Between 2 Urns - Aubry Walch

Today’s guest, Aubry Walch, is the co-founder of The Herbivorous Butcher—the nation’s first vegan butcher shop. What began as a laugh-out-loud idea at the dinner table quickly turned into a groundbreaking venture. In 2014, Aubry and her brother Kale introduced their meat-free creations at the Minneapolis Farmers Market, building a devoted following with just five products. By 2016, they opened their brick-and-mortar shop, redefining what a “butcher” could be. Today, Aubry continues to innovate, crafting bold, plant-based alternatives that challenge expectations and prove that good food can be both compassionate and delicious.

Between 2 Urns is hosted Youa Vang.
Technical support and editing is provided by Chris Koza.
Theme Song “Swaying Trees,” is written by Chris Koza.
Between 2 Urns is made possible by a grant from the Harlan Boss Foundation.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Some conversations are too interesting to stay buried. Between two urns is where history meets humanity. Equal parts irreverent and insightful. Each episode digs up the stories, legacies, and lingering questions we leave behind. This interview-driven podcast brings you candid conversations with people whose lives, work, and passions shape the stories we carry forward in Ramsey County. From artists and educators to community leaders and unexpected voices, we explore what drives us, challenges us, and ultimately connects us. Blending humor, honesty, and curiosity about the past and present between two urns proves that history isn't just something we inherit, it's something we live. Pull up a chair. The conversation is just getting started. Today's guest, Aubrey Walsh, is a co-founder of the Herbivorest Butcher, the nation's first vegan butcher shop. What began as a laugh-out loud idea at the dinner table quickly turned into a groundbreaking venture. In 2014, Aubrey and her brother Kale introduced their meat-free creations at the Minneapolis Farmers Market, building a devoted following with just five products. By 2016, they opened their brick and mortar shop, redefining what a butcher could be. Today, Aubrey continues to innovate, crafting bold plant-based alternatives that challenge expectations and prove that good food can be both compassionate and delicious. So welcome. Thank you. Uh, I'm excited to have you, Aubrey Waltz. So tell me a little bit about yourself, Aubrey. Um, about myself, gosh.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

I've lived a lot of lives. I was born and raised on Guam, so moved to the United States when I was 13 during like a time in my life where I could become anything I wanted to because I was a million miles away from home. Did you move to Minnesota? Yes, straight to Minnesota. Straight to Minnesota. Um, apparently, the legend goes, when I was 10 years old, my parents asked me if I wanted to move to the United States.

unknown 2:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

You know, and in my head, I'm thinking, oh my gosh, kids incorporated, like Mickey Mouse Club, I can totally audition. So I'm thinking LA, Orlando, stuff like that. I'd only been to California at that point. We my dad's from San Diego, so we would go back and forth. So I'm like, absolutely, I definitely want to move to the United States. No one said Minnesota, no one said winter. At the time, I didn't even own a long pair of pants. Okay. So here I am a million years later. And what's what's temperature like in Guam? So was it a culture shift? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. The fluctuation in temperature is about, I think it gets as low as maybe 76. Oh, 77. And then it doesn't get above about 85. Okay. And it's like swimming. The humidity is heavy.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Okay, so your skin is always soft then.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Um, yeah, still surprisingly, even though it's been like 30 years since I've been here.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

What was it like uh growing up in a space like going to school, especially at you said 13? Yeah. You're in a space where you're like, I just want to disappear. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

Different. Oh, it was um, it was really strange because uh on Guam, I went to a college prep school, St. John's prep school. And so it was really weird because then that when I came here and I'm going into public schools, I've been wearing a uniform my entire life. And here I had to become somebody. Okay. And it was really hard to figure out how to. I mean, something so simple as what you put on in the morning. I had no idea, and it was so strange. And being the weird kid from Guam and people didn't know where Guam was, and where in Russia is Guam? You speak really good English for someone from Guam, like you get all those different things because people have no idea. Where is Guam? Guam is southeastern east of um Japan, so it's like a three and a half hour flight from Japan. Yeah, really just in the middle of nowhere, in the northern Marianas. Okay, and then language spoken? Uh English is the primary language, it's a US territory, so they teach English in school, but in my family, you know, we grew up my aunts and uncles and mom all spoke Chamorro, which is the native language.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:27

Yeah, unfortunately, I can understand when they're talking, but I can't really speak it.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Yeah. So we recently did a fellowship with among people here. We picked four people and they chose parts of the culture that they are trying to preserve. None of them chose language, and I always think language is the first thing to go. Yeah. Every time, anytime you assimilate, you move to a new place, that's the first thing to go. And I wonder, you know, I I don't know the science behind it, but like there's probably some study why that's the first thing to go. Yeah. Um, but I am working on a book as well that talks about how I connect to my culture and it's through food. And I feel like that is the biggest connector. Oh, absolutely. Um, before I we head into that and uh what you do in your day-to-day life. I the first time I met you, I think was at the Walker Art Center. No, I'm sorry, it was Mia. Oh, yeah. And Mark Mothersbaugh was in town and he was doing signings of his thing. And I think I known your name from our mutual friend Craig Grossman.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

Yep, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

And he introduced me to you. And I think you were still working in music at that time.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

Yeah, probably.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

So tell me about your work in music then.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

Sure, yeah. When I moved, like I was saying, when I moved here, I you know, I wanted to be famous. That's what the United States is about, right? And so I came here and kind of realized that I couldn't play an instrument. I didn't really, I wasn't really good at dancing, and I can't really sing. So I wanted to do something in music.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

And so it sort of like fell into my lap, kind of. I was working at this um record store in uptown called Synesthasia.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Is it still here?

SPEAKER_02 6:11

No, no, it was like the the Rave record store, electronic music record store. It was on the corner of Lake and Lyndale. I was just working there for a summer. I had three jobs that summer, and I would walk from Dunbrothers on, you know, 34th in Hennepin to Synesthasia, and then I'd go work at my other jaw, and it was kind of crazy. And because I was 15, I was wanting to plan my 16th birthday party. And this DJ who was from Chicago, but you know, kind of went between Chicago and Minneapolis. His name was DJ Boogie, okay. Which people probably know if you've been around for a while. But he said, You should throw a rave for your 16th birthday. Okay. And I thought, well, I don't know how to do that. I don't know how to throw a rave. I'm 15 years old. And so he said, you know, I'll help you. And then 20 minutes later, this kid walks in and he said, Well, my car's overheating. Does anyone know what to do? And I said, Well, my parents' car overheats all the time. I totally know what to do. So I went out to help them. And then his friend showed up, and then all of a sudden we were all talking, and we decided that we were going to throw my 16th birthday party. And it ended up turning into a rave. And so that's how I got into promoting raves. And so I did that until the year I graduated from high school in '99. Okay. And so I threw parties for up to 5,000 people, and oh my gosh. It was crazy.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Yeah. Wait, like, how do you move into that? Like, what are the steps where you're like, I have to learn how to do promotion? Yeah. I I, you know, it's kind of weird.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

Like I knew what you needed a rave, right? You needed a hundred thousand watts of sound, you needed lasers, you needed huge lights, you needed a really big space you weren't gonna get caught in, you know. And so I kind of like just listed out all the things I needed. You needed DJs with reputable names from around the world, and I yeah, I just figured it out. It was weird because when I look back at my notebooks from back then, I thought, oh my gosh, I was so organized. I had a pager, I had a cell phone the size of a brick, and I had a voicemail. Like you could call my voicemail and leave me messages. It was crazy.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Wait, so you were 16, 17?

SPEAKER_02 8:18

Yeah, so I did it till I was 18. Okay. Yeah, I know. Was it what you wanted it to be? Yeah. Really? It was everything I wanted it to be. It was so fun. You know, I got to meet DJs from all over the world. I got to plan huge parties where people had a good fun time. And my favorite thing to do, I threw four parties total. And my favorite thing to do would be during our headlining DJ, I would put a chair right behind them, you know, not so close that I was touching them. And I would stand up and I would look above their heads and I would see all the faces of people just like with their hands up and dancing. And I always threw out all of these like blow up like animals or blow up guitars, and so they were just flying around. I don't know. It was just the coolest thing. I'd you know, like the rush I would get in my heart from like seeing these people was amazing. So then so that's how I started getting into music.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

Yeah. So, but then you became an agent?

SPEAKER_02 9:16

Yeah, so I went from there, and then um this band reached out to me called Somerset. I don't know if you remember, they're like a pop punk band. I don't I know the name, yeah. Okay, super nice kids, and they needed a manager. And like, well, I know I've worked with managers of DJs, so I think I can do this. So then I started working with them and kind of helped them out, and that morphed into people kind of finding out what I did. I was working at Whole Foods at the time at the bakery, and there was a gentleman that worked in another department, and he said, I heard you do music. Vamp music source is hiring an intern. Okay. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:52

I was like, Yeah, I would love to do that. You know, I was gonna go to school for it, but hey, if I can just jump into an internship, yeah, amazing.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

I wish I knew that. Oh so I would just go for music business, that's where I met Craig. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was my teacher for artist management and touring management too. And I wanted to be a tour manager, yeah. I was like, I'm gonna do all this, and then I mean, it was only a two-year course, but I was 30 at the time, and I'm like, I am way too old to be doing that. So it's interesting. So that's why I asked, was it what you wanted it to be? And I think by the time I was done, I was like, it isn't what I want it to be.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

Right. Yeah, the rave, the rave promoting was one thing, but once I got into booking, it wasn't what I wanted it to be. What did you want it to be? I don't know. I you're sitting at a computer all day, yeah. I mean, I guess like I wanted it to feel good, like I was booking these shows for these new bands, but it just made me feel bad that in order to live, I needed to take a commission from a band I knew was having a really hard time on the road. Yes, and so it got to the point where I just couldn't take money from them and I couldn't pay my bills because I ugh it just like felt so gross when like that I get $90 from that show and now you won't eat dinner. Yes, so I just I I couldn't do it anymore. Okay, and I stopped. How long were you doing that? Gosh, I think I did that for like almost 10 years, yeah, a long time. You put in your time, and I just no way, well, didn't work. I had to have other jobs the whole time because I was so like, well, then music doesn't pay unless you're like in that one percent.

SPEAKER_01 11:27

Right, right. So I wish I'd known that going into the music industry. I was like, oh, I shouldn't have. I don't regret any of it, yeah. But I'm like, I wish I would have known that. Right. Yeah, exactly. I feel the same way. So what shifted out of that? And when did do you was there like a moment where you're like, I mean, it changes, or was it gradual?

SPEAKER_02 11:46

Yeah, it was really gradual because I actually like moved out to LA. I mean, it lasted two months. Okay. Um, I was like, Craig, I'm gonna, you know, start a wing of the booking agency out there. And I got out there, I was like, what am I doing out here? This is insane. And I had to get a temp job so I could make enough money to move home. And I was like, this is not working. And then I came back and just worked. I was an office manager at an for an art company, and I never cooked, I never really did any of that. Like I cooked at home with my mom when we'd make my grandma's recipes, but back then the you know, the vegan meat options were so minimal, and it was mostly tofu and like Saitan stuff. And um, so I just I was never even never even thought about cooking. And what's cuisine like in Guan? Um, it's like a a like a melting pot of food from all over the world, but a lot of our dishes are very similar to Filipino dishes. Okay, we just have different names, yeah, and we think ours is better, but it's exactly the same. That's Hmong Fu too.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

Vietnamese Thai, it's all the same, but like my mom cooks. We Hmong dishes are very bland because there's not like storage, so you boil your meat, but then Thai food is very spicy, right? You know, and uh I mean Hmong is too, but like they add a lot of lemon flavors, all that stuff too. So I'm like, oh, some of this is Thai food, right? It's not ours, yeah. Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:14

Guamanian food is like vinegar, soy sauce, garlic, and onions, like everything has that. But it's you know, you can see the American influence in it, and you can see the Japanese influence.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

So you were making food with your mom.

SPEAKER_02 13:28

Yeah, I mean, just family meals and whatever. Did she have anything written down? Um, no. Guamanian cooking is, I mean, it's probably similar in Hmong. It's like a little bit of this, a little bit of this, yeah, and you just eyeball it. Yeah. It t till it tastes right, you know. That's what my grandma said. And what does that mean? Yeah. Just a little bit, count to two. Yes. But like, it just was like a I don't even know how it happened, honestly. I was at home one day and I was really, really bored, and I really wanted this one dish that my grandma used to make called Stufal. And in the Philippines, it's chicken adobo. I was like, how do I do this? And so then I got this cookbook at um just a store here, and it was called Vegan Vittles. I was like, okay, here's a basic mock duck recipe. I'm just gonna make this and see what happens.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

And you were vegan at that time, too.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

Yeah, yeah. I went vegan when I was almost 14, like 13 and a half. So at this point, I'm like 18, 19, and I did it and I made it, and then I made my grandma's dish, and it tasted amazing. Okay. The texture's great, and so it kind of just went from there. And I was cooking for myself, and my brother was still really young because we're 13 years apart, and as he got older, he saw that I was vegan. And at the time, you know, we're all a little bit militant when we're young because we were passionate, and so I was definitely sending him PETA videos, watch this, just watch it. And then he finally flipped over and went vegan. And you know, it was kind of a joke one day because I would always cook for friends and stuff. And I said, Well, we should open a vegan butcher shop, hilarious, you know, and it was just this kind of joke, and then like oh that sounds weird. And my one of my favorite movies of all time is So I Married an Axe Murder, and I always love the butcher shop scene with the haggis, and and so then yeah, and then we just that kind of took it from there, figured it out. So it was mostly a joke that turned into what I do now.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

I I didn't know you at that time, and all of a sudden you're like, we're opening up this space, and everybody's talking about like how do you move from cooking for friends, being at home, to shifting, we're gonna buy a place, we're gonna hire people, we're gonna have to meet all these standards.

SPEAKER_02 15:46

Yeah, what are the steps? Yeah, so like it started out by I went to women venture. Okay, and they offered free classes on starting businesses, and there was one for food businesses, and I had I had never worked in a uh commercial kitchen, I had never worked in a restaurant except when I worked at Whole Foods, and then you know, I've worked at coffee shops and stuff. So I I learned a lot there. I learned a lot about marketing for a business and you know, a lot of the basics. And someone that was in the women venture classes with me said, You should check out Kindred Kitchen, which is the it was an incubator in North Minneapolis. And so I talked the women venture people into letting my brother come to a class. And they're like, Yeah, as long as you just sit in the back because he's it's 18 or he's not threatening, yeah. Yeah. So he came and sat through a class, and then we went and took a class over at Kindred Kitchen. Okay. Yeah, and then we decided we were gonna start out at the farmer's market, and so we applied for that. And you know, we had no money, but every little bit we had we kind of put into it and the whole like store thing. So we started at the farmer's market our first day. Six products is all we started with. And we both had full-time jobs, and so we would like cook Thursday night, package Friday night for the weekend, and we'd bring our coolers with ice bricks and stuff. Um, and you do have to keep that stuff cold even though it's not meat. Absolutely, yeah. It's it's the you know the same health standards as you know, any kind of food. But um, the first day we sold out and then we kept selling out.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Is it because you were talking to people or is it because this was a market that wasn't being met before?

SPEAKER_02 17:27

I think it was a little bit of both, you know, like uh people were confused. What is this? You know, what is meat-free meat? Yes. Like, oh well, let me tell you, you know, my brother would wear this like dandy jacket, and he would stand out with the tray and give people samples, and we'd always give people samples of the Italian sausage because it's super meaty and most accessible, yeah, yep. And so people would try it, and they're like, oh my gosh, is this venison? What is this? No, it's vegan actually. So I think we What was in it? Um, so that one has a high protein wheat flour. We use pinto beans in there and different oils and juices that kind of break apart the protein and the in the wheat. Yeah, from there it just kind of spiraled out of control and we had to cook more. And every weekend it was a little bit more. And a guy approached us at the farmer's market one day and he said, you know, I I make food for assisted living facilities. Okay. And the guy I work for has about, you know, 35 all over the country. And I want you to meet him because he he's trying to change all of the his facilities over to a vegan diet so that people can get off their meds. And it's called the Food for Life program. So we met with this guy and he said, you know, I want you to cook for all of my facilities. Okay. Like, okay, well, we've been in business for like two months. I don't, I don't know. We we're working out of this kitchen, we pay, you know, a hundred dollars an hour. I don't think we can. That's a lot of money, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so he kept talking to us, and then finally I said, Okay, he said, I'll build you a kitchen. Oh, and I said, You build us a kitchen and a storefront, and we will cook for your facilities. Okay. And so it just kind of went from there. And another gentleman at the farmers market approached us and he said, I he was an architect, and he said, I want to build your your butcher shop. I was like, Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

Sometimes, and you wonder, like, are these people gonna scam me?

SPEAKER_02 19:27

Yeah, right, exactly. But it was it how it came together, it was so driven by the community. It was just like these people really supporting us in a way that I haven't felt supported since I moved to the United States, you know? And so it was kind of this amazing clash of amazing things. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

Can I dial it back just a second? Yeah, when you're creating these recipes, these meats, and you guys were working in the kitchen. Was it a lot of trial and error? Oh, absolutely. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

So nothing but trial and error. For I mean, and even then it was a lot of trial and error, and even now we're still improving our products all the time. And now we have to look at it, you know, the big picture and say, okay, we're gonna improve this family of products because there's labels involved and blah, blah, blah. I don't know, even now we really listen to our customer base, so it it's it's exactly how it used to be. And a lot of our original recipes after those first six were very much driven by what our customers at the farmers market asked for.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

And then so you opened up in Northeast that was to 2014. Okay. No, 16, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 20:37

14 was a farmer's market. 16.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

Yeah, so almost 10 years ago. Yeah. What were you feeling like when you guys were like, okay, we're ready to go, we're ready to launch. Was it nerve-wracking? Was it exciting? Was it all these things?

SPEAKER_02 20:50

Yeah, it was kind of all those things, and the fear of failing too. Okay, you know, we had an investor, he built this thing for us. The architect did come along with us. Oh, yeah, and we're still so close. And um, yeah, he's amazing. Yeah, it was it was all sorts of things, and I feel like I haven't really taken a second to like pinch myself and say, hey, you know, you've you did these things because it's just weird, it's weird, you know. I've always been an employee my whole life, and I feel like I'm still an employee, and I will always be an employee, even though you're the owner. But you know, my employees are my bosses, really. Because if I don't listen to them, then I'm I'm nobody.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

That's that's the mark of a leader. You're the least focal person in the space. I think people who think what leaders are, you have the least control. You know, you ha or you have to give up that control. Exactly. Trying to contain that is gonna be detrimental to what you want to be doing. You should have the vision. Yeah, you should lead that, but the control sometimes isn't yours.

SPEAKER_02 21:52

Absolutely. And once other people see your vision, then not listening to them is doing a disservice to yourself. You know, they're the ones leading at that point.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Yeah. I do obviously I own a lucrative business with my sister too. And sometimes I'm just like, okay, I do have to pause and appreciate what we do have and what we've created and done. But I know exactly what you mean when you say that. But I also think when people see success, right, they think it's like this linear thing, and they're like, We see you, you have the voice, you have all this, but then they also don't see all the struggles that go into it. Ups and downs every day where the imposter syndrome is always there. Every day it's chasing you, and you're just like, Okay, well, I can do my best every day. But I think people forget just how nonlinear that path to success is, and that the meaning of success changes, shifts every day. Um, you know, and I think about you guys had Herbie's fried chicken. Yeah. And so that was successful, but then like it's closed now, is that correct? Yeah. So, like, what led to that too? And then also, how do you redefine was that a failure? Is that a learning experience? How does that work?

SPEAKER_02 23:04

Yeah. So Herby's kind of came out of needing comfort during the pandemic. You know, we pivoted really quickly and figured out that we could do curbside, and a lot of our customers were like, Oh gosh, we really wish you'd make something like fried chicken or some hot meals now for us to take home since we can't eat out. And so we decided to do that. So we started making fried chicken, and then people really wanted it, but we don't have fryers at the butcher shop, you know. So we found a small space in South Minneapolis and decided we were gonna do it. It was a passion project that we did during the pandemic, very much for ourselves, but also for the people. And we, you know, we put in a takeout window and you listened to it before it was. Yeah, and I think it's it served its purpose and it made a lot of people happy during the pandemic, and it was time for it to move on. And you know, herby's never we still sell the frozen fried chicken, and you know, this year at the state fair we sold it, and it'll always be there, but it was something that was necessary at that time, and when it was time for it to be done, it was time. How do you know? I don't know. I I think we just knew that fried chicken didn't have its place in kind of the scheme of how vegan food ebbs and flows. Okay. It felt really good to get it going, but it also felt really good to close up that portion of our life. And you know, for me, like I don't like to say that I have regrets because I don't know. I just like I don't believe in regrets. I kind of take them as lessons. Okay. And if I can take something out of something that is bad, sure, you know, that happened, and I can learn from it, then it's it was a success to me. Okay. Because then I know exactly what I can do next time. Or like it's just rewarding knowing that I did it, I tried it, yeah, and what's next?

SPEAKER_01 24:59

Yeah. I love that. I I always hope that because I don't live with regrets either. I'm just like, okay, let's move on. Just another thing. Yeah. So before that, you guys had the name vegan butcher. Yeah. And then a big name company came by and was like, we want to take this too. Yeah. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

SPEAKER_02 25:24

Yeah. So um one thing we did, we wanted some terms that we had coined, we wanted to trademark brother butcher, sister butcher, meat-free meats, cheese free cheese. For some reason, we were able to trademark those. Okay. But vegan butcher was too vague. So when you send in an application to the trademark office, they say this is descriptive.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

This is not so we said, okay. Did you learn this through woman venture too? To trademark these things?

SPEAKER_02 25:53

No, no, actually. No, we actually learned it through our um investor. Okay. He was very big about like protect what you started, you know. And so, but we kept watching it because you can look it up online and see, you know, if someone else has applied for it or this or that. And so one day I was like, Oh, I'm gonna look it up. And it looked like someone had applied for it, okay, and it was moving through. Uh-oh. So I reached out to our business lawyer and I said, Oh my gosh, you know, that this this company, yes, it was a subsidiary of the larger conglomerate. They looked it up and figured out exactly who it was. And at the time that business had a vegan line of food that they did, frozen food. And the trademark office was fast tracking it to getting approved.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

And they have the money, so and they have the money.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

And we had 10 days to appeal it. And so we just we got our stuff together and we appealed it. And once that company saw what we were doing, they had their lawyers call us. They were threatening to cancel a lot of our existing trademarks that had been approved, including our name, the herbivorous butcher. And I, you know, I thought, can you really do can you just cancel that? I don't know, I have no idea, right? But our lawyers said it it is possible with enough money and enough court time. And everyone, you know, all of the people I talked to said, this corporation has dragged so many people through mud and until they're broke. Yeah, because they have the money, of course. Right. They're really want to do this. And I was like, well, you know, I didn't start this business to back down. People have been making fun of me for starting a vegan butcher shop since we started, but I've never stopped. And so I, you know, I if they had gotten the trademark, no one else would be able to use the term vegan butcher, including uh the vegan butchers down in uh Indiana and New York and all over the United States. And so I decided to fight it because I wanted to protect it for the vegan community so that we could use it. And so now not only do we not own it ourselves, it's just available to whoever wants to use it.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

I love that. And I love that it's community-based. Yeah, I mean, that's who built us. Then remind me what was the outcome. That did they back down?

SPEAKER_02 28:21

Did you uh took them to court through, and you know, we didn't have to go to court or anything, but we had a really incredible lawyer who stood by us and um they sort of quietly backed down. Okay. We did a little bit of press around it, but not anything crazy because I just didn't feel like it was necessary to I don't know. Nothing good comes out of saying bad things about anybody, no matter how bad they are. So publicly.

SPEAKER_00 28:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

To your friends, publicly to your friends, you can say something. Yes, what yeah, they ended up backing down and um well they dropped trying to get the trademark, and now it's out there for everyone, and no one can apply for it now.

SPEAKER_01 29:04

Okay. I live right by Jay Selby in St. Paul. Yeah. And you know, our organization, this podcast, is about people who make Ramsey County what it is. Uh, how did Jay Selby come about? So the gentleman who started Jay Selby's super passionate about the diet and and what a plant-based diet can do for yeah, and keep talking, but um, I forgot to say too, before it was Jay Selby, there was a barbecue place where the Amberguesa's El Gordo was. Yeah. So I when I was living there, there was a convenience store.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

Yeah, a lot of people have told us some pretty good stories about the convenience store. Yeah, so we sort of grew up around the same time as Jay Selby's. J. Selby's opened a year after us, and so you know, two vegan businesses in a state or you know, a city where there's not that many. Yeah. So it was it was really nice having them around. And did they source your food for their um they did at the beginning. Yeah, yep. And then um he was passionate about the diet and what it would do for people. And it just kind of came to the time where he wanted to retire. Okay. And so he came to us and said, I, you know, I want to leave it in the hands of people who will keep it going. And so we took over in 2022 and we've kept it basically exactly how it always was. We thought, well, maybe we'll change it and we'll put our products in there, and it can kind of be a place to showcase our products. But then the more I got to know the people that work there and uh was around with the people eating there, I realized that the food that was already there was what the community wanted. And it was this space that brought people together, and you could bring your families and you were comfortable, and it didn't matter what you were wearing, or you know, or and it did nothing mattered. And I thought that was so beautiful, so we decided to keep it exactly the way it was.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

And it once again, community, yeah, yeah, and it it's it's we we love it. Yeah. Uh correct me if I'm incorrect. Do you do something around Thanksgiving? Yeah, okay. Tell me about that.

SPEAKER_02 31:09

Yeah, so the original owner started it on Thanksgiving. They um always did a free meal. Okay, so you can come in and no questions asked, you get a free meal, and it's all plant-based, so it's you know, vegan turkey and stuffing and you know, all fix-ins. So we continued it, and I think it stopped one year during COVID. They stopped it. Okay. But yeah, so it's something that we'll continue going forward.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

So why do that for people?

SPEAKER_02 31:39

Um, you know, holidays, I I don't know why he started it, but um, we I wanted to continue it because holidays can be really lonely, you know, if you don't have family, or even if you do and you're not talking to them. I I remember when I I was in LA for one Thanksgiving and I went to a free Thanksgiving because it was I didn't I only had a couple friends there. And just being able to be in a space, even just hearing people talk and laugh and have fun, like even though I only had a couple friends, it just made that day so much less lonely. Sure. It's something I want to continue because whether or not you have family or you have a place to go eat, it's a place where everyone can just come together. And you know, a lot of people will come and get the free meal, but they'll donate because we do uh a community bowl. Sure. So anyone can come in anytime you can pay nothing, you can pay full price, and all the money that's paid for that bowl goes into paying for a bowl for other people.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

Got it.

SPEAKER_02 32:44

So it's just kind of a pay it forward thing, and then you can order it to go, you can do whatever you need to. So it's always there for people.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

Do you feel like people are more generous than they yeah?

SPEAKER_02 32:54

It's always been great, you know, and we're so happy to be able to offer something for people that need something.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

So, you know, I know you talked about like sending your brother Pita videos and all that too, but like how do you talk about your veganism without sounding preachy?

SPEAKER_02 33:12

Yeah, I mean, I when I first went vegan, it was for animals. I was working at a grocery store and um I was a grocery bagger and it was my first job. And I always thought it was weird that I have to double bag the meat. Like, why do I have to double bag it? Because it's so heavy? Uh no, because the liquid in there. Oh, gosh. I'm like, oh, that's so strange. And then I just decided one day that I I was gonna stop eating animal products, and I called my mom and I said, Mom, I'm gonna have my last meat meal today. And she said, Well, what are you gonna have? The lemon chicken from Lian Chin. So I had my last. So I had like the fried rice, you know, the egg-fried rice and the lemon chicken, and that was the last bit of animal products I ever ate. And I just never looked back. But for me, it was very much about animals and ethics. And when I was young, oh boy, I definitely was out there with the fake blood, and I was, you know, rescuing chickens and all that, you know, yelling at people. But as I got older, I kind of realized that people just they're so combative. Yeah, you know, obviously, I'm yelling in their face. Of course you're gonna be combative. Anybody would. And so then once I started cooking food just for friends and stuff, and people were eating it, they weren't asking questions. Oh, this is really good, this is great. And I thought, wow, this is working. Yeah, you know, these people are like eating this, and then they're asking where they can get this. You could gently call them out instead of calling them out. Right. And so ever since then, I kind of realized as long as I can get someone to try something, yeah, that maybe it'll change their mind, you know. And I'm not, I'm not trying to make the entire world vegan. I just want one person I meet to have one vegan meal a week. It's so bad now that the smallest change that anyone can make makes all the change in the world. And I, you know, a lot of people use the word plant-based or whatever. People don't like using the word vegan, but I do still use the word vegan. I will never back down from that.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

I'm not vegan, but I have like distinct memories of back in the day, and I just being six or seven years old on a Saturday morning, and my mom she made um tofu, and her tofu is so good. I don't usually eat like store-bought one. Yeah, but I love hers because she'll take it and she'll fry it in olive oil, and it's crispy and it's so good. And I eat it with rice soup. Once in a while, every Saturday, she would blend it, and it was old blender too. So, like you're watching cartoons and the TV just turns snowy because she's blending in the kitchen. Like, I can't watch this, you know.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

But it like I love tofu, and yeah, I grew up eating it, and so it's like one of my favorite foods. I don't understand how people are like, oh my god, is that is it made of tofu? That's always one of the first questions we get. Yeah, and oh like, no, but I wish it was.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

So, where do you see the future of herbivores? But I know you guys had a fire, so I'm yeah, sorry, let's talk about that. Like, oh yeah, tell me how you're feeling.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

What's yeah, I mean, I'm like one of those people who gets through hard times with humor. You know, it just was what it was, and it has completely closed right now. Complete, yep, we've been completely closed since May 13th. Okay. Um and then the plan is to renovate? Uh yeah, so we're at the end of the construction finally. Um, they are we're hoping they'll get our equipment back in at the end of next week. Okay. Um, we started pre-orders for our Thanksgiving meal because everyone was freaking out that maybe they wouldn't get their turkeys. And so we started that and we're hoping to open the second weekend in November. Okay. Yeah, it's been a it's been a slug.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

Could you just have like wiped your hands clean too? Was that ever a thought to be like?

SPEAKER_02 37:03

Oh god, no. Okay, no, no way. This is my life. This is my baby, my employees are my family. Like thankfully, we had good enough insurance and we did a GoFundMe. So between both of those, everyone has been paid, all their benefits taken care of for the whole time. And I wouldn't have it any other way. They're my people.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

Good. Yeah. Once again, community. Yeah, you know. So what is the future? Do you guys have plans to open more spaces?

SPEAKER_02 37:32

Yeah, you know, we there was a time where we had all of these plans. Okay. And people were really encouraging us to get stuff in grocery stores and you know, go big. And right before COVID, we we had put all those business plans together. We were talking to banks, let's get a facility. And then COVID came and everything stopped. Yep. The bank said we're not funding any food businesses. So because it was COVID, no one knew what was gonna happen. So I think the store we closed on March 14th of 2020.

SPEAKER_00 38:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 38:07

Two weeks before that, we had just given the bank our application. Oh gosh. And so I'm like, oh my god, what's happening? Like, what was it a blessing in disguise? Yeah, oh, absolutely. Okay. And so that and then herbies came out of that, and we kind of realized that I love grocery store products. Okay, and I'm not when when I talk about it, I'm not saying that they're bad because you know, love me of beyond brat, but um, I feel like it's from what my background is and why we started the business, having a frozen food product is not something that I ever wanted to have. You know, I I like the face-to-face contact with people, I like making things with my hands. I don't want to make things with machines. And so I feel like I learned a lot about myself from that whole thing. And I learned a lot about my employees and what they want, and they didn't want that either. Okay. So I think it was all of it was a big blessing in disguise, the whole thing. And so the future, I don't know what the future holds yet. And that's okay. Yeah, you know, we have the state fair, and everyone that works at HB, we all have our ideas and hopes and dreams of what we want. And I think that over the next few years we'll all figure it out together.

SPEAKER_01 39:24

I love that you call it HB because whenever I say herbivores, but you're a tongue twister, right?

SPEAKER_02 39:29

Yeah, it's funny. Everyone told me no one be able to pronounce it. Even our investor couldn't pronounce it until the day he died. He just Oh no, no one could pronounce it.

SPEAKER_01 39:37

Um, back to what you said about mass production. I think about that a lot too, because like you as a creator, first of all, you're creating a product essentially of what people are really drawn to. Part of it is they're drawn to you too, because they want you to succeed and they like you. So they're like, even though I don't know the product, I'm gonna like it because of you. And then the product turns out to be good too. So but then also people are like, okay, let's mass produce this. And then I think about that all the time, especially with my product, because people are like, Oh, well, you can mass produce this, you can print this. And I'm like, it just takes away from what I originally wanted it to be, right? And the dilution of what it is, I'm just like, I'm not okay with that. Yeah, yeah. And I'm always like, I'm okay with keeping it small, and my capacity is only here. Maybe I'll grow to be big one day, but I don't want to see this at a big name store and be like, oh, it's just it's mass produced, right?

SPEAKER_02 40:39

You know, yeah, it just didn't feel right. And you know, there was like a whole negotiation thing where we found this company we were gonna work with and this gentleman, and we were so close. Okay, and and we could have been in grocery stores all over the United States, maybe even all over the world by this point. But I stuck I snuck some things into the contract because I had suspicions on maybe where these people stood politically, and that maybe we didn't agree.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

And that should be important to some if that's important to you, you should be aware of that too.

SPEAKER_02 41:12

Yeah, so I snuck some of it in the contract, and when they got to that part, they said we can't sign it unless you take it out. And I said, We're not gonna take it out. And that was also another stepping stone. Like, I'm gonna have to make concessions with where I want to believe and who I want to support because I don't have the money to do it, I need someone else. Yeah, so there you go.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

Just didn't feel right, and you know your boundaries, and you know what you want. Yep, that's the most important thing. So, last question for you outside of HB, outside of all of this, what do you want people to see when they see you as a person? A friend?

SPEAKER_02 41:51

Okay, I guess every day I can't, I and so like they set those school set those standards a little happy. You know what? Like maybe I made them smile. At least I didn't flip them off when they cut me off on the road. Just like start small, and so I just hope that when people see me, they just see someone that's exactly like them.

SPEAKER_01 42:15

If only we could all think that way, right? The world would be better, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:20

Maybe, yeah. Or it'll, you know, just be kind of quiet, yeah, quietly compassionate or something. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 42:29

Well, thank you so much. Yeah. Um, one thing I like to pretend to do is guests I have. I say, I have beef with you. That's why I invited you here today, but I can't say I'm beef because you're vegan. So you have vegan beef. Yeah, I have vegan beef with you. Well, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 42:45

Of course, thank you for having me. It was so fun.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

Between two urns is hosted by me, you of A. Technical support and editing is provided by Chris Coza. Our theme song, Swaying Trees, is written by Chris Coza. Between Two Earns is made possible by a grant from the Harlan Voss Foundation. For more information about Ramsey County Historical Society, please visit www.rchs.com. Thanks for listening.