Between 2 Urns - Alan Howell

Episode 1’s guest is St. Paul resident, Alan Howell. Alan brings more than 25 years of aviation design experience—and a decade of diverse creative work—to his role as Senior Airport Architect with the Metropolitan Airports Commission. Guided by a vision to create exceptional airport experiences that help Minnesota thrive, he leads the design and redevelopment of airport facilities with a strong emphasis on sustainability, accessibility, and cross-disciplinary collaboration. Alan has contributed nationally to national programs, including chairing a leading guide on airport terminal restroom design and advancing conversations on accessibility beyond ADA standards. A past president of AIA Minnesota’s Saint Paul chapter, he also serves on MSP Airport’s Arts & Culture Committee, helping integrate public art into airport spaces. Outside of work, Alan restores his historic Saint Paul home and performs in a post-punk band, Mucilage—bringing creativity to everything he does.

Between 2 Urns is hosted Youa Vang.
Technical support and editing is provided by Chris Koza.
Theme Song “Swaying Trees,” is written by Chris Koza.
Between 2 Urns is made possible by a grant from the Harlan Boss Foundation.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:01

Some conversations are too interesting to stay buried. Between two urns is where history meets humanity. Equal parts are reverent and insightful. Each episode digs up the stories, legacies, and lingering questions we leave behind. This interview-driven podcast brings you candid conversations with people whose lives, work, and passions shape the stories we carry forward in Ramsey County. From artists and educators to community leaders and unexpected voices, we explore what drives us, challenges us, and ultimately connects us. Blending humor, honesty, and a curiosity about the past and present between two urns proves that history isn't just something we inherit, it's something we live. Pull up a chair. The conversation is just getting started. We welcome today's guest, St. Paul resident Alan Howell. Alan brings more than 25 years of aviation design experience and a decade of diverse creative work to his role as Senior Airport Architect of the Metropolitan Airports Commission. Guided by a vision to create exceptional airport experiences that help Minnesota thrive, he leads the design and redevelopment of airport facilities with a strong emphasis on sustainability, accessibility, and cross-disciplinary collaboration. Allen has contributed nationally to programs, including chairing a leading guide on airport terminal restroom design, an advancing conversation on accessibility beyond ADA standards. A past president of AIA Minnesota's St. Paul chapter, he also serves on MSP Airport's Arts and Culture Committee, helping integrate public art into airport spaces. Outside of work, Alan restores his historic St. Paul home and performs in a post-punk band, uselage, bringing creativity to everything he does. All right, welcome.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Thank you. You're Alan Howell. Good to see you.

SPEAKER_03 1:53

Good to see you. I'd like people to introduce themselves.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

How do I do that?

SPEAKER_03 1:57

Tell me what do you do for a living?

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Okay, we're Americans, so we're not going to talk about salaries, but we'll talk about what we do because that's important.

SPEAKER_03 2:04

You know what? I didn't ask my friend her salary the other day, and she glossed over it, and I'm like, oh, and then I asked another friend once. I'm like, his friend or his father passed, and he was talking about money, and I asked him how much, and he's like, I don't want to talk about that. I'm like, oh, money is weird for people. So money is weird for people.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Um, working for a governmental agency, ours is published. So folks know what we make, whether that's good or bad. And you know, from my standpoint, it is what it is. So hi, you are. Hi, I'm Alan.

SPEAKER_03 2:33

So how much do you make Alan?

SPEAKER_00 2:35

So well, I think the important thing is when I'm out busking, I make zero dollars. It's really crazy. I'll be out there playing and playing. Um, we made seven dollars and fifty cents in the last six months. Of Spotify? Uh no, from Bandcamp. Oh, yeah, no, Spotify, we've had like like 69 listens so far.

SPEAKER_03 2:55

So that's five cents.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

And most of it's us. And it's it's less than a penny.

SPEAKER_03 3:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Um, they start apparently starting to dole out money after like a thousand plays, which equates to less than a penny.

SPEAKER_03 3:08

Did you know there's a band that made a silent album that they asked their fans to continually play and repeat, and then they use that money to fund their tour for those fans that did that for them.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

That is so smart. Did they threaten to play the the first album like both sides live? Oh, this is the really quiet part. On side two.

SPEAKER_03 3:31

This is Mike on.

unknown 3:33

All right.

SPEAKER_03 3:34

Let's get to it. So tell me about your work.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

My my work. Oh, so oh, so I should um hmm. I I usually try to apologize for myself, so I'm gonna try not to do that tonight.

SPEAKER_03 3:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Um, I'm Alan. Uh you and I have known each other for a while. We live in the same neighborhood, which is fabulous.

SPEAKER_03 3:52

I found out uh coincidentally, because you were showing me maps of the neighborhood, and I'm like, I live right there. And then you showed my colleague, Sam, and then you showed our mayor at the time, Mayor Carter.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

And he he runs by my house all the time.

SPEAKER_03 4:08

Current mayor. Um, lame duck is the term. Because he'll be we should not talk politics.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 4:15

That's not politics, it's just it is a thing.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

It's just then I'm gonna apply the label to everything, and then all of a sudden change a D to an F, and it's gonna be a terrible discussion we'll have. Alright, should we start again? No, because it's like gold.

SPEAKER_03 4:31

So I find I heard that once that there's traces of gold in fingernails. So if you're looking for a retirement plan, just uh save them.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Save the pretties. Really? Traces?

SPEAKER_03 4:46

We're all minerals, like yeah, okay. Okay. All right. So I was recently at the airport.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

You were at the airport. I worked at the airport, so you're Terminal Two. And I was at Terminal Two, and And that is that is just the that's the other terminal that's not the smaller airport or the St. Paul airport. That's just Terminal 2 at MSV. Excellent. Some folks confuse that every now and again. It's okay.

SPEAKER_03 5:09

How long have you worked for the Mac? Is it the Mac or Mac?

SPEAKER_00 5:13

It's it's well, it depends on what you're saying. I believe our old style guide used to say it's the Metropolitan Airports Commission or Mac. But there are newer folks who are changing our style guide. So I may have to be more flexible than I actually am. The funny thing, please, no one take offense to this. Um, it's the best international airport with chartered and scheduled service in at least the nine county metro area.

SPEAKER_03 5:35

Who would take offense to that?

SPEAKER_00 5:36

Uh like everyone I work with.

SPEAKER_03 5:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

So we'll cut that out.

SPEAKER_03 5:41

Sure. Okay. Once you're older.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

So I've I've worked I worked for the Mac for almost 20 years now and uh worked on campus. The first project I figured out I did was uh started in December of 1995. So almost 30 years. Now that was a model for Fire Risen Studios. There's no plug there, Bob, for a canopy out in front of Terminal 2, which was not constructed the way I built it for the architects who were doing the project. So I don't know if that actually counts of working on sites since 1995, but it's kind of fun to say it's been a long time.

SPEAKER_03 6:17

You were a contractor? Is that what you're doing?

SPEAKER_00 6:18

I was uh I was building models. I was uh sorry, sorry, at the time I was I was drawing some houses for for a gentleman uh who became a contractor. I was building models. We were doing some design build work with another firm, and I was uh programming um process control systems for my dad at the same time. Make ends meet. As everyone says, as well no. But as money good, as every architect says that as they come out of school, there were no jobs. Um no matter what year they come out of school, there are no jobs.

SPEAKER_03 6:50

Is that true?

SPEAKER_00 6:52

Yeah, it is. It's hard. It's hard. And then the economy, since I've graduated, did the same thing like this that it did since like 1968. I just got to experience that and I hadn't experienced that before then. So uh yes, I worked with Mac for about um 20 years. The first real projects I got to do was one was with Shea Architect on F Concourse, it was a small retail shop, but it doesn't exist anymore. And it was actually on Red Concourse at the time.

SPEAKER_03 7:17

Which doesn't exist anymore either. We just call it something different. What is it now? E?

unknown 7:21

F.

SPEAKER_03 7:22

F, okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

So peer C became F.

SPEAKER_03 7:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

It became red first.

SPEAKER_03 7:27

What do you think about the constant change that's happening at the airport? I feel like every time I go there there is a change. And that's a constant in life in general, right? But at the airport, it's like it's new every day.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

You know, I I I wonder about that a lot. If you talk to a lot of airport operators and designers for airports, airports are changing all the time because we usually have fairly large building programs that build, and then by the time you're done with that, there's actually another change that's needed elsewhere because it's been 10 years or 20 years or 25 years, and the infrastructure is old or the airplanes have changed, or you know, you've been de-hubbed or you've been hubbed, or um, you know, there's been other growth or other changes. So that's kind of the norm. And I know it's a little bit strange for folks that fly all the time. I do wonder, does it feel like we're just always under construction and we're never done? Or does it feel like you're saying that every time I'm there, it seems like there's a new change or there's new construction? And, you know, I think a lot of our hopes are that the work that we're doing is beneficial for the passenger, number one, fits our long-term plans, uh, provides the opportunity for growth for the economic engine that the airport is, and surprises and delights you just a little bit because you didn't expect to see or experience what you were. I'll use the couple examples if I can. Um, one would be restrooms. You remember all the restroom program that we have going on and will have going on until 2068 when we start over again, is really about trying to make certain that we've got the right facilities in the right locations and the right size and that we can actually maintain them, that they're cleanable, that they're safer, that they've got the right lighting solutions, that they have the right opportunities for folks, whether it's a lactation room or a service animal relief or nursing room or, you know, a companion care room or a single-user restroom with change table, whatever it might be. Those things over time we've seen change and evolve, both within the industry, in larger groups like at the University of Minnesota or elsewhere, and we learn from what other folks are doing, and then we get to implement those things. And those changes take time. We started working on the restroom program in 2009, and it's 2025 today. And so that's a few years.

SPEAKER_03 9:41

Wait, so you started working on it in 2029, but then went to 2009, sorry. Yes. We're going into the future. So 2009.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

I I like to think about the future a lot. We'll get there in a minute.

SPEAKER_03 9:52

So 2009, but that's when you started, but when did you start building so the first one we started construction in early 2012?

SPEAKER_00 9:59

We bid our 2011 and 2012 projects almost simultaneously uh at near E8 and F8. Um, so both those concourses. And our first year was really background information gathering. What are we doing? What are we looking at? So we surveyed every single restroom that Mac owned. So we surveyed first. We found out what was really working, what was not working. A lot of things, such as stall doors opening in, doesn't really work when you've got luggage or you've got a child with you, or you're traveling or you're tired or whatever. And we started to develop certain calculations about distances between them, um, what size should they be in order to kind of take care of the numbers of people that are coming off the aircraft because that's kind of the bigger line that's going to be closed, rather than folks that have arrived and are waiting at the gate for two hours before their flight. Thank you, people. Uh, we're glad you're here early. But my goodness, there's other things to do than just sit.

SPEAKER_03 10:54

People have anxiety. They need to get there in time.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Traveling is scary.

SPEAKER_03 10:58

I know.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Well, the law is always really hard.

SPEAKER_03 11:01

Two years ago, I showed up to terminal two and it was an hour wait for TSA. My mom and I, when we traveled a couple weeks ago, there was nobody in line. So I was like, okay, yeah, I'm unsure what's happening here. I mean, there was the government shutdown at that time too.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

So the thing that we know, the thing that we're in control of is very little, but from a design standpoint, we're always looking to provide the right facility. Uh so for T1 and T2 both for checkpoints, we do uh modeling which shows simulations and visualizations to see how does the curbside work, to the check-in operations through TSA, knowing what their equipment looks like and what their expectations are for the percentage of passengers that may be pre-check or clear or clear pre-check or standard passengers or what have you. And so we try to design the right facility with a design day, you know, out here right now it's 2035 for T1, Terminal 1, which means at some point it's going to feel crowded again, even when it's not as busy as it should be. But that idea that the systems are working right is great because that means the facility was sized properly. Staffing showed up properly, uh, both for the airlines and TSA. Uh, that uh there was no snowstorm outside, uh, there wasn't enough construction on the roads in your way to get there, so you weren't stuck in uh too much additional traffic, and that we have programs in place that actually help folks know how to use and operate the airport to make certain that folks that have more fears or more challenges can actually test out systems before they arrive. So when they do go through security, it's like I've done this before, I know how to do this, and I'm less scared than I would have been otherwise. Um, so our navigating MSP is one of those programs. So facilities, staff, technology, and programs and TSA's technologies, we've seen improving throughput as well at checkpoints. And those are all good things that hopefully turned out better for you because folks are showing up and we've got the technology that's working and programs and staff. So building the right facility is a good start.

SPEAKER_03 13:04

Well, so uh we had a layover in Denver. Yeah. And bathrooms are stalls on one side, and you have to go around a wall to go to wash your hands. And I come out of the stall, I'm like, where do I wash my hands? I'd go all the way around, and I'm like, Well, I guess. And then another lady walked around, she's like, What a horrible design. She was talking to our friend. I'm like, if I'm saying it and she's saying it, we're not the only people thinking.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

You're probably not. Denver opened what 1992, 93 or so is a brand new airport. First brand new airport in in a very, very long time. It was the best design at the time. So it's it's interesting that things have changed dramatically from MSP's model. Is I've got stalls in the men's room, I've got stalls in urinals, and directly across from that, I have my trough type sinks where I can't leave my glasses because there's a nice counter in front that I can put my glasses on. So it's a really also a different way of thinking about how things are. But our idea was just that efficiency of I want to move you from one thing to the next, have you do that, grab your paper towel, dry your hands, leave. I don't want you dripping water across the floor to go find paper towels. Which can be dangerous, which can be very dangerous. And so that idea of efficiency, safety, you know, lighting your face so we know what we look like. And if I look tired, I look tired, but at least at least I know. And it's just like, and I don't look more tired than I actually am, which is which is a helpful thing too. So again, that that idea of um passenger-centric design, if you're thinking about it as a hospitality, that's the best thing. And at MSP, we make really good hallways, but I think based on where we are, we can also make really good memories, especially with the art program and including live performances and other things like that that happened. It's a fun place to be.

SPEAKER_03 14:53

You talked about the restroom programming. How did you integrate art into that and why did you integrate art into that? Number one. And then number two, it was right around this time last year that RCHS toured the airport. There are what three of us, four of us there. But the gentleman that came with us, Rick Woolhoit, who is on our board, he and I were talking the other day, and I mentioned that, and he's like, Oh, you know, I always think about when you go to the airport and all the effort that goes into doing art, but people are so busy and going through, do they appreciate it? Do they even notice? And I'm like, it doesn't have to always be I'm gonna sit here and notice it. It could just be an overall thing, but then why do you continue to do it if somebody is just in a rush? So tell me about how the restrooms came about.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

So so your your second question is asking about how do you judge success.

SPEAKER_03 15:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

So that's a that's a good question. So going to the first one, how did we get mosaics and a lot of cases into the program?

SPEAKER_03 15:51

Well, how did you come up with that idea?

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Well, we have a really good team, so I don't know if you know that. I don't know if you remember. Oh, I just winked.

SPEAKER_03 15:57

Yeah, but it's got it's gotta be somebody's idea that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

So there are lots of us that are at the table, and luckily a lot of us have seen a lot of things at a lot of airports. And so one of the things that that I like to do is look at precedence. What of this program type has happened elsewhere? Uh, you look at Miami, and Miami at their entry sequence, they had these very large glass pieces of art, maybe those were flowers. And then I think Tampa had big stick figure type art things. Okay. So that idea of art as an entry sequence existed. So again, not new.

unknown 16:33

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

And so either it's a very neutral experience throughout the entire thing with really good lighting and classical music overhead and no smells and yeah, uh paper towels that are right there, and baby changing table and everything that we need. And no sinks around the corner, and no no sinks, no sinks on the other side of a wall. Exactly. But that that entry sequence trying to confront you with something was what we'd talked about and what we thought about how do we draw you in? Because at the airport, we tend to, at least on the concourses that we have today, we tend to not have any walls available or any floor space available for art.

SPEAKER_03 17:10

Why is that?

SPEAKER_00 17:11

Because they're not our space, it's for advertisement? It's we've leased it out for advertising, or it's a tenant space, so it's the it's the front of uh concessions or the front of a news and gifts, or it's actually airline space, or it's an airline club. And so there's no space available. You look at Atlanta, Atlanta uses their entire tramway, um, their tunnel level for art, it's amazing. We don't quite have that either. So selfishly, we had a nascent art program that we had the master plan approved for in 2008, and no budget for things yet, which meant we had to ask permission to do things. Um, but we had a really resilient team, Diane Dombrock, Jana Webster, uh Phil Burke, myself, um, some others that were working both on the restroom program as well as actually moving forward than just floor mosaics. So we had a floor mosaic program. The last one we did was 2005, so this is now 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011. It's been a while since we've done any artwork. So the LRT had floor mosaics and some additional artwork at the T2 station. Terminal 2 had some that happened 2002 when it opened, and then our North Terminal expansion in 2005 had floor mosaics. But we didn't have anything else and we didn't have the program moving forward. So the the thinking was what can we do? Um, how do we do it? Why do we do it? If this is the only space that the airport controls, we need to provide passengers with flight information. And luckily, by that point in time, Mac had started providing all the flight information throughout both terminals. So all airlines showed up on the screens. Delta only had their own, Northwest at the time. United had a down near the gateway, a small black and white monitor. Like American had something similar, and and maybe it wasn't necessary.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

But um, knowing that we're replacing those systems, it allowed us to have all the flight information showing up at all locations. And so there's supposed to be about five hours worth of flights out there. And if I was going to Madison, I was going on you know, Delta, it was would show up here. If I was going on United, it would show up there. And it was alphabetical by city, very easy to find. Told me which gate, it told me, you know, what the airline is, if there was a partner airline, if it was on time, delayed, etc. All really good information. So that was built into the program. We said we have to provide that. We looked at trying to combine emergency telephones at the same location, AEDs. So you've got uh the ability to call 911 as well as grab an AED if you need to.

SPEAKER_03 19:42

So these weren't in place before.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

These were in places, but they weren't consolidated. And so the idea today with the consolidation, the first rounds of restroom upgrades through about 2015 consolidated about uh 17 restrooms down to about I think it's eight. And so on, I'll use F Concourse as the example. There were six restroom sets. Now there are two. Econcourse, there were five restroom sets. Now there are two. And they provided us with additional concession space. They provided restrooms that you walk past every four gates or so, so less than every minute 30 as you're walking normally. And so the right location my mom probably less.

SPEAKER_03 20:23

Maybe, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

I mean, if you're if you're running, you know, if you're if you're crawling, it may be less if you're distracted. So trying to consolidate things, provide better locations for other opportunities like concessions was really a big part of the 2014-2015 program, which which was great. We were consolidating checkpoints, we were rebidding an RFP, so AEDs, emergency telephones, flight information displays, and then we had the opportunity to have ancillary spaces involved as well. So on F Concourse, we have a service animal relief area near F1. We've got a lactation room, we've got a nursing mother's or nursing room down near F3, uh at F8. In the first sets, we had, you know, what's a single-user restroom look like? We called it family restroom and companion care, and now it's restroom. You lock the door, you use it, it's all good. And so it gave us the opportunity to rethink where we had these items scattered or sprinkled throughout so that from a wayfinding standpoint, here's a restroom. We did something overhead, we did something on the floor at the time. This is MacSpace. This is the airport providing you with this service. And it's about the only time that we got to do something for you. Otherwise, it was usually a tenant doing something for you, providing you the airplane. You're going to fly for the ticket you bought. You know, if you were buying coffee, you were not buying it from the airport. So it was an opportunity for us to take something and give back. And the master plan said that we should be incorporating art into programs. So we asked, we have this space as we walk in, we could design, have an art. us design something for that entry sequence and install that. And so we we thought about that and we talked to a lot of folks. Sue Jens with with the state of Minnesota was one of the folks that we talked with in terms of how do we go about uh go about commissioning this work? This is what we're thinking of. And she advised us very well, I think. And we ended up with two artists for the first two restrooms uh for the mosaics. And those were fabulous and really lucky for us because it taught us that if we had had one artist design everything and do all the fabrication and installation and do that for the next hundred sets through 2068, um it's probably not the same artist in 2068 as it is today. So what we actually found was it was about the same cost to have a new artist do every single new set of restrooms. Which is just fabulous. It does it it allows us to expand and invite more of the community in to help represent what is Minnesota like.

SPEAKER_03 23:00

Coming from an artist's standpoint too when the same artists are rewarded the same thing over again it becomes a monopoly where you're just like how do I get a part of that you know only one person can be part of this program and I think to be equitable is so much more important than that.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

And the things that we've learned most recently I think um Ben Owen's current director of MS Arts at MSP and he brought in for our selection for the arrivals level an artist work that were paintings and she was not a mosaic artist. And so pairing her with a fabricator and installer was a great piece. She worked to make certain that it matched exactly what her vision was but she was not a mosaic artist. We had mostly mosaic artists up to that point doing work for us. And so that was a that was a bit of a departure too and expanded the network of folks that we now have access to. We got there with the Rwork by doing hard things and working together and figuring out how do we do these processes.

SPEAKER_03 23:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Knowing that other groups have done these at other airports successfully it's not a terrible issue. We should be able to figure this out how do you measure what's successful with that so that was your second question of how do you actually measure success?

SPEAKER_03 24:11

I remember when Gail King posted about the the bathrooms.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

She was in town for a terrible event she was covering a child who had been abducted in Wisconsin came through MSP but she posted two videos here was that Instagram she posted it on and just talking about how she was just overwhelmed with how gracious the restrooms are in terms of trying to take care of people as they come in and come out.

SPEAKER_03 24:35

I feel there's a lot of intention with restrooms because that's what is most important to me when I'm at an airport.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

It's the number one and number two thing you might need in an airport my niece asked me she's like what's number three I'm like oh no both together I guess yeah some people have said that that's yeah is that your joke no but but I think you could go with a number three that's yeah but it you know number one and number two restroom humor it's all good it makes us laugh and we do various serious things but we don't necessarily have to take ourselves that seriously and we better enjoy what we're doing. But yeah I mean the the thoughtfulness how do we take care of you you know what do you what do you actually need why do you need it you know the difference between the men's room and the women's room is the men's room has urinals. Otherwise it's the same facility the the women's room should have double the number of fixtures as well but really the only difference is the men's room has urinals. And not saying we're all the same but we have very similar needs in terms of if I'm shaving I need a makeup mirror I need to be able to look at my face I need to be able to plug something in I need a shelf I need a mirror I need to be able to see I don't need shadows this way. If I'm washing my hands I need to be able to find the soap find the water I need to be able to pull a paper towel and dry my hands very simple things. But we were really lucky with the restroom program because we've got to have a thousand good ideas all in one spot and do them all simultaneously and we've we're working on a program right now to kind of update the original prototypes to where we are with our current learning because we've looked at that program as a continuous improvement program. So every time we do something we're gonna sit down and we're gonna figure out what did we learn from this? What are the things we did well and we changed from the last ones of this and what's the next thing we're gonna do to make this even better for folks. Because it's not for me it's not necessarily comparing ourselves with another airport. It's comparing ourselves with how well can we work, how well can we operate, how good can design be for folks and still make it affordable knowing that a lot of the restrooms that we build are going to be around 50, 60 years from now and that's not normal for most folks thinking about the age of things. You know, when's the last time you used a 68 year old restroom probably at the airpoint yeah which is just not anywhere else in the world and so it's I mean it's interesting that way of thinking what we do will last a long time and we tend not to change them dramatically.

SPEAKER_03 27:07

So outside of the restrooms and how do we measure how do you measure success and why even if somebody doesn't pay attention to it peripherally well absorb it.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

Like why do that if it's not going to be the important thing people want to get to their gates they want to they're anxious about getting through TSA absolutely and and business travelers used to show up just you know shortest amount of time they could get to before their flight and if they need to use the restroom certainly use a restroom but it's certainly not these things are not top of mind for folks that do this all the time. Hopefully there's benefit for folks that need to use a restroom quickly and are in a rush and do this all the time because we've made them very efficient. On the other hand we've heard from some travelers that they love the mosaics and they find that there are different ones at every single restroom set and they go on a little treasure hunt it's like fabulous you do that. You know we've given you the opportunity to do little scratch rubbings of the didactic for them absolutely I mean it's so there's there's a playfulness to it first off that just says if you want to wear your children out let's go see all the restroom mosaics um even at terminal one terminal two when your flight's about to exactly it's a good thing. But measuring success is really hard we get compliments and complaints about everything and that's great because we can learn from that data set. But how many of you have ever submitted a compliment or a complaint when you're traveling takes time. You have to be really committed to what it is you're gonna say and why you're gonna say it. And so that's one data set where you could measure compliments and complaints or where you could measure success or not success. And we've seen that in things where we have long lines and somebody complains about it because they had you know a 45 minute wait in a TSA checkpoint. And so we hear about that. That's great to hear about I don't know that that means that we designed anything wrong or that it was operated wrong. But on that particular day at that particular hour we can look at the data and we can go back to video and we can look at the analytics and we can find out why and how we can avoid doing that in the future. For kind of a memorable experience like art, I think if you were trying to hit 100% of the people with an experience we're probably in the wrong profession either architecturally or from an art standpoint. There are going to be a lot of folks that is it's not their reason to be at the airport is to enjoy the art. It's to get on the plane is to go visit grandma or go to a funeral or go celebrate Thanksgiving or whatever it might be. And there are some other bonuses there might be the coffee brand you like and so all of a sudden you're happy because you can buy your coffee brand you like some will be intentional others will not be intentional. The idea that we provide this other opportunity uh we talked a little bit about C18 on that tour. C18 is our short film space down I think it's between C17 and C19. And you know it's a space that's not a gate lobby. We're not asking you to pay anything we're showing short films. Sometimes we'll have performances there. If you wanted to just rest you could do that. If you wanted to plug your laptop in and charge it and do some work you could do that there. So providing experiences that are not just paid experiences you already paid a lot to get through security. You bought an airplane ticket that idea that you could sit in Sea Gallery on a day like today with the sun shining in on you and looking at artwork it's a fabulous opportunity. And some of the spaces that we've used for that used to be just very functional spaces. Sea gallery used to be a space where we charge carts and so a lot of the day and night you'd see carts charging there. They charge on an old bridge to eConcourse now but what would we do with that space? Well we turn it into a gallery with public seating C18 was a storage space that we had tried to lease out to food vendors for years. Nobody wanted it nobody bid on it. We had two of those spaces one is our trainer plane now and the other is C18. And so these were opportunities for space on a public level that allow us to have a different program than other airports. And I personally thought as as part of the team that put together the master plan and really thought about how do we integrate it into programs or how do we create new programs to do these things something like C18 was coming just after the Sea Gallery was a great opportunity because we had not seen another airport do this except for Miami doing pop-ups. And we're still programming it today and you know so it went live in spring of 2014 and here it is 2025. That's pretty cool. But it's also interesting because how do we judge success? So when I walk into the space and there are 12 people in there and two are watching I don't know that I feel bad. The other nine no 12 minus two would be 11 10 there we go. The other folks that are sitting in the space have had the opportunity to watch what's on screen you know it's closed captioned it's beautiful to look at it's not too loud so it's not overpowering you can hear it from wherever you are in the space we have telecoil underneath the floor so if you've got uh an implant or you've got a hearing aid and you've got your tea coil on you can also hear what's being broadcast which is great or you could just do work and just not be in the gate lobby and maybe the gate lobby is too full and you're in the last zone or you're a business traveler and you're in the first zone but you did not get on you know whatever it might be. We've given you that opportunity I think the mosaics and um the concourse art cases were the same type of thing of how do we take this max space that we have we've consolidated so much we've increased revenue generating capabilities on these concourses by consolidation how do we provide to folks something that shows a little bit more about Minnesota without you having to pay for something well I mean in the carousels and and the carousels exactly you don't have to pay to go see them don't have to pay to you no you could just you could just be a meeter greeter or just show up at the airport the care I mean the carousels were fun too well I brought my niece to come see them before like it officially launched and we walked in she's like where are the horses I'm like what are you talking about she's like I thought we were going to see a carousel there's that so it's not that can you tell me about the carousels about baggage claim about our arrivals hall yes certainly yeah and and it was it was fabulous because Taylor Taylor Luen um you were you were able to get us in contact with a a great artist so we should start we um we have 11 new carousels with the operational improvements program we started that construction um design construction about 2013 2014 I'm gonna do a sound interpretation for you so I apologize uh because this is the hockey goal from 1983 sound that was the sound that these pieces of equipment made um and had been making to announce the bags to announce that the bags were coming that the machine was going to start up and bags were coming as more about the machine starting up than telling you that there were going to be bags coming um because again it's a piece of industrial equipment it's rare that we get to stand around a piece of industrial equipment but at the airport you get to be you know on an airplane you get to be on a passenger boarding bridge you get to be around carousels um you get to be near you know conveyor systems cool um but yeah so we we had this wonderful um semaphore and horn sound and we talked about what could it be the joke in my mind was always well for Vegas it would be a slot machine paying out a lot of money wouldn't it and I don't know why they haven't done that because they could just they could do that. Why don't they do that? So we had this very long discussion about how could we create an environment so that you know that this very dangerous machine you should not be on it when we start up you should never sit on it and we always have signs and everything else like that. We have these wonderful digital displays that are usually usually advertising they all work in concert with each other which is great. So they're if they're rotating they're rotating at the same time if they're static or changing they change at the same time that's wonderful. But we also then use it for the announcement so we've got a a written announcement that shows up on top of that with an Aurora that shows up which is gorgeous. The device itself is our inbound baggage handling system. So we we would call it our inbound BHS because we love acronyms. And so the BHS from that standpoint is is a piece of equipment that you know we want to make certain we're always careful with but you've also got bags that are going to show up that are pretty heavy and everyone always seems to want to get their bag first.

SPEAKER_02 35:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

And even if their bag is not coming out first. And so we did social engineering with this but we also said what could that sound be that could evoke a little bit of Minnesota so working with with Taylor was fabulous because we said from this charter standpoint we want collected sounds and we have the ability to do three dimensional sound within the space. Oh okay so one of the one of the I guess I've never noticed that. Well that's because we didn't do that. Oh got it okay but with three dimensional sound in the space we could have had geese coming from the back and over the top we could have had bison you know charging through the space with who's pounding and everyone said you're not going to do that. I said okay we're not going to do that. But but Taylor provided us with so so we we developed what we're gonna do. And so we have lights that show up that look like sunlight on rippling water being reflected back against trees or the underside of a bridge. So you know you're getting this idea of 10,000 lakes 11,842 lakes without specifically saying water you know so we're giving you a sense of place without telling you what it is. But then Taylor was able to do all sorts of recordings coupled with some of the recordings that we had licensed already. And so we thought waterfalls are going to be fabulous waves are going to be excellent we should be trying you know babbling brooks and and streams and the river sounds and and we should have birds because we're in a flyway we've got you know the whole Mississippi River coming up so it's a major flyway folks are always watching eagles when we're down a little bit further south of the cities you've got red tailed hawks still in the valley looking for everything. It's an amazing thing and we tried a we tried a bunch of things and we took all those sounds and I think you'll recall this and we had Delta and we had uh Mac personnel and Mac staff and and other senior officials come down and and help us so that we could play the sounds and make certain that we were selecting things that it wasn't what we liked but it worked within the space for everyone and made sense and so we really got to birds because you couldn't hear waterfalls or waves crashing or a battling brook. The levels were it was lost I was so interested in in you know Canada geese just coming across and so we we played some of those songs and you know Delta was was very kind to us and said well these these are fine but the goose sounds like the equipment's broken you can't use geese. And they were they were not wrong.

SPEAKER_02 38:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 38:29

Because we played I think we had three recordings of geese and it's like these are so cool and you play them in the space it's like yeah what's wrong with the equipment it sounds like it's broken. Oh my goodness this is terrible but the other sounds chickadees uh cardinals sparrows uh robins blue jays etc mixed work really well in the space and then obviously we're lucky that most of the nation has loons but loon is the state bird here yes and so we have a lot of loons we have two separate loon sounds but we have all of these sounds anonymized in terms of selecting which one's going to show up okay so as you choose randomly the computer chooses randomly which one's gonna play it shouldn't play the same one each time okay and we did that because there are folks that work down there all the time. Yeah and they have to listen to it and they have to listen to it all day long. And so if that machine turns on twenty times during your shift and it's the same sound every time you may not like us.

SPEAKER_03 39:28

And we we really want to make certain that they won't like you for other reasons but that's the one yeah we don't have to add to it.

SPEAKER_00 39:34

How's that? So the idea that we could do something that actually represents sense of place but also is randomized so that we're making a space that is slightly changeable without a lot of work was really fun to do that. And it was really good in terms of uh here's the concept here's the idea here it is tested in the space now it's live here it goes and and we've had some complaints and we've had you know a lot of folks say wow it's loons that's so cool. It's like well that's because you got loons today. You could have had sparrows would you have said the same thing about sparrows?

SPEAKER_03 40:09

I don't know I don't I mean I'm not into birds so I wouldn't be able to tell I know what a loon sounds like uh but I wouldn't be able to tell different bird sounds but that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

Yeah it's kind of fun.

SPEAKER_03 40:21

Um so this could be uh your job type situation or just as an architect in general and your answer would be different than anybody else's answer too. What do you want people to bring to you when they have a project for you? If I'm a client that is coming to you and saying I need a house built or I I'm working on a project that I need this what do you want from me?

SPEAKER_00 40:46

So I'm I may have a different answer though what I'm usually looking for from a stakeholder is engagement so that you're invested in the process that we're open to ideas but we also need to understand what it is you're trying to accomplish and that's hard um because a lot of times without precedent study we'll come with preconceived notions oh yes it's going to be a blue cube thank you very much yes okay good well here's your blue blue cube and it's a slightly different size it's a little bit of a joke but not too terribly much of a joke. And and you know using me as the example uh I get to work with our concessions team all the time and I said please don't ask me to ever design one of your concession spaces because I just ask you to put an Apple store in even if it's not an Apple store. And so don't ask me what you want there and how you want things. So what we're what we're trying to do with a lot of our processes whether we're working with a tenant and we're providing um some critique or some suggestions is you know making things accessible and understanding why what does universal access mean what does that look like who does that reach why is that a good thing how do we help that out knowing that your plan or what's in your head in terms of a precedent may not have any of that in there. So that open-mindedness is a hard thing uh on both sides um but there's that but there's also the engagement that throughout the entire process we're on the path together uh Pastor Oshidamore just presented to us in a forum at church uh last week and I I really want to steal this from her because it's it's um it was about racial justice but it could also be used from a project management standpoint. There's charity charity's fine but it may not match what your needs actually are the second piece was collaboration where um oh oh yeah I can work with you and we can we can work on this project and then that's the end of the relationship. And that's fine. But may not achieve all the goals that maybe we might both have for a longer term. And so her her third word which I think is where I really want to be from the standpoint of being staff and being staff architect is that indeed it's she used the word covenant and I think I want to use the word more like commitment that says we're gonna start working together here and we're gonna work on a lot of things and then hopefully we'll continue working together for this long and we'll get to see the maturation and the changes together and be able to understand each other better and be able to um not anticipate what each other's needs are but be able to understand how can I approach the issues you're bringing forward to me so that we can get two solutions maybe more quickly together or um in a surprising delightful way or stumble upon something together that we're both enamored with. Which is very different than a relationship between an architect and um a family in Florence in the 1500s. It's like you shall be able and Brunelleschi builds the best palace. These relationships are hard because we're always going to be asking difficult questions, and we may be asking questions that we don't know any answers to, and that you may also not know any answers to, or that we may think we have answers to, and they may be completely perfectly right, but they may be fine. And the question is then how do we develop solutions that are more than fine for us? Because it's not just about, well, my first thought was this, this is what we should do. This is how we need to accomplish it. You should run along with me. It's like, nope, we need to figure this out together, and it's going to take a lot of work.

SPEAKER_03 44:33

So engagement is relationship building more than it is.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

It is, and I'm just, I'm I wish I were better at relationships because really I want to be I want to be more of a tool for folks. I want to be a resource. I want to be how you accomplish the work you want to do. Um I think that's hard.

SPEAKER_03 44:51

But that's a never-ending struggle. And I don't know if struggle is the right word, something that you're shifting all the time as you're getting older.

SPEAKER_00 44:59

Oh, and we all know more than we did yesterday. And we all know then that the more that we know is we know how little we know.

unknown 45:06

True.

SPEAKER_00 45:07

Which is just also fabulous for us older people.

unknown 45:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

It was so good when we have the braveness to just do things we had no clue about, right?

SPEAKER_03 45:16

Yes, but also inefficient.

SPEAKER_00 45:19

Inefficient. I was in a text conversation with a friend of mine in in Portland, and he said, you know, we were when we were younger, we were very brash and we knew everything. And he said, and we didn't. And he he was absolutely right.

SPEAKER_02 45:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

But there was a bravery that went along with that that I think you can still have even as you know how little we know, yeah, and continue that bravery to try and do things that may seem out of reach. And I think that's great. That that idea that, yeah, we can accomplish this pretty easily, or I don't know what this is, but could we get there together? I don't know what that is.

SPEAKER_03 45:59

Maybe you never will.

SPEAKER_00 46:01

Maybe I never will, but with as many programs as we have, that's our opportunity to see what did we learn last time.

SPEAKER_02 46:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:08

What can we improve this time? Even just those small steps start getting us towards that that higher goal of more than just good.

SPEAKER_03 46:16

Okay, so you talk about sense of place a lot. Sure. Tell me about your place in St. Paul.

SPEAKER_00 46:21

So I have a hard time with my place in St. Paul. Um, I'm not from St. Paul. I live there. I've lived there 32 years now.

SPEAKER_03 46:28

I feel like especially Saint Paul.

SPEAKER_00 46:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:31

Uh I've lived there since 2011. So less than you. But St. Paulites, I don't know what residents are.

unknown 46:41

St.

SPEAKER_03 46:41

Paul people call themselves, but um, they're very protective in the sense that they're like, I've lived here longer than you, so I not own this place, but I'm there's a there's a real sense of ownership that I see, and it's not that's not a bad thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:54

No, and it I think it's true everywhere. My my my uh idea, and I think I've shared this with you before. My grandparents um bought a farm in the late 40s, uh near Gleen, Michigan. So just a couple miles out of town, small town.

SPEAKER_03 47:08

And is that a song?

SPEAKER_00 47:10

No, no, that's politics. And and they were always the folks who bought so-and-so's farm, okay, even though they lived in that house for more than 50 years.

SPEAKER_01 47:20

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 47:21

They were always new. Oh now the house was built in like 1878 or no, it had to be before that. Um, maybe it was 1848 because there was a claim that there was a bullet lodged in it still from the Civil War. It's like, well, it didn't get that far north, but okay.

SPEAKER_03 47:37

But that was a very strong bullet that it went, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:42

You know that, right? I I'd almost buy like the Ohio War, but you know, that was no. So it was a really it was an old house. They bought it, it must have been a hundred years old at that point in time, and the farm was still the farm, and this, that, and the other thing, but they were always new, and it was always called so somebody else's farm. Oh, you live on so-and-so's farm. And it's like, so I don't to me, that means that St. Paul is a is a great place because everyone takes ownership. Number one, number two, there are so many folks with roots. Um, you know, the gentleman across the street from my house, his grandfather lived there for decades and decades and decades. Next door to us, the house has been in the family for 75 years more. Folks that are there have roots in the neighborhood, and even the folks that move away and come back still have roots in the neighborhood, even if they were gone for a good period of time. So it's really interesting. So I'll always be new in my mind to the neighborhood, just because there is enough history there. And you know, I'm owner number eight of my house. And hopefully there are going to be 20 more owners of my house after me. So I'm just a steward for a short period of time. But St. Paul is interesting because again, there are so many of these layers of ownership. So thinking about that, we were doing a walkthrough in St. Paul, a walk and sketch with uh AIA St. Paul, and we had a really hot day, but it was a really good day to be walking around downtown looking at things. And I'd been thinking before the meeting, oh, so we're gonna walk from Lower Town, and then we're gonna walk to you know Mears Park, and then we're gonna walk and we're gonna do the overlook of the river, and we're gonna go, you know, see the land, the upper landing, and then we're gonna go uh maybe we could get all the way to Irvine Park and we can see the cathedral on the hill, and we can, you know, this, that. And all of that language was language invented in the last 150 years. It's not what any of those places were ever called before.

SPEAKER_01 49:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 49:45

So our ownership, if we call it that, if the roots that we have are that short, how do we start to broaden our view of what that land is? And part of it is by understanding that yeah, some of these things are not that old. They may be as old as the colonization, but that doesn't mean that that's what it is or that's how we should think about it. Can I think about this space differently? Um, kind of digging up in the backyard when I'm playing around with dirt. No, there's no no, and no, I've we found one bone, but we think it was a cow. But um, there's a lot of sand and there's a lot of river rock.

SPEAKER_03 50:26

So there's a river here?

SPEAKER_00 50:27

So there was a river on top of the bluff at one point in time. And we also know that there were lakes up there that all got filled in. And so as you as you look at it. Your neighborhood probably was a lake for a while.

unknown 50:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 50:40

Um, and if you look at kind of the rolling hills, you know that there were streams that went through the area as well. Uh Hide Mill Road, there used to be a mill and there used to be a stream that went down that. Now there's a railroad track and a road. There's a lot of just hidden time that we're missing out on, and missing out on the hidden time and also missing out on the folks that are still here that it's been part of their history for 10,000, 12,000 years.

SPEAKER_03 51:07

So, do we as newcomers get to claim it as our own space too?

SPEAKER_00 51:13

Or are we just the newcomers, just like all of us are, and it's all relative. I don't know. I mean, there's it's it's hard.

SPEAKER_03 51:20

Yeah, there's it's hard. A band called Apulsa Service, and they have a line in one of their songs that says, I am a visitor here, I am not permanent, and I think about that all the time. Where I'm like, okay, how can I make the best of what is in front of me right now? Yeah, how can I better be a better steward of the space of these stories and allow people to have space? Uh I think about Hmong people a lot too. Like we lived in Laos, we migrated from China down the mountains to Laos, they disperse into Vietnam, Thailand, and so there was never actually any country that we lived in. And then as we come here, as we are forced here, there's no actual country here too, and we are forced to live here. And so it's like, how do we have a sense of home? And then do we have a right to claim that, you know, on stolen land, on all these things, and then also what is the path forward on that and all that? So I don't know if there's ever any, I don't know if guilt is the right word or question of how do I you know.

SPEAKER_00 52:26

I don't think we're gonna solve it through guilt. I think we can solve some of the racial issues through responsibility, okay, but guilt will just make you think like you're doing something when you're not doing anything, you're just feeling bad.

SPEAKER_03 52:39

Well, that's every day in my life. So that's not gonna be. Okay, so you know, you do a lot of stuff outside of work. You're part of your church board.

SPEAKER_00 52:53

I'm I'm uh chair of our facilities committee, which means I'm on our church council, I guess, right now. And then you also are the president of the tell me what you're the president of the so I'm almost future past president of AI St. Paul. Yeah, so I've just got uh about another month left, and then we've got a new president that comes in, but I'll be past president for a year. Okay, and so that still has responsibilities for AIA St. Paul chapter. Okay, and then you're a musician, and then I'm on a a music scholarship committee, the Budnick Williams Scholarship Committee. So we we hire performers to benefit. Uh uh students at Wiseetta High School.

SPEAKER_01 53:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 53:30

So we provide uh this year's kind of interesting. There are scholarships that are going to be provided.

SPEAKER_03 53:35

I know I know this is we did not talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 53:38

I live in Ramsey County, and I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 53:40

I grew up in Hennepin and I'm sorry, so you what I'm sorry, what is it?

SPEAKER_00 53:44

There are scholarships for kids, but this year there's there's something interesting. There's a uh conductor who's actually doing uh workshops with uh students and then writing a piece that they'll perform.

SPEAKER_01 53:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 53:55

So uh it's a commissioned work, it's kind of interesting. So that's kind of fun. Um, but it's music adjacent. How's that? Um so I'm in a band called Musled, which uh played their first show, I think, in June of 1986 or 85.

SPEAKER_03 54:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 54:12

So it's been a while.

SPEAKER_03 54:13

So you're almost 40 years old as a band.

SPEAKER_00 54:16

So the band is almost 40 years old, and um I've I've been playing with them since um maybe 1990. I was trying to think back of how did they invite me over? kind of thing. And I I don't quite have that story down yet. I know when I first started writing some lyrics for some songs that they were had already recorded, and you know, this is what we're doing, and by you know, June that was all done and ready to make a bunch of cassettes. So we did that.

SPEAKER_03 54:46

So, why is it important for you to do things that are outside of your day job? To do things that are outside of stuff that you're just like not very good at. So um that you're not like I'm in charge, I have to be in charge, I have to come up with united.

SPEAKER_00 55:02

Why aren't I a professional at all the things that I'm working on? Um, one of the things I approach architecture a little bit differently as well. I I like to think about it from an infrastructural standpoint. Like the reason why the plane leaves is because the bags get on the plane. If the bags don't get on the plane, the plane doesn't leave. So to me, the BHS is almost as important as the checkpoints, or more so probably more so. So I've got a little different perspective on some things. Growing up in the hinterlands in in Maple Grove, which is not Ramsey County.

SPEAKER_03 55:36

They call it the Hinterlands?

SPEAKER_00 55:38

No, no one calls it the Hinterlands, except maybe I I did. There were farms around us, that's all we had were farms.

SPEAKER_03 55:44

Sounds very romantic to call it the Hinterlands.

SPEAKER_00 55:47

Oh, out in the hinterlands of out in the dales.

SPEAKER_03 55:50

I grew up around that area too. I grew up in Brooklyn Park.

SPEAKER_00 55:52

Yeah, exactly. It was kind of hinterlands, wasn't it?

unknown 55:55

No.

SPEAKER_00 55:56

Okay. But my my dad grew up on a farm and he knew how to tear apart everything and put it all back together, whether it was electrical or plumbing, and he was an agricultural engineer, so he worked on food process control systems. So he had to understand, you know, how did things work? You know, what what was what does water look like in terms of plumbing? What does steam look like, everything, etc.? And so I think I I saw from him a lot of opportunities to learn and do lots of different things that you better be good at, but you're probably not an expert at Jack of all trades. So as I look at some of the things I do, you know, that's what I can do. And so when I play, when I write a piece of music and I bring it to the band and say, What do you think? And they go, Oh, we have no idea what to do with that. It's like, I don't either, but could we try? It's because I play guitar, but I don't play guitar. They make me sing, but I don't know a singer. I like knowing about a lot of things, I like doing a lot of different things. My wife is really into rocks and has been forever, so I collect dirt instead. Um, but she's polishing rocks, and so we're collecting rocks, and so I'll we'll be out collecting. I'll say, Okay, I don't know what we're looking for. She says, Well, look for the green rocks. I say, Okay, we're gonna look for you know eunuchite. And so I find all the green rocks, and I can find the green rocks and bring we bring those home, and she's good work, good work. But that's not me being an expert at rock collecting, that's me looking for green rocks, and I I think I may do a lot of that, that I've got varied interests, and it I get to use that for everything I get to do at work. So if it's if it's about stone, I get to be thinking about native materials that we have here. And how can we use them in such a way that talks about sense of place, that kind of feeds that I can feed me to work rather than bringing work home. Because I don't need an airport at my house.

SPEAKER_03 57:52

Um It'd be really noisy. I'd be like, shut up.

SPEAKER_00 57:56

We've got we've got one in St. Paul already. Thank you very much. We don't need another one. But that idea of stewardship, I think, is is kind of interesting too, because we know enough to be able to understand how do we guide things. So if it's a a church, you know, it's stewardship of the building. And a church doesn't need a building, but we have a building, so we have to take care of it at the house, you know, the 135-year-old house is hopefully lives another 200, 300, 400 years, and I'm just a small part of that stewardship. The airport, same way. How do we steward that so that we're the best caretakers of both the resource, the money as well as the resource, the thing, to make certain that it provides that space where people are safe, they feel comfortable if they're coming home, that they feel like they've come home. Music is probably kind of the same way. I mean, if I if I had to, I could probably learn a few more instruments. I should. Maybe even how to play them well rather than just play them the way I do. So the band, the music is is being able to get together. Uh, you know, we've we've called it, you know, Tuesday Night Music Club for a long time. That's really good. We're gonna talk to Cheryl Crow about that because I think she might have stolen that from us. You know, we'll get together, we'll play. Our bassist is writing a tremendous amount of new music, which is helping all of us see how we can write more music too. And so we released something back in June, Legends of Imperial Hills, which is you know, 31 minutes of uh rock and roll. How's that?

SPEAKER_03 59:29

So you collect rocks in another way.

SPEAKER_00 59:31

Yeah, exactly. I uh I put the rocks at the top of the hill, the rectangular ones had a hard time rolling, but the round ones so it's it's fun, it's a good hobby. A friend of mine told me once, you know, if you were gonna play arenas, you would have done so when you were 20. She was really kind that night.

SPEAKER_03 59:50

So tell me this is the last question for you.

SPEAKER_00 59:54

Do I have to get this one right? No. Because I haven't gotten any more.

SPEAKER_03 59:58

Okay, oh I've been asking all my guests what do you want people to see when they see you? Because your work represents a lot of you. But it you know, some people when they see when they meet me, they're not like, oh, I know you from your job. I know you from this other thing that you do. What is do you feel would be the best representation?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:20

Yeah, the so I have 12 answers. And there are there are probably two pieces here which are hilarious going through my mind right now. One is one is what do they think when they see me? Uh the second is what do I really want? I would like to always have the opportunity in a relationship to provide ideas um so that we grow. Those are hard things because sometimes it means we change. One of us, both of us, the world around us. The way I get to think at work is not about tomorrow, it's about a long ways out. And I'm concerned about tomorrow. And we should be making certain that tomorrow happens the way tomorrow should happen. We should not, if today was bad, we should not have tomorrow be the same way. We can certainly make it better. But a lot of the things that we're trying to accomplish are sometimes well outside the bounds of someone's career, even. And so, um, you know, a response that says, Well, I'm gonna be retired by then it's like, well, that's great. Who do you want to send to the meeting that that will take this seriously? I want to be the person in the room that allows those conversations to happen so that we can think about what that future looks like together.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:31

You want to be a steward again.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:32

Because that's important, yeah. Yeah. If I can, and I know most times I have conflicting thoughts about whether or not I should share. Here's what I think, and here's what I think we should do, and these are the five ways we do it, and let's just go, versus trying to be better at hearing everyone who had a bad experience yesterday and who's worried about tomorrow and isn't retired by the time we're actually doing the project we're talking about. We need to take all that input seriously and make certain that um it's not just opinion, but it's fact-based, number one. But number two, we can also take their life experience into account so that when I show up and when we share, it's a relatively safe space, even though we're gonna do hard things together. It's a terrible answer.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:21

No, it's a great answer. And I lied, actually, I have another question. I've been thinking about this question a while.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:26

Blue or green. Uh but it's 42. I feel like unless it's six was nine.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:32

Well, but so for as long as I've known you, your uniform has been a mock turtleneck.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:39

Are you mocking me?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:40

No, but my question for you is are you scared that some of these turtlenecks will actually be or these mock turtlenecks will actually be actual turtlenecks when you're putting it on? You're like, this was the wrong thing that I put on to it.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:54

I wish my neck were shorter.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:57

It's a joke question.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:59

It it is. It is so a long time ago, bad things happened, and since then I've decided that I don't want to think about what I have to wear every day.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:09

Okay. And just like Steve Jobs.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:11

I I bought mock turtlenecks in 1985, and I kind of still like them, so I have eight of them and I wash them and wear them. I'm that simple.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:21

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:23

Alright, thanks, Ellen.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:25

Thanks you. This is great.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:30

Between two urns is hosted by me, Yu of Aang. Technical support and editing is provided by Chris Coza. Our theme song, Swaying Trees, is written by Chris Coza. Between Two Urns is made possible by a grant from the Harlan Boss Foundation. For more information about Ramsey County Historical Society, please visit www.rchs.com. Thanks for listening.