EP 12: Poop + Parasites, Election Interference, BBQ Sauce & Water Crisis with James Eklund

Is the political summer heat getting to be a bit much? Hosts Leslie Herod and Cole Wist break down the wildest national headlines, local controversies, and critical issues shaping our world this week.

First, Leslie and Cole dissect Donald Trump’s late-night address, its claims of election interference, and the ongoing fallout over former Mesa County Clerk Tina Peters. Then, they pivot to a stomach-churning food safety scandal: a massive multi-state parasite outbreak impacting our produce, and question how federal regulatory failures and corporate donor ties might be leaving consumers in the dark.

Finally, we’re joined by James Eklund, leading water rights attorney (Taft Law Firm) and former Director of the Colorado Water Conservation Board. James breaks down the high-stakes drama surrounding the Colorado River Compact. From the Continental Divide to Taiwan Semiconductor's massive water demands in Phoenix, James explains why Western water law impacts everyone, and why the clock is ticking on federal intervention.

Plus, stick around for our "What's Bugging Us" segment featuring Soul Food Scholar Adrian Miller dropping hot takes on barbecue sauce!

Don't forget to LIKE, COMMENT, and SUBSCRIBE!

"Politics is Personal, so keep talking!"

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Welcome back to Politics. It's Personal with Leslie and Cole. I'm Leslie Harrod.

SPEAKER_02 0:07

And I'm Cole West. What's happening in the uh how are you, Leslie?

SPEAKER_00 0:10

I'm good. How are you? You beat the teeth?

SPEAKER_02 0:12

Yeah, uh we're gonna get into some fun stuff today. Yeah. Uh election interference, that crazy speech from Donald Trump last week. Uh what what I'm probably gonna call the pooping disease, but uh what the federal government's doing about that. And we're gonna talk about the all uh important topic of water.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Exactly. It's gonna be a really good episode. Well, it is good to be back with you this week. I swear I thought I was gonna pass out a couple times, even just getting here with our 100 degree heat. It's been a little bit wild, but also really heated uh this past week was Trump in his address to the nation. Did you watch this?

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Uh I watched it for about three minutes.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

What channel did he do?

SPEAKER_02 0:50

Well, I had to search. I had to search. I finally found, let's see, I I tried NBC, I tried MS Now, I think I finally, you know, I finally found it on Fox News. Yeah. But even Fox News, I think, cut away at some point.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Uh it was a it was an incredibly outrageous speech. It was misleading, it was gaslighting of the worst kind. Because look, for as long as we've had uh we've collected intelligence, we've known that foreign governments have tried to interfere in our elections, but to to to make the leap, and he did it in a very irresponsible way, to say that foreign governments are trying to interfere in our elections, and then to insinuate that our election systems are broken, when in fact we know uh even from the only the his outside guy who's looking at this and in a slip after the speech, I don't know if you saw that, he basically said, yeah, this hasn't affected the outcome of any elections. Right. Right. Right. So it I I think he's clearly laying the groundwork for some spectacular attempts to obstruct the outcome of the election this year. And I think if folks vote in such overwhelming numbers, it won't work. But I am worried about what he's gonna do.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Yeah, I agree. I watched the speech and I thought, quite frankly, that this was another time where it's our president is a madman. Let me just be really clear. He is literally insane. And I uh didn't mean to turn it on, but I did turn it on. And then uh and it was on uh one of the network channels, and it was so interesting because I knew I I started to read through, you know, obviously my feed and everything, and folks who were not covering it and why. And even the channel that chose to cover it cut him off um before the end because it was so outrageous what what he was saying that they felt a responsibility, you could tell, to step in and say that these things are just uh absolutely not true. Um we have looked into election interference since this big lie uh started and was spread, and we know that it doesn't happen or it hasn't impacted the outcome of our elections. Um and yes, we know that there is that voting data is public, that is something that we know. But for him to cast such a light on certain states or counties that actually hand count their ballots and that take, you know, a month to finalize the election like that is bad or problematic, to me uh is truly undermining the entire system. And I do think that we should be worried about the state of our democracy right now when we have a president willing to go on national TV and lay the groundwork for election interference.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

And who is the president who has relaxed our super or our regulation or or our intelligence over election interference by foreign governments? Donald Trump.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Yeah, and why would why why is it, Cole, that this this entire big lie only affects the fact that did Donald Trump win the win win an election that he lost, right? But in in other areas, other states, other, you know, governors who were Republican that won in those same states or other state house race or state house races, state senate races that went the way that they wanted it to, there was no election interference there. It makes absolutely no sense. So so basically what what what he's saying is that the election was stolen from him for Biden, but then we just decided, man, for Kamala, let's just let Trump have it this time. Like let's just let him have it.

unknown 4:02

What sense?

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Isn't it interesting that so he says in 2016 it was a fair election because he won? And if you you let's say you adopt his premise that the president has some can has some ability to control the election. Yeah. Barack Obama was president. So Barack Obama apparently can run a safe election. Um and in 2024, when Trump was elected that year, we had Joe Biden as president. So apparently Joe Biden can run a fair election. Right. So the only year in which it was stolen was the year that Donald Trump was president.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

That's wild. You're right. I didn't even I have not even thought of it that way. That is wild.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

So uh maybe check at at the way you have regulated elections. Yeah. And uh it just and and less and less people, frankly, Leslie are buying this, and we all know what he's up to. He's trying to sow doubt, he's trying to to prepare us for the inevitable the election was stolen after the Republicans get their butts handed to them in November. And I think by all accounts, we all know it's coming.

SPEAKER_03 5:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

Right? Yeah. But but will his and probably less important than what Donald Trump's gonna do, uh, and that is what are his allies in states gonna do? Yeah. What are what are his allies in the U.S. House of Representatives going to do? Is Mike Johnson Johnson gonna try to block the Democrats from being sworn in and taking the majority in the House? Then our democracy is in a very, very weird place.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

I agree. And you're gonna love this question. So what did you think about his best friend by his side, Tina Peters, out there for this speech?

SPEAKER_02 5:36

Every time I have since since Jared Polis commuted Tina Peters' sentence, and we were told that she was really sorry for what she did. Um I think we continue to get reminders that Tina Peters was never sorry.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

Right.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

And this was a colossal mistake by Jared Jared Polis. Jared Polis will have to live with this decision for the rest of his life because it was a colossal mistake. Tina Peters is absolutely unrepentant. She's out there making money on the speaking circuit, talking about this nonsense. And I I am still very upset about Jared Polis making that decision.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Yeah, I think, you know, I think it's it just makes Colorado look really bad. And the in the in the midst of this election interference conversation to have Tina Peters there, quite frankly, Colorado's elections are the best run in this in the country, and I will say that with pride, uh, you know, as a Coloradan. Um I I love our election system. We have mail ballots, we have in-person voting, um, we have checks, our it's county run, you know. Um, and I think our our county, our county uh election officials, both Democrats and Republicans, do a great job at ensuring that every vote is counted uh and that every election is accurate. And so to sh to to tout out a Colorado like Tina Peters um as someone who is believing this big lie and is a part of the cult of Trump, you know, um, it is embarrassing, quite frankly. And I wish I could say that uh we had nothing to do with it or that Jared Polis had nothing to do with it, but here we are.

SPEAKER_02 7:03

So before we move off of elections, there was something interesting that that popped up in my feed yesterday, and that and that is it happened in New Jersey, because I'm not sure if you saw this story where the the state of New Jersey had a system set up where if you got a driver's license, you were automatically registered to vote. So we had some people who weren't uh citizens who had gotten driver's licenses, who were then registered to vote. The governor of of of New Jersey, Governor Sherrill uh announced the the state's uh prompt response to this and to make sure that those folks are taken off the voting rolls. But it's little things like that that I think are gonna continue to be brought up by Donald Trump to show how our election system is broken. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Um, and there's no evidence that those people either voted.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

No, you know, or that it changed the outcome of any election.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Exactly, exactly. Um yeah, I did see that in New Jersey, and I'm glad she stepped up and said this is what happened. You know, people and and there's no fraud even. Uh people did mark that they were not eligible to vote. Um, the system put it in place in some different kind of way. She saw it, made sure that it was rectified and that there was a a thorough audit of the system, and of course, there was no change in the outcomes. And so you're right, these little things are gonna make these folks who are part of the the cult of Trump believe that what he is saying is true, and it only takes these little pieces, these little slivers of information that really will undermine the entire system for them. But hopefully the majority of Americans will, vast majority of Americans not only will continue to disbelieve it, but will step up when the midterms come around and say you are not interfering with this election, and we will push back against the Trump administration trying to rig an election in their favor. And that's really what's happening. You know, this again is is is another step towards tyranny. Um, we know that. We know we we've we've read the history books, we know how um tyranny works and we're we're literally there. Uh, and so we have to continue to remain diligent. The one thing I will say before we move on is that we are we do have to continue to have this conversation out loud because majority of my even politically engaged friends were absolutely not watching that speech, absolutely are sick of hearing what he has to say, and have stopped reading the tea leaves, maybe because they think it's coming regardless, um, but are just not paying attention to some of these details that we need to. Um, and I think that we need to continue to talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

Could not agree more.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

Yeah. So let's talk about poop. Okay, as my mom says, uh, how's your poo poo these days?

SPEAKER_02 9:26

Uh better than some other people in this country. Let's let's just say that.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Well, Colorado is one of the many states that has been affected by the cyclosophoria.

SPEAKER_02 9:35

Have you been through your refrigerator lately to see if you've found found any of the bad stuff?

SPEAKER_00 9:40

So here's the problem. First of all, thankfully, I do not do bagged lettuce. I never have. I'm not a Taylor Tyler farm type of person. Um uh and so that is a good thing. But quite frankly, because folks say we don't know where it's coming from, I did have to get rid of all of the lettuce, all of the herbs and stuff that I typically cook with cilantro. You know, I mean, come on, like how can we not have cilantro in our diet? I don't know if you're a soap cilantro person, but I love it.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

We have our own little plan outside.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Oh, see, I did come over and get some cilantro then because I can't make it. But I also heard this really good uh take from some of our local farmers too, saying, you know, this is why you have to strop up farmers markets, like this disease um or this, this, this parasite is being spread because of inhumane conditions um that are being placed upon the workforce um and uh and on these on these on these farms, and we really need to take a look at that. Now, um, there was so much controversy because the FDA said that that uh the Taylor farms actually were the ones that were the reason for this outbreak. As you know, Taco Bell then also pulled um pulled some of their ingredients from the shelves uh from their drive-throughs, which uh was really interesting because Taco Bell leading the conversation on diarrhea to me is just hilarious. Um but they took they took seriously their charge and they took action. And then the FDA stepped back and said, no, it wasn't them, we can't pinpoint it. And I think that was about the time that uh folks on my feed realized that this actual farm, this business, this corporation, this entity had given the Trump pack one million dollars in the last cycle. Um, and and it and it starts to reek of, you know, um of uh of the Trump administration once again and their corruption, um, trying to protect their friends, uh their allies, and saying, well, maybe it's not coming from there, we can't figure it out. And and and final point on this. This is the largest outbreak that we've seen in recorded history. Right. Um, but there's from one from a single source, and from what they're saying is um, you know, I think the conversation is has the FDA reversed course on on one, pinpointing where uh the parasite is exactly coming from, um because of and with the knowledge that Taylor Farms has been a huge Trump uh supporter and has given the PAC a million dollars. Um, and what would that do to their business and possibly their future um support of the Trump administration? Additionally, they had given the million dollars right around the same time that the Trump administration decided that they were not going to do the same type of uh testing and being able to pinpoint exactly where these outbreaks are coming from. Um and so that's the situation we sit in now where the FDA is completely um handicapped in how they're able to protect us as citizens and our food sources, um, and not able to really get to the bottom of this parasite. And it is causing and wreaking havoc on people and their intestines right now because it is a long, it is a long cycle type parasite that is affecting people about two weeks after um after they eat the contaminated food and then they are sick for three weeks, a month, even longer with with GI uh impacts. And so it's a serious thing that's happening. It does make us very worried about our food sources. It makes us hopefully, you know, question a lot about where our food is coming from and why we are not shopping and eating more locally. Uh, and I think some of the biggest, biggest, biggest issues that that we have is also, you know, these workplace conditions that I have constantly seen migrant workers, farm workers really fighting for really, really do matter. Um, and it does impact uh the the the quality, but also the safety of our food.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

Um it's an uncomfortable topic, right? Um but it's an important one from a number uh from a number of perspectives. First of all, it underscores how dysfunctional our federal government is right now to manage a major health crisis. I'm not seeing a whole lot of leadership in my feed in terms of of educational pieces that are coming out from the federal government or or clear guidance from the federal government in terms of how they're working on this problem. So that's that's one thing. Secondly, for the most part, GI issues are not going to be life-threatening. But for certain people with certain health conditions, for the elderly, um, these could be very serious, uh there could be very serious consequences from from having these types of GI um effects. So um I I just think it's it's something that perhaps is uncomfortable, but a reminder for us that when we uh essentially dismantle our health regulation structure in the Federal Government, it has real world c're real world consequences, and that is when we have a crisis like this, um we don't have any leadership.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Yeah. Yeah. Shitty ass administration can lead to really bad digestion issues.

SPEAKER_02 14:35

Since you brought I I'm dying to ask you, since you brought up Taco Bell, when is the last time you went to Taco Bell?

SPEAKER_00 14:40

I am not a Taco Bell fan. I never have been, being a girl who grew up on military bases. We did not have Taco Bell. Um, and also my family cooks really well. And so I will say that I am not a Taco Bell person, and I did go once because I've had friends talk about it. Once recently, I'm sorry, I've been more times in my life, but I've had friends talk about it. Uh, and so I went back uh probably six months ago, seven months ago, and I gotta tell you, uh it was it was a bad outcome. Did that not go in? It was a bad outcome. It was after a night of of going out and hanging out thinking, oh, I'll stop there on the way home. It was it was not the best decision on my part.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

How about you?

SPEAKER_02 15:14

Um, it's been a while. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you gotta be uh for me, I've gotta be really desperate uh to go to Taco Bell, but there are usually some other choices that I probably do before Taco Bell.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

I agree, I agree. Well, anyways.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

Well we we uh we have a great guest coming up next. James Eklund will be with us to talk about water policy. So come on back. Welcome back to Politics is Personal. I'm pleased to welcome to the show today a longtime friend and somebody that if I ever have a question about water, I know exactly who I'm gonna call, and it's James Eklund. So, James, welcome to Politics is Personal. You say that to all the water lawyers that come up here. No, that's not true. That's that's not true. It's great to be with you both. Yeah. Uh so we have been talking a lot uh since we started our show a couple of months ago uh about water issues, and I've been dying to have this conversation with you because I think there's so much that people don't understand uh about water, and I I think and and people tend to think, well, water law is complicated, which it is. Um, but there's some simple and straightforward things that everyone needs to understand. So before we get into that, you have a really interesting career. You've worked in politics, you've worked in policy, you've worked as an attorney. Um I'd just like to give you the floor, James, to introduce yourself to our audience and and tell them what you'd like them to know about James.

SPEAKER_04 16:43

Sure. Well, thanks again for having me. And this is the type of uh engagement and uh discussion that I'm really thankful you guys are hosting on not just obviously the water topic, but all the the topics you cover on the show. Um we are better off when you do this kind of thing. And water is one of those arcane, uh sometimes uh viewed as arc archaic uh um topics that people kind of go, oh gosh, uh they treat water like I treat healthcare. I don't care to know anything about the policy, I just want to show up to the doctor and and get my issue resolved. And I think most people view water the same way. They turn the faucet on and they want the water to come out and uh that's understandable because it does get complicated really quickly. My profession, or our our profession, the w water law profession, has done its darndest to make it feel like you need to be a water lawyer in order to stand in order to understand water in Colorado, and that's just not true, and it's uh a myth that I hope to hopefully make a uh a run at taking a swipe at on this show with the time I've got with you. So water, uh my background is um uh special.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

First start with the outfit.

SPEAKER_04 18:06

Yeah, oh okay, yeah. Uh the outfit. Yeah, you see you you wear uh your uh your straw hat, Memorial Day Labor Day. Okay. Uh and um uh that that's the season, it's kind of like seersucker. And then in the winter months, you wear your felt hat. So you've got me in my straw today, which is good because it's so hot. And we'll talk about that. Yeah. And when it gets this hot, uh it does really nasty things to our snowpack, and we'll talk about that, I'm sure. Yeah. But the yeah, the background for me, um, coming from the western slope, uh, was just over there. I kind of split my time between Denver and the Western Slope, the Plateau Valley, north side of Grand Mesa. If your listeners are familiar with uh Western Slope. And uh my great-great-grandparents homesteaded there from Norway in 1888. And so we are uh fortunate to get to be stewards of land that was going back before that, uh was the the home of the Ute peoples on in Colorado. So we uh are reminded every day, or remind ourselves every day, uh how fortunate we are to be on that land and be stewards of the land in the water uh that that we're you know taking care of for a very small sliver of time. So um that's where I started, that's what got me interested in water. I told my grandfather I was gonna go to law school and he said that's a terrible idea. And uh and uh he said, Well, if you're yeah, I said, I'm I'm committed, I'm gonna do it. And he said, Well, if you're gonna do it, at least you know, do learn something practically helpful, and that's water law. And so I went and followed that direction and and did that. And then uh I got to work for Ken Salazar when he was attorney general. And uh as as Ken does often with people, uh he brought me into his orbit and uh I became an acolyte, so to speak, and we uh I I volunteered for his re-election campaign and wasn't qualified to do anything, so I was his driver. Yeah. So I got to I got to do that, and it was a great job because cell phone technology was really bad back then, so you couldn't dial for dollars, which you have to do now if you're running for office.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

Yeah. Um back then you had the big pack and the yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:29

Now yeah, back then it was like you either talked to me or you slept. Yeah. And and he talked to me. He's a gregarious guy, as you know. Yeah. So um, so yeah, I I got uh exposure uh to him, and then he gave me a lot of advice that I tried to follow pretty much to the letter, and uh that was get into Waterlot. Sounds like that's a you know a place where you can do some good and and exercise a passion for being a fifth generation Coloradan. And then uh if you ever get a chance to be legal counsel to a governor, do that job because you get to work on whatever shows up on the cover of back then. It was Rocky Mountain News with Denver Post. Right. And um and then he said, and his last piece of advice was don't leave the state government until you've gotten some managerial expertise because when you're in the private sector of law anyway, it's hard to get hard to get that. So uh that's what I did. I I I got to work in the AG's office uh on water law issues. I moved over, was in the legal counsel shop for Hickenlooper and Governor Hickenlooper in his uh first term and then uh pretty quickly moved over after writing the executive order calling for the state's first water plan. Oh yeah that the governor signed and then said, you know, go make sure this happens. So that's that's uh the the next step in my journey was to uh lead the state water agency, the Colorado Water Conservation Board in developing our state's first water plan. Um And that was just an unbelievably rewarding experience. It was the largest civic engagement process in state history. I think it still holds that title because each of the basin roundtables in each of the river basins in our state participated in developing their own version of what the plan should be. And then it was our job here in Denver to harmonize all of those. And as you know, or may maybe don't, there are some really important lines when you get to water. I'm just jumping in on you. No, go, go, go, go.

SPEAKER_02 22:35

Before you do that, you know, and it's it's uh just to kind of set set the table a little bit. Um so the management of the Colorado River is uh a compact between seven states. There's also an international component because Mexico is involved. So you've got elected officials from seven states, uh the leaders of Mexico, who all have some stake in the management of this vital resource that's declining. And if you look at things like Lake Mead and Lake Powell, which are at record lows now, at to the point where we're not even sure whether or not we're gonna be able to utilize the dams for hydroelectric purposes. Um kind of tell us, you know, diagnose kind of where we are right now in terms of how that how this is working out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

What is the state of water in Colorado right now?

SPEAKER_04 23:27

Well, let me tie people together because they might be sitting here in Denver listening to the show and think, well, if this is they're rambling on and on about the Colorado River, that doesn't really matter to me. It does matter to you because of the line that bifurcates our state is the Continental Divide. And the Continental Divide means that everything on the western side of that line goes into the Colorado River system and ultimately makes its way to the Pacific. Uh everything on the eastern side of that line goes into the uh Gulf of Mexico, America, whatever you want to call it.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

We'll call it we call it Mexico. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:02

Uh uh through the Mississippi River system or the Rio Grande system. So we're eight, we're we're the headwaters for 18 downstream states in Mexico, in Colorado. So even though we're a relatively small population state, when it comes to water, we punch above our weight. So the Colorado River itself, uh, which is relevant to somebody sitting in Denver because half of Denver water's portfolio comes from the Colorado River. So if you fill up your glass at the tap in Denver, uh half of that is uh you know attributable to the Colorado River system. So it does matter to you, even though you may never go to the western slope or spend much time there. Uh what happens with our snowpack and those watersheds is incredibly important to you. And what happens in California and Arizona and Nevada, the downstream states, uh and the other upper basin states, uh Utah, Wyoming, and New Mexico, in addition to Colorado, those all all the water uh drama matters to you if you're sitting on the front range. So um so that's the first thing, a point that I want to make uh on the Colorado River question. The second is uh just bringing people up to speed in a real quick hurry here. We signed a compact in 1922 with the other six states and the federal government ratified it uh that apportioned the river, and it said there would be an upper basin and a lower basin, and it said the upper basin gets to use half of the consumptive use of the river, the lower basin basically gets to use half. And then we gave uh and negotiated with uh Mexico, the Republic of Mexico, in 1944 an uh international treaty that says that they get 1.5 million acre feet. Now your users, your your listeners are probably going, what the heck is an acre?

SPEAKER_03 25:46

It sounds like a lot.

SPEAKER_04 25:47

It sounds like a lot. It is a lot, it's because it is a lot. So if you go to where, you know, the Broncos pick your football team, plays on Sunday, go to that football field, chop off the end zones, just take the hundred yards in between the goal lines and fill that a foot high full of water. That's an acre foot of water. And that's enough for an average size, four average sized households can get by on that amount of water for a year. Okay. So that's a one acre foot of water is a lot. It's 325,000 gallons of water. So it's a lot of water. The uh compact said that we would have a seven and a half, we'd have we would be entitled in the upper basin states, that's us, again, us, Wyoming, Utah, and New Mexico, we would be entitled to seven and a half million acre feet of use every year. In the lower basin, the California, Arizona, and Nevada, would be entitled to seven and a half million acre feet. And then, like I said, the treaty with Mexico gave Mexico 1.5 million acre feet. So you do all that math, you add that all up, you've got 16.5 million acre feet, and everybody's happy if the river's that that big, that voluminous. The problem is that it's not. And so in 1922, they were playing with the data that they had, and it was it was an 18 to 20 million acre foot river on an annual basis. So you could cut them some slack for carving up that amount, you know, into 16.5 million acre feet, and then they they have provisions in the compact that allow the states to fight and squabble over surpluses on the river. Well, you flash forward to today, and we basically cut the river in half. It's a 10, and this year it's less than 8 million acre foot river. And that means that there's not enough for everybody to use the full apportionment that they were legally entitled to use back in 1922. That uh has given way to a series of interstate negotiations, Colorado uh being uh one of the parties, one of the six parties, and then if you count Mexico, you're up to eight uh seven states, uh two countries, thirty federally recognized Indian tribes are in this basin, and the federal government itself. And then you've got multiple industries. Um when we decided to onshore chip manufacturing into this country, which is a great idea, uh we uh uh also decided to headquarter the that apparatus in Phoenix. So Taiwan Semiconductor, TSMC's plant, is in Phoenix, which does two things uh on the water side of the equation. One is it it really makes uh that uh demand uninterruptible. You have to get, it's part of our national security apparatus at this point. So you have to make sure that water gets to certain uh parts of this basin, whether or not they have senior or junior status legally, uh, you know, that that's kind of beside the point. If you want your economy and some of the critical functions of the nation to go in on uninterrupted, you have to get the water to those places. So that's given uh that entire landscape has, as you can imagine, produced a lot of drama and consternation, negotiation that hasn't produced a uh seven-state plan. And it really needs to do that because uh if it doesn't, then the federal government has no choice but to step in and manage the river itself. And that is something that the upper basin states have long resisted. Uh, we've always wanted to protect and preserve the ability of these states to control and administer water at the state level. Uh the lower basin would love that too, uh, but they gave up that right when they sued each other back in the early 1900s uh after the compact was signed. Arizona sued California. It's a wonderful political story. You guys would get a real kick out of it. We don't have time to tell the entire thing, but it it's uh it's part of the history that resulted in uh the Secretary of the Interior being the water master in the lower part of the basin. It not's not so in the upper basin. We didn't sue each other, we behaved like adults up here. We uh did another compact. We did an upper basin compact in 1948, uh and that basically allowed us to preserve the administrative authority over water in in our states.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

So it's Colorado right now, Colorado and Utah are kind of on the same team then, and we we work to conserve, but with this drought now, um, are we concerned that there's not enough water for our state first before sending it down to the lower basin?

SPEAKER_04 30:31

Yeah, so Colorado, Utah, Wyoming, and New Mexico all have uh rivers that uh that generate headwaters that of flow that go into the system. Colorado is responsible for 70 percent of the flow of the Colorado River. So as a result, when we did the compact, uh both compacts, we are entitled to 51.75 percent of the water available for use in the upper basin in Colorado, which is awesome because it means that you know we we have a majority of the molecules uh we're entitled to use the majority of the molecules that originate here. However, we also uh are susceptible to anemic snowpack like we've had this year. And when it gets really bad like this, like it is right now, uh it's hot, windy, and dry, uh water goes from the solid state of matter, uh, which is snow or ice, and it uh sublimates and it goes straight to a gas and it skips the liquid stage of water, which is the one we need it to be in, uh, to irrigate our crops, to uh have water come out of our taps, to make sure the environment's taken care of. All of the things that make Colorado Colorado, from Coors beer to uh, you know, the the skiing in our mountains, all of that is predicated on a uh wisely managed water system. And it's incredibly difficult to do that when you're dealing with such scarcity.

SPEAKER_03 32:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:00

And the you know, the pressures are are evident.

SPEAKER_03 32:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

James, are you worried that if the states can't get along, if you will, and and put together a system that works for everyone? Uh you said that the federal government will then step in. Um and I'll just say it, I have my own personal reservations about how that's gonna go. Um is that gonna be a fair process? Are we worried that the federal government or the Trump administration is gonna play favorites? Colorado is obviously not one of Donald Trump's favorite places. We've rejected him three times, I think, on the ballot. So are you worried that those kinds of politics will enter into this whole discussion?

SPEAKER_04 32:36

I am, and the reason is that this is not something that we can just kind of punt, kick the can down the road on because the operations and management of this river were agreed to in 2007 to last for 20 years. And so if you do the math, that means that they expire under their own terms at the end of this year.

SPEAKER_03 32:56

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 32:57

And that means that whether you like who's in the White House or not, it is going to those decisions have to be made at the end of this year. So there's a clock running, and you know, there's no uh there's no extra time or injury time after the World Cup. I've I'm starting to learn the lingo of that sport. But the uh the the that is a very real possibility that if the states, in fact, it's a it's a necessary outcome, if the states can't get together and do a deal, even a st even a deal that they begrudgingly s sign off on because it wouldn't be the deal that any one of them individually would have written, if they fail to do that, uh the federal government has no choice but to step in and manage the system because Lake Powell and Lake Mead are our two lar our nation's two largest man-made reservoirs, and they will be managed as federal assets because they are and and they won't that will not be a process that's guided or led by the states as it has been in you know to date. Uh instead, it will be the federal government making those decisions, and like you said, uh we're at the whim of uh uh a White House that is uh has made no secret of its disdain for Colorado and some of the decisions we've made here. Um other states in the basin are also susceptible to that, California being the biggest one and also being the biggest using state uh entitled to 4.4 million acres.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

What would that actually look like?

SPEAKER_04 34:40

Among the states, so the the federal government has a lot of different levers that they can pull. They own uh on our behalf, I mean we are the people. So uh the federal government, when you're talking about them, uh they work for us. But the federal government has uh a a whole portfolio of assets in this basin that uh are that it manages and it uh funds and uh it authorizes. So the Bureau of Reclamation within the sec the Department of the Interior um manages a whole suite of reservoirs and uh infrastructure around the Colorado River basin. That's one place that they can go to the case.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

And like just turn it off or not let it, you know, not let Coloradans use it.

SPEAKER_04 35:32

Yeah, they could they can say these are federal water rates. Yeah. So the the great example uh because I know we're limited on time here, is the is the Gunnison River. Uh if you go over to Gunnison, you see the Blue Mesa Reservoir. It's a biggest reservoir in Colorado. And it's a system of three reservoirs, actually, the uh the aspinol unit. And that unit is a federal Bureau of Reclamation project with a federal Bureau of Reclamation water right that sits within our state administrative system, but it is owned by the federal government. So uh the order came down. There are three of these big reservoirs that sit up above Lake Powell. The Aspinall Unit in Colorado, the Flaming Gorge Unit, which sits between Utah and Wyoming, and then the Navajo reservoir that sits between Colorado and New Mexico. Those three big units uh sit up above PAL, and the federal government has this year, in fact, several of the last years, it has uh released water from those upper reservoirs down to Lake Powell to avoid the elevation of Lake Powell going below the the elevation necessary to create hydroelectric power. And that as a federal asset is something that the federal government does not want to s uh see fail. It's billions of dollars worth of federal infrastructure and it's it's in a way too big to fail. Um, or at least not without a lot of drastic, dramatic uh decisions that they'll they'll do almost anything they can to prevent that reservoir from going below minimum power pool, because a whole cascade of terrible things happens if you go below that elevation at that reservoir. You stop making hydroelectric power, which is clean and uh it's load following. So when people come home in July and turn on their air conditioning, you can you can ramp up the electric uh current to meet that demand by releasing water out of the reservoir. So that that's the first thing that happens. They sell that power to rural electric associations like Delta Montreal's Rural Electric Association over on the Western Slope. Uh they sell that power to them, and if they can't buy it from the Western Area Power Administration, which is a federal agency, then they have to go to the spot market and they have to buy it, and it's incredibly expensive. So you could see doubling, tripling, quadrupling of electric uh rates around the West at a time when uh people are using more to cool their their homes and maybe even using more in the agricultural community and economy, more power to move water because they need to to get it to where they need to put it on their crops to finish what uh what they've started. So that that whole dynamic just means that the uh the federal government has a lot of tools that they can use in in uh addressing the situation. Uh reservoir releases, water rights that they hold and manage. And the the state of Colorado, I mean, going all the way back to 1922, we have always protected and preserved our ability to call the shots and kind of control our own destiny on this. And giving that up because we can't get along with our other states uh would be a real uh uh crisis, real problem uh moving forward. And it's a bell that you kind of can't unring once you've done it.

SPEAKER_02 39:10

As we're sort of wrapping here, I um I want to give you the chance to crystal ball this. We're mid-2026 and we've got five months left on this very, very important issue. Um how do you see this going?

SPEAKER_04 39:22

Yeah, so the water year actually clicks over October 1st. So we have even less time than dire than we're right. So the crystal ball I have, um I'm an optimist, so it's not as bleak as other people's crystal ball might be. I think this is, you know, it's uh Winston Churchill never waste a good crisis, right? Uh this is a massive crisis, and it's also a massive opportunity for us to do something, uh a couple of things. One is value water more closely to what it actually means, uh, what the actual value of it is. Um and then the second is uh setting up programming that pays agriculture to conserve water. Right now there's a real disincentive uh on our ranch to conserve water because if we conserve it, meaning we leave it in the river to go down to Lake Powell and we don't divert it onto our fields, then that ends up hurting our historic consumptive use, which is really the value of our water right. Uh better if we had an incentive, a financial incentive, to leave that water in the river, not grow a crop, but be able to buy replacement feed and get through the year without having to liquidate our herd. Um, some people are having to do things like that, or parts of their herd uh in years like this. A program that would uh pay farmers and ranchers where the vast majority of the consumptive use in this basin exists to conserve water is a program that has been kind of looked at uh with a jaundiced eye by people in the past, and I I hear their concerns, but we we have to move forward with something like that, a policy like that.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

Federally funded or state funded?

SPEAKER_04 41:16

Federally and state funded. It's kind of one of those. You take the money from wherever you can get it, and uh even the private sector has a role to play in this in this entire drama because as we're having these conversations about data centers, they use water. They need to be able to, in order to secure the social license to operate, they need to buy down their water footprint. And this is a mechanism that would allow them to essentially buy into uh uh the solution for the Colorado River crisis. Wow. So there there are some real opportunities here, and that's what gives me a rosy, uh optimistic view of the of the uh crystal ball. But uh make no mistake, there are also some really nasty uh outcomes that that could come to pass if we if we, like I said, give away what we've long considered our birthright as a Western state, and uh you know, turn over the keys to the car to the federal government, and I don't think we ever get them back.

SPEAKER_00 42:19

Yeah. Well, I know we're about to be out of time. Um and and for this Denverite here whose family is sitting in in Pueblo, probably hopefully listening, um my last question is really just do these local conservation effort, water conservation efforts work? Should I water my lawn like Denver Water tells me to, or should I water more? Um and what are the conservation methods that actually work?

SPEAKER_04 42:44

Well, we all have a uh a great friend in Alan Salazar, and he will tell you, I I will say uh that we have to do what Alan asks us to do. We gotta we've gotta limit our watering as they have specified, or pay the fine, and hopefully they don't want to fine us. They really don't.

SPEAKER_00 43:03

But does it make a difference?

SPEAKER_04 43:04

How does my water like how does it make a difference if you're it really does make a difference because the volume isn't very much. I mean, we're not gonna solve the whole Colorado River crisis by taking shorter showers. But we will solve this problem if we're able to get our demands down to a level where we uh can control them. We can we can respond to a call by our water provider to use less and do more with less. Um you know, putting in water smart sprinklers and uh, you know, doing what you can on xerescaping and uh you know, moving the the needle on the in the urban environment makes it a lot more manageable for our water providers as they're trying to navigate this entire space and interstate feuding that's going on right now. It makes it really difficult if your demands are so firm and uninterruptible that you can't. You have no wiggle room. You have no buffer. Um so do what Denver Water, do what your water provider is asking you to do, whether you're at Pueblo Border Waterworks or Colorado Springs Utilities or Denver Aurora, Northern Water wherever you are. Listen to what your water provider is telling you to do and get engaged on this because this is your resource. As a Coloradan, you are the a steward and inheritor of this amazing system. And it starts in your snowpack. Like I said, 18 downstream states in Mexico get water that starts in your state. So when it comes down to the policy that dictates who gets to use what, how much, where, when, for what, you have a voice and use it. And uh with our state water plan, I I think we set up a mechanism to do just that.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

So conserve in the cities and the suburbs, and then really consider some of these subsidies to the farmers and ranchers that are really a part of our food chain, but also a part of our state here in Colorado as well. And then also dig into that water plan.

SPEAKER_04 45:04

Nailed it. You nailed it.

SPEAKER_00 45:07

All right. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show today. We really appreciate having you. We're probably gonna need to have you back though, because I know we only scratched the surface, and there is so much more to dive into that hopefully we can enough.

SPEAKER_02 45:19

She's been working, she'll be here all week.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

I've been working on this.

SPEAKER_03 45:21

I've been working on this one.

SPEAKER_02 45:24

So come right back. Uh we'll talk about what's bugging us this week.

SPEAKER_00 45:33

All right, well, welcome back. Uh, now we'll get into what's bugging us today. We have my dear friend Adrian Miller on to talk about what's bugging him.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

Hey, what's up? I'm Adrian Miller, the soul food scholar who drops knowledge like hot biscuits. I'm also a barbecue expert. And what's been bugging me is all these people going around saying that barbecue should not have soft. As an African American, speaking on behalf of all African Americans, I say, so African-American barbecue culture is just kind of understood that you know how to cook the meat and that you do it well. And your sauce is the signature. So it's not about hiding anything, it's about putting your stamp on that barbecue. So this heresy needs to stop peace. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

That feels so good. I mean, Adrian is so interesting, and he is always gonna talk about barbecue, which I love. I used to work with him in the governor's office. He was also a senior policy advisor for the Ritter administration, and just found out that he is helping to craft the dishes at the Stanley Hotel's new smokehouse that they will be having up in Estes Park. But I gotta tell you, don't give me any dry barbecue. What are you talking about? What is this what's going on here?

SPEAKER_02 46:41

Who would eat ribs without sauce?

SPEAKER_00 46:43

Yeah, yeah. Didn't you tell me that ribs were your favorite food groups?

SPEAKER_02 46:47

So, yes. And I I I have really, I think, perfected my ribs, take great pride in my ribs. We're gonna I'll I'll have you come over and you can tell me if they're any good. Say less. Um, but I couldn't imagine putting a rack of ribs on my family's table without sauce.

SPEAKER_00 47:02

I know, I know. And I think he's right, it is a signature. And so who's doing this? I have no idea, but he is a food historian. I know he's talk about food um right now in uh out of out of state. And the thing that I think is so wild is like I think it's someone who doesn't know how to make a good sauce, you know? I'm probably someone who took something out of a bottle, poured it on, and said that was it. Listen, we never do that in our culture, we don't do it in our household. Um, you make the sauce, you might doctor it up, might come from something initially, but you know, but I mean um and I would not dare have any dry barbecue. And so I'm grateful that you know not to serve dry barbecue. I think you also know not to put raisins in your potato salad. And so I will accept the invitation to come over for dinner.

SPEAKER_02 47:41

Raisins and potato. I didn't know that was a thing.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

It's a thing with your people. Um, but we can not my people.

SPEAKER_02 47:47

Well, not in my house. Good.

SPEAKER_00 47:49

I'm glad that's it.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

I'm not even I'm not an even a fan of raisins, period. Okay, good. Definitely not in my potato salad.

SPEAKER_00 47:55

Yeah, I think there's this whole lore, especially on my feed, and it does bug me that people want to put raisins in everything. But potato salad is a place that it never should be. And so I'm I'm glad we're on the same page about that.

SPEAKER_02 48:05

So when are we gonna go have barbecue? Maybe that's the thing.

SPEAKER_00 48:08

Hey, I'm down. That's the question. Call me, let's go this weekend.

SPEAKER_02 48:10

Okay, what's your go? What's your go-to?

SPEAKER_00 48:12

To go uh for a place to go for a side.

SPEAKER_02 48:14

Well, place and what's your favorite thing to order?

SPEAKER_00 48:17

Well, um, so my mom makes the best barbecue, I will say that. Uh, and so that is my favorite place to go. My go-to barbecue order always is a pulled pork sandwich to start with, and then we branch out from there. Um, and so that is that is what I always get. You okay?

SPEAKER_02 48:32

You okay with pickles on pulled pork?

SPEAKER_00 48:34

I am. Yeah, I'm okay with pickles, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:37

Um, I'm a brisket guy. And I and I love my ribs, obviously. We we talked about that, but I do love a really good brisket. A really good brisket is hard to do.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

Because of the slow smoking situation.

SPEAKER_02 48:47

And it's just you I have a Traeger, so it's pretty good about regulating the temperature, but it's hard to get it down right. So I'm still working on my brisket.

SPEAKER_00 48:55

All right. Well, I'm willing to come over and be the taste tester.

SPEAKER_02 48:58

Okay. I'm ready. So long as you don't talk about if you hate it, come back and talk about it on the show because I'm very sensitive.

SPEAKER_00 49:05

Okay, I will keep that in mind. I'm happy really bad in order for me to come back and tell you guys how terrible it is. But I I trust you would not have me over for bad barbecue. Um, but before we go, I want to talk about something a little bit more serious. Um, and that is uh the Nolan Wells case. I don't know if you've seen much about it, but um, you know, I am I will start by saying I'm someone who likes to watch these like kind of teenage angst TV shows and where these, you know, caught a group of like high school friends get together and something tragic happens and they they they have to keep that from people. Um and what we're seeing right now is that playing out in real life. It feels very much to me like there is much more to the story about Nolan Wells. Um, and I'm gonna say uh murder, uh, but we know it at least a death. This young man who was had so much promise, you know, wanted to play football, was really respected in his community, went out with a group of friends as the only black man in that group of friends, um, and and and was in the I guess the nicest way to say it if if if we were aren't ascribing any guilt would be that they left him to die. But the outcome was that he was he he was he was dead, right? And he is dead. Um the uh Crump has come, the Crump law law office has come in and uh is taking over as the legal counsel for the case. Um they have found that they when they did an independent autopsy, that all of the information has not been given to the family. Um there have been pieces that have been left out, uh including um harm possibly to his neck and other um injuries to his body. Um the friends erased all of their social media. I heard that uh right uh right that night basically. They erased all of their social media pretty immediately, which, you know, as if you know people today, young people, but adults, politicians, if you're scrubbing your social media, you're doing it for a reason. Uh and uh again, there's just much more uh about this case. And and I my my heart just really breaks for his family, for his mother in particular, who is getting all kinds of racist threats and and and things hurled at her. She lost her son, um, something that no one really no mother should ever experience. And we just need to bring more attention to this case and continue to talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

Yeah, well said, and you just hope that there's gonna be a complete, uh thorough and transparent investigation for this whole thing. Yeah, and but but God bless that family. What a horrible thing.

SPEAKER_00 51:22

Yeah, it's terrible. So well, thanks everybody so much for listening. Um, we really appreciate all of your support. Uh, our viewers, uh, our our our community here, the crew behind the scenes that makes all of this happen. None of this would happen without you all. So thank you so much. And don't forget to like and subscribe on all platforms.

SPEAKER_02 51:40

And remember, friends, politics is personal, so keep talking.

SPEAKER_00 51:44

Thank you so much for listening. Politics is personal is hosted by Leslie Herrod and Cole Whist. This episode was directed and edited by Julie Jackson and featured guests James Eklund, produced by Leslie Herri, Cole Whist, Ian Silveri, and Julie Jackson. Special thanks to Halle Wist and Jameson Johnson and Adrian Miller for What's Bugging Me. Music by JKK. And follow us on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, YouTube, and any site you get your podcast at politics personal with Leslie and Cole. Recorded at Denver Community Media, all rights reserved.