Paramedic Tony: Holy S**t, This Could Have Been Me

He spent 27 years keeping other people alive, while nearly drinking himself to death. Paramedic Tony on trauma, addiction, and the moment everything changed.

Transcript

Welcome to Recovery Realms

Mark 0:08

Welcome to Recovery Rounds, Healers Helping Healers One Story at a Time. I'm your co-host, Dr. Mark Winsburg, a former emergency medicine physician and current addiction medicine specialist with more than 23 years in recovery. And I'm joined by my co-host, Marcy, a retired ICU nurse with over 48 years of bedside experience and more than 10 years in recovery herself. Each month we sit down with someone from the healthcare world who's willing to share their own story about addiction and recovery, disconnection and reconnection, and the path back to reclaiming both the love for themselves and their profession. Our goal is simple but ambitious. By openly telling our stories, we hope to lessen and maybe even eliminate some of the stigma and shame that so often surround the disease of addiction. Shame keeps us silent, silence keeps us sick, and too often that delay in getting help comes at a very high cost. So again, welcome, and let's get started.

Meet Tony the Paramedic

Marcy 1:25

Hi, welcome to Recovery Rounds. I'm Marcy and co-hosting with Mark, and we have Tony with us today, who worked as an EMT for 27 years, EMT and paramedic and flight paramedic, and uh has a very long story and then reinvented himself a few times later, but now he's sober and wanted to share his story with us. Let's just hear how how did you get started? When did alcohol become a problem for

Early Drinking and High School

Marcy 1:52

you?

SPEAKER_02 1:52

I started my first experience with alcohol with I was 11. I tell this in my story in recovery, but it was my friend stole a beer from his mom and slept over my house, and we split the beer, and it's like, wow, this is the magic I've been missing. Yeah, I didn't really start drinking heavily until probably high school. I I got introduced to pot and stuff about the same time when I was 11, but it wasn't really my thing. Freshman year, I just I had a lot of new friends because the two middle schools combined in Brighton. And a lot of my friends had parents who had really nice jobs and big houses with fully stocked bars, so we would skip school and go start messing around and drinking. And I did that through most of high school. I did summer school every year because I was always screwing off during the year. But I graduated and I went directly to I take it back. I my friends that I had been hanging around with in high school were getting into cocaine and heroin and crazy stuff like that. And I wasn't all for that. So I decided to move to Utah and stay with my uncle because that made sense. I didn't know he was a drug addict, so that didn't really help me too much. And I stayed out there but maybe I don't know, a year. When I came back, I went to RIT. This is just a side note of how my addictions and everything affected my life. Both my parents worked at RIT, so I could go for free. And I couldn't be bothered with school, so I was like, I'm not, I'm not sticking out here. I would go to RIT and I'd make it maybe to the little Rath Skiller or whatever it is, where they had beer on tap, and I would never I had a fake ID. By the time I was 18, uh drugs and alcohol had really influenced me, if you

Rockstar Dreams and Party Life

SPEAKER_02 3:34

will. I played guitar since I was probably seventh grade. So my goal was I wanted to be a rock star. And in the 80s, that was very appealing because the MTV came out with the videos and the girls and the cars and all this stuff. And so I was like, that's what I want to do. And where am I going with this? Oh, yeah. So I dropped out of school at RIT and I just got involved in the local music scene. And there was this party lifestyle that went with back then. Molly Crew was one of my favorite bands at the time when I was younger. And all they did is party, like every picture you saw with a bottle of booze or something crazy. I just thought that's what you did. And I could play pretty well by the time I was about 21, where people would ask me to play in bands with them, and I'd get fired from every band I was in. When it was like, but I don't drink when I'm on stage. And the problem was I was just this crazy drunk afterwards in every other place I was always drinking, and I guess it was an asshole. It was mostly getting, or I just wouldn't have the work ethic to do the job. So I ended up playing with a band that had a record label, but they had broken up. So they were trying to keep it together. And we were looking for a singer. I met this guy in Florida that came up to audition. And I ended up going down there and playing in a band with this guy. And it was supposed to be an original thing, record some songs, blah, blah, blah. And I ended up playing in this little podunk bar that was connected to a liquor store in Milton, Florida, up on the panhandle, the gateway to nowhere. And I played five nights a week from nine to two. I probably got paid, actually got money once because my bar tab was always more than like paycheck kind of thing. I was couch surfing, but it was fun. Like, it was just fun. Pensacola Beach was right there. I was like, oh, this is awesome. I could do this. And I had found out right when I left to go to Florida that my girlfriend was pregnant. So I had this thing in the back of my head that I'm gonna have to come back to New York at some point. So maybe this is like my nine months of wild times, and then I'm gonna have to be an adult. And that's what I did. I came back, I brought my drummer with me, and I was driving a Camaro with a trailer full of gear. It was hilarious.

Fatherhood Sparks EMT Path

SPEAKER_02 5:47

And I pulled in the driveway, and my soon-to-be wife, this is I'm in labor. So I basically came back from the rock and roll party lifestyle, couch surfing to I got this little baby now. What do I do? And uh her mother was an EMT and a nurse. And I just found one of the books laying around and I started looking through it, and I'm like, oh, this is cool. And I had a experience or two when I was younger, like when I was in Salt Lake, we were going somewhere in this car at night, and this guy's walking across the street and has a seizure and drops in the middle of the intersection. I jumped out and I'm like, try to pull him out of the road and help him, and I don't know what to do, but I try to do something, and uh that kind of always stuck with me. I was like, man, what if this happens again? I'm not I'm gonna not do anything again because I just don't know what to do. As a kid, like one of my favorite shows was Johnny and Roy, The Emergency, that whole thing. I watched a lot of that. We watched MASH religiously with my parents, so I was always watching these guys patch people up and fix things and whatever. And uh Mother Jugs and Speed, I remember that movie. I still didn't get it, but I was always drawn to it. So I decided to take the EMT course. And I was probably two months in the EMT class. I think it's like a three-month class or something. So I had my CPR and all that, and I had a baby. My daughter was, I don't know, probably six months old, eight months old. Started choking on an apple, right? So I do the CPR, Heimlich, whatever it was that I was trained to do. I didn't do the Heimlich on her, I just hit her back. But she, you know, she was turning colors, so I felt like that was a legitimate thing. And I was like, holy crap, I just saved my kids' life. I was like, I think I'm in the right line of work because if I hadn't done this, who knows what would have happened. So I went to completed the class, passed my uh tests and all that, got my piece of paper saying I'm now an EMT

Thrown Into EMS Culture

SPEAKER_02 7:40

basic. And uh two weeks later I was hired by one of the two big commercial ambulance companies in Monroe County. I got three days of training and I was off on my own with another guy, and it was just like thrown into the fire because I didn't know. And in the early 90s, it was still there was no cell phones, no GPS. There was these guys had fun, and I laughed more than ever on the ambulance. But early on, I would be riding with a guy and he'd be like, We gotta stop at my house, and he'd go in and he'd go, Come on, come in, and we get a snack, and then you'd like to pour a couple shots. Here you go. And I'm like, It's 10 o'clock in the morning. I'm like, I don't think we're supposed to be doing this, and I didn't do it. I was just someone was telling me, like, I don't think this is right. I'm not, I don't want to start out this way because everything in my life I would start out like that as soon as I could deviate from the plan and do something stupid. But, anyways,

Paramedic School and Promotion

SPEAKER_02 8:33

yeah, I I had gotten married in the middle of all that chaos. And uh, my wife, ex-wife now, is is also an addict alcoholic. And I know like some people say you're not supposed to say that if it's a duck, it quacks like a duck. And so I six months after I was married, I moved out, and because I was still in the middle of paramedic school, and I was like, I can't like live in this chaos, and she wouldn't come home. I'm calling my boss saying, Hey, can't come home because my wife's not here and I don't know where she is, and I have a little baby. So I that ended up moved out, finished the class. I had terrible academics in high school. It was like, I don't know, terrible GPA. And in that when I did the paramic thing, it was 3.85 or something like that. I excelled at it, and I think because I really was into it.

Mark 9:21

That makes a difference.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

Yeah, I really was eating it up, and I wouldn't take notes, I would just listen and read. And I show up and they'd be like, You ready for the test? And I'm like, What test? We have a test. Oh, and I get almost high 90s most of the time, and it just came naturally to me. The cool part was the clinical stuff when I'd be out with the patients doing my clinical time. I just got in it, I didn't stand back and watch. Like, I wanted to do it. Anything I could do to learn or get my hands on a patient, I would do it. And I got a reputation for being like this guy that was like super aggressive, but really good. And uh that got me a promotion. So now I'm running a shift, so that I'm in charge of things too, and that was new to me, also. Wasn't really prepared for that because if you know about addiction, you know that most people when they start drinking at a certain age, you don't mature. I was crazy. I just expected everybody to do things the way that I did them. And I was one of those guys that this operating procedure is stupid. I'm gonna fix it, we're gonna make this better. And uh, it just made me crazy.

Mark 10:26

I got a question.

Trauma Calls and Emotional Toll

Mark 10:27

So you went from budding rock star to father of a baby to studying to be an EMT and paramedic. When you got in the field, did any of it bother you? Either the personal trauma of the people you were taking care of, the blood, broken bones, whatever. Did you register any kind of effect other than this is cool?

SPEAKER_02 10:54

Yes. The only thing that I was really terrified was somebody puking on me. I could handle the blood and guts, especially as I went through the paramedic intern. I was up in the ICU at Strong and working in on people. I got to see a lot. So by that point, I had done and seen a lot of things, so it wasn't so shocking to me. Plus, as an EMT, I went on a lot of calls that were just crazy. A guy had a World War I fighting knife sticking out of his chest and it was moving when his heart would be. I'm the basic EMT. Oh, what am I gonna do with this? Yeah, the guy he wasn't a paramedic, they had a level below paramedic for a while. He set up and I didn't know how to do it because nobody taught me that. That kind of stuff would make me nuts. I'm like, I need to know this. I can't be like just sitting here and not doing anything. But going back to what bothered me, the things that really got to me were we'd work a code, do CPR on somebody's husband or wife, and then I would have to explain to the surviving person that I'm sorry, but your husband has died. We're trying to resuscitate him, but he's not gonna, this isn't gonna change. When that was hard, like within the first month of being a paramedic cleared on my own, I had uh my first pediatric cardiac arrest, and we left St. Mary's Hospital and we were going out to like Spencerport or something for this thing, and I'm just like looking through my protocols and freaking out, and it was a Sid's baby, so there's nothing we were gonna do. But roll into the scene and the firefighters are praying over the kid, and I was like, okay, we probably should do CPR while we're at it. And I wasn't a jerk, I was just confused. What is going on? Why aren't they doing CPR and not even realizing that a lot of these guys don't ever experience that? They just show up and it's that call, and that's the only one they ever have. But I was I was so freaked out. I called the medical control at Strong and I had the pediatric attending on the phone. And I just said, Listen, I'm a new paramedic. I think I know what I'm doing here, but I just want to double check with you because I want to do things right. And she stayed on the phone, be the whole way to the hospital. And I did everything right. And I was fine until the parents showed up because it was at a daycare, and it just wrecked me. And I I didn't let anybody know. I just went outside. Okay, stuff this one down somewhere in a compartment and move on.

Mark 13:07

I think we come from similar backgrounds, both Marcy and I and you, that I worked in the emergency room, and 99% of the people that came through the emergency room, it wasn't any big deal, wasn't any major emergency, but the ones that were, and particularly, I remember one time the child of one of the state troopers was killed in a car wreck, and they brought the kid to the hospital where I was working, and the whole police force, all the state troopers showed up and the family was there, and I had to go in there and say, kid's dead, and then move on to the other room. It's just in insane making. And we had no with a smile on your face.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Yeah, exactly.

Mark 13:53

And what do you do with that? You stuff it.

Marcy 13:56

I think after 48 years at the bedside, I still have a top five worst deaths that I had to deal with. And I could tell you the stories right now with all the details because they one of them was like within three or four years of when I started being a nurse. So this is a long time ago that has stuck on my top five worst deaths. But yeah, it's hard when the family comes in.

SPEAKER_02 14:17

Yeah, I have the same thing.

Biggest Calls and Bottling It Up

SPEAKER_02 14:19

Right when I was finishing my paramedic, we had an 11-year-old girl get hit by a car on a bike and she was multi-systems trauma, still alive. And the guy running the call was the critical care, which were the step down from the paramedics. And I had basically finished the class. I was just getting ride time. So I was basically, I knew more than this guy. And they just looked at me like, what do you want to do? And I'm like, Oh shit, okay, let's do it. And we started working. We got, I think we were, I don't remember where we were, phone stealing ridge up in Greece. We made it to Rochester General in 11 minutes from the time of the call till we got to the hospital because we just scooped her and screwed at the hospital. But I was trying to intubate her the whole time. She had had drama, so she's vomiting and there's blood. And I mean, it's all it was it was violent in there. And I'm starting to gag because it was getting pretty gross, and the guys were looking at me like, don't puke, because if you puke, we're gonna puke. And I'm like, okay. But we you remember RGH used to have the the base, and you'd walk in, and then before they remodeled, we rolled in there and the doors open, and she had coded. So I'd started doing compressions, and this guy runs in and he's freaking out. It's her dad. And I'm like, oh my god. And I just I was like, I'm not looking at this guy because he's probably gonna think it's my fault or something. And that was the first real bad one I had, and I went home with a bottle of something and called my mom, which is I'm sure she was loving that story. But she just she stayed on the phone with me and I drank for three days and I went back to work, and that was the last we ever talked about it until way later. But that's one I can still smell that and see it.

Mark 15:56

Yeah. This episode is produced and sponsored by Mark Winsburg, MD Medical Services PLLC, my private addiction medicine practice here in Rochester, New York. I provide confidential, individualized care for people with substance use issues, especially professionals who value their privacy and prefer care independent of hospital systems and insurance company involvement. Learn more at my website, winsburgmd.com. That's W-I-N-S-B-E-R-G-M D dot com.

SPEAKER_02 16:36

But yeah, they stay with you.

Mark 16:37

So I know it's true that the culture in EMS is similar to the culture in the emergency room, is similar to the culture in the ICU, is suck it up, do your job, yeah, move on. And there's not much room for feelings. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 16:57

Yeah, it was like that my whole career. At the end of my career, when I was working for the flight side, they also had a ground ambulance in that area. And I worked both. And that was like 6 30 in the morning. My shift started at 6. We got a call. We're going two counties away. Helicopter couldn't fly because of weather, because we hadn't gone to instruments yet. If it's cloudy out and you can't see stuff, you don't fly. And they kept screaming for the helicopter. I was the last ambulance in, and I have the level of training that they need. I just don't have aircraft. And it was there was nine people in a car that got hit by a drunk kid at 6:30 in the morning, Memorial Day. No car seats in these kids. And I was literally stepping over bodies to the fire trucks and everybody just parked like willy-nilly over. It wasn't very it was chaos. But I remember the they were like, you gotta check the driver. And it was the guy, the kid that killed all these people. And uh they opened the door and he was handcuffed to the stretcher. And I'm like, What's wrong? Like his arm hurts. Closed the door, went on to the next one. I'm like, he doesn't need me. They had a 10-year-old that was bad head trauma and posturing was like not good. And they weren't really doing anything, they were just still on scene. I'm like, Why are you guys still here? And they're like, We're waiting for the helicopter. And I'm like, I'm it, and there's no helicopter. I'm like, you gotta go, right? Just go. And we were out in Wyoming County, so we're just in the middle of nowhere. So in the middle of all this, I talk to the chief, and it sounds like I'm not gonna get a patient out of this. I got lucky, and this volunteer firefighter, she comes walking up with this four-year-old kid in her arms and goes, Here's your patient. And I was like, Where'd you find her? And they're like, In the ditch, because they were all ejected. And I'm like, Oh my god, you're kidding me. So she was conscious, pretty stable. She had some fractures and stuff, but she wasn't gonna die from it. But where I'm going with the feelings thing is she's like, Where's my mom? And I'm like, we're walking by her mother with a stretcher. She's got a sheet over her, and my partner's bawling, she can't even keep it together. And I'm like, now it's not the time. She goes, Yeah, no, but it's so sad. And I'm like, get in the truck and start driving. I'm like, just close the hatch, stay on the road, don't kill us. And uh, it was I didn't deal with that call. I think four people died. There's three kids or two adults, two kids. Years later, I got subpoenaed because he's suing somebody that sold his kid the beer or whatever, and I got to relive that whole thing. And I was like, okay, I need some therapy, I think, because it was really starting to affect me. And by the time I got subpoenaed, I had gotten sober. So I had all this stuff, and no, I can't talk to my significant other about it because she's not in the medical profession, and it's like she's either gonna get traumatized by it or just not understand. And most of the time it's that blank stare, but so, anyways, yeah,

Debriefings and Workplace Loss

SPEAKER_02 19:47

the feelings thing, no. But they started doing these critical incident debriefings at the very end. Help them, yes, if you have the right crew doing it. Sometimes I was like, What are you guys talking about? It's like they were the they weren't, I don't know. The a couple of them I got really pissed off because I was like, the reason that this stuff happened, we had an employee died, it's a long story, but stole medicine for rapid sequence intubation RSI because she was an addict apparently, heroin addict, and she basically shot a broccuronium or something, and she's just dead, but not dead, because she's gonna witness she'll be her brain will be there for a minute. Well, that works, but I had kept pushing them not to keep her on because I just saw too many things. They were trying to debrief us, and I was like, You know about this when you hired her. I just was so upset, and uh, but again, I got all this anger and I can't put

First AA Wake Up Call

SPEAKER_02 20:39

it anywhere.

Mark 20:40

When did it occur to you that it might be worthwhile getting sober?

SPEAKER_02 20:44

Okay, so in 1999, I was taking classes for my paramedic degree, which unless you're gonna stay a paramedic has very little value, but that's another whole story. One of the classes I had to take was drugs and alcohol. And the guy, which I found out later that was teaching the class is an AA and he was well known in the community. Anyways, we had to go to a meeting, AA meeting, and do a report on it. Well, back up just a little bit. Before that, I've never been to rehab, so I've never had the evaluation, but there's some form you answer yes or no to, and based on the amount of points, the more likely you are to be addict or alcoholic. And I'm 32 years old, I'm in a classroom with a bunch of 18, 19-year-old kids, and they're getting like threes and four. I have a 20. And they're all like, whoa, overachiever. Yeah, I think I hadn't been to jail or incarcerated. That was two of the questions, and I think those are the only two, actually. And I never got a DWI, so those three things, but anyways, so the guy he said, Hey, you think you might have a problem? And I'm like, No, I don't have a problem, good. That's just that's what happens. Denial. And uh, so I go to this A meeting, and the speaker of the meeting is my neighbor, lives like across the street from me. And I say this a lot when I tell my Story, but it's like I was positive that my wife had somehow told this guy what I was up to because he told my story. Different job, different this, but it was the same deal. And I was like, Oh man, I think I am an alcoholic. And uh it took me a while. I kept going to meetings, but I was still drinking, which was weird. But I don't know, that's what alcoholics do. You go to a meeting and then you go to the bar and talk about that Yaya meeting, but you're drinking. I don't know. But I just finally decided that I needed to stop drinking. And drugs were not part of my story at that point. I was because I just didn't once I started doing the work, there was a couple times, but mostly it was just alcoholic.

Marriage Chaos and Navy Detour

SPEAKER_02 22:38

And I had to move out. I couldn't stay with my wife because she was complete codependent and she wouldn't want me to drink, but she'd go to the liquor store and stock up or whatever. And you're not really helping here. And uh my friend who is that guy, the recovery guy I was telling you about, it's your addiction, not hers. You have to take care of it. She's not gonna take care of it for you.

Marcy 22:59

And I was like, Yeah, she's supposed to. If she's sabotaging you, then that's not right a good place to be.

SPEAKER_02 23:05

It was terrible. So I moved out, and uh my kids were old enough to they were, I don't know, still adolescent, they weren't teenagers, but how many kids did you have at that point? Oh, I had two. Okay, so I'll give you a little bit more of the story. So I had this thing as an alcoholic that I was always looking for is the next thing that was gonna make my life perfect. Yeah. So I'm on my lunch break and I'm riding around with this guy who is in the Navy reserves, and he's like, You should join the Navy.

Mark 23:31

Why not?

SPEAKER_02 23:32

Yeah, so I'm like, Yeah. So I go to the recruiters and I enlist as a reservist in the Navy on my lunch break. And I didn't tell my wife, I didn't, I just did it, right? And I wanted to be a corpsman medic, right? So they said, Yeah, you could do that, you're already a paramedic, blah, blah, blah. We got this advanced pay grade program, you don't have to do a long boot camp. You can go and do this. And so I was like, cool. And uh, they stuck me with the Marine Infantry, Marine Corps Infantry, once I went through my training. And Marines like to drink soda sailors, so I was still just up to my eyeballs. So fast forward, I I tried to stop drinking, and I'm sorry, I didn't stop drinking until I got out of the Navy in 2000. And I was in there for four years. I got in a car accident and I got a medical discharge because I wasn't physically qualified anymore. And then 9-11 happened and they call you want to re-enlist kind of thing, but you gotta go to boot camp if you re-enlist. I was like, no, I'm not doing that again.

Relapse After Seven Years

SPEAKER_02 24:28

Go fast forward. So I'm 30 something years old living with my parents, trying to explain to them that I'm an alcoholic and my dad's old school off the boat from Greece, and he's no, don't no. And I'm like, okay, whatever. So I didn't drink for seven years. I stayed in AA for about three, but I did it my way. I'm not getting a sponsor. I got a therapist, I don't need a sponsor, blah, blah, blah. I wasn't gonna do the four step. There's just no way I'm doing that. We don't need to do that kind of thing. And so I remember one Christmas, somebody gave us a wine basket, and I was just like, I'm gonna drink this. And then it was off to the races again until 2018. And it it never got better, it always got worse, like it progressively got worse. And I was in a marriage I didn't want to be in. I was just chaos constantly.

Tattoo Life And Temptation

SPEAKER_02 25:18

And that's when I had started tattooing, I was on East Avenue where all the bars are.

Mark 25:22

So this is a new chapter. Okay, yeah. So I'm sorry, we haven't heard about dating yet.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

All over the place. So 2000 2001 happens. I go down to the World Trade Center, I make it till 2003, my card expires. I sell the ADs for a year, and then I start getting into the tattoo world. And I'm not shitting on the tattoo world, but that's one of those professions where there's lots of drugs and alcohol and anything goes kind of stuff.

Marcy 25:47

Just what you want as a drunk tattoo artist. Right. When you're doing your ink.

SPEAKER_02 25:51

I never drank when I tattooed.

Marcy 25:53

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

I can say that for sure. But afterwards, we'd be in the shop till the sun came up some nights because it was just like we're done working. And clients like to tip you with booze and whatever else. 2005, I was tattooing. What were you what was the question? Because I got sidetracked.

Mark 26:08

I initially asked about you had two children.

Family Chaos And Touring

SPEAKER_02 26:12

Oh, yeah. Okay. So in '96, I was working as a paramedic. My wife got pregnant with my second daughter, and I went to boot camp right when she was supposed to have the baby. Because timing is everything. I that's what I do. She said, What do you mean you're leaving? And I'm like, I gotta go. I signed the paper. This so yeah, I had two kids. I tried to send my wife to rehab at one point for cocaine, and she went, but she stopped and went to school and got a job, and things were good for five or six years. And then, as it always does, it creeps back in, and then we were right back in the full chaos mode. Also, during this time when I was tattooing, I got back into the music scene and we I got these guys together, recorded the CD and had a the singer had a lot of money, so he was making things a lot easier to happen for us because he would just pay to get us places. So I went out to LA. I played 11 Straight Days in Hollywood, and then we were New York City. We're getting a lot of stuff was happening. But when we got to LA, they wander off the singer and the drummer and find the drugs. And this girl comes to the hotel room with this purse full of anything you could imagine. And I'm like, no, because I wasn't drinking, I was the only sober guy at that point. And I just remember like taking it away, and they would get mad and they'd want to fight me. And I'm like, You're gonna die if you do all these drugs. Like, you just what are you doing? I guess they forgot I was a paramedic and I had seen like a lot of heroin overdoses and a lot of other stuff. We literally came back from Hollywood, and it just my singer was going through withdrawal on the plane. I get back and all my stuff was stolen from my house because my bass player had stolen all this shit because he's a heroin addict. And his answer was I was dope sick. What do you want me to say? I'm like, star, we're sorry, but he's one of the few guys that actually made it, he's not dead, surprisingly. But so I went through all that too, and my kids were just along for the ride during the whole thing. I it was the weirdest thing because if we didn't ship them off, they would just be in the house and we'd have the plate of drugs under the couch or just drunk. And it was like normal because if I went to somebody else's house, they'd do the same thing. And I realized I was hanging out with people that were all drug addicts, like myself. And I don't really call myself an addict because I didn't really seek the drugs, they were around and I was already drunk. I'm like, okay, whatever. But I wasn't that guy that was like looking for it, fortunately, because I think things would have been a lot worse for me. But I did my fair share. So I'm not gonna sit here and say, Oh, I never did drugs. I did a lot of drugs, but it was like a binge thing. It wasn't a I don't know, I feel like I'm making excuses for

Injuries And Close Calls

SPEAKER_02 28:46

it or something.

Mark 28:46

Did you ever have any serious consequences, legal consequences or health consequences from drinking or using or both?

SPEAKER_02 28:56

No legal. I came close, but I got in a lot of fight, and I broke my nose in a bar fight that I wasn't really participating in. I was just happening to be standing next to my friend who started this crap, this marine. And I, from what I'm told, I got hit with a beer bottle, and it deviated my septum so bad I had to have a total of three surgeries, and they still want to do another surgery. And I'm just, no, I don't want to do this, it's terrible. But that consequence is with me every day. I can't breathe when I lay down to go to sleep. It's I have to CPAP, doesn't necessarily help it. Sometimes it does. So I did have some physical consequences and just other stupid injuries, like trying to play Bruce Lee and kick my foot through this barn wall and break my foot. I'm like, I got this. Like, oh my God. But there wasn't severe consequences, like legally or otherwise.

Mark 29:51

So what finally decided you that enough is

Bike Crash And Career Pivot

Mark 29:55

enough?

SPEAKER_02 29:55

So I was tattooing and I had become an avid cyclist, cycling a lot. And I got really drunk one Saturday night, and I decided to just get rid of my hangover by going and ride as far as I could pedal. And uh I caught my pedal on the ground. I don't know what I was doing, but I flipped over and I shattered my collarbone. I was up on the lake in Charlotte and uh got an ambulance ride to the hospital, but I was like, I don't need ALS. I I'm fine, I just need x-ray or something. But it was like tenting my skin, and it like really is bad. And the surgeon came in and says, You need surgery. And I was like, What? I ended up having the surgery. I got a plate in my shoulder and I don't know, 13 screws or something crazy, but I couldn't really tattoo because it was my right arm. I tried, but it just, I'm like, no, this isn't gonna work. So while I'm in recovery, I'm like, you know what? I think I'm just gonna recertify my paramedic. And uh, so I did. And at that point, I really wanted to get out of my marriage. My youngest daughter was about to graduate from high school. I stuck around the whole time. I just couldn't, I wasn't gonna leave her with my wife. I'm not saying my wife would have done anything bad, but there was just a lot of people around that I didn't feel like they needed to be left alone with. So I stayed. I remember I took the test, and of course I walk into the class, and it's the guy teaching classes from 20 years ago that taught my class. And he's like, You're an EMS until you're not, and then you're back at EMS when you are. It just happens. So I was like, I'm not doing anything with this, I'm just killing time. And the boss of my old company is in line, he was doing his EMTs, like, come in and see me. So I'm like, all right, I'll work part-time, make a little money, and that turned into full-time, and there I was right back in, and then I'm working part-time out in Genesee County, and I was off to races again, and then within a year being back there, they made me a lieutenant again. So it was just the same shit show I left like way before, and nothing really had changed, it was the same nonsense, except now you have to be nice to people and can't make anybody uncomfortable and yell at them. You have to kid gloves everything, and that wasn't really working for me as a supervisor.

Mark 32:04

You were still drinking at this point?

SPEAKER_02 32:07

Yes.

Relationship Ultimatums

SPEAKER_02 32:08

During this period when I was transitioning from tattooing to paramedic, I had met my girlfriend, which I think you both have met at some point, and uh she would come and see me at a tattoo shop. I was I was out of the house going through dwarfs, whatever. And she's smelling like booze. I'm like, Yeah, I just had a couple beers, and she didn't really say anything. So as it got more serious, she was like, Listen, we can't be in a thing relationship because I'm sober and I live a certain way, and it's not gonna work. So I was like, okay, I'll quit drinking. So I go to meetings and blah blah did the one foot in, just enough to keep her happy. But she'd go away for work, hammered, lose my phone in the snow, call my daughter, you gotta come bring me to get my car, kind of thing. And she's like, we don't have to tell her. And I'm like, nah, we gotta tell her, right? Because she's gonna find out. So I did that maybe two, three times, and uh then it was I was going to meetings, but it was like only if she told me to, and I just really wasn't buying it. I just didn't want

Spiral Back Into Drinking

SPEAKER_02 33:07

to do it. And uh, so we broke up, and that was like 2017, and I had been playing in a band locally, so I was in the bars all the time. So I went from really not drinking, just being a dry drunk, to holy shit, a bottle a day, just like a game on. And uh by that point, I was working eight days a month as a paramedic because they worked 24-hour shifts, so I had lots of time to drink, and I did, and I just drank and drank, and I think I was probably trying to kill myself, honestly, because I just I was like, my life sucks, I hate my job. Now I'm single, what am I doing? And uh, the only good thing was I had a partner, she was a lot younger than me, but she knew my story because I had told her, and I wasn't drinking up until I became single. So I'm telling her what's going on, and she's you can't drink, don't do it. And I'm like, too late, I'm doing it. So she was really like she kept nagging my in my ear, you you should go to eight, you should not do this. This is not good for you. Because she would watch how I my behavior changed. I had zero patience for anything. And this was during like Black Lives Matter at their heyday, and tensions were high, we couldn't go on any calls about the police because just wearing a badge and a uniform, they were they treated us like we were the cops. And I was getting really pissed. I'm like, I'm not the bad guy here. They're like, what do you what is your problem? And I just started, I was getting to the point where I'm like, I'm gonna go hands-on with this guy pretty soon if he doesn't back off. And I'm like, I can't do that because I'll lose my job. And that's just not I'm not doing that. If I had been drunk, I would definitely have done that, but it's just not drunk

Rock Bottom On The Job

SPEAKER_02 34:46

when I'm working. And uh so I'll fast forward, I was drinking like that. It got so bad, my hands were shaking so bad when I had to work that I would have to have my partner start the IBs, or she was an intermediate so she could intubate and do that, and I would just throw her the airway kit and be like, This is you, and she'd look at me like, What? And I'm like, you know how to do it, just do it. And because and I would never do that. I always always like, I'm the guy, right? But I couldn't even stick a needle in the meds half the time. I had to have her drawing up my meds, and I was I didn't make the connection. I just was like, What I just I feel like shit, I can't. And during that time, I probably had the worst calls of my life. I had kids, fatals, bad crashes, or watching a guy die as he's pinned in a car, just stuff, and it's like the helicopter's 20 feet away on the road, and we can't do anything. And it just got to that point where I was like, This is terrible. So, fast forward, I got really drunk one night. I didn't remember drinking that much, which is the weird thing. But as I drank, as this progressed, I started getting wobbly and I would follow her backwards all the time. Like somebody was pulling. And I'm like, wow, that's weird. I never used to do that. One night I fell and I knocked myself out. I think I got a maybe cracked my skull. I don't know. But I woke up on the floor and my phone was ringing, and they're like, Are you coming to work? And I'm like, holy shit. I didn't even know where I was. So I obviously didn't go to work. Got through that, was like, okay, I'm not gonna drink. And it would go for a few days at a time. I could make it, and I started trying to get it together.

Clarity And Real Recovery

SPEAKER_02 36:13

And then I had a transport from I'm pretty sure this might have been ground. I I can't remember, anyways. Same thing, guy fell down some stairs, basilar skull fracture, but he wasn't gonna make it. He was on a vent, and uh, I they were like, eh, he might make it for the ride to the to ECMC in Buffalo. So I've got the monitor over his feet, I'm at the head, I got all the stuff hooked up, the van work and everything. And I'm just like, Holy shit, this could have been me. It was like that moment of clarity where I was like, I'm done. I have to be done. And that wasn't the day I stopped drinking, but soon after that, I reached out to Shannon and I said, Hey, I need some help. I can't do this anymore. Like, I'm gonna die. And she was like, You know what to do, go to meetings. And I'm like, Oh, okay, thanks. Thanks. But I did, and I was really trying. And right when I discovered the 630 meeting that we all know about in the morning, for those of you listening, I had another moment where a kid was road raging me and he raced past me to flipping the bird and the whole thing, young kid. And he had to stop because there was traffic everywhere. And I found myself like trying to get him out of the car. And I'm like, how am I doing? So I got back in my truck and I started going to meetings every day, and I just started doing it for real. And by that point, I had about two years of not drinking, and I thought I was sober, but until I really had that moment where I just knew that was the end for me. I wouldn't, I'm not doing this anymore. That's when the obsession went away. It's just like all of a sudden, I because that's just to back up, like I couldn't stop drinking. I knew I needed to, but I couldn't. It was that was the only thing I thought about. It's the typical story. I was planning my next drink just like everybody else. And it was like that's the only thing I was thinking about. And when that went away, it's like I can now focus on me and all my bullshit. And there was a lot of it. There's mountains of it.

Mark 38:10

The uh interesting part of a lot of people's stories is being willing to finally accept help from others, and as you did with Shannon, and then I assume as you're going to meetings, start opening up and listening to what other people are saying. And it's the ego is an incredible thing to overcome. It's a monster. Mine was huge. And you have a history of when you want to do something, you do it. Yeah. And you do it well. And it's really hard to get that notion in your head that this is something that I'm going to need help with. Because every time I try it my way, it goes the wrong way.

SPEAKER_02 38:54

Yeah, every time. Yeah. Even today, sober. If I don't pay attention with my business, if I'm like, I think this is how I'm going to do this. And let's no, talk to some people that have done this already, and they'll say, no, that's not going to work. Get an accountant, maybe. I don't know. That

PTSD Therapy And Tools

SPEAKER_02 39:09

kind of stuff. And oh, accountants are pretty awesome when you have a business. But I early on, 2018, when I stopped, I also reached out to my old therapist because I had gone to a psychiatrist, I think. Because I have OCD also. You don't see it too much anymore, but I'm OCD. I'm like out of control. But I'm medicated and it works. It's a lot of behavioral mental stuff too. But anyway, so he was like just asking all these questions and he's you have PTSD. And I was like, No, I don't. I'm fine. Because that's again me. I'm there's nothing wrong with me. And I did. So I started going to therapy for PTSD. And because I was having flashbacks, like I would have them while I'm driving, run a stop sign because I'm not even behind the wheel at that point. I'm off on some call somewhere. I would do it on stage when I'm playing. We'd be playing in front of a couple hundred people or whatever it was. And I'm off in Lala Land remembering this kid that got killed, or who knows? It doesn't even have to be like a bad one, just remembering stuff. And I learned some tools to deal with that. And it was really cool. The therapist, I had this one call when I was a supervisor. It was a four-year-old kid, it's a respiratory thing, and the parents had been to strong or one of the hospitals, and they gave him like a beautiful neb to take home the machine, not the puffers. So they basically nebulized the kid for 24 hours straight. And he was in deep shit. Yeah. And I didn't get the call. One of my crews got the call, but I was right there. So I jumped in and intercepted them, jumped on the ambulance, and I could see the look on my buddy's face, who was one I trained, and he's one of the best paramedics I've ever worked with. And I could just see this was not going to go well. So we took them into Unity because that's the closest hospital. And uh they're like, there's no PAL certified staff right now except the doctors. You have to stay here. And I'm like, what? So the doc literally threw me like the I.O. kit and all the whole crash thing. And I worked on this kid with a doctor and one nurse. They brought the family in to watch, and uh, it just fucked me up. And I had just put in my resignation to go to the other place to fly. So I'm walking out of there after we call it after an hour or something. And uh the chief should, he's like, Are you quitting because of me? And I was just like, You need to walk away right now because this is not a good time. And uh, but that really messed me up. And that call, still to this day, I can see that kid's face and I can see his eyes, and they just get they're not glossy anymore. There's they're just empty. And uh, she was like, When that happens, tell the kid I see you, and imagine him holding a balloon and floating away. And I was like, I can do that, and it worked, which is amazing, but it really worked. Like all of a sudden I could talk about this call without losing my shit. And uh so I I say that because maybe I'll help somebody else because I know I'm not the only one that's been there.

Marcy 42:02

But isn't it amazing how we think we can go through these things and not be affected to them by them in like the deepest way? It was COVID that broke me. I have PTSD from COVID and

Closing Advice For Medics

Marcy 42:13

Tony.

Mark 42:15

I hate to say it, but I think we're we're out of time. We're out of time. I would love to continue and would love to share war stories with you. As we close, is there anything any words of wisdom that you might give to your compatriots in the paramedic field or any words of wisdom?

SPEAKER_02 42:36

Yeah. Don't compartmentalize stuff. It doesn't make you weak to get therapy or whatever it is. I don't know if there's any groups out there for medical, but you gotta deal with that stuff because it comes back and it comes out in weird ways. We all know. If you think you're an alcoholic or you think you're an addict, just go to a meeting. Like nobody's gonna judge you. There's probably millions of us, right? And worldwide. But yeah, it doesn't nobody has to know. It's why it's anonymous. There's help. And I think the toughest thing is admitting you need it, right? Yep. But there is help out there, and there's it's not just AA, there's lots of things. So that would be my suggestion, or get a new job and still get therapy.

Mark 43:19

The reason for this podcast is to have people like you, have people like Marcy, myself, physicians, nurses, therapists. We all go through difficult situations, and we all go through a similar culture of keeping it quiet, and you're messed up if you have feelings about it. Really appreciate your coming today and sharing with us, and look forward to seeing you at 6 30. Yeah. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 43:47

I probably talked too much, didn't let you get your questions in. Oh, there was one question that said, Did you miss a job? And no, I don't. There's times, little times, where I'm like, Oh, I like doing that, but overall, no.

Mark 44:00

Yeah, I feel the same way about the ED mainly because I'm never gonna stay up all night again. I don't wanna do that. But also, these careers are young people's games. And if you stay at it long enough and you don't admit what's going on, it's bound to get to you.

SPEAKER_02 44:18

Yeah. I have people ask me, my kid thinking about becoming an EMT. And I'm like, don't do it. I'm like, just don't. But it's so seductive. It really is. Licensed iron plus that whole hero syndrome. Like when everybody's looking at you for the answer and it's like my cape. I'm here now. Alright, thanks for having me. This is great, good fun.

Mark 44:41

As we come to the end of today's episode, we want to leave you with this. There is no single path to recovery. For some, it's 12-step programs like Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous. Others find support through outpatient and inpatient treatment programs, individual and group therapy, religious communities, and other forms of spirituality, just to name a few. What matters most is finding a path that works for you, a reliable way out of the isolation of addiction, to reconnecting with yourself, your loved ones, your profession, and the world around you. If you're a healthcare professional in the Rochester area, we invite you to Healers Helping Healers, a confidential 12-step-based meeting every Tuesday evening at 6.30 for medical professionals who are in recovery or simply beginning to consider it. Go to recoveryrounds.com for more episodes, comments, and resources, and let us know if you'd like to share your own story of addiction and recovery. We'd love to have you on. Lastly, Recovery Rounds is supported by my practice, Mark Windsburg MD Medical Services, PLLC, where I provide private, discrete care for professionals seeking help with substance use. Thank you for listening. Until next time, keep showing up, keep reaching out, and remember, recovery is possible.