The Best Friend Project

Ep 16: Grief Alters Your Identity, and Your Friendships | Donielle Young

• Rachel Joy Swardson • Episode 14

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How to be a friend, to yourself and others, when you don't even know who you are anymore. Because grief permanently altered your identity. As Donielle shares it can be really hard to recognized who your friends are anymore. 

"Didn't I lose enough? My husband died, and now my so-called friends are judging the way I grieve?" 

On today’s episode of the Best Friend Project Podcast, we meet Donielle Young, who lost her husband Dwayne to stage four colon cancer at 47, leaving her with a teenage son at home and very little emotional support. In her struggle, she found a space to rebuild herself as The Grief Disruptor, creating The G3 framework (grief, grit, glow up) around the part nobody wants to talk about, how to get to know the new you, when death has changed you. Old you could show up to brunch and be present. New you looks the same on the outside, but you can't sit there and hear normal conversations about husbands traveling or not helping with the dishes after your husband has died. 

Donielle knew some of her friends were judging her, she didn't realize all of them were. She talks candidly about about the day when one of her closest friends admitted she had judged the way Donielle grieved. 

And she names what friends get wrong most, talks about the importance of week three. The casseroles stop but the grief doesn't.

In This Episode 

  • Being judged for how you grieve
  • Losing your identity and creating a new one
  • Auditing your people
  • How friends can fumble supporting each other 

Connect with Donielle Young on Instagram,  Facebook, TikTok, and LinkedIn 

To learn more, visit The Best Friend Project.co . While you're there, discover your Friendship Archetype by taking the  Friendship Survey We'd also love to stay in touch—come say hello on Instagram  and Facebook (we will follow you back!)  If you need to reach us, you can always email us at Hello@TheBFProject.com.


Chapters: 00:00 Cold open

00:52 Welcome to The Best Friend Project

02:05 Meet Donielle Young, The Grief Disruptor

02:20 Who Dwayne was

03:00 A stage four diagnosis in 2020

04:10 How Rachel and Donielle found each other

05:00 Losing your identity, not just your person

07:50 The friend who admitted she judged her

10:00 "It's none of my business who's judging me"

12:40 Why G3 is a framework and not a blueprint

16:40 Were her friends surprised?

19:50 What Dwayne would say to her today

21:20 What to say to a grieving friend

23:20 Show up later, because grief isn't the flu

26:00 Rachel's confession about the text she didn't send

30:40 The relative who disappeared

34:20 Auditing your people, explained

36:00 VIP or general admission

41:20 Historical friends and what the survey found

45:40 Colon cancer, screening, and why women have to lead

53:40 The friends who showed up: Tina, Ruth, and Kenya

55:40 Her son, and what he told the counselor

57:00 Rachel's closing reflection


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#FemaleFriendship #WomensFriendship #GriefPodcast #FriendshipPodcast #IdentityAfterLoss #ColonCancerAwareness #GetScreened

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SPEAKER_00

My very, very good friend getting goosebumps because it's the first time she said out loud to me that she judged me when she first met me.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, it's kind of rocking my world to hear you say that because if if you didn't think she was judging you and she was judging you, imagine just how much the other people that you that were judging are judging you.

SPEAKER_00

You ready for this? It's none of my business. Let's just keep it real. We all judge. I mean, it's just if you have information, you all you we all have a level of judgment. It's what you do with that judgment that matters, you know? The only thing that I am concerned with is how they show up for me.

SPEAKER_02

Look around and you'll see them. Women. Out walking, in restaurants, at the airport, stores, driving in their cars. Women are everywhere. And every time you see a woman, you're seeing someone who has, at some point, struggled with a friendship. Because it's one of the most complicated, meaningful, and rewarding relationships of our lives. But how to do friendship well isn't talked about enough. So let's start. I'm Rachel Swartzen, former private investigator and TV journalist, and now host of the Best Friend Project, where we use original data and real stories to better understand how women find, make, and keep their friends. Thank you for listening. I'm Rachel Swartzen, and you're listening to the Best Friend Project podcast. After losing her husband of 17 years to colon cancer at age 47, my next guest, Danielle, ran the risk of being consumed by her grief. But she couldn't. She had a teenager to raise, a job to do, a life to live, and some way rebuild. So she created a framework called G3, grief written aloa. She now helps others with this beautiful, strong, structured approach that gets deep into the how. How to reclaim identity or audit relationships without apology. Danielle disrupts the idea that grief is the beginning of an end by positioning grief as the beginning of the beginning of identity, of power, of reinvention. She admits it's messy, it's hard, it takes vulnerability, trial and error, a lot of work, and good friendships. Danielle, welcome.

SPEAKER_00

Hi, thank you so much, Rachel. So excited to be here.

SPEAKER_02

So excited to have you on the show. And before we get started talking about friendships and your amazing platform, could you just share a little bit about Dwayne with us?

SPEAKER_00

Oh my God, absolutely. And I'm getting goosebumps because I never really get asked about Dwayne so much. And I love that question. Um, I would say he he was just a ball of fun. And um, anyone that's been around him, he loved music. And he was just he was just a great human being. And he loved life. Actually, on September 11th, 2020, he was diagnosed with stage four colon cancer. And if you remember the hospitals at that time, you couldn't be in the hospital. So he actually found out the first part of it um by himself. And he fought through it and he lived life even with the cancer. And so that's just the kind of guy he was. He died in pain, excruciating pain, but he also died gracefully. And I know that's kind of like a hard thing to say, but he he uh he gave everything that he could and he said, I had a beautiful life. Um, so we were able to get a lot of time with him. But he was very special, and I I appreciate that question and asking about him.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, well, it's I was just when I heard your story, you know, it's heartbreaking just in the spirit of friendship that you lost your partner. You know, he was clearly your your life, your buddy, you know, your person. Um, but also so young. And not you know, nothing that you would have probably expected at your age or been prepared for, not that anyone has, but let's just say we're 80, like it's gonna happen, you know what I mean? Um and I could relate a little bit. When I was 27, I was taking care of my elderly father, and we just weren't doing that at that young age, and it was really isolating for me. So you know, it it really hit me in that way because you shared how isolating it was, and like no one around you uh really understood what it was like to be approaching widowhood, you know, if you will. Um and you know, and I was really uh drawn to your story. Um, you and I connected on Instagram, and for as much as everybody gives social media and stuff, I mean it is a wonderful way to meet incredible people. And I think because the algorithm's also amazing and I do all this friendship stuff, you had commented on a friendship post. I saw your comment, I commented, you know, so we kind of had like a little comment vibe, and then I had DM'd you and then you know, and then we met. And um, you know, one of the things I believe that you had commented on was that in your time of grief, you were also navigating, you know, which we'll talk about uh going forward too, capacity, right? But being judged and being judged by how you were grieving. And that really stood out to me as a woman and a person and a friend. But how you know, do you want to expand at all on what that was like for you to have people sort of assess and decide when a glow-up was really appropriate or not for you?

SPEAKER_00

Perfectly said, like absolutely. So, like, you know, one of the most difficult things is that you don't even know who you are. Your life has literally been stripped from you. And so you go through this weird moment where you're trying to find your lane, you're trying to find out who you are and what your identity is. And then you're also, while you're like kind of crawling your way through, through the grief, through finding out who am I as a single woman, then you have your friendships kind of looking at you and your relationships around you kind of saying, Well, I wouldn't do that, and I would do that. And it's just kind of like this thought of you, you don't have any clue what the magnitude of what it is to hold this grief and this loss like this together, and um and the identity shift. And I think so often, and why you know I call myself the grief disruptor is because when we talk about grief, we talk about the sadness and the deep dark and the despair, and we don't talk about the other side. And the other side is the identity shift. I will never be the Danielle that I was the day that he died. Like the second he took his last breath, I became a completely different person. And by the way, I became 50 different people after that. So, you know, I was constantly like reclaiming my identity. And so when you think about the friendships around you, as I'm just trying to crawl my way through and figure it out, now it's just coming to me now. It's kind of like being a young adult, like in your 20s. Like, I don't know if I want to get married and have kids. I don't know if I want to stay single. I don't know if I want to move to Europe. I don't know if I want to go to college. Like it was it's kind of like that feeling. And then people judging you on different, you know, different ideas or different decisions that you're making and not allowing you to really go through that process because mathematically it doesn't make sense. Like you're grown, you're in your four, you should know.

SPEAKER_02

Well, in your linear, you know, you're not just like, oh, you're better every single day a little bit more. Like you're gonna slide back, you're gonna move forward. And I'm gonna ask you too, were you like, were you actually being judged or did you perceive that you were being judged?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, so I love that you asked that question because my very, very good friend just left here today. And because we were doing this podcast, we were talking about that. And I'm getting goosebumps because it's the first time she said out loud to me that she judged me when she first met me of how I was living. Like if I was dating too soon, and why am I rushing to date or talk about other guys and things like that? And they they actually do judge you, whether you're not sad enough, or where whether you're too sad, whether you're spending too much money, whether you're partying too much, whether you're not showing up enough, whether you're being too reclusive or you're being too out there. Um, people have their own ideas of what it should look like, you know? What did that feel like for you to hear her say that? I was, I was, I knew it, right? I didn't know specifically her, if I'm being fair, because she never treated me that way. She never made me feel that way. So what she said when we talked about it is that she dealt with it on her own and said, like she kind of recognized it for herself and said, I don't know what this is like. And she just she just did a wait and see. That's what she said. And and she also said that she did that because I'm trying to remember, she did that because she was worried about me and she didn't want me to be hurt. And so if I came and told her about a guy I was dating or something I was doing, she didn't want me to be hurt again because she knew the devastation and the hurt that I was already dealing with. So she wanted to protect me.

SPEAKER_02

That's an interesting approach to it. And you know, I just like did you feel like relieved when she kind of owned that? But it's interesting that you just said she wasn't the one that you even thought was judging you. So does that kind of make you well, we talk about audit, right? So one of your things is auditing your social circle. When you're doing your social audit, I mean it's kind of rocking my world to hear you say that because if if you didn't think she was judging you and she was judging you, imagine just how much the other people that you thought were judging you were judging you.

SPEAKER_00

You know what I mean? And you're ready for this?

SPEAKER_02

What? Oh yeah, what?

SPEAKER_00

You're ready for this? It's none of my business. It's none of my business who's judging me. The only thing that I am concerned with is how they show up for me. And like I said, she never showed me that. Maybe she wouldn't talk to her mom or her best friend out of the country or, you know, something because she has some concern or whatever, but she never treated me any different. The people that I have issues with are the people that I'm actually impacted by their judgment. Because let's just keep it real. We all judge. I mean, it's just if you have information, you all you we all have a level of judgment. It's what you do with that judgment that matters, you know? Um, and so she never made me feel any kind of way. Like she never said, Oh, you really want to do that? Or why are you like she never made me feel like that? Other friends have, you know, and those are the people that I audited because they they shifted my energy and didn't allow me to really make my I don't I don't like to say make my mistakes. I like to say learn my lessons. Yeah, because I make mistakes. Live my own life, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Well, and it's it kind of reminds me of something that you had said on social media too. You had a post about um, sorry, not sorry, that I didn't grieve the way you wanted me to.

SPEAKER_00

Mm-hmm. I love that. I love that.

SPEAKER_02

I loved it. I had to write it down.

SPEAKER_00

I was like, I'm writing that one down. Yeah, and I meant it. You know, there there are a lot of people who have a lot of things to say about how you parent after losing someone, how you would spend money, how you would not take a job or do take a job, or just whether you would date and what guy you would date. I I have my a very close relative, we're gonna keep it clean here, a very close relative that would tell me, well, just be careful and make sure you make the right decisions. Like make sure you it's someone really good. I'm like, gee, because if I think about how you've been dating, why is the pressure on me now, and I haven't dated in 20 years, to now make sure if you date that it's it's it's appropriate and it's the right person. No, I can go out and make my mistakes and just like you're doing the same thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Well, and you have to because it's your life. And so there's so much I want to ask you about too within the audit and within the capacity part of what you also talk about, which really brings us back to your G3 um framework. And I have to say, I absolutely love that you call it a framework. I feel like every time I turn on social media, someone else has a blueprint. Like, follow these steps. Like that works if you have a hammer, a nail, and some wood, and you can cut, you know, you can make something. But like life is just like what you can't, you know. So I love the flexibility and the um the grace that framework allows.

SPEAKER_00

I never really like the stages of grief because it is assuming that I'm on a stage and not on another stage, or I stay on this stage, get off the stage, and then get on another stage. I like the idea of waves, right? Because I can be sad and have joy and be angry and have resentment and be all at the same time. And so it isn't kind of a jump on and jump off. And so when I thought about the G3 framework, is I wanted to make something so that you would tap into different areas at any point in time. So it's, you know, and I and I actually have it right here in my hand. When when I built it, it was so that you can go to whatever chapter fits you for at that moment in time, right? It isn't a, you know, you can follow, you know, from cover to cover, but there's gonna be certain things that's hitting you today that won't be hitting you tomorrow. And that's how I wanted to really put it together. But um, it's from grief through the grit to the glow up. And so, what the reason why I built my company and built this platform was because there was no one talking about the how, the messy middle. They, like I said, it was either over-spiritualized, pray about it and you'll be fine, or it was deep dark. And let me tell you how sad you are and why you're sad and anxiety, and it, which all of that is true, by the way. But what about when I have to get up and take my kid to school? What about going to meet friends for brunch and crying because they're talking about their husbands? Like, what, like, what about those things? What about the friendships that you lose? And is this something that I should rekindle or not? What about dating? You know, there's so many other elements to what happens in grief or significant loss that no one was talking about. And then also, how do you progress through that? And so my framework is more about leadership and it's more about taking the power back from grief. And I had someone ask me, you know, do you find that you're in grief more because you talk about it every day? I said, no, absolutely not. I feel like that's my power. Grief is my power because now I stand up authentically, unapologetically, me. And I'm always searching for how I can get and stay in my glow-up phase. And so I get into that grit. So part of my framework is the grief. We got to talk about the grief, right? The sadness and what you feel. Um, I always like to say, and everywhere I am, I like to be very responsible and say, I'm not a counselor, I'm not a therapist, I'm not licensed. You should have those. You should build your support team. Um, I had a bereavement counselor, I had a widow coach, I had a therapist, I had as I had pastors, I had all that support is needed in that in all the phases, really. But then from the grit, there's the grit. There's a getting disciplined, there's getting out and getting messy, there's doing things you don't know how you're gonna show up. I don't know how I'm gonna feel when I go to this wedding. I don't know how I'm gonna feel when I go to this brunch with these married women, and learning how to process that and let it pass through you. And then once you get through the grit, the reward is the glow up. Is now I've had these experiences and now I can actually outline my life, have the non-negotiables, the standards to how I want to live, and kind of build my identity and and really build it to where it's a life worth living after experiencing that significant, or while I'm experiencing that significant loss.

SPEAKER_02

It's so beautiful. And I mean, I don't I don't know how you would do it. And you know, I I can't, it's unimaginable to me. Um, were your friends surprised, do you think? Or were they like, yeah, this is how I would think Danielle would do this? Or like was everyone super supportive and like this makes sense? Or were people like, wait, wait, what is happening right now? Wait, super supportive of what? Which part of your program of G3? Like when you were like, okay, hey, on the platform, yeah. Like, were were people like, okay, this makes complete sense that this is how you would operate? Or were people like, what is she even doing right now? This is like I'm not supportive of this. Like, how did you all of that? I was like, probably, you know. But can you like did what did some people surprise you? Like, did were the people that you thought were gonna be supportive, you know, was there any surprises?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um, so I have my one of my very my dearest friends, Jennifer. She was actually an old boss of mine. So I came from corporate finance. So I worked in corporate finance for over a decade. Before that, I did digital marketing. While he was in chemo, I got licensed with my series six and six three. Like, I'm a crazy woman when it comes to like getting stuff done and like doing things. So for most people, it wasn't a surprise that I would continue on and do something, right? Um, but the public nature of it is a surprise to most people. It's a surprise to me, right? Even my Instagram, my personal Instagram, was not public up until uh a year ago. Like nothing was public at all. And so that part of it was very surprising. Um, but they are not surprised about my personality and showing up and having something to say, because that's always been built in me. And um, that was a spiritual moment that happened when I made that decision because I was doing very well. Even after the loss of my husband, I was doing very well in my work. But I always, even before he was sick, I felt like there was a ceiling I was hitting. And I was like, God, what what what's what am I supposed to do? I was like a big fish in a little pond. And nothing moved me yet. And so I said, Well, if I find something that I'm truly passionate about, then I'll tell, I'll, you know, I'll go forward with it. I didn't know it was gonna be grief. I didn't know I was gonna lose my husband to for it to happen, but I'll say this slowly. The truth of the matter is, I lost my husband and it happened, you know, and that's where the work comes in. The work comes in, it didn't happen to me, it happened for me. And I have to say that slowly because would I pay and give anything to have my husband? I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about it, to have my husband back with me. Absolutely. But I know I would not be her if he was still here, if that makes sense. And I know that's a hard thing to swallow, but um, I wouldn't be moved to be this expansive without that devastation and having to work through it.

SPEAKER_02

Because we don't always get to choose the message or whether we're the messenger. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think he would say to you today?

SPEAKER_00

I did have this question before, and I don't know about your listeners or you or how spiritual anyone is, but I did have this question before, and he came through me, and it was the most bizarre thing. I answered it like that, and I was like, oh my God, that was not me. But he came in and he said, I told you. And now, even saying it now, I'm getting goosebumps. He always saw something bigger in me, always. And I got promoted several times in like a short amount of time, and he's like, I knew it, of course. And so he would just be so, so proud, you know? He would be like, Okay, that's a little much. Because I always overdo everything. But he would not be surprised, and he would be like, I told you. That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_02

Um, and I'm I've never met him, but I am 100% positive that uh who wouldn't be proud of you? Yeah. Um so as you look at your friends, are there lessons that you know you could share with our audience, you know, in friendship, in loss, for example, like what shouldn't people say? You know, what did it help you to hear? Um, and people talk about showing up and that means different things to different people. But you know, is it physically like knocking your door down and opening it up? I mean, what like what was the most impactful from your friendship circle things that you can share that helped you?

SPEAKER_00

First, I'll give you the message that I want for every friend out there that has another friend that's going through, not just uh Grief or loss, but something significant. Give them grace. Stop expecting them to be perfect while they're going through hard things in life. And I think that's something that happened to me from a lot of friends is that they expected me to be one way or the other, and I didn't. And uh the judgment came in, you know, and it came from family as well. And so give the person grace. Also, um come back, you know. If if I know there's some people that are grieving, that are mean, that are not, that have are irritated, that don't have a lot of space, a lot of emotional capacity. Um, and maybe they're they're very short with you, they're just out of character, whatever it may be, and you don't have the capacity for it. And that's okay. But come back. Give them a couple weeks, three weeks, don't just completely disappear out of their life. Um and, you know, in friendships, show up and you said it. The one thing not to ask is what do you need? Because if there, if anyone out there is like me, I'm not, first of all, I'm not gonna tell you what I need. I don't even know what I need. You know, if I were to ask any random person, what would you need if X had like I don't know. But yeah, just I don't care that you sent me a tuna casserole and I don't eat tuna. It's the thought. It really warms my heart that you thought enough to bring food to my door and say, listen, I don't want to bother you, but I left a casserole on the chair on the chair. And the last thing that I want to say about that is show up later. Having grief and being in despair and having something significant happen to you is not like having the flu. It's not a three-day and you're over it. Okay. I'm three years going on four years in. And there are times it feels like it's the first year, right? But I think people now forget, especially if I'm like showing up like this, that I'm still grieving. I'm still dealing with loss in my heart. I would love for someone to just randomly send me flowers or send me a card or say, hey, I'm in Orlando. Can I drive to you and just take you out for coffee or lunch or something? Um, I'm a solo mom now, you know, and so my son is 17 years old. He's gonna be a senior in high school next year. And there's a lot of things that I did not want to do. I do not want to teach him how to drive, okay? That is a nauseating experience for mom. Because he doesn't want to, he doesn't want anyone to tell him what to do. He's six foot four and 180 pounds. He's my man child, you know? It's and I always say, thank you, Dwayne. You left me here with your kid. Like, this is great. But when it comes to friendships, um, show up and do something. You know your friend, be thoughtful. By the way, you have AI, you have Chat GPT, like ask him, my friend is this and that, and this, what can I do for her to make her feel special today?

SPEAKER_02

Interesting. So it sounds like there's no wrong thing other than nothing. And then let me ask you too, because I I um not bringing it all back to me, but I uh recognized, you know, in in this whole audit that I'm doing following my friendship breakup and losing her, and then just trying to uh relearn friendship tools that I guess I don't have, it seems. Like, I don't know, I'm figuring it all out. Um, but one thing I have noticed is that uh when someone around me is sick, like for example, I had a former coworker was diagnosed with breast cancer. And I uh saw it on, you know, or somebody that we had worked with sent me a text, and then I saw that she made an announcement on Facebook and I wanted to text her. I didn't want to do it on Facebook because I know her well enough to, you know, just be real with her. And then I I did the worst thing ever. I waited, and then I was like, what should I say? And then I'm like, is this gonna sound you know, and then it was just a couple of uh days, it might have been a week by the time I did say something, but I felt just gross at that point, you know? So how like do you need people to say sorry if too much time has gone by? Acknowledge that, or are you like not even thinking about time in the same way because you're in the thick of everything? Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00

Can I just validate you for a second? So I'm in this grief space. This is what I talk about every day, all day long. I've had the most, they say the most devastating traumatic loss, right? I some would call me a grief expert in the transition of grief. And I get rattled when I find out hard news about a friend of mine, you know, a friend that lost someone. Um, a friend of mine just what's today? Today's a 12. So two days ago, I lost her grandmother. And I met her grandmother, and even though she's 92 years old, I know she was very close with her grandmother. And I'm getting goosebumps just talking about this. So when she sent the text and let me know, it took me a while to respond. What's a while? Because because, well, I did respond that day. I had to respond. I didn't respond right away. But I'm gonna address that. I'm gonna address that. But I just wanted to validate you for a moment that even when you're in it, even when you've been there, it's a hard thing because there is no right thing to say. The the you know, there's a lot of wrong things to say, not they're in a better place, not that at least they're not in pain, not just don't say that. But you know what I said to her? I said, oh my God, that totally sucks. That really sucks. And she said, grief, this grief thing, I was like, I know, that's it. I know, and I'm so sorry. You know, we go in to come with a response to to to to fix it so that we can feel better, right? And all it does is devalidate the enormity of what they're going through. And so for your friend that found out that they had breast cancer, you had to take a while to kind of like, oof, and that's okay. But when you come back, just say, I've been thinking about you, I just didn't know what to say, I'm so sorry. Yeah, you know, and that's it. And I think if we be a little bit more honest, I think it would land more with the griever. Um, be honest and have grace. But you know, to just shy away, which I'm proud of. You said you did finally reach out, right? Yeah. Some, some, once it reached a certain like three or four, oh my God, now I can't say anything at all because I waited, right? Three or four days. Yeah. Um, and that's the worst because then we're sitting here on this island and we know, by the way, we know the one person that didn't reach out. Oh God, really? Sorry. But, you know, and then you have to kind of take inventory to she probably knows you, right? And she probably knows, oh my God, you know, I'm sure Rachel's like, I don't know what to say, you know, or whatever.

SPEAKER_02

So for the one that you remember who didn't, like, is this like a like let's say you run into each other in the grocery store? Because what I have found is when you don't say whatever it is, then the avoidance comes in, and then you really don't say it because you avoid each other, and then every like all the meta meta perceptions come into like, oh, she's a you know, we can't figure our own thoughts out, let alone figure out what someone else is thinking. But it's really easy for us to think, oh no, I know exactly what she's thinking, right? So in your case, was it somebody that you were shocked by, or were you like this is fitting?

SPEAKER_00

No, I was completely shocked. So it is a close relative, that's what we'll say, to keep it, you know. And um, Dwayne would not be happy that this person completely disappeared from our lives. Completely, almost right away. Um, a few months after he passed away, you know, he came, they came to the funeral, and then not a word. Their wife calls um to check in every couple months or whatever, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So I just have to ask too, though, because like you're in your grief, but other people are in their grief. Do you think this person is in their grief and they just can't reach across? Or yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I know that that was a hard hit for them for sure. So that helps me to not hate them, you know, or whatever, because then I'm preaching to give a space and then, you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_02

Well, and like a hierarchy, like who gets to grieve the most and be the, you know, for sure wife gets to be like, okay, it's hard on you. But like I went to the and it's also too because you know, I think that we talked about this before as well, but you end up having to comfort people in their grief because they're coming to you with their grief and they're grieving for you and for him, you know. So, I mean, so much lands on the person at the center of it all, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so that's that's where I talk in a big way about people that want to judge our lives. You know, um, there uh from another widow sis of mine went to an event like a week after her husband. What's that? What did you call her? I called her widow sis.

SPEAKER_02

A widow sis, okay.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. Her husband um battled with cancer for a while. And so a week after, you know, I say that to say that, you know, you know they're dying. It's not like something tragic, right? And so a week after she had an event that she went to and they judged her to the hills that she went to this event after burying her husband a week and a half before that. And the whole thing about friendship is that I'm juggling so many things and people around me, parents of the deceased, you know, his my in-laws, you know, his other children. Like there's so many things that are happening. You better damn well believe I'm going to somebody's party or event because I need to get away from it all, you know. And that's what people don't think about is everything that you're managing all the time. Oh, yeah, just like the ripple effect of it.

SPEAKER_02

Well, like your son and then your son's friends.

SPEAKER_00

And my son's friends who saw him on the baseball field, the coaches who are used to seeing my like it's a lot. And so, but keep in mind, picture this. I'm the widow, I'm still going to the baseball games, so I'm still having to um navigate those relationships. Whether I'm getting the, oh, how are you today? Or I'm getting the one that comes to me to try to like act like nothing happened to you know lift my spirits, you know. Or I have the ones that don't come to me at all because they can't handle the magnitude of what this means. And it's a true story. I saw that on a TED talk or something somewhere that people don't want the grief stain on them.

unknown

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But wait so they stay away. So was a lot of grace.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Because you just said they have grief and you didn't say, like, oh, they're not, you know, whatever. That you just gave them so much grace to be there. Yeah. That's what they need to do. Yeah. Have you had some like new friendships pop up? I mean, you just mentioned widows this. Like, have you met friends through this that I can oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00

So this goes back to the audit, your people, right? And so it's kind of figuring out, and that's it's more towards the glow-up phase because it's after you've gone through the messy middle and fought with the friends and judged whether I'm doing something wrong, whether they're doing whether they should have done something different, whether I should. It's it's a whole messy middle, it's a whole process that you have to go through. But then you get this opportunity to now find your troops and find your people.

SPEAKER_02

Because what I think what I hear you saying is that you're looking for deeper connections than you had previously.

SPEAKER_00

No, those connections could have been deep, but it could not it, those connections could be connections that do not suit me where I am right now.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, I'm I'm so fascinated by this, but also completely confused and hypersensitive because of my situation. So you're saying that even if someone's done nothing wrong and they're lovely and you have a deep relationship with them, they're going to get audited.

SPEAKER_00

Audited? That doesn't mean removed from my life. So I so the best way I could put it, like in dating.

SPEAKER_02

Wait, by the way, you have such a finance background that you probably think of the word audit differently than I do. Like, you know, talking to you like a financial genius. Of course, she's gonna understand completely what audit means. Can you break it down for somebody that has no math skills whatsoever? Sure. My dad also, my dad told me that cute girls aren't good at math.

SPEAKER_03

So I'm probably really good at math.

SPEAKER_02

I was like, wait, I'm dumb. I was like, I don't understand what you're saying. So can you just in layman's terms, when you say audit, because to me, I hear edit out you go.

SPEAKER_00

So can you just oh my god, no, absolutely not. Audit means taking taking review. If you were to audit your finances, you're taking review. And if you realize you're spending $500 a month on Starbucks, then you know you need to cut down on Starbucks. You're not taking Starbucks completely out. You're just saying, oh my God, I need so often we're moving so fast and shaking and moving and doing things, we don't realize how many cups of coffee we're buying at Starbucks. So I'm moving and shaking so fast, I don't realize that this friendship really isn't supporting me, really isn't giving me what I need. They're a great person, they're fun to hang around, they're they're, you know, whatever, but like they're not really helping me to get to where I go. And by the way, actually, when I'm done with my engagement with them, I feel a little drained, right? And I just can't have that right. I don't have the capacity to be drained at all. Not that they're doing anything wrong.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Not that they're doing anything wrong at all. And so when you're auditing your people, you're just auditing the people around you. And sometimes you have to move them from category. Sometimes sometimes I have to move them from the VIP section and put them in general admission because they're not VIP right now.

SPEAKER_02

You know, that's the audit that you have to kind of look at and blow it up and tell them, you know, bye. You just maybe you see them at the holiday party once a year, and then you just leave it at that, and it's like, oh my god, I love your outfit. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00

And you have agency over your capacity and who you are and where you're trying to go. And so if you're being really honest, and you're gonna make mistakes, you're gonna do the wrong audit, you're gonna wipe out the wrong thing, you're gonna, you know, and then you have to come back and reassess and be like, you know what? Actually, I really did enjoy that person being a part of my life. But I I I frame it to dating. It's like, I'm so sick of these women saying, but he was a good guy. Okay, but if he's not, if you're not attracted to him, if he doesn't have the same goals and values, and if he's not, you know, giving you what you need to feel fulfilled, whether he's a great guy or not, he's just not the right puzzle piece for your puzzle. Like, you know, you gotta find the right person for you.

SPEAKER_02

Fascinating way to layer it. Because like when my breakup happened, I was thinking if this was a romantic breakup, I would circle up with my girlfriends, I would heal my wounds, I would go, you know, do my different form of grief, you know, I'd do my grieving breakup, I would do my glow-up, and then I would just go on a different day. I would find somebody else today until I found somebody that was really interesting. In a friendship, a breakup, you can't really do that because you really can't talk about it with your girlfriends because then you're talking about people and that's taboo. And there is no like app where you could just go, I guess there's a humble friend, but you know, where you could just go on a friendly. Yeah, exactly. You know, where you could just find another friend, and but you know, the way that you're saying it though is like you would apply that to a guy. Like I I loved how you framed it. Like I always a good guy, but not for me. I don't have to be friends with everyone I meet. Everyone doesn't have to be friends with me, and that's okay. It doesn't mean I have to be a jerk to them, but it can just sort of fall to the wayside into your Starbucks analogy. I'm not just gonna keep putting energy slash money, which I mean time, but obviously way more valuable than money, into even if it's just texting or things like that, whether you're physically spending time with someone or not, oh, this is really making me think.

SPEAKER_00

And by the way, by the way, it can change in the process. You know what I mean? Like you could change your mind in the process. You can make the decision, do the audit, make the decision. I don't, I'm gonna cut down on Starbucks, and then you can kind of revisit that next month and realize, oh, I only spent like $200, but then I'm drinking coffee at home, I'm not leaving the house, I'm not getting sunlight, I'm not engaging with people, I'm not connecting with people because now I'm staying in the house. Like, you know what I mean? So I'm like, you know what? Actually, that that extra whatever is worth it. So, like, you're shifting and making decisions to kind of figure out where that sit in now. Will that friend now welcome you back when you decide to kind of crawl back? Now that's a whole nother dynamic that you have to deal with. That's where the honesty comes in. That's when the bravery and the vulnerability comes in and say, hey, look, I kind of didn't value, I didn't feel the value of our relationship at that time. But now, you know, and sometimes it doesn't have to be said, by the way. I have a friend that we kind of separated, and something happened and we got back together, we never talk about it. We never talked about like that, we distance ourselves.

SPEAKER_02

But it's and we just an elephant in the room. You just don't even feel the need to talk about it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's just yeah, not at all. And we're just we're really great friends now. And as the the way that I look at it, we're great friends until you know it doesn't serve me anymore. And I think that that's okay. We're walking around using this. I've been friends with her since high school and middle school, and that's great, honestly. That should be rare. Think about it. The way that you have evolved and changed as a person and as a human, um, your friendships change as well, and and what you need changes. And so it's great to say I've had a friend since middle school, um, but also I'd like to say that I have healthy relationships that serve me too in the same tongue, and I don't want to keep someone around just for the number.

SPEAKER_02

Well, and it's funny you should say that about the high school friends because um in the best friend project survey, one of the things that has been a recurring theme is people that have those uh historical friends, but they don't really like that person anymore. And if they met today, they wouldn't be friends, but they've known them for 20 years or 30 years, or you know, and they're like they're family, they're dragging me down, and you know, and they just feel achy about it. And when you feel bad about something, it's you can't compartmentalize that, it just you feel bad, you know. Um, so that that's interesting that you know you brought that up as well.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and when you say something really quick about that, sorry. You know what gave me that was grief. I'm so fragile that I don't even have the space to entertain something that is not fulfilling me. Like it's not even my choice. You know, if I forced something with someone that is not good for me, that I don't feel good in my body, that is disrupting my nervous system, everybody gets it. I can't work, I'm not, I'm not doing, I'm not going to the gym, I'm not working out, I'm not taking good care of my son, I'm not present with my son. Like, you know what I mean? It is a is a it is a night and day uh uh repercussion of that relationship. So I don't have the luxury of keeping them around anyway, because it impacts me so much more because of my grief. And that's why I say my grief is my power. You know, I get to filter out all this bullshit that everyone else is kind of trailing along because they they're not as fragile as I am. And now I'm like, I'm very, very intentional. And so one of my messages is like even if you haven't lost a spouse, you can audit your people and be very intentional. And it sounds selfish and it sounds snooty, and oh, you think you're all that. Yes, I do, and I am because I'm important. Because no one's gonna care more about me than me. I have to sleep with me every night. Yes, I am all of that.

SPEAKER_02

I I love that. And I used to think that when I was a medical journalist and I would, you know, interview people that had been diagnosed with these terrible diseases, and they would always say, Oh, it's such a blessing because you know, because of this disease, I now, you know, value that I and I would just think like, why should it take a horrible diagnosis to live your best life? But the thing is, like, we're all surrounded by so much information and so many experts that unless it's relevant to our lives, like I can't possibly be on guard for every possible thing that could possibly happen. And then when it happens, I'm like, why didn't anybody tell me? And someone might be hearing this conversation and be like, oof, that's you know, I'm so sorry that happened to her, but it's not happening to me until it does, or somebody that they know.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So just like the grief was a ripple effect, I think so too is the lessons and the healing and the grace, you know, that we're learning from you.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. No, thank you so much for that. Everyone experiences some form of grief, right? Um, you've had a breakup, you've lost a job, you've, you know, you've gotten divorced. This, you know, it's it's universal in that way. Um, for my widow community, it's very different when you lose a spouse. Let's just be clear. I've already done a platform about divorce A versus widowhood because they like to say it's like I'm a widow and it's like my husband died. No, it's not. Let's not compare. They're both paying. We're not doing the the see who has the power pain, you know, the power. But there is a universal language in feeling the hurt, going through the messy middle, figuring life out, and having to navigate and pivot as you're going through that. And you're right, we're being pulled in a hundred different directions and fed so much stuff. And if you allow yourself to be, I just did one about allowing yourself to be consumed, you would think that we are the earth is blowing up tomorrow. Like there's no reason for living. And I refuse to succumb to that because I know that there's a beauty in this world.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I'm so so glad that that's there. Um and also because of how Dwayne died and the cancer that he had, and that colon cancer is the number one, I do believe, and it just reached number one. Um the killer, especially of black men, um, younger black men. Um, I think that the like healthcare, you know, it's like you can start getting your scan, your colonoscopy at like, I think the recommendation is 47 or 48. 45 now. I think they lowered it. Well, and it still needs to be lower, I would think. I mean, just based on what we're seeing. Um, and what I mean, just really quickly, if if you were able to share any symptoms, any early things, so just kind of in the vein of I wish I had known, right? Or I wish somebody had told me. Um, I don't know how many young black men are gonna be listening to a podcast about friendship, but we all know someone who knows someone, who knows someone. This is so important to get out to.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. This is so important because we are the ones, actually. So actually, this is perfect for your platform and your audience because the sisters, the mothers, the wives, the cousins, the aunties, um, the best friends, like the women are the ones that are gonna say, come here, we're gonna go to lunch, and you're gonna have this cola. No, we're gonna go get into the columnosphy, and then we're gonna have lunch or whichever way. But you need to take them by the hand and say, Listen, you are of age, it is time. By the way, I wanna tell everyone on here, it is the best sleep ever, okay? Like when I think, and I've said this before, when I think about Michael Jackson, and if I'm somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that he had this whole thing about profit all, whatever, is the thing that they give you, like anesthesia. And that's what he had, like a chamber in his house, and he got overdosed, and that's how he died. I think. But guess what? If that's the case, I get it. Because it is the best you're out like that, you have the best sleep ever, you don't even know what happened to you. Usually people complain about the preparation before. I consider it a good cleanse. I you probably needed that cleanse to begin with, number one. And it's a good sleep, right? But we as women have to rally together, make the appointments for them, make it a day out of it, tell them if you do this, we'll go to golf, we'll go to golf in the morning and do a colonoscopy in the afternoon, like whatever it is that you need to do. Oftentimes, the reason that people do not go and get tested is because they're afraid of the results. And I'm gonna tell everyone here that you better damn well be afraid of being diagnosed with stage four colon cancer that you could have caught two years prior because you went and got checked and got it taken care of. And instead, you are in excruciating pain. My husband died in excruciating pain. He was, it wasn't a it was a graceful death when I say that at the end, when he was like completely drugged up and kind of spent his last days in a very comfortable space. But leading up to that, he was in the fetal position, rocking because they could not give him pain medicine strong enough to take care of the pain that he was having. So when you think about not going to get checked, you think about well, if I could have gone and they find a couple of polyps and they can take care of those few polyps, versus not going and knowing that those polyps will turn into cancers, and now I have to deal with an illness. And my husband did say, like, in his illness, he was ready to die because the pain was so bad. He's like, my soul, and then I had put this on his on his obituary. My soul is willing, but my body is weak. I'm ready to go now. Like he he's like, you know, and so when you think about I don't want to get the results, think about what would happen if you don't. And um, one of the things I always sit with, by the way, um, when my husband passed away, he passed away in October. In April of that following year, I had an abnormal breast mammogram. Because my sister, my sister was diagnosed with breast cancer while he was dying. By the way, she was diagnosed with stage two breast cancer. She didn't tell me because he was dying, he was in hospice. And um I went and got my mammogram that next year. So picture me, my husband just died, and I said the only thing I can do is preventative care. This is the only thing I can't stop the cancer. I can't that, you know, no one knows what the cure is. I can do preventative care. I went to the doctor and it was abnormal. So now I'm laying on the hospital, not hospital, but procedure bed, getting a needle biopsy. And I did that twice, two years in a row, right after my husband passed. But guess what? I have a son, and if I could go and get checked first to have preventative care versus coming to my son and saying, I didn't get checked, and so this is where we are. It's not fair to him. And so I, for colon cancer awareness month, I implore everyone to get that good cleanse, to get that good sleep, go in there and get your check really quick and be done with it. Because I think it's like five years or eight years, you know, you can do after.

SPEAKER_02

Um if it's clean, you know, if you don't have any. Yeah, if it's clean if you don't have anything else. Yeah, sure. You know, while the colonoscopy is obviously the gold standard in checking, and this is not commercial for Colagaard, but there, you know, we have made, although not a huge amount of progress in prevention, not a human and in treatment, earlier diagnosis, uh diagnostic tools via even at home. You know, so for people that are like, I'm not gonna go through the colonoscopy, you can have that test at home to at least give uh any indication of some abnormalities that would like make you go like, okay, now I better go have you know the colonoscopy. And when I think about what you're saying too, my husband is 62 and he has you know, I can name at least four friends who were like, I'm not getting screened for prostate cancer, nobody's gonna stick a thumb up my ass. And four of them are now in diabers because they got treated for prostate cancer, it was too advanced, you know, and it was it's a more complicated surgery when it's advanced, things can get snipped that shouldn't, and you know, they can't hold their their urine anymore. Yeah, and it's like okay, so that whole thumb up your ass thing. I bet you'd take a thumb up your ass right now, wouldn't you? I mean, so you're you're literally like, oh, okay, that this is a way better alternative than a, you know, I mean, one second of like, ooh, okay, that was weird, you know. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00

One of my greatest fears is, you know, when it comes to grief and and widowhood, you always think about dying. Like it's just it's just this thing that sits on your shoulder all the time. And one of my greatest fears is not dying, it's it's it's getting sick and and and having to live with an illness. That was my husband's, he did not want to be a burden on us. He did not want to be a burden on us, and that's what you have to think about when you're thinking about this preventative care. It's like, geez, dying is the easy part. If you think about it, get your preventative care because we can only do what we can do. Nobody knows where the hell it's coming from.

SPEAKER_02

Like, right, for sure.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

All right. So before I let you go, is there are there any last things you would want to share about friendship or anybody you want to give a shout out to that has like shown up for you in the best possible way that you weren't expecting?

SPEAKER_00

Oh my gosh, absolutely. But I would like be crazy to say because if I leave someone else, it's kind of like I'm on stage getting my Oscar or my Grammy. Like, I can't name everyone because if I leave anyone out. But I I'm gonna preface this by saying I'm gonna mention some names only because they're at the forefront right this second, but does not mean that anyone else isn't just as important. But my widow sis Tina, we are the ride or die. She, you know, you have that friend that you can say anything to. I mean, knows where the bodies are buried, anything to. Um, and I love her to pieces. Um, and we understand each other. Um, Ruth is a very, very good friend of mine. She's a she's a new friend that I became friends with her after I came into widowhood. And she's just been such a delight in understanding what it's like to be a true friend and showing up. Um, my girl Kenya, um, you have asked me, was there anyone that surprised you? And there were people that I thought was gonna be my rider down. I thought when my husband died, oh my God, this person's gonna be at my house every day, cooking dinner, washing dishes, doing the whole thing for me, and they disappeared. Um, there was another friend that showed up briefly, like after he passed, and then never spoke to me again. We do not, I don't know why, nothing happened, you know. And then um there's Kenya, who I didn't, I didn't think she would disappear, but the way that she shows up, she's at every event, she's bigging me up, she's like, I'm so proud of you. She takes me out, and she doesn't hear from me long enough. She's like, I'm not the dry cleaners on the corner. I need to lay eyes on you. I'm gonna stop by and lay eyes on you. Yeah, she's that kind of friend. So um, just out of top of mind, and then my wonderful, wonderful son. Um you know, he has this incredible thought about life. And when his bereavement counselor asked him, he said, he said he's happy and sad. And um, she said, Well, what are you sad about? He said, That my dad's no longer here. And then she said, Well, what are you happy about? He said that I had the 14 years with him. He's that kind of kid, and he's my friend, you know, because he sees it all. And he shows up. He's still a teenager, let's not be, you know. But he I can see him making efforts to show up for me and play the RB music to kind of ease, like he shows up, he doesn't let me show him on social media, whatever. But um, but I have to say, like, I have to mention him and how he's shown up for me and just kind of been we've been there for each other, and and I I I'm a better mom and a better woman because of him, truly because of him.

SPEAKER_02

So yeah. Well, I'm better for knowing you, and I know so much of our audience is going to feel the same way. So thank you for being here. And for anyone who hasn't yet taken the best friend project survey, you can find it at the best friendproject.co. And um, there's also a link if you want to join us on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01

I find myself wondering if this is Danielle now, this firebird, vulnerable, honest, raw, real, and amidst all of that joyful, giggling, laughing, listening, being present.

SPEAKER_02

What was she like before? You know, because I can't imagine a more vibrant, beautiful person. Um, but she did say grief changed her. And maybe it made her brighter in this way, that she's more open with a bigger light to shine as she takes on a very difficult uh chapter of her life and opens the book to all of us. I have loved getting to know her and in fact have formed, I would say, a friendship with her. I probably talk to her at least twice a week, whether it's on the phone or by text. And whenever I call her, I love putting it on speaker phone, whether it's in my car or in my office, because when she answers, she doesn't say hello, she doesn't say anything else but Rachel! And she says my name, and she's like, girl, it's so good to hear from you. How are you? You're killing it, and it's just, it's it's like I have a friend, you know. In the midst of exploring friendship, I've made a friend. And um, she and I really stepped into these journeys um, similar but different, but at the same time, she now has a podcast of her own called The Grief Disruptor with Danielle Young, and you can get it wherever you get your podcasts.

SPEAKER_01

And it is just her unfiltered talking about grief. And I want to say, even if, and I hope you haven't lost anyone close to you, this is still a relevant podcast to you. Because from the place of a widow, she shares what helped, what didn't help, what not to do, what to do. And again, it's her unique personal story, not saying that everyone will want what she wanted or not want what she didn't have.

SPEAKER_02

But I think it is so eye-opening for all of us because whether we've not lost someone yet, we for sure know someone that has. And um, Danielle shows us another way of showing up for people amidst her generous, generous grief.

SPEAKER_01

So um so glad that you were able to meet her vicariously through this episode. Thank you for listening. Next week, I don't have a guest. Uh, next week will be my first solo podcast, and I'm choosing to do that because I would love to share with you all some insights to the data that I've been collecting by putting up signs in bathroom stalls across the country. I'd like to share some of the insights and address the question I continuously get, which is have I heard from my now former best friend yet? So it's finally time for me to talk about that. And I hope you'll join me next week on the Best Friend Project podcast. Thank you for listening.