Hooked on Nicotine: We Fell For It So You Don't Have To

We are kicking off with our first mini series on recreational and prescription drugs. In this episode we talk about nicotine, primarily vaping. We share our personal experiences with vaping, what it felt like, why it's so easy to get hooked, and why we are just over it. 

Transcript

Why We Started A Drugs Series

SPEAKER_02 0:03

Uh welcome back to Catch Up with Kyle Cohen. We are, I don't know what episode we're on, but this is the drugs episode.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Okay, we gotta hold up on that though. So how we got to that point though. Right. Yeah, so we've recorded a couple episodes last time. It was horrible.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

It was terrible. And while we were recording, I think we knew that it was terrible.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

But yeah, we tried to put them out, but it was just too bad, and we couldn't. So we're trying to make it up for it this week by having good episodes.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

And that's why we missed it would be now one episode.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

Yeah, depending on when this one comes out.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Yeah. Our goal, our vision is to have these mini series that could last anywhere from two to three episodes with an overarching theme. And then within that theme, we have subtopics. And we want to make it more organized and more engaging so that we have a bit more interesting stuff to talk about.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

Yeah. Since we're in the very early stages of this podcast, we figure it's a good idea to try this is the time to try stuff out, you know, see what sticks, see what we like, ultimately see where we want this to go.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

That's why we decided on the topic of drugs, specifically recreational substances, including both legal and illegal and prescription drugs as well. So today our focus will be on I guess three main things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

This will be part one of two or three. Yeah. And today we'll be talking about nicotine, weed, cannabis, marijuana, and finally alcohol.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Yeah. So I don't know. Uh what are your experiences? What do you want to start with? Do you want to start with nicotine? Let's start with, yeah, let's start with nicotine, alcohol, and then we'll move on to weed, cannabis.

First Nicotine Hits And Peer Pressure

SPEAKER_02 1:58

So nicotine. I first started. So I've obviously I've smoked nicotine, cigarettes, and vape. And I first started when with a cigarette at a party, just around a party. Don't exactly remember when. But after that cigarette, never really like got into smoking it. It was just a one-time thing at a party, you know. Then another party, a friend had a jewel, which is like ancient technology at this point. I'm sure you remember jewels. I do, yeah. Yeah, a friend had a jewel and I hit his jewel. And that was like my first step into vapes. And then I got my own jewel, then I got my own vapes, got addicted to nicotine. And a couple years back I quit, thankfully, luckily, because it was it was terrible, you know. There was there was no point, there was never any point. And I've got a few pros and cons ready for a nicotine as well.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

But yeah, I had a question. So when you first tried that cigarette, yeah, what was it like? Like how did you like what was the taste? Did you like it or not? What was that experience? Good question.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

I I don't think I liked it. I think even if I have like a cigarette today, yeah. I say I quit, by that I mean like I don't I don't ever buy it or do it myself. But if I'm like at a party or like, you know, very rarely, very, very rarely, if someone offers me a cigarette, I might say yes and I might try it out just to go with the moment, you know. But yeah, even today if I have a cigarette, I don't necessarily like it. I don't really get the don't really understand the flavor. Yeah, don't really get any of it.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

Like do you like do you get like a head rush? Do you get like like dopamine hit?

SPEAKER_02 3:35

Actually from a cigarette, I never have. Oh yeah, I've never gotten like because you know when you hit like a vape and and hit it real hard, yeah, you do get a head rush.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:45

It's like 10 seconds of dizziness and it like feels funny, and sometimes that's kind of nice. But with a cigarette, I I've I've never had that happen.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Okay. Yeah. So you're the type of person who actually didn't start using like vapes as a means to quit smoking.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

Not at all. 100% as like a peer pressure thing. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Just because my friends were doing it and it was all around me, I fell into the peer pressure, unfortunately, and got into it. And I regret it totally. You know, if I if I could go back and never have done it, I would. Because uh, it really brought nothing into my life, you know. It it never really because a lot of people use it for you know, tons of reasons that they tell themselves.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Yeah, for vaping specifically, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:30

Yeah, vaping or smoking cigarettes, you know, nicotine in general, but I never got like any kind of benefit from it. Yeah, even in the moment, I don't think I was getting benefit from from it. Yeah. Like while I was doing it, I wasn't even thinking that I'm getting a benefit from it.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

I was just doing it to keep doing it. Well, what was your I mean, because you you didn't like cigarettes, like both the taste and you didn't get the euphoria that people say they get when they when they smoke cigarettes. But what about vapes then?

SPEAKER_02 4:56

Yeah, so vapes, I mean, the flavors definitely got me, I think. Because if it tasted as bad as cigarettes, like I I would never seek out cigarettes just because you know it it doesn't taste good, it doesn't feel good. But then the vape, the vape juice flavors, they they they did get me with that, you know. Yeah, the the fruity flavors and the mango and the ice and whatever. I feel like an absolute loser thinking about it and talking about it now, and I should, you know, it's like loser behavior. But yeah, the the flavorings did get me, and that was probably part of the the addiction.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

Do you think do you think the flavor is probably maybe like 80% of the reason why people get so hooked on to it?

SPEAKER_02 5:34

I don't know. I uh no, I think it's the nicotine itself, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

Probably, yeah, but probably the the flavor adds to it quite a bit though.

SPEAKER_02 5:41

Yeah, I think the flavor probably adds to it quite a bit. Because you know, I uh I remember back in those days, if someone had like a shitty, a shitty jewel pot flavor, no one would really want to hit it. You always go to the whoever has the better flavor.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

So yeah, I think the flavors do play a big part in it, especially for especially for younger people. I think.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

Yeah. Because you're saying for yourself, you saw almost really no benefits for you. No, not at all. Low smoking cigarettes and vapes. So, I mean, if you try to look at it for the general population, do you think there is there's any benefits? I guess like vape, I could see some pros, but are there any benefits to cigarettes?

SPEAKER_02 6:20

From my point of view, not really. Because I don't have a ton of experience with cigarettes because the people don't uh the people around us in our age group, it's not really common to smoke cigarettes. Not at all, actually. Yeah, vaping is super common. Very common, very I actually I don't even know anymore.

SPEAKER_00 6:35

Are people our age vaping? Like 30-year-olds? Honestly, I don't think not any, like not as much. It definitely when we were younger, yeah. It was literally everywhere. Yeah, everywhere. Yeah, but now like even our friends, they all mostly quit. Or at least are trying to try like very actively making a conscious decision to quit.

SPEAKER_02 6:53

Yeah. Yeah, I didn't I didn't see any benefits, and I can't speak too much about the positives of cigarettes, but the apparent positives of vaping, at least to the people around us, was always

Addiction Mechanics And Quitting Mindset

SPEAKER_02 7:05

stuff like stressful leave or like being able to like focus or something. Yeah. But the fact of the matter is, this product is causing you a lot of stress.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

100%, like literally biologically, it's literally like it's causing stress to your body. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

Yeah. And uh, I think I always knew my life was like so much better without it in the first place. Yeah. Uh but then when you're in like stressful situations and you're dependent on this thing, and that if you try to take away, take that away during that stressful situation, it just makes you know your body has a physiological response to it with like withdrawal syndrome symptoms and stuff. And it just makes that situation even more stressful when if you had never been on the thing in the first place.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Yeah, which makes it so scary, not only about vase, but with anything the the the withdrawal you get, you literally get dependent on it, both psychologically and biologically.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

Yeah, right. Yeah, and I was thinking of pros for for nicotine. I wrote some down, and the first thing I wrote was I can't think of a single one.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:01

Yeah, I can't think of a single pro for nicotine. There's the uh, you know, when you smoke for the first time in a really, really long time, and I mean really long time, you get like a little funny head rush, and that can be fun every now and then. But that but it's not like that's something that lasts, it's like the first hit, and then you know, that head rush is completely gone for like weeks or something.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

Yeah. Um I mean, like this is this is probably not common knowledge, but even when I do like a Google search, some pros of nicotine itself is you know, it can help with the tension. Can it? It can help with focus. Um, it could be they say it could be protective for things like dementia, Alzheimer's, and then also Parkinson's, apparently.

SPEAKER_02 8:46

That's that's believable, to be honest. You know, we're always told everything is okay within moderation. Yeah, and it seems like you know, that's true for this as well. Yeah. But clearly nicotine in our society is not moderated whatsoever. Yeah, no, it's horrible. Yeah, it's available everywhere, so easy to come across.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

Yeah. I think especially in our age and now, it's even more dangerous because with the introduction of vapes, like the flavorful vapes, because it's so easy to smoke, like the children are addictive from a very early age. And I literally think that's almost a gateway to for them to do other drugs or substances.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

You think so?

SPEAKER_00 9:25

I think so too.

SPEAKER_02 9:26

Yeah. I mean, when you're like smoking something, anything, that makes smoking anything else seem a whole lot easier, you know.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Yeah, and like I mean, I've seen it in news reports, like they say people are getting hospitalized for things like popcorn lungs. Wow. Like kids because they kids. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because would I I read that, like one one vape. I don't actually I don't even know how to quantify it, but one full vape is equivalent to multiple packs of cigarettes. And because it's so flavorful, it's so like tasty, I guess. They would finish that vape in like a day or two.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

No way.

SPEAKER_00 10:03

And that's equivalent to smoking like two, three packs a day. Yeah. I mean, I've I've known people who go through vapes a day in a day, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:12

And they're like the the big vapes, like a jewel pod outside. Oh, okay. Yeah, actually, yeah, I didn't know I I also knew people that would go through a pod a day, which is intense. Yeah. Because I think a pod is supposed to represent one pack of cigarettes, wasn't it? Back in those days.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

Yes, the jewel. I I remember reading reading it. And I think like I mean, if you look at the stats, like cigarettes themselves, like people smoking, it's gone down. Yeah. So I mean, vape probably had some sort of like contributory factor to it. Yeah. Like, of course, like there's of course like the health literacy, like people are more aware of the health consequences, like cancer specifically. But I I I like to think like things like nicotine gum and now vapes to a certain extent help people quit. Because I've I have a friend who was a smoker and they were able to quit because of now vaping, and then they transitioned from vaping to nicotine pouches. And now they're weaning off nicotine pouches pretty well. Yeah. So I've seen successes for that. How how bad are nicotine pouches? I mean, I think they're still bad personally. Probably real bad for your gums and stuff. Yeah, that's probably it's horrible. Like increased risk of any oral cancer. Yeah. Which which can be pretty difficult to treat. The gum linings also recede, which is also bad. And I mean, nicotine itself is there's a lot of health negatives to it too. So that's always comes. Does nicotine on its own cause cancer? I from what I remember from my classes, I don't think it's like a direct causative agent of cancer. Like probably like increases the risk, but I don't think it directly causes it. Does it cause I'm sure it causes some neurological issues? In very high doses, concentrated doses. All right. I think I've read that nicotine can promote cancer cell growth though. Like once you have cancer. Yeah. I remember reading that somewhere. But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

I have a couple other cons as a layman. So it's super addictive and hard to quit. One thing I think people don't confront very often is how expensive it is to be a nicotine addict. It is super, super expensive. Maybe not on the purchase-by-purchase basis, but if you look at your bill by the end of the year, how much money you spent on nicotine products, that shit is not cheap. You know, that this is an expensive addiction. And yeah, it sucks. It's it costs a lot of money. You get terrible sleep when you're when you're smoking, terrible, terrible sleep, consistently terrible sleep. Uh, like I remember when I was addicted, I was constantly looking for ways to help myself get better better sleep. I was, you know, looking into things like melatonin every single night, which is not something you're supposed to do. Oh, while you were using like vapes? Yeah. It's like constantly taking melatonin because my sleep would be so terrible. Yeah, and it it didn't get better until I stopped smoking.

SPEAKER_00 13:03

How bad were were your like withdrawals from quitting smoking? Or I mean not smoking like cigarettes, but like vaping.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

It it was bad, but it didn't last like super long, to be honest. Because I really, really wanted to quit. I was so I had wanted to quit for like a while, and then once I had gone to the tipping point, I was like super fed up and just I don't want to do this anymore. So I only really I felt like really intense withdrawals for a couple days. Yeah. But then after getting to like the one week, two week part, two week mark, yeah, I was pretty good to be honest. It was like I was I was free from it, and then of course, every now and then I would get like some urge to drive over to the fucking shop and pick up another vape or some shit like that. Yeah, but every time I tried making that trip, I felt like such a moron that I would change course and go somewhere else. Like I wouldn't go to the the vape shop and buy another vape. Why? Because I felt like such a moron. I'm like, am I really gonna fucking do this again? Like weeks of this shit again, like shame, yeah, yeah, yeah. Shame and like I just felt so pathetic, you know. Like, yeah, the the way I finally overcame this was I started thinking, like, I can't believe I'm like being mind controlled by these fucking companies into buying their product, spending my money over and over, smoking their product over and over. I felt I felt like a fucking moron, you know. Like, yeah, I'm not gonna lose to the man, I'm gonna quit right here. I'm gonna stop this shit. Yeah, and that's eventually what to stopping.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Do you think that was the biggest motivator for you to yeah?

SPEAKER_02 14:33

I think I'm a I'm a really self-motivated guy. Yeah, like all my motivation really comes from within.

SPEAKER_00 14:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:38

So when I when I get to a point like that, I'm I'm pretty solid on it.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

Were there any big health scares for you? Because I was just actually fact-checking like nicotine itself. I think I was looking that there's no like clear relationship whether or not it increases the risk of cancer. Like, for example, apparently it's not even a carcinogen or labeled as a carcinogen. I think it's more so that as with specifically with vapes, it's like that other chemical flavoring that probably causes damage to your lung or whatever. Yeah. But I I just searched up that it doesn't, it's not actual like causal agent or carcinogen.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

Yeah, so I didn't have any personal health concerns, like nothing in my face, but of course I was aware of the constant risk I was taking and constant poor decisions that I was making by continuing to vape and being you know constantly aware of that. I guess that yeah, that did contribute for sure, uh to quitting.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

Yeah, because because I guess for you, you mentioned this many, many episodes ago, because you've you've had like collapsed lungs.

SPEAKER_02 15:42

Yes, I have. Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, I have had a collapsed lung a couple times, but I never really viewed that as related. Because the way it was explained to me by doctors was like, this is not really something that's related, it's just like an anomalous thing that happens to people with my body type, basically. So yeah, despite having the collapsed lung, I didn't really take that into consideration when thinking about quitting or not.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:07

And I guess that's like the dangers of being addicted to something. You kind of just ignore like these very obvious things that you shouldn't be ignoring.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

You know, yeah, I didn't think about that at all, and I probably should have. Someone whose lung is like collapsing over and over, probably should not be smoking.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

That's so interesting though. Hey, like this, because that probably means there's such a huge psychological element of being addicted to something.

SPEAKER_02 16:29

Yeah, it's it's it's like uh such a part of your life, such a regular part of your life that you stop thinking about it. Yeah, it's like waking up and brushing your teeth or like having meals. You know, it becomes like a you like trick yourself into thinking it's like one of your needs as a human when it's like so clearly not, you know. Because you treat it like a need, you know. I need to smoke this now, I need this now. Yeah, you know, I'm stressed, I need to hit this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

So yeah, it's do you think um because cigarettes are they're not they're not illegal, but they're regulated. Yeah. Vapes are not quite that because you know, with cigarette packaging, there's horrible images of what it could do, but vapes don't have that.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

Do you think actually do we have those like really scary packaging in Canada? We do. Oh, okay. I see at like airports and other countries, but I know what you're doing. I've never like gone and bought cigarettes in Canada. So I I've never seen like that scary packaging.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

Do you think vapes should also have that?

Health Risks, Withdrawal, And Sleep

SPEAKER_02 17:25

At minimum, probably, yeah. I think so too. You know, at minimum, probably, yeah. Uh vapes are such a massive, massive problem because they're so easy to hide. Oh, yeah, that's true. Like, I'm pretty sure I don't have confirmation of this, yeah, but I feel like I've heard that kids are even like vaping in classes nowadays.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

I've heard, because my wife works in schools, that in in the bathrooms they have specific vape like smoke detectors. Oh because they vape in the washroom.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

Damn, they're they got that kind of technology? I guess so. Are you sure? Oh, I guess I mean, why would she change that? No, I mean, good. Yeah, it should be like that. I I I wonder how good they are at actually detecting kids vaping.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Yeah, because I like even in class, I can just see someone like hitting a quick hit. Yeah, exactly, right?

SPEAKER_02 18:12

Just like getting into their like ducking into their shirt and like taking a hit.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Actually, I've seen videos of kids doing that in crypto.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

Yeah, I think people on airplanes vaping.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Yeah. I personally know people who have that.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

But yeah, like it's it's way too easy to hide. And that is a problem. How do you know much about secondhand vape smoke? Is that a thing? Well, I I think it is.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

Because like, I mean, so with cigarettes, like the tar is horrible for you, right? Like vapes, a little bit different, doesn't can like doesn't have those tar that's found in cigarettes. But I think there's now evidence showing like the chemicals mixed with the nicotine vapes can be they could be a cancer-causing agent. So I feel like if you're around kids, like little kids, and you're always vaping and they breathe in that thing, it's probably affecting them somewhat. Yeah. And not only that, it probably gets like your walls and and like cars, roofs, like ceilings dirty. Oh yeah, I didn't even think about that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:14

But yeah, especially for those kids, it's it's gotta be so bad. And if it's like some kid in class vaping, and then all the kids around him gotta smell that.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Yeah. Yeah, it can't be good. But can can they get because like I mean, I've been around people who smoke. I I don't think I've gotten like headrush from secondhand smoke. Oh yeah, but I I remember when I was a kid, my uncle used to smoke, yeah, like in his room. Uh-huh. With you in there. No, no, no. He would always do it in no, he would do it in the room though. Okay. But he wouldn't do it when I'm in there. Gotcha. I used to go in his room and play some video games on his computer back then. Yeah. And and that shit like stink, you know what I mean? But like, but I wasn't getting like a head rush though.

SPEAKER_02 19:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

Or like I wasn't I wasn't coughing from it.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Well, uh the head rush you probably get from the nicotine, right? And that's probably like in the person's body after they smoke it. But then there's all those other chemicals flying around, and that's probably fucking you up. Probably, honestly. And I mean, we're, you know, we're still pretty young.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

We're we're we're barely 30. And that's the thing too, because you know, people say, or I guess when vapes first came out, the argument was that it's safer than cigarettes. Yeah. But like because vapes are so easy to smoke, it's so tasty, like flavorful, it makes them smoke the vape like way more in commodity. Way more. And I feel like down the road, that's just gonna have so much health consequences. We don't know yet, right? We don't have long-ternal data of what kind of we we could be fucked right now.

SPEAKER_02 20:44

Yeah, like we could be totally fucked. We might only have like 10, 15 more years to live. Yeah. Because the stupid decisions we made as young adults and teenagers. But yeah, that's another thing about the vapes. People just are constantly hitting it for a smoke. You like go out and have a smoke break, like it's an effort. Yeah, on the hour or something, you gotta like leave the building for the most part. Yeah, and then you know, people see you smoking, there's like some some social shame there too. Yeah, but with vapes, you people just bust it out wherever the fuck they are, and then take a hit, and then that's not it. They'll take another hit and another hit, and like every three minutes, every five minutes, yeah. Just constantly going at it.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

And yeah, that's that's gotta be so so bad for you. Yeah, because like the I guess the consequences, like the social consequences aren't as severe versus a cigarette compared to a vape.

SPEAKER_02 21:30

Basically, no social consequences of vape. I mean, a little bit, like if if you've got like some good friends, they'll make fun of you, and you know, people around you, people should look at you weird if you're a vape, because you look like a fucking loser.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

Do you think was that fair to say for a person who was actually a smoker and they're you know they're using vapes to quit?

SPEAKER_02 21:48

Uh I mean, I would call them a fucking loser for smoking in the first place, man. To be honest, like they you made your choice. I get to call you a fucking loser now. That's the way it is. I was a fucking loser. I used to s I used to vape. You know, I thought I was a fucking loser then. I think and now I think I was a fucking loser then too. When I see people vaping, I think they're fucking losers. I I think it's pathetic, man. You know, you're dependent on something that you don't need at all. You've been like tricked into it and you bought into it, and now you keep buying into it.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

Well, I mean the only thing I'd say to that is is that like addiction, I think, is yeah, like a pretty complex disease. Yeah. They probably they probably know themselves too that wow, like I mean, wow, this is so stupid, but they just have so much trouble quitting. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

Yeah, I felt I feel comfortable saying this stuff because I felt it too. Like I truly felt like a fucking loser every so many times. Like I wanted to quit for a really long time. I just uh couldn't do it. Just kept going back to the vape shop after a little while, buying another vape. And every single time I would like I'd be like, wow, am I really spending another 30 bucks on this shit? Like I'm such a fucking loser. Like, why can't I I need to just stop? Like, what the fuck is this?

SPEAKER_00 22:58

Like, how much how much money do you think you spent?

SPEAKER_02 23:00

Dude, like over over the my entire life? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Like it's it's in the thousands. I'm thinking with cigarettes, because they were like, I don't know, I don't know how I wanna know how much they are now, but they were like, I don't know, 20 bucks a pack. Say you're a pack and day smoker, you're spending twenty dollars every single day for 365 days a year. Uh but that's that's uh that's an insane amount.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

It was like uh a vape is around like 30 bucks. Yeah. Have I bought a hundred vapes across my lifetime? I think I have. That's three thousand dollars. You know, even if I bought 50 vapes, that's $1,500. Yeah, I honestly have never had like any I haven't faced any health concerns so far, but it's something that I'm honestly constantly thinking about nowadays. Uh it feels like uh some something looming over me. Like I feel like it's something something is like coming, you know, once I get to like a later stage in life.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:51

And I hope that's not the case. Hope I get uh and hope I and all of our friends that made the same poor decisions. I hope we all get to you know get off scot-free with this stupid shit.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

I mean, I think you got you gotta give yourself a little slack though.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

You think so? Yeah, I mean like Well, what do you mean by that? Because I'm just like I'm just kind of like dreading the future, I guess, rather than rather than beating myself beating myself up over it. Because, you know, I did what I did, it's stupid, I won't do it again. I would say you should be more proud of it. Oh well, I am proud of it. Yeah, yeah. I am proud that I we're not talking about this yet, but like I had a very similar situation with weed, you know, and I ended up quitting that too. And this this is stuff that I'm proud of.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Yeah, because like addiction is uh such a difficult journey for so many people, right? So I'd say number one, be proud of it. Number two, I don't know what number two is.

SPEAKER_02 24:44

Maybe I shouldn't be so harsh on people that are struggling with addiction. I I think on the surface I'm pretty harsh about it, but I know there's like a ton of nuance to this topic.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Because we can touch on it even more later, but I was reading into it, like addiction, it's so complex because there's even like biology, like genetics for some people to be predisposed to have more addictive qualities, right? Yeah, when they try something, they like it, they're more inclined to use it. But then that's probably like one fraction of the story, another story, more relevant with other kind of drugs, but also could include like, oh, like they have trauma, or they they learn by seeing their parents maybe smoking, yeah, or peers doing smoking, peer pressure as well, or like in marginalized populations, just because they're in more risky areas, like they're exposed to it more. Yeah, for some people, it could be that, oh, maybe they had no choice to use it.

SPEAKER_02 25:43

Yeah, I can see that for some people, probably not most people though. For vaping? Yeah. I mean, just looking at our friends, like we didn't really have it that bad, you know. Not much stress combat in our life. I mean, like, yeah, like school and stuff, but you know, I don't think we had it bad enough to actually go towards stress relievers, like stress relievers like that. I think for for us, uh it was just stupid kids doing stupid shit. And I think that I think that's probably what it is for most people in North America at least. For vaping, yeah, or at least like the vet the Western world.

Kids Vaping Everywhere And Why It Spreads

SPEAKER_02 26:20

Like, for example, I went to France like two years ago or something, or a year ago, I don't remember exactly. But like all the kids there vape. Really?

SPEAKER_00 26:27

Yeah. Oh, wait, you went to France too. My experience was that well, I didn't see any kids, but I I still saw people smoking cigarettes. I don't think I've seen that many people, or I don't think I saw people vaping that much in France.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

When I was in Paris, yeah, I saw teenagers with vapes everywhere, like everywhere, non-stop. Teenagers wait vaping. I was like on this one street with a bunch of shops outside the Louvre, like everywhere, teenagers vaping. But actually, once I got out of Paris, I think I saw more cigarettes than vapes.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Hmm. Oh, because I was gonna say, I was gonna ask the question, do you think in Europe they smoke more than vape? But I guess you think probably not, hey?

SPEAKER_02 27:07

I think they're I think rather than a geographical thing, I think it's probably an age demographic thing. I think the youngers way more into vaping and they're like already hooked on. And the olders are probably some doing some smoking cigarettes, and they're just always gonna smoke cigarettes until one day they decide to quit cigarettes. Yeah, and some of them moved on to vapes and stuff like that. Yeah, but yeah, I I I think the especially on the younger generation, vaping has a very strong grip. Yeah, the same way it did on us. Do you think it got a little bit better?

SPEAKER_00 27:39

No, I think it got worse. The vaping thing? Yeah, it got worse.

SPEAKER_02 27:42

Yes, I think it got worse because so our vaping lives were kind of defined by the jewel, and jewels didn't have like a whole lot in them, you know. You couldn't, it wasn't like today where you just keep hitting it, hitting it, hitting it, hitting it, and it's like endless. Yeah, like a jewel would would run out in not super long time.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

Yeah, actually, yeah, I agree. I w one of our friends showed me their vape, but that thing has like 50,000 puffs. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

They're like gigantic, and the the ones that some uh one of our other friends, or like some of our other friends, had where it's like the the one where you can like mod it and like add your own juice and like switch out stuff like that, like those are huge, yeah. They're like juice supply is massive.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

Yeah, actually, uh I I saw one where you can use it as a phone.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

What?

SPEAKER_00 28:27

Yeah, is it like a phone case or it straight up has Android on it? What you can go on Instagram, you can go on Spotify.

SPEAKER_02 28:33

What that is crazy, dude. That's what probably what the kids have in in like school and stuff. Yeah, like that's probably the shit they're buying. That that can't be 30 bucks, that's gotta be a little more than that. Also, what a useless product. Like, once it runs out of the juice, what do you do?

SPEAKER_00 28:47

It I'm guessing it's one of the disposable ones, or the it must be it must be chargeable. It'd be such a waste of chargeable, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

But like, is it the one where you can like add juice to it or something? I hope I hope so. Yeah, because if you can't, then you just gotta toss that out. Some crazy e-waste. Yeah, but like I was saying, uh jewels, they had they had way less juice in them, and it was like kind of close to cigarettes, or at least closer than what vapes are like nowadays. Because nowadays, yeah, it just it's like never-ending. A vape lasts so fucking long, there's so many puffs in it. Yeah. To tie that back into you know, kids smoking more nowadays. You you remember we had those jewel fucking things, and they would last like a couple weeks or depending on who it was, a week to a couple weeks. But now with these 50,000 puffs bullshit, kids are running through them in in a week or much more product in the same amount of time. I think. You know what? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I feel like people are smoking it so much more often now than than even we were.

SPEAKER_00 29:47

Yeah, I guess I guess I had the presumption that maybe it died down just because people around us are trying to quit. Yeah. But I guess I I I haven't thought about like what it's like for kids growing up, like younger kids, like like high school kids specifically.

SPEAKER_02 30:02

Yeah, do you personally know any younger kids, like any family members or that are younger that you've seen them like vape or something?

SPEAKER_00 30:08

No, but when we used when we played volleyball at that center, because there's a lot of like younger kids, right? And when I say younger, these are like early 20s. Yeah, yeah. They're still like over you gotta be over 18 to play in early. Like I see I like I see them vaping outside.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

Oh yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, now that you mention it, I saw some kids vaping inside the gym one. Yeah, yeah. So this shit is like actually everywhere. Like, like I don't take I have a car, so I haven't taken public transportation in a long time. But I bet if you go sit on a on a bus in our city or the or the train or something, subway, you're probably gonna be around a couple people vaping. Yeah, so yeah, I I think it has gotten worse. I think it is getting worse. And if there is like a fight against vapes, it's not super apparent, at least to me right now. The fight, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

But you but do you think we'll get there?

SPEAKER_02 30:55

I mean, I sure hope so. And and you know, with mediums like this podcast, us telling people how bad it is, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

You know, there's there's hope.

Laws, Black Markets, And Regulation Ideas

SPEAKER_00 31:04

Because I when I was listening to a different podcast, I heard this new law in the UK where there's the approval of a bill to ban cigarette sales for kids under no, wait, no, take that back. It was a law to ban people born after 2008 from buying cigarettes. Oh interesting. So after 08, you just can't buy cigarettes. Like, say maybe you're 65 years old down the road, but you're born in two born after 2008. Yeah, you can never buy cigarettes.

SPEAKER_02 31:35

So they're b they're basically getting outlawed then.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

Yeah. What do you what do you think?

SPEAKER_02 31:40

I mean, doesn't I mean I'm for it. Am I for it? I don't know, because I feel like I've always believed that adults should be able to do whatever they want as long as they're not harming anyone else. But I mean, you're you're harming yourself quite a lot by smoking, you know. I guess I have mixed feelings about it. I think it's good that people wouldn't be smoking anymore. And you know what? Maybe that's worth the government having too a little too strong of a hand on this specific thing. But I mean that's what government's for, you know, you're supposed to keep us safe. So at the end of the day, is it can it really be a bad thing? I think it's it's probably a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

I mean, yeah, like I see the vision. Yeah. But I just feel like it'll cause a lot of problems. Because as you mentioned, it'd be limiting.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

Yeah, it sets a strange precedent for the amount of control a government has on our lives.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

But I mean, I guess you could view it the same way as like, well, weed used to be banned, or like weed is still illegal in a tons of tons of places around the world. Yeah, in some places even alcohol is banned.

SPEAKER_00 32:40

So how's that how's this really different? Well, because then like let's if you make it illegal, yeah. What if that creates an environment where oh, now they're gonna get caught for possession of cigarettes, they're going to jail, which is what was happening for weed, and people were getting like extreme sentences for possession. Yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_02 32:58

And it creates like a black market for this stuff too. Yeah. Because it's not like people are gonna stop smoking.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

Yeah. I mean, like, I don't know what the answer is because of course, like in the 90s, or I mean not in the 90s, but in the 20th century, like smoking was very prevalent. Yeah. But there's been like very there was massive of efforts to cut down on it to like health literacy, advertisement laws, taxation laws as well. Which I think it was like like effective to a point.

SPEAKER_02 33:23

Like it curbed it. Yeah. Dude, I mean, we never would have smoked if not for vapes.

SPEAKER_00 33:27

I think now it's like people start with vapes first, yeah, and then they go to photo. Yeah. For now, the effort maybe should be geared towards curbing vape sales or sort of more tight regulations, more like basically what they did was cigarettes, but with vapes.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

Yeah, it should at least have the same amount of scrutiny as cigarettes currently do.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Yeah. Because like the the nicotine content when it first came out, like I remember jewels, it was pretty high. Yeah. But so they they they made some mandates to decrease the nicotine content. Right. It was like more than cigarettes back then. I don't know. But how about but I don't, but I know I've heard like stores, not just in where like where we we live, but like in other cities as well, they're they're technically illegally selling high content nicotine vapes. Legally or illegally? Illegally, because people like them better. Because it gets you get that.

SPEAKER_02 34:19

You're talking about right now, right? Yeah, right now. Yeah, yeah. They're ever yeah, they're everywhere. I mean, I remember I don't know if this is the same back then, but like, or same now as back then, but like back then when you we would go to like a smoke shop and like ask for vapes, and we would always be like, You got the you got the five percent. And like, sure enough, they would always have like a cabinet with the high nicotine content vapes in them. And it's like everywhere does this, you know. How do you stop this? I mean, two two guys in a bedroom definitely don't have the answer.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

Yeah, I think it's all I mean, not it's all, but I think like a big portion is like preventative approaches, like what they did with cigarettes, yeah. Trying to prevent people from going to it in the first place.

SPEAKER_02 34:58

I think a big part is social shame. Everyone needs to shame the people around them for doing stupid shit. Just keep shaming them until they change. I think that's a big part of it. You think so? I think so. I mean, I hope so. But is it but I feel like that's already happening nowadays. Is it? I think so. Do we shame our friends? Did we ever really shame our friends? We made like kind of made jokes about it, but never really shamed our friends for smoking.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

Well, the only reason I I I say it's happening a little bit, because in on social media, I think there's a general movement towards like making more health conscious decision decisions. So I think like there is a little bit of shame already create like shame movement created already by society.

SPEAKER_02 35:40

Yeah, with kids, it's with kids, it's hard, man. Because where how are they even getting this stuff? Because it is like kids in junior high and high school that are getting their hands on vapes, but probably elementary students too. Oh my god. Yeah, how are they getting this stuff? Yeah, dude. For example, have you ever have you ever bought like beer illegally? I haven't. I haven't. Yeah, how do how do you even do that?

SPEAKER_00 36:01

That's a good question. So how are you guys like how would kids purchase vapes?

SPEAKER_02 36:05

Yeah, like I never even like illegally bought beer. That's like a that's like a classic movie scenario, you know. Yeah. Underage kids buying beer. But how are these under because you get I you're supposed to get ID'd for vapes or whatever, aren't you? And I mean, it's really obvious when someone's like a middle school kid, you know, or even a high school kid.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Yeah, how do you do you think it's the same way how they would buy just alcohol, fake ID? No, you know what? I bet the the workers just like don't give a shit. That's true because in liquor stores, I mean, I don't know if that's true, but they they are defin they appear definitely more uptight about checking ID.

SPEAKER_02 36:42

Yeah, like I've I've never not been ID'd at a liquor store. Yeah, no matter how big my beard is, no beard, look young, look old. I've always been ID'd. That's a good thing. That's a good point. I don't even know everything about that.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

Yeah, but at like a vape store, like as long as you look old enough.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

Dude, I don't even know, I don't even know if it's like old enough. Because when I was like 20 and I would like clean shave, do my hair a certain way, I could pass for like 15, 16, you know. And never once did I get ID'd at a at a vape shop.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

Yeah. Yeah. And then I guess like I forgot to mention is that like we were talking about maybe the health benefits of or health benefit cons of nicotine, which seems to be that there's way more cons than prosper. Oh, yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_02 37:22

Yeah, like I said, I couldn't think of any any any pros. Like the pro is you gave into peer pressure, so now your friends accept you. Like, congrats, dumbass.

SPEAKER_00 37:31

I mean, that's I mean that's not health, but that's like more of a society. Oh, yeah. But can you think of any anything else? Any positive it makes money for the government. Like it provides employment. Yeah, I guess. I get and actually that's the thing too. For employment, that's kind of a gray area because I've I I saw like an Instagram reel that mo basically most of these vapes are being made in China.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

Oh yeah, yeah. The vapes are being made in China.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

Like in horrible working conditions.

SPEAKER_02 37:57

Yeah. I I saw a video like a couple days ago of like a vape tester in a Chinese factory.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

Yeah, dude. I didn't even think about that. They're probably they're getting like their lungs are probably gonna destroy testing all those vapes. Super fucked. Okay, so basically vaping horrible.

SPEAKER_02 38:12

I mean, like even in terms of like making jobs, like like what jobs is it making, you know? Even even for the guy selling vapes in a vape shop, that shop's still gonna be there if like vapes and and uh smokes aren't there, it'll just be a convenience store, you know, just be a gas station, something like that. Wow, yeah, I honestly I don't even think about that. Yeah, I honestly don't see any positives at all, any any pros at all for smoking nicotine, not a single one.

SPEAKER_00 38:39

Oh, actually, yeah, because I was gonna say, oh, like there is evidence that it could help cognition and intention, but I guess at that point you can just drink coffee.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

Yeah, or like, you know, I'm sure there's other substances that aren't harmful to you that can achieve the same thing. Or, you know, then again, maybe in monitored moderation, nicotine can be helpful medicinally, but for the for the layman, smoking cigarettes and vaping and pouches and gum, none of it's good for you. Yeah, of course, some of it is to help you get off of it, like the pouches, the gum, and maybe even I'm not even gonna say vapes are to help you.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

I will say that the only caveat to that is when it comes to culture, because indigenous cultures and probably some other cultures as well, like nicotine, tobacco, like tobacco specifically, is like a pretty significant part, a significant, plays a significant role in their culture.

SPEAKER_02 39:30

Yeah, of course, there's like a ton of nuance to tons of situations. And and I make a lot of blanket statements, but you know, these blanket statements don't apply to every situation. It's just an easy, you know, blanket statement to make. But then when you look at these specific situations like First Nations peoples and Aboriginal cultures and the way that they use these specific products, yeah, there's nuance to it, and they have reasons for it that are completely separate from the broader world.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

Apparently, um it's it's like preventative against ulcerative ulcerative colitis.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

Really? Yeah. Wow. I've heard ulcerative colitis very few few times in my life. My favorite MMA fighter, George St. Pierre, had ulcerative colitis. So I only had? Yeah, had ulcerative, or I guess has ulcerative colitis.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

Well, I guess technically ulcerative colitis can be curative if you take out. Yeah, he so he took out like a bunch of his intestine and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

Yeah. So interesting that uh nicotine can help with that. Yeah, uh again, that like buys into the point where in moderation I'm sure it has some benefit. But you know, it's not being used in moderation for 99.99999% of people.

SPEAKER_00 40:38

But yeah, that's enough of that. I did not expect for us to talk about vaping this entire Oh, the whole episode was vaping. Oh, okay.

Next Topic Tease And Closing

SPEAKER_00 40:47

I mean, I'm not gonna lie to everyone, but that's that's all the time we have today. Um I guess this is gonna be a basically a three-episode series. At least three episodes, probably. Because next episode we're gonna talk about alcohol. But we don't want to give away too much, but we'll just leave it at that. So if you want to listen and tune in to that episode, you're gonna have to have to wait and see what what turns out.

SPEAKER_02 41:12

But yeah, and uh once again, Cohen and I want to apologize for this episode being a little later. We had some problems with the last couple episodes, but hopefully we are back on track now. And but yeah, thank you guys very much for tuning in, tuning in again this week, and we'll hope to see you in the next one. This was Catch Up with Kai and Cohen.