Between 2 Urns
Between 2 Urns is an interview-based podcast that weaves together the personal stories of everyday Ramsey County residents doing extraordinary things—and extraordinary residents living everyday lives. Each episode invites listeners into a conversation that explores what drives us, challenges us, and connects us as humans.
Through thoughtful, empathetic interviews, B2U uncovers and documents the humor, heartbreak, and hope within real human experiences—from artists and educators to entrepreneurs, leaders, and change-makers in our community.
This podcast isn’t about celebrity; it’s about humanity.
Between 2 Urns
Between 2 Urns - Marc Heu
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Today’s guest St. Paul resident, Marc Heu. Today’s guest, Marc Heu, has a story shaped by resilience, reinvention, and a lifelong love of pastry. Born in France to Laotian refugee parents and raised in the jungles of French Guiana, Marc’s early life was far from traditional—but it’s where his passion for baking began. Though he was steered toward medicine, a turning point brought him to Minnesota, where he rediscovered his dream. Trained at the prestigious École Lenôtre in Paris, Marc honed his craft before returning to Saint Paul to open Marc Heu Pâtisserie Paris. Today, he shares world-class French pastry with the community that helped him build his new home.
Between 2 Urns is hosted by Youa Vang.
Technical support and editing is provided by Chris Koza.
Theme Song “Swaying Trees,” is written by Chris Koza.
Between 2 Urns is made possible by a grant from the Harlan Boss Foundation.
Some conversations are too interesting to stay buried. Between two urns is where history meets humanity. Equal parts irreverent and insightful. Each episode digs up the stories, legacies, and lingering questions we leave behind. This interview-driven podcast brings you candid conversations with people whose lives, work, and passions shape the stories we carry forward in Ramsey County. From artists and educators to community leaders and unexpected voices, we explore what drives us, challenges us, and ultimately connects us. Blending humor, honesty, and curiosity about the past and present between two urns proves that history isn't just something we inherit, it's something we live. Pull up a chair. Born in France to Laotian refugee parents and raised in the jungles of French Guyana, Mark's early life was far from traditional, but it's where his passion of baking began. Though he was steered towards medicine, a turning point brought him to Minnesota, where he rediscovered his dream. Trained at a prestigious school in Paris, Marc owned his craft before returning to St. Paul to open Marquis Patisserie Paris. Today he shares his world-class French pastry with the community wherein he makes his new home. Welcome, Mark. Thanks for having me, you are. What's the first podcast?
SPEAKER_00It was uh bougie the unbougie foodie. Yes. It was a I think a year one of business.
SPEAKER_01What did they ask you about?
SPEAKER_00Uh my whole uh like education through like going to into pastry and how I made it to uh Frogtown and why Frogtown out of all St. Paul or Minnesota. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So um I'd like guests to introduce themselves. Tell me tell me the elevator pitch about you.
SPEAKER_00My name is uh Mark Hugh. I'm the executive pastry chef and owner at uh Mark Hugh Batisti Paris in St. Paul, Minnesota. And uh I am uh Mo.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00I was born and raised in France.
SPEAKER_01Okay. And what when did you immigrate to the US?
SPEAKER_00I came here on vacation in August 22nd of 2012.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So not that long ago then.
SPEAKER_00Like 13 years ago.
SPEAKER_01Okay. For the record, how do you pronounce your last name?
SPEAKER_00In the US it's hu. Like the way it's spelled.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00In French, it's uh.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and in Hong is her.
SPEAKER_01Her, okay. Which do you prefer?
SPEAKER_00I I got used to hu. And I have a funny uh story. The first time I came to the US, I mean, when they I think it was at the immigration or something, when they called my name, they were like uh Mr. Hugh, Mr. Hugh, and uh I was the only one in the room. Okay, but I was like, who are they calling? And they were like Mr. Hugh, and they're staring at me, like Mark Hugh, and I just like oh I guess it's me.
SPEAKER_01So you're like, oh, it's me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I am really curious about your immigration story. How did your family land in France? Yeah, because I know when the secret war ended and then uh the US pulled out, and then all these Hmong people were had to seek asylum.
SPEAKER_00Yes. So why why my family or how they ended up in France? So my dad, when he was younger, he always told me that he had to walk like uh a day or two to go to a bigger city to go to school.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00And uh in that elementary school they were teaching uh some French.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00So uh with that skill knowledge that he had, when it was time to uh to leave the country, he said he actually had a chance to or the choice to come either to the US or to France. But since he did not speak English, I mean he did not speak French either, but he had a couple notion of French. He was like, Oh, I think it would be better for me and my family to go to France. So that's how that's how my family ended up in France.
SPEAKER_01Was there a big community among people in France?
SPEAKER_00I'm actually not sure because if I mean if even if there was, we don't live all together. Like in the US, like one of the biggest communities here in Minnesota and then in California and then in Wisconsin. But in France, we kind of like live like dispersed, like in uh south, north, east, west.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00And when it happens to have New Year's too, each one, I mean, it's just like in the US too, you have the California uh Hmongnu Year, Minnesota, but each city almost has their own new year, so and me, I wasn't living with Hmong people, I was living by myself, so I didn't get a chance to go to any Hmongnu Year. Okay. So I don't know how big the Hmong community in France is.
SPEAKER_01Okay. And how many siblings do you have then?
SPEAKER_00I have five. So I'm the last one.
SPEAKER_01You were born in France, but were the others born in France?
SPEAKER_00So one only the oldest was born in a refugee camp.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00And five the the five of us in uh in France.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So how do you acclimate?
SPEAKER_00In France?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, was did you ever feel othered? When we came here, I was not born here. I was born in Laos, and we had 10 days. I was born 10 days, and then my family like had to leave our village. So I don't remember any of it, but like Minnesota's all I've known, and I don't know what that's like for you in France.
SPEAKER_00So now I mean I'm thinking about your question. So I've spent 23 years of my life in France. Okay. Uh 13 in the French Guiana, so like more like 13 in South America, and then 12 in uh France, in Europe, uh, the rest are here in the US. So France for me is home. My my home too, I mean, today is uh in Minnesota, but as of right now, in my stage of life, uh France is home. And as a kid, it did not feel like home because I'm the last one of a family of five. So my siblings that were older than me. Uh going to elementary school, everybody went to high school already. So I didn't have any siblings with me. And we had we had like a very small community, or just even Asian people in the school. So I don't know if uh you can imagine the racism of uh that I was uh uh facing. So yeah, they never make me feel like I belong there. Yeah, even if you I was born there, you know. I mean, I was a French citizen. But yeah, that was uh that was very hard. And uh I never understood why, you know, kids. I mean, yeah, I I mean I know now kids they're not very kind. I mean, because they don't know any better. Uh you can't really blame them, but yeah, I just felt so sad. I was like, why is the world so so cruel? But obviously now, more older experience in life. I mean, I totally understand uh why everything led to that. And uh now France is uh truly uh yes, my my home.
SPEAKER_01Was it lonely for you then growing up?
SPEAKER_00It was very lonely. Okay. It was very lonely because uh I I was very close to uh one of my older brothers, but eventually in my in my village in in French Guiana, so that was in French Guiana, uh, there was only the closest school was elementary school. So when people had to go to middle school or high school, they had to go two hours away from the my village.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00So they had to live like in uh in an apartment by themselves, so they had to know to to cook, how to be independent very, very soon, very early in age. So uh I just grew up by myself with my two parents that were never home because they had to farm to make sure to be able to make money to pay for my siblings, everybody, I mean, including myself too. So yeah, I felt very lonely.
SPEAKER_01Okay. What did they farm?
SPEAKER_00Uh they do fruits.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00So a lot of Hmong people, I mean, mainly Hmong people in French Ghana, they are farmers. Uh like my family, they mainly focus on fruits. Some families they only focus on a vegetable, okay, and then some do a mix of uh everything, including grains, uh, herbs. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because that's what's sold at the markets?
SPEAKER_00Yes, that's what, yeah. And every weekend, all the Hmong people, I mean, there is like a big farmers' market and it's only Hmong people. And uh yeah, we're I'm very proud because uh at the time the people living in French Vienna did not want the Hmong people to come uh stay with them. So they pushed us into the jungle. Because the main cities are on the coast.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but now the if you go to French Vienna, or if you look on the map, yeah, all the Hmong villages they are more deeper into the jungle because they didn't want us.
SPEAKER_01So raise the time again.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and uh luckily Hmong people, I mean, we we know how to use our hand, you know. Like uh we live in the jungle, live back in Laos of Thailand, so they were able to uh to build villages, to uh to farm, and uh today uh Hmong people are responsible to 90 plus percent of uh the whole agriculture uh in uh in French Guiana. So only 10% of the fruit vegetables are being imported from Europe, from France, but 90% is being produced by Hmong people.
SPEAKER_01Because they were like we're gonna be able to do that.
SPEAKER_00Because now yeah, yeah. Yeah, now we're just so efficient. We know how to work, we know like with uh the technology, you know, the machines and stuff. Uh so Hmong people are doing uh very well. I mean it's it's a hard, hard, hard uh work, but uh Hmong people uh we're we're we're very good at that.
SPEAKER_01Sure. I think it's so interesting how stuff like that changes the shape of a culture, you know, because obviously the agriculture portion of that land shifted because of this.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But also it was because of racism that pushed them into that that they were like, we're gonna be stewards of this land in a different way then.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And you know it's uh funny, I love to sometimes when I have some free time to watch uh some YouTube video about the Mong people in French Ghana. I mean, me, I left very early. I left uh when I was uh 14 years old to France, to the mainland, and all I rem remember from French Guiana was uh racism.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00Like, oh yeah, I mean, I grew up there, you know, my my parents' house uh is uh in French Guiana, and uh I would love to go visit, but I was like, I don't have like that nice of a memories. But when I look at those videos on YouTube, I see Hmong people, they're like, oh, we're so proud to be in French, we call it Guyanais. So Guyanais is like the people that live in French Guyana. Okay. And they're like, no, we're not French, we're like Guyanais. So yeah, it's uh how kind of like the mindset, the mentality uh shifted a little bit. And I'm like, oh wow, so it must have changed. Because yeah, I left when I was uh 14. I lived in France for uh high school and then uh college and then I came to the US, so yeah, uh things have changed a lot. I haven't got a chance to go back. Okay, yeah, so it's been like yeah, wow, 20 years.
SPEAKER_01You talk about or I've read that you went to study medicine, is that correct?
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01So tell me about that. How did that happen?
SPEAKER_00So in France, you can go to medical school right, or you apply to medical school right after high school. Okay, so anybody can apply to medical school. But the first year you take a test, and it's a very difficult test. They only take usually less than 10% of the student. So in my university in Limoges, it was at the time, I think 1,200 students for only 118 seats to be in the school.
SPEAKER_01That's a small percentage, yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's a small percentage, yes. And uh so the first year is pretty much they just give you so much to learn, they want you to absorb information. So it's literally as telling Gar Song, my wife, that they give you like a worth of a dictionary, like four or five uh books of uh like can be a biology or anything, and uh every week you have a test, and the test is not like multiple choice answer. You have a question and you have to write a sentence. And if you have the uh word wrong, I mean you don't get the full point either. Oh so that's why I'm saying it's harder in that sense. And yeah, it's very competitive, you know. I mean, everybody wants to be a doctor, but they they don't they don't imagine how how much work uh to put into it, especially at such a young age. Yeah. Because you're 18. Uh you just got off a high school and to have the maturity to, you know, not party too much, just stay at home, just study. Uh it's very hard, it's very difficult when you have that many temptations.
SPEAKER_01Have you always had that drive in you?
SPEAKER_00I had a drive to make my parents happy.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00I didn't care what I would do. Whatever they wanted, I wanted to make them happy.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was almost like, you know, I mean, like old parents, they want you to marry uh a mong, uh wife or husband. Yeah, they want you to become a doctor or to have a PhD in any field. Uh so I was like, okay, whatever you guys want, uh, pretty much. Because I was kind of like, yes, I saw my dad uh being robbed so many times in French China as a kid, it's very traumatizing. Uh I know about our history as Hong people, not just Hong in the US or in France. I mean, our whole story uh uh with the Vietnam, the secret war. So I was like, you know, we the sacrifices so much for us to have a better life, and I felt like the least I could do was just to make them happy. And I felt like to make them happy is to do what they want or what they think is best for me.
SPEAKER_01And you never felt resentment?
SPEAKER_00Uh just uh a little bit. Okay. Just a little bit.
SPEAKER_01I I mean, kudos to you. I felt a lot of resentment because uh being among women, you're just there's so much put on you. I was always resentful, and now I think back and I'm like, okay, that's okay to feel that, but it's also you have to look back and appreciate.
SPEAKER_00Yes, right. And uh yeah, and I I do a lot of uh therapy. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's good.
SPEAKER_00That's something that I feel like as Hong people we don't believe in, you know, mental health.
SPEAKER_01It's you shove it down, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And uh no, that helped me a lot. No, yeah, because uh I felt like my dad was trying to redo his life through me, or at least through any of my siblings, because uh, I mean, yeah, I have some siblings right now that have a lot of resentment, especially the the girls, just like we're saying. Uh I mean I can't say I understand exactly how you feel because I'm not a Hmong woman, I'm a Hmong man and I'm the last one, so you know it's very different. Uh but therapy helped me a lot to to I get I don't know if forgive is the right term but to uh to understand why they they wanted me, yeah, to to do this and uh not not just about my family, but about about life in general, about every everything, yeah, how to see how to see life. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So you passed the doctor?
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes. I passed, and that's what led me to the US because it was a deal with my dad. If I make it, okay uh and at the time my grandma, so my dad's mom, my my pop, uh, was living here uh with my uh uncle. So I was like, yeah, I if I pass, you know, if I get to medical school, you get me a flight ticket, I go spend my vacation uh in the US. And he was okay, deal.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, that was uh what stride me. I uh I was kind of like that in uh when I was a kid, like you had to throw me a carrot, you know, to be able to do something. And that's uh what led me to the US here in 2012.
SPEAKER_01And then what did you do while you were in the US then?
SPEAKER_00So when I came, uh I was spending just the time with uh my uncle. I mean, they didn't have too much time for me because they were working. And I had some cousins uh about the same age uh as me. So I came here in August and then September, everybody went back to school to work. So I was just uh home with uh uh younger cousin uh that was two or three years old, and I was just getting very bold.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, pretty much, yes.
SPEAKER_00And uh one day my cousin that was my age, uh that was working, uh, reached out to me and said, Oh hey, uh uh next weekend uh I'll take you out and uh to to meet uh a young girl that goes uh to the U of M. She's a student, she lives with a roommate.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00Uh and I think uh yeah it would be uh fun for you to to meet people your age and uh to party to see how how we party here in the US. And I was like, yeah, I mean.
SPEAKER_01You hadn't gone to parties in France at that time?
SPEAKER_00No, a lot. A lot, but it's way different.
SPEAKER_01What's different about it?
SPEAKER_00So at the time, uh so oh my god, I felt like I'm so old every time I say at the time, at the time. Uh it was uh when the DJ uh were very popular, like uh David Gera uh uh kind of stuff, you know, with uh uh Will I am when they had the black eyepiece and uh David Gera, like the I Got a Feeling, you know, music. So they started to do in France we call it clubhouse uh style music. So yeah, it was like that. Here it's more like hip-hop, uh rap music in the club. So yeah, it's very different, and people don't dress the same, uh, people don't uh drink the same. I mean, here it's a very uh hard liquor. Yes, yeah. In France when you go to the club, you get champagne, exactly. You don't have money, you're a student, but you want a flash, you know, to impress people. Okay, and you put all your uh weekly money into a bottle and it's champagne. Here in the US, it's like you have liquor and you do shots, right? Okay. And I always tell in all my interviews or to people as a kid, I was so fascinated by the movie uh American Pie.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00The way you know they parley the culture, you know, yeah, they the parents who let you go with your friend, uh rent a house to party, and I was like, oh my god, like that's uh that sounds amazing. And so I always wanted to experience something like that.
SPEAKER_01And was it what you expected it to be?
SPEAKER_00Pretty much, yes. Because I had a cousin too that was going to the U of M, and uh yeah, he would take me out to those uh he had a lot of friends to those uh uh Fred House.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_00Uh and I was oh my god, just like in the movies, in the series. Uh and uh no, it was really like uh like a dream, and I was like, oh wow, America is so so fun, so so great. And people are very open-minded, they are not shy. French people were very shy. Like uh, if you interviewed me uh 10 years ago, it would have not gone that smooth.
SPEAKER_01You would have been like, I don't want to talk.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, French people were just so shy, like to the point that like me when I had a presentation to do at school, I would call in. I'd be like, oh, I'm sick. And I I'd rather take uh like an F than uh uh showing up and felt stupid.
SPEAKER_01Is it humility or is it anxiety that it's anxiety?
SPEAKER_00We think too much about what people think of you.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01I think it's so interesting how cultures are so different in that too.
SPEAKER_00Americans are brash, it's like I'm confident I can walk into a room and you dress how you want, you talk how you want, you know, you eat what you want, you you don't care. That's who you are, and uh yeah, that's it.
SPEAKER_01So you met Gelsong Gelsong? Yes, and uh did you go back to France then?
SPEAKER_00No, so it was uh really love of sight. Okay, you know we met, uh we went on a date the same night, and uh we pretty much got engaged uh two weeks after. Oh wow, yes, yes, and uh I was saying I like to joke that yeah, I had some visa issue, but now that that's just a joke. No, we you know, we were very young, she was 19, I was 23. Yes, but we just knew the both of us, we just knew that I mean we were talking for a little bit only, but we saw life the same way. Okay, you know, at that time most kids they they think about partying, you know, they they want to experience life, and which is fine, you know, but for us, we wanted to build something.
SPEAKER_04Sure.
SPEAKER_00We wanted to build something. We already always had that vision to have like uh like a legacy for for our family, for to leave something behind. And as soon as yeah, we we we were talking, we're like, oh my god, that's the the the woman that I need uh in my life in my life, and how even the the way you know, I mean, more people is so important to uh to know oh how how do you see yourself uh having like in-laws, you know, how do you treat them, you know, and things like that. Uh the culture is very important for the both of us. And I was like, Yeah, I cannot pass on that because uh yeah, if I don't know if I'm gonna meet uh someone like that again.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, and it's it's so interesting too because I think like even in life in general, you will meet a lot of friends. You can meet a lot of people that you can be friendly with, cordial with, but there's only a certain core amount of people that you're gonna connect with on a really, really deep level, you know. And when you find those people, to me, it's important to grab hold of them and be like, I want to invest in you, I want you to be part of my life.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_01Was the intention for you to go back to France ever? Yes. Oh it was. Oh, yeah, exactly. So what happened then?
SPEAKER_00Outside of the US, yeah, you are raised thinking about America, that America is the the pinnacle? The pinnacle, I mean the work culture, I mean everything.
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_00Especially as a Hmong person. I mean, I'm not I'm not gonna lie, like uh all parents are like, oh my god, yeah, like my dad even almost sometimes at a time regret not coming to the US.
SPEAKER_04Sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because in France, I mean, life is uh way harder, you know, there's a way more discrimination. Uh but obviously today now he's so happy that he did not come to the US.
SPEAKER_04Sure.
SPEAKER_00But they were always like, oh yeah, if you have the opportunity to go over there and find a wife and get married, yeah, you should do that. And really, it wasn't my intention. I mean, I was always open to meet the love of my life. Sure. Hmong or not.
SPEAKER_04Sure.
SPEAKER_00I mean, in France, in the US, or anywhere I would go on vacation. Uh, but it happened to be in the US, it happened to be a Hmong person. Uh, so he pretty much uh checked all the bugs for my dad. Sure. So when I called him, I actually when I told him that, oh, I met someone and I want to marry her, he actually hold back a little bit. He was like, Are you sure? Okay, because maybe he saw that, oh my god, it's getting real, I don't want to lose my baby, maybe.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Not that they were trying to talk me out, but they were like, okay, you have to make sure that she's the one, you know.
SPEAKER_01Don't don't 23 is young though. It's very young.
SPEAKER_00And oh my god, if someone that's 23 and 19 come to me and tell me they want to get married, I would tell them no. Yeah, no, don't do it.
SPEAKER_04You're not ready.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, even though we're both from home, I mean she was born and raised in the US. I was born and raised in France. We have two different cultures, personality, and uh it's just like, yeah, I always tell people just put two different people like that in one room for a part of time. At some point it's gonna collapse. And uh no, I mean it's uh I mean just like any relationship, you know, you have to work for it, you have to uh uh make uh sacrifices, you have to compromise and uh learning about life together.
SPEAKER_01So tell me about the shift between being a doctor to being a pastry chef.
SPEAKER_00So most people would think because the same thing, doctors are seen as a pinnacle of uh the profession, and and uh a chef, not necessarily just a pastry chef, a chef is just like an entry-level job for most uh person.
SPEAKER_01I didn't realize that.
SPEAKER_00Or at least that's what I was seeing as a kid. Because uh in France, most people that go into those fields, like uh to become a chef, um mechanic, a butcher, are the kids that are not good enough to pursue into the traditional uh high school and then to go to university.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00To get like a degree, like a four year degree or a master degree. And uh these kids are usually being pointing uh in the finger like, Oh yeah, they're they're so they're so dumb. Excuse my expression, but it's pretty much they're not educated. Yes. For me, I mean, I always wanted to do pastry, but I was ashamed. I didn't want people to point finger at me.
SPEAKER_01Why?
SPEAKER_00Because uh that that was that was just the culture at the time. So because you're like, I don't want to Yeah, I don't want I don't wanna I don't want to be put into uh that case that oh yeah I'm a failure because I only went into that field because I'm not good enough to go into a traditional high school and to go into college to get a degree. And I didn't want my family to fail uh to fail that. So that's why yeah, I was thinking like that at the time. But now, I mean obviously uh with social media, you know, and all those TV shows, I mean, the profession has uh shifted. Now for some chefs uh like almost like superstar level.
SPEAKER_01So you did study in France though.
SPEAKER_00For Pastry?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yes. Okay, so who did you study with?
SPEAKER_00So uh it was in 2018 I went to a school in Paris called Le Nôtre.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean obviously you have a lot of school. I did my research and uh this school uh stand out out of all of them. And I pretty much I did not even apply to anything else. It was that school only. Uh and I remember, I mean, yeah, I know that most kids here when they apply to college, they don't put all the eggs in the same basket. But that's who I am. I when I love something, I would just do like just go all for it, just like for a dish or food. If I love a dish, I would eat that every day until I'm sick of it.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_00I guess I got lucky because uh I got accepted. I mean, I did have a call uh for an interview, I had to submit an application, and uh uh yeah, it was just a dream come true. I truly felt like uh, you know, a bird in a cage, and all of a sudden you just open the door and uh the bird can just like expand its wing. Truly, that's really how it felt. I could not wait to go to school every day uh to learn. I was that unknowing student, you know, that asked so many questions. Sir because uh I was just because I knew exactly what I was gonna do too. I knew that when I was gonna come back to the US, I would be starting my own business.
SPEAKER_01So this was in between meeting Gaussong?
SPEAKER_00No, that was after.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay. Yes, so you went back to France?
SPEAKER_00Yes. So we I came in the US in 2012. I met Gaussong, we got married, and uh in 2016, so she was in uh at a U of M at the time, uh in 2012, and uh so she was a full-time student, so uh I had to uh do some uh entry-level job to be able to pay for uh everyday uh life expense.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00As soon as she was done with her bachelor, she told me that yeah, you uh now it's your turn. I mean, you you've worked uh while I was in school, so now it's my turn to work, and you you you choose what you want to do.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00Actually, at the time I did not think about patriotary school. I was like, well, I was already in medical school. Sure. So let me just pursue that thing, make my parents uh proud, and my in-laws too. And they were very happy when I told them, Oh, I'm gonna go to uh to medical school, both uh parents, my in-laws and my parents. Uh but eventually, so in in America, you cannot transfer any credit from outside of the country. So you have to start over.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00So I had to, yeah, I had to go and uh take my GD, I had to take my ACT. And uh yeah, English is not my first language, and uh, it was uh it was stressful, but luckily there's a lot of most of uh the exam are multiple choice. So uh that that helped me a lot.
SPEAKER_01We dumb it down.
SPEAKER_00And uh yeah, I applied to uh I think it was Sanctuary or the and the U of M. Yeah because uh eventually, yeah, the plan was to go to the medical school at the U of M.
SPEAKER_04Sure.
SPEAKER_00Uh so I think I got in, and the day before starting school, I was just laying in bed and uh yeah, I couldn't go to sleep, and I was just staring at the ceiling, and Gar Songis told me like, like, what's going on? Like you're gonna start a new journey, and I was like, I don't want to be a doctor, I want to be a pastry chef. And uh, she's actually the one that like pushed me and uh made me believe in myself to uh to go to pastry school to say that hey, everything's gonna be okay. You know, you truly should do what you're passionate about, what you love, because yeah, there's nothing worse than doing something or to live a life that that's not yours.
SPEAKER_01So that was the turning point though.
SPEAKER_00Yes, that was a 20 uh 16, 17-ish. And uh I started looking for a pastry school in the US because I didn't want to be away from her for too long. Because in France, a traditional pastry school is two years.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00So I found a school in Chicago at the time. Uh it was called the French Pistry School. It was a two well-known French chefs uh that founded the school. So I thought uh if I would go over there, uh I'll still be in the US and have still a solid uh French uh pastry foundation with those two French chefs. But Gasson convinced me to go to Paris, but luckily she just wanted to live in Paris.
SPEAKER_01Is it better schooling there for this kind of industry?
SPEAKER_00For me, it it was uh easier because I speak French.
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_00And uh I was so so so not even hungry, so starving for for the knowledge of it. Okay. Because it's something I always wanted to do since my youngest age and I had the opportunity to do it. So I felt like it would have been the same, maybe, uh in Chicago, because the two chefs were also French. Got it. And maybe the fact that you know I'm also French, you kind of create that connection. And uh when they see, just like me today, when I see that one of my staff is so passionate, so into into the craft, you know. I mean, I don't play favorite, but obviously if they ask me for things, you know, I mean, I'll be more than uh happy to share even more with them. Yeah. So to answer your question, I don't think uh there is better school, sure, but it's French pastry, so you kind of want to be in in the environment. Uh so yeah, Paris was uh I guess natural uh at the time.
SPEAKER_01Sure. Is there a difference between like if you go to New York for pizza, the dough there's different. Is there a difference between like American butter and French butter? There is.
SPEAKER_00Is it because of the cow that's it's because of the cow, yeah, because it's different species of cow, it's different uh type of uh grass that they're eating, you know, the the weather. I don't want to say that French butter is better, it's not about that, it's just the taste. If you come to me, uh if I tell you that I'm making a French croissant, I want to use a French ingredient at the most, or at least what makes the real difference into a croissant, which is for me the butter.
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the flour, I use uh American flour, but there's nothing wrong with you imported in the butter and not myself, uh yeah, it's uh it's imported by suppliers, yes. Yeah, we have suppliers here, yeah. So uh but there's nothing wrong using uh American butter. I mean, you can have the same uh uh fat content into an American butter, but the taste would just be different.
SPEAKER_01Got it, okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01What was the hardest thing that you had to learn in pastry school?
SPEAKER_00The hardest thing I had to learn is to be patient. I am not a patient person.
SPEAKER_01What do you need patience for?
SPEAKER_00Patience uh for like letting a dough rest. For example, it's a three-day process to make a croissant.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00So day one, you're mixing the dough. And you have to let it rest. You cannot work it right away.
SPEAKER_01What do you okay talk me through a process the process?
SPEAKER_00The process, so yeah, you're mixing all the ingredients for the dough, okay? Uh and then that dough has to sit to relax because uh when you're mixing in in the flour, you have a molecules that are called gluten.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00So when when you're mixing, so they are agitated. Okay.
SPEAKER_01So they are So it's butter, water, flour?
SPEAKER_00It's a flour, butter, uh some use flour, some use milk. I use milk to have uh a more uh fally uh taste to it. Honey, uh sugar, salt, and uh yeast, obviously. Okay. So you just mix everything together and then you let it rest for at least uh 12 to 18 or even 24 hours. That's a long time, and you cannot you cannot uh work with it. And then the next day, that's when you put in the French butter into it, and then you start doing all the folding to have the layers.
SPEAKER_01And then if you're folding too much, does that affect it too?
SPEAKER_00Yes, because every time you do a folding, you're agitating those molecules of gluten, and you can only fold so many times.
SPEAKER_01Then it becomes tough?
SPEAKER_00It becomes tough. Okay, and then you have to, again, same thing, you have to let it rest so it becomes like a little bit more flexible. And then the third day, that's when you're shaping it your uh croissant, so the triangle or if it's a chocolate croissant or a rectangle. I'm someone when I first started, I was like, oh my god, like I can't wait. So let's let's just try it. And because at first I thought that, oh, they probably just want to make it like something like mystical, uh, oh yeah, it's a three-day process, it really you have to respect that. I was like, no, I'm gonna try to prove them that it's only a one-day, but and did you well, how did it turn out then? Very bad, very, very bad. And the dough becomes so so uh hard.
SPEAKER_01They just let you do it though, they're like, try it then. Yeah, they they're like, okay.
SPEAKER_00And also I would do it at home too. Because sometimes we wouldn't have time at school to do uh our own stuff or or my own experimentation, so I had to do it myself at home.
SPEAKER_01I don't know if analogy or metaphor is the right word. Maybe it's like a a metaphor for life where it's like now's the time to work on it, now's the time to let it rest.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, yeah, really.
SPEAKER_01So patience was something that you had to learn.
SPEAKER_00Um and not just in patience, yeah, like even in life. I mean, you see, I I proposed to my wife uh after two weeks.
SPEAKER_04You're like, let's let's register.
SPEAKER_00And I want uh I I want something. I mean, one time I wanted uh mini donuts, you know, and uh I was like, oh my god, where can I find mini donuts? I want it right now, and I had to drive all the way to Modern America to nickel down to get just a small mini donuts. Did you find it? Yes. Okay, yeah, I'm someone when I want something, uh I need to get it right away.
SPEAKER_01Okay. How has that changed over the years for you?
SPEAKER_00Uh sometimes uh it did me good, sometimes it did me bad.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00So uh yeah, I mean obviously now I try to really uh prioritize and uh with uh experience and uh being a little bit more mature, uh not to uh just follow my my need or fell for it.
SPEAKER_01So I read your social media posts and uh you talk a lot about your backstory in those posts and how you integrate your culture into the food. Can you share with me how you do that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so for some people it might be a little bit difficult to see, oh, how how do you share your culture into it? Because I mean, when I say some people like some other Hmong person, because me, I mean, I am Hmong. You know, I am Hmong first before being a French citizen and a US citizen because I have dual citizenship now. But obviously I was born and raised in France and uh I have that multi-uh culture of uh being Hmong and uh the French culture when I was uh in there, and now I'm slowly learning about the uh American culture, such as uh Thanksgiving, you know, and all those uh federal holidays. I felt like it's just normal. I grew up, you know, every day my dad would go to uh uh the bakery to get uh a baguette, croissant. At home, my mom would still be very Hmong, she would have like the leftover from uh the dinner. Yeah, I had a choice between uh yeah, some like the French culture, like the baguette and things, or my own culture of Hmong food. So how I integrate all of this, yeah, it's uh you you don't have like a set path to be like a pastry chef or to be to be anything, you know. Everybody has a different path, uh, our own story. And uh it's about sharing it.
SPEAKER_01Did your family eat pork and vegetables and rice and all that too? Or obviously you don't involve any of that into your current pastries right now?
SPEAKER_00No, I don't have I don't I don't use any of that in uh my country but in my monk flavors? Yes, as as of right now, yeah. So we have um a loom uh like dessert that we're uh we're launching. Okay. And uh, I'm trying to uh slowly uh incorporate ingredients. I mean that's I feel like is the easiest for people to understand or like a technique or even mhong souvenir for myself because uh my parents are farmers.
SPEAKER_04Sure.
SPEAKER_00I remember as a kid I hated it eating fruits. I mean, the kid you want is candy. Yeah, right. My dad has always been very healthy, so he might have not gone to college or anything like that, but he was very focused into uh like eating healthy. And uh just to uh bounce back to what you said, if we had like pork or veggies at home, we would never eat anything deep fried. We would not have soy sauce at home. There was no oyster sauce at home. Okay. No black pepper. Yes, that too. Uh my dad has a stomach ulcer, so he's very sensitive.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_00So all my life it was uh boiled chicken, boiled, everything boiled. Yeah. And I was craving like deep fried. I mean, as a kid, I mean, just chicken wings, right? Uh deep-fried chicken wings and uh moderina. Yeah, uh, but me it was uh just boiled uh thing with uh boiled vegetable, boiled meat, and uh rice uh and salt, and it's so not flavorful. And uh to the point I was like, mom, do you know how to cook? She was like, yes, she'll get upset, yes, but your dad cannot eat that. So we have to we can't tempt him, you know. I cannot make a dish for him and uh for everybody else. Yeah, or he's gonna want to eat it, he's gonna get sick and blah blah blah. So we had to eat just like him. And uh and now, you know, I was like, oh my god, I was I'm actually very cautious about what I eat too, because of my dad. Because all my life he was like, don't eat this, it's not good for your health. So for him, it was just cut that off.
SPEAKER_01Is that comfort food to you now then?
SPEAKER_00Yes. Okay, yes, but uh still, even though uh I'm still very meticulous, and uh, you can ask our song when I eat the pork belly, I only eat uh the rain chi. I leave like all the fat, like the white part. Yeah, and the chicken wings, same thing. I mean, all the meat, even the steak. Yeah, uh, I don't eat the fat part. I have maybe I have my dad in my hand and it's like, don't eat that, don't eat that.
SPEAKER_01So you guys were on uh Western and university for a long time, man?
SPEAKER_00Yes, for three years.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Do you feel that you just outgrew that space?
SPEAKER_00No, so the Western location, we had planned to purchase the building.
SPEAKER_03Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so the goal was uh always to stay in that location. So we actually were in capacity to uh purchase the building, but during the the negotiation, I mean it did not end up in our favor. So uh we had to find a new home.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, that's the that's the only reason why we we had to move out of that front town location.
SPEAKER_01We talk about place a lot. We talk about making new homes or calling a place home, but like why St. Paul?
SPEAKER_00Why St. Paul?
SPEAKER_01You mean for the business or for or just even settling yeah for the business?
SPEAKER_00Yes, I mean uh St. Paul is uh my first address here in the US. So when we got married, uh so my in-laws, they are those these monk people that own uh properties and uh rent them, and uh they were kind enough to let us uh uh live in one of their houses, and it was actually uh in Fractown.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, my first address was in 2013 when we got married, and then yes, it was uh on Dale, exactly, Dale and uh university. So I felt like it was natural uh after seven years uh of her going to school, you going to school in New York as well, uh, me uh going back to France to learn my craft and uh uh to start when it was time to start a business. I was like, it's gotta be St. Paul and uh it's gotta be Frogtown. Most people were coming to us after and they were like, oh my god, you guys do French pastries, you guys should not be in Flocktown, you guys should be in a suburb, you guys should be in Waisada, where you have the rich people or what did you say to that? I was like, no, I mean uh I love Frogtown. I mean, Flocktown is my first address, and I felt like it was natural to start uh my business. And uh yeah, we did right because uh most people were telling that it was a terrible mistake, you know, that never nobody will come because it's a Frogtown. Uh but no, we were so fortunate that the community, you know, was so supportive and uh people even from outside of uh uh Flocktown was coming uh to support us.
SPEAKER_01I think where Western and University was too, it's such a rich food um space.
SPEAKER_00Yes, there's so many different uh restaurants with different uh uh type of cuisine, you know, and uh I was uh very proud to uh to add my touch to it, you know, uh and to be part of it.
SPEAKER_01Sure. Tell me about your menu then. So from let's say when you first opened up your first shop to what it is now, how has the what you create evolved, or do you still keep the same things? How do you gauge that?
SPEAKER_00So from the first shop to the second, uh the main difference is we did not have sitting.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the first shop, I mean, because we didn't know every time we don't know how it's gonna turn out. And uh it's not like we don't want to take risk, but uh we didn't want to open to have like a big cafe with uh because also we never had experience of running uh a coffee shop uh with sittings, you know, with servers. So we always wanted to do things slowly. But also uh problem that we encounter a lot, which most people say is a good problem, is that yeah, we have a big demand. Uh so we're very fortunate and uh we have to grow and we have to learn very quickly. So the Western location did not have seen, it was just a small like uh pickup uh counter, and uh we slowly implemented coffee because people in America, yeah, you need to have coffee everywhere. Uh the reason why we wanted to buy the building is to really make uh this place uh our home and to fully open it. But it did not work out in the location, so we found our new home in uh Cathedral Hill uh on the other side of the highway. And then so that's where we decided to have seen. So it's a small space, it's not as big as uh maybe some people wish uh that it was, but no, it's uh I like a small, cozy place, so it makes uh you know people uh uh feel like very like a community, yeah. No, when they come.
SPEAKER_01Has the menu evolved?
SPEAKER_00The menu evolved uh in in some ways. So at the time, yeah, I would not do incorporate too many of a mong uh flavor ingredients such as uh like the rice, uh like uh the taudu, uh like uh we have right now, and then I have a new one coming uh this uh month too. So yeah, we're trying to we're trying new things. I mean, obviously social media is a big trend, you know, for people, but I want to stay true to myself, to my French uh technique, uh to my roots as a home person. So trying to, I mean, yeah, it's not just about throwing uh random ingredient and uh into a cake and uh call it a day. It has to make sure that uh everything is uh goes well together. Okay. It can be texture, flavor.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I have a friend who has a flower shop too, and she does weddings, and I was chatting with her the other day and she's like, I don't want to seem like a control freak. But I'm like, well, I don't know if that's the right word to say it, but it's quality control. You have a standard that you're like, it has to meet this. Do you feel you have that?
SPEAKER_00Yes, and uh, especially my wife. When I do something and I think it's great, and she comes and she's like, No, that's not good. That's it takes uh yeah, a big toe on my uh confidence, on my like, oh my god, I thought it was amazing. And uh she's like, no, it's not good enough. I was like, oh wow, I don't know how much better I can do it, but actually, yeah, it comes up even better.
SPEAKER_01How do you go back though? Do you kind of backtrack to be like I should change this? How do you experiment?
SPEAKER_00So when I do experimentation, obviously I'm the head chef.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_00So in some ways I have the last word, but that's not how our company is uh run. We like to think as a team. Like my wife always said, two heads is better than one.
SPEAKER_04Sure.
SPEAKER_00Uh so every time when we do something, I mean, even though uh I'm the head chef, I'm the one that went to school for it, uh I always ask for, you know, people's opinion. Uh and even the people that don't necessarily necessarily work in the kitchen, like the people in my admin team or in the shop. So uh I feel like that's uh one of the biggest strengths in uh in our company. Yeah. So yeah, when something doesn't go well, I mean, yeah, it's I go back to the drawing board where asking them to uh uh throw everything out at me. But I was like, yeah, I think uh this uh will go well. What do you think? And uh yeah, we are congressing, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Tell me about is it Edina that you guys just opened up another shop?
SPEAKER_00It's uh Linden Hill.
SPEAKER_01Linden Hills.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it's a pop-up.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00So pop-up.
SPEAKER_01Oh, so it's not permanent then. No, it's not permanent.
SPEAKER_00No, it will be uh uh until the end of uh this month, December 31st of 2025.
SPEAKER_01Just to see, just to have more accessibility for other people?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so the we always wanted to also be in Minneapolis. Okay. We just had the opportunity that spot was uh available, even if it's for a short term, and uh it actually works out for us. Uh and uh yeah, we wanted to do uh a Christmas uh pop-up, and uh in some ways uh it's a good way for us to test the market to see if uh people want us there. Yeah, uh, and what's that been like? Uh it's been amazing. I mean, yeah, again, I've I'm very grateful for that much love and support, you know. And yeah, I feel like it's something that can only happen in Minnesota.
SPEAKER_01Sir, can I backtrack a little bit back to when you first met Kao Song? You said you met somebody and you had were on pretty much the same wavelength, and you want to build a legacy with them. What was that legacy?
SPEAKER_00So, legacy, what I meant by legacy, uh like my dad, I remember as a kid, they were like, because they always wanted to get more land. And I was like, why do you guys want to get more land? You can't even work on all of them at the same time. And uh they were like, Oh, you know, it's uh when the day, you know, you me and uh your mom were not here anymore. I mean, we can leave you guys something. And uh you guys hopefully can be proud of uh of us. Like, oh, we like our parents, they they worked very hard and they were able to acquire, you know, this and that and leave us uh something. So when I talk about legacy, yeah, it's something more like that, like for our children. But obviously, if it can go beyond our own family, you know, if it can uh inspire people or even be a little help or push for our community, you know, that's uh that's a that's a bonus.
SPEAKER_01Do you feel 23-year-old Mark would be proud of you today?
SPEAKER_00Oh my god, you're gonna make me cry. I would never imagine that I would be in this uh position today, meaning that people are so kind to us, they love what we do. They always tell us that we're a big part of the community, that we have a reason why people come to St. Paul. Yeah. And that means so much to us. Every day, I told you earlier when you asked me how what's my daily uh uh life, I'm like, every day I'm in the kitchen. So I don't get to spend too much time to read what people say, I mean, good or bad, you know, on the social media or in your newspaper. But when it's time, you know, sometimes when we go places and uh I guess people recognize uh my bold head and they're like, oh hey, it's Matthew. And they're like, oh my god, we love what you do. Oh, you guys are so amazing, fantastic. And sometimes I'm like, for what? I mean, I'm just making cake. Yeah. No, you're doing more than that, you know. You're putting my little touch uh yeah among people on a map, you know, to show that we can do more than just uh we can expand to go into a different field that just uh the science or medical field anything like that and especially uh you're doing something uh like French you know it's not uh uh mong uh not that it's harder or easier but it's uh yeah we're really proud of you and uh it's only at this when I I get that type of feedback that I actually realize that oh my god yes uh we we're having uh impact into a community in a in a good way and uh I'm very I'm very proud of that.
SPEAKER_01I guess you could say you're just like the Hmong who settled in French Guyana. You know they made their mark there in a different way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah now uh yeah it's uh uh slowly uh St. Paul I mean you know the the say uh home is where the artists yeah the heart is and uh yeah my heart is here.
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_00So yeah it's uh now yeah it's it's my home now.
SPEAKER_01So last question for you. What do you want people to see when they see you?
SPEAKER_00I want them to see maybe not a little boy because I don't look like it someone that had the courage to follow his passion and to put in the work and uh stay true to him himself uh to his value and uh yeah doing what he's love what what he loves uh with uh respect of uh others and that anything is possible as a kid and we didn't have money but we had a TV that was donated by a Catholic uh charity and I would see you know like uh TV shows with uh people with uh jewelries or nice uh sport car and uh I always told my dad I was like oh my god I want to be rich and famous and my dad you know that's the little me uh five years old in the jungle yeah and my dad was like son don't don't focus on on uh the end goal don't focus on the money on the fame just do the work you know before you know this will come but just work it doesn't matter what you do yeah just focus on the work work hard and don't focus on money of fame that will come and uh the first time that we opened the shop so it was uh a pop-up the Little Make Online Market in 2019 July the weekend of July 4 and I was yeah we're just uh grinding in the back and it started at 5 p.m but people were lining up at 2 p.m you know in front of uh our building and uh I was just telling Gaussong I was like oh my god what why people are coming so early it started at five and Gaussong is like they're here for you and that's when I thought about my dad uh Nijaluna you know he was like yeah just work hard and before you know things will come it's it's kind of like a message I always try to pass on uh uh young kids you know that want instant gratification like me I was like that I was like your impatience yeah yeah I was very impatient but now I learned how to work for it that you know it's good to have goals so you know what you work towards for but not to always do something and always uh uh look at it as like is it here yet? No so no just put your hand down just do the grind and before you know it will be here.
SPEAKER_01Thank you thanks for being here between two urns is hosted by me, Yua Vang. Technical support and editing is provided by Chris Coza. Our theme song Swaying Trees is written by Chris Coza. Between two urns is made possible by a grant from the Harlan Boss Foundation. For more information about Ramsey County Historical Society please visit www.rchs.com Thanks for listening