EP 4: Primaries, Polis, & Puck Drops

This week on Politics is Personal, Leslie Herod and Cole Wist tackle the stories shaping conversations across Colorado—from the latest primary election battles to Governor Jared Polis and his evolving role on the national political stage.

Joining the conversation is longtime Colorado political analyst Eric Sondermann. Together, they break down the winners, losers, and unexpected storylines emerging from Colorado's political landscape, discuss what voters should be watching, and explore how the state's unique political culture continues to influence national conversations.

Of course, it wouldn't be Politics is Personal without a few detours. Leslie and Cole also weigh in on hockey, TSA frustrations, and the everyday experiences that remind us politics doesn't happen in a vacuum—it happens in airports, arenas, and communities across the country.

From election strategy to travel headaches, this episode brings politics back to the dinner table with thoughtful conversation, a little disagreement, and plenty of Colorado perspective.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Welcome to Politics is Personal with Leslie and Cole. I'm Leslie Harrod.

SPEAKER_02 0:04

And I'm Cole West. Great to be with you again this week, Leslie. We look forward to a great program. Eric Sonderman is going to be joining us. Colorado Primary Day is coming up on June 30th. Eric Sonderman is a longtime political consultant and commentator, and I'm sure to be a fascinating conversation with Eric. And look forward to maybe hearing about your history with Eric. Yeah, well, look forward to that conversation. And as always, we'll be wrapping up the show after we talk to Eric with uh what's bugging us. And uh I know we've got a video from from one of our listeners that I look forward to watching. Yeah. Uh but in in terms of what's in our feed this week, you know, we spent a lot of time talking about politics, but I just want to start with my man, the Holy Father, Pope Leo. Uh as you know, I'm a proud Catholic, and I love what this man is doing, not just for the church, but for the world in terms of bringing humanity. Um but in in a I just he had there are these rare glimpses of of this guy from Chicago who became Pope.

SPEAKER_04 1:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

Um and today he was crawling into an electric Ferrari um looking at it, and you could see that he wanted to go d drive off. But I I think when we have somebody like that who clearly is in touch with who he is as a person, it really does show the importance of authenticity uh to leadership generally. So um uh I think if if we only had more authenticity like that in our elected leaders, maybe we'd be in a better place.

SPEAKER_04 1:45

It's so interesting, and you know, not as a Catholic, but someone who went to Catholic school when I was a little girl. Um I find it very interesting to see a Pope that's so human and so close to humanity. And I don't know if that's like the Americanism in him or if that's something else, or maybe it's just the availability of the social media clips and stuff that we have now. But uh recently in my feed on the Pope, I also saw him finally apologizing for slavery, but also condemning AI. I mean, I think it's really interesting to see a Pope having normal thoughts and normal conversations with people and really relating that to people's everyday lives. Best Pope ever?

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Uh in my lifetime, and I and I I love Pope John Paul II, but I I I think there there's something to be said for, I think as as an American Catholic, a pope that is very fluent in English, who doesn't really need a filter or a translator to talk to American Catholics, to the American people. Um and because of that, I think he's breaking through in a way that that previous popes um were not able to do. Uh so I uh uh just look forward to all of the amazing things that I think he'll be doing in his in his pontificate. Um but I'm I'm I'm glad he's speaking out uh about some subjects that the church has needed needed to come to terms with. The the comments that you heard about about slavery. Um so I just kind of makes me wonder what what he's gonna do next.

SPEAKER_04 3:20

Yeah, I hope he's in all of our feeds, honestly. I think it's what America needs right now, is again someone who's having just rational conversations and is really kind of bringing people together as opposed to dividing, and maybe also providing a a type of, I don't know what the word is, but really some type of solace to folks who maybe needed to hear that apology, or maybe you know, needed need to hear from the Pope or see him driving the Ferrari and caring about normal everyday things. And so I'm excited about that. But what's in my feed is a little bit different. I gotta tell you, today has been interesting, and this isn't you know Thursday, so I don't know where this is going, but Joe Biden has popped in my feed like like and caught like wildfire because she's come out with a statement saying that she was shocked, and it was the first time she had ever seen uh Joe Biden um kind of not putting his sentences together, and during the debate, she thought he might have been drugged. And there's a lot of conversations right now on social media that are like that's absolutely not true. It's not actually going over, I think, in the way that folks thought it would. Have you been seeing that?

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Well, first of all, I'm gonna call bullshit on that, okay? Um that could not have been the first time that Joe Biden was was struggling with with you know the the cognitive effects of age. Um it's a head scratcher to me in terms of why she's speaking up now. Did she write a book? I mean what what what's okay, I you know. Uh and how is this helpful to Joe Biden's legacy?

SPEAKER_04 4:47

I don't think it's helpful to the legacy, and I actually don't think it's helpful for the party right now that's trying to kind of rebuild to rehash something that you know, I think uh I I saw CNN quoted our very own Jason Crow as well on the subject, which is no one outside of Washington is talking about this anymore. People are trying to rebuild and move forward. We're we're in primary season right now across the country and bringing this back up and almost trying to, I think, maybe she's trying to safeguard his legacy. It's having the opposite impact, and quite frankly, I think it's causing uh div divisive conversations that don't need to be had right now when we need to be focusing on who's the best person um in all of these seats to win and then take over the White House so that we have the right party, I think, uh in my in my opinion, the right party in place to overturn some of the wildness that's happening in Washington right now.

SPEAKER_02 5:33

Here's my take on why Jill Biden is doing this. It's a gigantic CYA, okay? Um she encouraged him to run for another term. It turned out to be a completely catastrophic decision. Um and perhaps Jill wants to sort of rewrite history. Uh but truth be told, Jill Biden had a lot to do with Joe Biden's decision to pursue a second term. It it seemed so much like that was a product of the people around Joe Biden. Um and also at a time, I think you know, the the longer we're removed from the end of Joe Biden's pres presidency, we're seeing that a lot of things that that he worked on as president will be viewed favorably historically. So it's not clear to me why this mistake and perhaps the way that folks like Jill Biden and others fumbled that, uh, they think it's helpful to sort of bring that up and and rehash it. I don't see this going particularly well for Jill Biden or Joe Biden.

SPEAKER_04 6:38

Yeah, I find it interesting to have someone of so many people around you for so long, including your spouse. And I'm not married, so you tell me if Susan would notice if you had been losing your your your faculty, your facility.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

She would say that on most days, right?

SPEAKER_04 6:52

It wouldn't be a surprise when you showed up at a debate.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

No, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 6:55

You know, and so I I just don't know if it's a sign that he was if it's saying that he was so removed that no one saw it. Um but I definitely don't don't buy this whole he was drug thing. And and again, I guess we should.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

Maybe it could happen, but did she say that she thought he might have had a stroke during the debate? Okay. I I just think that's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_04 7:14

Yeah, yeah. No, so anyways, that's in my feed.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

Uh well, I the the other thing that that's in my feed, sadly, is that the Aves are um out of the Stanley Cup playoffs. Uh we had all hoped that uh, you know, we we might have another Stanley Cup champion. I was growing my hair out.

SPEAKER_04 7:34

Is that what's going on?

SPEAKER_02 7:35

Well, it's just you know, there's a few things going on.

SPEAKER_04 7:38

I um I was gonna ask you about your midlife crisis hair.

SPEAKER_02 7:42

My wife used to always give me craft for her, like, why are you cutting your hair every four weeks? So finally I'm like, okay, fine, I'll grow it out. Okay, okay. And uh and here we are. So um, but you know, then I was telling my friends, well, you know, I'm gonna I'm I'm growing it out for the Stanley Cup playoffs.

SPEAKER_04 7:58

Why? Why why is that a thing? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

It's like you know, the the players will like they they grow their beards, they grow their hair, and then you know they'll they'll do it as long as it the team continues to go. So I don't know what my ex ex excuse is gonna be for continuing to grow my hair out. Um I think it looks good under a under a baseball cap with all this, you know, wild hair flowing out.

SPEAKER_04 8:19

So it's not about you getting like Western Slope Cred. I know you've been back home working on the the farm, you know. So I was wondering if that was it or I don't know. It it mullets are popular with the lesbians, so you might be right on brand right now. I don't know. So, but we love it.

SPEAKER_02 8:34

Uh uh, you know, I wasn't shooting for mullet, but you know, we'll we'll just kind of see where it goes. I don't know. Maybe maybe our listeners have some opinions about my crazy hair. Uh who knows? And it's certainly a lot different than it used to be.

SPEAKER_04 8:46

Well, you know what, listeners, uh, why don't you all let us know? Sound off in the comments if you think Coles continued to grow out his hair, and if you understand this whole hair growth for the abs in the first place. But you know what? I was surprised that they that they got kicked out so early uh that they lost. But you know, um we're gonna we're gonna come back.

SPEAKER_02 9:04

Uh just one other thing about hockey, um, and I guess you could say I'm a hockey purist. I went to DU and DU is a proud hockey hockey tradition. I don't know that hockey should be played under the Mason Dixon line. I don't think should we have hockey teams in Florida and Carolina? Las Vegas? Uh it just seems strange to me. So I don't know. Let's let's keep hockey up north, maybe where it belongs. And you know, as an aside, I did see that that Montreal last lost last night. And um, you know, I think the Canadians are still snake bit after losing the gold medal game in the Olympics. But uh, you know, our our friends in Canada probably could use a win.

SPEAKER_04 9:44

Well, that's enough sports for me for now. Okay, we'll stop. But we will be back uh and we will be joined by our friend uh Eric Sonderman uh right after this.

SPEAKER_02 9:55

Welcome back to Politics is Personal. We're joined today by uh our guest um who I have long admired, who I think is a rational voice of the middle in Colorado politics. Eric Sonderman, welcome to Politics is Personal with Leslie and Cole.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Hey, it's um my pleasure to be here. I really respect the relationship you guys have forged around the Capitol and the fact you're doing this together. Leslie and I've had probably some harsh things to say about Leslie over the years, or at least less than kind, and the fact that Leslie would have me on this program speaks to the fact that uh we need civil discourse, and I respect what you guys are doing.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

Well, um thanks for for coming on the program and and uh you know you I think have been uh someone in in Colorado politics who's written extensively um about the the nature and and the the state of Colorado politics, which is always in a st in a state of flux, but you have a long history with with Colorado politics dating back to Governor Lamb. So um would just like to pitch it over to you to introdu you know have you introduce yourself to uh to our viewers and what would what would you like folks to know most about Eric?

SPEAKER_00 11:09

Oh I guess you know there are different chapters to my life. Someone once referred to those chapters as like Russian history with whole chapters missing, but uh be that be that be that aside, uh I grew up a very long time ago doing Democratic campaigns, Dick Lamb being one of them, uh obviously many decades back. I sort of fell away from the Democratic Party, never went over to what my friends call the dark side, but uh fell away from the Democratic Party over a host of issues, school choice being top of that list. Uh ran a public relations firm in Denver, a substantial firm for about 20 years. SE2 operated sort of at that intersection of mass communication and public policy. Sold that a dozen years ago now to my partners and using this chapter to just say what's on my mind. I write regular columns for a trio of papers, Colorado Politics, Denver Gazette, Colorado Springs Gazette. I'm in there weekly. I also have a Substack, part of Colorado Inside Out for 20-some years, the Friday Night TV show. I try to call it as I see it and take somewhat of a centrist or at least moderate or at least let's talk across the divide kind of approach.

SPEAKER_04 12:24

Yeah, and I think you know, you mentioned that um we always haven't had the uh most open dialogue or you haven't had the most kindest things to say. But I've always felt like that was primarily because we didn't know each other at all. And I would be pretty surprised at the conclusions you would draw, um, particularly because we had not spoken or much. And what I find interesting, especially in your latest column that you've done for the uh Color of Politics and Denver Gazette and all of the rest, uh, which are affiliated papers, is that you know there are some parts that we actually agree on, you know, and I think if we start there, that's kind of how we have these conversations. If we start there, then we're able to understand the parts we disagree on better, right? And so I wanted to talk about your article recently, um uh where you kind of had some biting uh words to say about Jared Polis and his decision on Tina Peters. Now we've talked about that on this show um a lot, but it's not dying down. And so we wanted to get your opinion on that today.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

It is certainly not dying down. I'll start by Leslie, first of all, acknowledging I think your critique is right. We haven't known each other, and that's probably been my failing, at least as a commentator. Uh, I ought to know the person I'm talking about, whether the that discussion is positive or less than positive. Uh I I accept that critique. In terms of the column I wrote a week back about our governor and the commutation, I tried to take the the decision on the commutation and and go bigger with it. And I think it pointed to some key hallmarks of Polis' governorship. And I know you served for what, six out of the eight years in the legislature, six out of polis' eight years, you were part of the legislature. Um, and you saw it much more close closely than I did. But you know, part of it was just how Jared Polis got elected, as I put it in the column. Other people eye offices to be won. He sort of eyed prizes to be purchased, you know, starting with spending a million dollars for some low leaf seat on the State Board of Education, uh more or less buying a seat in the U.S. Congress and then spending north of $25 million to be elected governor. All of that is perfectly legal, constitutional, all the rest. But having invested that kind of money, Jared Polis was not going to be short-changed. He swung his elbows very actively, and often he swung them at Democrats as much as he swung them at Republicans. I thought the decision about Peters, I don't buy the notion um that it was part of a deal with the White House. Okay. I can be proven wrong, but I don't buy that notion. I don't buy the notion that it was a political calculation, because there's no calculus in the world that I can imagine that would lead him to that decision. I think it was he had this, I referred to it as an itch, and he just had to scratch the itch. And the itch was only I can fix it. I see this miscarriage of justice, and only I can fix it, even though the Colorado Court of Appeals had taken him off the hook. They had demanded uh, or not demanded, required a resentencing, which was in process. Um, and yet he still felt compelled to sort of get on his high horse and quote unquote fix it. Uh uh the contrition, if you can call it contrition on the part of Tina Peters, I don't buy into for a minute. I think as soon as she's released, which I think will be sometime in the next very few days, um, you know, she's gonna be back on the election denying circuit. She'll be an even bigger celebrity on that circuit than she was before.

SPEAKER_04 16:00

So you think Jared was walking in as the white savior to save the day, but there really was no threat coming to Colorado from the White House?

SPEAKER_00 16:07

I don't know. I uh clearly there was a threat coming to Colorado. I mean, witnessed his veto of the water uh legislation down in Southeast Colorado, Lauren Boebert's district, as a matter of fact. Uh uh but I don't think that's gonna turn around overnight. I mean, maybe the White House releases some minor amount of funding for some this or that uh in Colorado. But no, I don't think this was a surreptitious negotiation with the White House. I think this was just polis saying, I don't give a damn if I can use that word on a podcast.

SPEAKER_04 16:42

And I think you can use any words on this podcast. I'm being I'm being gentle.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

I'm being gentle. Uh but I think it's polis saying, I don't give a damn. Yeah. Uh I don't care. Um I don't know if he saw the he had to. He's not a you can say a lot of things about Jared Polis. Stupid is not one of them. He's a very smart one. Sometimes he's too smart for his own good. He always has to advertise that he's the smartest person in the room. But he had to know at least the outlines of the reaction that was coming. Now, whether he anticipated the full bore reaction or not, I'm not sure. And I think the reaction, as I said in my column, in some cases is over the top.

SPEAKER_04 17:20

You're meaning the censure from the Democratic Party.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

I thought the censure from the Democratic Party, I get it. But it it's just we're witnessing in real time here Republicans purging anyone, whether it's in Texas, in Louisiana, in Indiana, in Kentucky, you run the list. Anyone who is if they're if you're only 98% loyal to Donald Trump, you're purged. There's no acceptable number under 100. And I sort of feel the same is going on in a different way on the Democratic side of the aisle, that there's just all politics these days revolves around Donald Trump. And uh Republicans have to be 100% allegiant, and Democrats have to be 100% opposed. And 97-98 is not a good enough number.

SPEAKER_02 18:08

Well, um a couple things I I I want to that's a lot to to uh unpack there. But uh first of all, I think Jared Polis, the itch that he has to scratch, frankly, is pissing people off. I think he enjoys pissing people off. I don't know what that is about his personality, whether or not that's his leadership style, but I think there he has shown a penchant for wanting to stir the pot and piss people off, because he can. Um I think he way overstepped this time. Um and speaking as a former Republican, somebody from the Western Slope, um, for somebody like uh the district attorney in Mesa County, uh Dan Rubenstein, who who who stuck his neck out, frankly, to do his job and and to prosecute Tina Peters in the face of overwhelming political pressure not to do that, um, was uh it's a real betrayal by the governor of a district attorney who I think showed tremendous courage. Um I've talked to Phil Weiser about that exact thing. So from a political standpoint, does it make sense? From a personal standpoint, does it make sense? From a legal standpoint, it doesn't make sense. So as Leslie and I talked last week, this is just a complete head scratcher, other than the fact that Jared Polis likes pissing people off. That's kind of the conclusion I've come to.

SPEAKER_04 19:30

Well, do you think that's what the tape around the mouth was? Was him trying to piss people off? I mean, I don't know why he did that so publicly. It does kind of fit in line with what you just said. What did you think about that?

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Heard or seen.

SPEAKER_04 19:45

Wasn't heard, it was seen. Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

Um I thought it was weird, but I thought it was somewhat on brand for polls. If you remember uh the bridge, the 150-year celebration bridge to nowhere. It's a literal bridge to nowhere, yeah. Where he put it up to a poll, and I think the poll showed 97 percent, 97 point some odd percent of Colorado saying no, you can't get 97 percent of the state to agree on anything that they want the Broncos to win. You can't get 97% of the state to agree on anything, and yet they agreed that this was an ill-fated idea, and then polls tried to take all the credit after the fact of, oh, I listened to the people. I think you know, Jared is sort of a social media creature uh in s in some respects, and it went viral. It went viral, yeah, yeah. And I think that was his intention.

SPEAKER_02 20:39

Before we pivot from this subject, I'm gonna just ask you point blank, is Jared Polis done politically?

SPEAKER_04 20:44

That's my question.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

It is hard to see a scenario where he's not. Right. I have a few smart people around Denver, um people probably both of you know, I'll keep names out of it, who are whispering in my ear that he has some four-dimensional chess play going on about running for president as an independent. I've had people, serious people, talk in my ear uh to the fact of look for him to tag team with Spencer Cox. Spencer Cox being the Republican governor of Utah. So they do a lot of stuff together. The Republican governor of Utah. I do like him, by the way. And I I'm a Spencer Cox fan as well. I think he's quite frankly the best governor in the country right now, but be that as it may.

SPEAKER_04 21:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

And um, you know, first of all, even if Cox and Polis were to get together, it begs the question of which of them is on the top line. Yes. I do think Spencer Cox, uh Jared Polis needs Spencer Cox a lot more than Spencer Cox needs Jared Polis. Right. I I don't put a lot of stock into that, but I do have people telling me that Polis is envisioning that. In terms of a future in the Democratic Party, I don't know how you run around Iowa or New Hampshire, or quite frankly, Adams County or Denver County. County or Boulder County, Colorado, saying I'm the person who let Tina Peters off the hook. I don't know how that plays in the Democratic Party. It doesn't.

SPEAKER_04 22:09

Anywhere. And I think it's really interesting, and I would love to see a Colorado become president of the United States of America or even vice president, but the way that the numbers work out Electoral College, I don't see a Utah Colorado ticket getting the votes needed to really, I think, win the primary or a general election. But I can't.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Yeah, an independent race. How do you fund an independent race?

SPEAKER_04 22:31

100%. And that's a definitely a longer conversation because it's just not the way that we are set up in this country to be successful without a part party support, without having that machine. You cannot raise billion dollars, millions and billions of dollars to become president.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

But I know you want to move on, but let's be honest. Jared Polis, who's a very wealthy individual, not that wealthy. He has gubernatorial kind of money. He does not have presidential kind of money.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

Well let's talk let's talk about rich people buying races in Colorado because that's happening again. Um because we've got Michael Bloomberg, who certainly is putting his thumb on the scale in the Colorado governor's race. So uh how do you break that one down?

SPEAKER_00 23:10

And Bloomberg has played in Colorado for Mike Trump and uh also, well, as you well know, in the mayoral race on behalf of our current mayor. Yes. And I believe in other races as well. Yeah, we're as we tape here, call it a month from the primary election. But if it's a month from the primary, that means it's more like 10 days from ballots going in the mail. So we're all gonna have ballots sitting on our kitchen table very, very quickly. And, you know, a number of fascinating primaries. On the Democratic side, I mean, these primaries are tantamount to election. Uh, whoever wins the primary between Weiser and Bennett will be the next governor. With all respect to Barb Kirkmeyer, who I think is a very able legislator, decent human being, etc. And we can talk about the Republican primary separate, but either Phil Weiser or Michael Bennett are going to be the next governor of the state. Ditto for the next uh Secretary of State, ditto for the next attorney general, whatever. The primary is the whole ball game here, given the kind of state Colorado has uh evolved into. A smart person, this a number of weeks ago, uh, told me, and I I like how he framed it between Weiser and Bennett. He said, I don't know where to believe my eyes or believe the metrics. Because if you believe your eyes, it seems like all the momentum is with Weiser. All the enthusiasm is with Weiser, all sort of the online social media kind of world seems to be moving in Weiser's direction. I think he's getting better turnout as it events, etc. And yet some of the polling is a little bit dated at this point, but the polling still would indicate that Bennett is ahead. And uh, you know, uh if you turn on the TV these days, maybe that'll change over the next week. But I'm seeing a lot more Bennett advertising than I am seeing wiser advertising. Some of that may be Michael Bloomberg's money, but wherever that money comes from, it's a fact of life. I I don't know how to handicap this race. I don't know how to handicap this race. I think the differences between Michael be Michael and Phil are less than meets the eye. I mean, I think this is a campaign somewhat of manufactured differences. Uh I don't know how how they will each of them would govern is going to be wholly, wholly different. I think there's some issues on which they would go different directions, education being one of them, where Bennett clearly is more on the reform choice side and and Wiser clearly would be closer to union and union interests. That's one. But uh I think at the end of the day, this is a campaign of s rather small differences.

SPEAKER_04 25:50

I mean I think that you know, taking it back and stepping outside of the political arena and friends and conversations that we have, it always comes back to who do people want to have a drink with? Who do people like? I I I go back to that because right now the the polls I don't trust, you know. You I do see the enthusiasm gap that you mentioned. I feel like the race didn't really heat up until just now. You know, I don't think that um Bennett's team took Wiser's team very seriously, but he is definitely working very hard. He wiser. Um and so then you just see the commercials and you know that that's what's gonna reach the majority of Coloradans. And I just wonder who they want to have a drink with more.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

And I don't know the answer to that. I think both uh Michael and Phil are I'd have a drink with either if that's the question. Uh and uh I don't I don't say that about every politician. Um Lord knows it it it's a it's a it's a very good it's a very good point, Leslie. Um I think Michael Bennett is clearly the establishment democrat. He's running in the establishment lane. He's somewhat for a whole host of reasons going back 20 years tied to John Hickenlooper. Now Hickenlooper's gonna win that primary. I mean, I think Julie Gonzalez has probably done about as much with it as she can do, and she's developed a voice for herself and all the rest. But you know, Hickenlooper will overwhelmingly win that primary. Bennett is attached to Hickenlooper for reasons going back to when he was Hickenlooper's chief of staff as mayor of Denver. I don't know being an establishment Democrat these days or an established member of the U.S. Senate in this age of Trump, in this age of Democrats being apoplectic about their powerlessness. I'm not sure that's the lane you want to occupy.

SPEAKER_04 27:40

Yeah, and I know Cole has a few quick questions, but what I've noticed on the on the left is there is a bit of a backlash to Weiser right now. And folks are saying, I think after the last televised debate, that Weiser is not much different than Bennett. And as much as it seems like he's running further to the left, he's actually not. And I agree with that. I mean, I don't like Weiser is not some far left candidate. He's not some, you know, he's an insurgent, but he's not that candidate.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

He's not gonna be confused for Julie.

SPEAKER_04 28:06

Exactly. You know, exactly, 100%. And so, you know, I think that that is really interesting, and it makes me wonder if it's if Phil might outwork himself by putting himself out there too much and having conversations with people like we we want them to do. But then people are noticing that he is actually quite, I mean, I would say he's a he's a progressive, but he's a moderate Democrat, and I think he'll govern moderately.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

That's my take, quote unquote. Uh I think as I said it earlier, it's uh you know, the differences between the two of them are not non-existent, but they're rather small, and quite frankly, unlike a Julie Gonzalez, unlike a Milat Kiros running against who's on TV with a real by running against Diana De Guette. Uh Phil is running in that progressive lane, quite frankly, because it's the only available lane.

SPEAKER_04 28:54

100%.

SPEAKER_02 28:55

So you go back to Dick Lamb, you've you've seen a lot of governors. Um I'm gonna I'm gonna pose this question to both of you. Which which governor over the last 30 years do you think has been the most effective in Colorado and why? And as a result of that, uh of your decision to to name that person, do you think Michael Bennett or Phil Weiser would be uh closer to that person and why? You go first. He was posing it to both of us.

SPEAKER_04 29:25

Well, I think you guys might know my answer if you know uh much about my background, and that would be Governor Bill Ritter, uh, who was one of my first bosses in politics. Uh working for him was definitely one of the greatest opportunities of my career. Um but watching him lead and being able to watch from inside of the rooms really showed me how centered his character was and how much he was driven by his his values and his core. And when you're having these really tough conversations, be it unions, be it water, be it, you know, police accountability or whatever it is, environmental justice, a lot of times your values are put at odds against each other. And I like to see how people make those decisions. And Bill did not make decisions by going to all of his political advisors and then deciding. He went inward, went with his gut, and made a decision that we could all respect and understand. And I very much value that. Does it give you much in politics these days? I don't know. But I think he was the best governor that I've seen in my lifetime.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

What do you think? Uh obviously partial to Dick Lamb, but you mentioned last 30 years, and I think uh Lamb left office more like 40 years ago.

SPEAKER_02 30:27

All right, we can't we we can extend it to 40 years.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Uh you know, I I'll be loyal to my mentor just as Leslie is uh understandably loyal to hers. Uh I wrote a piece it's a year or two back now on Bill Ritter, on Bill Ritter's governorship. I think I called it Colorado's Overlook Governor or words to that effect. And I largely agree. I think uh Governor Ritter had the misfortune of governing during some very tough economic times. As both of you know from being in the legislature, it's pretty service there is rather easy when you have a big growing economy, lots of tax revenues. It's a lot easier than when you're in a contracting time, and and Bill had to govern during a tough economic period and make some hard choices. Um I'm much more of a fan of Bill Ritter after the fact than maybe I sh should have sufficiently been uh during the time. I think Roy Roomer was an impactful governor. And I have to say, I mean, this state has only had one Republican governor in the last 50 years, which is a story in itself. And that was Bill Owens. And I think Bill Owens more than acquitted himself in that office uh on road issues, on charter school issues, and in taking on the right as it then existed, long before the Tea Party, before Donald Trump, over what was then known as referendum C and Owens' final year in office to inject some more necessary money into state coffers.

SPEAKER_04 32:00

Yeah. So your most recent, or not most recent column, but the column you most recently took from behind the paywall is about how the Republicans The dreaded paywall.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:10

It's about how the Republic the Colorado needs two parties and how the Republican Party needs to come back as a sane party uh in order for there to be any hope, I think, of uh of of of progress when it comes to them making uh inroads in any of these statewide seats or or whatnot, or even having a real influence on Colorado policy. Um as you know, my colleague right here, Cole, was uh also shunned from the party a bit before the Trump uh administration, but th during the last um the lecture.

SPEAKER_02 32:38

I quit before they threw me out.

SPEAKER_04 32:40

But but honestly, you were one of the sane ones, you know, and someone who's saying that. Yeah, who wanted to have real conversation and uh who was willing to stand up for what was right, but also just like have conversations across the aisle. It's not happening anymore. So, what do you think the Republican Party needs to do to make that comeback? And is that in the foreseeable future?

SPEAKER_00 32:58

That is the question. I think we'll find out some of that, not all of it. Some of it, well, there are two events happening very quickly. We're taping this on a Thursday, I don't know when it's gonna be released. On Saturday, the Republicans, two days from now, will elect a new state party chair. Uh, by all indications, that could be a gentleman named Joel Oldman. As I've commented, uh if you were to do a list, six million Coloradans, if you were to do a list of the most repugnant dozen out of that six million, you might put Joel Oldman on that list. I mean, this is someone who has called for the execution, I'm not exaggerating here, the execution by hanging of in order Jared Polis, Phil Weiser, Jenna Griswold, and Dan Rubinstein, the district attorney in Mesa County, who Cole mentioned earlier. First of all, what all they all have in common, they're all of a certain religious faith. Uh most people at least try to master anti-Semitism. Most of them at least try to master anti-Semitism a little more than that.

SPEAKER_04 34:00

Right in your face.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

Um and I can't say enough about Joel Ollman and the fact that he would even be considered for a post like that, much less may well win it, speaks volumes. Then we'll have a primary uh uh a month from now where you have two candidates from completely wacky land, Victor Marks and Scott Bottoms. Yeah. For the governorship. For the governorship for the governorship on the Republican side, and you have Barbara Kirkmeyer, who I think both of you have served with uh during legislative times, who I regard, don't know that well, but uh she's smart, she's well motivated, whether you agree with her or not. She does her homework, uh, she knows the ins and outs of state government, etc. She's she checks every box of qualifications, even if you don't agree with her on a lot of issues. And it is not a given that Kirk Meyer will win that primary. I think if Kirk Meyer does win that primary, even though the odds would be stacked against her in November, at least it would be a sign that the party has some light, has a brain. There are too many in that party who think uh party politics is an exercise in subtraction, who we can exclude. And we've all been around politics to know long enough to know, no, politics is ultimately about addition. You don't win elections by subtraction, you win elections by addition. Look what they're trying to do with primary elections. They're trying to, you know, get a court ruling or what have you to boot all unaffiliated voters out of being able to participate in the Republican primary. Well, I'm unaffiliated, I guess you are now as well, Cole. Uh 51% of the state, and I think it's now north of 51, going on 52% of the state is registered unaffiliated. You know, you want to give the raised middle finger to 51% of Coloradans? Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 35:51

Well, I so where uh where do you see um our two-party system going? And I I've had my frustration with both parties. I've been active on things like rank choice voting, which I think could create some opportunities for more moderate candidates to to win elections. But what do we need to do to change the two-party stranglehold on our politics, which seems to be driving the most extreme candidates coming out of both parties, which isn't producing the best policy for our state? Do you do you agree with that statement?

SPEAKER_00 36:24

I agree with it, quote unquote. It's sort of my mission. If I have a mission in life, if there's, you know, I write columns about different topics, but if there's sort of a constant thread to the topic, it's how do we make our democ uh uh democracy work better than it's working right now? Because I don't think anyone would argue that it's working very well. Um I've also been a fan of ranked choice voting. Uh I supported, I forget the number of the ballot measure a year ago, two years ago, but I was a supporter of it. It may have been a little too complex, it may have been a little too much to bite off. Um I'm intrigued with a California-style jungle primary where everyone runs in one primary election and then the top two finishers, regardless of party, face off in November. So you take a Democratic district like Denver, Congressional District 1, the long time to get district. The odds are, I mean, that's a Democratic district, it ought to be represented by a Democrat. But the odds are in November you would get a choice between two Democrats, one maybe out of the very progressive lane, and one a little more out of the centrist lane. And so therefore, unaffiliated and Republicans in Denver, and there are some of them, would be able to weigh in in favor of the less polarized Democrat. You take a Republican district, the Boebert district, for example. That's a district that is going to be and should be represented by a Republican. But you might have an opportunity for Democrats and unaffiliated there to pick a less polarizing Republican.

SPEAKER_04 37:57

Yeah, I think that's interesting. And I think that could be conceding, though, the fact that there's not going to be a real two-party race, right, in in the areas or statewide. But we would love to have you back on to talk about that. Uh where this is all the time that we have today, but I think having a conversation after the primary about ways that we can run our elections differently will be really interesting. We'll hopefully have a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 38:17

Love talking about this stuff. Hats off the two of you for doing the podcast.

SPEAKER_04 38:22

Thank you so much. Thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_00 38:24

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

That's Eric. Um we'll be right back to talk about what's bugging us this week.

SPEAKER_04 38:31

Okay. Thank you so much to Eric Sonerman for being here today. And we did agree to have coffee after our conversation today. So I think we're gonna I'm gonna take him up on that and we're gonna we're gonna figure this out.

SPEAKER_02 38:47

But we didn't we didn't hug it out afterwards, so we didn't handshake it out.

SPEAKER_04 38:50

Okay, that's something that's progress. That's progress. And now we are gonna hear from one of our listeners in our what's bugging you feed.

SPEAKER_03 38:59

All right, um, what's bugging me? The thing that's bugging me is uh the airport like I'm not allowed. I used to be a TSO worker and how they treat the officers who are going through, you know, working without polling, you know, starting with the window people change the policy, trying to catch people up doing wrong and call. Um, more of the people without polling out of power, or another thing with other folks, I don't want to go over towards the workers and what we're going to do about the poll. You know it, completely understand the forthcoming process, and then wondering like you know, I've got for a complete different thing. Um, that's the thing that's working right now.

SPEAKER_04 39:48

Well, that's real, you know. I know that he was a TSA worker, and so having, you know, kind of that real life experience is really interesting because you know, we both travel a lot and we saw what TSA was going through when it comes to the stress of the airports and really just how governments workers are being treated in general. And I think he brings up a really good point, which is you can't have armed guards standing over you while you do your job without any training on that, right? I find that to be so like it's just so disrespectful of the folks who are really doing the job, doing the work.

SPEAKER_02 40:19

I mean, it's it's stressful enough traveling anyway. So kind of like with healthcare workers, people that are on the front line dealing with people sometimes not in the most flattering of circumstances, and you're you're stressed when you're when you're traveling. Um but the extraordinary uh service that these folks provide does sort of lead me to a related issue to to what's happening travel-wise, and that potentially more stress at airports created by these threats to not have um customs open in so-called sanctuary city or Denver, one of them. Yeah, where do you think that might go?

SPEAKER_04 41:02

Well, I think this is this is the the wildness of this administration, is we don't know. So the TSA drama happened for, you know, a couple of weeks and caused mass chaos across cities, across this country, and people couldn't travel and they were waiting in line for hours, missing their flights out of, you know, New Orleans and and all of this, and then now we have this threat of not having customs open in our airports. And I don't understand from my perspective, and I and from my perspective, how these big airline executives, who I'm gonna assume some of them were Trump supporters, are allowing this to happen. Because how are you gonna shut down routes? Denver is one of the most busiest airports in the world, not just in the country, in the world. And you're gonna say that those international routes can't come through uh Denver. We can't have customs in Denver and in all the sanctuary cities, which is quite frankly where all the major airports are in this country. Um it's chaos, it's mass chaos, it's it's it's it's horrible for our economy, it's horrible for travel. Um I don't understand how people are okay with it.

SPEAKER_02 42:02

And to our listeners' point, it's the government workers um that end up catching the brunt. They're they're on the front line of all of this, receiving uh all of the frustration and they weren't even getting paid for a while. I think that's a good thing. Which was outrageous. Okay, we expect these people to come perform a difficult job, a very stressful job. A job, frankly, that they have to get right. Think about uh what happens if if TSA doesn't do their job and somebody gets onto an airplane with a weapon. So very important work and a horrible expression of our values as a country that we said to these people, uh, we want you to show up for work, but we're not gonna pay you.

SPEAKER_04 42:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:46

I thought it was appalling.

SPEAKER_04 42:47

Yeah, I agree. And it it also makes me think of government workers in general. I mean, we have we've seen all the doging that happened where government employees just lost their jobs, carte blanche, and then you know, people worried about losing their job. I mean, people are who are our government workers are just not being treated with a lot of respect. And, you know, as someone who comes from a military family, but also knowing that, you know, we have a overrepresentation of people of color who are government employees still to this day because it used to be a stable job that you could take care of your family, you could get benefits, you could work for 20 years. It's peop it's just not the same anymore. And quite frankly, I think that is so again, it's a problem for our country when folks can't feel proud to work for our own government.

SPEAKER_02 43:26

Well, I I think it's gonna be interesting to watch what happens in the next administration, uh, whether it be a Republican or Democrat. You know, and you and I may not agree with um w whether or not we need government to be the size that it is, and certainly I think that there are ways for us to make government more efficient and for our government to be uh better stewards of of taxpayer money. But at the end of the day, if someone is willing to step up to serve our country, to to work in the government, they deserve to be paired up. Paid a fair wage. They deserve to have good benefits. They deserve to be paid on time and they deserve to be treated with respect. And this current administration has not done that for government workers. So my hats off to those men and women in military service, folks that working in government positions, people that are prosecutors, people that work in our court system. My hats off to those folks who continue to show up day after day and do the fundamental work that's necessary for our country to continue to go on.

SPEAKER_04 44:34

I agree. I agree. So thank you to all of them that are doing this work. And but one positive thing I will say uh about this airline travel uh chaos and the the chaos at the airports is Denver just announced we're gonna have walkways in between the terminals. Well it took them so long. It took the train breaking down like every other week in order for them to realize that the tunnels shouldn't just be for the lum Illuminati, but actually should be for people to watch the thing. Yeah, you know. You know the Lucifer has it has a say in what goes on in the tunnels.

SPEAKER_02 45:05

Did you get a tour there? I haven't been down there yet.

SPEAKER_04 45:07

Oh, okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:08

All right.

SPEAKER_04 45:08

I can't tell you much more.

SPEAKER_02 45:09

So do you watch the show Paradise?

SPEAKER_04 45:11

Not yet.

SPEAKER_02 45:12

Okay. Well I need to. They're at the end of the last season, uh, we're stumbling into uh DIA where the supercomputer is. Really? So yeah, maybe that's what's down there. It is.

SPEAKER_04 45:25

Yeah I believe it wholeheartedly. You know, I th the the the theories about what's happening at DIA is very real. I used to be on the art commission for the city of Denver, and one of our one of the things that we had to oversee was Blucifer. Is that your fault? I think it's the blue Mustang. I didn't bring him, but I would did oversee his uh, let's just say his polishing up of certain parts and uh heard all of the stories of him killing his uh, you know, the the person who made him, and I know the power of Blucifer.

SPEAKER_02 45:52

Horrible. Yes, it's horrible. Sorry.

SPEAKER_04 45:54

Yes, yes. Um, and so I do know that Blucifer has uh a reputation that I believe is quite real, and so follow the rules, follow the signs, stay on the path.

SPEAKER_02 46:03

Uh I I do, you know, on in all seriousness though, um kudos to Federico Pena for having the vision. I know we all joke about DIA and how far it is away, but think about what a jewel it is for our city that we have this uh this airport that continues to attract business that become it's becoming um you know such an important hub for so many carriers and the number of people that just go in and out of that airport on a daily basis is staggering. So, you know, props to Federico Pena for really having the vision to to plant that flag and to make Denver uh an important aviation city.

SPEAKER_04 46:41

I agree, and it does bug me when I hear the hate on DIA because I think it's one of the best airports in the country, if not the world.

SPEAKER_02 46:48

They're gonna get Pena Boulevard fixed, though?

SPEAKER_04 46:50

Uh probably not. Like, what does fixed mean? Expansion? I mean, we know we can disagree on the expansion of the roads, too. I mean, I don't know if that's helpful at all, but I do think that fixing the trains will be one thing, and I and I do like the train to the plane.

SPEAKER_02 47:02

So how long is it gonna take the walkways to get built?

SPEAKER_04 47:05

Probably 20 years.

SPEAKER_02 47:07

Well, we have that to look forward to. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 47:10

Well, that's all the time that we have today. Thank you so much to my co-host Colwiss. It's always good to be with you. Uh, thanks to the listeners for listening and watching, and thank you to our crew here. We got Julie Jackson back uh uh as our director and producer, Jameson also uh working hard back there, and just want to say thanks to everyone for listening. It's because of you that we can keep having these conversations. So keep up, like, share, and listen wherever you can.

SPEAKER_02 47:36

Uh couldn't agree more, and and Leslie, it's always a pleasure to be with you and and to all of our listeners, keep tuning in, let us uh hear from you. Uh we uh want this to be an interesting conversation, week in and week out. So if we're ever failing you, let us know. Uh remember, friends, politics is personal, so keep talking.

SPEAKER_04 47:58

Thank you so much for listening. Politics is personal, it's hosted by Leslie Harrod and Cole West. This episode featured Eric Saunderman and was directed by Julie Jackson, edited by James Johnson. Produced by Leslie Harrod, Cole West, Ian Silveri, and Julie Jackson. Special thanks to Holly Wisp and our listeners for swimming in What's the name? Music by JKK. And follow us on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, YouTube, and any site you get your podcast at Politics First of all with Leslie and Cole. Recorded at Denver Community Media All Right River.