Why the Most Popular Wellness Tools Are Actually Destroying Burnt Out Men (A Doctor Explains)

Everyone's doing ice baths. Everyone's doing Wim Hof. Everyone's doing intermittent fasting. Everyone's pushing harder, going colder, training more.
And for a lot of men, it could be making things significantly worse.

In this eye-opening conversation, Mish sits down with Dr. Jans Olde Wolbers, chiropractor and men's work advocate based in Ibiza, who has spent 20 years in practice understanding exactly what the body is trying to tell us  and why most men aren't listening.

What you'll discover in this conversation will challenge everything you thought you knew about wellness and high performance. Why your nervous system has three states and most men are stuck in the most dangerous one without even knowing it. 

Why ice baths, saunas and intense breathwork can actually destroy a burnt out man's system rather than heal it. The difference between pushing through and shutting down and why from the outside they look exactly the same. The one breathing technique that resets your entire nervous system in under a minute. Why the most important work a man can do doesn't happen in ceremony, in the gym or in an ice bath. It happens on a Tuesday morning when life gets hard.

This conversation goes deep into the nervous system, men's emotional shutdown, plant medicine, relationships, shadows and the one decision that changes everything for a man who is ready to stop performing and start healing.

If you have been grinding, pushing, biohacking and still feeling empty, this episode is exactly what you need to hear.

📞 Ready to go deeper? Book a call with Mish
 👉 https://www.kingsofcompassion.com/apply-to-work-with-me
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 🌐 kingsofcompassion.com
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Connect with Dr Jans
🏥 Central Chiropractic Ibiza: 20 years in practice helping people reconnect with their bodies, regulate their nervous systems and unlock their true potential. Based in Ibiza Town since 2009.

🧖 Red light infrared sauna available at the practice.
🏔️ Monthly men's hikes across Ibiza: Walking men's circles with a focused theme.
 📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/the.men.of.the.earth
📅 Book an appointment with Dr. Jans:
 👉 https://centroquiropracticoibiza.com/cita/

#KingsOfCompassion #NervousSystem #MensMentalHealth #Biohacking #IceBath #Burnout #MensWork #ChiropracticHealing #MindBodyConnection #PersonalGrowth

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

You cannot heal and be in a state of defense at the same time. It's impossible. Essentially, everything is designed to keep us in a stressed state. And when we're in a stressed state, we don't think clearly, we are not creative. We don't heal. So you can overtrain and you can burn yourself out through exercise. If we're in chronic sympathetic activity, then eventually it leads to burnout. So we need to be able to come in now, have flexibility with our system so we come in and out of sympathetic when we need to. The biggest thing that we can do as an individual without having to have anybody else or anything else is Dr.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Jans Older Wulbers. We were just discussing what it is to have tricky names. But thank you so much for joining me on the Kings of Compassion podcast. It is so wonderful to have you here. So I really appreciate your time and energy.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Yeah, thanks for having me. Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

A big question for me right now, for a lot of the men that I ask is as a man in 2026, when you're thinking or feeling into the future, what is inspiring you the most right now?

SPEAKER_03 0:59

Um that's a great question. That's inspiring me right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

I I think I think it's in these last few years there's been a real shift just in the in the population. I think sort of uh COVID and and the lockdowns, all that sort of stuff created a bit of a movement globally with people. And um yeah, people are looking for greater depth, I think, and purpose and meaning in life, particularly. Um and so yeah, I think there's a real positive movement towards wanting to understand oneself and how to yeah, step in to be a better version of ourselves for the future as well. Now, particularly in men, I think as well. It's on my own journey that I've been on since the last 10 years or so, particularly with with men's work and and relational dynamics and so forth. Um yeah, just how to be a better man, be a better leader for myself, for you know, my family, for for my work, the world, those sort of things. So yeah, I think we're on a good path in that sense. We need good good men to step up and lead as well and be part of the this um new future that we're creating together and and have you know powerful women beside us to to yeah, walk the path.

SPEAKER_03 2:22

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

I think that's so beautiful what you just said there, because I think in my world, me coaching men, I come across a lot of men who are facing this narrative of men don't matter. And it's bullshit. And I love what you're saying there where you said it's men and women, we have to walk this together because you know, as we've just come out of the big feminist movements, a lot of women are still holding on to that. I need to do it by myself, and me included, I was like that very much. Um, you know, I'm an independent woman, I can do it myself until I realized when I started doing this men's work and working with men, just the incredible power and beauty and the unsaid things that men, men do. It's it's phenomenal. And I think so much of that gets missed. And so I'm glad I'm so glad you're excited about that, as all the things that you could have mentioned, because I know you're doing amazing in your practice. I know the relationship's going well, and you've been on the island in Ibita for some time. Um, so you've been doing amazing stuff, but I'm so glad that you named that as the thing to be um to be inspired about. And so it's awesome to hear. So moving kind of deeper into your story, I'd love for you to share a little bit about how you got into being a chiropractor. But for me, Jans, you're not just any chiropractor. Um, I love the way that you hold space for the community with the art that you hang in uh in the practice on a monthly or quarterly basis, the community events, um, the way you greet me when I come into a session. Um your bedside manner is always so beautiful, and you're one of the few practitioners that actually listens. And so I just so much appreciate what you do and the way you do it. And so I'd love for folks to hear about how you got into that because the way you do it is very connective and that's different. And so maybe you can just speak to the journey of becoming a chiropractor and kind of that level of connection and how you value it as something important because it shines through in what you do.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

Okay, well, beautiful feedback. Thank you so much. Uh, don't often get that sort of um feedback about uh what you do, you kind of just do it. Um but uh really love it to hear that, so thank you. Um yeah, it's been a long, long journey. I've been in practice for 20 years now and been in Ibiza s uh since 2009, so yeah, a long time, 17 years. Um I got into chiropractic through my own personal journey. I had headaches when I was a kid. Every month I have a headache, sort of from seven years of age, and then as I got older, it started getting every two weeks and then every week. And by the time I was kind of 15 to 18, I was having headaches every day. And yeah, neck-based headaches. I was cracking my neck 20 times a day to try and relieve it to feel free. And I honestly thought that pain was a normal thing. I thought everybody had pain, that was just what he did, and just took painkillers. Um, had anxiety, depression, had yeah, just a whole bunch of poor memory, poor brain function, all of these sort of things. And it wasn't until my mum took me to see my chiropractor, um, Dr. Simon Floriani in Melbourne, Australia. And uh yeah, he changed my life. And I was 18 at the time. And I remember receiving my first adjustment and thinking, my god, what the hell was that? You know, I've been cracking my neck 20 times a day for years, and when I had that first adjustment, it it was like I've been looking for that my whole life. That that was that was what happened in my system. It's like, thank you, finally. And I felt just this pressure release in in my neck and my head, and and that was the the step, first step to becoming a chiropractor. When I was wanting to study medicine, always been fascinated by the health and human body and yeah, what uh what makes us work. And um just being in his practice in Melbourne with music and an open space and kids running around and yeah, art on the walls, and people are just happy to be there in the practice. It didn't smell like disinfectant, it wasn't cultural, it was you know, it was a you know it was actually a healing space rather than a clinical, yeah, cold kind of experience. Um, and so that that was the the the platform, the launching pad for my own journey um with chiropractic and studied chiropractic for five years and worked with him and his wife uh for four years in Melbourne, and uh then had the opportunity to come and work in Abita and then set up my own practice here since the last uh 12 years or so, since 2014. So it's been yeah, it's been an amazing journey and uh really, really grateful that you like the the artwork that we have on on every three months. I really enjoy that as well. It changes the the feel of the space every few months and yeah, just really try and make it a connected experience because really that's what I'm doing as a chiropractor. I'm I'm releasing these blockages in their system that's keeping them disconnected from them themselves and their true potential, really. People think chiropractic is about headache and and back pain, and I mean that's why I went, but it completely changed my whole life, you know. So it's way more than that. There's a that there's a saying in chiropractic if you go to the chiropractor for headache and back pain, it's like robbing the bank and just taking the pens. You know, there's so much, so much in the bolts that you're missing out on if you just think it's about that, you know. So so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

Yeah, that's a beautiful description. Robbing the bank and just taking the pens. Well, I don't just take the pens, I'm always like, Yans, this is what's happening with me. Like, you know, let's let's get into it. And we've been on our journey together probably for about two years or just over a year and a bit now. And um, I've certainly noticed the difference in my whole body and each season it changes, um, especially with the weather here on the island. Um and when we kind of think about consciousness and waking up, you know, you mentioned that shift at the beginning, and the world is kind of looking after COVID, and for some of us it was a little bit earlier, just depending on where you were in your journey. But we started waking up to this, oh wow, I actually need to do something better in my life. And one of the first stages of that waking up is the body, right? Becoming aware of the body, and that's very much your domain. And so, what was that kind of shift? Because I think you studied to become a doctor first, and then you were like, oh no, I want to move into the chiropractics and the and and the body as such in a in a deeper way. So, what was it that led you to be inspired in the body? Because when we understand, wow, this is actually a vessel for our soul, then it becomes a different way of treating the body and not just the aches and pains, and often, in my experience, the allopathic way, and there's nothing wrong with allopathics, but take a tablet for this and take a tablet for that, you know? And so what was it that created that shift to kind of go deeper into the energetics, the the body, and this way of doing things?

SPEAKER_02 9:39

Um, well, I think you know, chiropractic has its own distinct and deep philosophy about the innate intelligence of the body. And I think that was one of the biggest things that attracted to me about it as well. I mean, my parents were proper hippies, you know, they were following a guru around the world when I was two years of age and going to holy festivals and all this sort of stuff. You know, I grew up with uh Eastern philosophy and and these sort of things, meditation. This was all really normal for me, but I also grew up in a very Western culture. So I had this real disconnection in terms of my my inner world, what was happening at home and then what was happening out in the world, and like this yeah, um the materialistic western perspective and the spiritual kind of eastern perspective. And I was like, how do I bridge this? Because I'm I'm in both, you know, I'm not one or the other, I'm both. Uh, and so yeah, I mean, I actually from a young age I set out to try and find the connection between those two polarities. And when I found chiropractic through my own experience, um uh my chiropractor shared with me the philosophy of chiropractic, and it's exactly that. It's it's a it's a Western-based tradition from the US 120 years ago, but it has a very eastern philosophy in that the the body self-heals, self-regulates, it's it's intelligent and it's an expression of the universal intelligence of of everything around us. Um, and so yeah, when I when I discovered that, it was a real obvious path to take for me because it really linked the two. And also that it was a really natural approach to not treating symptoms. It's about how do we how can we help the body come out of a defensive pattern that it's stuck in in a natural way? Because the the body has everything it needs to heal itself, but then it gets stuck, either it doesn't have enough resources to do what it needs to do, or it's overwhelmed by the world around it that's it's stressing and yeah, causing dis ease, imbalance, and eventually you know it can cause disease and symptoms and those sort of things. So yeah, it just made a lot of sense to me. Uh, and also just my own experience with it was like, wow, okay. Um and I suppose just naturally living here in Ibiza, it's it's kind of a very uh conscious community, hippie kind of space, and just just living here, it it forces you to kind of go into that world. I I actually rejected all of my spiritual hippie teachings for my parents because I felt very alienated by the world, like growing up with that at home, then going to school at 10 years of age and saying, Hey, what about these chakras? And the kids are like, What are you talking about? So, and you know, growing up with a name like we we talked about before, Yanska Olderwall was in Australia, uh, the only vegetarian hippie kid that had to bring his own vegetarian sausages to the barbecues, you know. It was it was a tough kid to say it was so I I kind of rejected all of that as a as a young young person, and then yeah, I just uh you know, getting to that kind of 35-40-year-old mark and having built the success that I was looking for in the beginning, and then like, okay, is this it? I'm still not happy, you know, is is what I thought if I got the car, I'm in the visa, I've got this, I've got that. Like, isn't that what I was wanting to get? You know, isn't that my happiness? And um, yeah, just realized that I was exactly the same position that I was before all of that. So it it hadn't changed anything, and um yeah, just naturally progressed into finding a deeper path, wanting to yeah, connect more with my own, my own heart, who I really am, what I'm here for, what's my mission, and yeah, kind of is on unfolded from that.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

Yeah, awesome. So that for me, one of the things that was really super to experience when I first came to you was um kinesiology. Kinesiology, you know, I teach this in a different program that I run, um, which is a detox program, and we use kinesiology to help make decisions to test for food, all these sorts of things. Um But my energy healers taught me about kinesiology originally and kind of use your body to test what's true and what's not. And then when I came to you, seeing you using it in your practice, I was like, wow, this is amazing! Like this dude's using energy and medicine together. Um, and so for folks who don't know how you use kinesiology, maybe you could just explain what it is from your perspective and then how you use it to treat someone like me in the practice to understand what's going on in my body.

SPEAKER_02 14:35

Sure. Yeah, uh, well, uh kinesiology uh actually comes from chiropractic. Originally it's applied kinesiology, so a muscle testing system that was developed uh a long time ago now, it's probably 70 to 80 years ago, um, by Dr. Goodhart. Uh he was an applied kinesiology, he developed it. And it was just through his own experimentation and discovery that we could use the body to actually tell whether something was good or not good for it, basically. So um a muscle can be strong or it can be weak. And if if the muscle is is weak, then the the the conclusion is that it's uh an issue for the system, it causes weakness and it's it's not in a strong state. Um that's kind of the absolute basic of it. If if the muscle is strong, then we assume that that's a good thing for the body. Um there are a lot of subtleties when it goes deeper into that, so it's not that simple, actually. And you have to be careful about false positive, false negatives with it, and there are ways to to deal with that. Um but just as an understanding, you do a muscle test, it's strong, it's it's good. So the body is happy with that. Um if it goes weak, then it's telling us that something's not good. So I I use it primarily as a as a simple way of getting biofeedback from the system about where I need to adjust, so where the weak points are in the system, but then also I can use it as a post-adjustment check so I can see, okay, is is the system now in balance? Is it strong? And is it um you know, in a better state than before? So, you know, we can, for instance, just touch very lightly in an area, and the way I explain it to uh the people that come and see me is that by touching this area, I'm bringing the brain's awareness to this point. And if there's a problem in that area, the system will weaken itself to protect. So it's it's a defensive strategy by the the nervous system and the body to be able to protect itself. So we can either have muscle tension that locks up and protects like a brace, or we can have weakness so that we can't load up the area and cause ourselves injury. So that's kind of on that neurological physical foundation. Um, that's that's the way I explain it to the people come and see me. But then there's there's many layers to it as well. You've got the physical, then you've got the energetic, emotional, mental, uh, spiritual levels with it as well. So you can use it in many, many different ways. Um, there are some chiropractors that use it only for emotional shifts, and they they they're they're adjusting people for shifting emotional blockages, not so much physical issues. So, I mean, there's there's many, many ways you can practice it. Um you can even go into chemical toxicities or uh nutrition, nutrient deficiencies. Uh, you can test anything basically. So as long as you have that that system um well sorted out and understood, then you can use it very, very easily to see whether it's uh a positive or negative thing for the system to do.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

Yeah, brilliant. Thanks for that explanation because sometimes people don't understand how powerful the body is and how much we hold. And so you were speaking a little bit earlier about the protection mechanisms. So weakening that area so that we don't load it, and then we've got the other mechanisms as well, which is the nervous system. And this is obviously where I like to really get into things, and I know you do as well, because this is like critical. When I started to learn about the Maya Fashia, when I started to learn about the nervous system and how everything is affected and driven by this, I was like, well, like we need to pay attention to this, and we're not, because so, in my experience, I'd played water polo um at a very high level. I'd always been sporting, gymming, all these sorts of things. But I never really clicked that there was something else underneath that and kind of more important. And so maybe if you could just speak to like what the nervous system is, because again, I don't know what levels folks are at, but then how does that actually relate to the body? And then perhaps you could just inject something in there as well around how it affects men in particular.

SPEAKER_02 18:53

Sure. Okay. So I mean, most people will understand that we have a brain in our head, so it's a good first start with it. So the central processing uh center of our nervous system is the brain, and we've got extension of the brain, which is the spinal cord, going down the spine. So that's why, as chiropractors, we are working with the spine primarily, the pelvis, the skull, because it's protecting the central nervous system. Um any sort of misalignment that happens in that system, any dysfunction in the neurospinal system can then cause flow-on effects into the rest of the body, right? So we've got the central nervous system, but then we've also got what's called the autonomic nervous system, which is the automatic part of the nervous system, and there are two parts to that. There's the accelerator part, which is the sympathetic part, and then there's the breaking part, which is the parasympathetic. Okay, so you can think of you know paralytic when you just you can't move, it's it's shutting down or slowing down. Uh so that those parts of the autonomic nervous system are actually outside of the spine, they run along the spine, outside of it, in usually like within the um uh thoracic cage and the abdomen and and and the throat area as well. And that's I think probably more important for overall function and health, because that's where most of the subconscious reflexes are happening, right? So um if you want to be breathing, if your blood pressure, your temperature, your stomach acidity, all these things are controlled primarily through autonomic activity, so automatic activity, things you don't have to think about. And so if we get dysregulation in the autonomic nervous system, then we start having lots of troubles with our health. So organ systems don't work properly, um, our immune system might be dysregulated, not able to fight off disease properly, um, we don't sleep properly, we have stress-related illness, all of these sort of things. Uh, the central nervous system is kind of like the central hub for everything, and it's more where our conscious thinking occurs in our prefrontal cortex, our language centers, you know, visual processing, auditory processing, all of that sort of stuff. Um, but I think the most important thing really is the autonomics, and that ties into uh what's called polyvagal theory. So there's there's a really important nerve called the vagus nerve. People may have heard of it now. Uh it's really important because it's the primary nerve that goes from the base of the skull down through the neck and the outside of part of the spine, through the chest and the abdomen, that basically controls the majority of autonomic function in the body. And it's primarily related to the breaking of the nervous system, breaking, slowing down. And if we don't have that functioning well, then we're constantly. In the sympathetic side, which is the overactive side. Okay, so essentially there's three states that are very important for us to understand. One is it's called ventral vagal state. So ventral means front, right? And the ventral vagal state is when we're calm and relaxed. So we're alert, but we're calm and relaxed. That's when we're in a in a great state for socializing, connection, for just being. You know, when you're relaxing in a in a nice environment with some friends, you will be in a ventral vagal state. Suddenly someone comes in and starts yelling when you're in that relaxed ventral state, you're going to be triggered into what's called sympathetic activity. Okay, so the sympathetic nervous system, autonomic nervous system, is vital for our fight and flight defense system. Okay, so fight is running towards to try and defend off whatever danger there is, and flight is running away from whatever danger there is to survive. Okay, so often we will have these sorts of states happen with us, even if it's not a really intense, stressful environment. We get triggered for whatever reason, and we either get angry and go towards and bra, or we're like, I'm out of here and get out of here. So that it's uh a lower volume version of that survival mechanism that takes place, the sympathetic activity. Attack or leave. Um, then the third level of of defense is called dorsal vagal. So dorsal meaning back, ventral is front, dorsal is back. It's like a dorsal fin of a of a dolphin or a shark. Um dorsal vagal means that the back part of the vagus nerve is responsible for what's called shutdown. So it's the freeze, the form, um defensive patterns. Okay, so that's basically where you're playing dead. You know, you see mice, for instance, they're being attacked by a cat, and then they're like like this on the ground, and then you think that the mouse is dead, and the cat walks away, and the mouse jumps up and runs off. Okay, so that is is a perfect example of a dorsal shutdown freeze state for survival. It plays dead so that it doesn't keep getting attacked. Because if the animal, the predator thinks the animal is still alive, they will keep chewing on it, biting it, whatever to try and kill it, and then then they leave it. They come back when they eat it. So we have the same thing. It's it's the most ancient part of the uh system, and it's the most basic. And so it really takes a lot of over stress and straining to get to that level. But um often it happens, I think, with men, and I've I've seen that in my own experience. That you know, when when we get triggered to a certain level, like for instance, myself, and I get triggered, my tendency is to like, I'm out of here. Like, I don't have to deal with this. Like, you don't want to be blah blah blah. I gotta go, you know. And so my my strategy for surviving the danger is avoidance, right? To to fly, to to run out of here. Um, and that sort of also ties into attachment theory too, where we have you know avoidant attachment where we want to be connected, but we can't handle the connection and we have to leave. Or the anxious attachment where we're hanging on for dear life because we don't want them to leave. So there's that kind of dynamic, and then the third is the stable type that goes with that. So that's a whole other topic, but it ties in completely with this. So it's it's a different language for the same thing. So with the dorsal vagal state, it's the shutdown, it's the going into the cave, it's I can't talk, I I don't know what to say. Um depression. So you've got sympathetic activity is anxiety and anger, and then you've got dorsal vagal shutdown, which is depression avoidance in terms of numbing out alcohol, porn, um, work, exercise, like anything to just numb as well. So we have a lot of uh strategies to kind of deal with this inner turbulence, because even though on the outside, you know, you might be sitting there on the on the sofa while your partner's, you know, giving you her thoughts, and you just and you shut down. And from the outside, it looks like nothing's happening. It looks like you're completely just not present, you're not there. But on the inside, you actually got an incredibly high level of stress. So it you're in a sympathetic activity, but on the inside. So you're blowing up, but you're not, you're not being, it's not being seen. So it's it's actually more destructive, I think, because it's harder to read it from the outside. It's harder for the person you're with to understand what's going on. And I think men also just generally culturally were never really been taught how to to feel and to be safe feeling things. You know, the typical stories of boys don't cry, shut up, just get on with it, you know, push through. And so it's this this shutdown of the heart, you know, putting armor on, toughening up, manning up to then just push through. And so we're we disconnect completely from the feeling, but we still have to keep going. And and I think that's where it it that ends up with burnout, it ends up with suppressed anger that just turns inward. So, I mean, you know, suppressed anger that goes inward essentially is depression, and then eventually that turns into sickness because it's not being expressed out of the system, it gets stuck and it's in a loop. So yeah, I I I those are the two kind of dominant states I think that most men are in: either the aggression, anxiety, sympathetic outward expression, or then very commonly as well, the the inward shutdown, lockdown, um, depressive numbing out, avoidant um approach as well.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

Yeah, I didn't really understand the depth of the the dorsal side. Um and there you're mentioning it's actually very well it's it's more dangerous, not dangerous, but kind of it's it's it's worse than we think it is almost.

SPEAKER_03 28:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

Um and I think more recently we've seen that in our community where we had a man recently take his life, which was devastating. Um because he didn't feel like he could talk and share that whatever was on his heart, his mind, and going on for him. And so I think that's just such a real important thing to note because I don't know if you're aware, Jans, but I did a podcast with um Teo van Dort last month. I haven't put it on yet, it'll it'll be coming soon, but he's doing a uh nine-part documentary series on male suicide. And of all the suicides that take place on the earth, three out of four are men, which equates to 15, over 1,500 a day.

SPEAKER_03 29:45

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, and it ties in exactly with this.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

It's this overwhelm, the burden of carrying everything without being able to have without having the tools and without feeling like we can actually express and deal with it, and then being stuck in this this lockdown state, because it that's what happens. It's not a rational, logical state to be in. It's incredibly emotional. And when we're in that incredible emotional state, we're out of the prefrontal cortex, is where we have the logical, rational thought, and we're in our animal hindbrain, which is all about survival. And and especially when you're in that locked in, it feels like you're just you're in this hole. Like it really does. I I've I've been there, you know, when I was younger, when I was a teenager, and even over these last years, um with what we call the shadows, you know, they're our younger, traumatized parts coming up to take over and and survive whatever's happening based on strategies we we learned when we were five, ten, fifteen years of age. And obviously they're not healthy strategies, but um those those parts get stuck in these loops. And then the nervous system, the more you're in that, the more it gets ingrained as well. You know, we get that um the neurons that fire together, wire together, we get this reinforcement of neurological patterning that happens as well. And so it gets even harder to get out of these neurological patterns. Just like when you're skiing down the slopes and you know in the morning it's all fresh snow and clean and you can go everywhere, it's very easy. By the end of the day, you've got thousands of tracks, but they're ingrained. And so if you want to go cross-country, you kind of get stuck in these grooves. That's that's our neurological patterning as well. So once you get stuck in that, and then you're utilizing other strategies like alcohol or drugs or sex or whatever it may be, even work or sports, we're actually reinforcing these loops rather than actually resetting it and getting out of it. And yeah, that the patterning is really important. So, I mean, one of the things I found really helpful for getting out of that that shutdown because it like you literally can't talk because you're in, you're playing, your nervous system's playing dead, you know. So when you're in that state, I found one of the most powerful things to do is actually do the third-person perspective, the the the name it to tame it approach. So it's like you're with your partner, she's telling you what she wants to express with you, and you find it incredibly hard to hear it, to respond to it, whatever it may be. The best thing I found is to actually just say, hey, look, I'm feeling really overwhelmed right now. I I literally can't talk. I I don't know what to say. I just I feel really locked down and shut down right now. Can can I just have a moment just to center myself and and come back to a more normal state again, and then we can we can talk again. Because when you're in that triggered state, and often she'll be triggered in her own way as well. Maybe she's in sympathetic and she's like rah-rah rah, and then you're in shutdown, and like just leave me alone and disconnect. It's not gonna work anyway. So, but once once you you take that first step to actually express something and just naming what you're feeling, it's like I'm feeling really overwhelmed, I'm feeling really emotional, I'm feeling I don't know what's going on right now, but I just need a moment, then that I think is a really powerful first step to actually start expressing because you get you're you suddenly you're out of that freeze, and then you can start moving again. Because when you get to the freeze level, the only way is down. So you go from dorsal shutdown into sympathetic. Suddenly you're active.

unknown 33:43

Right?

SPEAKER_02 33:43

So that imagine the mouse that's playing dead, it's off. The the cat goes away, and then boom, it's on its feet, then it's off. So it goes from the shutdown into sympathetic. That's when it's movements, it's anger, it's sweating, it's rah, you want to you know, yell, whatever it is, and then you come back down into a regulated ventral vagal state. So we need to go through these levels to be able to come back to to neutral again. Um and yeah, we can't, we can't jump it. So the first step of coming out of that freeze is just to name it, to tame it, just say, this is what's going on for me. I need a moment. And then maybe the anger comes up. That's where you've got to be careful as well. You know, that you don't just blow that out into the space. Um, I often find just grabbing a pillow and just screaming into the pillow is a really good way of just getting that anger out. Just that, yeah, the adrenaline that's that's in there, or go for a walk, go for, you know, go for a run, something where your movement, movements coming into it, so you can really calm the system down as well. And then once that that sympathetic state has started to relax, then there's this release, and it's like, okay, now my system is able to come back down to ventral vagal. And we see this all the time in animals. If you observe animals, they do it all the time. Like our dog Bailey. I'm blown away with how much he shakes off in his life. Like, even if it's something that is fun and exciting, he's like, and then he's like or gets into an aggressive situation with another dog, you know, and then he shakes it off as well. So basically, everything that this like takes him away from his center, he will shake it off and bring it back to back to center again. So he's been an incredible teacher for me as well to see that, you know, and we've forgotten that we are part of nature, we are our bodies and nature, and so we're in our heads so much that we we don't realize that we need to actually go through these states to to come back to regulation again.

SPEAKER_03 35:51

That's really, really important.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Yeah, thanks, Jans. Those are like such powerful takeaways there for like the pause. You like name it's attainment. But I think a lot of men they have these programs in them where it's like I'm not allowed to, I need to know the answer, I need to solve it straight away. But if you're in that state where you're just frozen, um, just naming it is obviously, as you just said, super helpful. Um, and in the pause, it just allows what a lot of people forget is it allows spirit to come through as well. It's just like so many times where I've taken the pause and even in a conversation or whatever, and just taking a breath because that brings you back into your body. And then we can go, okay, now we can move, as you said, because it changes state. I think what a lot of men underestimate in women themselves is the differences in how we focus. So men are typically single-focused, not better or worse, just different. That's how they kind of work. And women are more diffused awareness or diffused awareness. And so we are able to see more things more broadly because we're scanning for safety more than men are because they don't have that inherent need to feel safe. And what I find then in conversation and when I'm coaching my clients, um, they speak a lot about being interrupted and not being able to share. And for women, because we have this diffused awareness, we are expecting an answer really quickly because we can see like 15 things, right? And we're like, come on, come on. Sometimes what will happen in conversation is we'll ask men a question and men with their single focus, they're gonna consider their response. And so it takes time to get there. But because we're operating with a diffused awareness, we're like, is this dude stupid? Like, what the hell? So then we give like multiple choice, and now your focus has to go from the deeper journey that you were taking to answer the question to okay, now I've got to answer multiple choice, and let me kind of consider that. And then she's like, hey, dude, last like yes, no, you know, because like, come on, let's get the show on the road because I've got to go X, Y, and Z. And I think just by allowing yourself to say, Hey, I need space, there's a whole click, like a click on the conversation where it just allows everyone to go, whew, let's just take a moment. Because I think things like AI, the general energies on the planet are speeding things up. And so we're under this constant pressure, work, whatever it is, yeah. So do the next, do the next, do the next. And so uh recently I had a client say to me, Mish, through our work together, I'm really starting to understand that slow is the new fast. So, what do you think about that? Slow being the new fast.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

Yeah, I mean, I just wanted to just double back onto what you were saying. It's not just about processing the thought and and getting the answer. It's also a lot of the time it's overwhelming and shut down. And so it's difficult to like, and suddenly there's another question, another one is like, oh my god, and just get deeper and deeper and deeper. And then it's like you just can't do anything. And so, yeah, I think that's another important thing, particularly for women to understand about men, that when they're sitting there not saying anything, it doesn't mean there's nothing happening. That's really important, actually, that there's a lot going on, but it's just being processed internally rather than externally. So that's also another difference between the masculine and feminine, is that the processing in groups or processing by yourself. It's like left brain, right brain as well. It's all it's this beautiful symmetry of the yin and yang, the feminine and the masculine. But we if we understand each other's tendencies and and needs and even make agreements with each other outside of the triggers, because when you're triggered, just forget it. Like rationality just goes out the door, it's all emotional. Um, but if we can make agreements outside of that and say, okay, when we have a conversation or when when something comes up, you know, have we have like a container that we create that we can go through these specific steps so that I feel safe to then have my moment to then be able to ponder and and then express it. Or say to you, actually, I'm really emotional right now and I can't process anything, you know, to be able to have that. I think that that's that's a game changer for sure.

SPEAKER_03 40:29

Um and coming back to the question.

SPEAKER_02 40:35

What was the question again?

SPEAKER_00 40:37

That's okay. So just talking about the speed at which things are operating, for me, fast is uh it's dangerous, it's good, you're gonna just spin off and literally uh hurt yourself. And so slow is the new fast, and I see that with every single client. And the moment they start implementing that, allow more space, whether it is getting to a new relationship, signing a new deal, making a decision on a divorce, kids' schools, whatever it is, yeah, move at your own pace.

SPEAKER_02 41:05

Yeah, absolutely. No, it's it's key because it's coming out of that defensive state, basically. So we're coming out of that either sympathetic activity or the overwhelm dorsal vagal activity into a more ventral vagal centered state. So that's the neurology of it. But like you said before, it's where when we're in a relaxed state, we're actually open. When we're in a stress state, we're closed. So we we don't have the same capacity to see options. Maybe there's different ways around, you know, this problem solving, whether it's a deal or whether it's something you need to sort out with your work or a project, whatever it is, if we're in stress, it's virtually impossible to think of anything outside the box. So yeah, if we can come back to that, that that slowness, which really is the key, um to get that centeredness, then then we have a more open, regulated state, and then we have options.

SPEAKER_03 42:09

We can we can see things from a different perspective. Sure. That's key.

SPEAKER_00 42:16

Yeah, that's have you done um any of David Hawkins' work, the scale of consciousness stuff at all? Yeah. So that for me is just so powerful where we get to what you're if we're gonna put it on the scale of consciousness, is coming back to neutrality. And I always explain to clients like when you're in neutral space, and this is what you were saying, was you have so many more options. If I'm a little bit to this side, which is more negative, it's not good or bad, negative or positive, it's just I have less options available because I'm leaning to one side. But if I'm in neutrality, I'm really able to see all sides. And now I'm able to really activate more of my power because I've now got full range of choice and full range of motion, essentially, without being caused, you know, from the reptilian brain to slow you down or to stop you.

SPEAKER_02 43:02

Exactly. Yeah, because it's a survival, it's a survival breaking system. Yeah. So yeah, if you're in that, it's not gonna help you see options apart from where's the next exit.

SPEAKER_00 43:11

Yeah, yeah, that's your strategy, exactly. And so um let's kind of just speak to some some solutions, and then I want to get into the men's work stuff with you as well. But um, because I'm kind of finding myself going, okay, Jans, I do things uh with you, like come and see you on a regular basis. Um, but there's many, many tools out there. So maybe if you could just speak to some of the most helpful things and in your experience for men in particular that you use or you recommend to clients, because even when I'm lying on on the bed in the practice and I'm waiting for you to come and crickety crack me, I'm hearing you say really cool things to people all the time. Um, and I'll give you an example, one that really blew my mind. Um, I'd come to you and I'd said, you know, Jens, I'm really struggling with um It feels like my Maya fascia, it's really kind of tight. And you asked me, Mish, do you drink coffee? And I was like, Nope, I don't drink coffee. It's it's not a thing. You're like, okay, and you went through all these things, and then eventually you said, How about cacao? And I was like, Huh. I don't usually drink cacao, but this last week um I was drinking a lot of cacao because it was recommended. And then you said, Yeah, Mish, but that's like messing with your adrenals and all of that. I was like, oh my God, how can that happen? And so I hear so many cool things that you just dropped that is incredibly helpful. And so I now temper my cacao use for that reason, because it's prying my nervous system as I learned because my body's very uh sensitive. And so maybe you could just speak to some of these really cool things that folks don't or might not be aware of. Now, before we continue, I wanted to say a big thank you to supporting our show. It really means a lot to me and to the world I see being created by people who watch and support this kind of compassion movement for men. Now, if something in this conversation has landed for you, if you can feel something inside shifting, that's no mistake. That's a part of you resonating to some of the truth that you're hearing. You see, every moment you choose a new thought, every moment you choose a new way of doing things, you're creating a new reality, a new version of yourself. And when a man does this type of work, people around him start to feel it. His family feels it. The way he provides, the way he chose up for himself, the way he loves his family, all of it responds because he made a new choice. That's what's available for you on the other side of your old belief systems and programs. So if you're ready to find out what working with me directly or in a group looks like, by applying things that I talk about on the podcast, there's a link in the description. Book a call with me, let's talk. I would love to chat. Also, if you'd like to drop a comment below, tell me what's landed for you today in this show or what you would love to hear more about. We read every single comment that comes through and it helps shape the content that we're bringing to you in this community. And of course, guys, if you're getting value, remember to like, subscribe, and to share this with someone who you might think this is going to change their world as well. You never know. And so I really appreciate your support. That's it for now. Let's head back to the show, guys. Thanks again.

SPEAKER_02 46:26

Basically, what I'm trying to do, what I'm when I'm when I'm seeing someone, I'm trying to figure out why the system is in defense. So when they come and see me, the spine and nervous system is all misaligned, it's all twisted, it's all intentioned and and and blocked. Why? Because it it's doing it for a reason. So there's many, many different causes. Um I think the majority of people are dysregulated through just the non-stop, fast-paced life that we're in. And then it's it's kind of reinforced through having to have long-term high energy levels. So we abuse things like coffee, um, tea, even sugar, cacao, chocolate, you know, anything that stimulates will create this sympathetic state. And it it feels good when you're in that sympathetic uh activity. It's like, ah, the opiates are going and you, you know, you're you're on. But the problem is our systems are not built to be in sympathetic activity for more than five minutes.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

Wow, five minutes, honey.

SPEAKER_02 47:29

Yeah, like it it's if we're in chronic sympathetic activity, then eventually it leads to burnout. Right? So we need to be able to come in and out, have flexibility with our systems that we come in and out of sympathetic when we need to. Doesn't we doesn't mean we we can't be there. When we go and exercise, we go into sympathetic activity. So it it's it can be very healthy, but then also you can over-train and you can burn yourself out through exercise. So it it's it's like, okay, how do we how do we create that centered balance? And then when we need to push into say high-level stress, maybe you've got a meeting or you've got a deadline or whatever, that's fine. You can push up and ramp up that intensity. But then the key is coming back. So um, firstly, what are triggering you into that sympathetic sympathetic activity like the stimulants, like too much training, like too much blue, blue light, vertical scrolling, vertical scrolling triggers the dopamine system, activates the brain. Vertical, sorry, horizontal um uh tracking, like reading a book, calms your nervous system down. Right? So vertical is activation, horizontal is calming. So sympathetic and and and and and vague. Um so there's so many things in our world, our modern world, that actually is designed to stimulate us. Blue light from the screens, it's all about keeping us online. Vertical scrolling, online dopamine. You know, you're searching for the next the next like, the next comment, the whatever. So it takes it, it keeps us engaged. Um it keeps our brain on alert. And that that's the the downside of it. So then we don't sleep. We we wake up three or four in the morning because our cortisol is kicking in and like I can't sleep, what the hell? Then you go back to sleep an hour later, you wake up tired. So what the first thing you do, get up and have a coffee because you're exhausted. That spikes your cortisol even more. So it's just chronic dysregulation throughout the whole day, and we we never recover, basically, is what's happening. Um then you've got work that's stressful, you're in traffic, you know, you've got news that you're listening to that's stressful, the world's falling apart, you know, all of these things. So essentially everything is is in uh designed to keep us in a stressed state. And when we're in a stressed state, we don't think clearly, we are not creative, we don't heal, our body is in a in a state of um yeah, fight and flight, which is you cannot heal and be in a state of defense at the same time. It's impossible. Impossible. So, you know, there's so many downstream effects of being in that state. So the key is like, how do we recognize when we're in a fight-flight state or we're in a shutdown state? Number one. So having that that third person perspective awareness to go, oh, I'm I'm in that state. And so personally, what I notice is my my breathing starts to tighten, right? So my body goes into more of a shutdown, it goes and is is watching for danger. So it's been quiet. It's my breath actually tightens and quietens. It gets very shallow, but I don't breathe very quickly either. So I lose, I lose my breath. And then if it's there for too long, I literally can't breathe. I have to actively stretch the diaphragm, consciously start breathing it again. Otherwise, I'm just stuck in this loop. And I feel heat rise in my system. I might get sweaty, my mouth gets dry, my eyes get dry, you know, my contacts they start getting sticky, things like that. They're all physiological signs that my body is in a state of stress. So they're kind of the uh the acute kind of symptoms, but you could have insomnia, you could have memory problems, you could have irritability, um, slow digestion, you know, and then long-term chronic is is is a whole other level as well. But they're kind of the immediate things that people tend to notice, tension, um, and and locking down in the body. So there's that, and then then what do we do to change that? So really I found the the the biggest thing that we can do as an individual without having to have anybody else or anything else is our breath. And our breath is one of the only autonomic, automatic functions of the body that we have direct conscious control over as well. So it's it's the interface between our conscious and unconscious parts of ourselves, both mentally, emotionally, and physically, physiologically. So that that would probably be the biggest thing that people could do as a takeaway. It's it's very simple. I really love the the physiological psi technique. I don't know if you've heard of that before.

SPEAKER_00 52:24

Uh I've heard of it, but maybe you can just give us a a demonstration because that's I I teach a little bit as well, but it's so helpful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:31

Great. Well, Dr. Andrew Huberman from the Huberman Lab kind of made this um quite quite popular, and he you know he does lots of review of of current research and stuff that's really effective for people. And uh it's really simple. And that's what I like about it, because a lot of breath work, you know, talk about breath work, is actually sympathetic activation. So if we do say Wim Hof breath or we do holotrophic breath, we're in we're we're pushing the system, we're increasing the energy in the system, we're increasing the qi, the oxygenation, blowing off CO2, uh, and it's actually pushing the system into a sympathetic state. So it's it's increasing energy, which can be amazing. And I've I've I've you know led a lot of holotrophic breath and Wim Hof stuff as well. But I've also realized that it's only good for a certain range. And if you are burnt out, or if you're exhausted, or if you're already in sympathetic, it's not gonna help. It's gonna make it worse. Okay, so it's it's really important to then recognize okay, I need to do the opposite, not more yang power, I need more yin softness. And so the the physiological size is really, really amazing because it's it's so simple. All you have to do is breathe in for a count of two deeply. So the max, and then take a little bit more just to expand that extra amount, and you're holding it there. So breathing in for two, take an extra breath, hold for one, and then you breathe out slowly for a count of four. You can do you can do longer out breath, but the key is that it's twice the length of the in-breath. So you're breathing in for two, pause for one, and out for four. Um, I use this in my meditation a lot, actually. I I do a slower version where I'll breathe in for a count of four, full. One, two, three, four, and then I hold for one, and then I breathe out for a count of eight. And then what I will do is naturally just lengthen that out breath little by little each breath. And it's not forcing it at all. It's like the next breath I'll do four in, one hold, nine out, and then ten out, and then eleven out, and then by the by the end of 20 minutes, I'm counting 50 out. So super long, slow out breath, and you you your system just goes complete relaxation, complete relaxation, because the the slow out breath is what's actually triggering the vagus nerve. Also the deep stretch when you breathe deeply, the diaphragm, the the vagus nerve is actually infiltrated into around the diaphragm. And so when we stretch the diaphragm deeply, we're actually stretching the vagus nerve and activating the vagus nerve, which means that it starts breaking the system even more. So it slows it down even more. The other incredible benefit of the slow out breath is that the increase in CO2 levels in your blood actually helps to decouple the oxygen from your red blood cells so you can utilize the oxygen. Does that make sense? So when we breathe out, there's actually a lot of oxygen that we breathe out. It's not just CO2. Actually, most of what we breathe out is oxygen. So we've got plenty of oxygen in our air, plenty of oxygen in our blood, but we can't access it. So when we have the breath holding, so like with the Wim Hof breath, for instance, it's the holds where that's where the magic happens. Like you do your 30 breaths intense, you do a 15-second in hold, and then you do a one, two, three, four-minute outhold. And it's that that outhold where the CO2 increases, and that's where you can start accessing the oxygen. And that's the calming um trigger for the whole nervous system. So it's just a very simple breath, you don't have to think about it. You just breathe in for two, hold for one, a little bit more, and then breathe out for four. And so I'll do that during the day if I'm driving somewhere, or if I'm walking, or even if I'm working when I'm adjusting, and I notice that my breath's tightening up. I'll just just start doing that consciously. And I find it very, very helpful.

SPEAKER_03 56:48

So that that's that's really a very powerful, easy thing to take away for sure.

SPEAKER_00 56:55

Thank you for that. Well, number one. Number two, you just blew my mind in helping me understand that Wim Half is gonna make it worse if you're in that stressed state. And I've heard this so many times, and it's so helpful because I'm like, why did I never res not that I didn't resonate, but I I mean I did Wim Hof, and then it was it was great. But I would there were times where I was just like, this doesn't feel like it's helping. It's making me more stressed. Especially when, you know, when I first came to the island, there was, you know, change of culture, change of language, change of environments. I came during COVID, so that was a thing. And then uh losing my dad, you know, grieving, and not just anyone, the loss of a parent, which I know you've been through as well, is hectic. And so all these things, and a lot of people's like, do breath. And I'm like, do breath work. It doesn't feel right. Um, and so that's incredibly helpful. Not to knock what Wimhoff does, I think it's great, but it's all about understanding when to use the right tool. And a hammer is not always useful in every single situation, right?

SPEAKER_02 58:01

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And that that goes goes the same rule for any extreme um thing. So, like for instance, if you're in a sympathetic burnout state, if you're exhausted, doing an ice bath is not a good thing to do. If you're exhausted, doing a high temperature sauna is not a good thing to do. If you're exhausted, doing a uh a fast, intermittent fasting is not a good thing to do. Because you're gonna deplete your system even more. Right? So there's a big difference between uh distress and what's called EU stress, EU stress. So we have stress is the word, then it's how our body responds to the stress, which is an external force that's pushing us out of our center for some reason, whether it's chemically, physically, emotionally, whatever it may be. If if our system is unable to adapt and deal with whatever stress there is in the outer world, then it turns into distress. Okay, it's it's it's disin disintegrates, it causes problems in our system. We can't handle it. But if we have whatever stress it is and we're able to adapt to it, we can deal with it, then it is a U stress. Okay, so the the difference is um you know, you you uh have a car accident and you have a physical stress, which is the impact of your car accident, your body can't handle the force that came through your body. And so it breaks, it literally breaks. So you have broken bones, you've got ruptures, you've got these sort of things. So your body was unable to adapt to the external force that came into your system, so it became a distress, destructive. Versus you go to the gym and you train in a healthy way, your body is under stress, but the response is it was able to adapt, it then heals stronger, and then you come back the next time you can lift more weight. So that's a U stress. So it's it's that kind of balance, and it's the key is to be able to understand where am I at on this scale? Am I in a in a stress state where I need to actually do more calming things and more yin practice versus yang power practice? Or is it because I'm just a bit tired and a bit lazy and I need to actually bring up the energy, and then once I've done that, I'm gonna feel great. It's it's it's just distinguish distinguishing those two things. Um, and that takes just self-awareness, you know. And I often would visualize, close my eyes, and I'd say, visualize going to the gym, visualise going, whatever it was I was gonna do, exercise. And then just see how my body responded to that visualization. Is it like afterwards, oh yeah, it feels great, or afterwards I feel like okay. And I would use that as my indicator and say, all right, no, I just need to, I just need to take it easy. I'll go for a walk, I'll do some yoga, I'll just do some, you know, physiological side breathing, meditation, just some gentle stuff, and not judge myself for being lazy or you know, not doing enough, not being strong enough, whatever it is. And then another day I'm like, oh, actually, no, I'm just being lazy and I need to go and do some get your ass into the gym, get training. And then afterwards you feel good. So yeah, kind of it it it's about giving yourself permission to not always push, push, push, because I think that's a very typical masculine thing to do, push through it. And if you don't do it, you're being soft. Whereas actually, we need to have the softness and the hardness as well. We can't have one or the other. Because eventually something breaks if you just keep pushing, pushing, pushing. And if you don't push at all, then you become really soft. Like literally, you know, if you don't do any exercise, you've you got nothing.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:57

So it's it's about that, navigating that that balance between the yin and the yang, the softness, the hardness.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:06

Yeah, fantastic. Because and I think that leads us nicely into the men's work. Um, because maybe one of the other things you do, just for folks listening, um, and if you ever are on the island of Ibiza, go down to Jans's practice, he's got a cool red light sauna. Uh, we won't go into that today, but that is excellent. I've spent time there as well. It's awesome. Um, notes to self don't go when I'm exhausted after this conversation.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:29

Well, actually, because the reason why I have the red and infrared light is because it's actually yin sauna.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:35

Uh the the infrared is, yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:37

The in sauna, it's very low temperature, but you still get incredible benefits. But if I did it, the traditional sauna, it would blow me out for sure. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:45

Yeah. And so spending time there is just for me bliss. Um, and I think super helpful for folks to just research and go into, and we can perhaps do that on another episode. But um it kind of leads us nicely just into talking a little bit about call it men's work. The word, the famous word men's work. Um, whenever I work with my clients, I I don't ever give them homework, I give them home play. So I think again, sometimes we get into these states very much the under the banner of pushing, which is we've got to work, you know, we've got to do hard stuff in order to get a gain, you know, no pain, no gain. And the guidance that I have a lot with my men that I work with is when you start to sit in the seat of your soul and meet yourself, you start to see how beautiful you are. And this has become a journey of beauty. And I often sit in session with my clients and there's tears running down our face because someone has untangled something in their family that's been stuck for 12 years, and we're just like, wow, is this even possible? How cool is this? And these aren't tears of sadness, they're tears of joy because honestly, it's just like wow, I can't believe that whatever it is. And so I've had clients say to me, Mish, Madakai, he came for burnout, and after our three months together, he was like, Mish, my my kids are saying to me it's so nice to have our dad back. Like that's that's priceless stuff, you know?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:18

Absolutely. That's generational change.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:22

Yeah. And to hear like your kids say that, it's so important because otherwise we hand down this what I call invisible inheritance, right? That generational programming. You're giving your kids stuff that they don't need, um, like all the old programs. And so maybe you could just speak to your journey around men's work. What is it that's you know, how have you approached that and why has it been beneficial for you?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:49

Yeah, well, um I think my journey really started when my uh ex-wife left uh 2016. We were together since 18, so we're there together from 18 to 38, 20 years. And yeah, she she left. And it was as if someone had put those CPR pedals on my heart and woke me out of this coma that I'd been in for many, many years, a decade, probably longer. And like the pain of the rupture was this deep awakening into my heart. It was it was just numb. Didn't feel anything. What was the point of anything? You know, it was just complete disconnect. And that was a survival strategy to deal with life, to deal with um relational dynamics with my mother, and you know, typical stuff that we all we all carry. And um that was really kind of the start of of my journey into like trying to understand what happened to. the relationship and you know not wanting to repeat the same patterns and even though it was incredibly painful I was just so grateful to actually be feeling pain again and it was just like oh god like wow and it w I think you mentioned it before it's like this there's this deep sort of beauty in the pain you know like there's it's almost yeah it's like the tears of gratitude of grace of of release of the depths of the pain and really that that the depth of life is is the deepest point of pain to the highest point of joy and that that's the that's the richness of life you know and if we're always just living on this superficial layer of like not going into the deeper layers of feeling then we don't feel pain but we also don't feel the joy we're just numb and we're just working to to avoid or distract ourselves or whatever habit that we have that that does that. And so yeah I kind of I started my journey going to the Amazon jungle I went deep into plant medicine for many many years. So I would put a warning out there just to you know take take it with with care and awareness. It was an incredible journey at the same time and it was definitely a big part of my my awakening and opening um but I've I've since I I think I spent seven years in in that plant medicine psychedelic space I was facilitating and everything and since the last few years I've I've pulled right back out of that and realized that you know w when we're utilizing something outside of ourselves to access something within ourselves then we're giving our power away and it can be an incredible tool can be an incredible tool to give us a glimpse of what's actually possible but it's not the real thing. You know it's it's like a a simulation of the real thing and it can actually be a distraction and it can actually be a complete taking you off your path completely. So um and I've learnt all of this through you know my partner Sarah that we've been together for a couple of years now and she was the one that brought these ideas to me and I was like no no no it's it's amazing it's great it's good it's really helped me and and and and it did but then I I I I really realized with working with her she's been my greatest um catalyst actually because the the feminine the power of the feminine is that well just being in relationship as well we're both mirrors for each other we're there to hold space for each other we're there to have open hearts with each other and really the the healing happens in relationship right the the trauma happens in relationship and healing happens in relationship. So you know you can do as much work as you like on your own which is what I was doing. I was doing all this work on my own thinking yeah I'm really getting there I want to become the person I want to attract in my life and then I'll be then everything will be good I had no idea I had no idea the plan is foiled I mean defin I definitely you know made massive inroads into understanding myself and the self-awareness and you know all the learnings that I that I had along the way but it wasn't until I really met Sarah and with her own journey as well and her own path that we came together and we were both ready to really take it to the next level and it's been incredibly beautiful like the depth of love and connection and understanding and awareness has been really really powerful but at the same time the incredible depth of pain triggers shadows oh my god I I had no idea I thought I'd done all of this work and then being in relationship and Sarah's just like you got to look at this you know like this this is this is a shadow this is a a traumatized part that's driving your life you know and the the need for for validation the need to be liked by my social peer group rather than just being me you know having to prove myself these sort of things which I was completely unaware of until she was like hey you know this is going on I'm like no what are you talking about? It's crazy. And it wasn't until slowly slowly slowly coming out of this kind of slumber because the the traumatized parts are are in their program. They're not they're not processing things things in real time. It's just programs reactivating and so it's very hard to come out of this program slumber into like oh actually what's going on here? Oh my God really and it's very painful actually to start seeing that because what else is happening that I'm not aware of and that's driving my life that's also sabotaging my happiness my success my whatever it is and um so yeah I mean being in a relationship being triggered that's where the juice is and as much as we don't want to know about it that that's that's where it's at um and it's it's not easy. It's not easy but if we can use these nervous system regulation strategies and have agreements with our with our partners to then not go into this snowballing or at least one of us can kind of patent interrupt once we get into that habit and no let's just patent interrupt oh this is happening we have a safe word whatever it is that uh it's like oh I'm in that loop okay come out of that loop where am I at and then come back with more openness and and desire like you you both of you need to be dedicated to wanting to be working on on yourselves and and the relational container as well together. And it takes a lot of patience a lot of compassion you know I've gone very deep into very old traumas when I was a child you know just stuff that I thought I'd dealt with really and and one thing I really realized too is that there's always a gift in in the in the shadow right so that for instance my my parents were always fighting about money always problems around money so I never felt safe around money I never felt safe around resources and I remember making this pact when I was like nine or something thinking watching them fight about money you know they'd finally made some money and they spent it all and then the next week they're fighting about it again and I was like what are you what what are you doing? Like it's not it's not that complicated just don't spend so much you know like and so I had that nine year old mind was like I'm never going to be like you and I made this pact to myself that I would never be like that. And so the gift in that is that I didn't go down that path and I I really worked on creating you know a successful business studying and building myself but then what Sara had brought to my attention was that a lot of my practice the success of my practice was built on these shadows of not having enough and guilt for not being of service to my mother. And so you know my my position as a chiropractor perfectly filled the void of you know I want to have safety around finances so I create a successful business successful practice so I have enough resource to feel safe in the world. But it's also completely perfect balanced around the shadow of not you know not um not having enough in terms of feeling unsafe so it's coming from a lack and also you know the the the feeling of feeling guilty for not being able to help my mother and so I'm helping all these people all the time to try and alleviate the guilt that I felt as a as a child. So I really had to to to deal and process all of that which is deep stuff and poor Sarah had to be there supporting me through all of that as well you know so it's it's not an easy journey it takes courage and from both people but it's for me it's the only the only way is through you know otherwise we're just we're just stuck in our loops. Yeah what else what else where else do we go?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:11

Do we keep sabotaging do we keep using alcohol do we do whatever we need to do to avoid or do we sit with it stay with it and then process it feel it and having someone like yourself I think is fundamental you know having a coach to be able to guide the process is really really important there's so much there and thank you thank you thank you like I was just listening and that's why like yes like um I feel like I got kicked out of some medicine communities energetically let's just say because I kept challenging the that exact exact notion of um it's outside of yourself.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:56

So I too have done the ayahuasca the buffer the Wachuma the mushrooms the cannabis the whatever like it's all it's all cool and there's no judgments there's never any judgment around these journeys honestly um but on the theme of homework I felt like I came home with more work to do honestly because I had these pile of things and I was like well what do I do with them now like I have no idea there's so much here especially when I went down the five MEO routes of Buffalo and then I had to like knit my reality back together because it's so dissociating and dangerous. And so there's been many a time where people have come to me because I did my plant medicine journeys in like 2018 and just after my dad had had a stroke I'd broken up with my ex-partner of like six and a half years and I'd wanted to do the the medicines for a while and I kind of just binge them for the for the next few years and um it took me a hell of a long time to come back to myself let's say now because I was sharing a little bit about my journey during the time and now people will send their moms or friends or whatever and they're like go and speak to Mish before you take the medicines also very much so when I'm working with clients it's like hey do you realize that you're exactly as you said you're taking something outside of yourself to find yourself which by definition means that if it's outside of you it's not going to be inside and it's the power part that is the most important. And I think that's where the underestimation happens because ultimately we're underestimating our own power our own ability our own everything. And there's been so much gunk on top of that to date but because of where we are in this time space coordinates of energetics and the way the planet is and where we're moving in the solar system all of that's been shaken out.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:56

All of it. Very much so as without so within right and we saw this even with your practice like you got hammered by the floods Denny Bita hammered. And that's just an example of what was happening to people's wills and lives internally because it's like no truth truth truth truth truth it needs to come out exactly and it's not going to stop because we take a a cup of ayahuasca or a little something of plant medicine now. I'm not saying that those modalities don't help in end of life or severe depression or addictions. There's a hundred percent place for that and I'm glad that you know it's now passed FDA rulings I think we're now into legislation where it can be used for like deep PTSD and I'm full on for that. But recreationally and guys doing it in a club and all of that it's just mess. It's absolute mess. Yeah and I think this is what people need to come to for me and I think that's why I got kicked out of these like communities because I was like where's your responsibility my friend yeah you you're not backing yourself.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:57

Yeah and and it can end up being escapism as well. So I was actually facilitating Buffo for several years. So I I I've been on that journey very deeply I've probably had 80 Buffo journeys myself. Oh wowzers okay I did one right yeah yeah yeah I I honestly feel that since I stopped I'm now integrating the several years that I was diving deep into all of that. And it it's an incredible powerful tool to shift things to change neurological patterning resets you know default mode network reset to a different way but there's a point at which once you've got the message put the telephone down you know it's a famous famous quote that that once you receive the message you've got to put it down and you've got to do the work and the work is the integration the work is the shadow work like like you just said before that these these substances can help uncover what's going on but unless you're actually doing the work which is the everydayness the Tuesday morning when you're you know getting irritated by your your child or the traffic or whatever it is that chop wood carry water stuff that's where the work is it's not you know on ceremony and you're feeling amazing in that moment that's great it's a peak experience it's the same peak experience with breath work. You can do the same thing you can escape doing these things that the the the challenge which is what my partner brought to me was I was I was working in peak experiences the whole time. I was looking for the next peak experience and whether it was going to the gym power on peak experience breath work power on go to intense sauna power on ice bar power on you know like all of these things uh plant medicine it was all about peak experiences and it wasn't about the everydayness of how do you integrate the the awareness that that it brings you and actually go within yourself again that that that's that's the hard work and that that's what I feel like I'm been doing since you know these last three years or so. Very important to do so it's not that it's bad to do it but you need to put the telephone down and do the work. Wood carry water and like you said about the the practice being flooded the realization I had was that because my practice was built on the foundation of guilt and lack the structure was not able to hold what what was being built on top of it. And so these things come in to like like break down these false structures these structures built on on you know limitations and fear and lack and all of these things to break it down to the truth and to to rebuild it from a solid base rather than something of illusion something of yeah peak experience and then then it's solid then you're you're clear and clean. You know it's a very different place to be and it's incredibly traumatic when you see what you've built just start you can pull down and you pull down the insight and everything you know I I identified myself with my practice and that that was me. And so the destruction of that was the destruction of me. You know all of those those sort of things. But um as painful as it has been and and is still processing it's incredibly important to move through it otherwise we're just stuck in these loops. Don't don't progress. So it doesn't matter what you do the next relationship you get into it's the same pattern. It's the same problem. It's the same and so you know the common denominator who's that it's you know so we've got to stop and re recognize okay well if this keeps happening then maybe I need to stop and look at it. Um and maybe I need to take a different approach on it too. Maybe I need to not be pushing maybe it needs to be staying still and just being rather than yeah always trying to get over there.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:13

I heard um and we'll kind of close on this um Scott Galloway said you know men don't understand that in his view I disagree with it but he said in his view the most important decision you'll make as a man and I love you Scott by the way you're great but just this part. He said the ba the greatest decision you'll make as a man is who you partner with. And I think that's important. But I would say that's probably second. For me the greatest decision you will ever make is to work on yourself. Because you can have a shitty partner and you'll learn a ton of lessons and still be stuck with the patterns like you just said and so I keep watching these gurus these guides these whomevers go look here look here outside outside it's the la relationship it's the ayahuasca it's the fancy car it's the amazing job the practice the whatever and spirit keeps going yeah like look within and I think that's why I get so inspired with my work because the moment we start to do that that's where the beauty becomes untold and I often start my sessions with men saying I have like the best job in the world because I get to hang out with these amazing people who have number one taken the step to go yes I'm willing to work with a guide on the side not the guru not the yes Mish knows everything. I don't of course I don't but to be that person on the side to go hey I love you enough to tell you when you're full of shit and also I'm gonna love you enough to tell you you're not seeing your beauty. And I think that's what excites me about this paradigm going forward of people like you and I willing to step out and Sarah by the I know what she's working on a really cool project as well just bringing awareness into the self to the self to the self and part of that then includes the body as well which is the nervous system and then that extrapolates to food etc etc Jans you have been amazing. Thank you so much for hanging out um on this beautiful afternoon with me. Is there a kind of last kind of word that you would like to share with folks listening where can folks find you aside from when you come to the island make sure that you go and see Jans in the center of Ibiza he's close to the the port so even if you're going to Formanterra there's no reason to not go and see you for a sauna or a crack. That's what I do as soon as I get off the plane so I'm always uh in the practice coming to get adjusted but um maybe just a last message for folks and then also um a little bit of where we can find you.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:46

Yeah I I I just want to recommend that the the the juice of life is in in this journey, you know, doing this work. It's it's not easy but nothing that's that's worth anything is necessarily easy you know so I think go there have the courage to to feel deeply even though it's painful it it will you know it will change it will move through you. It's not gonna be forever even though it feels that way and I've definitely been in that a lot is this never-ending grief feeling you know that sort of stuff so it it the the key is to feel to feel it and if you have uh uh your partner woman there to hold you in that in that feeling then that I mean that's the best thing you could ever have really you know to have someone there to to be there with you in that not to fix it not to change it just to be there with you and to feel it you know so that's the real work I mean that's it I don't think there's anything more than that if you have someone like yourself who can guide people in that then that you know that's even more turbocharge the whole process and um yeah accelerate your growth and pull out those sabotaging patterns and whatever it is that's holding you back and yeah step into your real true self and um true power. Yeah. So yeah if people want to find me in in a beta town central chiropractical beetha is my chiropractic practice.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:26

I also uh lead monthly men's hikes um throughout the island so it's like a walking men's circle we've been doing that for about a year or so now and on that we we do you know focus on a certain theme so maybe it's on um grief or maybe it's on stepping into our power and our mission or whatever it is and so we focus on a certain theme and we do some exercises during the hike and and yeah with some really good men and yeah enjoy nature so you can find me there on um the men of the earth on Instagram um yeah and just come and say hi good good to meet you my friend I have so much love for you and the work that you do um I love seeing the relationship between you and Sarah as well you guys do such a great job of holding space having fun and also navigating all the challenges I've seen with a little bit of it as well so thank you for being here thank you for saying yes um and yeah maybe we'll have a deeper episode on the red light and the water and everything else yeah of course yeah more to talk about yeah exactly thanks so much for having me all right thanks a bit see you soon chamage bye