What Does Love Demand Of You Today: Mortality and Compassion in Leadership - Dr. Seth David Clark

Most of us make plans like we’re exempt from the clock, then we’re shocked when stress, fear, and identity-driven leadership show up in our decisions. We sit down with Reverend Dr. Seth David Clark, a leadership scholar, executive coach, and hospice chaplain whose work spans boardrooms, bedside moments, and years of ministry on the US Mexico border. He brings a rare mix of compassion and realism to the question leaders avoid: what changes when you truly remember you will die?

We unpack why every public narrative is still only a narrative, and how leaders can hold a complex reality without hardening their hearts or ignoring legitimate concerns. Seth shares what he learned serving separated families, advocating for humane connection, and trying to reopen Friendship Park so families could meet in a legal, dignified way. That frontline experience leads to a guiding leadership practice he returns to again and again: asking what love requires right now, not as a warm feeling but as fidelity, responsibility, and ethical action.

Then we go deeper into mortality awareness and leadership development: the “immortality projects” we build through titles and achievement, the courage it takes to loosen a white-knuckle grip, and the need to create successors so organizations don’t collapse when one charismatic leader exits. We also talk about the nervous system side of values based leadership, why our bodies lag behind our beliefs, and what end-of-life regrets can teach us about overwork, forgiveness, reconciliation, and legacy.

If you care about ethical decision making, resilient leadership, and living your values before life forces the lesson, listen through to the end and share this with someone who’s carrying too much. Subscribe, leave a review, and tell us what you’re ready to release so you can lead with more love and less fear.

Transcript

Welcome And Origin Story

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Welcome back to one-on-one with Mr. U. Of course. I am your host, Mr. U in studio with us, leadership scholar, executive coach, hospice chaplain, the Reverend Dr. Steph David Clarkson House. Reverend Clark, how are you today? Good to see you, man.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

I'm doing all right. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Fantastic, fantastic. Good to have you here with us. We had a great conversation in our preliminaries, and I want to get into more because we talk about some similar things uh in our spheres of influence, but I want to kind of get a uh a quick picture of your childhood, your background, kind of what shaped who you are today, as brief as you can make that, and then we get into the rest of our shows. So, what's the key factor that got you from your childhood to where you are today, you think?

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Yeah, I think a lot of that has to do with my uh my faith, you know, um, knowing that there's there's something bigger out there, right? And I'm a Christian, so my Christian faith. And um, you know, I think that that did a lot for me in terms of of helping me see the world as a place where there's some good, but also some not so good stuff going on. And um I have a family who loves me and and that helps a lot, right? And and now I have a wife who loves me, that helps a lot too. So um I think those relationships, yes, those relationships um with the divine, those relationships with uh the people closest to us, and then of course friends along the way. I think that that's a big, big uh blessing. So I grew up in Minnesota, I'm living in California now. So I think also just uh, and this is the fifth state I've lived in, right? So I think moving around helps you figure out who you are, right? Because you're you're stripped from the context that you grew up in, and then you you kind of have to figure out who am I now? You know, I'm I'm not just that person I was.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Yeah, I love that. I love that. I moved around a good bit too, not so much in the country, more along the coast. Yeah, if you can pinpoint it, what do you think is the biggest change you've personally experienced about yourself in being in these different environments?

Border Ministry And Hospice Reality

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Oh, sure, yeah. Oh, that's a good question. I I think the the environment that changed me the most was uh doing ministry uh and some work on on the border. So I worked on the US Mexico border in different ways for eight years, right? So right there, um dealing with separated families, trying to um trying to advocate for them, trying to, you know, come to come to terms with border patrol. And then there was the asylum crisis, right? So asylum seekers, so that whole thing, trying to uh show them God's love and in the middle of a tough spot, and you know, even just offering a cup of cup of noodles, right? Um, everything like that. You see you see a lot, you hear a lot, a lot of bad, a lot of good. Um, right there. I think that was that was very impactful for me. And then maybe the second one is working in as a hospice chaplain, right? So, like literally life and death stuff, and trying to come alongside people, not tell them what to do or how to be, but just listen and and offer resources as available. Yeah, for sure. Those two, I think, are the top that's good, man.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

It's good. I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you this because you're uh essentially standing on the front lines, and I know that people in our world they look at things in print, television, radio, what have you, podcasts, and they take their cues from that. Oh, yeah, but you're actually out there on the front line, you see things. Tell us, I guess, in in a way, Dr. Clark, serve as a myth buster for us. Oh, sure, yeah. What we don't realize based on what's being reported. Tell tell us almost behind the scenes what are you seeing that's not reported? What's actually happening that may be contrary to what we actually hear about?

Beyond Headlines And Toward Love

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Go ahead. Sure. Um, yeah. So I I uh I'll tell you from my experience, I've stepped away from like the direct front lines in terms of the border and and actually taking a bit of a break from the hospice chapensity as well. But uh it doesn't mean I I'm not in rooms with dying people. Um, I was in the room with someone who's dying just a few days ago and and he passed shortly after that, right? So um, so it's still still working trying to be by trying to be there. But um I think the the thing is every narrative you hear is is a narrative, right? And so just like every story, it's um it's not the whole truth, it's a summary, you know? And so everyone has their own perspective, right? And I think that that you put on these different glasses and it shows uh different parts of the world. And so, you know, I have my own perspective, which is um that that the people coming into the US, um, a lot of them just just trying to live, you know, and a lot of them also escaping violence, you know. I I know some people who who uh didn't make it, you know, they're dead now. Um no fault their own, really. And uh, but there's also you know, there's also bad. So those security concerns that that the government has, like those are real, like people, bad people come in, you know, like we saw what happened in 9-11. Um, they came in through a different border, right? Canada mostly, but um, but they there are security concerns too. And so, so sometimes if we view everything through one lens or another, um, you know, that that clouds kind of our thinking. And so, so trying to hold uh hold it all um and say, you know what, there's there is this really complex reality. What do we want to do with that? And so for me, my role um uh primarily was was twofold. One was to do the ministry there, to have a church service every Sunday right there at the border, and so just to offer God's love and say, like, hey, in Christ, um, under God's love, like there, there is no border like that, like in the spiritual realm, you know, all are invited in. And then uh I had another role, which was to try to help reopen this place called Friendship Park, which was this beautiful spot right there where Mexico and the US and the Pacific Ocean meet, and for years and years, people go there and meet family. A lot of people are in the US and they um they have perfectly status, they just can't leave and come back, and then their family can't uh come over or whatever. So, like this was one of the only spots in the entire US border, um, and at some points the only spot. Uh, and I was trying to help get that reopened. And there's still uh organization doing that's called Friends of International Friendship Park to try and get that spot reopened so that these separated families can meet, you know, perfectly legal way. Um, but yeah, that's that's tough work, you know. Um but I think for me, the perspective I always try to have was like, what is what does love demand of us in this this tough spot? And I think, you know, and in that's really, I think, kind of hopefully the through line in all my work is it if doing hospice, someone's dying, families are pre-grieving or grieving, you know, what does love require of me right now? Uh in executive coaching, right? Which you know, what people have these goals and they they want to have really good uh outcomes in terms of their business, in terms of their vocation. All right, what does love require of me right now? And sometimes that's listening, sometimes that's speaking a little bit of a contrarian truth, um, whatever it is, right? It's um what does love require of me right now? And try to live into that.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

No, I love this, I love this. Uh you and I had a part of our discussion was about leadership. And unfortunately, anytime I talk to somebody, I can't help but talk about leadership, it comes out of me like air. So I can't help but do that. But I love to hear why you believe remembering your mortality makes you a better leader. If you believe that's that is true. If you believe that, why do you believe that? Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Yeah, uh, there's a few ways it could start, but let me start this way. I think that uh reality uh is a healthy dose of medicine, and sometimes we don't like reality, but the reality is like you and I, we only have a certain number of days on this earth, we don't know what that number is, but uh we're not living forever in these uh mortal bodies of ours, right? And so sometimes we have these projects, these immortality projects, right? And we try to set up um a life that basically acts like uh we're acting like we're gonna leave forever, but we're not. And so, so what do we actually want out of this one life that we have here on earth? What do we want to achieve, right? Because these people getting executive coaching, right? They're achievers, right? By by their very nature. What do we want to achieve? But also what are our values, right? Um, and my values, your values, right, right? Hopefully they're all good things, um, but they they kind of flesh out in different ways, right? And so what are your values and and how does this this short reality that you have, how does that impact who you actually want to live? And then, too, um, one thing that I talk about is how if you can befriend your death, you can befriend any hardship, any loss, right? And this word like befriend, right? That's a that's a big word.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

Yeah, I was challenging when you mentioned it without questions.

Mortality As Leadership Medicine

SPEAKER_01 8:59

Yeah, yeah, right. So, so I remember when I first heard about this concept, uh, through a theologian and psychologist, his name was Henry Nowen. He's from Europe, he he uh taught at Notre Dame and Yale and Harvard, all these big schools, right? Um, but he he talked about befriending your death, right? And how your death can be a gift to the people you love, right? And this this stuff, as I heard about it, I was like, no way, no way, dude. I don't like that. Like, death is the worst, right? It's the worst thing in life, right? And and that's true. And at the same time, uh, we can have that love and we can have that agency to befriend anything that will befall us, right? And and in doing so, like we show a tremendous amount of courage to say, like, this is a thing, and this is the worst thing that will happen to me in this life, that the life will end. And like, I can still be in relationship with that thing and be in a loving relationship, even though it's not gonna ever love me back. I can love what's going to happen to me, um, which is so empowering, right? And so if you can, if you can do that with the worst thing that's ever gonna happen with you um in your career, in your organization, right? A lot of a lot of ups and downs, right? Especially in the economy right now. Like we don't know what's gonna happen in a week or a month or a year with uh the conflict in the Middle East, with um, you know, AI revolution, all of it, like everything is so so up in the air, right? But the one thing we know is that like our life on this earth is not forever, and so we can uh we can take hold of that reality and do with it what we want, and it's our choice. And so I think there's there's that resilience that comes with it, and there's that clarity that comes with it as we look at our death as leaders.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

I see that. Okay, so I have a lot of questions about some of the ideas regarding mortality and such. Uh but one thing I love about this show that it gives me the opportunity to talk to leaders and and uh amazing folks like yourself. It's to kind of get a little deeper because a lot of the folks that I talk to that and watch listen to our show uh regularly, they really care about the human side, the side that they deal with the struggle every day. See, a lot of times we get highlights from people when they come on a show like this, or or in uh in front of a other side of a camera or social media post. We get the highlights, the good stuff, you know. We don't hear about the struggles and the challenges that people are still dealing with, and this is the kind of stuff that I hope our show helps folks break through. So I want to ask you a few questions along that line. Please, what is one area in your life, Dr. Clark, that you believe is least aligned with your values? Uh you're not critical, there's some things you know, obviously we got things to work on all the time. What's one area that's the least aligned with your values, but you want to change that today? What would that be?

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Okay, I think that's great. And I think it's it's the separation uh in terms of like the brain between the prefrontal cortex, right, and maybe the the amygdala, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:53

So, like the clock, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Right. Um, right. So, like, so like up here, right? The in the the the part of us that makes us human, right? The rational part, right? It's uh it's like, oh yes, of course. Uh death means that time is finite, and we we can understand that and you know put it in our life. And right here in this this more kind of reactive part where the the fight, flight, or fear happens, right, where the anxiety kind of happens, right? Um, for me, right, and I think for so many of us, it's it's that we have these values, we have these ideas, but in terms of like how our nervous system acts and reacts to things is just it's not always there. And and I think that's true for me, right? So sometimes when I'm talking about all this mortality awareness, right? I'm aware, right? But um, a little bit deeper down in in the psychology of it, um it that my body hasn't caught up, right? So I'm still in kind of occasionally fight, flight, or fear or anxious about this or that, like these things that really um if if the truth of what I'm talking about is true, right? Um well let's let's catch up. And so that that takes longer. It takes longer for the the uh that kind of older, more ancient part of our brains to to really believe this stuff, right? Because um, you know, it's it's there to save us from from lions and snakes and and the bad guys who you know come into our villages and whatever, right? And so like, so it has a harder time just coping with um with these these kind of deeper truths that our mind like as humans we can we can really um understand. And so I think that's it, right? That's where maybe I'm out of alignment is that like, you know, when uh when something happens and it's like I'm feeling overwhelmed because I have too many things to do, or you know, I have a six and eight-year-old and they're they're not listening, and we need to get out of the door, right? Right. And so, like, so yeah, you know, in this grand sweep of things, of course, you know, I want to show them love and care and concern and like you know, I know you're struggling with this or that, but like, hey, we got to get to school, we gotta get to baseball practice, right? And so, um, so I think that's where there's like uh there can be more alignment, right? And and I think part of that is just kind of allowing myself um that time to slow down to kind of reset that nervous system, right? So for me it's through prayer and meditation and and just allow allow that kind of baseline to not be humming quite so fast because I'm the kind of person who, you know, I'm I'm kind of go, go, go, right. But I need I need my nervous system to slow down sometimes so that it it doesn't get carried away when I'm dealing with other people, especially like kids, you know, um, where I'm I have the power to really harm or help them. And so yeah, I think that's it for me. Kind of that that anxiety that kind of comes up under the surface, or um just the way I react in in family life. And and you know, I I don't think I'm the only one who's like that because uh those loved ones that we have, we're kind of the meanest to them, right? And then and then it's those it's those thoughts that are kind of under the surface that we don't really allow allow to come up that are kind of sabotaging us sometimes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

No, that makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense. So, in regards to limiting beliefs, what's one that you had to get rid of to become the person that you desire to be today?

Anxiety Values And Nervous System

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Sure, yeah, thanks for that. Um, I think some of it has to do with um uh it has to do with the death stuff, right? I think the limiting belief was that like I almost like I had to I had to react to death. I had to think about death, my own death particularly, as this thing that was all bad, right? Like if I didn't consider it that way, that somehow I was doing a disservice to myself, and somehow I was doing a disservice to those other people who are on their deathbed, um, and maybe even to the people who are dead, right? So the death is always, always, always bad. And whatever we do around it, there's absolutely nothing good that comes of it. And I so I think that was eliminating belief, right? Because like I said, like death can be a gift, right? And that's that's really hard to believe, right? But if you're if you're there there dying, and there's a lot of science that talks about how like the the last bit of a memory is the most important, you know. Um, if you're there dying and you offer people love even in those last moments, right, like they're gonna carry that with them forever, right? But if you if you as a person you're dying, and what are you doing? You're holding on to those grudges, you're not finding forgiveness, you're not apologizing, like you're just stuck in that that way that you were that wasn't helpful in the past. Well, people are gonna keep that for the rest of their lives, like there wasn't that reconciliation, right? And so even in in the those dying breaths, right? You can offer those memories that will last for the rest of those other people's lives, and and I think that's so powerful. Um, you know, but it's it took me a while to even get there because you know, we just we're like, oh, death is the worst, right? And and again, it is, and we have that agency as we think about our death and what we can do with it.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

Absolutely, absolutely. Uh I feel like you're really equipped to answer this next question. Uh if every leader that you know understands fully that their time on earth here is finite, what are things that you recommend them to consider? Because I know that you're doing coaching and you're also dealing with life and death situations. Is there some things even maybe just two or three areas that you would want them to consider as leaders because they recognize that their time is finite? I'm asking that for a reason. And this and this it's not uh meant to be a loaded question, but what I'm seeing in leadership in my naked woods, in my uh circles of influence, are people who are so they hold on to their positions in their areas with tight white knuckle grips because they feel like if I lose this, I lose relevance. I'm not who I you know need to be without having this, without having this title or this status, and they hold on to it so tight that they never become uh they never breed an Elisha from an Elijah or a Timothy from a Paul or a uh a Caleb from a Moses, it never or to say a Caleb from a Joshua, excuse me. It never happens because it's so concerned with having on this this uh this grip, this death grip on their uh on their roles and their titles. We realize that we're not here forever and we have a finite amount of time doing what we're doing. What do you want people to consider that are leaders to start thinking about? Yeah, or putting into action. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 18:46

I think that's great. Yeah, actually, just last week, um, I finished a first draft of a manuscript for a book called Your Immortality Project, and it talks a little bit about that. Yeah, thank you. And so um what it is is is in terms of that, your question, um, like I I think we need to figure out why we're holding on so tight. I think all of life is a um is an understanding of like what do we want to hold on to and what what is it time to release, you know. I I I'm not a I'm not a Buddhist, but I've studied Buddhism, and you know, for them it's all about release, release, release. And as someone with my own perspective, you know, I I think yes, release a lot of it, but also let's let's hold on to things, right? Um uh the Buddha he left his son, right, when he was uh young. I I don't I can't leave my kids. Like that's not that's not for me to do, right? Like I'm their dad, I'm I have an obligation to them, right? Uh I'm married, I'm not like the Buddha he he left his wife too, right? Like, no, I I can't, I don't see myself doing that, right? And even in my own tradition, right, Christianity, right? Jesus talks about hating your family and all this, right? And so so like these are these are hard things that people talk about, but like for us, right? We have to figure out uh on our own what are the things we need to hold on to, what are the things we need to let go, right? And more than need to, what do we want to, right? And so uh when there's a need or a want, I think there's there's something underneath the surface in terms of the why. And so for folks who are holding on deeply to I think you said that like white knuckle grip, right? Like, like what's that about, right? Because there's probably something deeper down that feels like it's missing, yeah, right. And it's right, there's like this emptiness down there, right? And so, like, what what is it that that that that role is doing for you, right? And if it's doing that for you, you know, great. Um, but like, is it doing it for you in a way that's that you could you could open yourself up more and that release would actually like calm you down and have less stress? Like, maybe not at first, right? Because letting go is is really hard. But is there a way that you can come into like a greater capacity for leadership and for life by letting go of that um and and finding something new or letting go of that somewhat so that that next person can come along, you know, because because we we don't have forever, right? And even if we live a long time, right? Like our capacity in terms of our physical bodies, it might not be there. Our capacity in terms of our minds, it might not be there. You know, I have family members who who died of heart attack, family members who died of stroke, they were they were in the hospital, they were in the nursing homes, right? And like we've all seen that. We've all seen that. And so, like our time even on this earth, it might not be, it might not be enough to accomplish everything we want. And so, what are we gonna do about what comes next, right? There's so many people who are leaders, like we've seen this again and again, and they have these awesome personalities, and they're just so charismatic, and everyone loves them, and they don't set up, like you're talking about, they don't set up the Elijah to Elisha, they don't set up that next person, right? Paul to Timothy, whoever it is. And what happened? Everything falls apart, nothing is as it was because it's all based on that one person. And if you're doing that uh in your own leadership, like you're doing a disservice to the people around you, you're doing a disservice to your legacy, you're doing a disservice to the organization itself.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Absolutely no fantastic answer. Thank you, sir. Appreciate that. Yeah, now that you've seen uh I guess the perils of life and death, if you will, up close and personal. How do you define success? A lot of people who haven't seen that, who are kind of in their own little bubble, which are which is most people in the world, we lack self-awareness. One of the biggest diseases that we suffer from, the biggest maladies is self-awareness. We lack it. Uh, what's your definition of success, Dr. Clark?

Releasing Titles Defining Success

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Yeah, okay. So I come at that from two ways, right? So I think um the first one is success is measured uh by us, right? We get to decide what that measure of success is, right? And so what is success for me? It's well, uh, you know, I get to decide. So around my family, I get to decide what it looks like to be a good dad. Uh around my work, I get to decide what that looks like, you know, in terms of the goal setting, all that stuff, right? But like that, that leaves us a little bit more free-floating than um I think most of us probably want. And so for me personally as well, I think success comes from um what I understand about the world and my faith, you know. And so I think there that has to do with um like how the goodness of the world that has to do with what God says. And so I think success has to do with that. And so some of that has to do with the the three Christian virtues, right? Faith, hope, and love, you know. And the the best of these, the the apostle Paul says in uh first Corinthians 13 is love, right? And so uh that's the measure of success. It's similar to what I was saying earlier, right? Like, have I done this in a way that is conducive to love and is coming out of love, right? And so if something is is based on love, I think that it's right. And and what is love, right? That's a question philosophers and theologians have been talking about for millennia. It's it's it's a tricky one, right? But we all I think have a pretty good working concept of love. Enough to know, like, was this a loving decision? If I do this, is it loving? Right. And so that that comes out in our work, that comes out in our friendships, that comes out in um like how we how we pay taxes or not, that comes out in like how we cook the books or not, that comes out in a lot of ways, right? Because love is more than just a happy feeling, right? Love is how we are in fidelity to others, how we are faithful to those that we need to be faithful to, right? Whether that's people in society, people in our household, people in our organizations. Yeah, so I would pin in on love for sure.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Yeah, no, I love that. I love the answer. Uh, we just got time for uh uh two or three more questions. So because you've got a chance to see the impact of death up close, I know a lot of people have, but I really feel like people are how do I put this in words that won't offend people? Uh you know, that's not that's not that's never my goal of this show, but uh I guess we can look at it because I've experienced much of loss in my life, and uh it's supposed to kind of reframe how you view things because you're still amongst the living, you should some things should change because of what you saw, what you got in close to, what you've experienced. Yeah, what do you think about some common regrets that you've seen in your time working with people at the end of their life? What are common regrets that you've seen?

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Yeah, well, thank you. Yeah, the first one that comes to mind was is actually a little bit in tension with some of the the executive executive coaching, right? Which is a lot of people talk about they regret working so much, right? And they didn't take the time for the things that according to their value systems uh were more important, things like family, things like friendship, things like I don't know, seeing the world, right? Like, oh, I should have done this, I should have gone there, I should have like gone to more of those little league practices, whatever it is, you know. Um but yeah, I think I think people they sent spend so much of their time, and like you're saying, with these people holding on to their roles so much as part of their identity, um, they look back and they say, Okay, you know, maybe I maybe I made the money I wanted to, or maybe I had the power or prestige I wanted to, but um at the expense of what? And usually it's usually honestly it's family. So I think that's a regret. Um and and there are others, you know, and they've they've done they've done studies on this, right? But um, yeah, I think that's a big one. I think also just um some people kind of regret uh not having that reconciliation, that forgiveness, you know, like, oh, why'd I hold on to that grudge for 20 years, you know, or or why did I not forgive my my parents, you know, because all parents mess up, right? Like any parent knows, like I messed up, and any human knows, oh, you know what, mom and dad, they didn't quite do that the right way, you know. Like we all have that, right? And so what uh not letting go of that, right? We talked about holding on, letting go, but like forgiveness is a kind of letting go, right? And it's it's only within our power. And if we don't let go, right? Like, what does that do to the other person? Like, it doesn't like let them off the hook or or anything like that. Like, that just it just it's us, it's in us, right? And so I think that's a regret too, like that not having reconciliation. Um, I think those are kind of the big ones, you know. Um and again, like it's back to the values, like not living according to the values we actually think we have or want to have.

Regrets Goals Legacy And Where To Find

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Yeah, all right. So this is my final question for you, and I'm gonna give you the opportunity to let us know what we can find your work and contact you if they have any questions. Um because you've got a chance to see life and death up close. Like I said, this is something that should change you, it should change the way you view things, your mindset should be different. It's like if somebody dies and they come back to life, you can't be on that side of things and come back and say, you know what, I'm gonna do exactly where I picked up, where I left off. I'm gonna pick up exactly where I was. It's really hard to understand that. So, my question to you is what's your big, hairy, audacious goal? What's your bag? What's the goal that you know what? If I don't do anything else, this one thing, it's not it's not I don't mean general, I mean in specifics. What's this one thing you must accomplish? It's your legs, if you will. It's going to be written on your epitaph, if you will. I gotta do this. This is this is what drives me every single day. I gotta make this goal happen if I don't do anything else. Do you have one of those?

SPEAKER_01 28:51

Yeah, okay. So I'll do a little one and then a big one. I think too, yeah. How's that? And in a little in terms of scope, but maybe really deep still, is is I want to be a good father, right? Like, that's I think that's uh even the even the coaching, the leadership stuff, right? Why am I doing that? Is because like I want to provide a a good livelihood for my family so that when my kids are going to college, which you know in 10 years, it's gonna be what three.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

Don't rush it, man. Take your time, but trust me, take your time, don't rush.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

No, yeah, don't rush it, but like, right, if college is three hundred thousand dollars, I have two kids, that's six hundred thousand dollars, right? And by then, right, it probably is gonna be that much or more, right? Like, and um, my wife and I, we had to go with we had to have some college debt, all this stuff, right? Yeah setting them up, setting them up financially. That's that's a that's a goal. Also, just like being a good dad, being there when I can. So that that's that's the smaller one, right? And I think the bigger one has to it has to do with this this death stuff, right? Which is like uh enabling a culture, a society to start not finish, but start really contending with what does it mean to face your death, and even what does it mean to befriend your death. I I don't think I can convince everyone that this is something they're gonna want to do, right? I even have friends who say, I see your stuff on LinkedIn, Seth, and I can't even read it, right? Because it's just it's just too it hits.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

It's just the word befriend. I I told you this in our conversation when we first met. It's it's just it's not no finishing your mortality because I think everybody understands we have to do that. Yeah, it's just the word choice, the word befriends. I guarantee that's all it is. Change that word, and your friends have no problem reading your post. I'm I'm just some free advice you can ask for. Thank you, thank you. No, but even that, even when I don't use that word, even when I when you have friends, you invite them over for dinner, you go out to the gun rings with them, or you go out to uh retreats with them, you go on cruises with them. Yeah, the idea of bringing death on the cruise is a horrible idea. Have you seen the Titanic? Nobody wants to do that, so that's where your friend will probably come in from. It's like, okay, the imagery of friend, uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

Yeah, and it gets in the I'm sure it gets in the way of sales, right? But the whole the whole thing does the whole thing does, right? Like, because most people they don't want to face it, you know, and even when I use like like less direct language, you know, the the friends, and I know other people that are like, I just can't do this, right? And so like that that is a big hairy audacious goal, right? Because we we are in we are in a denial of death, right? We deny our death, right? And there's yeah in this AI stuff, right? We want to like just load our brains into the cloud when we're dead and then live forever that way, like you know what I mean. Like it even if they can't befriend it, I think if they can confront it in a way that gives them the agency and the courage, like that would be a win, you know, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

I like it, I like it. Thanks for being the thought. That was a fantastic conversation with you, man. You bought you brought too much to the table. I look for you to take the last two minutes or so and kind of just let everybody know how you would be remembered, not only because of this episode, this interview, but also in your entire life. How do you want to be remembered? Speak about legacy a little bit, and then let folks know how they can find your work. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I think in terms of how what I want my legacy to be is um on my tombstone, right? Um, a man who led with love. Like, I think that's it, you know. And then um, in terms of, you know, how do you how do you remember me if you're kind of in your life and you're like, you know what, I've had this hard transition, maybe I need some coaching, find me, right? So just uh there's two ways you can find me online that as far as websites, Seth DavidClark.com, just my name, that's my personal website, all kinds of stuff, everything from like guided prayers to academic stuff I wrote to books I wrote to here's what coaching is about, and then life, death, and leadership.com, which is the business. And so there you can find out about coaching, and then also I have one course live right now about ethical decision making and high-stakes leadership. More courses are coming soon about um leading with your end in mind, and even uh uh one is kind of fun, it's called Leadership Hacks from the Dead. So it's looking at old stoic philosophy and how we can think about you know life now in terms of how we want to lead according to again, according to virtue, according to values. So, yeah, those are the ways. And then I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. So LinkedIn, and then just my name, Seth David Clark. Um, so that's how you can kind of keep in touch and contact me, follow what I'm doing, um, you know, send it, send a hello. And uh, yeah, hopefully it's all about love at the end of the day, and love not just again as a feeling, but as like fidelity to the people in our lives.

SPEAKER_00 33:36

Thank you very much, Dr. Seth David Clark in the house. Seth David Clark.com and life deaf and leadership.com is the business. Of course, you can find him on LinkedIn as well. He's very very active there. Definitely reach out, offer some questions about life, deaf mortality and how to be a leader when you face those things. I'm sure he has a great uh perspective and uh understanding for you there. So thanks again, sir, for your time on this and for being a part of this. If you are watching us, serve devicesclark.com and lifedept and leadership.com. For those that can't see us and now listen today, check it out. It's gonna be also inside the show notes for today's episode. And if you call this your first time you want to see more of our shows, upper left-hand corner of the screen, the QR code, use your camera real quickly going off air. Use your camera to grab that or catch it on the replay. You can grab it there, I think. And it'll allow you to get access to all of our shows from the past and incredible interviews like this one with Dr. Steph Clark. So thank you again for your time on this, sir, and for being a part of this. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

We're out of here. Have a good day.