Ep 1: I Thought We'd Grow Old Together | Elle James & Michelle Mackenzie

Rachel Joy Swardson thought losing her best friend was rare. Then she met content creator Shameless Elle and discovered they shared a surprisingly similar story. For nearly a decade, Elle believed she'd already found her person, the friend she'd call in a crisis, celebrate life's wins with, and grow old beside. 

Then one difficult decision changed everything, and the friendship ended. In this candid conversation, Rachel and Elle talk about friendship breakups, losing the woman you thought would always be there, and the unexpected loneliness that follows when your social world is built around one person.

But they also talk about what comes next. Because sometimes the friendships that change your life aren't the ones you lose. They're the ones you didn't see standing beside you all along.

In This Episode:

• The friendship breakup that changed the course of Elle's life
 • Why losing a best friend can feel as painful as a divorce
 • The danger of making one person your entire social world
 • How friendship loss can shake your confidence and identity
 • The surprising people who were waiting in the wings all along
 • What Rachel and Elle learned after losing the friendships they thought would last forever

Connect with Shameless Elle:

Instagram, TikTok, YouTube & Facebook: @ShamelessElle 

https://shamelesselle.com

Coming Up Next:

Elles best friend Michelle @lifeofawidow joins the conversation in Part 2 to share how an unlikely friendship between three women became a lifeline during some of the hardest times of their lives.

About The Best Friend Podcast

The Best Friend Podcast is where original friendship research meets real-life stories. Host Rachel Joy Swardson, founder of The Best Friend Project, investigates how women find, make, lose, and keep the platonic loves of their lives through original research, personal experience, and candid conversations. Learn more, take the survey, and share your friendship story at TheBestFriendProject.co.

Chapters: 

0:00 Opening — "I thought we'd grow old together"

1:00 Welcome to The Best Friend Project

2:00 How Rachel Found Elle (and What She Saw in That Instagram Post)

3:00 Elle's Best Friend Breakup — Nine Years, Then Silence

5:00 The Moment That Ended Everything: A Crisis and a Phone Call

7:00 What It Feels Like to Lose Your "One Person"

9:00 How Elle Started Saying Yes to Friendship Again

11:00 Reflection: Was That Friendship Even Healthy?

13:00 Hiding Your Joy to Protect Your Friend's Feelings

15:00 Grieving a Friendship While Honoring the Good in It

16:00 How Elle Met Stephanie and Michelle

17:00 Three Women, Shared Grief, and a Friendship Born of Necessity

19:00 When Friendship Hits a Threshold — And You Have to Decide

21:00 Healthier Friendships Were There All Along

22:00 "I Thought I Only Needed One Friend" — On Codependency and Letting People In

24:00 The Story of Michelle's Car — What True Friendship Looks Like

27:00 How Michelle Teaches Elle to Be a Better Friend

28:00 Michelle Joins the Conversation — Stay Tuned for Part 2

#TheBestFriendProject #FriendshipBreakup #WomenAndFriendship #FemaleFriendship #BestFriendBreakup #MakingFriendsAsAnAdult #FriendshipHealing

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

And I honestly thought we would grow old together and we'd have these like trailers like side by side in in like the retirement home and we'd, you know, uh still be drinking wine on our porch uh when we were 80. I think when you make somebody your whole person, even in a marriage, I think you make a mistake.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Look around and you'll see them. Women out walking, in restaurants, at the airport, stores, driving in their cars. Women are everywhere. And every time you see a woman, you're seeing someone who has, at some point, struggled with a friendship. Because it's one of the most complicated, meaningful, and rewarding relationships of our lives. But how to do friendship well isn't talked about enough. So let's start. I'm Rachel Schwartzen, former private investigator and TV journalist, and now host of the Best Friend Project, where we use original data and real stories to better understand how women find, make, and keep their friends. Thank you for listening. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Best Friend Project. I started this because I had a horrible best friend breakup. And it left me completely lacking in social confidence. How do I find friends? How do I make them? How do I keep them? And it got me thinking about what would I do without her if something terrible happened in my life? Like who would I call? And as I was mulling over what would I do, who would I call, I saw an Instagram post by Elle, who joins us today, and she was sharing something very um sad and emotional. And it immediately hit my heart, and I was wondering, did she have people? And so I sent her a DM and that led to a conversation between the two of us, and I just wanted to extend it here so we could all have that conversation together. So thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. Because what what surprised me in our call is that I didn't know that you had had a friendship breakup. You know?

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Yeah, I definitely kind of isolated myself when um, you know, I I had one friend for uh I g I think about nine years. And um, you know, she was just kind of one of those friends that she was like all you need.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

And so when that friendship ended, like was it abrupt or w had did you guys have a big fight or what like what happened?

SPEAKER_01 2:45

Yeah, it was um it was very abrupt. Uh I think like we had had um, I wouldn't even call it a falling out, but um about two years before our friendship ended, um, there was a period of time where she just kind of iced me out and wouldn't talk to me for like three or four months. Um, and she didn't tell me what happened. She just kind of all of a sudden stopped talking to me. And I I remember being really uh confused by it, and I tried to, you know, like I'd run into her in the gym and I'd try to talk to her and she just kind of shut me down. And uh she just, I don't know, it was kind of like I guess we had started both in the same space where we were both, you know, kind of divorced and um newly single, and um things had changed for me. I wasn't quite so um financially not well, and I I wasn't such a a mess anymore. Um she kind of was like a mother hen, you know, she took care of me a lot. Um and lots of that had kind of changed and um she seemed to feel that um I don't know, that I was gonna start to pity her was one thing she said, and um I don't know that we were just in different spots and um she didn't think that because I was I just sold my my place that we were uh in the same spot and she felt like she should be doing better than I was at this point because she was, you know, uh like seven years older than me. Um but anyways, we we kind of got past that and I, you know, said don't do that to me again, like I just you know, like you're my person. And um anyways, and then she she had a pretty hard go. Like there was a lot of things that were not going well in her life, and um she had expressed thoughts of suicide and I didn't know what to do. Um so I tried to talk to her and tried to um, you know, get her to kind of try to make a plan for something good or like, you know, uh we can get out of this, you know, that kind of thing. And then when she left, I just kind of sat there like not sure what to do. And so I called my boyfriend at the time and uh um I said, you know, do I call the police? Like I don't think I should, like I don't think it's that urgent, um, but I feel like I should tell someone and I just like if I don't, if I don't tell somebody, what happens if she if she does do it, then I I'll never be able to live with myself. And um there's not many people that she had that were close other than myself, and so it was her mom. And her mom, she was very, very protective of her mom, and I knew that. Um her mom wasn't like super well, um, but she was the only person that I felt I could tell. And so I I called her and I didn't even get to say anything. Um and she had walked in the door and um figured out that it was me on the phone, and um and then she she got very angry and um and she never talked to me again.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Ugh.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

That was it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

And you never even told her mom, right? You just were on the phone with her mom? No, but she knew I was going to. Yeah.

unknown 6:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Oh my gosh, but what other choice would you have had? I don't know that anyone would have done anything different.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Um Yeah, I mean we all we all have to make choices, and maybe, you know, some people would have just stayed close and tried to talk to her more, but I just I didn't, you know, I felt like I needed to tell someone and tell her family, and um and for her that was I made the wrong choice. So I'm so sorry. Yeah. You know, it is what it is. It's uh it's the way life goes sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Yeah. And so losing her left you with this hole where you had had a friend, you know, so now it's Saturday nights and you're by yourself. And you know, obviously you probably had the same struggle with the front of confidence that I'm going through, I would think, to a certain extent. Oh yeah. Of course.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Um You know, I think I think when you make somebody your whole person, um, even in a marriage, I think you make a mistake. And I've done that a number of times. I've made, you know, the person that I was seeing at the time or my husband, um, everything in my life. And when you make somebody everything, you have nothing when they go. And uh unfortunately in life, people go, you know, and that's just part of it. And I don't think it means that you have to be more guarded, but I think I think it means that you you can't put all your eggs in one basket and you need to, you know, surround yourself by multiple people and um and I think that's very healthy. Um I unfortunately didn't do that. So when she left and I wasn't um I I just wasn't uh I wasn't okay, you know. And I just thought, now I don't have anybody. I don't, you know, I don't have that person. And to be honest with you, like I know that the girls that I'm now very close with would come and get me and and do all those things, but it's, you know, their lives are are so um busy and all of that as well. It's uh, you know, it's everything's different, right? And I think when you're you've got this idea of what that friendship is, you sometimes have to um change and and and also get to a point where you're like, well, you know, I I need to surround myself by wonderful people and and um and also, you know, be able to rely on myself and know that I'll be okay if you know things change. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:43

Yeah, you can tell you still miss her so much. Yeah. Wow. How did you find other friends, you know?

SPEAKER_01 8:55

Oh, well, I mean, like like I said, I had I had a lot of people around me. I have a lot of wonderful um people that were, you know, they they would ask me out or they would ask me to do things, and I, you know, I don't know if you it's selfish or sadly I I put them off. I kind of, you know, would push it off, or I never really fully invested in the way that you have to invest in a friendship to um have that level of intimacy, that that that trust and that um you know vulnerability. So um basically I just kind of slowly promised myself to start saying yes. So I said yes to um anybody that was, you know, wanting to do something or hang out, and and then I tried to push myself to, you know, make that happen more myself and and be the person that was, you know, uh bringing about the invites. And um, you know, yeah. It's uh, you know, you just have to make an effort. Like there was people around me that wanted to uh be friends. Yeah.

unknown 10:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

And previously you had just only been with your one friend, so you probably didn't even notice the people that were around you, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:10

I mean, I did. I just I've never been somebody that needed to have um a lot of friends. Like I think I always like was like, ah, all you need is one good friend. But the problem with only having one good friend is that you uh uh you know, when that happens, when when things use you split ways, um it can leave a pretty big hole in your life if you're you know, especially if you're very emotionally dependent on them. And like we called each other sisters, like we were, you know, we were we were each other's person. Um so yeah, uh I I I guess I just I I I thought of them as friends, but I I only had one spot for a sister, I guess. I don't know. In my head, that was where I was.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

Do you think that you'll reach out to her at all? Like, do you think she'd forgive you or you is that kind of run out of course?

SPEAKER_01 11:03

No, I don't think I would. Uh I I had a lot of like reflection, I guess, on our friendship and um there was a part of me that felt like she kind of wanted me to stay in the same space that we were in when we first met. And me leaving that space or um doing better for myself or that kind of thing. It just it was like we weren't on the same level anymore, or like we weren't um I don't know. It it it just it didn't, I guess it when I looked back, I thought maybe this wasn't a healthy relationship.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

I feel the same way. I really do. And initially I was thinking I would eventually we'll talk and we'll sort this out, but really with time and reflection and just talking with people like you and you know, the people I met through this project, I also don't think it was healthy, you know for me either. And people say, well, just call her and talk about it. And I'm like, I don't, I don't know, you know, I feel like it was what it was, and hopefully she's learning a lot too. But there were similarities how you said she was sort of maternal and kind of took care of things and stuff like that, and um that was a similar dynamic in our friendship, and you know, very similar to you, like when I got married and things started to be a little bit more normalized for me, it just seemed like she maybe felt like she didn't have a a role anymore in our friendship or there weren't as many messes for her to sweep up or something like that. But um I want to have a friend that's thrilled for me when things are going well, you know.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

Yeah, and that was that would that definitely played a role. Like after the first time that she kind of iced me out, I I started holding back anything that was like going well well. Like I didn't it it was like I didn't want to bring it up because she wasn't in a good space, and so I felt like um I don't know, like I couldn't be joyful around her. Um and I'm sure that there was things like I've you know, as so I say that I I wouldn't reach out, but like I run into her daughter sometimes and I always ask, you know, how she's doing and and you know, from what her daughter says, she's doing really well. And so maybe um I I was uh that person for her. Maybe I was, you know, somebody that was holding her back, or um, maybe the friendship just wasn't good for either of us anymore.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

So that's interesting though, too, because you have kids, so are your kids confused about where she is or what happened? Like how did you explain to your family to your children that it was over?

SPEAKER_01 13:46

They like it's not like she was really in their lives anymore. Like, you know, they they loved her, they they thought of her as um, you know, like kind of like an auntie and that, but at the same time, like my kids were getting older and they weren't really like they weren't really uh hanging out with her when she'd come over. Um she was my emergency contact for my kids. But um yeah, no, I mean they asked, of course, but it wasn't uh they weren't like heartbroken or anything. Like it wasn't uh they were more sad for me.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

You know, I I think a lot of friendship, you know, we just think people are just naturally good at it or we're just born knowing how to be a friend, and it's really intention. And you know, we can we will continue to struggle because human beings are complicated and our lives change and people come and go and they move, or you know, all that kind of stuff. So I think it is important for our kids to see the reality of things and that it isn't just perfect. And in my case, she was also my kid's emergency contact. And I just had to be like, hey, you know, just switch it up and just kind of, you know, but I didn't go into great detail. It just was we had a falling out and you know, leave it at that.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

So yeah. I mean, um, you know, my friend, she was uh as much as I was I was sad the way that it ended, and I was sad um, you know, to to have that kind of negative end. Um she was, you know, she was my emergency contact for a reason. She was the most dependable person. She was there anytime I needed her. She always she always came to my house because I had kids that were young. Um she would do anything for me for a long time. She would have done anything for me. Um and she carried me through some really hard times. So yeah, you know, it's I tried to think about those things.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and then you have these two newer friends that sound just so much more positive in terms of they're also there for you, but they're there for you for the good, also. Can you share a little bit about how you met the two of them?

SPEAKER_01 16:01

Oh, um, well, uh Stephanie, um, she's from Ireland and she moved up here with her ex. She started coming to me to get her hair done. And so slowly over time we became friends. And um Michelle, Michelle is somebody that watched me online. Um, she was a follower of mine on on um like Instagram, and I had put out uh I can't even remember how many years ago, maybe four or five years ago, I had put out an invite for people that were around the Okanagan to come for like a pizza dinner, and I bought dinner for I think it was like ten, ten people. And so she came and then and then we exchanged numbers and um we didn't become close friends right away. Like I said, she was kind of there in the background, and then it's really just been in the last like year and a half. We all started reaching out to each other, and I think we're we're kind of in this situation where we're all three of us have been really struggling, like really deeply struggling in our lives. And the thing is, is that we just needed each other, like all three of us really needed each other, and and it it almost came out of this necessity, you know, to have someone that we could rely on, that we could, you know, step away from being mom for a minute, um, that we could step out of our depression, that we could share our depression, that we could, you know, just cry together. And and to be honest with you, when you say like they're there for you for the good, to be honest with you, all of us haven't had a ton of good lately. And and in our closeness um uh as friends, there hasn't, like, because it's been a short time and we've all been going through some deep grief, um, you know, we've all been there for each other, but there hasn't been a whole lot of uh celebration. But any small wins, of course, they are, you know, um, they are there and and we're all there for each other. But yeah, it's uh it's been a lot of a lot. We're like three depressed ladies.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

But you're together, you know what I mean? I mean how much worse to be, you know, alone somewhere. And I feel for Stephanie being moving from another country, you know, to from Ireland to Canada. And then Michelle also? Yeah, she's from Scotland. Oh wow. It's very difficult to put yourself out there, like you said. You just have to kind of get out there and somebody invites you, you go, and it doesn't mean you have to be married forever to your friend, you know. And that's the other thing is like Because I just recently had been moved to Dallas and I'm meeting people that I don't know if I like them yet. You know, like we've gone out a couple of times, we've done happier a couple of times, but it's very complicated to sort of think your frustr, yeah, like you've your friendship kind of reaches a threshold where you're like, okay, I feel like we can be friends because there is sort of a moment where you're like, I don't know that I want to walk and have these conversations with this person or have coffee with this con, you know, but then you have to be the breaker-upper, and that feels icky, you know.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

I haven't I haven't really had that situation yet, I guess. Um, you know, I I I I had known these girls for a long time and I knew that they were both really lovely, wonderful people. We just hadn't had that chance to like connect and and truly um, you know, become deeper in our friendship. And so that was that was kind of my situation with them. I knew that they were people that I liked.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

And do you think it took your other your other friendship ending for you to really see in them like a space in your life for them? 100%.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

I I I would have been best friends with uh the the other girl forever. And I honestly thought we would grow old together and we'd have these like, you know, like little trailers, like side by side and in like the retirement home, and we'd, you know, uh still be drinking wine on our porch uh when we were 80. That's what I thought my life was gonna look like. Um it's funny, I th I think I pictured a longer life with her than I ever did with my husband. Yeah. So yeah, no, I just um I think I think as we grow, we we end up realizing sometimes we have to change our values.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

It's so important for me to hear what you just said because I just feel like because I was the same way. I mean, we would plan our retirement, we'd kind of written each other's obituaries, and they were just constantly you know, roasting the other one, like, oh, that's going in your obituary, you know. Like we were never not gonna be there for each other. And it helps me so much to hear you say like they were actually healthier, better friendships on the peripheral. I just well, you didn't see you weren't ready for them, maybe, or you know.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

I just I had a a vision, I had I've had visions of what things are supposed to be like my whole life, you know, and I thought that my marriage was supposed to be one way, or that I was supposed to be a certain kind of wife that I didn't do anything without my husband. Everything I did, I did with my husband. I I didn't go and play badminton for years because he he didn't want to come with me, so I thought I shouldn't do it. And in my head, I thought that's the type of wife that I should be, that I was supposed to be. And as my marriage ended, I realized that, you know, somebody that doesn't have any uh life aspirations or values or or things that she wants outside of a marriage isn't a very healthy person. That's Codependent person. That's not an attractive person that you want to be around. And especially when you get absolutely zero space from them. You know, who wants that? But it's taken me a long time to learn some of these lessons. And it's the same for my friendship. You know, I I thought that I only needed one friend. I thought that I thought that I only needed one friend. I I didn't think I even had room for more. So I never tried.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Do you think that she would have been open to you having other friends? Or was she kind of Of course. Of course. So you just didn't need them.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

And then it's not like I never hung out with anybody. Like, don't get me wrong. It's not not that I never hung out with anyone, but I never tried to have the close kind of relationship that I had with her with anybody else. I never, I never even tried.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

And has have there been any instances within your friendships with Stephanie and Michelle that you feel like have you've had to become closer because something happened and they showed up for you in a unique way or you showed up for them in a unique way? Do I feel like I've had to become closer? Like did no, did something bring you closer? Like did has anything happened? You know, because if if we're friends and I don't need you, I'm just sort of your neighbor or whatever, nothing h you know, but if there's something where I'm something happens to you and I show up for you, I prove my friendship to you, you know? Um like for with your friendship with Michelle and Stephanie and your, you know, the last couple of years, has anything stood out to you that you're like, wow, I'm blown away by what they did for me or how they showed up for me?

SPEAKER_01 23:48

Uh yeah. Um, yeah, no, they uh in many cases they've they've been teaching me, you know, how to be a friend. And um and it's and it's so small, you know. Um I had to uh I had to borrow my friend's car, M Michelle's car, um, to go to the island for my ex's funeral. And um because I didn't have winter tires and um I ended up being told that the funeral was happening uh only a week before. Um and uh so I was in a bit of a panic because I didn't have winter tires, and I'm a very nervous driver, and so I wanted to have a reliable vehicle, so I called her to ask if I could borrow her vehicle. And not only was it not a thought, um, but when she was pretty sure that she had something um that she needed to be up the ski hill for, which would you would want winter tires for, she immediately, you know, it wasn't, oh, I I actually need my vehicle. It was like, no, you know what? I think I can actually get a ride with my neighbor, and I'll get my neighbor to do this, and then I'll get this person to come and help me. And then she was figuring it out. And and then it turned out that um, you know, skiing had ended that week, so that was out the window. But her instinct was not to say no, her instinct was to find a way to say yes. And then when we showed up to take the vehicle, not only was it clean, not only was it full of gas, there was two there was a water bottle in every cup holder, there was um the console stuffed with little goodies, there was uh Tim Horton's uh gift card, there was um wires to plug our phone in, um, there was uh um any kind of safety equipment that you might need in the back, and a little a little gnome from her husband that passed away to protect us on our drive. So um those are the moments that I, you know, I went and of course cleaned my car and brought it to her full of gas, but just the way that she, you know, went so far above and beyond to just make my day a little bit easier. Those are, you know, those are the moments that you see somebody trying to teach you or or showing you, you know, how to be a good friend. Um, and my my friend Stephanie as well, you know, she's cooking for me and showing up at my door with food and um always checking on me um during this last month uh since my children's father died. Um they've just been there for me in in so many ways. Um sorry, but yeah, um no, they teach me how to be a good friend all the time.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

I just find that I mean it's just so beautiful. And Michelle I mean to to do that in that detail and to think of what you would need as you, you know, going through this on your way to your husband's funeral. Um not just wanting you to be safe, but to be safe and comfortable and feel that love. Um I think I need to look for those signs. I love that you say they teach you, you know, because I think you can only be taught up your this, you know, you recognize yourself as the student. Like, you know, you need to learn from from others, and those lessons are are all around us. And it also doesn't sound like Michelle has like nothing on her plate. Like she's got a lot on her mind as well, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:38

Like she has the most on her plate. She's not she's not somebody that is just walking through life with a smile every moment. She's struggling. She's struggling more than most. And um it didn't matter. You know, it just didn't matter. She will put herself aside for anyone that she loves, anybody that she loves, she'll put herself aside. I I don't even know what to call it. I don't I don't know what to call that kind of self-sacrifice. It's just the most selfless thing that I can think of.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Wow. And she lost her husband a year and a half ago.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Yeah, he died very suddenly.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

Oh, how awful.

unknown 28:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

It's uh yeah, it's been hard. There she is.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

Look who's just joined us. Oh my gosh, just when we ran out of time, Michelle pops into the conversation. I am so excited to hear her and Elle talk together. Elle absolutely made me so tearful in hearing about how her friends have shown up for her and how they were there the whole time, and she didn't even necessarily know it because of her breakup. I find her fascinating. I hope you did too. And I am so excited for you to hear the three of us talk and hear Michelle's perception of Ella as a friend and hear more from both of them on their friendship. So stay tuned for part two.