Ep 2: Well, Look Who's Here! | Michelle Mackenzie & Elle James

When Shameless Elle lost the friendship she thought would last forever, she wasn't looking for new friends. But life had other plans.

In Part 2 of this conversation, Rachel Joy Swardson welcomes Michelle (@TheLifeOfAWidow) to the podcast to talk about the friendship that formed when three women found themselves navigating grief, loss, loneliness, and some of the hardest seasons of their lives at the exact same time. 

Michelle shares how growing up in poverty shaped the way she approached friendship, while Elle reflects on the surprising lessons she's learned from the women who stepped into her life after her best friend breakup. Together, they talk about accepting help, showing up imperfectly, and why some of the most meaningful friendships aren't built during the best years of our lives, they're built during the hardest. 

This isn't a conversation about waiting until you have life figured out before making friends. It's a conversation about finding people willing to march through the hardships with you, because they're in it too.

In This Episode:

• How three women found each other during seasons of grief and loss
 • The impact poverty can have on friendship and self-worth
 • Why asking for help is harder than it looks
 • What happens when women stop trying to earn love and simply receive it
 • Friendship after widowhood, divorce, and heartbreak
 • The small acts of kindness that change relationships forever
 • Why nobody has to march through life's hardest moments alone

Connect with Our Guests:

Shameless Elle
 Instagram, TikTok, YouTube & Facebook: @ShamelessElle

https://shamelesselle.com

Michelle
 Instagram: @TheLifeOfAWidow

About The Best Friend Podcast

The Best Friend Podcast is where original friendship research meets real-life stories. Host Rachel Joy Swardson, founder of The Best Friend Project, investigates how women find, make, lose, and keep the platonic loves of their lives through original data, personal experience, and candid conversations.

Chapters: 

0:00 Opening — "Without Those Friendships, You'd Be Climbing the Walls"

1:00 Welcome to The Best Friend Project + Michelle Joins the Conversation

2:00 Michelle on Showing Up for Elle Through Grief

3:00 How Elle & Stephanie Show Up for Michelle Every Friday

5:00 The Power of Letting People In When You're Struggling

6:00 How Elle, Michelle & Stephanie's Friendship Was Born Out of Necessity

8:00 "Meet People Where They're At" — What Authentic Friendship Looks Like

9:00 Rachel Reflects on Survival Mode, Male Friends & Her First Real Female Friendship

11:00 Words of Advice for Anyone Struggling with Friendship

12:00 "Humble Yourself" — Elle's Honest Take on Growing Through Friendship

13:00 How to Be a Good Friend When You Have No Time or Capacity

14:00 "It's Not Do You Have Time for Me — It's How Can I Meet You Where You Are"

15:00 Michelle Opens Up: Poverty, Shame & Learning to Let People In

17:00 Overgiving to Be Loved — "If I Do This, Then You Will Love Me"

18:00 Elle Reflects on Michelle & Stephanie's Strength and Intelligence

19:00 Where to Follow Elle (Shameless Elle) & Michelle (Life of a Widow)

20:00 The Taylor Swift Origin Story Behind Michelle's Handle

21:00 Rachel's Closing Reflections — Seeing the Right People in Your Darkest Hour

22:00 Next Week: Noelle Rhodes on the Burden of Being the Funny Friend

#TheBestFriendProject #FemaleFriendship #GriefAndFriendship #WomenSupportingWomen #FriendshipAdvice #MakingFriendsAsAnAdult #VulnerabilityAndConnection

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Without those friendships, without that connection, it would be so much harder. And you would just be climbing the walls or waiting for the men in white coats to come and carry you away.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

This need for, you know, community and family and friends. You meet people where they're at.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

Look around and you'll see them. Women. Out walking, in restaurants, at the airport, stores, driving in their cars. Women are everywhere. And every time you see a woman, you're seeing someone who has, at some point, struggled with a friendship. Because it's one of the most complicated, meaningful, and rewarding relationships of our lives. But how to do friendship well isn't talked about enough. So let's start. I'm Rachel Schwartzen, former private investigator and TV journalist, and now host of the Best Friend Project, where we use original data and real stories to better understand how women find, make, and keep their friends. Thank you for listening. Well, Michelle, perfect timing. We were just crying and talking about you and friendship. And Elle was sharing how you met and how moved she was by you not only loaning her your vehicle to her when she had to go to the funeral, but having the candy and the water and all the little details that is just so loving and incredibly thoughtful. Um, in the midst of all the things you have going on in your life, to be able to take a minute and think about Ellen what she needed in that moment as really, really amazing.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Oh well, I it it's something that um having gone through losing my kid's father, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. That's the yeah, it's it's grief, isn't it? It's grief and beyond because yeah, so um my heart was really just hurting for her. So anything that I could do to make it a bit easier or um yeah, just be there. Just be there for someone when they're going through the shit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Yeah. Well, and we were also talking about the Fridays that Stephanie and Elle have come to join you and during your week.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

Bringing me a coffee, helping me keep my sanity because that yeah, it's been it's been a real challenge. And so those girls have um just shown up for me in a way that it could be very lonely. Could be very, very lonely to struggle and to be, God, you're gonna get me trucking. Like we're only a couple minutes in and I might be crying already. Um yeah, it could just be very, very lonely and um to have somebody say, I'm gonna come and I'm gonna show up, and you know, I think that's what Elle's always been um very good at uh in terms I remember once, I don't know if you've shared this already, but I remember um uh probably I don't know if it was that long after my husband had passed, but um, you were just like, We're gonna get together and the kids are invited and you've got to bring dessert. And it was just like that's what I needed. It's not this like, you know, oh it would be really nice to see you, and this kind of like put on uh nicety or something. It was just uh no, this is it, this is what's happening, and I just I really, really needed that. So um, yeah, I've I've just always appreciated that how how Elle shows up for people.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

It's amazing. She was just saying the same thing about you. Oh and it sounds like I mean you you know, life is hard and you've been through a lot of it, but it doesn't I mean could you have gotten through any of this without your friends?

SPEAKER_02 4:18

Uh not not and kept my sanity, you know. I think um uh I've I've joked with my therapist uh quite a few times actually. Like, when do the men in the white coats come in like take me away? Um uh and not to sort of joke or make light about mental health, but I think that um without those friendships, without that connection, it would be so much harder, and you would just um I don't know, be climbing the walls or waiting for the men in white coats to come and carry you away. Yeah, they've they've helped me keep my sanity a lot.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

I think that's beautiful too, because sometimes I feel like, you know, I want to be at my best when I meet people, and I want to meet people when I'm, you know, like I'll say no, no, no to things because I'm trying to get my shit together, or you know, I'm I'm not in a good space, and I don't want someone to see me like that. And I think one of like one of the takeaways from this conversation is being more vulnerable. Um this is not easy for me. Um but being able to tell people when I'm struggling so that I could foster a deeper connection with people. Um just hadn't really thought of it.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Yeah, I I mean, uh I was telling um Rachel that uh as much as we all, you know, we we've known each other for a bit and we've we liked each other, but we weren't super close. I said that I think our relationship, our our friendship, you know, yours, mine and Stephanie's has kind of come about out of this like necessity, like this like need, you know, for each other, our n this need for, you know, community and family and friends and um and none of us really seemed to have it. It was just this kind of odd thing, you know, Stephanie had been through a a really difficult time with um the separation from her uh person and and wanting to have another child and then not being able to go back home to to Ireland and she just really didn't have anyone around her and Michelle has been through, you know, hell this last week and a half uh week and a half year and a half, sorry. Yeah and and you know, myself as well. Like it's you know when when me and and my uh long-term best friend uh you know, when she parted ways, I, you know, I just needed to try to find people that I was close with. And then as I went through this last year and went through some, you know, difficult times, um, it definitely became this thing where I was like, you know what, I I need to put effort into um having having these people and have you know being a good friend to them and and being there for them, um, because I think we actually really need each other and we like each other and um I don't know, it just all seemed like we were kind of all going through this like weird uh phase in our lives where it just was you know, life was kind of shit and we needed somebody to hold hands and and fucking march through the shit with. And and that uh that's I mean that's kind of how I see it. I don't know um if that's what you you would say say about it, but yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

I think I think that sums it up pretty well, but I think like you meet people where they're at, don't you? Like in some ways, and so when you meet somebody and they're just themselves and they're authentic and just really genuine, I think that's what allows you to be that way in response, you know, in return. And so without that, I don't know like how how you can let somebody be there for you in the shit, you know. Like I remember it wasn't I mean how long ago was it that you guys came over and helped like clean my house because it was just so it was just cluttered and so overdoing it, and if I'm absolutely honest, it still is, but it's better than it was, and and and I I was able to kind of build on that. And I think like there's a certain amount of like I think what you were saying, Rachel, about like holding yourself back and not not letting people in or letting people like show up for you when you need them, and then there's you know, sometimes life just is gonna happen to you, and you're in that position, then you're like, I I need I need this, I need these people to come and help me, or I need these people to you know pull me along um and not leave me behind. And I think I think that's what we've probably done for each other, which is just really beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Well, and I feel that because like when my husband left me and my kids were six and five and three, and it was 2009, so height of the recession, nobody had money, there was no jobs, and I was in total survival mode. And you know, I was just head down all my time went to how do I get out of this financially, how do I take care of my kids? I mean, I was venomous, I wouldn't have been friends with me. I had no time for any anyone and anything. And before that happened, you know, I was in college taking care of my sick dad. And before that, I had like one high school friend, you know. So I've always had male friends, I had brothers growing up, I've always had guy friends, and I just think it's so different, you know, than a nurturing kind of you, you know, how you brought up sisterhood. Um and I've you know, other than my brain, I call her Gina because I don't want to use her real name, but I think that that friendship was so meaningful to me because it was really my first real adult female friendship that you know I wasn't just friends with her because my kids were on the same team or we were neighbors. Like we really liked each other, you know. And you know, and I and I just getting over that breakup has obviously been very difficult for me, which led to these conversations because I'm just trying to understand like, how do I how do I do this? And learning from you, and Elle so so eloquent and beautiful and sharing like how much she's learned from you. Um and you've taught her how to be a better friend, and Stephanie has as well. Um and I just wanted to say to you, Elle, I've learned from you, you know, so I'm learning from this conversation. Um I'm just so glad you're here, and thank you for having this conversation.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

Appreciate it. It's it's nice to talk about the women in your life. You know, everything's so geared around men, and I don't really care for men right now. Um, you know, uh the only people that I have in my life that I keep close are are Michelle and Stephanie, other than my family.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

Yeah. Are there any um like if either one, you know, if you could share like words of advice to someone who's struggling with friendship or you know, maybe it's listening to this conversation, having second guesses about the friendship that she had. Any advice for how they could approach it? Oh uh no.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

I don't have any advice. I I really don't. Um you know, I think I think as as far as you get in your life, you realize that you're still quite a few steps behind, you know. Like you you're never gonna stop figuring out that you were wrong last, you know, week and the week before that. And um, I think the only thing that you can do is humble yourself. Humble yourself and uh try to reach out to people and and try to uh bring people around you that you want to be like.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

And Michelle, for you, uh like you have no time for yourself. How do you make time for your friends? Like uh uh what advice do you have for someone who's like I'm too busy for friendship?

SPEAKER_02 12:32

Oh, yeah, that is a good question. I don't I think there's gonna be times where um you're maybe not the proactive one, and I think that's when somebody else being proactive and reaching out to you and saying, you know, hey, what's going on? Um I mean I think I can say that for me. I I don't think I've been a very good friend to other people in the last like couple of years since my husband passed away, just because I didn't have that much capacity, but so and you actually in something like that, you you you find out who your friends really are. You find out who are the ones that are gonna call you even although you haven't picked up in a while, and even although oh gosh, I'm getting emotional, um even although they're the ones always reaching out to you, like that's that's that's the beautiful part of friendship is that it's when you've built something that is really um uh valuable and and and uh and you have that relationship with someone, that they're gonna show up for you when you don't have that much time or that much capacity. And likewise, like it's ebbs and flows because then you're in that position to help them when they need it. Like we're just helping each other along at the end of the day. That's all we're doing.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

And I would say I would say that, you know, if you're somebody that's thinking, you know, this person doesn't have time for friends, I think that's uh that's a myth. That's not that's not a thing because you know, when you're true friends, you don't need them to find time for you. You go and meet them where they're at. You go and clean your house together, you um you you meet them in the school parking lot and you have coffee. You you know, those are the things that you do. You bring them dinner, you um that is a friendship. It's not, you know, do you have time for me? It it's how can I meet you where you are?

SPEAKER_00 14:40

I love that.

SPEAKER_02 14:41

Well said.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

Yeah, well said. And I think Elle would disagree, Michelle. You sound like you're an amazing friend.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

So Well, you should you should know me even before. No, it's true though. Like I remember um not that long ago, kind of realizing that a lot of my friendships that I had, like I didn't I didn't have a close lot of friends growing up. Um, I grew up very poor and actually lived in a one-bed flat with my nan and my my two brothers, and I was always really embarrassed that maybe people at school would would realize like like we were always the poor ones, and we were made fun of for being the poor ones, but I didn't want people to realise like just how poor we were. Um, and so I I at that point I couldn't let anyone close. I like everything was like I was so shy, couldn't let anyone in. And then uh through university working, whatever, and then learning some some techniques to how to make friends along the way. I I learned that um how I was showing up in friendships was if I do this, if I be this person of value, then they will love me. If I you know run myself ragged and be the one that's always showing up, I was the designated driver, I the things I did for people, but it wasn't healthy because I think I was just looking for uh connection and for love, and through I don't know, therapy and learning my own worth and whatever, then I've come to a much more healthy place with friendship, and so it's giving from a place where um where you just really value someone and yeah, and you value yourself, and then you can meet in that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

I I was the same, I would always try to buy my friendships. I'd like spend all my money at the bar and buy like you know $300 worth of shots for everyone because I was trying to like be cool and be, you know, the most generous, or you know, it's like you overgive, you over yeah, and it's it's it's not really in a place of like I'm doing this because I care about you. It's I'm doing this for me because I need you to see me, to love me, to choose me as your best friend, you know. Um I was very much that person as well, as a young person, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Yeah. Yeah, like that's hitting me so hard because the if I you know I've never heard someone say it like that, but like if I, you know, and whether it's you know, in in like a looking back on, you know, my pat my failed marriage, like if I, you know, clean the house, if I do this, if I do this, but it was always Michelle, if I then you will. And the answer was love me. Thank you for sharing that. Um I'm an El, I can see clearly the teaching and the teaching how to be friendship. I'm you're lucky to have each other.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

She's very smart and um she's she's always got uh a deep amount of insight. And um Michelle's a very introspective person. Like she's very smart, very intelligent, and also, you know, somebody that has been through a great deal, you know, that has grown up with uh hardship and continued hardship through throughout the rest of her life, and uh and that hasn't quite ended yet. Um we're rooting for her, we're hoping maybe in her 50s, possibly. Uh but you know, so far it's just nothing but hardship. Um but she's become quite an intelligent and uh very strong person um because of it. And and there's a million, you know, things to say about Stephanie as well. And I wish she was here to talk for herself. But she is um much more the shyer person in our uh little trio. Um, but she's an incredible uh smart person as well.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

Well, okay, so and I'll I'll have it in the show notes of where people can find you. But if you want to just take a minute, Michelle, and share your Instagram so people can follow you also and continue to learn from you. And then also, Elle, obviously, can you share your Instagram too? So one of you go first.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

You go, Michelle. You go first.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Me?

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Yeah, you go first. Uh shameless L everywhere. And just watch the spelling because there's all those little fuckers that are trying to take my videos and make money off of me. And, you know, anyways, you can tell by the really sad, griefy posts. If if there's like four or five really sad sack posts, that's probably my channel. And if they look really happy and they're drooling over men, that's definitely not mine. Um, but yeah, shameless L, uh, E-L-L-E, um, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

And I'll have it in the show notes. So just go to the podcast, look at the page. Michelle, where can people hear more from you? Um, I am The Life of a Widow.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

It was it was supposed to be a play on, like, you know, Taylor Swift's got the life of a showgirl. The life of a widow. That's where it was a play on that. Uh I yeah, I love it. I love it. I actually really don't talk that much about widowhood. It's actually too sad. So I I'm looking for new handles if anyone's got to be.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

I love we just put in your bio, it's supposed to be like tennis.

SPEAKER_02 20:09

Yeah, I really like tennis.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

You know what? Just change it to like Ritz crackers or pickles or something. I mean else. Yeah, but I don't think it has to be related.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

I think it's so good. I think it's so good. Um, and I just adored your friendship and both of you. And I'm so, so, so grateful we took the time to come on and talk about friendship. And um, if you haven't yet taken the Best Friend Project survey, you can do so at the best friendproject.co. We'd love to hear from you. And there's an opportunity to be on the show if you would like to share your friendship stories with us. Um, so Al and Michelle, thank you so, so, so much for being here today. Thanks for having us. Appreciate it. Oh, I needed that laugh so bad when Michelle said her Instagram handle, Life of a Widow, was modeled after Life of a Showgirl. And I appreciated Michelle talking about the impact that poverty had on her self-esteem and self-confidence and inability to really get out there and make friends. I can so relate to that. And her talking about the if I, you know, if I do this, you will love me. And Elle's ability to, you know, kind of have the veil lifted. You know, after her best friend broke up with her, and then, you know, the passing of her children's father, you know, she was really able to see more clearly people around her. You know, in her darkest hour, her deepest despair, she was like, wait a minute, these amazing women have been around me, I just wasn't seeing them. You know, it's like we can put all the energy into the wrong relationships, and these other ones are like, we're just here when you're ready. Um, and that was a huge takeaway for me. Huge takeaway. Really, really enjoyed that conversation. Thank you so much for listening. Please subscribe if you haven't already. It means the world to me to be able to share these stories with all of you. And um next week you will hear from Noelle Rhodes, who is a New Jersey comic and is very funny, has a very interesting take on the cultural differences of friendships. You know, w friends in New York are different than friends in California. Um, she also talks about being the funny friend and kind of the burden, you know, and the isolation that can come from being the comic relief. So, what happens when she's sad? We'll find out next week on that episode. So, thank you so much for being here.