Episode 0.125: America on Hold

Welcome to Episode 0.125. It’s an impromptu addition to our prequel series, where we decided to turn the psychiatric lens on ourselves. We noticed in our text thread we were all having interesting reactions about finally putting our work out into the world, and the only logical next step was to put ourselves on the couch and let the shrinking begin. This process brought up some interesting themes around narcissism, imposter syndrome, and inadequacy. Yes, shrinks work through all of that too. So, join us as we explore our thoughts and feelings surrounding the soft launch, in real time. Because in psychiatry, it's all grist for the mill, and sometimes we also need our own time on the couch.

Deeper Learning Points

• “Grist for the Mill”
  • A metaphor for therapeutic material coined by therapy giant Dr. Irvin Yalom
• Overton Effect: A thing we plan to trademark
• 🧰 Overview Effect: A repeat from episode 0
• Overton Window
  • Per Wikipedia, “The Overton window is the range of subjects and arguments politically acceptable to the mainstream population at a given time”
• Self-disclosure
  • Self disclosure refers to how much we reveal about ourselves to our patients. We try to be intentional about it as the therapeutic setting is a unique environment and relationship wherein the exploration of the psyche is inherently more one-sided. Historically, therapists were supposed to be a “blank slate“, but even Freud let his patients into his personal life at times, and it is important for us to consider when this may or may not be therapeutic, and what the risks and benefits of self disclosure may be.
  • A major premise of the show Shrinking is exploring the different perspectives that the therapist characters have on self disclosure and just how rigid or permeable our boundaries can and should be.
• Imposter Syndrome
  • Some people are immune :)
• 🧰 Acceptance and Commitment Therapy/Values
• 🧰 Healthy Narcissism
  • We’re fans of the Psychiatry and Psychotherapy podcast, and they do a nice episode on healthy narcissism, to include its adaptive aspects
• Positive stress (“Eustress”)
• Freud’s psychoanalytic approach
  • There’s a lot to cover with Freud, including the concepts of transference/countertransference, which we refer to in the episode
• Loneliness Epidemic: The surgeon general declared this a public health issue in 2023
• Community Episode: We’re planning this for episode 4, released August 5th!
• 🧰 Internal Family Systems (IFS) / “parts theory”
• 🧰 Humor as Defense
• Opus No. 1

Transcript

Recurring Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:05

I'm Sarah. I'm Kyle.

SPEAKER_05 0:08

And I'm Jeremy.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

We're three psychiatrists, military vets, and friends, and it's just shrinking America, where we put America on the couch.

Episode 0.125 Introduction

SPEAKER_05 0:23

Hello America, and welcome to episode. I don't know what we're calling this, maybe 0.125. It's a somewhat impromptu addition to our prequel series where we decided to turn the psychiatric lens on ourselves. We noticed in our text thread we were all having interesting reactions about finally putting our work out into the world, or at least into the ears of you wonderful people. The only logical next step was to put ourselves on the couch and let the shrinking begin. This process brought up some interesting themes around narcissism, imposter syndrome, and inadequacy. Yes, shrinks work through all of that too. So join us as we explore our thoughts and feelings surrounding the soft launch in real time. Because in psychiatry, it's all grist for the mill. And sometimes we also need our own time on the couch.

The Big Launch and 40 New Listeners!

SPEAKER_04 1:26

My immediate was like, oh no, oh no, as people are like responding or giving us ideas of like uh too much. I'm not listening.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Okay, great. Let's dive in, let's let's set this aside. This is what I want to hear, Jeremy. Tell us how you felt about us actually going live-ish.

SPEAKER_05 1:47

Um

Jaremy's Launch Ruminations

SPEAKER_05 1:48

you know, it was funny. Nate was asking me, he was like, Are are you excited about this? And I don't know that I could fully let myself be in the excitement of it because uh immediately some of the worries started coming up for me, like, okay, um, do we need to spend more time editing some of these episodes? I think I probably got a critical eye on it really quickly. And um I'll just say it because we're doing like like psychology in this. So my worry was like, did we try to do this too quickly? Did we put it out before it was fully ready? Um and then it became uh uh now. My biggest thing for myself was like, I was like, oh my gosh, I've got to be so mindful about the words that I use or what I say. I've got to become so mindful about my speech because people are saying back exact things that I said, and I'm like, I was not that like conscious at times when I said some of these things. And so that that made me a little nervous and excited because it's like one, just in my own world, I love a challenge to be more mindful and aware, and so this is a great way to become more mindful and aware of my own speech, and at the same time feeling like it is a little anxiety-provoking that what if I say something that's offensive? You know, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, I don't want them to come back and hurt my feelings. So um it it's it's like, yeah, we're putting something out there now for people to judge and determine, you know, if they like it, if they don't, what they like and what they don't. It's it's a vulnerable process.

SPEAKER_03 3:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:34

And so cool and exciting too. Some of the positive feedback, I was like, wow, this really is hitting like what we had really hoped it would. Yeah. And maybe it was good enough the way we put it out. How about that?

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Aaron had some feedback that very much uh targets your mindfulness piece. Have you thought about the balance between the like be mindful, be very thoughtful about everything you say, and the power of spontaneity and authenticity and just going for it? Because that is kind of that is also therapy is making mistakes and working through them and I I I have a specific example on that too.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

Um but Jer Jeremy, answer first and I'll just pin that.

SPEAKER_05 4:20

I I no, I would say probably my mind frame went more to the anxiety of it. Um, so I appreciate that bringing back to the balance of because some of what came out of it like we we weren't even planning that there would have been this spontaneity around the fact that like we all have very different experiences and views on space, and that was what was kind of cool is that people were tuning into those different parts of it. And I mean, I had people that told me they listened to the episode more than once, like that was a cool um

Reflections on Feedback and Growth

SPEAKER_05 4:55

piece, and and yeah, that was really, really neat feedback.

SPEAKER_03 4:59

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 5:00

Because they identified with something there, and it was because I think of that authenticity, that spontaneity around you know, we're just telling how we really feel about and think about something.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

But with a thoughtful, I mean, this has always been our intent is to say, huh, something about our training got us to think a little bit more deeply than we did before we started, and so even our authenticity and spontaneity includes a bit of introspection and reflection, and it just it maybe is a little bit broader than it would have been 10 years ago when we were early in this process. Kyle, what did you pin? Oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_05 5:37

Sorry, one last thought. It's the power of like it's also sitting with wow, people would actually be interested in my what I think about something or what I have to say about it, you know, like that's that's also really surprising, overwhelming, exciting because you uh none of us are super egoistic in that way, where it's like we would walk into this going, oh yeah, people are gonna want to know my thoughts around. You know, like that that's just none of our natural inclinations. Yeah. Um, and although Kyle's face right now. I love this.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Oh my god, it's almost like you're a psychiatrist while she's observing me.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

Noticing someday we'll do video and this will be really fun to bring a G vanna into everything.

SPEAKER_05 6:29

I don't know. It feels like you're like embodying this, like, yeah, I've got something to offer, you know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 6:35

That's what I'm saying I'm gonna pin that because I had some similar thoughts when we put the episode out. I'll come back to it. Kyle, what was your pin?

Kyle's Imposter Syndrome Reflections

SPEAKER_02 6:43

Oh, you think I disagree, and then I definitely think we have something to offer, which is true, but that's that's kind of actually where my thoughts are is just how much it's like a new challenge for um that ever present, but like somewhat often, you know, when I'm able to contain that imposter syndrome monster, you know. I think that was really present during a lot of residency because there's just a lot of change, you know, you're just constantly in a new environment. Yeah. Um but I think with with all of that, med school residency, so much of it is just that that battle of um thinking you have to know it all, um, and being on. And so it's like a new level of being on. And I the specific example that I like had to sort of metabolize was I brought up the overview effect. And then at one point in the in the podcast, I called it the overton. And then Jeremy called it the overtones. Yes, exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 7:55

And then I was like, oh man, like I wanted to edit it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 7:59

And then I'm like, and that, and then I was thinking about it, like, okay, like how do I have to prepare for these sessions, like to be on in the same way that we prepare for our patients, and then like how much looking through the chart is good enough? How much um do I have to do a mindfulness session so I'm present and aware and not thinking about the next patient or not thinking about you know all of these other things so that I don't do things like call the overview effect the Overton window or whatever. Um I kind of this is also just me know like correcting that.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

So many layers, Kyle, well done.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

And then insight into your correction at the um, but yeah, I mean, of course, I think that's the the biggest thing for me is just kind of thinking about it in the the lens of of imposter syndrome and and and like we're talking about the the ego of this all. And I think imposter syndrome is so related to um yeah, do we are we are we good enough? Am I being found out as this imposter? Um, you know, when I think in our best selves was just like remove yourself from it more and just do you know, enjoy the process.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Um, so I think it's a good challenge of that.

Sarah's Fear of An Audience

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Am I gonna share? I'll share my experience. It's some it's somewhere between. Well, it's it probably is closer to Jeremy. I immediately was like, what are we doing and why are we doing this? Like interesting having had so much fun in the process, and then the minute it became public being like, I don't want this, I don't want attention and not knowing because that's been a whole life thing. Is that just pure introversion? Is that some anxiety about judgment that is not super conscious? Probably a little bit, but I don't I didn't listen to the episode and think like of course, I I think we all pay attention to what did I say, what did I miss say? Was I being too judgmental, was I not? But it didn't feel overbearing the times I listened to it. So I I really reflected a lot on why what is it about being seen, I guess, because that this is a way of being seen, like you said, Kyle, putting ourselves out into the world and having people, you said Jeremy, potentially judge it. That really immediately I was like, this is not fun anymore. I don't, this is not what I wanted to do. And then being scared, Kyle, because you were, we've already agreed, like you do social media, I don't want any part of it. Being like, what if Kyle wants this to be way bigger than I do? And I'm not comfortable with that, and I don't care about social media, and I don't want a ton of feedback, and I don't want you you have mentioned, I think the most of the three of us, what if this gets big? And I'm like, I don't think I want it to be big. Like, I don't I want to sort of be, I don't know, it's it's a dissonance between what thinking we do have a little bit to offer and our ideas might inspire people, but also not really wanting to be public or be known. I don't know how to quite put all that together. Uh anyway, that was my reaction. And it was interesting to think about oh my gosh, the team dynamic of Jeremy might want this and I might want that, and Kyle might want this. Um, which is part of what makes the podcast cool, is we all have different perspectives, different personalities, and we're kind of sharing those and working through them. But it also was like, wait, what if we're not on the same page about where this is headed? What kind of conflict might that bring up? That's probably conflict avoidance, which I know about myself. Um Yeah. I think that was my big I think there was more in the moment. I had quite a few

Kyle Works With Narcissism

SPEAKER_00 11:29

reactions, but it's so interesting.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

I'm like a little bit stuck on your pointing out if I I've been the one to say, what if this gets big? And then I'm like, you know, I I'm always at this constant struggle, as I just kind of alluded to, like with my own narcissism. And it's like, is Sarah picking up that I'm a narcissist who wants a podcast to go viral or whatever, you know, and so I'm of course like now like introspecting on that. Um and and I think I do like guard against that too by like self-deprecating and making jokes like um like the the very fact that we're having this discussion, um, you know, and like thinking about how people are responding when when it's still a pretty small circle, you know? Yeah, it's pretty small, pretty small.

SPEAKER_05 12:31

Although these are people that matter in our lives too that are responding right now. So it it honestly is a little different than you know, my posturing if it's someone that I don't know at all.

Self-Disclosure and How Patients Might View Us

SPEAKER_02 12:44

Have you guys thought about this was a little bit to my earlier point as well? When I make mistakes like the overview overton error. What that does in terms of like if patients are listening to this? Aaron's how that yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

He didn't bring it up about the over overview overturn, but he's like, what do you think what how might this affect how your patients view you? What if they listen to this? And like, well, there are only like 50 people have listened, so we're probably good for now. But yeah, it's a great question.

SPEAKER_05 13:18

See, but that's that's also a posturing of like you it's a worry that they're not gonna like or it's gonna change the light they see you in, which of course this will. I mean, we're putting something out there where they're I I I make sure in my life that um like in my office, I don't have a lot of personal pictures, anything like that, so that I can be more of the blank slate that Freud, you know, talked about. This takes that away in some in some interesting fashion. Um, but I I'm leaning into that that I like, I really kind of like it. Like I think it will help patients who feel connected to me and my way of thinking to find me.

SPEAKER_03 14:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:03

Um, whereas vice versa, you know, we clearly all have very different ways of thinking. And that's how your relationship with your site, any psychiatrist is going to be.

SPEAKER_03 14:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:11

The nice thing for patients too is like I have so many patients that have to shop around and try to find someone they connect with.

Embracing Mistakes and Authenticity

SPEAKER_05 14:17

And it's like if they listen to a podcast and automatically found someone, cool. Like, go go do an intake with them, see if you can um connect and and have them really come up with a personalized treatment plan for you. I also, Kyle, like I'm kind of leaning into I love the making a mistake because it just it shows like we're human, you know, like we're doing the best we can here. We have other jobs, like, you know, none of us, this is not our area of research. Like, we're not, you know, like this. This is we're not gonna be perfect at this. Um, and we're just trying to present some ideas, and sometimes we'll fumble in the way that we say them. Sorry. Sorry, not sorry.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

But I love how you're you're reassuring her when what you led with was your own anxiety about whether you're saying the right things, like we are so much better at as we all are, right? Like comforting the other person, being like, Don't worry, it's cool, that's great you made a mistake.

SPEAKER_05 15:13

But then for ourselves, we're like, What you you're like this conversation is bringing that out in me. Like, I I initially, when it was me alone, and maybe this goes to our community episode, when it was me alone was very judgmental initially. What happened? I listened to our podcast in the background while I was doing other things, which is how I always listen to podcasts. So I didn't even notice the the I don't even know which effect it is overview, overtend. Does it matter?

SPEAKER_03 15:42

Does it matter?

SPEAKER_05 15:43

What what mattered was the idea that you were bringing up, which you know people got. And that's that's where we're like, I think we also need to remember where we're experts, and we're experts in what we're doing right now, which is finding the in the moment insights and information, not the presentation on the overview effect, right?

SPEAKER_02 16:06

Like, well, and in having conversations and in listening to each other. Um, see, you were listening so well that you adopted my error when I caught it.

SPEAKER_05 16:18

Exactly. I I can't even say it the other way now.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

And like, Kyle, seriously, it's it's so interesting that you say imposter syndrome, and like Jeremy says mistakes are important, and like that's how how much of our culture is struggling with imposter syndrome and not good enough and not worthy, and like to go out there and confront your own imposter syndrome by making a mistake on a podcast. And wow, the Harvard trained psychiatrist is is like she makes mistakes too and she rolls with it.

SPEAKER_02 16:45

Like that's a we're two for two on on uh identifying I went to Harvard. I know, right? That's what I'm here for.

SPEAKER_05 16:53

I'm still trying to get in, so we might be three for three someday.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

I I didn't I didn't

Differing Motivations and Values

SPEAKER_00 17:00

um I I want to comfort your your like concerns about narcissism because um Yes, can we please go back to that?

SPEAKER_04 17:06

Because it's like a gold mine.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

That is not what I was taking away. It was really more an extrovert-introvert thing and like social media versus not, like putting yourself out there and the the having fun with being seen. Uh it didn't make me feel like oh, Kyle, Kyle is arrogant, Kyle's a narcissist, Kyle wants it. It was just more like, oh shoot, Kyle may may this may be what she gets out of it, at least in part more than me. There's something there's something, and I've thought about this my whole life. What drives me, it's like the challenge of the learning and the product production. It's not the competition with other people, exactly. Not that not competing with others, not necessarily getting recognized. It's just like I like learning how to do stuff, I like creating something excellent, I like like learning is maybe the highest value, oh not the highest, but pretty high. Um, so thinking about that and thinking, oh, but for Kyle, like sharing this, being a leader, like connecting, connecting, that's very much a part of you. And that if it goes to a bigger level than I'm comfortable with, might make me uncomfortable. And so thinking, oh gosh, we're on this team together. How do we align? Um, or how do I really go go with it? We're making a darn podcast. Like if it gets if we get publicity, that's appropriate. And I gotta make myself work through that.

SPEAKER_02 18:15

So that was more that kind of right. I kind of love though, too, that like you're not on social media, and and it's fun to kind of like share on our thread and everything, though, some of it. Um, but I think to me that this is the most exciting part about this whole process is our dynamic. It's not surprising given what we just said, right? Like the connections between us and all of that. Um and and other people tuning into our dynamic and learning

The Dynamics of Team Collaboration

SPEAKER_02 18:44

from how we talk to each other, exactly. Identifying with you know, each of us at different points, uh, how alike-minded we are in different ways. But then when we do challenge each other, um like when you just called me a narcissist, and I was like, Sarah, why?

SPEAKER_00 19:01

And I'm like, oh my god, Kyle, you're not a narcissist. You're like the best. I just want to make you comfortable and avoid why do you think so?

SPEAKER_05 19:10

I want to go back to your initial look that I was uh honing in on. Um, I think that was what I was getting from you was this struggle that you're mentioning now between the narcissism of do I have I do have something to offer? I I want to get it out there, I want to connect with people, and I struggle with am I good enough to do it as I'm figuring this out? Like it it really is a powerful notion that so many of us we all deal with. Like, what is healthy narcissism, right? Like, yeah, when when is this something that helps us to to trust ourselves enough to put out our thoughts and our words and for people to judge, you know, and and also learn from and also enjoy. And it it's funny that we keep mentioning the judgment because that's not all people were doing with the words and the ideas, or at least that I keep mentioning the judgment. It's also making me think of like the way that we initially responded to this stressor in our lives, and and I say stressor also in a positive way, like it it was it was difficult stress, but also enjoyable stress. Um kind of shows like where each of our own I don't know if I want to say diagnoses, but inclinations goes, you know, like that. My initial would be very like critical. Did we do this too soon? Like, well, there's my anxiety OCD popping out, you know, which I know is a lens that I see a lot of the world through. Yeah. Um, so it was really interesting to see those lenses pop up for each of us as we encountered this quote unquote stressor.

SPEAKER_02 20:53

Yes. Each of our tisms, isms.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

Yeah. I've put a couple things for the for the toolkit, Kyle. Uh healthy narcissism, definitely where my head went to, Jeremy. Positive stress, values, authenticity, impossible imposter syndrome, I feel like is going to be such a big one. Yeah for this. Um I wanted to mention self-disclosure because Jeremy, you kind of touched on that. And this isn't it's a thing I don't think people realize we think a lot about in our uh field, is how much we think about what we share or don't share. And also like how we at our uh in our generation of psychiatrists might view that as changing compared to the traditional psychoanalysis. Like, is there more of which was extremely, like you said, totally blank screen?

SPEAKER_05 21:37

Um which is even an interesting conversation because Freud himself, like if you look back in the history, he didn't really do that. Like, I mean, he took patients to dinners. He like there's there's accounts of there actually being touch occurring, which you know, the the field went so far away from we don't touch patients, we're we're that blank slate, you know, and it's like

SPEAKER_02 22:00

I've been giving more hugs.

SPEAKER_05 22:03

Oh, that's cool.

SPEAKER_02 22:04

Yeah. I mean ninety percent of my patients are men and that loneliness epidemic is a huge part of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:12

And community episode, hashtag.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

Yeah. Plug, teaser, Easter egg.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

Um but yeah, I mean, and then I I do think about the risk of that and what they're attaching to me and all of that. But it just sometimes you do have to, I mean, speaking of judgment, you kind of just have to go with your clinical instinct and judgment. And it's like I do think this is what this person needs, you know, right now.

unknown 22:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:38

Especially if they've been experiencing loss.

Evolving Boundaries in Therapeutic Relationships

SPEAKER_00 22:41

And it is it's it's exactly it. It's like, is our is are are we changing as providers? Is our culture changing? And that that is the therapeutic need right now is for more human connection, more honesty, more authenticity, more hugs, perhaps. Um and also we we sit, I think we set really strict, strict boundaries for a good reason, right? Like such a potential for abuse in our field given the emotional intimacy. But can we acknowledge maybe we can operate in the gray? Maybe we can set I don't want to say fluid, but what is it, boundary crossing versus boundary violation? Like maybe we can give ourselves a little bit more credit that we can judge when it's appropriate and actually therapeutic to to have a picture up or to discuss our perspective on something. I definitely I think we should talk more about this at a future. Yeah, boundaries episode. Yeah, and like when we have when we have changed our boundaries for certain people, when you have hugged someone and what prompted you to do that, when we've shared about our own X, Y, or Z situation that we thought might be helpful. Um can I go?

SPEAKER_05 23:41

Yeah, and we can go on.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

Just real quick on that, the political political boundaries, like how boundaries around politics in relationships, I think would be a really interesting episode. Um and how that's changed over time. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 24:01

I'm still um full disclosure. I feel like I say that a lot. Um, I did say that a lot in the Artemis episode, which I noticed, and now I'm noticing uh that I say that a lot.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

Um Kyle and I are just like laughing, like holding back visuals.

SPEAKER_05 24:21

Go. I'm still like I I feel like I'm like a step off sometimes because I get like stuck on these things and then I I'm still thinking about them while you all are like jiving with each other and moving forward. Um, I want to go back though, still with the narcissism piece because so my what I was still feeling too in this whole like did we do this too soon is it feels like you two are really pushing to get out of this and it didn't me specifically. No, it was actually Sarah. That's what's interesting to me is we focused in on you there. But like Sarah, when I think back to the first episode, you were the one that was like, nope, we're recording now. Uh what are we doing here? Like you asked the initial question that starts this whole podcast. And then also it was this drive of like, I was saying, like, okay, do we this has been my my MO the whole time? Like, let's just have fun with it, like slow down. Like, do we really need to get it out May 4th? Like, I which you know, part of it is my own defense, let's be honest, right? The other part of it is I really do want to enjoy this process and not feel like there's a lot of pressure around it, yeah. Uh, because that also creates anxiety for me. But you know, Sarah, part of your reaction when I was like, hey, do we need to do this on May 4th? And Sarah was like, Yeah, I really want to honor this, let's go. Um Yeah. So Sarah, what what's going on in your mind around around this? I'm interested. Like where um because I part of can I just say part of what I love about it? Sorry, I turned it over to you and then took it back. Um there there's this interesting dichotomy to you where you were this just like aviator in the army.

SPEAKER_03 26:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 26:03

And then, but you're this just like very calm, empathetic, you know, just unassuming is unassuming the word I want to use.

SPEAKER_04 26:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 26:12

Uh person at times where it it's like it's people, I want to understand that in you. And I love when I see that drive come out that's like, oh, that must have been what she was like as an aviator in the army, you know, like

Sarah 's Thoughts on Parts

SPEAKER_05 26:26

I definitely lead with the the and I think my vast majority of my time is in the the sort of like calm water sign, just sort of uh fluid state.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Um and I do, I know I I don't know if it's um I I read and respond to people and like push pull a lot based on the the energy underneath. So I really, really Kyle felt really motivated to do this and I was like, I really want to go with that. Like Kyle cares about this. This is important. I and I agree with her. Um, Jeremy, I think I I think in the group, if there is like a little bit of I I lean into let's get it done. Like I very much am gonna play the part that needs to be played, either for me or for the group. So when that first episode, it was like, what are we doing, guys? Like literally, what are we doing? Why are we dancing around this? We have like it's time to put the anxiety aside and just act. So that absolutely comes out. And I I truly don't know. I think about it a lot. Like, how how do I move between the two? It definitely is a reaction to environment and to other people's energy, and also maybe my own reaction to the tendency that I could have to lean into anxiety and the part of me that's like, don't think about it. Kind of like the astronaut thing, don't think about it, just do it. Right? Like, you know, you can do this, so just do it. Um, don't wait too long. But I don't know. It's it's thank you for observing that because it's a thing that I try to figure out a lot when I'm in different parts. We should talk about IFS at some point. It really is a representation of different parts and the part of me that's like flying helicopters and wants to um is very, very intense. But that's only that's only a sometimes part.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

Um I wondered if you're gonna take it there, Sarah. And I was like, I'm probably just projecting really hard on Sarah right now because again, we align so well on so many things. Yes, um, that I it's easy for me to project on you, but I think that for me my default from my upbringing is achiever, is drive, you know, get the get the shiny things because then you get the accolades and the praise and whatever. And then I wondered if you know that's the essentially you at some point had a big realization about that uh burnout or whatever. For sure. And that's when you started your your toolkit of non-striving, of Buddhism and Zen, and you know, the so you see that part of Sarah, um, who also exists. And you can kind of uh you know enact either part as you need to. Now, I think you've probably exerted more self-control and and can channel either of those when you need to.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

Maybe that's a that's a very um I think both are pretty balanced. Uh we can talk about daddy issues sometime, Kyle, because the striver achiever was definitely reinforced in my upbringing. But the part of me that was quiet, introspective, philosophically minded is definitely who I was, much more at my baseline, much, much more shy as a kid, but still had the intensity and drive that was then fostered, that was then drove 10 years of my life to try to prove something to daddy or to whatever. But also there's a part of me that loved the challenge. And then exactly, yes, there was like a point of what is this costing? Why am I doing this? This isn't even the entirety of who I am. So why am I leaning so hard? Um, and coming kind of back around to who I was before my teens when it was told this is the path to take, as opposed to that one. So very well interpreted. And this is why you and I both were like, let's get it on the forward. This is why you and I both aviation. This is why like we definitely have that intensity and that

Psychiatric Vibes

SPEAKER_00 30:11

drive and just get get it done side. Um, not that you don't, Jeremy, but like I she and I, I I definitely feel like we vibrate with that energy.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

Oh, I was well, and to bring it back to to Jeremy too, it is so interesting to me that that, like you said, your vibe more has been, and by the way, vibe is now like the way psychiatrists talk. We just talk about vibes. It's about where our science is at. It's like clinical parlance. No.

SPEAKER_05 30:39

If you want to treat Gen Z, you need to talk about vibes. No, learn the lingo.

SPEAKER_02 30:44

Yeah. Um, but yeah, your vibe has been more like, hey, like, we don't need to worry about this. We're just trying to have fun, lean into what is exciting you, which is wonderful. Um, and so it is interesting that with that mentality though, like sort of a low stakes mentality, that when we're just like, well, let's just put it out there then.

SPEAKER_05 31:04

You're like, Well, no, no, not fun anymore.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

Like I'm saying too, right?

SPEAKER_05 31:11

Well, and to be honest, it's it's um, it's kind of what I it's what I love about this dynamic and this balance with you too, is that like I really there's a part of me that really likes that you pull me forward in that way. Um, and yes, it's scary for me, but I also like that it's two women that are taking kind of the power and control dynamic there. And it's it's me as the man that's like, uh, hold on, like too fast, too much. Um, I there's just so much in that dynamic. I also am, I I hope I don't remind any of you of your fathers. Oh god. Well, actually, I don't know if that's true because I I think there's some really wonderful aspects to your fathers. Um, there's parts to your fathers, but I also wonder if there is a response to me as a man sometimes, and if there's anything there with me, you know, holding back or pulling back, if there's kind of even a power control dynamic that that takes place there, and then it's like, nope, we're moving forward, let's go. It's like cool.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

That's interesting. Um have you felt that as the recipient? Is that like the counter-transference you've gotten from us when we've pushed a little bit?

SPEAKER_05 32:23

I no, I don't that I don't feel like that that's where it's coming from. I was just wondering as you were talking about um relationships with your fathers and how that that may have been some of the drivers for the achievement, get things done. Yeah, what it feels more like to me from a counter-transference standpoint is I don't want to sit in this anymore. Let's go. Like I don't want to sit in this anxiety, this unsurety, make a decision, move.

SPEAKER_02 32:46

Yeah.

The Symbolism of Opus No. 1

SPEAKER_02 32:47

Oh my gosh, can I take this moment? Because I think that is the beautiful segue to our our theme music. Okay, yes, we should wrap this up, right? Like that, I feel like we're yeah. But but sitting in that uncertainty, sitting in that limbo, yeah, I I think is such a key reason why people are struggling so hard right now. Um, and why I do think it's so beautiful that our theme song, which we just have happened to have chosen, because we all have this background with it, so it's Opus One. Um, Tim Carleton's the main composer. He wrote it with someone else. I don't have his name right now. We'll put in the show notes. Um, but it is it became the hold music for most healthcare systems. Um and so our theme music is that. Um, we got the rights from or the get permission from Tim Carlton to use it after emailing him and asking him. Um, because it's such a yeah, it's a huge part of our our background together, our bonding together as residents, being on hold in the um psychiatrist on duty room or um, you know, whatever. And we would we made a dance to it on our um what was it? Our graduation night. What did we call that night?

SPEAKER_05 34:12

Do you remember Jeremy? Uh con no, convocation. Award?

SPEAKER_02 34:18

I don't know. We gave out some awards.

SPEAKER_05 34:20

Make up words.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

I remember we dressed up as hunger games.

SPEAKER_04 34:23

Overton. Overt.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

Overton window.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

Tell your brain to switch to award. I'm just gonna draw on to the name.

SPEAKER_05 34:32

Also a great way to deal with when we make mistakes is humor.

SPEAKER_02 34:36

Yeah, very mature to wind up the time. But it just seems so meta-fitting. I know you don't like that word, Sarah. We'll cut it out. I like it as a theory. I don't like what it means.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

We're taking it back, Sarah. Take it back.

SPEAKER_02 34:55

Um that America is on hold right now. The world is on hold in a lot of ways. We're in this weird transient period of is the apocalypse actually coming or not? Because this AI acceleration and this singularity seems looming. I mean, um, and we're just kind of all sitting here making hold music dances. Yeah, to try and cope with what the hell is happening. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Um I don't that's my thoughts. Beautiful,

Navigating Change: Awareness and Acceptance

SPEAKER_00 35:28

yeah, beautifully described. Um, is that where we're gonna finish, Kyle?

SPEAKER_05 35:32

I have so many other things I'm thinking about now, like you know, what my my life view is life is always changing, so now I'm sitting here going, like, are we really on hold or are we just not truly aware of the small changes that are happening and not tuning in? Um is it okay to be on hold at some times, like not putting the podcast out on May 4th?

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Um it's it's done, Jeremy. Like we did before the thing is done. There's no going back.

SPEAKER_04 36:03

Can we take it back? No, I'm just kidding. I don't want to take

Control and Agency in a Changing World

SPEAKER_04 36:06

it back.

SPEAKER_02 36:06

I think I I didn't want to close though without saying, like yeah, it the hold music stuff really does bring up the dialectic to me. And I do think that that will be that will be our most cited toolkit item. And I think that's ultimately what we are hoping this podcast will keep getting to is that helping to determine when when do you act, when do you sit with it? Yeah, when do you use distress tolerance and our coping skills and humor and make a dance because you can't do anything about it because you know, and and so much of it will do with what do we actually have control over?

SPEAKER_00 36:53

There it there it is. And I think that's exactly Jeremy. When you were saying how much is changing, this more than any time, I think, in our lives, it's felt like someone else has control over where this is going. Yes, there are little shifts, yes, there are ways we can manage our own small sphere, and that's probably what we need to do. But it's very apparent to us we do not have control over a lot of things. Some of the facade of yeah, I make my life is like fallen away, and that's what whole music is, right? You're like, I'm waiting for someone else to answer the phone, and I'm just sitting here twiddling my thumbs, seeing if I can multitask. I mean, so that I mean, Kyle, just such a perfect metaphor for um what makes this a little bit different than yes, there are things changing, yes, things are shifting, yes, things are never fully static, but it does feel like other people are running the show or things. AI. Is AI a person yet? Um it's really well said. Q opus one. Is that it? Are we done? That's it. We're calling it okay. Rat, yeah.

Podcast Disclaimer and Outro

SPEAKER_02 43:31

This podcast is for educational, informational, and sometimes entertainment purposes only, and is not a substitute for professional medical care. Nothing in this podcast constitutes medical or mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment, nor does it establish a doctor patient relationship. If you are seeking personal medical or mental health care, please consult a qualified health professional. If you are in crisis, including thoughts of suicide or harming yourself or others, please contact local emergency services or a crisis. You've been listening to Shrinking America, a good enough podcast for our times.