Between 2 Urns - Mollie Spillman

Episode 2's guest is St. Paul resident Mollie Spillman, Director of Collections and Exhibits for the Ramsey County Historical Society. Since joining the Society in 1994, Mollie has played a vital role in preserving and managing its extensive collection. She holds a B.S. in history from Ball State University and an M.A. in historical administration from Eastern Illinois University. Her career spans work as a corporate archivist in Illinois and a senior internship at the Henry Ford Museum in Greenfield Village, Michigan. Mollie has also lent her expertise through leadership roles with several regional museum and archives organizations.

Between 2 Urns is hosted Youa Vang.
Technical support and editing is provided by Chris Koza.
Theme Song “Swaying Trees,” is written by Chris Koza.
Between 2 Urns is made possible by a grant from the Harlan Boss Foundation.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Some conversations are too interesting to stay buried. Between two urns is where history meets humanity, equal parts irreverent and insightful. Each episode digs up the stories, legacies, and lingering questions we leave behind. This interview-driven podcast brings you candid conversations with people whose lives, work, and passions that shape the stories we carry forward in Ramsey County. From artists and educators to community leaders and unexpected voices, we explore what drives us, challenges us, and ultimately connects us. Blending humor, honesty, and curiosity about the past and present between two earths proves that history isn't just something we inherit, it's something we live. Pull up a chair, and the conversation is just getting started. Molly is the Director of Collections and Exhibit for the Ramsey County Historical Society. Since joining the society in 1994, Molly has played a vital role in preserving and managing its extensive collection. She holds a BS in history from Ball State University and an MA in Historical Administration from Eastern Illinois University. Her career spans work as a corporate archivist in Illinois and a senior internship from the Henry Ford Museum in Greenfield Village, Michigan. Molly has also lent her expertise through leadership roles with several regional museum and archives organizations. So welcome. Thank you. Thank you for being here tonight, Molly. So tell me what your role is at RCHS and tell me how long you've been with org. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

I'm the director of collections and exhibitions. Uh that's a fairly recent title change, uh, forever and ever. I was the curator and archivist, which is in essence the same position, in that I am responsible for all um collections management, basically, and exhibitions at Ramsey County Historical Society. I've been here since I was a tiny child, uh since 1995. Okay. And that and in that in essence, that same role. So 30 years. 30 years.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

How did it start? Like what was your role when you first started? What were you doing? Sure. What kind of work were you doing?

SPEAKER_01 2:18

I actually wrote myself a job in essence. I didn't know that at the time. I was hired to do a collections assessment. Uh there wasn't anybody who was responsible for collections management at that time in 1995. It was a whole different staff and different everything, really. We had the Gibbs Farm, obviously, and the magazine, but collections looked totally different then. So I was hired to make a plan to improve collections management. And because of some staffing changes that had happened right around that time, I was hired then to implement that plan uh based on, again, some staffing shifts that were happening at that time.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

What was the state of the collections when you walked in? Was it like just boxes of stuff, or what were you?

SPEAKER_01 3:04

It was definitely boxes of stuff. Uh, and I always, whenever I t talk about this, I always say we Ramsey County Historical Society was not unique in this position at all. Uh, but yes, there were certainly boxes of stuff. There was, you know, Ed Gibbs Farm is a good example that there were everything. Everything was in every little nook and cranny. All of the cabinetry was filled with artifacts. Um, where my office is currently and has been for many years in the landmark center was filled, again, with things in boxes or not. And and that really was the rationale for why I was initially hired as a contractor to make a plan and you know, with budgets and potential staffing needs and all of that to bring some sort of kind of order to chaos in a way.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Well, uh there's a saying that, like, how do you eat an elephant one bite at a time? Like, how did you separate that down into the work then?

SPEAKER_01 3:59

Right. Well, and because of just my tenure, I've been able to kind of uh eat each of those bites over time. Uh, not that it's all there's certainly big parts of them that are still left to be consumed, but uh it really was what was the most necessary, what was the most important, I guess is a way to say it. Uh, where was the biggest need for uh improvement?

SPEAKER_00 4:22

And what did you see that needed to be improved?

SPEAKER_01 4:24

Well, two things. One, uh, and again, Gibbs Farm programming and everything about Gibbs Farm really uh was not the case then. It was really a house museum. Uh, this is before expansion of interpretation to include the cloud man story and in and his relationship and his group of people with uh with Jane Gibbs. So it really at that time was basically a house museum, farming museum, uh, talking about the last farming years of the Gibbs family. So there was a lot of material stored at Gibbs farm site that was not just by the nature of how it was being stored, was not optimal. So that was one way to try to gain control of better collections management uh standards, just try to come in a line with those. And then certainly archival materials has always been a priority because that's what not only our own researchers for the magazine and other exhibits, uh, but just outside researchers here in Minnesota and elsewhere farther abroad would need. So I think those were really the two most important things at that time were Gibbs and and archival, photographs, books, paper, two-dimensional.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

So archival is paper and photographs, yes, and collections is so and then objects.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

So I always I abbreviate everything just because I do. Uh so it's 2D, two-dimensional, and three-dimensional. Uh so two D is flat paper, books, uh, photographs, maps, archival collections, paper collections.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

What's detrimental to paper in how I'm storing? So let's say if I'm at home in a dusty basement.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Well, basements I not ideal because of moisture, and typically here in this state. The main thing to think about from a conservation, I'm not conservator, I'll say that right away. Uh, but just from years of experience in many, many workshops and that sort of professional development over the years, is fluctuation. So when you think about uh temperature and humidity and light, obviously there are pests and that sort of thing, but uh that are more readily usually containable or controllable, but thinking about big swings in those readings. So again, not having something in direct sunlight, sunlight being the the worst, uh direct sunlight, UV light, ultraviolet light. Why is that? Because it deteriorates it it fades. Uh it just basically takes color away, uh, even in not and not just in things that have bright colors, but also just handwriting inks will you will see if so, for example, if you have something framed and matted for a long time, or a year even, uh, and you took the mat off, you would see a definite line as to where, and it was in the sun, uh, you would see how faded. Even in a year. Oh, yes, within a year, for sure. So, and then temperature and humidity again are the big uh ones. So, if it's consistently 80 degrees, that's not ideal uh because it's very dry. Again, humidity and temperature work together, sort of opposite of each other in a way. Uh, so you just want consistency. So if you had something in your basement, I would certainly get it in some kind of container that's not absorbing more moisture, like a tote. But the problem with plastic totes that are or any kind of bag uh is that you then you can create your own little humidity chamber uh where condensation can form. So being in a kind of a mid-range human comfort uh is is kind of right at the cusp of what is comfortable for most obstacles. So living room? Living room, yeah.

unknown 7:45

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Attic, but people tend to store things closets better because it's dark, and again, you're not moving it around like it's the bottom of your closet or the top of your closet, so it's fairly inert to where it is. And again, there's not huge fluctuations in temperature, humidity, and it likely is not lit up by sunlight.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

So I've been to the storage space where you have a lot of the collection stuff. Do you ever want to have those on display? What is the goal for that? Is it to allow people to come see it? Sure. We didn't really talk about this.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

How much how much you want me to say, but that's something that I very often hear from donors. Uh, and there's a whole process about how things are offered to us and how it comes into our collection and levels of care and all of that. But uh donors, and and again, just thinking of myself, whatever I feel is worthy, I guess, or appropriate to give and be preserved, I want other people to see it uh because I think it's important and I think others should think it's important. And hopefully, if it goes into a collection, that's what the collector's repository thinks is important as well. So having something available for exhibit, especially, you have to think about all of those potential dangers for objects, and then you add security onto that. So, what is a good compromise in a way is just digital catalog records. So, as items are given, they're photographed and fully cataloged, uh, not just physically, but maybe research on a piece of ceramic, maybe the maker or a maker's mark, for example. So you build a whiskey. Yes, exactly. The whiskey whiskey jug or the pharmacy jug or whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

That's what they pay you in whiskey. That's right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Well, that's good too. I that's I'm I'm willing to work for that. Um so those sorts of pieces of information are what go into the catalog record, and then that's available online uh on our website and on many historical societies' websites now is that technology is getting more affordable and just the process is becoming easier with you know having cheaper cameras that still do a nice job and working through that process. So that's a way that the object, for example, uh, or even an archival collection or book is available for research and consultation, but it might not be on exhibit. Certainly things are put on exhibit from our collection, our own collection here, well, here at Gibbs, those is where we are, or uh in other places where we have exhibition space. But all of those sort of environmental conditions uh become a part of that, and whether they're uh in our own space or are loaned out to another institution who's doing an exhibit or installation somewhere. The time frame or the length of time that an item might be on exhibit is defined by many things, but it's fragility for lack of a better word. And that's why if you think about going to see maybe the declaration of independence or something, something uh is always in low light, and that's the reason why.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Yeah, we went to DC this past summer and we got to see all those. We got to see Declaration of Independence, the um Constitution, and then the amendments that they had to. And I was trying to take photos.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

I'm like, I can't see a thing. Right. Well, and they would likely, if you did take a flash photograph, somebody's gonna be on you in a little maroon jacket pretty soon. And it's because of the potential light damage. And if and again, well, I'm it's just me, I'm just doing it. But if you know a hundred people if a hundred thousand people see it every week or something, you know, think about all of those flashes. So having that digital record is good. So is a movie like National Treasure is that possible to do to do that kind of stuff to so I love those shows because uh one, it uh brings out history that sometimes are little known facts or things that you think you know that aren't quite right, uh, from uh in this case American history, uh well and other histories in that movie. But I think that those shows bring uh interest to museums, like night at the museum, and I'm trying to think of other movies, but I think that it it does kind of shine a light on a profession that is misunderstood in a way or not even thought of to be misunderstood. You know, they don't, it's not even thought about enough to misunderstand it because it's just like, oh, well, that's that happens. I don't really know how that works. But I go, I went to a museum as a kid, or I went on a field trip and uh with really no comprehension of what it took to see that exhibit that you saw in DC or you know, have the dinosaurs come to life, I guess, in nine at the museum. We don't have any dinosaurs in our collection, so yeah, uh, so I'm lucky that way.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

Well, maybe not though. Maybe not, it couldn't come now.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

Um, so talking about misconceptions, what is like a misconception when people want to donate stuff to RCHS or even a historical society where it's like, oh, this is important to me, you should want it, right? Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

And and those are the sorts of calls that I get weekly. Okay. Um, is and anybody that's sort of in my position in a collecting institution, whether it's three, whatever kind of thing it is that they want to give.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

What do you consider when they're um getting getting it to you?

SPEAKER_01 12:44

One, it you know, we have standards by which we accept items into our collection. It needs to meet basic standards, so it needs to have some relationship to Ramsey County history. Uh, and while that seems simple, there are some sort of loopholes, as it were, which is, and one a good example of that is the Gibbs Farmhouse. So when Ramsey County Historical Society was founded, it really was founded to save the Gibbs farm from destruction in 1949. Lots of things happened. Uh, and then in 1954, the house opened basically as a house museum. In that interim, the house had been emptied because the family, the Gibbs family, had basically died uh or moved away. So things had to be either reacquired that were, and this is all from records that I've inherited. I I'm not that old, I wasn't here then, but they uh put out a call for era-appropriate material. So sometimes things are offered that isn't there's not a direct tie, it wasn't manufactured in Ramsey County, or maybe it even wasn't used necessarily in Ramsey County, but it's certainly identical or representative of something that would have been used in Ramsey County during a particular time. And so we would take it in theory through this process if it would fill a gap for us for whatever it might be. We don't have anything about breweries in Ramsey County. Uh, and so we have a lot on that.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

But uh is what you're saying. Yes, no more.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

No, well, maybe maybe we'll talk about that maybe, but it is uh represent, you know, this is a brewer's tool from 1880 and it's from Milwaukee, say, or it was used elsewhere, lacrosse, um, Duluth, wherever it might have been. So it wasn't particularly tied to Ramsey County, but something very similar, if not identical, would have been used in Ramsey County. So we might take that. But better is if it was used in Ramsey County, and there are photographs of it being used or documentation of it being used here and how. I've always sort of felt this way, and maybe it wasn't always the case, but um, the story of the thing is is the important where and I always use wedding dresses as an example because wedding dresses most always are the best wedding dress ever, your wedding dress as a bride. And um, and that's perfectly fine. Uh, and I don't, and I never say it quite like this to be like, well, you know, kind of sell this to me. Uh tell me why it's the greatest. It could be, and we have many wedding dresses in our collection, but make me care about it as much as you. And again, I don't say it exactly like that, but tell me the story. Tell me about that day if if they're the bride. So that's the other part. I either get a call from the person whose item it is, who it used it or it belonged to, or their descendant in some way. Uh, that person has passed. Um, maybe the person is is downsizing, that happens a lot. So I get that call and we have to move it in two days, or someone has passed away and someone has found these things and doesn't know exactly what it is, but maybe, but it's old, so maybe it would have some value to the historical society. So, nevertheless, uh, either in either case, uh, what can you provide, tell, describe, show that tells us as a historical society in the future what bring us to that point of that item, bring us to the wedding day, bring us to the church, to the getting your hair done, to getting uh photos taken, and tell me what happened next. Uh, where did you live? You know, just build out the story of the object, even though the object is pristine potentially, it's just looks brand new, although some people don't want that either. Uh, people always want to dry clean garments, and I'm always asking politely for them not to do that. Right. Uh well, one, a lot of dry cleaning chemicals can be quite harmful, and then that is in the cloth, so or material, whatever it is. And so one damage can just happen as part of that cleaning, but sort of the grime of daily life can also give some indication of how that item was used or worn. Lots of collars and that sort of thing will demonstrate how uh something was worn. Not that long ago, a woman who was in her 90s called and she lived in Faribault, but she had met, married, and had a family here in Ramsey County. And her husband was a navigator, so he was in sort of the belly of the plains of World War II. And so she had a number of documents from his life. He's deceased was deceased, but she also had his overalls, like a jumpsuit, sort of. And she's like, Well, and she was sort of embarrassed about it. She's like, Well, there's this patch, and there's this, I should have mended that hole. And I said, No, no, don't do that. Uh, and clean it. They always want to clean it. And uh, I said, no, no, don't do that. I said, Do you know how that always happened? He's like she's like, Oh, he's always had that cut there in his trout in his jumpsuit leg. And it's however he got in the seat of where he was supposed to be during a bombing mission that uh he always hit his knee. And so that's how the wear happened. And so that's part of that's the story, you know, that's the story to me that really stands out and again is exhibitable, uh, is part of the record that would be made available online. But uh, in the case of clothing, that's an easy kind of story to tell. That it's not just the object, or it's not just the photograph, say, uh, you know, a photograph of anything, a graduation, a parade, a funeral, whatever it is. What about it? What else happened that day that I can't see in this photograph that maybe they know uh as a donor?

SPEAKER_00 18:21

So you're more of a story collector and less an object collector.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Well, I think so.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

And that's you're all of it, but right.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

A lot of my job is to hear those stories and go to people's homes and because nobody wants to park downtown uh in St. Paul. And because there's no parking. Because there's no parking all the constraints. And it's extraction and there's expensive. So often I spend a day a week, I sort of have parsed out to make donor calls. Uh and these are donors of objects, not donors of money, uh, although there's that too. And that's that's great. I I hear their stories, and and you know, sometimes other relatives or friends come and or neighbors, depending on what it is. And I just get to know them and again make lots of notes. And those notes, if the item comes through the whole process and we accept it, is part of that catalog record in sort of a notes field. So that again, that was sort of recorded by me on this date, and this is my explanation or my transcription of what my notes said about a particular story or stories on whatever it is we're talking about, furniture or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

Do you write all this stuff down or is it more like I do write it down?

SPEAKER_01 19:29

Um, and then I have to do it quickly so I can transcribe my scroll. But that helps me too in then coming back. You know, I've talked to them always on the phone, at least once. Maybe they've sent me photographs or things in the mail, less of that now, but back before the internet, uh, it was a different world. But then that becomes part of that record, and then I can compare it to things within our collection already and do a little bit more research based on my notes because sometimes what I'm told or what is the family lore turns out not to be exactly right.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

Um people remember things wrong?

SPEAKER_01 20:04

Well, or just the story gets passed down incorrectly. Yeah. Um, I just met actually not that long ago, it's been kind of an ongoing. Sometimes people, families continue to donate things over time. Sure. So I met with a family, the parents have were moved had moved into a retirement community, and so I was dealing with their children. So I there was a whole assemblage of things. And so one of the things was a wooden tube, like a it was a turned piece of that was hollowed out, and then it had another sort of plunger in it. And she said, Oh, there were two lines within the family. One uh was a he was kind of a jack-of-all-trades guy and he made cigars, one of his jobs, and there was a big cigar industry in St. Paul, but uh he was part of that kind of at home in his garage. And so I was told that this was a cigar, yes, yes, uh, a cigar uh roller, and that's what that's what dad had said. This is what the lady's telling me, uh in his 90s. So this would have happened in the 20s, basically, and the story of this object. And so that's what dad said it was, that's what she told me it was. Uh, but the other side of the family were pharmacists and and other things. There were lots of branch branches to this family. So I work a lot with interns because it's just me uh and one another colleague uh who staffs our research center. And so I had an intern working on uh cataloging that object. It was accepted again, based on what I was told it was. And I did a fair amount of research, and I'm like, this doesn't make any sense to me at all. Like how this just doesn't work, like the science it doesn't work. It was a corker. So basically, the tube went on the bottle, and then you put the cork at the top of the bottle, and then you pushed on that plunger and it put the cork inside the bottle. So that came from the pharmaces that had nothing to do with cigars whatsoever. Um, so again, uh that was just one of many things that came. And and again, they were very uh there were little, you know, scraps of paper that had all this whole story about cigars. And I'm like, okay, you know, I'll figure it out. So, anyway, so that's a good example of again looking back. Notes and then trying to validate that what I was told is correct.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

Did you have to do some research to figure out what it was?

SPEAKER_01 22:07

I did. And then and again, I was still at a loss. I watched weird video. I watched I had learned a lot about cigar making all over the world. And it still didn't quite make any sense to me how that was gonna roll a cigar. But an intern actually figured it out. Because she's like, Well, she was so excited. I was excited too when you make those discoveries of this is a longtime mystery solved. Uh and for the family too. So I did reach out to them and they were very excited. And I sent some pictures of other examples of corkers. Uh and she showed her dad uh and he was all excited. So again, those are the kinds of stories that are fun for me, you know, and it's kind of a different story every day. A bunch of stories every day.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

It's can be it's researching and it's digging up dinosaur bones. It is, it is without like breaking anything. Yeah, I think it's interesting, like how you're, you know, you've been um doing your work for 30 plus years, right? But like even the industry's changing because uh these days kids don't learn cursive anymore. Yes, and there's a lot of cursive writing in some of the stuff that you're doing, so it's like they have to learn, yes, you know.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

That has uh just as a joke, um, I did a talk not that long ago at a conference and it was about internships and volunteers, and that was one of the punchlines was that that's an and it is really is true, it wasn't a joke, that that is a question that I ask would be interns and volunteers of us of that are younger than me, that can they read cursive? And so everyone at that conference laughed because they exactly knew what I was talking about. That cursive for the most part is not taught any. I was taught to write cursive. So sometimes when interns come, they're excited. You know, there's some choices in the in the matter that they can make. So a lot of times they would want to read diaries. Oh, I want to read diaries, that'll be so cool, and it'll be like a I don't know what they think it's gonna be like. But anyway, uh diaries are super, they are super cool. They're a lot of info about the weather, but also other things. It was just always an utter failure. They were so flabbergasted, they were just so upset with themselves. And I would try to help. One of the things that turns out to help people um is or has in my experience has is if you read out loud. So if you read the letter out loud, um you do get sort of a cadence, and is the more you do it, the more beneficial it is, but also you tend to get more of a context. Uh so just skip the word you don't know, or however many words you don't know. But try to I read that in two minutes. That's right. I have 50 pages read. Um, and here's all of those, and I have three words. But certainly if they're place names, people's names, unfamiliar words, that's hard or to understand. But uh it does help to read out loud. But yes, reading, understanding of cursive is problematic uh for young people. And again, so many of you know, not looking at government document things that would be typed, yeah, but uh forms, but there's always some handwritten portion of that typically, if it's not even just a signature or someone's address. And well, so you can't if you can't read it, then it's a problem.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

Yeah, I remember you I walked into your office and you're like, What's this name? And I'm like, it's Archbishop something, and you're like, because you all configure out what it was. I'm like, it's Archbishop, and I I was like, that looks like a G or something, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:21

And then you're sort of that, it is it is it is very helpful. Um and actually, there's a it's sort of funny and sort of an embarrassment that on the land grant for the what is today a portion of the original land grant that is the Gibbs farm, when I first came uh on staff, the name that was given, who was the person who was the original owner of the land grant that then Heeman Gibbs bought was Henry something and cosmetics I now I'm gonna say it right, I don't remember which name is correct. It was Henry something. Okay. So then years later, I had a history professor friend of mine, she was on sabbatical, and so she's like, Oh, I can come and help you do some stuff. You know, this is a PhD person, she knows how to do a lot of deeper research and military records and all of this, and so uh we had the name wrong. Uh, but it had been it was Henry something else, like two letters were wrong, and she's like, I think this is not the right name. So, you know, again, just to show that um, even though as a historical, and I I never admittedly paid that much attention because it was just like, well, that's his name, okay. Yeah, and not really studying that document. But anyway, uh, you know, there's new history being discovered or learned on things that we think we know already every day, as again, more records are digitized, or who knows, a million different options that um again you can make corrections, not revisionist history, but in a way, I guess, uh, because you are getting more information, too. But not in the negative term, or terminology of that word.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

So, what should people consider when they're considering donating? Should they come up with how is this relevant? Do they help donate money to do any of the cataloging too? Does that help?

SPEAKER_01 27:10

It certainly does.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

Uh so I guess uh the first because I know some people are just like, here, take this.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Here, take these million documents. Um, so question the first part of your question was what should they consider donating? And I think it's complicated. Um that it gets to that story of the history item. And again, it could be a book, it could be a diary, it could be um a chair, it could be a plow, it could be eyeglasses or a garment, whatever it might be, to call call me. Um, and again, there's always that fear of you know, if you build it, they will come. But that's part of our job. I mean, to me, I see that as my job is to collect this history and preserve it and also make it available, to not hide it away, uh, to make it available as safely as possible. And now, uh in today uh time, that is digitization of records uh and items, whatever it is. But it's also just a digital catalog, which we have on our website of everything that's cataloged in our collection is available online for free, uh, with one exception.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

The Can I use the exception?

SPEAKER_01 28:16

The exception is the St. Paul building permit collection.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

Um and that you were gonna say something like morbid and like, oh, can I see it? That's right.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

Well, there are sealed collections too, but uh that's a different thing. The second part, so once you've decided that there's something that maybe would be of interest, and I would also caution against culling on your own. And I'll define the word culling because I've talked to younger folks than me, and they're like, what does that mean? So don't throw things away, let the repository throw things away. Uh, because again, your point of view of your own family history often is what it is, is and and again, two different things the value of something and the secrecy of something. So, what is the historical value of something versus say there's some you know, scandal in your family's history or something and you want that erased? Well, that's a different story. But oftentimes people say, Well, I went already went through and threw away a bunch of stuff to help me. And I'm like, Oh, stop doing that. Let me have that trash bag. Um, when it comes to especially in archival collections, although many times of types of collections, the materials that we use are not um, we're not getting them at the office max. We are getting them from archival supply houses that are acid-free. So that gets again to your earliest question about, well, what should I do if things are stored in the basement?

SPEAKER_00 29:38

I can order these online.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

You could order them online, but you're gonna order them in such a volume that it's likely not worth your while. One place, and I don't even know if they exist anymore. There you there for a while there was scrapbooking, it was a big deal. And there were like our scrapbooking and like archivers. There used to be one uh in Roseville. Yeah, like acid-free paper. Acid free paper. Uh, and that just gets to uh safe storage conditions. Uh so in that so a good example to think about acid on all the things.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

Well, in a way, people do that. And if you think about that, if you think about having a news, so your parents maybe, yeah, uh, certainly grandparents who have a scrapbook and they had newspaper clippings in the scrapbook, and it touched uh some other piece of paper inside it, so it's sandwiched against another piece of paper. And you separate those two things or just open the page, you're gonna see an outline of that newspaper on the back or the front of that other piece of paper, and that's acid migration. That's what that is. So acid in paper, I mean, that's the big thing as far as storing archival materials, and it gets into other textiles and that sort of thing, but paper is the easiest one to think about. And so an acid-free box that would hold oh a hundred folders would is about nine dollars if you buy 50 of them at a time. So when especially big archival collections that come from, say, businesses or churches or corporations, maybe, uh, mostly individuals don't have those, unless they were, you know, leaders of something. They ran a foundation or they ran a committee on something, they could in fact give some maintenance funds or a monetary donation to help uh offset our costs of the material, just the physical material and potentially, and again, this gets to the speed with which we can process collections. Uh it'll get we'll get to it eventually, but if there's funding in line to maybe even hire uh contract archivists, for example, uh it'll get done faster. So uh that sometimes happens. That has happened uh in a few big cases with archival collections of ours. And uh and that just I think it gives some acknowledgement of the value of their collection that they're entrusting us with it, but they also understand that there's a cost associated with that. We are a private nonprofit, so most of our uh supply budget is raised through grants and so forth because it is it's a fairly high cost for us to and then of course the staffing, that's the other part that uh to process one of those boxes, and that's just to physically process it, uh, is about 10 hours. So if you think about uh a person going through and making sense of it, the appraisal of a collection, how to put order to that chaos in that box, and then removing anything that's damaging, like metal paper clips or binders or straight pins. That was another way to bind paper many times. Always good to have good on your tetanus shots uh if you work in archives, and uh rubber bands and that sort of things, things that are just gonna degrade the paper. It's not a prerequisite to give money to process a donation, but certainly it wouldn't be turned away.

SPEAKER_00 32:53

Okay. So tell me about your favorite pieces in the collection.

SPEAKER_01 32:58

Well, I there's one example, there's two, there's a real example, and then there's a funny example. Um, the real example is a and I have a copy of it hanging in my office that is a horrible copy, and that's why I have it. Uh we had it made and the color was way off, and the person who wanted it back in the day before digitization, I had to take it to a place and babysit it while they scanned it because we don't have the facility to do that. It was a horrible yellow copy, and so I kept it. Uh, it is a watercolor drawing of Kellogg Boulevard that was done when Clarence Wiggington was the city architect for St. Paul. So it's hand colored. Uh the original. Uh mine just looks yellow, but uh it's sort of a color of these wall, you know, sort of a weird color. But um, I just there's so much about it that I I mean, it's a scene that I see almost every day, that part of the city. And just thinking about the history of what it took to make that document, it's it's large, it's about three feet wide and about a foot and a half tall. And I just to my eye, it's a very visually beautiful thing, but the historical background of what it means and what who made it and why and when uh in the 30s was I don't know. I just really just I like it a lot. The funny example or the funny story of my favorite object is a little baby ho, uh, and that's H-O-E-H. Um, and we have received many grants over the years to catalog our three-dimensional collection and hired many, many people over the years to do that work. And I appreciate all of them in each of their own ways for what they did. But we just encountered objects that we didn't know what they were, and they encountered mostly they did, and then they'd be like, I don't know what this is. Uh, IT, our IT services are always on me because they're like, You're getting all these weird virus spam things. Why are you looking at all these weird sites? And it's so weird, we're just doing research. Yeah. Um, and so it's a handle, a turned wooden handle that is maybe three feet long. It's pristine looking, it's not got nicks or anything in it. It's not discolored in any way, it's not burned in any way. And at the end is a little like a garden hoe. Uh, but the blade of it is like two inches by two inches. It's just this darling little thing, and nobody we couldn't figure out what it was. I brought in all kinds of different farmers and blacksmiths and textile experts over the years to do that catalog. Um, and we still couldn't figure it out. And so finally we found it uh again on what seemed like a little bit of a suspect website, but then did some more research and did verify it. And it is, in fact, called a ladies' hope. Um and again, it just seems like the most ridiculous thing. It's like this Victorian little thing that is like a size of a matchbook. That's sort of the size of the blade of this thing. But that's so anyway, it just makes me smile every time I see it.

SPEAKER_00 35:46

What does it bring you so much joy?

SPEAKER_01 35:47

Because it's just ridiculous, it's just absurd to me. Uh and I just imagine this woman in full, you know, Victorian regalia with this little tiny hoe looking like she's doing something. I don't know. It just makes me smile.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

Well, I mean so so when you retire and it goes missing, you'll be like, I don't know. I don't know what happened.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

I'll just I'll I'll banish it from the collection. No, I'll have to I'll I'll commission an artist to make me uh a rep a replica. I think I'll do that.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

So tell me about the coffin.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

So as I said, I've visited with many folks in their homes over the years, and this particular case, um not the urns. Not the urns, no. This man was known to me. He was actually on our collections committee and was downsizing, moving into a retirement facility. And so I didn't want to take his coffee? He didn't want well, I think he did take it. Okay. Um, and again, I knew him. Um, he was a very knowledgeable fellow, and he was a historian, but he was also a book expert. I don't think I'll say his name, but people will probably know who he is. Uh, he did many reports on uh Minnesota books, and he was also very Catholic. Uh he was uh did a lot of research on the Catholic Church, had been to the Vatican many times, and uh was just a knowledgeable fellow. He wasn't a priest, he easily could have been. Uh, he certainly kind of had that vibe about him. If he'd had a collar, it wouldn't have looked strange. But um, so I went to to his house to see what he had for Ramsay County Historical Society. And so I'm looking around and he's like, Oh, come in here. I have some things to show you, books. And then I go in to what is his bedroom, and there's a full-size coffin leaning against like Dracula coffin. I was gonna say, you know, it was wooden, it was wooden, unfinished. I mean, it was beautiful, it looked like a Dracula coffin. I don't know what that shape is. Well, and it was a jar. And I so I said his name, and I'm like, what is this? And he said, Oh, Molly, um, the brothers in at uh St. Joseph's made that for me. And I'm gonna be my funeral, I'm gonna be in that in my at my funeral. He has since passed this person, and and I didn't, I didn't know it. Uh, and or I would have totally gone, not just to pay my respects, but also to see if he was in that coffin. And um, so anyway, that's probably the weirdest thing I've seen that was was a shock moment for me to be like, oh um in your bedroom? In the bed, in his bedroom, in a jar. He's like sleeping in it and then Yeah, it was it was like Dracula had just slid it off. And but it was leaning. I mean, it was standing because he could have stepped into it and just leaned back. I guess it would be like this, but um anyway, great posture at night.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

So wait, so anyway, it was it was don't know if he actually used it.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

I don't, I don't, because it was during COVID years that he passed. So anyway, I don't know. I could maybe ask around the community, probably somebody I know when I could find it. Right, because he was so intertwined. He did a lot with the Hill manuscript library down at St. Joseph's. So I think in again, the the brothers of St. He I'm sure it's true. I don't he would not he would not have lied uh to me about that. And um I mean coffins are expensive, so one that's there was a whole story about somebody's mad because I'm not gonna buy a coffin. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

I don't remember the details of that part, but I was just still sort of shocked because there was a coffin in his bedroom. I'm not gonna buy a coffin, just dig a hole and put me in it. Right, right. Um legally, you can't do this. Okay, so tell me what do you want to see before you're retired from RCHS? What do you want to put in place?

SPEAKER_01 39:24

Um Well, I think I would say more, well, more processing done. There's always there's always a lot of backlog, and I think that's just always the case. Nobody's, I'm never gonna be like, oh, I'm just waiting for somebody to donate something, so I will have something to do. That's never the case. Um I'll give you work moments. Okay, thank you. I appreciate that. Like, oh my gosh, she's just sitting around waiting for things to show up. Uh coffins and the like. We didn't get the coffin, by the way. Uh it was all for him. But um, I think just making more getting more of the backlog done, but also making more of it available. And I think for better or worse, that's digitization. Uh, and while we are, and I you asked me about that a little while ago about the collection that is not free and open to the world. It is free and open to the world, I should say this, if you come to the research center. Um, and that's where the Mary uh Livingston Griggs, Mary Griggs Burke Research Center, which is in the lower level of the landmark center, uh open 20 hours a week. Check our website for those hours. But having more material that's more widely available, that would be the goal. Um for people to research, for people to research to see, you know, again, what's online right now? You could see uh if he had given us the coffin, it would be there. Uh uh you'd see a picture of it, you'd see multiple sides of it. Um, and so people can see the collection, even though it's not on exhibit. Uh, it is available. Uh you could type in any word and it will bring up anything that flags that word within our research collection or in our whole entire collection, whether whatever it is, an object, a book, a photo. That would be, I guess that's always the goal. Uh, and that's you know, there's been a shift in that forever it was before the internet, that it was the physical preservation of material, and it really was just exhibits and books and uh things that were published that made the collection available to the world. And now with digitization and just online catalog records available at any, really at any historical society almost, uh, you can look through their collection. And that is a way to broaden the accessibility of those to those stories, to a picture of whatever it is, but also uh access to linking all of those things. So, say a person gives that wedding dress, but also gives uh the wedding certificate and photos and whatever else. Once you click on one of them, the database is gonna pull all of it. So you would be able to see that whole story and you wouldn't have to buy a book about it or uh come to an exhibit.

SPEAKER_00 42:07

So, what if I donate something that's culturally inappropriate? Uh let's say I have an indigenous piece of art that doesn't come from my culture. Oh, does RCHS want to be the space for that kind of stuff?

SPEAKER_01 42:23

Um maybe. Uh, you know, this has been something. So I work with a committee of peers and board members and expert like the guy that was in the coffin, he was part of that committee, uh, who had an expertise. And um there are so many and more and more all the time um that have really culturally or community centered collections. There are a few uh in the twin cities in St. Paul of Hmong collections, uh ones at Concordia, one there's there's uh several. Um and so if something were to come, well, and for thinking of indigenous uh collections, maybe it's a piece of artwork by someone. Would we be the right place for that? I don't know. I would talk to the donor or you as the donor and think about who was the artist? Why, you know, to it to a degree, why do you have it? How did you come to have it? Uh, what did it do you know, you know, what the artist's intent in creating this was? Again, it's art, so um, are we the best repository for it? Or would an art museum, a sort of street mainstream art museum, be the appropriate place? Would a national museum of uh American uh Indian art uh or culture be a more appropriate place? Um, and that is something that I've talked about in committee for many years, um, is just being thoughtful and and not wanting to just grab things because they're being offered or because we can, but are we the right place? Thinking of not just cultural or community sensitivity. But also exhibitability, understanding the rules, cultural rules around privacy or appropriateness of displaying items that I wouldn't necessarily know, not being a part of that particular culture or not having that knowledge. So talking to other people is something that I would certainly recommend in that case, that I could either make those connections for the potential donor or the three or four of us talk about it together and just see what's the most appropriate place from that standpoint. But also are there other collections that already have representation of maybe an artist or whatever it is, uh a type of garment or a type of silver working or whatever it is that would be more appropriate. Um they already have a collection that they're building potentially, or that maybe they're missing something. To me, that's part of my job to make those discussions uh available uh to the. I mean, ultimately it's up to the donor what they want to do, but but also to us if we feel we're the appropriate, you know, we would have to accept it even if it was really like forcefully offered to say, okay, yes, we accept it, or we think me and others think that it this other you they might be better suited in another collection.

SPEAKER_00 45:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:24

I don't know if that answered your question exactly.

SPEAKER_00 45:26

That's okay. You did. I think I'm good. Awesome. All right, thank you so much. You are welcome. It was fun. Yeah.