SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back to Politics is Personal with Leslie and Cole. I'm Leslie Harrod.

SPEAKER_01 0:03

And I'm Cole West.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

And this week, we're going to have a one-on-one segment talking about an issue that quite frankly is super controversial in most people's households and throughout the country, and that's guns.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Shouldn't be controversial. And frankly, when people hear the name coal whist in Colorado politics, usually they think about gun policy. So, you know, and and to your credit, Leslie, I mean, I I had a sort of a frustration with this after I left the legislature that it seemed, despite the fact that I had passed a bunch of bills and worked on a lot of different issues, the one thing that everybody wanted to talk to me about was the red flag uh bill that I ran in in 2018. So I look forward to having this conversation with you today. Certainly multifaceted and really, really fresh as we're still getting Supreme Court decisions about the Second Amendment.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Yeah, you know, I did tell you when we talked about the fact that everyone wanted to talk about guns, and for me, there's another issue that people want to talk about all the time. And I told you, like, this you gotta lean into it because it really is a part of your legacy. And I remember being in the legislature sitting next to you uh when you got the call that because of the red flag bill and and your uh sponsorship of it, um, that your house was under threat and that someone was basically threatening to harm you or your family, uh, and you had to rush out of the building. It was probably one of the first times that I had seen that happen in the legislature. We'd heard about threats like that, obviously nationally, but not really one so close to home. And I remember how much it impacted you, thinking about your wife, your daughters, you, um, and how you kept fighting through it, anyways.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Yeah, it was uh it was a tough time. Um and I think the hard thing about your your hard the hard thing for your family for any elected leader is you signed up for it. You put your name on the on the ballot, but your family certainly didn't sign didn't sign up for that. Um and you know, I mean you and I have both had people say nasty things about us and to us on social media. Um but you know, in the era of you gotta you gotta take every uh threat seriously. I had to turn over all that stuff to the Colorado State Patrol, they did an investigation, I had a police car outside of my house for three or four years.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Was it a real person?

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Uh yeah, there was a sheriff's deputy parked out down the street from my house, and I had to go explain to my neighbors, you know, what was going on. So it was uh it was a very stressful time for my family. Um and certainly one that's the kind of thing that I don't miss um about politics. But you know, it's interesting that that because I ran that bill, everyone seems to think, oh my gosh, Colwist is this, you know, this big supporter of of gun control. Um and if you look at my voting record before that bill, um I had an A rating from the National Rifle Association. Um I had voted against a lot of of uh bills that that are I voted for some bills looking to repeal the the magazine limit um and and some other you know the package of 2013 gun control legislation. But yet all of that in the gun lobby's eyes was undone because I had the sin of trying to tackle the issue of mental illness and gun ownership, which I think is is a conversation that we have to have as a country.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Yeah, I mean I completely agree as you know I've I voted in support of that bill as well. But let's back up a little bit. Yeah. Um tell folks what the red flag law is uh and why that was one of the bills that you decided to come across the aisle and across the NRA, if you will, um, and the Rocky Mountain Gun Association for sure, right, to not only support but to lead.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

So the first state in the country to pass a red flag law, and it just meant it I'll explain what that does, it was the state of Indiana. And it passed, if not unanimously, uh very close to being unanimously, a very Republican state, a very pro-Second Amendment state, signed by a Republican governor. And and what the red flag concept is, is that if someone is posing a risk to themselves or others, we provide a legal mechanism where someone, usually a family member or law enforcement, can go in and appear in front of a judge and and make their case as to why the legal threshold has been met, that they pose a hazard to themselves and others, and then temporarily temporarily remove firearms from that person's possession. Um and it's a temporary order. Um and then in order for this to be permanent, there would have to be an additional showing. So we spent a lot of time trying to craft a red flag law that was very robust in due process. We had the support of some Republican district attorneys, some Republican sheriffs. Um but uh you know, in in my view, uh whenever we have a uh a mass shooting, one of the first things we hear is, well, it's not the gun, it's it's the person. Right, right. And that's that's yeah, that's accurate. The gun's the tool. Guns don't shoot themselves, right? But it's entirely disingenuous if you say we we're gonna blame the person and not the gun, and then not have a conversation about why a person who was going through a mental crisis had access to firearms.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Yeah. And I think that's one of the things that frustrated me most about um, honestly, your party at the time, was there would be all these arguments saying we can't do gun control, we should instead provide more education, or we should provide um, or we should make sure that there's more mental health, or we should lock down our schools uh and make our schools more like a military zone. But we're not gonna provide the mental health care, we're not gonna provide red flag laws, which we know things like red flag laws and waiting periods are actually very effective at ensuring that's some one to decrease domestic death by domestic violence, as we know. Um, and also um folks who are looking to self-harm as well with a gun. When you make them wait the 72 hours or when there's a red flag holding period, um likewise when you have to take away, well, declare arms and then take away arms from someone who is under um a protection or a protection order is against them, that we know that that does work in protecting people. So why on earth would we oppose that? That should be something that we could come across the aisle and support. And I don't think that's a threat to the Second Amendment. I mean, do you?

SPEAKER_01 7:11

No, I I don't. Um, even Justice Scalia, um, and I don't think anyone could accuse Justice Scalia of being a softie on the Second Amendment, said that you can have reasonable restrictions on gun ownership. And there's there can be reasonable restrictions in terms of where someone can take a gun. Um but the Supreme Court just today, and we're filming this on the day that the Supreme Court handed its decision down on a Hawaii law that uh restricted someone's ability to take a firearm into a place of business, a private um bus you know, a privately owned business, and the Supreme Court said that that law was invalidated because or invalid because it restricted a person's Second Amendment rights.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

So they had to ask for permission. The Hawaii law I think says that the individual has to ask for permission um, presumably before going into a business and say, you know, I and declare, declare that they have a weapon. I have a I have a concealed carry weapon or I have a weapon on me, um, and they're saying that that is not legal. Um the Supreme Court has said that it's not legal. Um it makes me wonder about gun-free zones, you know, and so if I am a business owner and my business caters to families, and I say, no, you know, no firearms in here, is that, you know, should that be against the law or is that my right as a business owner to say that, to say no guns?

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Uh I I think it's interesting to me that a lot of the people who would say you don't infringe on someone's Second Amendment rights would, on the other side, also say you shouldn't infringe on someone's private property rights. Yeah. And so um I I think this is an interesting uh this is an interesting uh dispute. I think this is gonna flare up another context. Yeah. Country zones at schools, I think, are are another one. I think the court did make a distinction in terms of this being a place that that public the general public could access. So I don't know if if the court would consider that a school is a place where the general public could access, but it does um place, I think, squarely before us, you know, whether any restrictions in terms of where someone can take a gun is gonna be invalidated because the court's gonna say that the Second Amendment trumps private property rights.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Okay, so then I have some questions for you. Yeah, go ahead. Um I'm a gun owner myself. I know you are um I have uh always grown up around guns with my mom being in the military and my dad being um within law enforcement. And you know, I've always had respect for guns. It wasn't something that we were ever allowed to quote unquote play with. I mean, I would get my my butt handed to me if I did, quite frankly. Um but there are some things that I I am to I'm very much to the left of, you know. Um so I want to ask you a few questions about some of the gun policies, gun control policies that exist right now and whether or not you would support them. So do you support gun-free zones in schools, churches, and other places?

SPEAKER_01 10:12

Um it's one it's one I struggle with, quite frankly, because uh if you look at school shootings, um I I think if a teacher wants to carry a gun in a school, um I think there should be a conversation about how uh whether or not that that can be facilitated. And so long as the gun is locked up and kids don't have access to it, um, and the the teacher could could be uh a tool to to help defend the school. I think that's a reasonable measure. And we have a program in Colorado uh that that Laura Carno has has uh championed that that really tries to train teachers in terms of how to use how to use guns.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

I think so no gun on your holster as a teacher, but gun in a lockbox? Or can a teacher have a gun and a holster in the classroom?

SPEAKER_01 10:55

Yeah, I you know I think uh you you're gonna have to be really careful in terms of where the gun's kept and and how accessible it is, and and could a child get a hold of it. Um so but I'm not in favor of an absolute prohibition on on teachers having access, you know, to to firearms in schools because I think there's a way that we can use that to protect kids. Okay. And one of the things that we've had with school shootings is these mass shooters get into schools and we have no tools to fight back. Columbine, uh just if you just look at Columbine, how long it took the police just to get in. Columbine was the first school shooting, so we'd never been through anything like that. Um, but uh, you know, I I think we should look at uh a lot of tools to see, you know, what's available to protect kids.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

So and and I'm pretty opposed to it.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Um and I'll tell you why. So for me, um, as I I think I mentioned, or I did mention that my dad was in corrections um or law enforcement, he was in corrections. And within uh secured facilities, where we know there's a lot of bad guys and gals, if you will, uh, they don't bring their firearms into those facilities. One, of course, we have to worry about the fact that it could be taken from them in a struggle, right? And then used against um against the men, women, and folks who are working in corrections um and those who are, you know, correctional officers or just other staff that's there. And that's extremely dangerous. So if you pose that in a school situation and there might be a situation in which someone can get that weapon off of you, that's one problem. Another problem is we actually don't have gun restrictions in the Capitol for legislators. Well, I know that.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

And we've had guns left in conference rooms multiple times.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

My legislators irresponsible legislators leave their guns in conference rooms or in the bathroom on the urinal in a backpack. In a backpack, and other folks could have access to that. Now, not to mention the people who have access to the Capitol are many, you know. Everyone has access to the building. We're right off of Colfax. Um, you know, we've seen Narcan be administered on our front lawn, yet we have weapons that can just be laying there and left there. So people are just so irresponsible. Um, but that worries me. Um, and then additionally, the number of times a gun can just fall out because someone is not trained, and I will tell you the majority of gun owners in this state and in this country do not go through the rigorous training that law enforcement has to do or the military has to go through. And I feel like if you have a weapon, you should. But the way a gun can just fall and shoot someone, you know, um accidentally, I don't know that I want that. No, I know I don't want that in our schools. I know I don't want that in our churches, our synagogues, our mosques. I don't know that you shouldn't be able to have a gun anywhere. I don't believe that. But I do believe that if it's posted and it's clear, there should be a gun-free zone. I'm thinking of a, you know, the Denver Center for Performing Arts where kids are coming for a matinee. Why do you need a weapon in there? Uh and are you actually trained, if someone does come in with nefarious thoughts who does want to harm people, are you actually trained to use that weapon in a way that other people won't be harmed by you? And so I'm very opposed to that.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Um can I just offer one comment? And that is, you know, I I I think I I'm in favor of property owners and school districts making this decision for themselves. And and you some school districts may decide to not have uh gun for the city.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

Shouldn't the parents have something to say about that too?

SPEAKER_01 14:15

Sure, but they have elected leaders in those school districts who, you know, so if they don't like the decisions the school board makes, vote them out, right? But I think you've got to look at this on a on a location by location basis, and I think it's very specific to locale, and I can tell you that this issue looks very differently in uh rural western slope county like Delta County.

SPEAKER_02 14:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Um, I don't remember when I was growing up that people were people were you know packing heat coming to school. Okay. Um but look what about an 18-year-old in high school? Can they bring their gun? No, I I I'd absolutely not. But but it's like I think if but they can carry it into war. Well, you know, carrying it into school as a student.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Yeah, I mean if they're 18.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

You know, I I think what the what I've I've mainly heard in terms of gun-free zones, particularly as as related to schools, is let's allow teachers to have guns so long as they're trained, yeah. They know how to use and and the weapon and it's stored safely so it doesn't harm children.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Yeah. And you know, I think we can agree to disagree on that. Um how about 72-hour holds? Having to wait or having to have a background check?

SPEAKER_01 15:22

I'm I'm all for background checks. Okay. Um you know, I I think uh, you know, I'm not sure how why it requires a 72-hour hold. Does it require that much time to get a background check on somebody? But I I have no opposition to us doing a reasonable check to make sure that someone's not uh gonna pose a hazard. Um we've had and there is a Texas law that was struck down relating to uh if someone was convicted of an offense that related to use of marijuana, they were gonna be prohibited prohibited from from having a firearm and and Which I think is absurd. And I think the Supreme Court you know correctly unanimously said no, we're not gonna we're not going to allow that. Yeah, we agree. If someone has uh a history of mental illness, uh if someone's been hospitalized for mental illness, um if somebody has uh you know a record of of domestic violence or convicted of violent offenses, I think that's something that we should take into account as to whether or not that person should have a firearm.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

So it's really interesting. So 72-hour hold is really a cooling off period. So it's not really about um how long it takes to run a background check because quite frankly, unless there's a backlog, you can get them done pretty quickly. And what's not quickly for some folks it's like a day, you know? The 72-hour hold is really there because it it is a cooling off period when you're maybe, again, domestic violence or thinking about harming yourself. Now, can you get a weapon another way? Absolutely. But it shouldn't be so easy as to walk into Walmart and grab one. If you have to wait 72 hours and you're going hunting, you can figure it out. I so I really agree with the 72-hour holds. Um, here's where I think I'm to the right of you. Okay. Is that I don't necessarily believe that if you have um mental health issues or if you have been hospitalized for mental health challenges, that that automatically should say that you can't get a weapon. I worry about people not getting the care they need, especially men and especially men in rural Colorado that have increased risk of depression and suicide right now. Um, because of, you know, it's it's hard out there and and because they don't have access to mental health care. And so I worry, my mom being in the military, knowing what happens when you don't seek care, or when you're worried that they will find out that you did, and you will it it will be put in your record and it will might stop you from getting a promotion and things like that. So I believe there maybe should be a review and maybe a time period in which, you know, that mental health issues, and depending on what the mental health issue is, um would affect whether or not you can have a gun. But just saying mental health challenges in general, I mean, I don't know the numbers, but how many uh women right now across this country are on Lexapro? That's a joke on on social media, you know, um, about, you know, just what what what gram a Lexapro is that because you're too chill. Does that disqualify them from having a weapon just because their mental health is under control or it challenges are under control? Uh and so, or because they had a maybe they had an attempt when they were 18. Um, I don't believe that that should stop you from getting a gun.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

So I let me clarify, I don't think all mental illness um disqualifies you from gun ownership. But I think it's a relevant criteria that we should look at. Um if if the mental illness is depression or PTSD, and this is something we've talked about with a lot of veterans who who suffer from PTSD, is that disqualifying? And I think the answer to that is no. And broad rules and a a broad brush uh approach to this doesn't make sense. You've got to look at the individual specifics. But I mean, one that I would would would pose back to you, yeah. Let's say that there had been uh a proven case of an attempted suicide. Um would that disqualify someone from from gun ownership or because I one of the biggest uh Colorado's one of the has one of the highest rates of suicide in the United States, yeah, right? So and we have high incident of uh incidence of mental illness in Colorado. We also have high incidence of gun ownership.

SPEAKER_02 19:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

And so I I think it's a fair and appropriate question to say, is it the government's responsibility to protect someone from hurting themselves? And some people would say no, um, that that's that if that person wants to to to commit suicide, that's their own personal decision. That's that's their liberty, that's their freedom. Um, but you know, often suicides turn into murder suicides pretty quickly and start to harm other people. So I think that's why that's that's a fair thing to look at.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

Yeah, and I definitely think there should be a window, you know. Um, I don't think you should be able to walk out of the hospital on a uh 72-hour hold, 48-hour hold, wherever we're at right now, and go straight to get a weapon. I don't think that should happen either. Um, and so, you know, I I do think it's it's almost like you want it to be a case-by-case situation, but we know it's not, and we know it can't be, and so we have to have laws in place that think of, you know, what is the greater good. Right. And, you know, for me it's heartening for someone, for us, you know, and you to be someone who was a staunch uh Second Amendment advocate, and I still think you are, um, to say there are places that we can align on where guns should be. There's we should have reasonable gun control measures. You know, I ran a bill that was for lost and stolen. If your gun is lost or stolen, you have to report that to law enforcement. Um, guns used in crimes are typically stolen guns.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

You know, and they're stolen out of people's irresponsible um nature of keeping them in their car. You know, the number one place I heard in Denver where people are stealing weapons is at football games. Right. Because they can look at a a truck and say there's probably a gun in there. And they break in and they steal it, but those guns weren't being reported. Uh, and so, you know, I got a lot of pushback on that um from you know the far right saying that, you know, there she is again running these gun control measures. And I was like, that's so reasonable. If if my gun is stolen, I should have to report it. Um so I think there's a lot of places that we actually align. Um I don't think any of us want to walk around in a police state where we all have guns on our hips and we're just you know out there with um, you know, automatic weapons and all of that or military grade arsenal on us. Um, but that line is where I think the sticky issue is.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

Well, I mean, you know, we both served in the legislature and and I think you know, we tried to craft legislation based on real-world issues, things that people were were dealing with. Um and in terms of the reason that for me running the red flag law, there was a very specific case of uh the the the deputy the Douglas County Sheriff Zach Parrish, who lost his life. And in that particular case, this was an individual who had had years and years and years of established uh history of mental illness. The family had tried many times to remove firearms. This is a person that had threatened uh uh professors at at a uh Higher an institution in Wyoming had threatened law enforcement here in Colorado. And that family expressed frustration that there was nothing in the law that permitted them an opportunity to get him help. Not to punish him, but to get him help and to remove him from a dangerous situation. And unfortunately, because we didn't have a tool, a deputy sheriff who was attempting to take him in on a 72-hour hold lost his life. And can we just talk about the 72-hour hold for a minute? It's broken. Okay. The M1 hold does not work. And in most cases, they take someone in for a few hours. It's not a 72-hour hold. There's no meaningful evaluation of this person's mental fitness. So if we we truly want to protect the community, and frankly, for protect people who are suffering from mental illness from harming themselves, can we just actually give the M1 hold some teeth?

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

And make it work?

SPEAKER_00 22:57

Yeah. So before we go, we we don't have time to go all the way into that, but I completely agree with you. And I just want to point out that this is how we ran bills together. Right. Was we came to different from different sides of an issue, understood where each other was coming from, and said, wait a minute, I'll work with you on that 72-hour hold issue. I agree with you. That part is broken. And then we would take that, we'd set the rest aside, you know, do what you do, and then we would run that issue together. And that built trust and understanding, and also I think it gave us allowances to say, it's okay if you disagree with me on certain parts, you know, on certain things. We got this done together. At least we tackled this issue.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

I think we've got to start challenging people after a shooting that say, well, it's mental illness. Yeah. Well, then my question is, then what is your policy solution? What are you gonna do about it? How are you gonna tackle this? So I mean, and because the approach that they seem to take is to throw up their hands and say, Well, there's nothing we can do, thoughts and prayers, let's 100%. You know. And that's that's unacceptable. I'm sorry. If one of the main fo one of the main purposes of government is public safety.

SPEAKER_02 24:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Okay?

SPEAKER_02 24:03

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

So I'm not saying we've got to go out and and grab guns and and take guns away from people, and there seems to be this paranoia that the cops are gonna go door to door and take people's guns away. That's flawful.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

Well, they said Obama was going to.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

You know, it didn't happen. Okay, but I think we've got to get past the stigma that any reasonable restriction is off the table because we can't ever talk about removing guns for people.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

I agree. Uh, and you know, I ran a ballot measure called Caring for Denver. It's now the largest mental health foundation. We're thinking in the country, we do $40 million for mental health care for people living in Denver. Um, and the one group that opposed it, conservatives. Yeah. And it's like, what? Like this should be something that we all agree that people should have access to mental health care when they need it. And we know that getting that will decrease crime on it it on itself, you know. Um so before we wrap this up, you were adamant about passing the red flag law. You didn't back down when the NRA and the Rocky Mountain gun owners came at you pretty hard. Not only to talk about the threats, that was coming from somewhere else. Right. But organizations directly started attacking you. Uh, and quite frankly, you lost your seat because of it.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

It was part of it.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

So talk about that. Why do why why'd you have such a conviction? And yeah, how did that go down?

SPEAKER_01 25:25

I I don't think we're elected to do easy things. I think we're elected to do hard things, okay? Um, and there are plenty of people in elected office who are taking up space who aren't doing anything. And I believed that it was my job as a legislator to try to tackle tough issues. Um was the bill perfect? No. Uh, but it was an attempt to try to to attack something that I've kept hearing continuously that mental illness and guns were were something that was dangerous that we should talk about. I don't regret taking on the issue. I don't regret having the conversation. Uh it was a certainly very stressful time uh for me. Uh, but I I've been asked this many times, would you do it again? Yeah and unquestionably I would because I thought it was the right policy solution. The ironically, the bill that my successor passed, Tom Sullivan, that passed the next year, had much less due process protections. I actually I came out in opposition to that bill because I thought I thought it was very thin on due process protections. But you know, before we go, um, I think if you look at how this law has worked, even the the the bill that passed the year after I left office, um, it hasn't been abused. Um and we haven't had people walking into court right and left uh swearing out affidavits to take guns away from people. And in large part, um, and I've heard this from law enforcement, law enforcement's one of the the biggest users of the red flag law, and it's proven to be pretty effective. And some of the most conservative, right-leaning law enforcement folks that I've talked to like the way the red flag law is working in Colorado.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

Yeah, well, love you, hate you, love the issue, hate the issue. I'm gonna say one thing, which is I always respected advice, someone who has moral courage. Yeah, thank you. Uh, and you showed up with that moral courage and you fought through it, you continue to fight for it, and you continue to stand up for your conviction, you gotta respect that.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. Uh, you know, we hope that that us having this conversation about a tough issue uh will help you to have conversations with your friends, your family. Um that's really the the purpose of what we're trying to do here, and that is to start conversation.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

Yeah, because politics is definitely personal. Have the conversation. Thank you so much for listening. Politics Personal is hosted by Leslie Harrod and Cole Whist. This episode was directed by Julie Jackson and edited by Jamison Johnson, produced by Leslie Harrod, Cole Whist, Ian Savari, and Julie Jackson, music by JKK. And follow us on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, YouTube, and any site you get your podcast at politics is personal with Leslie and Cole. Recorded at Denver Community Media, all rights reserved.