5. The Validation Pattern: From Censoring to Unmuting

Erin Snow spent years listening to people nobody else would hear.

Domestic violence survivors, in a legal aid office in New Hampshire. Clients who told her the same thing over and over: I'm telling my story, and nobody is listening. She recognized it. She had carried her own story since she was nine, surrounded by people who wanted her to be okay but didn't know how to help her get there. Later, a divorce she told almost no one about — more afraid of the reactions than the silence.

In this episode, Erin — founder of The Unmuted Room, a professional listening space that is not therapy and not coaching — names what she watches high performers do mid-sentence. The censoring, masking and careful management of every word, even in a room built for the opposite.

This is where validation dependency meets containment. When identity runs on being the capable one, you never get to release what you're holding. And what you can't put down backs up. We trace what that costs, what shifts in the body when someone finally says the thing, and why Erin believes spaces like hers should be as common as gyms.

GUEST INFO
Erin Snow — Founder, The Unmuted Room
Website: theunmutedroom.com
Instagram: @the.unmutedroom
Free 10-minute consultation available through her website.

CONNECT
Host: Andi Johnson — Instagram @advance_with_andi
Take the Validation Pattern Quiz — link in bio.

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hello everyone and welcome to today's episode of Boys and Board Rooms. Today we're going to talk a little bit about holding space. And I'm going to start by talking about high achievers, because most high achievers can list without thinking every room where they act as the steady one. This could be the room at work where everyone exhales when they walk in, or it could be the kitchen on a Sunday night when something has gone wrong and someone needs to figure it out and they're that someone. This could be the friend's living room when the marriage is ending. They are the person you call, or maybe you're the person that other people call because you or they are good at it. The capacity here is real. But here is what almost none of these people can name. They can't name a room where they get to be the one who needs the room where what they are carrying is allowed to come out of their body, where the work for once is not theirs to do. And that gap is not a personal failing. It's a structural one. Most of us, most high achievers, were built without that kind of room. And what does not get to come out somewhere quietly, it starts to back up everywhere. It can back up in the body, in your marriage, in the way you can't fall asleep at night, even though you're exhausted. So my guest today is Erin Snow. And what she did is she built a room exactly for that purpose. And we're going to talk about why it had to be built from scratch. Because Erin spent 17 years as a trauma-informed legal advocate walking alongside survivors of domestic violence, sexual assault, and stalking. And she became the first paralegal in New Hampshire who was permitted to represent clients directly in family court. In that work, she saw the same gap again and again. She saw a system that could move a case forward, but it could not give someone the space to just be heard. So she built one. The unmuted room is a private, confidential listening space for anyone who is caring more than they can say out loud. Erin, welcome. Hey Andy, I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me. So we're going to dive right in. We've got we've got some time to dig into the unmuted room today. I know that the listeners are really excited to hear about your mission, but I want you to take me back first to about 17 years before the unmuted room, right? What were you doing and what kept you doing it for so long? Gosh, 17 years.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Um now we got to go back far. So before I was doing the unmuted room, I was working in the legal field. I was a paralegal. I had just moved here to New Hampshire. Um I joined New Hampshire Legal Assistance, which is a legal aid law firm. Um, so I was doing domestic violence work on behalf of low-income victims and survivors. So divorce, parenting, protective order cases. And I was doing that work and kind of worked my way up. I ended up directing the project. Um, I became the first paralegal in the state to represent my own clients in court. So that's what I was doing. And but most of my job was listening. It was listening to my clients, understanding where they were coming from, listening to them when nobody else would hear them. And so that's what brought me to this work and creating this space, the unmuted room. And I just, yeah, I came up with this idea. I I was never thinking, I was not thinking I would ever be an entrepreneur. Um, I married one, so maybe that's where it came from. But uh yeah, I was just like, okay, I'm gonna start this business. There is a gap, there is a need. I personally felt it. I knew my clients were feeling it. And so yeah, I started this professional listening business. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

So I have to think that across all those years and clients, there may have been some patterns that were emerging. So, what was the moment or the pattern that you could not unsee that led you to create the unmuted room?

SPEAKER_00 3:53

Yes, lots of patterns. People telling me, clients telling me, Erin, nobody's hearing me, I'm telling my story and nobody's listening to me. And that really resonated with me going back to when I was nine. I was sexually assaulted by my friend's father when I was nine years old, around nine years old. And having to hold on to that for such a long period of time, growing up in a time when people didn't really know how to handle those situations and, you know, people wanting to make sure that I was okay and but not knowing how to help me be okay. And so I held on to that for such a long time and then seeing that with my clients, and then going through a divorce, I didn't tell my friends that I was getting a divorce. I didn't talk to my family about it, I didn't talk to my friends about it. I was afraid I was gonna get judged. I was afraid that they were gonna give me advice that I didn't want, that they were gonna say, What are you thinking, Aaron? And I was like, this just really sucks, like not having a place where I could talk about these things without worrying about somebody else's reaction. So I was, I'm remarried, I was sitting on the beach with my husband, and I said, you know what? I think I'm gonna just start this business where I listen to people. I needed this, I wanted this, I was looking for this, and it wasn't therapy, it wasn't coaching, it was just a safe space to say all of those things that we don't get to say, especially as women, that we feel like we can't say. And so, yeah, I came up with the idea in June of 2024 and I left my job in July and opened in August of 2024.

SPEAKER_02 5:32

I mean, there are so many times in my life, I agree with you, that I wish I had had that space. I wish, you know, I had been, had had a place to go because it nothing felt safe, right? It doesn't feel emotionally safe. And it doesn't feel emotionally safe, like you said, for a variety of reasons. A lot of them that we don't realize that we're putting on ourselves, expectations that we put on ourselves. So maybe is there something that, you know, your clients come to you originally because they want a safe space, because they have nowhere else to turn to. But is there something they never really say out loud that you figured out that you can hear in what they're saying? It's the censoring.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

I see, I hear my clients in the appointments, especially in the initial sessions when they're like, hey, this idea sounded really cool. I wasn't sure what it was, but I wanted to try it. And they're talking to me, and they're talking to me about um, you know, caring for their elderly parents. They're talking to me about how frustrated they are with their kids. Maybe they're empty nesters and they're like try rediscovering their identity, or they're executives in these high stress jobs that are like, I have nowhere to put this down. And then they stop themselves. They're talking to me and then they stop themselves. And I just pause because I'm listening, and they're kind of figuring out, uh, what's the next step? What do I do? I stop myself and I say, it's okay. It's okay. You can say the thing. You don't have to wear the mask in here, you don't have to censor yourself in here, you don't have to worry about, am I gonna say the right word? Um, am I gonna offend her? Like that's off the table in this space. And just seeing the transition from, oh, I have to be careful about what I say, to being empowered to say all of the things. That's what I'm really noticing. That's the trend. And that is just like the coolest thing, honestly, to see and to witness and to be a part of. And I'm just incredibly grateful that people trust me to hold that space for them.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

Yeah, it takes a very special person to listen. It's it's a skill that is so underutilized, especially in corporate America, where I find myself on the day-to-day. Everyone wants to talk. But it sounds like what you're talking about, and and tell me if I'm on the right path, it's almost like emotional bottlenecking. Like you get your emotions get stuck somewhere where they can't continue, they can't continue to move on. And it's funny, we talk about something called validation dependency. And we we had a conversation about this. They're not the same thing, but they kind of live in the same room. Validation dependency, I say, is the pattern where, you know, high achievers, they organize their identity around being chosen, being capable, being the one who puts it together. But the cost of that posturing, and I think that's what we're talking about, right? That censoring is that you can never really put down what you're holding. And what you can't put down, it backs up. So does that map with what you're seeing in your clients? You said there's a shift. Do you see a physical shift? Like what tell me a little bit more about what that shift looks like. Like you have a client that comes in, they have no place to go previously, they talk to you. What does their life look like in 30 days, 60 days, 90 days? What kind of movement can something like this have for your clients?

SPEAKER_00 8:33

Yeah. So I see it. My sessions are an hour long, and I see it in the one-hour session where just the visible relief, like the shoulders maybe up here, and they're like, I don't know if I can say, and they're tense, you know, like they're they're their hands are like this, they're they're inward. And then to be able to say something out loud that maybe they've been carrying around for a really long time, or maybe they just had a really crappy day that day, and they're like, I just need to get this out. Um, just the visible relief, like shoulders come back, they're down, people are they're actually their whole bodies just open up like this. And so I see that visibly happen in a very short period of time. And for my clients, I have clients who come one time. They're they have something going on, they want to vent, they let it out, and they come one time, and then maybe something else is going on with them, and I see them in a month or three months or six months. And then I have other clients who want to have a regular and consistent space. So for them, when I see them go through this, I'm like, okay, like they're more comfortable when they're coming in. They're like, great, I'm ready to go, let's do this. Like they're excited. Like maybe they're not excited about what they have to talk about, but they're excited that they have a space where they can just say it. They're like, okay, let's just do it. Let's get in this. There's no hesitation. They feel freer, the just the obvious relief of being able to put something down and then walking out and literally the deep breath, they're like, okay, I feel good. I'm ready to get like go about my day now. It's it is incredible to see that and to have that relief and to be able to provide that to people is just if it is, it's an honor for me to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

And you said it's not therapy, right? So people come in and they just talk, they just release. This is that's the format.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Well, exactly. I always ask people, how do you want me to listen to you today? That's how I start my sessions. And people are like, wait, what? What does that even mean? How do you I want you to listen to me? Um, I don't know. No one's ever asked me that. And it's a question that we don't think about, and we can use it in all of our conversations throughout our day. But really, what is it? What do you need in this moment? Do you need me to hold space? Do you need me to be present? Do you need me to engage in the empathetic listening where we're making eye contact and I'm doing the mm-hmms and I'm nodding and I'm I'm indicating you to you that I'm fully present in this moment? Is that what you need? Or do you want a conversation? People ask me, will you give advice? Sure. If somebody asks me and says, hey, I want the advice of a completely neutral third party, I'm happy to do that. People say, push back with me, Aaron, give me perspective. What have you ever experienced anything like that? So I will have conversations if people want that. And other people want a combination. They'll say, hey, Aaron, put a timer on for 30 minutes and let me just go for 30 minutes and I'm just gonna unload for 30 minutes. And then I want to have a conversation about what I just said. So it really is dependent on the individual, what they're looking for, what they want in that moment, and it can change throughout the session. But that's what's really unique and special about this.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

I also want to share, Erin. I was thinking about this, and just for my listeners specifically, right? I have a lot of high achievers, especially women who want to move into leadership positions. And the one thing that they don't realize is how lonely leadership can be, right? We all want to get to the top, we all want to be leaders, but when we get up there, there's so much that we can't share. There's so much that stays within what we do on the day-to-day, because our job is to hold other people. And there's not necessarily people to hold us. And I've had these conversations with my supervisor, with my leadership team. And it's it's a big thing. And it can take an emotional toll on you. And people don't realize that in sharing and speaking, everything that you're holding down, you hold it within your body. And when you share and you speak, that's when you end up actually processing through it as well. But the importance is feeling safe. And there's so many spaces where we don't feel safe to do that. And then there's a lot of people who also have fear about going into therapy. What does that say about me? Even in today's day and age. So did you say listening spaces as common as gyms or something along those lines? Like walk me through what that future looks like and what a future like that requires, but does it exist yet? How do we get there? Tell me a little bit more about that.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

Yeah, I think how do we get there? I'll answer that part first, is really like people feeling safe with spaces like this and people understanding what this is and what it isn't, and going, oh my gosh, that's something that I need. Because you're right, there is a stigma still around therapy. And therapy isn't for everybody. I'm very pro-therapy. I work with therapists. Um, but some people that's not what they're looking for. They're afraid they're gonna get a diagnosis or they're afraid they're gonna have to like dig into what happened like a really long time ago, and really they just say, today was hard. Today was just really hard for me. And I just want to talk about why today was really hard for me. And so when I said this should be as common as gyms, like we we spend a lot of time and a lot of money um being physically well. We want to be physically well. So, you know, you are in a busy city, if you've lived in New York City, Boston, like you see gyms on every corner. You can't walk down a city street without seeing a gym or passing some kind of fitness because we have put value into people's physical health. It's important because if we're physically well, then we're expanding our lifespan and things like that. But the mental piece of that is equally as important. And if we're not taking care of that, then it does also have a physical toll. Um, so we need to put as much value in our mental health and these safe spaces as we do our physical health. So I would love to see one day my I have big plans to expand and grow. And I would love to be like, great, there's an unmuted room on the corner. I'm gonna go before I hop into work. I'm gonna grab my coffee, I'm gonna go do a half hour, hour-long vent session, and then I'm gonna go to work and I'm gonna crush it because I freed up the space in my brain and in physically in my body to be like, great, I let that out so now I can put more stuff in. I have more energy, I'm I'm ready to go. And and think about how more productive we'll be in the workforce, or especially for those um executives and CEOs, people that are in these very high-level positions, those are the people that I'm talking to because you're right, they don't have a place to put this. Because, and I've HR directors have said, Aaron, like I've been telling people I've been working with for such a long time that they have to stop like venting to their staff, to their employees, because it does, and they should have a place to do that. But talking to your staff or talking to your employees about, oh my gosh, this is such a problem, like, I don't know how we're gonna make it, like whatever it might be, that starts like freaking out your staff. And they're like, whoa, is this company in trouble?

SPEAKER_02 15:56

And this is like this is what my this is what my doctoral dissertation work is about about how leader characteristics essentially translate into team outcomes through psychological safety, which is exactly what you're talking about. So the problem is, to your point, when you start loading or unloading onto your team, they start to absorb. And then that affects their steady state. And then eventually team performance can erode. So I am so fully with you that having something like this on the corner or even having unmuted room, like you're talking about expanding, right? Like having muted room representatives within companies that you can go to and they're not connected with HR. They're separate. It's a separate business where you go in and people can talk and just get it out. Because that's even why in leadership, why we recommend having a five-minute break, we always say, uh, between meetings, if you can, because you just need a minute to decompress. You need to get it out because otherwise it all carries over. So yeah, this is this is huge. I'm fully supportive. I would love an unmuted room in my company.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Yeah, well, this is what I'm doing. And so I do the individual sessions, but then I am working with companies and going into companies and doing the listening sessions, doing trainings on how to be better listeners, but also like, hey, do you want to have 20-minute vent sessions for your team during your lunch hour? Um, like instead of a lunch and learn, like this is your lunch and learn, if that's what wants, if that's what your employees want available to them, what your staff and team want available to them, or using it as an employee benefit because you're right, like those things may be available, but a lot of times you're like, I don't really want to talk to anyone in my group because what if they think something about me, or is it confidential? And so that's what I'm able to provide.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

You came on the show today. One of the reasons was because the people who listen to this show are a lot of them are the ones that you built the unmuted room for. What do you want them to know about what they are carrying that they may not have words for right now?

SPEAKER_00 17:57

I guess I would say what I always want to do is make sure that people feel validated that this isn't a space where someone's gonna say those feelings are wrong. Your feelings are feelings and there's a reason behind why you have them. And to not be ashamed of those feelings, that they're hard. And yes, there are gonna be people in your life that don't want to hear them. And I understand why people don't want to take that step to get it out. But the relief that you will feel to get it out, whether it's with a friend, a family member, or with me at the unmuted room, that's what this, it's a safe space. And find that safe space, whatever it may be, so that you can let that out. Because keeping it in isn't going to be beneficial for you. It's not going to be beneficial for the people that you care about. Because if you just keep putting stuff in, putting stuff in, it's going to overflow. It's that trash can. You keep dumping it in, dumping it in, dumping it in, eventually it overflows. And you don't want to have that moment of where it overflows and when it overflows. So be proactive and find those safe spaces where you can take some of that out. So trash can dirty laundry, you know, you have to do these things so it doesn't overflow. Um, and just yeah, know that your feelings are valid. And um, if something in your brain, if something in your body is like, you know, I'm holding on to this, it's not going away. You don't have to just say you're fine. You don't have to just say you're fine. It's okay to not be okay and to talk about that.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

So what do you do? You know, you're someone who sits and you listen and you absorb. And there is a cost to that too, right? You obviously you have a you have a skill and you're able to bring it to other people. But a lot of us in leadership positions, like I said, we are constantly absorbing and such. So if you're the one giving, listening, and taking, how do you reset? Are there other things in addition to something like the unmuted room that you recommend or that you found that work for you particularly to release some of some of that energy?

SPEAKER_00 20:05

I think find something that brings you joy. And it doesn't have to be a big grand gesture. It doesn't have to be a big event. It find something 15 minutes in your day where you take a breath, where you take a break, where you, whether it's journaling or whether you like to go for a walk, or you like petting your dog, or whatever, having a good cup of coffee, something for at least 15 minutes that brings you joy, that can kind of recenter you and go, okay, this might be hard, but I'm gonna be okay. And this is bring this makes me happy. Doing something like that. And that's what I do. I go to the ocean. Um I am that soothes me, it calms me, it centers me. Um, and I can replenish. But I do get that question. People are like, Erin, I don't know how you did domestic violence work for as long as you did, and how you're doing this and you listen to people all the time. How do you do that? How are you not burned out? And for me, it I'm certainly not getting any kind of pleasure in seeing people's pain. That's not what it is. But for me, I did not have this space. And not having this space took a toll on me. And I don't ever want anyone to experience what I experienced in feeling like you have to be silent and feeling like you have to, you know, flip a switch so that you're appearing happy and positive. Like it's okay to um say those things and to have a space to let it out. And so for me, not having that and understanding the toll that it took on me, I'm able to being able to provide that to people just gives me energy. It is my passion because I don't want anyone to ever feel like I did. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

So I want to close it out because I'm sure I'm sure the listeners are dying to know. You have all these people coming in and they're venting. And I just had a meeting with my team today where it was like, we're all so much more alike than we think we are. We think that we're so different from everyone else. And then we hear feedback and see it and take surveys and we're like, oh, we're actually way more alike than you think. So give me the top two or three topics that you see people coming in and kind of getting off their chest. What are the things that that maybe trigger them the most on the day-to-day?

SPEAKER_00 22:32

So something that surprised me, I have a lot of people that come in that talk about caring for their aging parents. Um, I know that that is a stressful situation. Um, there's a lot of emotions that are involved with that, seeing your family struggle and getting older and having health issues, but also as the caretaker, like it's your time, it's your free time, it's it's like your time to go do the things you really wanted to do. And now you're caring for this person and the guilt involved with feeling some resentment around that. So that's that's something that I see a lot. Um, I work with people who are going through a divorce, um, which lends itself to my prior background. Um, so a lot of people who are talking to me about divorce and people who are just um, you know, lonely, like wanting to find other relationships, like maybe their friendships aren't fulfilling, maybe their romantic relationships aren't fulfilling them anymore. And what does that mean? Um, so yeah, those it's it's I those are probably things where I've seen recurring themes, but really it could be anything. People who are just they're burned out from their jobs and new moms and um people in blended families and caretakers, and yeah, just balancing being a mom and being in a high stress job and feeling torn between being 100% at work and being 100% at home.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

Yeah, I'm hearing a lot of um it's a lot of battles that people assign to themselves and that they feel that they have to carry and the expectations perhaps that others have of them that they're you know putting up there and that are really frustrating them. And I think having somewhere that you can release and process, and then also doing the inner work at the same time to realize that you are enough as you are, and that you don't necessarily have to be something for someone else or fulfill these roles perfectly. I think you put those two things together and you have an amazing set of future people, future leaders, hopefully people that are again taking care of themselves as much as mentally, as much as they're taking care of themselves physically. So that's great. Now, Aaron, I just want to know where to find you. I will put um your information and and your uh Instagram and such in the show notes as well. I always do, but tell me where where people can find you online and to potentially work for you.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Yeah, that'd be great. Um, my website is a great place to start. It's theunmutedroom.com. So www.theunmutedroom.com. And then on Instagram, it's the dot unmuted room. So those are definitely good places to start. And I offer a free 10-minute consultation. If you're like, hey, this sounds really interesting. Something really resonated with me. I want to explore this further. There's no harm in signing up for a free consult. Check it out and see if it might be a good fit for you.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Well, thank you for your time. It was great having you on the show.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

Thanks, Andy. I appreciate it.