isn't gonna do anything. Um, so you there has to be proper diagnosis for proper treatment. And and the same thing with with this stuff, dude, is a lot of times there there are very powerful demonic spirits that are involved. And if we try to only treat it with physical answers and means, we might be able to bring a measure of reprieve and relief, but until we address the demonic spirit that is tormenting this person, we don't do them the greatest good that we can.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

Yeah. Yeah, it's good. What would you say to the guy or girl who is continually living in sexual sin but not doing anything about it, whether it's sleeping with their girlfriend porn?

SPEAKER_00 37:33

Uh well, number one, I'm really questioning if that person is a Christian. Go read first John. Yeah. He who makes a practice of sinning is not born from above, right? Like John makes that super clear. If you have a practice of sinning and there isn't grief over that sin, I seriously question whether this person is born again. I'm not concerned, man, about the person where it's like, you know, they're they've been a porn addict for however long they've met Jesus and they're doing everything that they can to mortify that sin. They're praying, they're asking God to help them. They're working with the pastor, they're getting some counseling, they're getting prayed over by their Christian community. Um, they're wrestling this thing to the ground, they hate it, they want it out, you know, they sin and then they repent again and they feel awful about repenting. And I'm not worried about that person because I think that that person is it, I would call and qualify that as a besetting sin. Yeah. It's not a habitual unrepentant sin. The only sin that we're not forgiven from as Christians is the unrepentant sin. Yeah. So to be a Christian is not to cease from sinning for the rest of your life. That's not what it means to be a Christian. What it does mean is that you are going to find yourself on a process of increasingly becoming like Jesus in your character and your conduct by the power of the Holy Spirit. It doesn't mean that you're not you're going to be perfect right out the gate. It's actually going to take a lifetime and a face-to-face meeting with Jesus Christ where you get a new nature to be made perfect. Um, but it does mean that we are going to progressively become more like Jesus as we bring our sin issues to the light with Jesus in prayer, with our Christian community, with spiritual leadership, and we work to put that stuff to death. So the person that's like watching porn, claiming to be a Christian, showing up to church, taking communion, not convicted about it, dude. I I honestly I I'm questioning whether that person is actually saved. And what I would say to them is, what gospel did you receive? Because it certainly wasn't the Christian one that called you to repent of your sin.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

Yeah. What if it's like habitual sin that they're caught in where like they do want to stop, but it seems like they keep falling back into it.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

And I would say that that's besetting. I would say that that's a besetting sin. John also talks about this idea of sin that leads to death and sin that doesn't lead to death in 1 John. Great book, by the way. Very short, but packs a really big punch. And I would say that that that's a key distinction right there. Somebody who is on the pathway of repentance and following Jesus, they have a sin issue that is recurring in their life. As long as they are uh repenting, walking in the light as Jesus is in the light, and doing what they can to get that thing out and asking God to continually remove it from them. I'm not I'm not concerned about that person. Keep going. And I would say that the New Testament is not opposed to effort, it is opposed to earning. So Peter talks about this idea make every effort to add to your faith virtue, which is godliness of character. Yeah. Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount, you know, he calls us to spiritual violence against sin. And so I don't want somebody to listen to what I'm saying and then, you know, kind of adopt this lazy relationship with the sin issues in their life. Like, dude, we got to fear God. We got to reverence God. Like, I don't want to entertain something in my life that Christ died to forgive me from. That's really serious. And if you look in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says, Hey, you know what? If your right arm causes you to sin, cut it off, dude. If your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. Um, he's calling us to spiritual violence against sin. He's not being literal right here. This is a common first century rabbinic literary device called hyperbole, where Jesus is being very intense with the language that he's using, not to call for uh a literal response to it, but to make a spiritual point, which is be violent against the sin in your life. Cut it out, take it seriously. So I want to be careful here because I don't want somebody to get the idea that, you know, like, well, as long as you're becoming better, you know, like you're like freaking cut it out, dude. You we when we sin, Micah, here's the thing: you are a free will human being. Nobody put a gun to your head and made you log onto your computer and go to the freaking porn site and watch porn again. You chose to do that, or you made a series of bad decisions. Nobody, you know, you didn't just like black out and wake up in bed with your girlfriend naked, you know, like, well, how did you get here? I don't know. We just we're having sex now. Like you, there was a series of events that led to that happening, and so don't don't be an idiot, don't be stupid. Like sin always comes from stupid decision making.

SPEAKER_01 42:37

Yeah, and I would I would add to that. Um, I think what helps too is cutting it off like five steps ahead, like adding guardrails to your life to where when you do have moments of clarity, like take action.

SPEAKER_00 42:51

Come on, dude, say that.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

Like make it harder to do it. Like, if you have a moment of clarity where it's like, hey, I really want to stop porn, can you help me? And then give your friend your phone, let them set a screen time password, block the sites on your phone. Um, don't sleep with your phone in your room, don't scroll on Instagram at night, like avoid it. Like, figure out what triggers it and then how the spiral starts.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

Don't say that, cut it off there. Say that. And I think why that's so brilliant, bro, and I'm so glad you said that, is we see this in Jesus' temptation. By the way, temptation isn't a sin. Yeah, it's not a sin to be tempted. Um, Jesus Christ was tempted and yet he remained without sin. So we need to make a distinction between temptation and sin, and in Christ's temptation, at the very end of it, in Luke 4, Matthew 4, what we see is the devil departs him. And it says, I believe specifically in Luke's gospel, you can fact check me for which one here. But it says the devil departed from him until an opportune time, which means that Satan is watching and he's looking and he's waiting for opportune times to bring. Bring temptation to sin to the table because he understands the human condition and he's he's been watching human beings for a long time and he also he gets you more than you do. And so, you know, like that that uh Super Bowl commercial, he gets us, right? It's like you know, it's they're saying Jesus gets us, he understands us. Uh and and the truth is Satan gets us also, and he's waiting in the shadows to bring temptation to sin in an opportune moments. So for example, with pornography, a lot of times for people, it hits them when they're lonely. Yeah. Or when they're stressed out. You know, so when when dudes are lonely, it's like, okay, you need to be aware that if that's when you're gonna have a vulnerable moment, you gotta recognize you're lonely, make a good decision right there to uh not engage with the specific set of behaviors that lead to watching porn.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

Yeah. Yeah, and I think as you become aware of it, you can like sense when it's coming with something like that, or just with habitual sin in general.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

I agree, and that's part of growing. That's that's part of maturing as a follower of Jesus. And again, it's not a sin to be tempted, it's a sin to do something against God's word when we are tempted.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

Yeah. Can a Catholic be saved?

SPEAKER_00 45:24

Yes, a Catholic can be saved. I believe that you could be a Catholic can be saved, Eastern Orthodox and be saved, or a Protestant and be saved. Uh, as long as you have a clear understanding of the gospel, that you're a sinner, you need a savior, that Christ lived the perfect life that you couldn't die the death that you deserve, rose again, defeated death, and by faith and trust in him is the only means by which we are reconciled to our creator and forgiven of sin. Um, and uh and I I believe that you can have that profession of faith as a Catholic. I got uh friends that are Catholic, and we disagree on some things that I think are really important, but they're my brother and my sister in Christ, and we're gonna enjoy Jesus forever uh in the new creation. Same thing with Eastern Orthodoxy, same thing with uh Protestants. And the truth is, dude, just because somebody's claiming to be a Catholic doesn't actually mean that they're saved. That's the flip side of this coin. And I can also turn that against the Protestants and say, hey man, just because you're a Protestant, you claim to be a Protestant or a non-denominational Christian or a Baptist or a Presbyterian or a Pentecostal, it doesn't mean that you're actually born again because you're not saved by denominational affiliation. You're saved by Christ.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

Yeah. What do you say to the people who choose Catholicism over non-denominational because they feel like Catholics take it more seriously?

SPEAKER_00 46:48

That is a great question. And I actually talked to several people about that this last week. What seems to be happening is there is, you know, the people, in particular young 20-somethings, 30-somethings, seem to be gravitating to um Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy, or even like an Anglicanism more than kind of a traditional non-denominational Christian church like we would be familiar with, where you've got the, you know, it's a it's a cool trendy pastor with the leather jacket and the smoke, $2,000 shoes on. Yeah, right. Like preachers and sneakers, you know, type guys. Um, and I think a part of the reason why, and that's not the case all across the board, we're a Protestant non-denominational church, which means we're not Catholic and we're not Eastern Orthodox. Um we're growing and we're connecting with young people at an increasing measure. Every week, new people are showing up, which is great. So it's not true across the board, but generally speaking, there does seem to be a trend. And I think you're right, bro. I think it's because these are more quiet, reflective uh traditions that have more of a serious bent, in particular around communion. Yeah. So the Eucharist. Um, and I really, and there is some stuff. Here's what I will say. Keep in mind I'm a Protestant. What I will say is that Protestants, we do need to learn from our Catholic and our Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters around the seriousness of the Lord's table. Yeah. Um, what's really interesting is if you look at the history of Protestantism, 500 years ago, we kind of split off of the Catholic Church for really good reasons. We can talk about later. Um, one thing that we did where I believe that we erred is for all of church history up until that point, Christians were convinced across the board that communion, there was at least some mysterious transmission of divine grace that happens when you partake of it. Um, that the bread and the cup, uh, you are taking into yourself the body and the blood of Jesus Christ. Um, the Catholics get a little crazy with transubstantiationism, meaning that it becomes the literal blood and the literal body of Christ. Um, but for 1500 years up until that point, we were at least, everybody was on the same page that this is this is a mysterious transfer of divine grace. Jesus Christ is really present in the emblems in some sort of mysterious way. And then there was this Protestant reformer, I'm forgetting his name right now, kind of a weird last name, but he he ended up being credited with this memorial feast idea where it's remembrance only, you know, where Jesus says, Do this in remembrance of me, and then he serves communion to his disciples. And so for us, it became for Protestants for 500 years, it generally has been more of a remembrance-only type of an experience where, you know, it's kind of like a memorial, if you've been to one, where you've got the slideshow of the person's life. You know, here's them when they were a kid, and then they're, you know, in their 20s and 30s, and here's their person they were married to, and kids and all that sort of stuff. And then you've got their slideshow, and then it's done, and it's like, okay, we're remembering them, and everybody's really sad because they're no longer here, and it's awful.

SPEAKER_01 50:26

Uh, eating their ashes or nothing like that.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

Well, hopefully not. And that's what communion has been like for Protestants for like 500 years, and that's not good. That's not good. It's remembering only we just sort of feel guilty about the bad things that we've done, which repentance is totally a part of communion. But we strip it of his mis of its mystery and its seriousness. And uh, I think that there's way too many people in Protestant churches that take communion and they do what Paul says and they drink judgment on themselves. Yeah. Because they don't recognize that, man, this this no, this is serious. Like, if you're gonna partake of Christ in these emblems, like, dude, that you need to slow down, check your heart, make sure you're not harboring unforgiveness towards somebody, recognize that you are taking in the bread, which is symbolic of the body of Christ, the cup, the blood of Christ, and uh and this is this is serious stuff. So I respect that. And I think that uh I wish Protestants would uh uh you know maybe come back a little bit more to a Lutheran understanding of communion. Yeah. Which is where where I would be. I'm not Lutheran, but you know, like real real presence, like Christ is really in the emblems in some sort of mysterious way. I don't think it's like literally becoming the body and the blood of Jesus, but I I do hold to a real presence idea.

SPEAKER_01 51:48

If a guy is like let's say like habitually watching porn and then taking communion, like what is is he just drinking like what is drinking judgment on yourself even look like?

SPEAKER_00 52:02

Yeah, I think I think it's well if you're a if you're a non-believer and you're taking communion, you're drinking judgment on yourself because you have no share in Christ, like what are you doing taking communion if you're not actually a part of Christ's body? Yeah. Um so you're drinking judgment on yourself. Um number two, this would be, and you can look at Paul's writings, First Corinthians 10, 11, elsewhere on communion, he talks about rightfully discerning the body of Christ, um which is us collectively. Um, you know, if there's uh sorry, what was your question, dude? That was a good question. I'm getting off track here.

SPEAKER_01 52:43

If like you're in habitual sin, what does drinking on your like drinking judgment on yourself look like? What does that mean?

SPEAKER_00 52:51

Yeah, if you have somebody that is consistently sinning and they're not repenting and they're taking communion, they're drinking the wrath of God on themselves, literally. Yeah. I think so. Yeah, and and this is why Paul says, like, look to the Corinthian church, he says at one point, 1 Corinthians 10 11, um, this is why some of you are weak and some of you have gotten sick and some of you have died, is because you're taking communion in an unworthy manner. You're not repenting of sin, you're not like putting forth um effort to walk in holiness. You don't have the fear of God, you have bitterness and offense towards other Jesus followers. You are going to, in in their context, you know, pagan Roman temples and pinching off incense to Caesar and worshiping other gods and then partaking of the Lord's table. So I think it's it's very serious. And I do think that people still get sick and die prematurely, just like Paul talks about, because they take communion in an unworthy manner. Interesting. And so I would say that that person is very much drinking judgment on themselves. Um, they need to repent of their sin. And if they're willing to repent of their sin, then by all means come forward to the to the Lord's table, receive his mercy and forgiveness, and ask for his grace and empower them to walk in freedom from that sin by the by his spirit. And uh, I believe that there is an impartation of grace when you take communion in that direction. So, but yeah, it's really serious, dude. And and this is what grieves me every single weekend here at New Song when we've and I've talked about this openly with our church. What grieves me is I I know for a fact that we have people that get up and take communion because they're more freaked out about what somebody's gonna think about them if they stay in their chair than getting up and taking it and drinking judgment on themselves.

SPEAKER_01 54:39

Yeah. I think you should do a whole sermon on it and then see at the end.

SPEAKER_00 54:42

We should. We've done it before.

SPEAKER_01 54:44

Not like not like look and see, but I'm just curious like if people would like hold it with more reverence, because I feel like we just don't hear about it enough.

SPEAKER_00 54:54

It's true, man. Yeah, yeah. It really is true. Yeah, and it's a I I try to preach on it at least once a year. Yeah. It's a good thing to revisit.

SPEAKER_01 55:01

I think it's I think with like the size, like how quick the church is growing, I feel like it'd be appropriate to do it almost like twice a year or quarterly or something.

SPEAKER_00 55:10

Well, see, that's actually a very Protestant reflex of yours that I don't totally agree with. The reason why is because Jesus says, as often as you do this, do this in remembrance of me. You get to Acts 2, 42 through 47, and it says that the church was devoted to several things, the apostles' teaching, the fellowship, the prayers, and the breaking of bread. And scholars will point out the breaking of bread, that's the communion meal. So the early church was devoted to it. And the word for devoted, it's like I mean, it's like intensity, intentionality, repetition, focus, consistent energy going to that thing. Like, like a like a professional athlete. That's the type of word that's being used right there. So the early church, the church at its birth, birth was the church at its best, is devoted to communion. So uh they're taking it all the time. And it's actually a Protestant reflex that, you know, that does it twice a year or once a quarter.

SPEAKER_01 56:11

Um I was talking about preaching about it rather than taking it. Oh, preaching about it.

SPEAKER_00 56:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's yeah, yeah. Probably probably could benefit from it, dude. And I try to get a little mini sermon in there at the end of each sermon, where, you know, because everything leads up to the Lord's table, yeah. Um, where we warn people and we admonish people and we encourage people. Don't do this uh without realizing what you're doing. Yeah. Check your heart and uh recognize that like these are spiritual realities that are weighty. But yeah, you're probably right. We could do it more.

SPEAKER_01 56:48

Do you think people that sit in the back are still saved up in the rafters?

SPEAKER_00 56:55

I think the further the closer you get to the preacher, you're better off.

SPEAKER_01 57:01

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 57:02

The anointing is up there. I think the the closer you sit to the guy preaching the message, the closer you'll be to Jesus in heaven.

SPEAKER_01 57:12

Cause yeah, we even got there's like different kind of communion up there. Because we had to sit in the nosebleeds this past week.

SPEAKER_00 57:20

You guys get the nasty stuff, dude. I don't know why the team does that, bro. That's that'll kill you.

SPEAKER_01 57:24

Mm-hmm. It's like styrofoam, I think.

SPEAKER_00 57:27

Dude, you could you could go and sit in your garage with your car on and just put your face right up to your exhaust pipe and breathe that in for five, ten seconds. Minutes, and be better off than taking that formaldehyde infused fake grape juice and styrofoam cracker. Yeah. It's it's shipped from China.

SPEAKER_01 57:58

Thank you guys for listening or watching. Uh, you can find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, uh Audible, wherever you can listen to podcasts, we're gonna be there. Um follow us on Instagram, send us some questions, and we'll get them answered in the next episode.