Ep 14: How Does Friendship Survive Menopause | Jen Cote and Margaret Honda

Menopause is a chemical castration that feels like it is wrecking your body and mind. So how do friendships survive it?

Our original research says women need friends who make them feel safe, who remember the small things, and don't cancel. All of which isn't humanly possible during menopause. (Not for nothing, my former best friend and I were both in it when our friendship ended. I mean, could be something to that?)  On this episode of The Best Friend Project you will meet Jen Cote and Margaret Honda. Friends since middle school who wrote the hilariously witty The Hormonal Hangover Society book about menopause. We talk friendship, writing, melting and more.

In this episode:

Friendship gives, and menopause takes. How do we survive it?
- Women shrinking. Why do we apologize for bold moves?
- How Jen and Margaret have stayed friends for 40+ years through breakups, kids, and bad haircuts
- Co-authoring with your best friend, and why humor was the only way through it
- Jen's answer to the question “What happens when you can't be the glue anymore?”
- And what's Reese Witherspoon have to do with all of this anyway?

Connect with Jen and Marg: 

Instagram @hormonal_hangover , Facebook,  and LinkedIn

Website

To learn more, visit The Best Friend Project.co . While you're there, discover your Friendship Archetype by taking the  Friendship Survey We'd also love to stay in touch—come say hello on Instagram  and Facebook (we will follow you back!)  If you need to reach us, you can always email us at Hello@TheBFProject.com.

Chapters: 

00:00 We don't have the energy to keep begging the group to get together
 00:45 Welcome to The Best Friend Project
 01:20 Meet Jen Cote and Margaret Honda
 02:20 The Reese Witherspoon event, and the woman on a mission
 04:35 "Edit your friends" and the letter I wrote about it
 05:40 Cutting the line and handing it over
 07:45 Why we apologize for our own baller moves
 09:15 The book nobody thinks they want to read
 11:00 Senile vaginitis and the naming problem
 12:20 Our mothers never modeled this for us
 14:15 The question at the heart of this episode
 16:00 "I can't be the glue all the time"
 16:45 Did menopause end my friendship?
 19:30 Venting, commiserating, and hijacking the story
 23:10 The naked haddock incident
 24:05 How do you have nine best friends?
 26:15 Roles, thick skin, and knowing each other's trigger points
 28:20 Annie, and the sleepovers that keep her here
 30:35 Unreal upcoming events and the annual gala
 32:35 What co-writing a book did to their friendship
 36:30 Grace for the friendship you did not get to fix
 38:15 Put the check-in in your phone
 39:45 Where to find The Hormonal Hangover Society
 40:50 Next week: Donielle Young, the grief disruptor

#TheBestFriendProject #FemaleFriendship #WomenSupportingWomen #FriendshipMatters #MidlifeWomen #MidlifeFriendship #Menopause #Perimenopause #MenopauseSupport #HormonalHangover #HormonalHangoverSociety #BrainFog #MenopauseAndFriendship #FriendshipBreakup #WomenOver40 #WomenOver50 #GirlfriendGoals #MakingFriendsAsAnAdult #MenopauseHumor #WomensHealth #FriendshipPodcast #WomenPodcasters #ReeseWitherspoon #EditYourFriends

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

We don't have as much patience and tolerance for things and the things that we overdid before, like even in relationships and friendships. Like if one person is the one that always organizes everything, that person might not have as much energy to keep sending out the text and begging the group to get together.

SPEAKER_03 0:17

It isn't just the romantic or the partnership aspect. It's all friendships and work situations.

SPEAKER_04 0:23

Friends have shared that they don't like it when their friends complain and talk about themselves all the time. So, like, where do you guys find that balance between like venting and full-on self-absorption? Gosh.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Do you hmm? What do you think, Margaret?

SPEAKER_04 0:41

Um look around and you'll see them. Women. Out walking, in restaurants, at the airport, stores, driving in their cars. Women are everywhere. And every time you see a woman, you're seeing someone who has, at some point, struggled with a friendship. Because it's one of the most complicated, meaningful, and rewarding relationships of our lives. But how to do friendship well isn't talked about enough. So let's start. I'm Rachel Schwarzen, former private investigator and TV journalist, and now host of the Best Friend Project, where we use original data and real stories to better understand how women find, make, and keep their friends. Thank you for listening. And we're back with Jen Coda and Margaret Honda. These two have been friends since middle school. They have survived over 40 years of the awkward phases, the questionable fashion choices, career choices, kids, everything in between. And then when midlife hit with zero warning, they decided to handle the heat and the humor by flipping the script. Together they wrote the Hormonal Hangover Society, a new member welcome book to the hottest season of your life, a sassy guide to the non-exclusive club that no one asked to join. Jen and Margaret, thank you so much for being on the Best Run project. So happy to have you here. Thank you for having us. We appreciate it. We're excited. I'm excited too. And Jen, it's so much fun to see you again because when we met, um, it was at the Hello Sunshine Reese Witherspoon Shine Away event where I got my free swag hat. Do you remember? Do you remember when we I was using my bag today, actually, at the grocery store? So I remember seeing you like with like intensity wrapped around your face. Like just like intense. And Margaret, you weren't there though. You're the co-author. So I'll just I'll just give you like a little POV. Uh you know, it's like this beautiful flowers on every table, so extremely well branded, like very on brand for Reese. Everything is sunshine and joyful. There's like a popsicle station, like a wellness station, and in the midst of all of it is your sassy coworker, like dun dun dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, like on a mission. On a mission. Literally, hang on. On a mission with her book in hand. Like, where's Reese? Where's Reese? I gotta get my book to Reese. But I was like, oh, that's a that's a my people people. Because like you just know you're like when you meet a hustler, you're like, I'm a hustler, she's a hustler.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Um Jen, do you remember that? I see me in her. I love that.

SPEAKER_04 3:32

I love that. Well, and the yin and yang. I want to talk about your friendship. Um Jen, do you remember that? Any thoughts from that event? I do remember that.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

I do remember it. I remember just it was such an unbelievable experience and in the the details to everything and trying to balance enjoying it with also trying to, you know, network, do the task at hand. There's so like, for example, you and I got pulled apart at one point and I wanted to keep talking to you, but then I went to the mentor bar and then someone asked me part of TikTok. I'm like, where did she go? So we had our special moment though, and you got to sneak your little note to Reese, and I just I just sat behind holding my book because I was afraid.

SPEAKER_04 4:16

Okay, so Margaret, there's a moment at the the event where you know Reese's like on stage, she's just like walking sunshine, literally. And then you there's three different levels. There's the VIP section, there's the you know, author section from Reese Witherswin's book club, where everyone can go and meet the authors and hear what they have to say. There's a soundbathing expedition, like all kinds of things. These things filled up super duper fast. And I wasn't VIP, so I couldn't get into any of these things. But then, like, you get like, you don't even hear that Reese's in the room, you like feel it and all the energy, like the women in the house. Everyone, and they're like, Reese's here, Reese's here. And I look over and there's like a line of women just sort of casually strolling towards there, but like with this like, oh my god, Reese's here moment on their face. Yeah. And then she's standing by the elevator, and I was there because Reese had posted recently to that event. So this was in October of 2025, and Reese had posted on her Instagram page, edit your friends. And it hit me like in a not good way because I'm like, well, I think I just got edited. And then I was like, what is this like casual throw it out there, edit your friends language that someone with millions of followers is just going to casually throw out on Instagram? Because I'm like, what like what does that mean? Did I get deleted? Did I get rewritten? Was I replaced? Did I just get a whiteout and now I just never existed? And so I wrote Reese a very short, like little typed written letter saying, like, I want to understand what you meant. Can you just share that with me or us, even on a stage? Like, whether she's on the podcast or talking to me personally, I just really wanted to know what she meant. So anyway, there's a line of all these women, and I reach into my bag and I have like my shitty little printout from my, you know, like little prep word processor at home. And I walked over to her, just like bull guarded the whole line. And I just like, I literally was like this. I go, I wrote you a letter. And she takes it from me. And right at the same time, her bodyguard is like this, and she's like, it's okay. And she's holding the paper, and I'm holding the paper, and we're looking at each other's eyes. And I'm like, that parasocial relationship. Like, I'm like, I totally know her, you know, because I've like seen every movie. I've loved her forever. I've watched her grow up. Right. And she looks at me dead in the eyes and she goes, That's so sweet of you. Thank you. And then I didn't say anything. I should have said that, because you said this thing on Instagram that I didn't love, but I love you and I need to know more. And I go, You're welcome. Like, I've never heard from her since. So I'm like, okay, I gotta at least got to give it to her.

SPEAKER_03 6:53

So oh my gosh, Nabi. It's so hard to predict how you're going to react in situations like that. You know, you think you're gonna be like perfect, and then all of a sudden it's like deer and headlights.

SPEAKER_04 7:05

Oh, for sure. I not only did I think it was gonna be perfect, I thought she was gonna be like, oh my God, Rachel Swartz and there you are. Right. Like she's been watching me and my never been in a movie before. And yeah, I in my mind, like we would be best friends, she'd pull me up on stage, we would talk about friendship. I can't believe I'm saying this out loud. But you know, like you just get these things in your head that that's how it's gonna be. That's not how it was. Um but I got to meet Jen and you made it.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Yeah. And you made it further than I did. I made the mistake of asking the person next door if I could give her the book, and they said no. And I actually strategically, which is so terrible, I put it in a bag that I knew she would recognize. She has a house. Um, I'm not gonna say where, and our friends have a house there, and we went to visit. And the bag is from that place. And I was like, maybe she'll notice the bag and think I'm her person, and she'll take the book. But anyway, didn't work out for me.

SPEAKER_04 8:02

Okay, a quick question. You just did a brilliant strategic move, but I heard you call it bad. Like, what is that about us? Because that's genius to go to like a place that she's gonna know. And meanwhile, I'm there hiding my signs in bathrooms, like taping them up in every single bathroom stall. And I was thinking, you know, this is naughty, this is bad. I shouldn't be doing this. This is sort of manipulative, you know, just like how you decide your strategic move, which is completely bothered in my opinion, was bad. You know, but then I was like, we're here because Reese says be bold. We're here because she says don't live apologetically. Like we're here because she says color outside of the lines. Right. So I just want to call you on that as your friend because I catch myself doing the same thing of being like really sheepish that I was a baller and did a bold move. You didn't know.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Yeah, we're apologizing. Right. We're apologizing for being forward and aggressive when we're, you know, that's what you you've gotta you gotta try.

SPEAKER_04 9:05

Yeah. Yeah. So can't, you know. And in the all this, the people I've been interviewing for the podcasts and things, I'm learning about reframing and whatnot. So I'm trying to reframe that and just sharing with you as your now friend. Reframe that shit because that was a baller move.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

It was a baller move. Yeah. Own it.

SPEAKER_04 9:23

Well, another baller move was the two of you coming up with this book. And truth be told, when I met you and you're like, oh, I wrote a book on menopause, I was like, mm-hmm. Cause I'm like, I don't want to read about menopause, like I fucking hate menopause. Like the last thing I want to do is know more.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

Join the club, join the society.

SPEAKER_04 9:39

Right, right. Welcome.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

You're an A-list member.

SPEAKER_04 9:41

And yeah, I mean, it's similar to like when I joined the Dead Dad's Club. I didn't know that there was a Dead Dad's Club out there until my dad died. And then all these people are like, You're in the Dead Dad Club. And I'm like, Oh, great. I didn't want to be here, but it happens. You're right. Just like menopause happens, um, which is, you know, speaking of death, like the death of our youth and our vibrancy. A segue. But yeah, exactly. But this is so it's the perfect size, adorable. But I've gotta give a shout out to your designers. Um and I have them here, Elisa von Lukerman and edited by Joni McNeil. Did I say von Luckerman right? Von Leckmann. Von Leckmann. Alyssa von Leckmann. Um, because this is just it's charming. It's so easy to read, so well laid out, extremely clever. But then also the information is pretty heady and you know, it's it's not for children. I mean, this is like real stuff. You know, but when you get into some like medical stuff and you know, the physiological, biological things that are happening, but it's delivered in a way that, you know, then there's like a knockout punchline, hilarious moment after the fact. Um, and I love that. I love that. So what was it?

SPEAKER_00 11:01

Thank you. Yeah. Well, okay.

SPEAKER_04 11:03

Good. Well, you nail that. And then I before we get going on this, I do have to, and I'm not fact-checking you. I'm just an absolute consternation when I read this. Like I underlined it, wrote in it, put it in my show notes. But is it true that no one talked about menopause before because it didn't get the rebranding to be called jiri and syndrome of menopause?

SPEAKER_00 11:28

Well, it was called jiri, whatever. I can't even say the word, but it was at one point it was labeled market, what was it called? And we didn't put it in there, did we? Senile vagina. Yeah, no, it's senile vagina.

SPEAKER_03 11:38

No, senile senile vaginitis. Yes. Senile vaginitis, yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, I mean they we they never, you know, women's bodies just never got any attention, you know, and from a medical and scientific standpoint for so many years, right? So when things started to change for us in those, you know, 40 plus years, sometimes earlier for people, um, you know, it just was never talked about. It didn't even really have a name, it didn't have anything. Um, and so for so many years, it was just not even discussed. And then it was given all sorts of ugly, not marketable names, in that nobody would want to talk about it, right? So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

So was it something you just quietly, it wasn't that long ago. I mean, it's just now getting its glow off.

SPEAKER_04 12:26

But wait, really, really truly, I just need to understand this. Was it not called menopause until 2014? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Yeah. I believe yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:34

I mean, that's bananas. And no wonder like Navy.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Yeah. And it comes from a term, like it's a Latin word. I don't know, but yeah. To go back and look at it.

SPEAKER_04 12:48

No wonder we didn't talk about it. No wonder our mothers didn't talk about it. You know, so like I I liken it to how baby formula came out in the 70s when I was born and I was formula fed. And then when I had my children and I wanted to breastfeed, I didn't have a nursing maternal mentor because my mom hadn't nursed us. Right. And she was like, uh, you don't need to do that. They make formula, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I feel like it's the same thing. Like, we didn't have mothers who talked about menopause, neither did they, because no one has talked about it. So we're on the forefront of this conversation, which I never thought about before.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

And it's just preparing the our next generation of women, just getting them thinking about getting their bodies prepared for it in the 30s. Like it's just a heads up. Like, hey, you know, wacky weird things are going to happen. Just you're not crazy, and just maybe dig in a little deeper on some ways that you can make it a little easier for yourself.

SPEAKER_03 13:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

And there's a lot of I mean, 20 years ago you did not have the amount of women in the workforce that you have today.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

In the stress of certain things. So you have women that are in high powered just any kind of job where they're dealing with this. And it's, you know, it's a lot. It's it's causing a huge um situation in the workforce too. They're from a retention standpoint, it's it's really in a good spot right now, I think.

SPEAKER_04 14:16

I do also think that when our mothers were going through menopause, like day drinking wasn't shamed like it is now. Like I feel like back then they weren't working and they had camps or like, and the kids are at school, and I will have another glass of wine.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Well, wasn't there a saw on mommy's little helper or something?

SPEAKER_04 14:36

Oh, Valley of the Dolls, a little pill for sure. Yeah, there was a lot of things. But I do think that the timing of this conversation um has evoked an aspect of my friendship breakup that I had never considered before. Um and if the key symptoms of menopause include brain fog, anxiety, mood swings, confusion, lack of energy. And as the Best From Project survey reveals, women value friends who show up, who remember birth dates, who do the little things, who have the energy to go out and who don't cancel plans. So how are we able to be good friends during menopause when everything about menopause negates our ability to show up and be present?

SPEAKER_03 15:25

That's such an interesting point. And I never really thought about it. I'm currently, I'm, I am married. I'm I'm happily married, but you know, that that um really is something that has been highlighted as it pertains to those types of relationships, right? The menopause, the change that we go through, our nurture, our ability to nurture goes way down. Um, you know, we have we stand up for ourselves more. Um, all of those things that have a major impact in relationships, not just marriages, any relationship into your brain. I never really thought about it. From a friendship standpoint. And that's fascinating that you bring that up.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

Yeah. Rachel, and the thing is, it's like we're all getting to the, you know, I don't give a fuck stage a little bit more now, and we don't have as much patience and tolerance for things and the things that we overdid before, like even in relationships and friendships. Like if one person is the one that always organizes everything, that person might not have as much energy to keep sending out the text and begging the group to get together.

SPEAKER_03 16:34

I think Jen's talking about herself here just as an example.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

I I might be talking about myself because I'm not gonna put another text out there for us to say when are we gonna get together? Can't be the glue all the time.

SPEAKER_04 16:45

No, but I love that. And and it's funny too, Margaret, that when I brought up friendship, you went right to romantic relationship and started talking about your husband. And it but I think it's funny because I think that's when we think about relationships, we tend to put them in the romantic context. And when we think about the implications of menopause, I think we go right to intimacy and intimacy issues. And that's more physical. And you did bring up nurturing too. But when it comes to the friendship side of things, like I 100% conclusively able now, you know, a year and a half to look back on it. But I at the time of my breakup, to your point, Jen, I was in the I don't give a fuck anymore stage. Like I'm not gonna put up with this. But I also was like, I'm irritable, I'm not gonna say anything, I'm gonna eat this, I'm gonna do all this stuff. Would I have handled everything differently if I wasn't going into menopause? Yeah. I mean, I for sure think I would have, although it's convenient to rewrite history, but I I think I would have.

SPEAKER_03 17:50

No, and I I and I totally agree and appreciate this conversation because that is really the the relationships of being, you know, a partner are the ones that are highlighted currently mostly with this dialogue around menopause, where what you're saying is so right on and so interesting that it it isn't just the romantic or the partnership aspect, it's all friendships and work situations, like generously.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Yeah, and you know what's so interesting too about this, specifically too is yes, so like what's good about everyone talking about a little bit more is spouses are starting, men are starting to have a little bit more understanding, so are the kids, and so are the friendships. So, like for our group of friends, we've been friends for so long that we all know we're gonna have our ups and downs. Like we all know Jen's gonna be moody now and again or this or that. And we have we have patience and understanding for each other. And and if it's an you know, it's I wonder if longer friendships sometimes can sustain it more because it was more of an understanding versus some newer friendships, like in your instance, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 18:57

Yeah, I d I don't know either. And I mean, I think a lot of it depends on obviously what the history of that friendship was, because sometimes just because you've been friends a long time, you know, it we tend to value those relationships as we should for different reasons, but it doesn't mean that history was just like, oh my gosh, this person was the greatest person ever. I do find it amazing too the amount of times you guys reference friendship in this book. Um, like down to on page 31, you talk about venting to a friend as being helpful. And you talk about friend community. Um, there's a beautiful part where you say, like, if you don't have anyone to talk to, just find any woman your age, because I promise you they're going through it too, and they need and want to talk about these things. And in the spirit of the friendship project, looking at how do we find, make and keep friends, certainly if I'm in line that the DB and the woman in front of you who's my age has like a sweatball running down her face and the air conditioning set at 68, I would be like, hey, sister, I understand. However, right, I feel you. Yeah. But another part of the survey that comes up though, which I feel like is a challenge, and I want your guys your collective opinion on this, if venting to a friend can be helpful for the person venting, again, in the survey, friends have shared that they don't like it when their friends complain and talk about themselves all the time. So, like, where do you guys find that balance between like venting and full-on self-absorption, especially if old people are irritable and going through it, you know?

SPEAKER_00 20:26

Yeah, you know, I'm thinking about our group of friends, and every everyone's pretty like they're all good. Like if everyone takes turns, actually. No one is too self-involved, and they they rant like everyone sets their time for their rant. And afterwards, like, oh my god, I took up all this time, and then they stop.

SPEAKER_03 20:47

And I think that we're we don't see each other enough. Yeah, Rachel, like when we see each other, it's like after uh well, I mean, we're always in contact, like through chats and stuff like that. Yeah, but we're not uh physically seeing each other. It's like three or four or five months can go by, and then we kind of all collectively get together. So there's a lot of just general catching up that we do, and so we do what Jen says, I think, really well. Um, what I will say is that I catch myself with newer friends. When we go out, let's just say, and they're telling me something, I immediately turn it to me because I think that's um relating. So I'm teaching myself not to do that that often. Because if you're pointing all of a sudden I'll catch myself saying things about my about me in that scenario or trying to relate to that person, but it ends up being about me. Interesting. And I realized over the last number of years that I don't think people take it like that. I don't think they think I'm relating, they think I'm you know, bringing it to me and starting to vent. Yeah. About me.

SPEAKER_04 21:58

Yeah. Interesting. My husband will have a tendency, like, I'll say something and he'll go, Yeah, millions of people have that, or d you know, and I'm like, Okay, so I'm just anonymous. I'm just like, I am a woman standing in front of you telling you this. And then, but to your point, Margaret, like he'll say things like, Honey, I'm trying to make you feel better that you're not alone. I'm like, then no talking. It's only hugging. It's whisper into my ears, you kiss my forehead and say, You're not alone. That's all you need to say. I don't need other stats and data of enough of my own. No. Um, but again, I'm irritable, right? So Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

Yeah, we are.

SPEAKER_04 22:30

So I think what I hear you saying though, too, is that, you know, uh like Jenna, like we said about sort of you take turns um to do that because I think it is there's commiseration and then there's like really having empathy. And like I feel like commiserating is a form of empathy. Like, oh yeah, I have hot flashes too. Yes, I haven't slept in three. Right, right. You know, yes, my hair's thinning. Um, so that's like empathetic commisery, right? But then if they're going through something and I have yet to experience it, so I'm just thinking about by the way, if you're underage and you have not gone through menopause, I hope you're still listening. And to all the men who might be listening, keep listening because understanding this is really important because that empathy when we just need to express something, although it might come out sideways because of the brain fog and the mood swings and things like that. Um it can be challenging.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

Yeah, it's it's I the other we were at we went down to dinner at Legal C the other day, and I ordered naked haddock. That's how I order it. I don't want anything on my haddock. And it came with bread and crumbs on it and a lot of butter, and my broccoli had butter. It's like I can take it back, and it took too long to get there, and I said, No. I I'm just talking about the emotional swing of a woman. I couldn't look the waiter in the face. I have my face down in my plate because two things were gonna happen. I was either gonna take that plate and throw it, or I was just gonna start crying. Like the emo I don't know, I can't believe like this is just an like that's it's just an emotion. I don't know, but yeah. We're it's an emotional tie.

SPEAKER_04 24:08

Well, we're teenagers. Like our you know, it's like the same, it's like when you're a teenager, your hormonal, you're you know, I was pouting. Yeah. Well, I mean, I I a hundred percent get that. Um you also just said something interesting, and Jen, when I when we connect, when we reconnected after the um conference, and you said that you had nine best friends. So I suffer from resting bitch face, I just have it. But when I read that, I was like, oh no, I have full-on bitch face right now because I was like, who? How? Like, how do you have all of these friends? I was so jealous and like immediately like almost didn't like you. I was like, Oh, she has nice friends. Like, oh, she must be so much nicer than I'll ever be. But but then when I got to know you and you're like, no, there's like a couple from here and a couple from there in college, and we've sort of all assembled and everyone's met each other, and then they have friendships. Um can you just share how like is there a secret sauce to that, or is it just unique to you, or what what do you attribute it to?

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Gosh.

SPEAKER_03 25:16

Do you what do you think, Margaret? Um, you know, Rachel, I think that where we have grown up um has a lot to do with it. And we just all live in this uh New England. In okay, East Coast. Yeah, Massachusetts, New Hampshire. Um and we all live here still. Like we've gone and done things, like I've gone and lived other places, but we've all come back to the same area. And I think that I've seen this in a lot of people who have grown up here, but they have a really core group of friends that have remained friends, even though they may have gone off and come back. So I I don't know, it's something in the water around here, I swear. I know Jen's husband has the same thing with his group of friends that he grew up strong, really strong. Yeah. And so I yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

I would say also there are different roles of different people. And we talk about it in the book. We talk about the, you know, the who what character reminds you of your group of friends. And in those characters that we did, those are our people. Like you, I guess maybe we're lucky and blessed in that we, you know, we you have someone that is very empathetic, and then you have the event planner, and then you have the funny one, and uh all of us are collectively funny. I would say one thing is we all have thick skin. We can take a joke even direct it at us because we can do and I think we just it's respect to a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Like we've never let anything. Yeah, I don't think never. Yeah. Never. No.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

I think um we've never had like breakups people with groups of friends where like it's bad.

SPEAKER_03 27:02

Like it's it ha we haven't had any we've never had like the gang up on two people, you know, four against two or anything like that. Like any any issues that have come up have usually been an individual thing and it's you know worked out in their way. Um, I think that what Jen said earlier about the respect piece is that we have known each other for so long and that we um, I mean, we're still learning about each other, which is interesting, right? There are still things that I'm learning about some of the people in our friend group that um, you know, that I never knew, like personal things, right? Like because we just sometimes we just don't go that level, that deep level, right? A lot of it is just about like what's happening with us today and that sort of thing. But I think that level of respect and understanding we've gotten to know each other and our trigger points. I think that we really recognize what all of our trigger points might be and know how to tread lightly when we see the triggers happening. Yeah. Right. Um, with all of us, right? So, and we can um plan accordingly when we know that that might be a scenario that could be bubbling up. We're like, okay, in my mind, I think, okay, this is how I need to be in this moment for this person. Yeah. You know, so I kind of adjust accordingly.

SPEAKER_04 28:14

Well, it sounds like you also have a very social group of friends. Like some friends are just sort of they text, they do whatever. But I mean, it does sound like, like Jen, you've referenced like getting together and you know, planning things and stuff. I mean, it sounds like you guys make an effort to see each other and not let certain things get into it. We do.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Yeah, we definitely make sure we have an overnight or two overnights at least twice a year. And I would say too, we really um we were always good that way, but when our friend Annie was sick with cancer and she's passed, and that's we dedicate the book to it was that was her to get together for her in the laughter was like really, really important to us, and we made extra efforts during those times to be there for her too. And you know, it's just when we're together, we there's a lot of laughing. And that's it's great. We unfortunately we don't we can't do it as much, but maybe once some of them have their kids off to college, we can, but we can't do it as much.

SPEAKER_04 29:10

So um, did Annie get a chance to read the book? No. What do you think she would think of it?

SPEAKER_03 29:18

Oh, she would love it. She wouldn't have rattled it up the the humor. She was like next level humor, and she was like, so the wit, the quick wit on her. Um, we were just talking about this. We did a panel the other day for International Women's Day, and we brought up the fact that writing something with humor is actually very difficult because you everybody has a different sense of humor. Um, you don't want to go too far and have people be offended by it. Um, you don't want to, you know, misrepresent or underrepresent, you know, viewpoints or perspectives. Um, and so Annie wouldn't have cared about that. She would have just been like, let's put it all in.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

She's so sassy and she would have just, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

She would have just gone for it. And Jen and I were like, yeah, maybe not, maybe not this, maybe not that. You'd be like, fuck it, do it.

SPEAKER_04 30:15

So also on that note, I mean, she's what a ray of light. Um, you know, and you talked about sort of the cast of friends, and um, I can't imagine what a gap that that, you know, has left. But it sounds like you've done such a beautiful job as a group honoring her and her memory and her legacy. And um, I just think that's beautiful. I loved seeing the the dedication to her um in the beginning of the book too. So within that, when you talk about getting together and different events and things like that and and sleepovers, which I love when friends do, especially as adults, um, one of the sections in the book that I saw in first I read it in the um like your table of contents, you have something called Unreal Upcoming Events. And I read that and I was like, oh geez, like they're gonna be so out of date by the time these happen. Because I'm thinking they're gonna be like events, you, you know, your speaking engagements and things. And I was like, oh boy. So I went right to it, and you know, it's this unreal event. So funny. I'm just gonna read a little bit. So members of the hormonal hangover society have access to an array of hypothetical happenings. Here are just a few of the not-to-be-missed opportunities. Keep your virtual calendar updated as these events can come and go quickly, repeat themselves every week for months, or be canceled without warning. And I mean, it's so funny, like the way, first of all, brilliant, again, how it's laid out. You know, you've got the um, the waist not want not, the belly laughs and bladder hacks, brain fog bonanza. Um, I mean, it's just so funny. And then, you know, your annual gala, which I have to read. The society's annual gala is a chance to toast the go big or go home gals around you who jumped headfirst into the hormonal hurricane in search of inner peace, lost key cars, and their waistline. While our gala might be on paper only, grab your real life lifelines for a celebratory night and cheers to your own outstanding achievers. I absolutely love that you have encourage women to get together. You encourage people to talk about it. And I feel like not only is this a great gift, but it's like the gifter can be like, and you're getting it all at the annual gala and we're gonna talk about this. Or, you know, you think about mothers today. I didn't do this. Um, but like they have their little pre period pack that they give their daughters and you know, to prepare them. Oh, right, yeah. You know, so like, are we gonna be the grandmothers to our daughters who are like, hey, honey. Yeah. I know you think I think so. I mean, I think so. I feel like it. Um, what was it like to work on this together? Like, did you feel like it taxed your friendship? Did you make it you closer?

SPEAKER_03 32:59

Like, how did it go? I mean, we're definitely closer just because we're we talk every day still, pretty much. I mean, there are some days we don't, but um, and so you know, to what's that?

SPEAKER_00 33:11

I try and give you a break once in a while. She does have a full-time job. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:17

Minor detail. Um so yeah, and you know, of course, I would always we would always be up to date, like kind of generally about what's happening in our lives, the kids, yada, yada, yada. Um, but you know, when you're speaking that frequently, you get to know like everything that's happening, you know, like today this happened, and you know, this is happening with, you know, this my son, her son. And yeah, so for that reason, we, you know, you feel much more connected, um, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 33:47

What about like how did you agree on the content? Or was it just fluid and it was like, oh my gosh, yes.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

And um, so we started, uh, I was not, I'm not super techie, as you learned pretty quickly at the beginning of this podcast. Um, so we started in a Google Drive, which I had to be introduced to. So we basically wrote in a Google Doc, and we had a lot of, you know, a lot of uh tracks changes, and we would both write and then we would talk at least once a week and go over what the writing was for the week. And then there were certain things where I tend to be very um, Margaret's a little more focused and organized, and I'm like, so there was times which the writing would go a certain way, and I you know, I'd hang on to it maybe a little longer than I should, and Margaret would have to be like the bad cop and say, I this isn't making sense to me. And I'm like, Well, I'm not ready to give it up. So she would be patiently waiting, and then I would come to So it was just a lot of re I I go back to the word respect, like we you know, we weren't always we you know, we we had to we each had to give and bend on a few things here and there because we realized they mattered to one another.

SPEAKER_03 35:01

And trying to do that whole, like you you were saying it earlier, Rachel, about like the puberty piece. Like we were trying to figure out what's the lane here to try to convey that same message, but in a humorous way, in a non-scientific way, even though we knew we needed to like put in the science to all of this. Um, just to say, like, we yeah, we know we've done our research, right? We know about these things. And so um, it took a while.

SPEAKER_02 35:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:26

Sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 35:28

Go ahead, Jen. No, no, go ahead, finish.

SPEAKER_03 35:32

No, you go. No, it just took a while for us to get to a point where we didn't want to be preachy, right? We didn't want to like give advice.

SPEAKER_04 35:40

One of the things, too, that I think is so beautiful is your outreach that you do with this. So I know that you do the virtual lunches for corporations if they want to have HR talk to people or, you know, presumably book clubs and things like that, where you could have your whole book club read it and then invite you guys to be just like we're sitting down and having that conversation. I think that that's amazing. And these are all things that anyone can find when they go to your website. Um and they can follow more about it on the hormonalhangover.com. Um so is there anything else that you guys want to share about friendship too within menopause, which I do think it's a little bit interesting because we were supposed to have this conversation last week, but then brain fog set in and dates got switched around and you know, big time. And then it's like that happens, but you think like, like I was thinking, okay, what if this was my birthday party and you guys missed it? Or, you know, so I was thinking about the stress that menopause can put on friendship, um, and I guess the mutual apathy that's required. But any last thoughts on on how we can be experiencing all of this and then be irritable with our friends and not, I guess maybe I wish that I hadn't held I guess myself or her to such like a rigid standard, you know, and it just wasn't like me. Um, but I I do blame menopause for at least being a presence in it, a negative evil spirit around our friendship that could have contributed to where we are.

SPEAKER_03 37:19

Yeah, I mean it's such a tough time and and we can't be so hard on ourselves because we we really uh without the right either you know help that we're talking with somebody about it, or if it's the medical side of things, um I would just say that, you know, yes, I you wish you could maybe take that back, but you you can't. So like it's just it's too life is too short. I mean, I know that you might have guilt associated with it, um, but that's that's a tough one. I mean, I just give yourself some some grace with that.

SPEAKER_04 37:54

Well, thank you. And it's it was haunting in so many ways when I read the dedication to Annie and hearing Jen talk about Annie and you guys talk about Annie. You just think like even though we're broken up, if I ever found out something happened to her, I would be devastated.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

You know, and that's telling me of course, of course.

SPEAKER_04 38:11

And probably it would be the same, you know. So there's something unresolved. There are maybe sometimes you can just love each other and not be in each other's lives. I don't know, but maybe that's menopause talking.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

And I think Margaret's saying the word grace is the right word. And, you know, you need to not be so hard on yourself. There are, you know, it takes two two people to make a relationship. And at some point, you know, the thing I would say for advice too is to to your point about the brain fog. It's it is a little bit scary because I this entire ever since I messed up for last week, I I was second guessing every the time schedule for this, and I find that I'm having more sticky notes. Or I used to be the person that always like quickly checked in with people, and then all of a sudden something was happening going on. I'm like, I haven't checked in with this person in like two weeks. So I think mentally, if you know you're sort of slipping away and you're, you know, you're distracted, like we are all maybe just put something in the notes section of your phone like once a week. Be like, okay, did I check in with like just quick check-ins with people? Not force, but like we're forgetting. We I mean, we're all so busy that we're not able to check in with each other the way that we used to. And that can strain friendships.

SPEAKER_04 39:20

Right. Not checking the box to check in, but just I'm thinking of you. And you know, even if we have to set it a reminder, it's no, it's not any, it's not disingenuous. It's actually more thoughtful because we wanted to make sure we didn't forget because our brains just aren't right as you know, rapid fire as they used to be. Hopefully they'll get back. But I think that's a beautiful, a beautiful way of saying it too. So um, and for anyone listening who wants to hear more about this amazing project, the hormonal hangover, please visit the hormonal hangover.com. And for some hilarious Instagram content, you can visit both of them at hormonal underscore hangover and on TikTok at hormonal underscore hangover. Um, and I love having both of you also in the best friend project. Your surveys were really interesting, and I really appreciate the time that you took to take the surveys. Um, to you.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:22

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 40:23

It it's it's so friendships are so important, and we hear this everywhere. And helping people figure out what makes their friendships tick or what's not working, and and really putting a spotlight on that. And even with this to to the from teenagers through midlife, I I think it's great. I think a lot of people can be re you know, some self-reflection and learn from all of this.

SPEAKER_04 40:48

Thanks for saying that. And thank you for listening to the Best Friend Project. You can find more about the Best Friend Project at theBestfriendProject co. Follow along on Instagram, YouTube, and Facebook. Thank you for listening. Okay, one super fun side effect of starting a podcast at the ripe old age of 54 after a devastating best friend breakup is these wonderful friendships I'm making along the way. I met Jen about a year ago now, and we've stayed in touch, and I just I really value her in the world, and it was so much fun to meet Margaret, and really touching to hear how they've kept up the tradition of doing adult sleepovers to, you know, keep Annie's love and memory alive and share stories and laugh because we're just here once. And we talked about it last week on the show with Mary McGreevy. We're here one time, and what we do matters, who we love matters, how we love matters, what we carry matters. Do you want to hold on to that grudge for the rest of your life, or do you want to put it down and just try to let more love in? So that is just the I'm so happy to be able to be here telling these stories with these incredible women. And next week you will meet one of the most dynamic firebirds I think I've ever come across. An absolute true phoenix who has risen from the ashes of losing her husband to colon cancer, leaving her with a teenage son and a completely new life that has been devastated by his loss. What she's learned about her friendship is how we connect it. You know, a lot of people say they're gonna be there, they're gonna show up, they're gonna do all the things. Do they? Danielle found out the hard way, but sometimes they don't. And their grief and how they deal with her grief is not her problem. Because she is now the grief disruptor. She has created a G3 framework. It's grief, grit, glow. You will hear all about that, her perspective on loss, and what friends can do and what they really shouldn't do next week on this episode of the Best Friend Project Podcast with Danielle Young. I cannot wait, wait for you to meet her. I talk to her probably weekly now at this point, and she just answers by singing my name. Right now, right. I mean, this woman, I'm telling you, she's just has lit up my life, and I'm so, so excited for you to meet her next week. So thank you again for listening. Means the world to me.