The Intelligence of the Body

EP 8 | What Separates Great Therapists From Great Leaders? | Diane Matkowski

• Paula Nutting

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 1:04:54

What does it take to build a thriving massage therapy career that lasts for decades? In this inspiring Ask Me Anything episode, Paula Nutting sits down with mentor, educator, and business owner Diane Matkowski to explore the lessons she's learned from nearly three decades in the profession.

From building an award-winning massage practice to mentoring therapists around the world, Diane shares the experiences, challenges, and mindset shifts that have shaped her journey. Together, Paula and Diane discuss leadership, professional growth, client relationships, mentorship, and the importance of creating a career that aligns with your values.

The conversation goes beyond business strategies and techniques to explore personal development, resilience, grief, intuition, and the role community plays in helping therapists grow both professionally and personally. Diane also shares insights from creating The Massage Mentor Institute and the globally recognized "Jams," which bring leading educators together to share knowledge and inspire the next generation of therapists.

This episode offers valuable wisdom for massage therapists, bodyworkers, clinic owners, students, and anyone looking to build a meaningful and sustainable career in the wellness profession.

In this episode:
• Building a successful massage therapy career over nearly 30 years
• The power of mentorship and lifelong learning
• Growing and managing an award-winning massage practice
• Leadership lessons for clinic owners and therapists
• Why listening is one of a therapist's greatest skills
• Preventing burnout and creating career longevity
• The importance of community within the massage profession
• Navigating grief, personal growth, and resilience
• Learning to trust intuition and embrace uncertainty
• How The Massage Mentor Institute and the "Jams" were created
• Why stepping through new opportunities can transform your career
• Creating a practice that reflects your values and purpose

Timeline Highlights:
00:35 – Paula introduces mentor and business owner Diane Matkowski.
02:55 – Diane shares her journey from solo therapist to clinic owner.
05:03 – Recognizing burnout and learning to delegate.
07:02 – Letting long-term clients transition to other therapists.
11:52 – How The Massage Mentor and mentoring journey began.
16:06 – Why listening is one of a therapist’s greatest skills.
18:21 – The pandemic, online education, and discovering new teachers.
20:10 – The inspiration behind creating the JAM events.
28:03 – Diane reflects on grief, loss, and personal growth.
30:34 – How service and helping others supported her healing.
40:02 – Taking opportunities and embracing calculated risks.
43:04 – Not every therapist needs to own a business.
45:07 – The importance of patience when developing new skills.
46:24 – A preview of the Back JAM and continuing education opportunities.
52:12 – Staying open, asking for help, and lifelong learning.
53:03 – Diane shares her vision for the future and finding peace.

🎥 Watch on YouTube
https://youtu.be/3A82YCP5l9c

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to follow the podcast, leave a review, share it with your colleagues, and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform.

Connect with Diane Matkowski:
🌐 https://themassagementor.com/
 📘 https://www.facebook.com/TheMassageMentor
 👥 https://www.facebook.com/groups/themassagementorclosedgroup/
 📸 https://www.instagram.com/themassagementor/
 💼 https://www.linkedin.com/in/diane-matkowski-32936911/
 🎥 https://www.youtube.com/@TheMassageMentor

Disclaimer:
The following program is for informational and educational purposes only. The content discussed regarding musculoskeletal health, injury recovery, and physical therapy techniques is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

Listening to this podcast does not establish a therapist-patient relationship between you and Paula or her guest presenter. Always seek the advice of your physician or another qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or physical injury.

If you think you may have a medical emergency, call your doctor or emergency services immediately. Reliance on any information provided in this podcast is solely at your own risk.

Therapist testimonial highlighting the value of Paula Nutting's Supercharged Therapist Group, mentorship, ongoing support, and professional guidance for therapists seeking continued growth and clinical confidence.

The Supercharged Therapist Method, ONLINE option to treat in ONE session what can take THREE or more

Paula Nutting talks about her educational journey and why it has made putting the technique of facilitating the Chapmans Reflexes so effective, powerful, and useful for any therapist whether you are a Massage Therapist, Myotherapist, Remedial Massage Therapist, and more!

If you are a massage therapist, myotherapist, or remedial massage therapist and been in the industry for less than five years then this message is for you!

Learn the Techniques that you might have not done yet like How to do your Muscle Energy Technique, How to do your Myofascial Release Technique and more. Learn from your peers and get valuable mentoring to become a fully booked massage, myotherapist, or remedial massage therapist. 

🎁 FREE Resources for Therapists

▶ Watch the FREE webinar:
https://vimeo.com/577539672?fl=pl&fe=sh

🎥 Watch therapist testimonials & clinical education content:

💡 Learn more about my Mentorship Programs & Therapist Training:
https://yourmusculoskeletalspecialist.com

🔗 Access all of my resources, courses, events & links in one place:
https://smartlink2.metricool.com/public/smartlink/paulanutting

📩 Got questions or want to collaborate?
paulanuttingyms@gmail.com

SPEAKER_02

Hey guys, it's Paula Nutting, your musculoskeletal specialist here, and it's our April Ask Me Anything hour where we get a chance to talk to some pretty amazing, spectacular people each month. And this month is no different. In fact, I'm kind of pretty more excited because I'm talking to another mentor, and mentorship seems to be the journey that more of us are trying to get on. So before me talking anything more about, I'm just going to bring Diane Matowski into the room so that you guys can meet her, we can find out more about her because she's normally the one who asks questions. So we've got some time to actually ask this wonderful human being some questions. So Diane, I'd love to see you, and the girls will bring you in.

SPEAKER_00

I don't know when that started.

SPEAKER_02

I normally see you at and I can't lie, I normally see you at about 5 30 in the morning when I get up to go somewhere and I'm sitting on the in the bathroom going through my stuff, just trying to wake the brain up. And then at 5 35 in the morning, it's a bit of a buzz, I'm gonna say. Yeah, love it, love it. Hey, um, give the people who don't know who you are a little bit of background about where you came from because we mostly know you from the uh the Massage Mentor Institute or from the interviews, but not many of us know who this young girl was before she started.

SPEAKER_00

So I've been a massage therapist and I have not taken a paycheck from any other business since 1996. So it's been a long time. Uh, and I love the industry. And at first I kind of worked on my own, uh, and I've worked for different establishments, and uh, you know, it was a much different time in 1996. You know, we used to ride our horses to tread through the snow. It was just kind of for me, it seemed like a much different time. So I was really lucky to get in uh early and uh just you know, really be a part of a really magnificent scene. I really feel like um I just was really blessed. So I I started 1996 and slowly uh it just turned out that I did really well. You know, I worked for other places and then I did out calls, and then I worked out of my home. All very valuable, uncomfortable lessons. I would say for me, working out of my home was I could only I could only see myself going so far. And when I came home and there was people waiting for me on my front stoop, I was like, ooh, ooh, so for me, get out of my house, and I'd have you know clients in the house and they're coming in and out, in and out, in and out, and when they'd leave their hair's a mess. I'm thinking, oh my god, I don't know what people are gonna think I'm doing anything. So I very quickly I opened up a place called Freedom Massage, which I picked out the name name in '96, and then uh I operated out of uh the second story of a house. Um the business grew and grew. Um, and then I took the whole house over, and that business grew and grew, and then I opened another location in the Malvern area, which is close to Philadelphia. So now it's home to 10 massage therapists. We won 10 awards for best massage in the Philadelphia area. A couple hundred clients a week, uh, and it's booked out until like June or July now. Wow. So you still work you still work hands-on, right? It's actually, I actually for me, uh it's interesting you bring that up because it's just been such a a time of change for me. And there there came a point for me where I realized that um after 25 years in the business with hands-on and trying to run a business, hire people, and do all these different things, I had to make a decision for myself to to realize that perhaps I was getting a little burnt out, just to be quite honest. Um, and and I doing everything was really hard. It was hard to be a manager, a massage therapist, a bookkeeper, and I really had to learn how to kind of let a lot go. Um, so now I have a manager that operates the business, and she's new eyes after 20 years, and she just sees things that I didn't see and is able to do things that I wasn't able to do because I was just in it for so long, building it from ground zero. I mean, we have over 10,000 clients that have been there now and just fresh eyes. And now I have someone that does my recruiting for to find therapist, and his fresh eyes are just like magnificent. I could just squeeze his face. I'm so thankful, you know. And then I have my bookkeeper, I have my accountant. So for me, now I just kind of an overseer, and with that, it's giving me opportunity to do some other things like the interviews and things that get me excited. I think that's why you see me going like this, because I'm like, yes, you know, I still need to be a part of by letting go and giving someone else the opportunity. I feel like the building, I got as much out of the building. I saw clients for a really long time. I love them and they love me, but it was time to pass the baton and give someone else a chance.

SPEAKER_02

How do you manage that? Because I know that there's a lot of therapists out there that go, oh, but I can't leave Betty not having me anymore because she loves me and she said that I can never stop ever working. Like, and we have people like that that would know them. I'll tell you that. How do you gracefully let them go?

SPEAKER_00

I'll tell you that I have clients that have followed me from 1998 that are still at Freedom Massage seeing staff. So for me, that is a huge honor. I I don't know how I've been so blessed, other than the fact that I'm a really good listener and I try to be really professional with clients and give them what they ask, you know, and and uh keep learning. And and when they walk into my door, they're the most important person in the whole wide world. The world stops, and the only thing that matters is them. Uh so I would say it it was an interesting thing, you know. Uh, but I just had to be honest with people and say, look, you know, you've been with me for 15 years, and it's time for a change, a change for me and a change for you. I think there's there's hands out there that would be even better for you than mine. And I would just hope that you would trust me enough and my ability to train other people, um, you know, that you'll find that you'll like me even more because you might like that better. You'll be like, why was I with Diane this whole time? When there's so many other, you know, when I get a massage, there's always something that I find each session. Before I might be a little more like kind of picky and picking apart, you know, it's hard as a massage therapist. Like, I should have done that. And I think then I got to the point where instead of seeing the differences, I saw the similarities. And instead of seeing the lesser strengths, I saw the strengths of each therapist. So for me now, I enjoy most massages, and there's something that each one of my staff members brings to the table that I didn't.

SPEAKER_02

Wow, that's such a strong statement because I go to uh a foot reflexology day spa thing because I won't, I I'm so picky on the table, and I think most of us are. You're on the table, you're going, Why are they doing that? It's like one job I said, don't play between my scapula stabilizers, they're weak anyway. And the first thing you're doing is ignoring me. Um, so that's yeah, well done. Well done to look at it.

SPEAKER_00

It wasn't an easy journey for me. Don't get me wrong. Because too, another thing is that I think we're all artists, and the best way for someone to find their way as a therapist, to truly find their way. Uh as a as a boss, I was like, this, this, you got to do this, this, this, this, this, and oh my god, why are you doing that? Ah, you know, there's so much of that. And I feel like to be a manager, a business owner, all those things, it's a process. It's a it's a find out what works, find out what doesn't work, but being willing and open to get feedback and and to be willing to keep changing. So for me, the body work and receiving it, I found, like I said, seeing the similarities instead of the differences and pointing out a strength every time I pointed out a lesser strength and finding ways to kind of support them in their process because there might be someone who gives a completely different session than I do, but still kind of somehow, I'm not sure. How do I all achieve a similar goal?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. So it's it's all internal. You're not actually saying that stuff while you're lying on the table, right?

SPEAKER_00

Uh it well, in the beginning, there was times when I was training therapists where they'd they'd start massaging me and I'd be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00

And I'd I'd actually stop them and I'd get off the table and I'd say, Why don't you get on the table so you can feel what I'm talking about? Uh so there's been different level different times in my life where I've done different things. And two, I I've kind of just listened to my gut with what to do in each space. But I do have to say that it's very rare that I don't find something that I really enjoy in a session.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's good. That's great. Because there's a lot of people out here who are massage therapists, remedial therapists, and my therapists, and we're all picky. As you said, we're artists. So we kind of go, that's not the that's not my color palette that I would use when I'm feeling the tension in this particular area. I would use this color palette. Uh, why are you using that? And instead of just going, stop it, you're doing the wrong palette, being open-minded and going, Well, what has that palette got left to offer me?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I just figure if I'm there, I'm supposed to be there. If they're there, they're supposed to be there. I'm on the table, right? And they're working on me. So maybe they know something that I don't know. Uh, maybe whatever got us both in that place at that time knows something more than I know. And there have been times I've walked away like, I don't think that was true, Diane. I feel a little uncomfortable after that session, but all in all, I do try to I try to find the the similarities and I try to see and allow them to express themselves as I like to be able to express myself. So is that why and how you started up the mentoring? The mentoring thing just kind of it was weird because when I first I was trained by a gentleman uh in '96 who was a massage therapist in the 80s. I mean, so what a blessing that was. Uh, and uh he just always said, I think something you're gonna mentor people. And so when I picked the name the massage mentor, I was almost like, oh god, this is like, oh, that's kind of pompous, almost. Are you sure you want to do that? But for me, it was something that I had been called my since uh the beginning, and I just felt like for me, it symbolizes the fact that I didn't do anything alone. Life was kind of like a wee program. Uh, and the more I asked for help, uh, the more that I grew. And the less uh I was like, I know, and said, maybe I don't. Um, maybe I could, you know. So for me, the mentoring piece and and and calling uh that out or bringing that to the table for me meant that I would hope that therapists out there realize I didn't do it alone. I did have help, and I've had a million mentors, and I don't remember what your question was specifically.

SPEAKER_02

Because you were so good at finding the value of other therapists. I like it. That may not don't do a re record rewind because that may not have been exactly the question either.

SPEAKER_00

So I like I said, and two, just having you know people come in to work with me.

SPEAKER_02

Uh yeah, and you're mentoring them. You like on the table, okay. I'm just gonna get off the table. I'm gonna get you to feel what this feels like to me. So that's your intuitive practices to assist.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, and like I said, from person to person, year to year, uh, that process has kind of changed for me on on how I handle things. Now I'm a little quieter and I have uh easier conversations, but also to the schooling that people are receiving, they're coming out of school with a lot more knowledge than they had before, I think.

SPEAKER_02

Wow, it's maybe maybe there in Australia. It's been dumbed down. Don't tell anyone, but to through like when I because I did my course like the same time as you, like 1994. I did my first um 10-week Wednesday night sessions with a doctor who is a Chinese doctor who also did massage therapy. We went through the process, and at the last the last of the sessions, he had just a few tea light candles and we had to treat it almost in the dark. So we had to actually work out where our hands were. Then went to and did the two-year, four semester full-time diploma where we had loads and loads and loads and loads of orthopaedic assessment skills and stuff like that. Nowadays, they get just it's it's not even the cream on the top, it's just it's the chaff that falls at the bottom of a of a food bag. It's not not strong stuff at all here. So that's why mentoring is so important for us here is because they come out of college going, Well, I know we call it BAM, bare ass minimum. I like that. I'm gonna jot that down. Bam. Courtesy of uh some friends of mine when they used to be. But they need some help and they need some guidance, and they need it. I always found like all in one place, you can get a little bit of this and a little bit of that, a little bit of that, and a whole lot of choice.

SPEAKER_00

I I I feel for me personally, I found that I I can't change someone's personality, but I can always help them with their body work. Um, also, I can just give them uh a little help too with key phrases or things that they could do to keep people interested in coming back and listening skills. But I I feel like a lot of times the people at least that we've been attracting lately, uh just we've gotten really lucky with people that have really good hands. And like I said, and as I feel like if they have a good personality, I can I can work with that.

SPEAKER_02

I can work with it. So people skills, that's what we're doing first and foremost.

SPEAKER_00

Listen, listen, please listen, please listen. I I think that that is probably well one of the things that helped me build the business to the point that it is now, and why we've won best in Philly 10 times or however many times it's been, and why people have been coming to me since 1998, uh, is because they felt heard, they felt like my focus was just on them. And uh I I think that goes really far because I think in society in general, everybody wants to kind of be heard, and a lot of people don't feel heard.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so true, so true. And I'm gonna go out on a limb up having a chat to some pretty clever people like Whitney Lowe, uh included, um, that just the act of being present and listening is enough to start their own healing cycle or the reduction of the cascade of the of the anxiety, if nothing else.

SPEAKER_00

I think I think from I always tell my therapist to be at the door, ready to go, and and the greeting is a is a big thing. And when someone comes in, you never you never know where they're coming from. You never know what their experience has been before they got there. So I've had a lot of people, you know, that appreciate that I point out where everything is and I give a little mini tour of the facility and it's clean, it's there's not a lot of clutter. And here's the bathroom, here are the four other treatment rooms, here's where we're gonna do this, here's where we're gonna do that. So by the time they get to their massage room, you know, they have a real good feel of how things operate and where they are and where the doors are and whatever else they need to do. So for me, uh that's how I I like to start is making sure they feel at home and they kind of have a feel for the lay of the land. Um you show them the exit doors, and then if the oxygen needs to come down. That's right. That's right. Just put it on, put yours on first and and we'll we'll figure it out.

SPEAKER_02

So yeah, yeah. But that's that's probably why they do it too. It's it's like it gets you centered and grounded into the experience.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. I I I'm a big believer in that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I was gonna I was gonna ask you about oh, so how did you get into the jams? The jams, uh, well, so when the pandemic hit, uh, I think that was a a huge whoa for me. Uh you figure uh I I definitely had never been shut down. Um, and we were shut down for three months. So backtrack a little before that, you know. I'm training my head's down. I'm not really, I didn't really know all this was out there. I didn't know there was Paula nutting. I didn't know that all these people were kind of out there. I really didn't. I was just had my head down. I was building my business and taking care of business. That's all I was doing. And uh so, you know, the pandemic hit and I was like, wow. So I was just training my therapist, showing them everything that I had learned. And uh I started to feel like I'm running out of stuff, you know. These these therapists are they're outgrowing me. Like, what am I supposed to do? There's like, you know, so I I did. I started kind of looking online more and getting to know a little bit more online. I started doing the interviews, and as I was interviewing people, I started to realize there was this whole beautiful world of experience out there, and I couldn't believe it. Uh, I was just really blown away by some of the teachers and what they did and their techniques, and there's this like whole world out there. So, one of the things, you know, that one of my therapists came to me is like, my shoulder, my shoulder, my shoulder. I was like, you know, as I started building my following with the interviews and I started going online and doing all these things during the pandemic because I was like, I gotta figure something out to do. And uh I I mentioned it to a couple of my colleagues. Uh I'll just shout them out. One was the rebel massage, uh, rebel massage, Allison Denny, and then Till Luca. Uh, and I said, you know, I have this idea. You know, I've been trying to teach people about the shoulder for years, and I'm out of stuff. So, how cool would it be if you had all the big names in the industry, uh, all these teachers focus on one body part? Because everyone probably has a little different twist, like we were saying, like I tried to learn how to enjoy all the sessions, all the different kinds of work because all together, imagine all together, those 10 different people focused on one body region, what the chances are of figuring out a way to be helpful. So I I mean, I told Till and I told the rebel, and they were like, that is a great idea. So I I said, I think I'm gonna try it, you know, and and that's the thing too. I I I think that sometimes we have ideas and and uh we get afraid that it's not gonna work, and and we don't we don't try them. And uh, like I said, when I started my page and I declared myself the massage mentor, I was very uncomfortable. Uh, I have 67, 6800 massage therapists on the page now. Uh it's been a couple years and it just grows and grows. I handpick everyone coming in. If you're not a massage therapist, you don't answer yes, you don't do the questions, you don't get in. So for me, it was just uh just listening to doing the next right thing. So the shoulder jam, I was like, please, I hope that we get like 50 sign-ups, please. We had people from all hundreds and hundreds of students sign up, people from all over the world, and uh it's just a if you haven't been to a jam, I have to say it's a really good time because what happens is you get these teachers who all know each other and kind of watch each other from afar, you know. Yeah, they all are definitely bringing their A game, you know. So you have Tom Myers and Till and Whitney and all. These great, great minds coming together, James Waske, Judith Aston, Paul Kelly. So all these masterminds coming together and just showing that one body part. And that doesn't mean too that they're just focusing on the shoulder. Because as we know, it's not always the area that you can. So I so again, it's just been mind-boggling to me how much it's grown. Uh, I wish more people knew about it, just because it's like the only other thing I'll say about it too, is it's like getting 10 classes in one. Because if you had to go see Tom Myers, Eric Dalton, and then you had to go see Whitney and all these teachers, that would be a lot of classes and a lot of money.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, a lot of travel.

SPEAKER_00

A lot of trouble. Just streamlined and readily available to the community. And I think the teachers are really excited about it because it helps people find them. And then I'll just stop with this because I get really excited. Is you get to see the personality of each person, too. So there's going to be certain personalities that you're drawn to more than others, certain techniques. So it's almost like a showcase of everyone's work. Um, and that brings me joy because I wish 10 years ago there was something like that for me, because it took me 25, 20 years to find everybody, to sort it all out, and then to kind of put it together. Now it's all put together for therapists, uh, and it's really easy to find some really great teachers. And I hope to keep bringing that up forward for the community.

SPEAKER_02

So, how amazing is those little good, little gold that comes out of the big pulp of the pandemic.

SPEAKER_00

I some people kind of froze up, and I just I I literally built the Massage Mentor Institute from ground zero and added classes from the rebel. Some of the teachers were in a panic because they couldn't go live. So, and James Wosowski has shared this live, and he shared it when he accepted my uh my me going into the massage hall of fame, uh, that he was just beside himself because he had he does classes all around the world all year long, and all of a sudden everything was shut down. So I was able to get up uh 26 hours of classes for him. So he was able to generate an income during the pandemic. So it just kind of yeah, it just kind of all fell into place, and then the the jams happened, and a lot of people were home and were dying for some interaction.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It was it was it was such an interesting interesting time. That's when I actually started my mentorship um program as well, was with the pandemic, and this that's when I actually started these because I went, how am I going to um connect and still add value when because we are value-based, that's we try to give. And like I can't give if I can't treat. In Bruce in Queensland, we had easier rules. I think we're out for six weeks, but in Melbourne, um, some of that they were out for a couple of years, like they just that the borders were shut for you know months and months and months and months and months. They weren't allowed to do anything. Uh but to to I I contacted, I think I contacted a few people that I know, so I contacted James Wazowski quite early and said, Can I, are you interested in could we maybe do? And he was like, Yeah, sure. So then I went, shit, all right. And then I went so then I said to Eric Dalton, hey Eric, I was talking to James and I did this thing with him, and would you be interested? He said, Yeah, sure. It was a good time. It was like the perfect time, right? Yeah, yeah. So I've had these wonderful people that I have actually met a couple of times before, either in conferences and and stuff like that. But everyone's been so gracious. And what talking about James, he actually his whole life is presenting. Uh, we were teaching in a course together in Canada, and we're sitting down with uh beautiful Susan. Oh, I've talked to her too, she's pretty damn cool. No, another one from uh Susan, I'll remember her name in a minute. She's a researcher from um Canada, and we were just talking about how you know drawing all over the table with with whiteout and pens and stuff. And um, he said he teaches 48 weekends a year. It's like, whoa.

SPEAKER_00

And to go from that to nothing, uh, you know, it was really hard on a lot of people. So I just always, you know, try to turn that crown upside down. I was like, I was just trying to think of ways that I could be helpful. And and really, like I said, the jams, the interviews, the jams, the institute, it was all just kind of like perfect timing. It was all those guys were kind of like it's harder to to pin them down now because they're all back to live classes and in their routines. But at that time, everyone was kind of yeah, it is more tricky to get people.

SPEAKER_02

I do have to say that as well. Um, guys, don't forget that this is an open um chat option. So if you've got any questions that you want to ask Diane, then this is the perfect time to throw them in the chat box in the comment section. So just add comments, and as we see them, if you've got some some gorgeous ones or some some what you think is boring, nothing's boring, nothing's wrong. Um, we'd love to hear from you. I know that Tammy McCrew was was doing a big thumbs up that you're on. Um Bruce Boltz was like, oh my god, this is gonna be cool. Like, so there's there's some big hitters out there that I'd love to. Um, I'm gonna ask something while we're waiting. I remember you going through, like I was trying to get hold of you a couple of quite a few months ago, and you had um you lost your dad?

SPEAKER_00

I lost my I did. I lost my dad and I also lost my marriage. So it was a really uh it was a really big year for me. Uh actually it's been a big couple years for me. Uh I so yeah, a lot going on.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, how did you keep all the balls in there at that time? Because there's a lot on your plate throwing the mentorship, the jams, and the institute.

SPEAKER_00

It was, it's been, like I said, really interesting to say the least. Uh, I think it's probably been the biggest gross spurt of my existence on planet earth. You know, I I've chosen to turn pain into passion, but you don't just go like that. So grief is kind of a weird thing. You don't there's no control over it. You don't get to decide when you just break down in tears, and you don't get to decide when you feel a little better. It's just almost like you have to kind of go with the flow of it. So I think actually the massage community was very gracious and kind of I'll get a little emotional, kind of saved my life. You know, a lot of these gentlemen showed up for me and these ladies, you know, checking on me, making sure I was okay. Um, I did still try to do some interviews and stuff, but uh just the community just really kind of came around me, which was actually really nice. Um, so yeah, it was definitely tricky. How I kept all the balls in the air, I just I feel like you know, you have to sometimes maybe give your uh uh a brain a break. I always say if you live from here up, you're kind of not in reality. So if you're upset about the past or you're looking at the future, then you're not in the present, you're not in the now. So uh that's where the magic happens. So for me, just doing things to get myself back in the now and get myself uh focused on what was right in front of me was important sometimes, you know.

SPEAKER_02

So starting to getting out, can you like I suppose COVID was clear enough at that stage that you could actually exit your your I did?

SPEAKER_00

I got to do, you know, I did what I call my mini mic tours. I went all over the place and saw you know Benny Vaughn. I went to James's place, you know. I got to travel with Eric Dalton. Uh, I went to see Till. You know, I've gotten to go over to California to see The Rebel. So you went over to Aubrey. I went over to Aubrey in Ireland. So that that was how I kind of got through a lot of that. I did a lot of traveling and uh I did a lot of service uh I call service work, you know, where you try to help others. I think that that's the most healing for thing for me is helping other people. Uh, because it feels good to help other people. And if you're in a funk, I don't think there's any better way to get out of it than see uh your work bringing smiles to other people's faces. Uh so for me, that was a huge motivation. It it just it's nice to be helpful, so so it really helped get me through. And then I was up in Maine for six months, uh just you know, cleaning out my dad's house, and then that's a different level because I was in the middle of the wilderness for six months. The driveway was two miles long, and um, you know, just going through all my dad's belongings and uh, you know, playing the role of you know, cleaning that out and doing that alone. I chose to do that alone, and again, you know, just learned a lot. I don't feel like the same person. Uh so grief has been hard, but I think again, it's just kind of a blessing in some weird way. I don't know if you can get to that place where you're so put in the now and so you have to deal with it. There's there's no way around it, I feel like. So I'm a big fan of um growth. Yeah, and uh grief is a very interesting way to grow. Uh, and you can stay in it as long as uh you wander as long as you need, but too, you know, I found but like just trying to stay focused on on the now was really helpful for me.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and you gotta you you've got to be able to accept uh other people's gifts of wanting to give to you as well. But I find that that sometimes you can box yourself into grief and then own it and like I don't want anyone to come in there, which I think stops your development because that comes into here again.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I don't hear up. You can live lifetimes from here up, you know. But for me, I've really tried to stay in my body and I realize the work, I don't mean to be cheesy, but the work I do on myself, right? The work on my I do on myself is important because it helps the group. So the best way I can do help the group is to to work on myself because then I'm just a better person, a better member of society and helpful. So if I work on my grief, I let people help me, I help others and let that spin through me, then I am uh I am helping the group. Um so that's really been helpful to me too, just to realize that I'm not I'm not alone and the work that I'm doing on myself, whether it's seen or unseen, is valuable to everyone.

SPEAKER_02

So if anyone has got grief, aside from contacting Beyond Blue and all of those other other support groups, um and this is a bit in the head thing. Did you do you find that you have to schedule that time? Otherwise, you're too busy looking after other people?

SPEAKER_00

Uh for me, it was it just when I was in Maine for six months by myself, I I just kind of let it unravel. You know, I I feel like uh I didn't necessarily I didn't have as much of a schedule, and I was I was really busy working, but I was also a busy uh morning and uh having conversations that I needed to have with my father, and I had the space to do that. For me, doing that alone, uh the benefit of that was I didn't have anyone, I didn't have to worry about anyone but myself. So I felt like I feel like I learned the difference between loneliness and isolation and solitude. I do think solitude, there's some things one of my teachers said to me, there's some things you can only do alone, Diane. And uh I feel like for me, I I I learned that as as well. And that doesn't mean when you're doing those things alone that you don't accept support and you don't ask for support. It just means that there are things that you can only do uh alone. And uh there have been group growth spurts for me there.

SPEAKER_02

That and that all beautifully said, because I think like there's so many people I've spoken to this year that have had major grief, yeah. And a lot of it is with the um what we've got going on with with post-COVID or long COVID now that there's more research in there. Um John Sharkey's just dropped out another paper on on how to treat he is the absolute bomb. He's actually one of the first people who who graciously gave me his time. But the time zones between you guys and the UK and Australia are crazy. So it's just yeah, for me to try to get a couple of people together is like hurting cats.

SPEAKER_00

It's definitely hurting cats, and I think too, one of the things with with grief, uh, if it goes along with death or you know, it goes along with death or loss, and it's like I I've heard it compared to uh like uh like jumping out of a plane, you know, there's that rush where you're completely out of control and you're pushed in the nail as your face is going and you're going down to the ground, you know. I think that some of these things that happen to us in this grief, they really do throw you into the moment and you gotta choose what you want to do with that. Uh, and I think, like I said, uh it's a great experience just to allow yourself to feel your feelings. That's how I've built my business. I've built my business by doing the next right thing and feeling my feelings, and and if I'm uncomfortable doing it anyway, and just trying my best to be helpful and be a good person, really.

SPEAKER_02

And I think that's intuition as well when you start talking about am I doing it right anyway, and you go, Oh, hang on, there's so many warning bells going off here that I do not want to be in this space, and it's got nothing to do with grief, but it could be with a client or a patient, and you're going I love that.

SPEAKER_00

That's something I've been thinking about, Paula, is the bells going off. When the bells are going off and you feel uncomfortable, then you don't have to do it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. It's step back.

SPEAKER_00

Probably, yeah, just take a pause, take a minute, and uh, if that doesn't go away, there might be a reason why it's not going away. It might not be the place for you.

SPEAKER_02

So they're talking about the the cells that like the the emotional brain cells, you you've that brain, heart, gut. So, you know, we sit there and you'll go, Oh, this just doesn't feel right in my gut, or my heart is exploding with emotional, you know, love or or whatever, like generally love. Um, your gut feels like you're gonna throw up. Like there's so many things you just gotta listen to your body and get out of your freaking head.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, it really uh, like I said, you could stay in your head and you can live a month, you can live a week in like a second. That's how disturbing uh the reality of your mind is. Uh living a month and a second, or living through an experience in a couple seconds, uh is you know, it's just not reality. And I don't know about you, but I've never predicted what's gonna happen. I've I've never seen it clearly. I've had a general idea, but I've never I'm usually pleasantly surprised by the future. I've never really been able to write it.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, that's a great question. Or change it. Predicted. Yeah, you can never predict you can't ever change it. Once you're on that roller coaster, you're on the roller coaster. I think you've got the opportunity to work out whether you can put the brakes on a little bit every now and then, but you have a better response, you've got a better chance of going, am I gonna step on that roller coaster? Oh, hang on a minute, the merry-go-round is just there. I might get on the merry-go-round and and kind of just take it easy and watch the roller coaster and see if that looks too out of my depth.

SPEAKER_00

I had I have a friend that said to me, Diane, you you open the gate and you see the roller coaster, and you you do, you get to decide if if you want to go on in. And a lot of us know when it when that roller coaster is there, if we're paying attention, you know. So, like I said, for me, more and more, it's just about being in the moment and realizing that the the future isn't here and the past, I can't, there's literally nothing I can do about it. I can create a better future by just being present.

SPEAKER_02

But you also have to have the capacity, and this is what you do, and um, there's a few of us out there, there's there's lots of people who don't do this. They walk past an open door, and they're not prepared to, you know, they're not prepared to do that. They're not prepared to stick their head in and have a look. Because if you hadn't stuck your head in through the door, you wouldn't have the jams. If you hadn't stuck your head through the door, you wouldn't have the mentorship. If you had to hadn't stuck your head through the door, there'd be you wouldn't have your your the the 10 wins fulfilled.

SPEAKER_00

Wonderful, wonderful people that I work with. That's one other thing. I again my clients have been some of my greatest teachers, people around me, greatest teachers. I had a gentleman sit in my lobby and he said, Diane, if you said, you know, gazillionaire, Diane. If there's a doorway, you just have to walk through it. Just walk through it. If you see a doorway, walk through it. And uh whether no matter what my frame of mind or how I feel, usually I walk through the door. You can always turn around, but you don't know what you don't know till you know. Yeah, and the only way you know is to take risks.

SPEAKER_02

And it's the most salient lesson for people who are out there listening who are going, should I expand my business or should I not? Oh, I don't really take the get out of your head, take a small step and go, am I put my my gorgeous friend of mine, Ross Upley Moore, used to say, pull your big girl panties up and step in and try. Because if it doesn't, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But if you have never tried it, you never know. And like you would have been that one person working in your home space if you had to try all the stuff you tried.

SPEAKER_00

I did, I I did when I took over when I I started my business. I was just on the second floor of an establishment. I had a massage table, I didn't have any furniture, I had nothing. I had nothing, and uh I didn't I didn't go and buy a bunch of stuff and I didn't invest in someone else's building, it wasn't my building. So I I painted, he paid for the paint, things like that. You know, I wasn't gonna redo and do all these things, and I wasn't gonna pay for things until I had the money. The most important thing when you do massage is having a massage table. So I had a massage table, and as I could, I add it and I add it, and then I got it humming on the second floor, and I I took my time doing that, and then the first floor opened up, and I thought, hmm, can I do the first floor? And uh, I remember my stepmom who passed on in 2010. She came in and she said, if you don't try this, you're never gonna know if you could have done it. So you gotta try it. But again, taking on the whole building initially might have been too much for me. So again, it's just being practical, knowing what you're dealing with, knowing your area, knowing the cost, knowing how many people that uh in the area might want massages and all that kind of stuff. So it's for me mindfully doing things, but also being willing to take risks.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, don't be timid. Don't be timid when you like, yeah, because I know so many people out there who have got the skills and you know, that whole build it and it will come. Like, I mean, obviously, don't go out of your financial depth, like you're saying. Don't build by the whole building and work out that you're you know you're in the worst area on the planet and no one has massages because there's 14 other people who are fabulous and they've been you know experienced there forever. But you know, use a little bit of don't be don't be scared as new practitioners to step a little bit out of your comfort zone because there are people like Diana, there are people like me that are out there who uh will happily give you a little bit of a nudge for to help you on your journeys.

SPEAKER_00

Like one of the things, too, that I just want to say this is one of my things right now, is not everybody's built to own their own massage business or even their own practice. There are people out there that do really well working with or for someone, and that doesn't make a massage therapist any less than or not as brilliant, it just makes uh that massage therapist know where they want to be. And I think that that's a shame uh that's kind of been happening is the community base. So I don't like working alone. I didn't like working alone. That's why I create a freedom massage because I would just sit and wait for my next client, I'd massage them, they'd be the next client, and I was and now we have this team of people that we can run things by, we can talk about. So I feel like one of the things that I really like is it's a community based thing. Uh, I I would prefer that it was all run by massage therapists. I think other people kind of gotten involved, but I I believe that there's different, there's a place for everyone and No place is wrong. And I would hope that some of the people that want to be leaders and and want to run massage massage businesses would remember that they were a massage therapist and treat their their staff with the respect that they wanted.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And also the the other part of that is if um like for for us, I don't know about you guys over there, and I'm not sure globally, but I think you do have massage therapists in hospital situations, hospices and so on. It's not huge here in Australia, but it's starting to, and especially for uh oncology and for pediatrics. So if that if you kind of finish college and you that's where your dream is, then start adding the building blocks. Do that course on oncology or do do a peed specialty or whatever it takes, and then move through that journey. So don't be scared that because there's not a lot of people in that industry, that you can't be in that industry because you you can.

SPEAKER_00

And I I feel like too, that one of the things that just like bounced in my head as you were saying that is be patient with yourself. Uh, I think uh, you know, people will take a class and they're like, oh my god, you know, and it takes a long it for most of us in order to really dive into a technique or really learn something, it takes time. And I see a lot of therapists take a class here, take a class here, take a class there, take a class there. And it's just like maybe just give yourself a second to really enjoy the last class.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. Do you know that you made me think I used to teach aerobics full-time for five years, so we'd do 20, 25 classes a week, which was crazy. But we'd go into a uh a Fire Lex fitness weekend, and you'd learn all these new techniques great vines, 3D repeater, double twist, double twist, up like this, and you'd bring it and put it all into the first class. You had people falling over and standing in the corner going, What the hell are you doing to me? This is like I've never seen this. So get once you've learnt the shoulder jam, and I think your next one is the back jam.

SPEAKER_00

We've done the shoulder jam, we've done the hip jam, we've done the neck jam. We did another course called the inside job. Um we're doing the back jam. Uh it's Mondays in May. So Mondays in May is the back jam, and it's like next week, guys. It's like really, it's really creeping up. And like I said, there's I don't know, there's just nothing, I don't mean to be, but there's nothing like it. It's just a really great time. And uh one of the things that I like about it too is you know the teachers present, and then there's a live QA. So you can ask some questions right away when you're live, and then at the end of the day, they all get back together and there's another QA. So you get to ask some questions. We do a pre a pre-game warm-up uh where we give do giveaways, and then the last day, the 22nd of May, all the teachers get together and we do another QA. So there's a lot of interaction with the teachers. That again, maybe in a live class, you wouldn't be able to definitely get all of them together, and it's really fun to watch them kind of uh talk at with each other, and it's beautiful. I think the most beautiful part is watching them compliment each other, watching them say, Wow, you know, I really love what you did, and it's uh for me that brings me a lot of joy.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, that it's absolutely perfect. We're slightly unlucky here because I think the time zones are like terrible for us in Australia. So um, there's an option for people to register and then do the recordings.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, the recordings you have lifetime access to. So once you sign up for a gym, you have the recordings for life, just because we know learning takes time.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

One of the things that I found another reason that I was inspired by this is my manager now. She, when the pandemic was happening, watched James's class in the Massage Mentor Institute. And so she would play, rewind, play, rewind, play, rewind. And she was a therapist for about a year and a half. And by doing that and having the videos at her fingertips where it could really sink in, honest to God. Her name is Eugenia. She is my manager, she's been a therapist for just a few years, and she has the hands of someone that's been doing massage for 20 years. So she really showed me because I was very against the online thing. I was like, who teaches massage online? That's I was so mad about it. I really was. And then now that I'm helping the community have it, I'm seeing that. Well, it's true when you're in a class, and I love live classes, I would never stop going to live classes, but you can rewind and watch again, watch again, watch again, and really learn the techniques at your own pace. So that's again another bonus that I I like about them. And then, like I said, if you want to grow more and do more with those teachers, you can go live or or take their classes or whatever you decide.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, which is a good point. We I do uh I'm lucky enough to work with Club Physio, which is a Canadian, sorry, Canadian, uh a South African physiotherapy education center. So a handful of times, probably six times a year, um, they get me to do a three-hour webinar. But like there's webinars and there's webinars. And that's that's you know, when you're on there and you talk about, you know, where are you from? I'm from Azerbaijan, I'm from Namibia, I'm from you know, Ireland, I'm from South Africa, I'm from Joe Burg, wherever. But gosh, like I've seen some terrible three-hour, just horrible presentations. And we've tweaked them up so that everything's got that it's all interactive. So you're sitting there, but uh after about 15 minutes, I've got you standing up and doing a before and an after. So you can feel the difference between it like some kind of action modality that we're doing, otherwise it's boring as get out, and then they get the videos. So you've got you've gotta have quality for someone who's not got hands-on. You can't replace hands-on with something that's a PDF, right?

SPEAKER_00

And I I will say that uh the you know, with the name the jams, the reason they're called jams is you have a you know, when you're jamming music, you know, you have a bunch of different everyone's kind of doing their thing, and uh and they all come together and and they make music together, and but everybody kind of is still doing their own thing. So we actually did if you want to see some of these teachers dance, they want to dance because I play music and stuff, and it is awesome. Uh, you know, and uh so you know, I'm just saying, you know, there are ways to have a good time online and uh, you know, just like I said, really get to know the personalities of the different teachers. Is Eric Dolphin gonna be taking pulling out his drum kit? Uh Eric Dolton is not on the he's not gonna be at the uh neck jam, but he has been at the three pre he's been at the hip jam and the um uh hip jam and the neck jam, but he won't be at the back jam is what I meant.

SPEAKER_02

So I think he's got his Oklahoma one coming on pretty much soon.

SPEAKER_00

He does, he does in June, yes.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, no, no, that's oh damn it. I was kind of getting a bit excited. I was gonna try to not that I can do any drumming at all. Rulers and a massive table. There's your drumming. Oh, biggest life lesson that you've learned. I know this is a big call to throw something out. So biggest life lesson you've learned for your client base.

SPEAKER_00

Uh I think uh I think to remain open. And uh my father used to always say, the more you know, the less you grow. Uh I know that's kind of like backwards, it almost seems, but just staying open to maybe the possibility that I'm not sure I might not know. Um is actually probably been one of the greatest life lessons and just trying to listen. But I think that my business has survived for 25 years, and I've gotten to do a lot of things that I've gotten to do because I try to stay open and uh I'm not afraid to ask for help.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, wow. So we've got a couple of minutes left. What's the next 25 years hold for Diane Metal? What did you say? Mad Cow ski? Matt Cowski could ski.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, Matt had a cow that could ski because I was there's a story behind that, but what do I see for the next 25 years? Yeah. I hope to be somewhere really cozy and peaceful. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02

That's not at the end of 25 years, sister, during the next 25 years.

SPEAKER_00

I feel like I feel like my you know, like my ongoing goal is peace. You know, I just want peace. Um, and I I I want to learn how to be more peaceful and help the people around me be peaceful. I I don't always do a great job at it, but it it definitely is kind of uh what I what my dream is is to just keep feeling more at peace.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's beautiful. That is actually a really, really lovely comment because it's something that you don't kind of think of. People are showing that, well, I'm gonna build a business and I'm gonna go global and then yeah, we're gonna be going to Mars in the next 25 years. So I plan to to get the courses out to the Martians, and you know, it's like I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

It's uh like I I did do the inside job, and for me, life's really an inside job. I don't that's just how I feel, and I'm just really happy to be on planet Earth. I don't mean to sound silly, but and and have this human experience and have an opportunity to grow, have an opportunity to to fuck up, excuse my mouth, and have to gill on one of these before. There was lots of and have and have the opportunity to make mistakes and learn from them. I mean, it's just like you said, and some of the hardest, most embarrassing parts of my life have been some of my greatest teachers, the hardest clients, my most difficult clients have been my greatest teachers, you know. So it's uh it's just a cool journey. Uh sometimes it doesn't feel that way, but if I can wait just one second past the minute I'm gonna give up, it usually gets better.

SPEAKER_02

You got that, guys. That's that's another pearl. If you wait one second longer than when you were going to give up, yeah. And I think that's the whole thing, the darkest hours before the dawn, you know, like that's all that all those things have been used for reasons. Part of the darkest before the dawn is when there's the least amount of oxygen. I'm an old registered nurse, and we we'd see a lot of the little old people would die at that hour before dawn because it's just where that there's the lowest amount of oxygen if you're frail, and that's why they used to take all the flowers out of the out of the rooms in the hospitals at nighttime because they're competing weirdly.

SPEAKER_00

So I I I think with one of my I have some favorite sayings that nice time takes time, yeah. And uh I always will go because I'll I want to do sometimes. I want to do something about something, you know, and I just keep going, wait for it, wait for it, and there's a huge power in pausing. Uh, I don't always do it perfectly, and when I don't, I can see now the little chaos and mess I make, you know, but just create instead of react and all that beautiful stuff. You know what else is one of my favorites? I'm gonna give you a couple favorites, yes. Please. Does it need to be said? Does it need to be said by me? And does it need to be said right now? It's one of my favorites that has saved my life. Uh, but again, do I do it perfectly? Absolutely, positively not. You could ask anyone on my staff.

SPEAKER_02

Does it need to be said?

SPEAKER_00

Does it need to be said by me? And does it need to be said right now?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, right now.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, just really slows me down, and I I have to say I'm sorry a lot less when I when I do that.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, yeah, yeah. That's I've got goosebumps, and I have times I fuck up when I just go and I go, Oh, I'm so sorry. That was straight. That was yeah, the intent was wrong.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, and again, like I said, I'm surrounded by my staff, is very honest, my manager is very honest, and you know, I've learned a lot by uh not slowing down. And you know, some of my mentors, like Till Luca, I call him the space between the notes, you know, and his way, he you know, he's very thoughtful. And uh, I've learned a lot by just trying my best to kind of slow down and be present and honor others and uh not be reactive but be creative.

SPEAKER_02

Well, you've had some brilliant people to have can to talk about as mentors and and to be honored, like just some of those amazing people that you've driven to Ruth Werner's place and chilled out with her for a while.

SPEAKER_00

And I have to say, all the industry leaders are just great people. I haven't met someone that whose heart's really not in it, and uh and the the other group of my greatest hands-down teachers are are my staff and my clients, you know, everyone that's ever worked for me and anyone that might work for me or with me, I like to say. I just I mean, there's just so much to learn.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, they're sharing your journey, aren't they?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, it's really humbling.

SPEAKER_02

And on those beautiful notes, we're just a couple before the hour. So I'm gonna let you, unless you've got any more pearls to offer up. Yeah, like you kiss your mother with that mouth. You know, that's what I was saying. I can say thank you so much. It's been thank you. Such a pleasure, such a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00

Pleasure, pleasure chatting with you, and and thank you for your patience and perseverance. Uh, and uh thank you for all you're doing for the community. It's great to have someone else out there doing interviews and putting their own twist on things. So I appreciate what you're doing, and I appreciate you inviting me on.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I'm hoping that people will listen to this on the podcast and the vodcast uh and go, Well, I might, I might actually put my head through the door or or I might do I need to say it now. Like just some of those rewind, play, rewind, play. I'm sure that they'll get people to listen to this and they will get loads out of it. So that's what it's here for.

SPEAKER_00

There's so much the business beyond business, and there's so much the massage beyond techniques. Uh, and it's just like I said, it's one of the greatest classrooms to be in our industry. Uh yeah, exactly. Our pace is really good.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, nice.

SPEAKER_00

Well, on that, Diane Mapas.

SPEAKER_02

I say thank you again, guys. Don't forget it'll be uh over with uh Diane. I'm gonna toss it to her. I'm gonna have it on my website, your musculoskeletalspecialist dot com.com, isn't it terrible?com. Um, and we will see you next month, hopefully, with somebody really cool. I'm trying to get John Sharky and Joan Averson back as a duet again. So pretty tricky, tricky to get together, but we're gonna try. Uh thank you again. See you guys. Bye.